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-   -   dog biting with growling (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=64869)

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 04:46 AM

dog biting with growling
 
My dog is almost 2 and since I moved a year ago and I wasn't able to bring him with me because my apartment doesn't allow dogs he has been getting really aggressive and biting my mom, but he doesn't have any behavior problems when I go to visit. Does anybody know how I can get him to stop biting my mom, he only bites her when he knows he has done something wrong and he's in trouble. We are at out wits end and don't know what to do and don't want to have to put him down because he bites someone really hard and breaks skin. We have tried a muzzle, but he behaves only until the muzzle is taken off. He usually bites her after he has peed in her room and knows she found out, so I know it's because he know's he's in trouble. He is a Silky Terrier and I read that they can be aggressive, but he is always barking and peeing on everything so as you can read from that, he has gotten in trouble a lot. Any advice on any of the problems would be much appreciated.

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 04:49 AM

Today he bit her because he was growling at my baby cousin and she told him to stop and went to take him outside and as soon as she touched him he bit her. He gets really nasty when he gets in trouble and bares his teeth and growls, I have never had a dog that does this before, so I don't know what to do.

brecker August 14th, 2009 07:11 AM

That dog wouldn't see another day if it was mine. But I'm sure most people will tell you to get some type of dog behaviorist to try to fix it. The dog is completely dominating your mom, and it needs to be reversed.

LavenderRott August 14th, 2009 08:40 AM

Brecker is partly right - this dog is running roughshod right over your mom.

First off - he needs to be confined to a crate or kitchen (or another room where he is close enough to watch but not touch) anytime she has company until this problem is taken care of. I highly recommend crating as this will help with the second thing.

Second - he loses all priveledges in her home. He should not be allowed on furniture and he is not allowed to run free in her house. Period. If your mother is doing something where she can not keep an eye on him - he needs to go in the crate.

Third - he needs to wear a leash in the house at all times for the time being. This will enable her to correct him without getting close enough to get bitten.

I strongly suggest that your mother take a basic obedience class with him.

BenMax August 14th, 2009 08:54 AM

If he is getting in trouble alot as you say,this would mean that he is being reprimanded somehow. What is the reprimand and how is this being done?

If you can advise on how the dog is being disciplined, this will be helpful. From there perhaps we can give you tips to pass to your mom on how to resolve this situation.

I disagree 100% with the attitude that the dog would not last another day. I truly believe you only come to that conclusion when all necessary measures are taken. It's easy to dispose, but it takes time and effort to do a process of elimination to try and instill harmony in this family. If all fails, then you need to consider options. To me, getting 'rid' of something is the very last resort.

Anyways - let us know what the reprimand is as this will be helpful information.

Bailey_ August 14th, 2009 10:52 AM

You've recieved good information already.

The only thing I want to add is that if someone tells you that your dog needs to be put down because its biting your Mom, they obviously don't realize that dogs are animals FIRST. They have been given teeth for a reason, and we as humans took the step to bring them into our homes.

Because of this, we need to remember that our dogs will act a certain way if we as owners have not been doing our job to train and understand them properly.

If we are bit, first and foremost - it is OUR fault. We have a serious responsibility to take the time to get our dog needed help and to learn how to properly handle our dogs so that this behavior does not continue.

Don't put your dog down, please have him assessed by a proffesional. This will help you and your Mom get the information and understanding needed to properly handle your dog in the future.

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 01:43 PM

He is usually confined to the kitchen but he whines and cries when he is in there, and then when he is let out he starts ruining everything, we have also done the crate, but when he can't be part of the action going on he will bark the whole time he is in there, I think sometimes she spanks him when he pees on stuff, but most of the time she just yells and picks him up and puts him out on the porch, where he scratches at the door and barks. Most of the time now she doesn't have to even do anything to him and if he has done something wrong even her just going to pet him makes him bite her. As I said, he doesn't act like this when I am visiting.

MyBirdIsEvil August 14th, 2009 05:44 PM

I hate to say this, but I think your mom has been a lot more physical with him than you're aware of....
I conclude this by the fact that the aggression is specifically toward your mother and you admit she has hit him before and been too rough with him physically.

