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-   -   Feeding tube or let him go - E-tubes for cats (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=86191)

tiggy2 December 27th, 2014 04:25 PM

Feeding tube or let him go - E-tubes for cats
 
Hi guys

Back again with Tig and not eating again. I just read over some of my posts and it was less than a year ago that I went through the force feeding. This time he's still losing weight. The 9 pounds he was in July is now 8 pounds. I have been force feeding him for a couple of months with no improvement. I've done the blood work again and of course he comes up normal. We expected IBD and when he was on raw food he did well.

There have been some additions to the family. I'm fostering some kittens that were only supposed to be tempory and they were all sick with diarrhea, which took a couple of months to clear up, so I have not had time to make raw food so everyone is either back on canned or dry...ich.. I've also cooked turkey to help with digestion.

Back to Tig. He got picky with the food, lost the weight and then stopped eating..he'd eat a few mouthfuls and that's it. So back to syringe feeding, I can't seem to get enough in him and now he runs and hides from me. The last vet visitDec/23, he was under 8 pounds and vomiting. So he has a weeks reprieve with anti nausea and prednisolone. He's back to 8 pounds, no vomiting, but still does not want me to feed him.

So what to do? Feeding tube, as the stress of syringe feeding on both of us is becoming too much, or let him go by having him put to sleep. Aside from not eating, he's we think healthy.

I'm grasping at straws, I don't want to kill him because I can't get him to eat, but I don't want him to suffer if eating is causing pain? Sigh

Opinions, options and questions are welcome.

Barkingdog December 27th, 2014 06:16 PM

If it was me I would let him go , I know this very hard to do , b/c I had to do this when my dog was not able to keep food down b/c he had cancer .

tiggy2 December 27th, 2014 08:31 PM

I would let him go if I knew he had cancer, but there is no evidence that he does. He can keep food down, as he has done so the past week and put on .2 of Kg. I think he was throwing up because I was shoving food in his mouth faster than he could consume, plus it was raw food and he may not have been up for that. Kindness and all.

If I knew what was wrong and that whatever it was was terminal I would not hesitate to let him go, it's the, what is wrong with him that's frustrating, is it something that he just needs time to get over or is it more serious?

Sorry to hear about your dog and yes it is hard I had to do it with another cat, my first one and that was brutal.

Longblades December 28th, 2014 07:52 AM

I'm sorry, 12 is not at all old and this is so difficult. I've recently had similar things with my dog, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, but dogs, particularly Labs are easier to get to eat. We went to raw food as well as per our new Holistic Vet. My VEt is also giving him various Chinese medicines and my dog is now looking better in his coat than he ever did previously in all his 7 years of life. so I wonder if this is a route you might consider? Holistic with Chinese medicine? It's not cheap. It's not a guarantee either. Good luck, I hope you find something that works.

marko December 28th, 2014 07:56 AM

This is so personal and so difficult but I don't think I'd let him go at this point...because the cat is healthy. Yes 9 to 8 pounds is a loss of weight, but it's not deadly at this point.

I've always liked and shared this article when trying to think about such decisions. [url]http://www.pets.ca/dogs/tips/euthanasia-and-the-hhhhhmm-scale-pet-tip-228/[/url]

I wish you much strength :goodvibes:

tiggy2 December 28th, 2014 08:41 AM

Thank you Marko for the info. It does put things into perspective and will help with my other 2 elderly kitties, one with very bad arthritis.

This will be the 3rd time Tig has come through this "not eating" First was after surgery from a blockage in his stomache. I wish she has done a biopsy, instead of assume it was a hair ball. That was in 2011, he was on his last day of a hunger strike and decided to eat. The next time was last year, summer/fall 2013 which we never did find out what was wrong...$5,000 later..sigh. That took about 5 months of syringe feeding and he finally started eating, again no particular reason we humans could figure out.

And now this time fall/winter 2014. My vet is at a loss as to what is wrong with this guy. He is leaning towards a cancer, but doesn't cancer show up in blood work? White/red blood cells? Or am I out in left field? Can an animal have cancer and not know it? If it was cancer why would he get better for a year and then get sick again? I just wish I knew what was wrong:wall:

If anyone has lost a pet to cancer, did they not know about it? If so how to you know your pet has cancer?

