spike collars
 

Hi All
I looked through previous posts to see if this question had already been asked, but didn't find anything. My question is, are spike collars not cruel??? I am talking about the metal ones with the 1 inch spikes all around that dig INTO the dogs neck at slight angles. To me they look horrendous and I have seen 2 people who use them on their large dogs. My first instinct is to fly off the handle :mad: at these people; but I have to admit I am not very educated about them. Am I wrong? Are they not as bad as I think? I would NEVER use one on my boy regardless. Any input would be appreciated. Perhaps I can enlighten these people with some facts (to back up my opinion)
Thanks in advance

From what I understand, they are called prong collars. They are actually more safe and more humane than choke chains (not that I like those either).

A study done in Germany studied 100 dogs over their entire lives, while 50 used chokes, and 50 used prongs. When the dogs died, autopsys were done to determine the extent of injury over the lifetime of the dog.

46 of the dogs with chokes had damage to their neck, trachea and back.
1 of the dogs with prongs had damage to their neck only.

I thought people were insane when I saw someone using one, then I did a google search and learned the facts. They really don't appear to be that bad.

They don't dig into the dog's neck. When used properly, they administer a slight pinch - not painful, just uncomfortable.

Both of my dogs have 3 collars. They wear a flat collar around the house and when they go outside to take care of business. They wear a prong collar when they go for a walk or with me to the pet store. The metal choker is left hanging on the hook on the sunroom wall.

As you can see from my signature, I have a rottweiler and a beagle mix. While my rottie can go anywhere and behave with a flat collar on, Missy MUST have her prong on before she leaves the car when we go places. Too many yummy smells and she pulls all over the place.

Last summer, Missy went to the feed store with my mom and I. Since we had not planned to take her (she slid out the door between my mom and I and jumped into the van) the only collar she had was her flat collar. She spent the whole time in the feed store pulling, which means she also spent it coughing and vomiting. She would have done the same with a choker on. With her prong collar on, she behaves wonderfully and there is no pulling, coughing, or vomiting. Any corrections given are much lighter then is needed with a choker, which is ignored anyway.

We were actually told to use one. It was referred to us as a "pinch" collar. With breeds with strong neck muscles, when they pull, it doesn't deter them from pulling, and they can crush thier own trachea. With a pinch collar, if they pull too tight, it pinches the skin, and they stop pulling. If it fits properly, it actually hangs harmlessly around the neck. With Daisy, I can fit my fingers in between her neck and the prongs. As a matter of fact, if I hold it up, she pushes her face through it trying to get it on (she knows it's walk time!) We had issues with it at first as well, but we were assured by several experts that it is, in fact, very humane, as long as you aren't a jerk like I was once and pull on it hard when the dog gets excited. The prongs themselves are actually not sharp, and the amount of pressure you would have to apply to pierce the skin (I'm assuming this is your fear, as this is what mine was) would be quite phenominal. We did have a choke collar for walking, and we found her pulling so hard, she was doing just that--choking. Same with her cotton collar which she usually wears. If I use that to take her to get the mail, she'll sometimes pull so hard she starts hacking.

With the pinch collar, as soon as it starts to tighten, the dog feels it, and stops pulling. Once they are used to it, they almost never feel discomfort, because they can feel the fingers on thier neck. It actually has to tighten quite a bit to actually "pinch". I'm sure when I'm rough housing with her, I'm rougher on her skin than the collar (and trust me, she's enjoying it, and I usually wind up getting hurt. That's when my wife says, "Dumbass". When I ask her who, she just shakes her head and says, "Both of you!")

I agree with raingirl and LavenderRott. Prong collars, when used correctly, are a very effective teaching tool. After a few corrections, the dog learns that the prong collar is not the most pleasant thing in the world, and starts to behave without much correction.

Choker chains do just that...choke. Flat collars have no real way of relaying a proper correction. A dog with long hair should use the one with the 1" spikes, while a dog with short hair should use a variation of it....one made of plastic with little nubs instead of long prongs.