Spanking him a couple of times for peeing (which shouldn't be done at all btw) shouldn't have made him show that much aggression toward her.
It sounds like she's hit him enough times that he's now fearful and aggressive towards her. This is not uncommon in animals that have been physically abused to any extent.
It will take a huge change in the way she interacts with him and probably professional intervention to correct the issue, and it could take a long time.

[QUOTE]That dog wouldn't see another day if it was mine. But I'm sure most people will tell you to get some type of dog behaviorist to try to fix it. The dog is completely dominating your mom, and it needs to be reversed.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. The dog may have a dominant personality but the aggression is being brought on by the overaggressive behavior of the human owner. When a human overreacts to something a dog does, especially physically, it can cause aggression.
This is ESPECIALLY true of small breeds like silky terriers that already may feel threatened by a huge person looming over them.

Now this dog thinks that every physical action the mom takes toward him is possibly going to cause pain or be punishment, so he reacts aggressively.

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 06:51 PM

That's what I was thinking, I let her know that she needs to start reacting a little differently so we will see if his behavior changes, I just hope that if he is not punished the way he has been in the past he will start behaving better and stop being so distructive. If anyone has any advice to get him to stop barking and peeing on everything it would be much appreciated. We did get him a shock collar and that seemed to work for a while, but now he just keeps going until the battery runs out and I'm afraid that it is hurting him and my mom said everytime she goes near his collar he will bite her. The shock collar is not adjustable in power, so he isn't biting because she turns it up, and I would like to get rid of the collar all together because it is really heavy and it doesn't really work, it just reminds him to stop once he has started.

Frenchy August 14th, 2009 07:15 PM

[QUOTE=Sammi028;813877]he only bites her when he knows he has done something wrong and he's in trouble.
[COLOR="Red"]First of all , I don't think your dog knows he has done something wrong ! [/COLOR]
We are at out wits end and don't know what to do and don't want to have to put him down because he bites someone really hard and breaks skin.
[COLOR="red"]the dog doesn't need to get put down , your mom needs to take training courses with him , or rehome him with someone who knows about dogs , sorry but , you and your mom are not reading the dog properly[/COLOR]
We have tried a muzzle, but he behaves only until the muzzle is taken off.
[COLOR="red"]a muzzle won't train a dog [/COLOR]
He usually bites her after he has peed in her room and knows she found out, [/QUOTE]
[COLOR="red"]this has to do with the way she corrects him , once she finds the pee , it's too late to do anything about it. She has to get him while he does it [/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Sammi028;813878]Today he bit her because he was growling at my baby cousin and she told him to stop and went to take him outside and as soon as she touched him he bit her. He gets really nasty when he gets in trouble and bares his teeth and growls, [/QUOTE]

Because he knows he'll get hit ?

Really , your mom would need to take him to doggy classes , not just for him , but for her too.

Frenchy August 14th, 2009 07:17 PM

[QUOTE=brecker;813890]That dog wouldn't see another day if it was mine. But I'm sure most people will tell you to get some type of dog behaviorist to try to fix it. The dog is completely dominating your mom, and it needs to be reversed.[/QUOTE]

I feel sorry for every dog you will own.

Frenchy August 14th, 2009 07:20 PM

[QUOTE=Sammi028;814044] If anyone has any advice to get him to stop barking and peeing on everything it would be much appreciated. [/QUOTE]

I have housetrain many dogs , your mom needs to take him outside often. Once he pees or poops , she needs to praise him , short sentences like : GOOD PEEPEE ! GOOD DOG !

sounds simple and stupid but , works for all of my fosters and own dogs. :shrug:

your mom needs to reinforce the good behavior , and stop the hitting. :dog:

t.pettet August 14th, 2009 07:35 PM

dog biting
 
I am not surprised he bites given he has been physically hit. Please get in touch with a small breed rescue so he can be re-homed and given a 2nd chance.

BenMax August 14th, 2009 07:40 PM

It's for this reason that I asked how this dog was being punished.

The dog is tramatized. Plain and simple. He has been conditioned that he will persecuted and he is reactive. It's his way to say back the F off.