Anyway time to feed old Tiggy:)

tiggy2 December 28th, 2014 08:44 AM

Has anyone had any luck getting raw food liquidy enough to syringe feed? And what foods are good or bad for IBD in cats?

Thanks again guys for all you help and please send the strength, I'm wearing out.

lindapalm December 28th, 2014 09:58 AM

Has your vet suggested an appetite stimulant, or doesn't he think that would be appropriate for Tigs situation?

Lynne&Co. December 28th, 2014 11:54 AM

I have no advice but can certainly send you some :goodvibes:
Best of luck with your kitty :grouphug:

tiggy2 December 28th, 2014 01:14 PM

My concern with appetite stimulants and prednislone is it makes him more aggressive. But the pred. Seems to be making him hungarier.

I'm going to throw out a behavioral issues, anyone out there with behavioral knowledge let me know if I'm out there in left field.

Would a cat starve for attention. So last year when this happened we had 2 new kittens in the house. Got them in May and issues started in June. This year we took in foster kitties in August and September and issues started late October. He stops eating enough food to maintain his weight, he starts losing weight and then eats less and I step in with syringe feeding.

I know it's way out there but I'm grasping at any straw to figure out why this happens.

Opinions

sugarcatmom December 28th, 2014 01:33 PM

Sorry to hear Tig is having eating issues again.

Are the fosters kept separate? If not, do you have multiple feeding stations around the house?

tiggy2 December 28th, 2014 06:04 PM

Hi Sugarcatmom

The fosters were separate until there were too old to keep behind the gate, they could jump over it, so everyone is all together. As for feeding stations, any suggestions on how to do that. I struggle with that as the younger ones are always eating each others food and my older cats don't like that. I usually put the older ones in another room while the young ones are eating then I boot the younger ones outside (I have a cat proof fenced yard) allowing the older ones some peace. Once it gets cold that will be a lot harder to do.

I'm thinking an E-Tube for Tigger..opinion?

Reg December 29th, 2014 02:22 PM

Hi Tiggy2:

Sorry to hear you are still having problems with Tigger. I've had some experience feeding raw using a syringe. I found that pork seemed to break down more into a slurry that was suitable for a syringe.

I have some questions for you.

What are you using presently for recipe for raw food? Is it the one that SCM suggested back in June of 2013?

Do you have your own grinder? And have you been doing the bone grinding as well with the raw food - ie, chicken or turkey, or even rabbit?

What are you using for a syringe? Is it the medical type or something like the farmers' Co-op or feed store sells for force feeding?

In regards to Tig's bowel movements - are you able to observe any blood or mucosa in them? I haven't noticed any reference in past articles or postings.

The suggestion is that it could be IBD, but it might be IBS, which is a lot more difficult to deal with, and there is a difference in the two.

I dealt with Missy for years under the impression of IBD and really not being able to get a handle on it. It wasn't until about the last 6 months of her life, that we realized that we were dealing with the Syndrome and not the Disease. In short - the syndrome is an allergic reaction to certain protein - like chicken. The disease seems to be more of a reaction to manufactured foods.

I'm more in Marko's ballpark when it comes to putting him down. There isn't enough information - to my way of thinking - to put him down at this point. It's more of getting a handle on his present problem to see if you can get him back to more comfort.

In regards to stress. From my experience with cats, we as humans have no conception of what they go through and how long the situation causing the stress will affect them. We just went through a lot of it before parting with Missy and then to loose Shadow a few days later - specifically due to the stress of Missy being gone - and we were in the midst of a major move. We really had no idea what was going on in their minds. Had his situation been classed as human - it could have been called a type of suicide.

Anyway, back to Tig. If you can answer some of my questions, I can send you the web site for the pork recipe and how I work with it to make it syringeable - if there is such a word?

One last question - have you ever contemplated an integrative vet or alternative medicine for Tig ? I have looked into that e-tube feeding too. I have not used it, but it looks good for long term. It really cuts the stress level way back for the animal.

tiggy2 December 29th, 2014 06:08 PM

[QUOTE=Reg;1069751]Hi Tiggy2:

Sorry to hear you are still having problems with Tigger. I've had some experience feeding raw using a syringe. I found that pork seemed to break down more into a slurry that was suitable for a syringe.

I've used Pork in the past, but I was concerned that it might be too high in fat.

I have some questions for you.