The collar is only to be left on when you require full control of an uncontrolable dog. The minute I started using a prong collar was the time when Diamond stopped pulling on her leash to the point of choking herself. A proper lesson, by my obedience instructor, showed me how to properly use it. A very effective teaching tool, when used properly. :thumbs up

Like everyone here I thought how cruel. But that is not the truth in fact this collar is more effective than any other training tool. Because I found it to be the quickest and most effective with no harm to the dog. I suggest if you are going to use one, that you get advise from someone who knows how to use it the most effectively with no harm to your dog. I used this on my Neo and it was like walking a normal dog instead of me being dragged down the street if there was a cat, squirrel, or small animal around. Boo had a high prey drive and this collar helped to keep my arms attached to my body.

thank you
 

Wow that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for all the input. i suppose you shouldn't judge a book by its cover (they just look SOOO menacing) I'm glad I asked. I don't like when people spout off about something they know little to nothing about, and I didn't want to be one of those people. :( I also suppose I should never say never. I currently use a halti when I try to walk my rottiXshep. He is 100lb and all muscle. The halti works wonders... when it stays on! There is no jerking involved; thats what I like. He corrects himself with a gentle nose pull. The problem is, the clever boy gets it off too easily. I have tried the choker in the past (bad mommy)and he would pull and choke and wheeze but he would just keep on truckin'. It makes sense to me that that is more cruel and could do more damage. Maybe I will look further into this prong thing. For walks only. Maybe. :confused:

I agree that prong collars are better than chokers; however, a flat collar, standard leash, and training is all that should be needed. Special collars, halties, etc. just mask the problem. With consistent training a dog can be taught not to pull on the leash VERY quickly.

I'm not trying to offend anyone...just my opinion. :thumbs up

Next time you see someone with a dog with one, ask them about it, and take a good look at it. It will make you feel much more comfortable. We've used one for about 3 years, and only once has Daisy every yelped (that was my fault...we'll leave it at that), so you can see it doesn't actually hurt her. And she loves to pull! When I get home at night from work after working overtime, I usually take her to get the mail, which is just around the corner. Because I go to bed within an hour and a half of getting home, I don't have time to go for a long walk (my wife tries to take her most times). So I'll do a sprint to the mail box and back, which Daisy loves. She'll have her pinch collar on, and even with both of us running, it doesn't seem to bother her. When she starts running faster than me, she'll pull a little, but usually just slow down. Once you see it in use, you'll learn that they're quite safe, and you'll really like it, because it makes walking you dog more enjoyable for both of you.

The only complaint I have, and it isn't about the collar, is I've seen a couple of idiots who are for the ban talk about pitbull owners trying to make thier dog look tough by putting these big chain collars with spikes on them. But that's another story...

I can' resist. We only use flat wide collars in our training and have never needed anything else in 30 years - and we have worked the gammit of all dogs. A flat wide collar disperses the energy and causes less discomfort if used correctly. If I were working with a physically impaired person with an out of control large breed I might consider something to help, but we have worked with all sorts of physically challenged people and still not needed it. I don't think it should be about which device controls the dog better but how to communicate more effectively.
Because we don't use devices I don't have anecdotal evidence to support anything in that direction. I just know I don't want my dog to behave to avoid a force or pain. I want him to cooperate out of respect. We start by teaching a dog never to pull in the first place - then it's not an issue. The very first drill we do is called the 'no pulling' drill. Even dogs who arrive here in halters, pinch collars or chokes (sometimes all 3) - we remove all of the devices and go back to the flat wide collar - and we see changes right away.
One problem is that people teach dogs to pull - we don't mean to but we do. From the very start the puppy pulls us to 16 different spots to decide where to pee. They pull us here and there. This is the beginning of the end - they will pull their human everywhere from then on. They think they are supposed to pull the human to get where they want to go . Teach them not to pull and they learn quickly to pay attention to where the leader is and respect that.
People also tend to keep a tight leash - we must think it gives us more control - yet the dogs still yank us off our feet. A loose leash gets the dog to make choices and choose good manners according to the persons wishes. Watch your dog on the leash. Do this little test - start inside and put the leash on and keep it loose, if there are no distractions he should stand there with a loose leash, start to tighen up on the leash and watch him start to lean into it - the beginning of pulling, tighten up a lot and watch him pull against it a lot. It is natural for a dog to resist - pull or push against pressure.
We teach a dog to give to pressure not fight it. A person couldn't fight a horse on a lead if it came down to strength - so we must teach the horse to give to the pressure of the lead and cooperate. You see big men being dragged down the walk by a Maltese - so it's really not even about strength.
I recieved a call from Chicago last week from a woman who was hysterical about a training class she attended. The instructor insisted that all of the dogs wear pinch collars, the people had gloves on to protect their hands and one Boston Terrier pup left the class with a bleeding neck. I was beyond insensed that such treatment could go on and not be reported to the authorities. So it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth knowing these things still occur when there are so many better choices.
All things in balance - if the device works for you and the dog is not being hurt then go for it. But would you still have control of your dog if the device broke? Have you taken every advantage in teaching good manners or have you chosen the quick fix?
To people who use devices - please don't take offense at my words, I am just trying to offer another piece to the puzzle.

