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-   -   Gas/bloat question (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=85460)

SuperWanda May 13th, 2014 10:19 AM

Gas/bloat question
 
Hi - we took our 13.5 year old husky (Timber) in to the emergency vet last night. She seemed very uncomfortable and was drinking more water than usual. She did vomit (mainly water with a few food pieces) a few times, but for the most part she seemed uncomfortable and would continue to go outside. It looked like she was trying to vomit but nothing was coming out. Because I was worried she may have a lot of gas we took her in and they did an x-ray. She had a good amount of gas in her tummy (which was empty) but no torsion. They tried to give her some anti-gas medication but threw that up so they kept her overnight. This morning they said she looked good and want to try some water and canned food (although I doubt she will eat it) and see if she can hold that down before sending her home.

She has become a very picky eater and I typically home cook for my two dogs but she seems to get itchy on poultry so I recently tried some raw patties from Carnivora (rabbit, bison, green tripe and small amounts of beef offal) She seemed to be doing fairly well on that (no itchy problems and good digestion) but last night I gave her a cooked beef stew with carrot, celery and barley. I wonder if the barley gave her the gas and she shouldn't have grains at all? I also gave her a salmon oil capsule.

They will keep her there this morning. If she continues to have trouble (not keeping water or food down) they could give her some barium and look at the large intestine more closely. No sign of blockage but large intestine was very full. Small intestine, not so much. They could also do blood work but she had a full panel done mid-march. Everything looked good for her age. Her urea was very slightly elevated and she had a urine test (specific gravity) done just this past weekend. It was slightly lower than normal but nothing to worry about. Her liver enzymes are slightly elevated but again, very normal for her age and not at a level hat would indicate liver or kidney disease.

Is it better in these cases to stick with grain free foods? Is raw okay? I am new to raw feeding but the reason I started is that she seems to not enjoy my cooked food as much anymore. If I did give her rare beef, she liked that the most so I decided to try the raw patties.

Lynne&Co. May 13th, 2014 06:53 PM

Sorry to hear Timber has been unwell. Sounds like the vet is taking good care of the immediate medical issue. With regards to feeding raw, in my experience, vets tend to have a negative attitude and try to persuade pet owners towards commercial food. I feed raw to both my dogs and have had good results. My 11 year old weim had chronic diarrhea for a year before I finally switched to raw and have never looked back. His teeth are clean, okay breath for an old guy and his coat is shiny even during the winter. Lots of commercially prepared raw suppliers out there now too so you don't have to do it all yourself :thumbs up

MaxaLisa May 14th, 2014 02:29 AM

I hope that this is just a bump in the road, sounds like she was in that bloat/pre-bloat stage, which is pretty scary! Gut infections can also do that and cause blockage.

Is she home now??? If those liver enzymes increase, I would worry first about the anaplasmosis before kidney issues :(

Definitely would ditch the barley/grains. IF things are not moving through her system, I would also not feed raw, since that allows the food to sit in the digestive tract and creates an environment where the bacteria can grow. I suspect that she would do better with the raw than the grains though, may have to give it a try.

I hope that she is home and feeling better!

SuperWanda May 14th, 2014 10:28 AM

Thanks for both of your replies.

She is home now, wouldn't eat anything at the vet so I picked her up at noon. She was very tired and slept until 5pm. I gave her some cooked ground lamb with fat strained and squash. That seemed to sit well so she had some more at 8pm. Seems back to normal this morning. Has pooped and is peeing normally.

MaxaLisa, I thought that raw or fresh cooked goes through the digestive system faster? Maybe I have that wrong. The one thing I do notice with the raw patties is the very small, hard poops which seem abnormal to me. The last thing I want to do is constipate her so if I continue down that road I will always add veggies like squash, green beans, leafy greens to give some fiber but I don't know if that is as good as the insoluble fiber found in grains although I will stop that just in case it promotes the gas. She generally hasn't had many tummy issues in the past so this surprised me.

She was tested for tick disease and all is negative so that is good.