What are you using presently for recipe for raw food? Is it the one that SCM suggested back in June of 2013?

The receipt I've used is from Dr Lisa Pierceson? I haven't made any for awhile due to the extra load of foster kittens/cats. I have a grinder and made a batch last week for Tig, but can't get the bones ground down enough for syringe, so I hand fed him but he would spit it out and then started to throw it up so I stopped that. Right now I'm feeding him recovery canned food from vet, not top on my list but I need to get calories into him. I've also fed him ground cooked turkey with not a lot of luck. The recovery he seems to tolerate and will actually lick from the syringe.

Do you have your own grinder? And have you been doing the bone grinding as well with the raw food - ie, chicken or turkey, or even rabbit?

What are you using for a syringe? Is it the medical type or something like the farmers' Co-op or feed store sells for force feeding?

I do believe I bought the syringes from a drug store, it was over a year ago but I think that was the only place I could get the ones that have rubber that will last.

In regards to Tig's bowel movements - are you able to observe any blood or mucosa in them? I haven't noticed any reference in past articles or postings.

I have not seem him have a poop as he has a tendency to go outside to do that. If I follow him he just runs away from me. I have to kind of catch him in the act at a distance and then dash over when he's done to see what's what. I'm almost afraid to look.

The suggestion is that it could be IBD, but it might be IBS, which is a lot more difficult to deal with, and there is a difference in the two.

I have never heard of IBS, I'll have to look into it.

I dealt with Missy for years under the impression of IBD and really not being able to get a handle on it. It wasn't until about the last 6 months of her life, that we realized that we were dealing with the Syndrome and not the Disease. In short - the syndrome is an allergic reaction to certain protein - like chicken. The disease seems to be more of a reaction to manufactured foods.

How did you find out what the problem was. What were the symptoms?

I'm more in Marko's ballpark when it comes to putting him down. There isn't enough information - to my way of thinking - to put him down at this point. It's more of getting a handle on his present problem to see if you can get him back to more comfort.

I agree, I get so disheartened, he really does not like me now and looks uncomfortable and soooo thin only 8 pounds all bones.


In regards to stress. From my experience with cats, we as humans have no conception of what they go through and how long the situation causing the stress will affect them. We just went through a lot of it before parting with Missy and then to loose Shadow a few days later - specifically due to the stress of Missy being gone - and we were in the midst of a major move. We really had no idea what was going on in their minds. Had his situation been classed as human - it could have been called a type of suicide.

I really think stress plays a factor and my stress only makes him worse, he's very much atuned to my feeling, so me being stressed over him and all the sick fosters has not helped him any.

Anyway, back to Tig. If you can answer some of my questions, I can send you the web site for the pork recipe and how I work with it to make it syringeable - if there is such a word?

That would be great. Is pork hard on their digestion? Is fat hard on the bowels if he has IBD?

One last question - have you ever contemplated an integrative vet or alternative medicine for Tig ? I have looked into that e-tube feeding too. I have not used it, but it looks good for long term. It really cuts the stress level way back for the animal.[/QUOTE]

I'm scheduling an e-tube as soon as possible, probably in the New Year, I'm hoping this will help both of us, im very tired of being the bad guy and I can't syringe feed again for another 4-5 months, it's too much for us both. He's on an antidepressant now to stop him from spray the entire house, I'm hoping it will also help with his anxiety. I have feliway all over the house and am trying to incorporate other calming sprays..safe space for cats etc.

I'm just so tired of worrying about him and not know what's going on, at this point I have no life outside of cat care..ok so that my pity party:)

Any other info, especially with foods that work with syringe feeding or e-tube is much appreciated. Thanks again

Barkingdog December 29th, 2014 06:20 PM

Force feeding your pet is not going to help his anxiety.

tiggy2 December 29th, 2014 07:56 PM

Hence I want to get an e-Tube put into place, to take away the stress and the aversion/negative connotation to food. It's a royal mess:(

I was hoping it would only be a short period of force feeding, but alas it's turning into another long haul.

sugarcatmom December 29th, 2014 08:46 PM

[QUOTE=tiggy2;1069752]I'm scheduling an e-tube as soon as possible, [/QUOTE]

:thumbs up

I think e-tubes can be amazingly helpful in these situations. It will definitely help your own peace-of-mind, especially since Tig doesn't otherwise seem to be suffering from any obvious illness. While syringe-feeding can cause a deterioration in your bond, tube-feeding can actually improve the bond. My cat would look forward to our regular feeding sessions because it was quality one-on-one time with him sitting comfortably on my lap for half an hour while I slowly injected food into his belly. In fact he went from being very much a non-lap cat to a total lap cat after that time period.