No offence taken but if you have a 180 pound dog who has a high prey drive a Halti would never work I also find they do not work for heavily jowled dogs they only hurt them. But not everything works for every breed. I also feel that when you are dealing with rescues you have not had the chance to train from puppyhood. So I feel each dog is different and I think you have to adjust your methods for each dog.

I also don't take offense, but my 70 pound 9 month old puppy has a VERY strong neck and I'm tired of my hands hurting from trying to hold her back. Her prey drive is also unbelievably strong, and if she sees something she wants to go look at, we're going. In a case like this, they know they're not supposed to pull, but when they decide to do it, stopping them can be a bit of a chore, and a pain to the person trying to hold them back.
The prong collar lets her know that I'm in control, not her.
I also tried flat collars, haltis, harness, but only the prong did the job.
This is a case of use whatever works. Different dogs call for different training methods. I'd love to not have to use the prong, but it works.

As far as being able to control her off leash, say if the prong collar broke...you betcha she'll listen. The only place she doesn't listen is in her own back yard, or if she's in the middle of playing while off leash. Part of the walking lessons include emergency down, recall to heel, and other vital lessons. I know how to call my dog so that she comes. If that means running away from her, so be it. She'll follow because she knows I'm the alpha and it MUST be good where I'm going.

Again, no offense taken. But not everyone can follow the training regime you have, as we're not all obedience trainers. I'm a computer geek with a smart dog, not someone with a background in animal behaviour. I'm flying by the seat of my pants, and I do a LOT of reading on training. My puppy obedience trainer only suggested prong collars for those people who were unable to control their dogs. Does she wear a prong all the time? No. Not every waking moment is a training session. Only walks get the prong.

I hope I haven't offended you, or anyone else here.

I respect your choices.
I would love a chance to show you how we work and see what you thought. We have worked with so many adult rescue dogs that you would never think could be reached and we see great changes in the first sesson.
I am not trying to say we are the only way or the best way, but I think we offer a sound method of teaching that changes the dog from the inside instead of controlling from the outside.
I am I being too obnoxious? Don't answer that! :o

Unfortunately Boo is no longer with us he is at rainbow bridge but I would have gladly brought him by I am always open to new suggestions. Fortunately I have the best Mastiff in the world now who never pulls on a leash or lunges at small unsuspecting creatures. Buddy is also a rescue so you never know what is awaiting you with a rescue but always worth the effort.

[QUOTE=tenderfoot]I respect your choices.
I would love a chance to show you how we work and see what you thought.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I respect your choices too.

I do wish I could attend one of your training sessions, but I have no clue where you live. I highly doubt that you could come and see me in Winnipeg...could you??? :o :o ;)

Never mind. I see that you were actually talking to Mastifflover, not me. I'll move along now. :o

Aren't Mastiffs the best? I have one on my wish list, but so far we are limited to 5 dogs and just can't add another right now.
And thank you for taking on a rescue - we all appreciate you for that.

