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-   -   Winnie's loss of total bladder control is back. (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=70354)

cpietra16 May 20th, 2010 01:06 PM

Winnie's loss of total bladder control is back.
 
Now, I am seeing a vet, but I want to have a preview of what may be the problem...so for those who have had this experience, please enlighten me.
Winnie is a 12 year old lab, who still loves to eat, drink and be merry...but
she pees ...just lays their sleeping, gets up and her tail her fur, the bed all very wet. Now we had that problem a few moths ago when she was on steroids...but she is not ont hem now and has not been on them since...she is talking her glucosimine, shark cartilege, adn 1/2 pill ( 100mgs) every other day....any ideas why she keeps on weeting herself...She doesn't even notice until she gets up:(

Dog Dancer May 20th, 2010 01:18 PM

Cpietra, I sure hope Winnie's incontinence is just age related, which is entirely possible. The vet will probably want to do blood of course to rule other things out. Then he will likely prescribe Stilbesterol pills. They are basically estrogen. While they are not good for long term use on a daily basis due to the risk I believe of liver or kidney damage (can't remember which), with an older dog it's not really a problem. My 13 year old Shadow is on them now, she takes one pill per week and it has really helped. Our vet has suggested a urine test to ensure that no urine has leaked back and caused any infection, but I haven't done that one yet. Next visit. Hope this is all that's wrong with Winnie, it's an easy and inexpensive fix.

14+kitties May 20th, 2010 01:19 PM

I'll be paying attention to this as well because Sammy is doing the same thing. She will be going to the vet as soon as hubby makes an appt for her. Same age, labx, doesn't know she's peed till after she's awake. She won't stay on a bed so she pees in different areas of the house. :yuck: I have limited her water intake at night but it doesn't always help. I think she gets into such a deep sleep (age related) that she doesn't know she's peeing. :(

Dog Dancer May 20th, 2010 01:26 PM

14+ urinating in their sleep is often a sign of low estrogen due to their age. That is what triggered us to get Shadow back on her pills. She's been doing this for years, but we treat her for about six months (the first week they take one pill a day to load up the estrogen and then after that one pill a week to see if that's sufficient) then after the six months we let it go again until she starts to leak. It's always important to rule other issues out, but like I said, this is very common especially in spayed females which we have alot of here :thumbs up.

ancientgirl May 20th, 2010 01:39 PM

:pray:I hope the vet is able to help Winnie out. Maybe it's the same issue DD's Shadow.

Maybe you can get them doggy diapers:shrug: That way they won't feel uncomfortable when they wake up with pee on them.

14+kitties May 20th, 2010 01:41 PM

Thanks DD. I figure it's age related as well. It was with my other girl. Nice to know there's pills for it. Was never offered any for Tasha. :( Just have to wait for hubby to get her to her vet. She's "his" dog from before I moved here.:rolleyes:

cpietra16 May 20th, 2010 01:56 PM

thank you for all your info..I knew it was age related, but I just wasn;t sure what the cause was? If it is treatable with estrogen, then I feel better. I will keep you posted.

Frenchy May 20th, 2010 03:40 PM

Same here , I would say it's incontinence.

When you're dealing with UTI , cushings disease , addison etc... dogs pee more but can hold it , well , a bit anyway. They will never pee in their sleep. When they do , it's incontinence.

If they can't treat it with meds , you could use diapers.

cpietra16 May 20th, 2010 04:24 PM

Diapers are an option. Funny, my kids get out of diapers just time for my dog to get into them...oh well...such is life.
I am seeing the vet tomorrow at 7:30am ..so I will have a better picture.

What is worring me is that her bum looks so raw and with the heat it must not be comfortable. I also find that her urine smell is very very strong and almost rancid..:yuck:

Dog Dancer May 20th, 2010 04:47 PM

Why is her bum raw?? Is she licking herself because of the urine leakage?? Shadow will lick like crazy when she notices she's leaking, but it's not a continual thing. Also, once she was back on the pills there was no thought of needing diapers so I wouldn't worry too much about that yet.