MaxaLisa May 15th, 2014 01:39 AM

Bleh, typed out my reply and had accidentally turned off my wifi!

Raw, mostly because of the bone, can be constipating, depending on the dog. My girl here has motility issues that were very pronounced when I was feeding the commercial raw patties. Now she just gets homecooked meat with veggies, with some extra soluble fiber. If raw stays in the gut, bacteria can multiply and back up into the bile ducts. I'm guessing it can also produce extra gas. I know that many pancreatitis dogs cannot tolerate raw. So, like you are doing, you just have to figure out what works best for her. I think grains are a huge culprit.

I've been using more raw goat's milk here, and canned Tripett, to get my girl eating regularly.

Glad though that she seems back to normal and that you're figuring out what works best for her. Great on the clear tick test!

SuperWanda June 9th, 2014 05:28 PM

Thanks for your input! I am back to cooking for both dogs as something turned her off of the raw. It was strange because she didn't seem to want any cooked food for some time. Do you think the raw green tripe is okay? I still give both dogs the raw tripe patties which is essentially frozen grass. I can't really detect any stomach lining which is kind of strange because I thought that green tripe was the stomach lining and the contents. They seem to love it even though it smells like sour barnyard :yuck:

We are all doing pretty good right now. Our older one is still very weak in the hind end but we continue on despite my continued worry.

Hope all is well with you and Jazz!

Barkingdog June 9th, 2014 07:27 PM

[QUOTE=SuperWanda;1066147]Thanks for both of your replies.

She is home now, wouldn't eat anything at the vet so I picked her up at noon. She was very tired and slept until 5pm. I gave her some cooked ground lamb with fat strained and squash. That seemed to sit well so she had some more at 8pm. Seems back to normal this morning. Has pooped and is peeing normally.

MaxaLisa, I thought that raw or fresh cooked goes through the digestive system faster? Maybe I have that wrong. The one thing I do notice with the raw patties is the very small, hard poops which seem abnormal to me. The last thing I want to do is constipate her so if I continue down that road I will always add veggies like squash, green beans, leafy greens to give some fiber but I don't know if that is as good as the insoluble fiber found in grains although I will stop that just in case it promotes the gas. She generally hasn't had many tummy issues in the past so this surprised me.

She was tested for tick disease and all is negative so that is good.[/QUOTE]

You should feed her small meals I had a Standard Poodle and they're known to get bloat so I was told to feed my 3 small meal a day. .I hope she will get better soon. It's so hard seeing a pet getting old and sick.

MaxaLisa June 13th, 2014 08:22 PM

I fed Jazz some pre-made raw when she was younger, and she just stopped eating it. She won't be up to raw for some time, so I am home-cooking now. Funny how they change. I find that she eats a lot better if I but some warm water in there to help bring out the smells, so maybe that has something to do with it. Oh, and a bit of salt. I generally feed a very low sodium diet, so there is enough room to use some salt.

I was giving canned Trippet (sp?) for awhile to help her eat, never tried the real stuff. I hear that if it smells really bad, then it's the real stuff! I hope yours are stilll doing well on it!

I'm glad that things are still going fairly well. I know what you mean about the ongoing worry. I had that with my seniors. If things gets bad enough there, or there is any type of crisis, don't forget to try doxy, just for the heck of trying doxy. It helps almost everything. I had my girl on it for her last 6 months or so, because she had paw knuckling, and weird issues. It also helps weird forms of arthritis. I was just talking to a a K9 Dermatologist the other day about what a miracle drug it is.