Visit to Canada
 

Actually I was addressing both of you.
I would love to come and visit everyone on this site. I asked Marko to arrange a Pets.ca Expo so we could all meet, but I forget how big Canada is. We are in Colorado and people do travel from all over to visit us, but until then we have other ways of reaching people (see tenderfoottraining.com) with our methods.
Thanks for asking.

They are the best and you really need to be owned by one.

well i use a choke collar, i think i must be one of a dying breed there. when we went to dog school 8 nearly 9 yrs ago choke chain was the only method taught, jsut like prong it was hailed as the next great lead. years later and ppl think i am cruel for using it, i certainly dont and it is very effective in dog fights (not only for control but when of leash it means you have something noisy to throuw in the fight it works well for me). my girl will not allow anything else, she is used to the sound and fit of the choke chain, on her choke she is the perfect angel, she walks like a lady and does not pull or anything. but if i change that chain and i have tried before, she goes nuts and tries to rip my arms out pulling, she is jsut rude without her choke, it is part of her routine and anything else just does not gel with this girl. but to use a choke correctly takes training and time, most ppl dont do this so chokes get a bad rap.

as a choke chain user i do see prongs as cruel, i know it is supposed to imitate the mother dog but if that is so do ppl follow it through by biting the dog when naughty, the dog lives with humans so i see no point in immitating another dog. i dont like the idea of the pinch, if used correctly a choke should not harm the dog, just restrain it, so i have always not liked prong, along with shock collars and the lot. i just dont think inflicting any form of pain is appropriate, weather a human decides that pain is right or not.

ppl using it is it used in your dog schools??, is it the reccomended method?? has any one found it used in their school? just wondering

[QUOTE=melanie]well i use a choke collar, i think i must be one of a dying breed there. when we went to dog school 8 nearly 9 yrs ago choke chain was the only method taught, jsut like prong it was hailed as the next great lead. years later and ppl think i am cruel for using it, i certainly dont and it is very effective in dog fights (not only for control but when of leash it means you have something noisy to throuw in the fight it works well for me). my girl will not allow anything else, she is used to the sound and fit of the choke chain, on her choke she is the perfect angel, she walks like a lady and does not pull or anything. but if i change that chain and i have tried before, she goes nuts and tries to rip my arms out pulling, she is jsut rude without her choke, it is part of her routine and anything else just does not gel with this girl. but to use a choke correctly takes training and time, most ppl dont do this so chokes get a bad rap.

as a choke chain user i do see prongs as cruel, i know it is supposed to imitate the mother dog but if that is so do ppl follow it through by biting the dog when naughty, the dog lives with humans so i see no point in immitating another dog. i dont like the idea of the pinch, if used correctly a choke should not harm the dog, just restrain it, so i have always not liked prong, along with shock collars and the lot. i just dont think inflicting any form of pain is appropriate, weather a human decides that pain is right or not.

ppl using it is it used in your dog schools??, is it the reccomended method?? has any one found it used in their school? just wondering[/QUOTE]

Actually, yes, I have bit my dog...you know, that didn't sound as nuts in my head.

The pinch-collar was recommended to us by a trainer. The way it was explained to us is that if you have a muscular breed, the pinch-collar is the way to go. The choke chain will do more damage, and because of the muscle, the pinch-chain actually doesn't hurt as much. If you have a less muscular breed (like a collie, for example), the choke-chain is actually more comfortable. I know for my self this makes sense. Being a cyclist, I have good muscle tone in my legs, like Daisy's neck. If I try to pinch my leg, it's difficult to get the skin to "pinch", I have to use a lot of pressure. On the other hand, if I try it on a fleshier part, say my stomach, it is very easy to pinch, and it hurts. On the other hand, if I use, say, a belt around my thigh, I don't really notice it unless I tie it very tight. It doesn't take long to hurt. If I tie a belt around my stomach, I can get it fairly tight without a great deal of pain.