Personally, if the dog is being hit and not well treated, get him the heck out of there. Find another alternative as this dog is in a bad situation which is not helping him out at all. It is obvious that you treat him well and he knows that you will not hurt him - and there is the difference.

So this is to sum up everything for this little guy:

He gets spanked.
He gets put outside (probably not gently)
He wears a shock collar.

All this equals = pain. And your question is how to train the dog to not bark and not pee. Take this situation and now pretend this is a human child. Would all the above be acceptable? Would you worry more about the child's behaviour or that of the mother/grandmother? You know the answer.

This is a bad situation. Sorry I don't sound positive and I certainly do not mean you any disrespect but the real issue here is how this dog is being treated. Humans are suppose to be of higher intelligence. Use the intelligence to understand that the human needs fixing and the dog will follow.

luckypenny August 14th, 2009 09:14 PM

[QUOTE=MyBirdIsEvil;814041]It will take a huge change in the way she interacts with him and probably professional intervention to correct the issue, and it could take a long time.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MyBirdIsEvil;814041]... The dog may have a dominant personality but the aggression is being brought on by the overaggressive behavior of the human owner. When a human overreacts to something a dog does, especially physically, it can cause aggression. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Frenchy;814048]...your mom needs to reinforce the good behavior , and stop the hitting. :dog:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BenMax;814054]... Humans are suppose to be of higher intelligence. Use the intelligence to understand that the human needs fixing and the dog will follow.[/QUOTE]

I'm willing to wager 99.9% of dogs are not born aggressive. It's the ignorance on their owners' parts that makes them that way.

If your mother is not willing to acknowledge what she's doing is wrong, please get him out of there.

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 11:48 PM

I have been speaking with her and she knows that things need to change, but we just needed to know what we needed to do. The praise for the things he does right is a good idea and I will let her know about it. How should we react to the bad behavior that we don't want him to do anymore? I know the hitting needs to stop and we are working on that.

Sammi028 August 14th, 2009 11:51 PM

And he wears the shock collar because he does not stop barking. I got that for him because I have heard many success stories from them and most dogs don't have to continue wearing them, but as soon as the collar is taken off he doesn't stop barking. I have witnessed this one and would like to know if there is a way that won't hurt him because he just barks through the shocks now and I don't want to keep using the collar.

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 12:01 AM

She spoke to me today and told me that she is really working on not yelling at or hitting the dog for doing something wrong, but everyone else in my family who live at home with the dog have seen her as the "punisher" if he does something wrong, so I want to pass along how she can let the dog know that he's done something wrong without the abuse. We do have a crate but he sees that as the punishment spot and he growls and barks when he goes in there because we used to put him in there when he got in trouble. Can anybody tell me how we can discipline him. I know we need to praise good behavior but how do we discourage bad behavior?

(The dog is overly protective as well. I'm not trying to make my mom sound really bad. She doesn't hit him all the time, but he lashes out at her because everyone leaves it to her to punish him, and she doesn't know how to do it. She thinks the spank will discourage him but all it's doing is making him aggressive towards her. She would go to hug my sister and he would freak out at her. He has been showing aggressive tendancies for a while now, but I havn't known where to go for help. I have spoken to everyone and they want to see results and better nicer behavior, we just need to know how to go about getting that behavior to come out)

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 12:14 AM

I will be taking him as soon as I can get out of the apartment i am in right now. I was planning on taking him when I moved, but my apartment came up with a no pet rule right as I was about to move so I had to leave him. I am looking for a place where I can have him with me, but it won't be until next April or May at least.

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 02:42 AM

[QUOTE=Bailey_;813960]
Don't put your dog down, please have him assessed by a proffesional. This will help you and your Mom get the information and understanding needed to properly handle your dog in the future.[/QUOTE]

What kind of professional should I take him to. I will be visiting for 3 weeks next month and I hope that I can get some progress on behavioral changes while I am out there and if I know who to take him to I can get a more detailed assesment on the situation. I came here for advice on how we can change to get a different behavior because I don't expect us to have the same behavior and get a different result. Me and my mom want to know what we need to do in order to change the situation and get things under control so that everyone can live happily in the home.