But overall, it sounds like things are holding their own, and we gotta be thankful for that! There's a slim chance that we might have turned a corner with Jazz's IBD, I don't want to jinx anything though! We'll just keep crossing our fingers for all of them :fingerscr

SuperWanda July 8th, 2014 02:46 PM

Thanks Barkingdog and MaxaLisa,

I already give two meals a day and have tried 3 in the past but difficult at this age. I find it very hard to get them to eat in the morning now as they tend to have a major sleep in most days.

unfortunately, Timber had major tummy issues last night until 3am. She was throwing up mainly mucous with a little food and was excessively thirsty again. I tried giving ice chips instead of water. No issues with bloat this time but I just wish I knew what was causing these bouts to come on. She does get really itchy and red on her tummy so I wonder if it was an allergic reaction. I still give certain foods I am not sure if she is allergic to like beef and sweet potato. I already don't give poultry and there are other things I get suspicious about. I purchased a whole bucket of vetri-science vitamins so wondered if it was that or perhaps it is the green tripe? Hard to know. Perhaps she just got a bug or something but because she is an older dog, I always think the worst. Seems okay now, just tired so will try a little squash and bison meat which I know isn't an issue for her. I can get elk, bison and lamb so maybe should stay away from beef and poultry. Can a dog even be allergic to sweet potato? It's one of my suspect foods. I always find myself wanted to add so much variety in their diets but maybe it's too much. :confused:

I'm glad your Jazz is feeling better with regards to her IBD. That must be hard to deal with. Shiloh used to get bouts of colitis and I don't think I ever figured out what caused it.

I have to admit that I am a little worn out with my senior dog care giving. I am a person who worries a lot and I find myself constantly worried about the future, feel sad about what used to be. I am at home and I try to be here as much as I can for them. I do wish to get away on a holiday but just can't think of a way I am comfortable leaving these two. Can't really take them any where since it is too hot and Shiloh has trouble going in the car with her weak back. I also don't want to burden anyone since Shiloh tends to wake up in the night and I worry they might get sick when I'm away. I know I should do things for myself but it just gets harder and harder. I don't know a lot of other people in our friend/family circle who make their pets a priority like I do so I feel a little overwhelmed. I'm probably putting too much pressure on myself to be a perfect dog mom :laughing:

MaxaLisa July 8th, 2014 03:14 PM

I think that you are pretty much the perfect dog mom :dog: There are some of us certifiable crazy dog ladies out there who do turn everything upside down for them.

Having been through the senior dog thing not that long ago, I really understand what you mean. Max was very ill for the last year, and for a handful of reasons, couldn't be left alone much his last 8 months. I was very fortunate that they let me bend the rules and bring him to work with me. I would arrange shopping early in the morning or late in the evening so that he could wait in the car. Summer was very very difficult. His last summer though, I was able to rent a house by the coast, and he and I hung out. It was bittersweet.

The constant caregiving and the worry is such a stress - we sometimes put so much responsibiity on ourselves that it is just not fair to us, though we do it anyway. Max had reached a point where he was having trouble dealing with the meds and all of his protocol, and I physically wasn't able to do more, so I had to back off. I knew what that probably meant, but we didn't have much choice. He had a few good months, before his major decline, and he had to leave. You have to follow your instinct, and also be kind to yourself.

It's a balance, and right now it's *really* hard to find the right balance. There is no right or wrong here, but you do have to take care of yourself in the process :2huggers:

MaxaLisa July 8th, 2014 03:28 PM

[QUOTE=SuperWanda;1067025]......
unfortunately, Timber had major tummy issues last night until 3am. She was throwing up mainly mucous with a little food and was excessively thirsty again. I tried giving ice chips instead of water. No issues with bloat this time but I just wish I knew what was causing these bouts to come on. She does get really itchy and red on her tummy so I wonder if it was an allergic reaction. I still give certain foods I am not sure if she is allergic to like beef and sweet potato. I already don't give poultry and there are other things I get suspicious about. I purchased a whole bucket of vetri-science vitamins so wondered if it was that or perhaps it is the green tripe? Hard to know. Perhaps she just got a bug or something but because she is an older dog, I always think the worst. Seems okay now, just tired so will try a little squash and bison meat which I know isn't an issue for her. I can get elk, bison and lamb so maybe should stay away from beef and poultry. Can a dog even be allergic to sweet potato? It's one of my suspect foods. I always find myself wanted to add so much variety in their diets but maybe it's too much. :confused:

I'm glad your Jazz is feeling better with regards to her IBD. That must be hard to deal with. Shiloh used to get bouts of colitis and I don't think I ever figured out what caused it......[/QUOTE]

I'm discovering that Jazz's environmental allergies are probably contributing to her stomach issues in some way. I don't know if it's histamine overload or what. She was having tremors from eating, and I did a trial with Benadryl and it made a huge difference. Since she is young, I am going to start allergy shots with her...