Don't know if that makes sense, but I've tried it, and it seems to to me! ;)

No mel,I'm right there with you.I too am one of the dying breed.. :p ...I too have used it.But when they were pups.None have ever been choked.And after they mastered the "heel" after about 2 weeks,it wasn't needed again.The "choke" if used properly will do the job.A real good collar to use for those who don't like the choke or prong is the Martingale.As for the professional trainers using the prong,I don't know of any at all who use them.And I'm talking about proffessionals...Here in Ontario one of the top ones is McCann.And I can name more.What gets me is when I see pups pulling on a leash.The person at the other end is not correcting the pup.Letting them do this at 3 months is nothing compaired to when pup reaches 80lbs.Then it seems like a problem.

[QUOTE=mona_b]No mel,I'm right there with you.I too am one of the dying breed.. :p ...I too have used it.But when they were pups.None have ever been choked.And after they mastered the "heel" after about 2 weeks,it wasn't needed again.The "choke" if used properly will do the job.A real good collar to use for those who don't like the choke or prong is the Martingale.As for the professional trainers using the prong,I don't know of any at all who use them.And I'm talking about proffessionals...Here in Ontario one of the top ones is McCann.And I can name more.What gets me is when I see pups pulling on a leash.The person at the other end is not correcting the pup.Letting them do this at 3 months is nothing compaired to when pup reaches 80lbs.Then it seems like a problem.[/QUOTE]

As I mentioned, it was a professional who recommended it to us. It was also explained that this collar is only for certain dogs, those with extremly muscular necks. It is not a nice collar for the average dog.

Pinch Collars and Mastiffs
 

I have to say that the only collar angel( Dogue De Bordeaux) wears on walks is her pinch collar. She used to pull me all over, then I found the pinch collar and was taught how to correct her with it on. As was said on here before, I too made the mistake of pulling hard enough once to make her yelp but that was my fault. She is very strong ( she weighs almost 130 lbs!) and she is a complete darling with it on. I think using it correctly is the trick.
She actually likes the collar, maybe because she puts going for a walk and that collar together, but she only wears it on walks.

I have actually put it onto my leg and pulled it, it doesn`t hurt just kinda gets your attention ;) .
Different strokes for different folks I guess. For the most part, she doesn`t wear a collar, she only puts hers on for walks.

The same with Daisy. It's funny, as soon as I go near my shoes, she goes looking for the collar and starts nosing it. I hold it up, and I remember trying to put it on her really gentle, and she shoves her had through it if I don't put it on fast enough!

what type of pinch collar do you have?
 

The "pinch collar" I have for Angel has the prong part then a choke type chain connecting the prongs. You can add or remove prongs on hers( which is a good thing as I had to purchase 2 in order to get enough to go around that tree truck size neck of hers! When I put hers on I just take apart one set of prongs and put them back together . I just have to use a different set each time so they don`t get loose and not work effectively.
I will see what I have for pics of her with it on, and then maybe we can see if they are the same.

That's the same kind I use for Diamond. But, when we bought it, we were told to make it small enough that if we want to put it on we have to undo one of the links, not so big as to slip over the head or it won't be effective.

That is exactly what the trainer I spoke with told me. Never put it on as you would a choke that is how they get hurt because the collar will slide down instead of sitting high on the neck. I know as Boo got heavier I kept having to expand with more links. I just lent it to a friend who took it out of the bag and asked if it belonged to a horse. I guess you just get so used to them being big you dont even notice it.

LOL!
I know what you mean! A friend of ours owns a Bull Terrier, and she uses a prong collar too (those are strong little dogs!!!). We showed her Diamond's collar and she looked surprised. Then she showed us Sadie's collar....holy cow....talk about small links! Diamond wouldn't even be able to feel that through her coat.

We used to have a choker for Cano, and the only time we used it was when we put him outside. He had never pulled the chain tight enough to "choke" himself, until those pesky kids harassed him a few weeks ago. Then he literally choked himself to break his chain! After that, he hasn't seen that choker, and come to think of it, I don't even know where it is. He is now wearing his old black spiked collar, soon going to need a new one, we have it on the last hole right now!!

But from what I have heard, the prong collars are safer.

From what I understand prong collars are only safer for certain breeds, those with muscular necks. If they have not got muscular necks, I'm told choker collars are better.