JanM May 20th, 2010 05:46 PM

Bobby's incontinence is periodic but his is not age-related. The best treatments for his incontinence have been acupuncture and another energy medicine called Animal Talk - both have given him immediate relief from it. When he does get incontinent, the first thing I do is get the insides of his back legs shaved so the urine doesn't mat, itch him and stink...

Good luck!

Myka May 20th, 2010 06:01 PM

Sorry I am off topic, but are you feeding your dog shark cartilage for arthritis or joint disease or just as a dietary supplement? Are you aware of how many sharks die a slow, painful, and cruel death just for the harvesting of their fins? Are you aware of the practise involved in harvesting the cartilage? It is a very disgusting, inhumane, and barbaric practise. The sharks have their fins cut off while they are alive, and thrown back into the ocean to die a slow painful death. There are many products on the market that you could use instead of shark cartilage, I would urge you (as an obvious animal lover) to reconsider the purchase of shark cartilage. I know your concerns obviously lie in helping your dog's continence at this time, and I would ask you to please take a look at alternative supplements when you have resolved the incontinence troubles.

In the meantime, I hope you can find some answers for your dog's incontinence. Sending :goodvibes: and :fingerscr

[quote]About 100 million sharks are killed each year by humans. Over the past 15 years we've depleted some shark populations by 80 to 90 percent, leaving great whites, hammerheads, and many others on the brink of extinction.

Sharks are being hunted because one pound of dried shark fin can be sold for as much as $300, as it is considered a delicacy by some Asian populations. Others feel sharks are dangerous and should be killed, and some people like the "sport" of catching sharks. Another threat to sharks is they can be accidentally caught by longline fishing, which also catches dolphins, swordfish, and many other marine animals.

Shark cartilage has been touted as a cancer cure, often due to the inaccurate belief that sharks are immune to cancer, but there is no conclusive evidence that shark cartilage can treat cancers. Others believe that shark cartilage can help treat arthritis, but the jury is out on this one.[/quote]

[url]http://www.naturallysavvy.com/east-meets-west/shark-cartilage-for-tcm-is-often-cruelly-harvested[/url]

Frenchy May 20th, 2010 06:55 PM

[QUOTE=cpietra16;920080] I also find that her urine smell is very very strong and almost rancid..:yuck:[/QUOTE]

This tells me it may not only be incontinence.

cpietra16 May 20th, 2010 08:33 PM

[QUOTE=Myka;920098]Sorry I am off topic, but are you feeding your dog shark cartilage for arthritis or joint disease or just as a dietary supplement? Are you aware of how many sharks die a slow, painful, and cruel death just for the harvesting of their fins? Are you aware of the practise involved in harvesting the cartilage? It is a very disgusting, inhumane, and barbaric practise. The sharks have their fins cut off while they are alive, and thrown back into the ocean to die a slow painful death. There are many products on the market that you could use instead of shark cartilage, I would urge you (as an obvious animal lover) to reconsider the purchase of shark cartilage. I know your concerns obviously lie in helping your dog's continence at this time, and I would ask you to please take a look at alternative supplements when you have resolved the incontinence troubles.

In the meantime, I hope you can find some answers for your dog's incontinence. Sending :goodvibes: and :fingerscr



[url]http://www.naturallysavvy.com/east-meets-west/shark-cartilage-for-tcm-is-often-cruelly-harvested[/url][/QUOTE]

Yes I am aware of this, but when my friend told me she had a bottle that she was planning to throw out (her dog passed away) I told her not to waste them by throwing them out but that I would use them.
I have never used them before...I am a vegetarian and have been for 40 years...and I have never harmed an animal or bug, unless I stepped on an ant without noticing...and much more but I believe I am limited to what I can write...but your point has been recieved...thank you.

cpietra16 May 20th, 2010 08:35 PM

[QUOTE=JanM;920096]Bobby's incontinence is periodic but his is not age-related. The best treatments for his incontinence have been acupuncture and another energy medicine called Animal Talk - both have given him immediate relief from it. When he does get incontinent, the first thing I do is get the insides of his back legs shaved so the urine doesn't mat, itch him and stink...