Here's a weird thing that I learned.... if there is a clostridium perfringens issue (common cause of food poisoning, also many dogs carry this in their gut), if you eat *undercooked* sweet potatoes with meat, it can flair the organism. How weird is that????? The sweet potatoes have a trypsin inhibitor in them, that prevents the meat from breaking down, which somehow feeds the clostridium. Now, why would I know such a weird thing? Jazz was eating beef and SP when she had her flair of C Perf. and I went googling. I was microwaving it, and I know it wasn't completely cooked. So, moral is, make sure the SP is completely completely cooked.....

Of all things, I have Jazz on lamb and either steamed turnips (recommended by the dermatologist) or a bit of cauliflower just because she likes it on occassion.

Jazz is allergic to white potatoes. I'm sure dogs can be allergic to sweet potatoes, it's an item that was listed on her allergy test. But she didn't test allergic to it. There are like several different types of SP - aside from the clostridium issue, oddly, she only did well on the garnet SP, not the other versions. The nutritionist that I was talking to said that Jazz is not the only dog that had that issue, which is kinda funny.

Max had that red tummy issue, that I never resolved. I'm sure it was some kind of sensitivity. I gave him some quercitin in his diet, but, with all his issues, we were so limited with what we could do, and it seemed that he reacted to almost anything that he ate. The internist thought that he probably also harbored some pathogenic e.coli.

I've always had good luck with those vetri-science vitamins, but I'm sure some dogs out there don't do well on them. I've just started Jazz back on them, to see if she can tolerate them.

For Max's tummy, I syrnged some baking soda and water in his mouth, and it really made him feel better, kept his tummy from feeling bloated, and kept him from panting after meals. I'm doing the same with Jazz. Her internist says that as long as it is helping, that's better than adding something like zantac, at least for her, since she is overly sensitive.

Easier said than done, but do give yourself a break. We can do a lot with diet and supplements and care, but some times things are just the way they are. Knowing what to fret about and what we can't change is really hard though. I'm pretty obsessive about things here too.....

SuperWanda August 7th, 2014 05:55 PM

Thanks MaxaLisa. You have such interesting information. I am currently home cooking again and no tummy issues. I stay away from rice, poultry sweet potato and she seems okay. She really likes butternut squash and has no issues with it, that and pumpkin. I am going to start a new post because just yesterday she came down with vestibulitis. My brother's senior dog has had it twice. We are hoping the symptoms subside in a few days and are to contact our vet if she is still having issues. If it's not one thing it's another!

Longblades August 8th, 2014 07:57 AM

Wow, it's a fluke that I even read this thread as I've no first hand experience with bloat. But MaxaLisa, I've just gotten some very interesting information from you.

My boy has seasonal environmental allergies and out of the blue we have gone through a very scary Inflammatory Bowel Disease episode. My Lab lost over 20% of his body weight and we were terrified we were going to lose him entirely. Traditional Western Veterinary was not helping at all. Holistic Veterinary, acupuncture and Chinese Medicine is working and I say has saved his life. He is just this morning branching into a more varied diet from his recovery diet of - what? Nothing other than cooked ground turkey and cooked sweet potato. They have to be cooked so we can mix digestive enzymes in, which we are still doing but tapering off on. But this wonderful Holistic Vet (not many of them around) says we can feed the sweet potato raw if we eventually go to a raw diet.

Just a few months ago I would have said my dog's stomach is made of cast iron. He never had issues. Now, in hindsight, I see little wee, tiny clues I overlooked. So I will definitely be checking the cooked or not cooked sweet potato information out. [B] Do you have a link for that?[/B]

Oh, and this Vet hates microwaved food. She strongly suggests we cook the sweet potato in the oven, which we do, and oh boy, it's so good I swipe a few fingerfuls myself when it comes out. We are feeding a lot of sweet potato right now so the oven is more expedient anyway.