MyBirdIsEvil August 15th, 2009 03:45 AM

[QUOTE]I have heard many success stories from them and most dogs don't have to continue wearing them, but as soon as the collar is taken off he doesn't stop barking.[/QUOTE]

The [B]majority[/B] of dogs that wear bark collars will immediately begin barking again after the collar is removed. They're not dumb, they know where the shock is coming from. They know the shocking started when the collar was put on. I don't know where you heard these success stories about dogs not barking after the collar is gone because I haven't heard or seen them.

Also, you keep saying shock collar instead of bark collar. I really hope I'm misunderstanding you because you should NOT use plain old shock collars (the ones where you press a button to deliver a shock) for barking.
Bark collars are the ones that shock automatically when the dog barks, and while they're not the greatest device they're still better than a normal shock collar because they're timed to shock at the correct moment. Most dogs that wear bark collars won't bark enough to wear the battery out, they won't bark at all with the collar on unless it's fitted wrong. There are exceptions.

Really, you guys should be TEACHING him not to bark through positive reinforcement. Yelling at and hitting only makes barking worse because the dog is barking an alarm in the first place, if you overreact then he REALLY thinks there's a reason to worry.
You can teach not to bark by giving a command and then rewarding. Also teach him to speak on command. Dogs need to know appropriate times to bark. You will generally never get a dog to completely stop barking and some breeds are much worse than others.
Your moms frustrations and behavior are only making the barking worse.

Here's a short article on barking that explains why not to yell at them for it:
[url]http://www.pets.ca/pettips/tips-32.htm[/url]

There are lots of articles on here if you use the search bar at the top of the home page to look for them.

I'd like to make a statement on training aids. Bark collars are not really a training aid (if someone led you to believe this they're mistaken - aids are devices that aid you in training and can be used less or abandoned completely once proper training has taken place - bark collars are not this). As I said, the majority of dogs will ONLY cease barking while wearing the collar, so there is no training going on other than their knowledge that the collar causes pain when they bark. Some very protective dogs or dogs with a high pain tolerance will still bark while being shocked, and for that matter a lot of bark collars have a shut off function where if the dog barks enough within a certain amount of time they stop shocking them. Some dogs will bark fast enough to override the collar.

As for other training aids, they are just that, an AID. They don't do the work for you, you're supposed to use them along with training. If you're not doing any training (which should largely consist of positive reinforcement (giving treats and praise for doing something GOOD), not negative reinforcement (hitting, yelling, punishment in general) then the aid is going to be useless or it's usefulness will fade as the dog learns to compensate for the device.

As far as professionals, you need to find a behaviorist and trainer that relies on positive reinforcement. The trainer should also be pleasant with you and other owners because the owners are where the training starts. If the trainer is extremely rude then take a pass because you and your mom will not learn anything from someone you don't like or respect. A good place to ask around is at dog shows and stuff if you can find any in your area. Make sure whoever you pick has references and if need be see if you can actually contact those people to see how the person worked with THEIR dog and if they were successful.
Questions you can ask are "What would you do with an aggressive dog?". An answer to something like that should be fairly detailed and they should have different methods depending on the situation. If they give you a very direct solution without knowing the details they probably don't know what they're talking about. I once asked a trainer how they would help me with my dominant dog and they answered that they'd "alpha roll that *** until it submitted". An answer like that is unacceptable. That's an extreme example (though you're more likely to hear something like that than you'd think) but as long as the trainer can give you a detailed response and lots of verifiable information on what they'd do in a certain situation they're probably worth a try. The trainer should also be asking you lots of questions for an assessment (please do not hand your dog over to someone that hasn't even made an attempt to fully understand the situation) before they ever meet your dog.

Another good place to look actually is through reputable breeders in your area. AKC (American Kennel Club) and UKC (United Kennel Club) should have a list of silky terrier breeders in your region and GOOD breeders are caring and will be happy to answer questions about finding a trainer or behaviorist for your dog. That doesn't mean don't do your research after they make a recommendation but it's a good place to start.
Rescue organizations are also a good place to ask for advice.

Well, that's about all I have to offer right now. If you have more questions don't be embarrassed or think it's stupid to ask because one of us will surely attempt to answer.