Good luck![/QUOTE]

good idea...her fur is always wet and as much as I try to wash her...she keeps peeing:(. But I hope by tomorrow her problem will be solved...until another comes up:(

cpietra16 May 21st, 2010 07:53 AM

well we just got back and the vet thinks that it may be an infection because it has come on so sudden and usually incontinence comes on slowly. So, she is now on Cephalexin 500mg. 2 1/2 tablets morning and night. Her urine sample will be in later today.
If it is not an infection, then it may be a mass that is putting pressure on her bladder, but I will deal with that when the time comes...so poor Winnie may have to wear diapers until this settles down:(

pugsrule May 21st, 2010 08:31 AM

IF it is a UTI, the vet should have been able to see the bacteria under the microscope. They also usually use chemstrips which tell if there is infection, high ph etc. There is no guessing at whether there IS an infection, just which antibiotic to use, unless you get a culture and sensitivity test....then no guessing at all. Hope your vet is right, that is usually easy to clear up./

Frenchy May 21st, 2010 09:26 AM

[QUOTE=cpietra16;920214]well we just got back and the vet thinks that it may be an infection [/QUOTE]

I'm hoping that's just it ! :fingerscr speedy recovery Winnie :goodvibes:

[QUOTE=pugsrule;920219]IF it is a UTI, the vet should have been able to see the bacteria under the microscope. They also usually use chemstrips which tell if there is infection, high ph etc. There is no guessing at whether there IS an infection, just which antibiotic to use, unless you get a culture and sensitivity test....then no guessing at all. Hope your vet is right, that is usually easy to clear up./[/QUOTE]

Yes there is guessing. You have to start with clearing the infection first , and see it there isn't anything else after treatment. They can't start off by testing for cushings or addison before trying the UTI route. It much simpler this way. No point on paying thousands for the other tests , if it ends up just being a UTI. I know , I've been there with one of my guys.

Myka May 21st, 2010 09:35 AM

[QUOTE=cpietra16;920139]Yes I am aware of this, but when my friend told me she had a bottle that she was planning to throw out (her dog passed away) I told her not to waste them by throwing them out but that I would use them.
I have never used them before...I am a vegetarian and have been for 40 years...and I have never harmed an animal or bug, unless I stepped on an ant without noticing...and much more but I believe I am limited to what I can write...but your point has been recieved...thank you.[/QUOTE]

Ah, excellent. I would also not want to waste such a precious product. Thanks for not being defensive, I tried my best to not come off as being offensive...can be tough when using text.

:fingerscr that the vet is right, and your pup recovers quickly from the UTI.

Dog Dancer May 21st, 2010 09:46 AM

Glad to hear that with any luck Winnie's problem may just be a UTI. Hopefully that will clear everything up and there's no other issues to deal with.

hazelrunpack May 21st, 2010 01:59 PM

cpietra, we have 3 spayed females, all with spay incontinence. In all three cases, the onset was sudden. So if the antibiotics do not clear up the problem, it may still turn out to be spay incontinence. Sudden onset doesn't rule it out.

There are two different meds that can be tried for incontinence--one is the DES (estrogen) that has been mentioned, and the other is pheylpropanolamine (PPA). Because of the risks of long-term use of estrogens and the fact that the first two of our girls that became incontinent pretty much needed the meds every day with no breaks, we opted for the PPA. Belle has been on it for some 4 years with no problems.

I hope she's better soon :goodvibes: I know how worrisome it can be... :grouphug:

ScottieDog May 21st, 2010 02:26 PM

With one of my previous dogs, we faced recurrent UTIs, bladder cancer and kidney failure. I understand pee. I want to offer some tips to make Winnie's and your life more comfortable. If you choose to go the route of diapers, please change them very frequently and don't leave her in them all day. The diaper can actually trap bacteria and contribute to UTIs. I did use diapers occasionally with Tipper when she had massive infections and was urinating blood but only for a day or so until the antibiotics kicked in.