The recipe I used for tube-feeding was with Hill's A/D diluted with water and various supplements added (tailored to the specific cat), blended in a food processor and then smooshed through a sieve to get out the larger particles that might clog the tube. Your vet should be able to give you a recipe with the correct proportions of everything. I made enough at one time to last 3-4 days in the fridge (make sure you warm up the food first before feeding - I would fill 3 syringes and place them in a bowl of warm water for 10-15 minutes).

tiggy2 December 29th, 2014 09:27 PM

[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;1069755]:thumbs up

I think e-tubes can be amazingly helpful in these situations. It will definitely help your own peace-of-mind, especially since Tig doesn't otherwise seem to be suffering from any obvious illness. While syringe-feeding can cause a deterioration in your bond, tube-feeding can actually improve the bond. My cat would look forward to our regular feeding sessions because it was quality one-on-one time with him sitting comfortably on my lap for half an hour while I slowly injected food into his belly. In fact he went from being very much a non-lap cat to a total lap cat after that time period.

The recipe I used for tube-feeding was with Hill's A/D diluted with water and various supplements added (tailored to the specific cat), blended in a food processor and then smooshed through a sieve to get out the larger particles that might clog the tube. Your vet should be able to give you a recipe with the correct proportions of everything. I made enough at one time to last 3-4 days in the fridge (make sure you warm up the food first before feeding - I would fill 3 syringes and place them in a bowl of warm water for 10-15 minutes).[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info, makes me feel a little less anxious. How much did you have to feed your cat? Tig is 8 pounds and does well at 9 pounds. The problem I'm having with Syringe feeding is getting enough food into him.

Reg December 30th, 2014 12:29 PM

Hi Tiggy2:

Personally I think your decision to have the e-tube is the way I'd go, considering all the problems you've had to now and knowing how hamstrung you are having to force feed at regular feeding times. Time just doesn't allow for everything.

Here's the web site for the pork recipe. Instead of cutting it, I put it through the meat grinder, with extra fat - preferably pork if you can get it - if not use ghee.

I would then do what SCM suggested - run it through a food processor to make a good puree. Something I did with the medical syringes was to enlarge the holes 1/32 or 1/64 of an inch. Helps to relieve blockage when pushing the food out.

[url]http://holisticat.com/en/raw-feeding/19-chunk.html[/url]

Here's a web site for those who are not familiar with e-tube feeding to have a look at and understand where we're coming from in regards this style of force feeding.

[url]http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes[/url]

Hope all this helps. If I can be of any further help, just let me know.

Barkingdog December 30th, 2014 02:29 PM

[url]http://vetgirlontherun.com/veterinary-continuing-education-how-to-place-esophagostomy-tubes-cats-dog-vetgirl-blog/[/url]



Do you mean when you say e tube ??? There is no way I would this to a pet of mine.

sugarcatmom December 30th, 2014 08:10 PM

[QUOTE=Barkingdog;1069764]
Do you mean when you say 3 tube ??? [/quote]

What's a "3 tube"? Unless that was a typo and you meant e-tube.

[QUOTE=Barkingdog;1069764] There is no way I would this to a pet of mine.[/QUOTE]

No one is asking you to do this to one of your pets, so not an issue. Although I would like to mention that you are commenting on something you know nothing about, and not in a helpful way. Having successfully tube-fed cats on more than one occasion, where they went on to live very long happy lives, I can tell you that feeding tubes save lives and are not the invasive horror that you seem to think they are.

Barkingdog December 30th, 2014 10:40 PM

[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;1069767]What's a "3 tube"? Unless that was a typo and you meant e-tube.



No one is asking you to do this to one of your pets, so not an issue. Although I would like to mention that you are commenting on something you know nothing about, and not in a helpful way. Having successfully tube-fed cats on more than one occasion, where they went on to live very long happy lives, I can tell you that feeding tubes save lives and are not the invasive horror that you seem to think they are.[/QUOTE]

That was a typo , I hit the wrong key . OOPS!

tiggy2 December 30th, 2014 11:08 PM

[QUOTE=Reg;1069763]Hi Tiggy2:

Personally I think your decision to have the e-tube is the way I'd go, considering all the problems you've had to now and knowing how hamstrung you are having to force feed at regular feeding times. Time just doesn't allow for everything.