BenMax August 15th, 2009 06:55 AM

If the dog is good with you and does not try to bite or lash out at you, then I do not see this as an aggressive dog but instead a reactive dog.

I do not necessarily agree with others saying that a behaviouralist is going to rectify this situation. I believe in this instance it is the handler that requires the education. Maybe a trainer is the solution. This trainer would probably focus on how your mom is managing the dog and from there give her tips on how to 'gently but firmly' correct the dog.

I also don't think that this dog is stimulated in a positive manner such as outings, exercise and just some fun in the sun. His mind is in the negative and not the positive. Really he should be taught the basic commands, go for walks and just have something positive in his life.

The observation I can read is that the dog is good with you and not mom - that is what sticks out. This means (to me) that it's not the dog that has the problem, it's his foundation that is not stable and nurturing.

If mom does not get on board, then find a good friend or another family member to take him until you get on your feet. As time goes by, the mental damage will be done - then you will need a behaviouralist to try and fix what is done. One year is a long time, and I really think that this dog will be in the rescue or shelter system.

As for the collar - ditch it. This is not the way to go. Ask mom to put the collar on with batteries fully charged and ask her to 'bark'. Seriously, she may somehow 'get it'.

marko August 15th, 2009 08:31 AM

I would strongly advocate that both you and your mom go to group obedience training for as many sessions as possible when you come in. Then let your mom go alone with the dog till the course ends. This course is mostly for your mom. There's a lot going on in your household, likely more than you've written. You want a GOOD trainer, so ask a vet or someone else that you trust for a referral. Do NOT do a blind search.

Good trainers see similar problems daily, and this will give your mom (through your encouragement by going with her) a chance to ask the trainer all kinds of other questions.... the trainer will also give your mom hands on training, and likely suggest other tips (like no free feeding for aggressive dogs).
Once your mom learns, knows and acts like she is the leader of the house, the dog's behaviour will change. I'd bet hard on that fact....but she needs to learn this hands on from a professional and I hope I'm not being too personal, but I think you should pay for the training, not your mom.
Hope that helps - Marko

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 08:36 AM

Thanks for the help about the barking. It is a bark collar not the one that you press a button to make it shock, I didn't know there was a difference between the names (obviousley I knew there is a difference between the two). I will pass this along and let you know how things get with everything. As I said before, my mom and I want things to change, we just needed to know how to do it

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 08:38 AM

I want to pay for the training so that it can actually happen, my parents really don't have the money to pay for extras which is why it hasn't happened yet.

marko August 15th, 2009 08:42 AM

I'm really glad to hear that. Your mom is likely afraid of the dog which makes the dog the leader. Once the roles change, their relationship will strengthen and your mom's fear will likely disappear.

luckypenny August 15th, 2009 09:08 AM

Are you near Salt Lake City? If you and your mother are committed to learning and change, you may want to look into this training center:

[url]http://www.wagthisway.net/index.html[/url]

Here's a link to the Association Of Pet Dog Trainers in the US:

[url]http://www.apdt.com/[/url]

In the left hand column, read the article, [B][I]How To Choose A Trainer[/I][/B] first, then click on [B][I]Dog Trainer Search.[/I][/B]

Please stay away from trainers who are inexperienced (ask for credentials and references) and who use aversive methods. At this point, your dog may not be able to differentiate between a correction and simple abuse. Always remember, positively reinforce wanted behavior, even when not asked of your dog...if he offers good behavior, especially on his own, reward, reward, reward. He will soon begin to learn what is expected of him. Teach him what [I]to do[/I] rather than what [I]not to do[/I]. An experienced trainer/behaviorist will be able to show you how manage/avoid/extinguish unwanted behaviors in your particular circumstances.

Patience and commitment, from both you and your mother, are necessary. Good luck.

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 09:26 AM

I live near Salt Lake, but my mom lives in Missouri, so I need to find something out there, but thanks again for the help

luckypenny August 15th, 2009 09:30 AM

What are some of the larger cities near her? I can help you look.

Sammi028 August 15th, 2009 09:46 AM

St Louis isn't that far, there is St Charles, St Clair, Ellisville, Ballwin, we live about 30 miles west of St Louis and there really isn't anything further west from us that doesn't take hours to get to.


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