Find some waterproof baby changing pads or unfitted waterproof baby mattress covers. These will be soft and fuzzy/flocked on the top and bottom, but have a piece of plastic in between. Cover her bed or favorite sleeping spot with one of these, then top it with a soft towel or blanket. I unzipped Tipper's memory foam bed cover and put an additional one of these inside the bed over the foam. This is much easier to clean up. Just grab the pad and blanket and wash. The bed should stay dry.

I only dealt with true incontinence while Tipper was on strong pain medications following bladder surgery. I also used this method to protect the dog beds when my geriatric suffered an episode of vestibular disease. Both dogs would urinate in their sleep, but it was due to illness.

Enzymatic pet cleaners can really help keep your house smelling fresh. I used these in the wash with the urine-soaked bedding as well.

I tried to avoid frequent baths, but did use sensitive-skin, alcohol-free baby wipes to clean the fur. A microfiber face cloth with a gentle soap-free baby wash can also offer gentle cleaning. I wish you all the best. This is hard. If the antibiotics don't seem to help, ask for a urine culture to make sure you get the correct antibiotic. And it can take a long time to clear. My vet is great, but my dog had a raging, asymptomatic UTI that was diagnosed by a specialist on ultrasound. It took over 3 months on antibiotics to clear. She gave no physical indications of a UTI.

Dog Dancer May 21st, 2010 02:45 PM

Hazel, Shadow's incontinence was sudden onset also, but I didn't want to say anthing and contradict the vet. I agree that it could well still be an issue if the antibiotics don't work or it comes back.

2sheltiesmom May 21st, 2010 04:18 PM

Re: Loss of bladder control
 
I hope Winnie is fine. My nearly 13 yr. old Sheltie has the same problem and would get so embarrassed.:sorry: She would feel the wetness and jump up with her tail down. She too was treated with the Stilboestrol and is doing fine. Her dose was one for 5 days then one every 3rd day for several weeks then one once per week and it has worked very well. It happens to older females and I noticed it more when the Air Conditioning was on, dont know if that is related or not.
Also, I am vegetarian too, as are my dogs, so they take Recovery for joint health and arthritis. The Shark cartilage can cause allergic reaction. We were told the Flax oil in dogs does NOT work well; they would need a HUGE amount, so we do give them Omega 3.
Feel better soon Winnie!

cpietra16 May 21st, 2010 10:23 PM

Thank you all for your support. The results are in and Winnie definately has a very bad case of bladder infection. This does nto rule of incontence however, but we will see after her dose of antibiotics. Being a lab I think there aren't any diapers big enough so I will just keep washing the floor and washing her fur.
Her poor bottom was all raw mostly due from the heat and laying in her own urine...I feel so helpless right now. I feel for her...the vet shaved her so that it may prevent the urine from smelling..anyway I hope she will recover soon. She's is a remarkable dog...smelly as all h***:yuck: but remarkable.:rolleyes:

TeriM May 22nd, 2010 01:26 AM

Poor Winnie :(. Hopefully the antibiotics will work quickly and she will feel better soon :goodvibes:.

Perhaps some aloe vera gel will help soothe her sore skin. I have also had great results with a homeopathic lotion called Traumeel which is fine if they lick it. It has greatly helped soothe some cuts and scrapes on the dogs and I use it as well.

cpietra16 May 22nd, 2010 08:54 AM

yahhhhhhhh....Winnie, went through the whole night without a piddle....i am so freakin happy...the meds are obviously working and she is happy too:D

Love4himies May 22nd, 2010 08:59 AM

Wahoo! I am so relieved :thumbs up :highfive: :grouphug:. Sending some :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes: that she continues to get better.

Frenchy May 22nd, 2010 09:25 AM

[QUOTE=cpietra16;920563]yahhhhhhhh....Winnie, went through the whole night without a piddle....i am so freakin happy...the meds are obviously working and she is happy too:D[/QUOTE]

:thumbs up very happy to read this , hope hum little bum recovers fast also :goodvibes:

hazelrunpack May 23rd, 2010 08:00 PM

I'm so happy to hear she's doing better! :goodvibes: Yay, Winnie!!!! :dog:


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