Here's the web site for the pork recipe. Instead of cutting it, I put it through the meat grinder, with extra fat - preferably pork if you can get it - if not use ghee.

I would then do what SCM suggested - run it through a food processor to make a good puree. Something I did with the medical syringes was to enlarge the holes 1/32 or 1/64 of an inch. Helps to relieve blockage when pushing the food out.

[url]http://holisticat.com/en/raw-feeding/19-chunk.html[/url]

Here's a web site for those who are not familiar with e-tube feeding to have a look at and understand where we're coming from in regards this style of force feeding.

[url]http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes[/url]

Hope all this helps. If I can be of any further help, just let me know.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for all the info I'll have a look at it tomorrow and let you know how he does. Fingers crossed

tiggy2 December 30th, 2014 11:12 PM

[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;1069767]What's a "3 tube"? Unless that was a typo and you meant e-tube.



No one is asking you to do this to one of your pets, so not an issue. Although I would like to mention that you are commenting on something you know nothing about, and not in a helpful way. Having successfully tube-fed cats on more than one occasion, where they went on to live very long happy lives, I can tell you that feeding tubes save lives and are not the invasive horror that you seem to think they are.[/QUOTE]
Yes an E-Tube and thanks Sugarcatmom for the support. I feel bad enough having to put him through surgery but if he's generally healthy I want to give him a good life and watching him stave to death is not a good life. I have seen him bounce back from deaths door twice now and hopefully third time is the lucky charm. I'll keep you up today and feel free to send any info you might think I will need. This is my first E-Tube.

tiggy2 December 31st, 2014 08:05 PM

Feeding tube is in and he's home. Not a very happy camper at this point, but he's had a tough day. Got 60ml of food in him trying to decide if I should put more in. He has a phlegmy cough, I presume this is normal for having you throat messed with.

I'm making a "kitty kollar" something that will hold the tube down when not in use and I've lost the cap already, using a plug for now.

Anyone have any measurements for a kitty kollar? The one I made is not bad but would like something that secures the tube a little better and maybe not so hot.

Anyway lets hope this will work out:)

Reg December 31st, 2014 09:15 PM

Hi Tiggy2:

Glad to hear things are progressing pretty good. Can't help with the kitty kollar but do send you best wishes, vibes, and prayers that all goes well with this new routine.

Keep us all posted.

tiggy2 December 31st, 2014 11:41 PM

Right now he looks awful. Has not moved in hours. Pick him up and he moans...sigh. Is it like humans where you have to move around in order to get things moving. I have to check he's breathing, other wise he looks dead.

Happy new year. Hope 2015 will be better and all my foster kittens get adopted.

hazelrunpack January 1st, 2015 10:53 AM

Aw, poor guy. :( Saying a little prayer that he perks up and the feeding tube does the trick for him! :goodvibes:

tiggy2 January 1st, 2015 11:24 AM

How long before moving around
 
HAPPY NEW YEAR

Just wondering how long before Tig will start moving around? For those who have had ETubes before, did your cat stay hunched up for a period of time? Every time I pick him up he moans. He had runny/watery poop last night and just sleeps, won't even open his eyes. I've given him 80 ml of food yesterday and started today with 30 mls. Figure I'd do 30-40 ml stretches with 15-30ml water.

Should I be worried? Great New Years :( :cry:

Reg January 1st, 2015 02:58 PM

Happy New Year Tiggy2:

It has been my experience that whenever I decided to do something different, it takes up to maybe 24 hours or more for there to be any kind of change. This also applies to if they have had surgery of some kind too - which your Tig had. So you have to give time for recovery from that stress.

Did you change the kind of food you are giving to kitty? and what are you feeding him now? You're better to be on the light side with the food until he's more mobile and up and around.

A lot depends on the cat too. Some are more willing to change and some don't like it at all. So it may take a day or two for his system to adjust to the new routine. We humans have the same sort of problem when it comes right down to it.

His body is likely saying - hey this is new, let's just take it slow and easy till we see what's going on here.


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