I saw the more recent thread on Timber this morning, good thoughts for Timber. And Jazz.

MaxaLisa August 10th, 2014 03:52 PM

SW, I'm glad that the diet is working out! Not very glad at all to hear about the vestibular symptoms :(

LB, isn't it weird how we trip over things at certain times? I'm so glad that you found a good holistic vet to help!! I was talking to the internal med vet the other day, and he was saying how you find one thing that works for one dog, and it doesn't work for the next, that all these issues can be so frustrating!

I just deleted a bunch of that stuff off the computer, but Dr. Google helped me out here. Here's a quick blurb that is very succinct. Looks they are talking about a specific strain of C Perf, but, additionally what concerned me is the interference in protein digestion when combined with the sweet potato. Since I last posted, I discovered that I think turnips contain these things too, which puts me in a quandry. Not sure if adding digestive enzymes is sufficient, but I have been doing that here too.

[QUOTE]Other Infections caused by C. perfringens

Enteritis Necroticans

Necrotizing enteritis (enteritis necroticans, or pigbel) is caused by toxin produced by type C strains of C. perfringens following ingestion of a high-protein meal in conjunction with trypsin inhibitors (e.g., in sweet potatoes) by a susceptible host who has limited intestinal proteolytic activity. This disease has been reported among children and adults in New Guinea.
[url]http://new.dhh.louisiana.gov/assets/oph/Center-PHCH/Center-CH/infectious-epi/EpiManual/ClostridiumPerfringensManual.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

General info: [url]http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-trypsin-inhibitor.htm[/url]

I'm not a big fan of microwaving - in fact, only used it for the sweet potatoes, because Jazz did best on partially cooked. That's when I tripped over this stuff when she had her C Perf infection. This study tells what's needed to inactivate them: [url]http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1024476513899[/url]

I guess a bunch of plants have them, and the key is whether they are "heat stable", which I think means that they cannot be inactivated: [url]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031942273800135[/url]

Longblades August 10th, 2014 06:09 PM

Guess I will have to delve further into this. You second last link specifically says microwave baking was an effective inhibitor. But I'm not sure if they mean as opposed to no baking at all or do they mean as opposed to oven baking, which is not mentionned. I'm thinking they mean as opposed to no baking at all but it's something to question. We see the Vet again in two weeks and are cooking till then anyway.

MaxaLisa August 11th, 2014 12:38 AM

Looks like I have the paper I linked to above, as well as these:
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12602936[/url]
[url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.2740580116/abstract[/url]
If you'd like any of them, pm me your email address. The last link though may contain what you need: "Brown rice, sweet potato, taro and giant swamp taro contained moderate amounts of TI, which was fully inactivated when the boiled or baked food was soft enough to eat."

This article is about soy, but talks about some of the issues. I guess one noted is also that it's not known how much this would affect dogs, as compared to other species:
[url]http://jn.nutrition.org/content/116/5/920.full.pdf[/url]

Okay, had to do a quick google - it does look like it was studied in soy, if they are inactivated when kibble is processed:
[url]http://ainfo.cnptia.embrapa.br/digital/bitstream/item/72402/1/ID-33950.pdf[/url]

Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that I wouldn't feed root vegetables with these things raw. I bet some dogs might have the digestion to do it, and maybe some types of veggies have less of this stuff, depending on where it's grown. I've got a dog losing muscle here, and now I'm wondering if it's the undercooked turnips....how ironic I missed this with her!!!

Longblades August 18th, 2014 07:33 PM

MaxaLisa, thank you. Sorry for not posting back sooner, have been running around like mad with various things lately. I am checking these links out right now as we head back to the Vet on Wednesday.

MaxaLisa August 20th, 2014 05:01 AM

Good luck! I've never had an IBD dog before. Have dealt with plenty of digestive issues, but this stuff is very tricky.


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