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-   -   City of Toronto Shelters (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=9266)

Dukieboy November 9th, 2004 12:57 PM

City of Toronto Shelters
 
Hurray!

City of Toronto appears to have reversed its decision not to adopt out the pitbulls it picks up or are turned in. They are posting them for adoption once again on thier Animal Services site.

The Mook November 9th, 2004 03:15 PM

AND...reported in the Toronto Globe & Mail today: The Toronto Humane Society will be appealing the ruling that "Bandit", the PB/labX that inflicted bites requiring over 200 stitches to 3 year old Daniel Collins face in August 2003, be destroyed by November 15.

I'm hoping THS isn't just giving Bryant more ammo and further inflaming an already volatile situation for all dog owners in this province.

Schwinn November 9th, 2004 03:19 PM

If Bandit is the one I'm thinking of, my wife was watching the news and THS was refusing to let anyone near the dog because he was so friendly, and they did not want anything to happen to him. Apparently, in the background on the report, you could see him playing happily with one of the workers.

mastifflover November 9th, 2004 03:22 PM

I personally think that he is getting backed into a corner and is being challenged by the media. I think now is the time to start inudating him and his cronies again with anti ban emails. Do you think the media would have been aware of all of these things if it was not for people like us who are constantly emailing media, MPP's and anyone else who we think can help. I think we should take the last day as a sign that maybe all of this is starting to pay off, good thing we are persistent. I meant to email MB.

Schwinn November 9th, 2004 03:39 PM

[QUOTE=mastifflover]I personally think that he is getting backed into a corner and is being challenged by the media. I think now is the time to start inudating him and his cronies again with anti ban emails. Do you think the media would have been aware of all of these things if it was not for people like us who are constantly emailing media, MPP's and anyone else who we think can help. I think we should take the last day as a sign that maybe all of this is starting to pay off, good thing we are persistent. I meant to email MB.[/QUOTE]

Good point. And we have six days before the next debate! By the way, anyone know how to find out the exact date for the debates? If you look on the schedule, it seems to just put it on, and leave it there until it actually happens.

Akeeter November 9th, 2004 05:53 PM

I think that THS is proving animal welfare grps Can't be trusted
 
to do the right thing.

I don't care what's being said now about Bandit (nor do I trust it either). Vets on staff with THS, long time staffers, & others all came to the conclusion that Bandit could Not be re-habbed. (Are you sure that's why the dog is under wraps, & away from public contact?-He's So sweet & playful?) When these people's opinion's didn't match with what THS Wanted to hear...Out they were put. It's sounds a lot like M.B. to me... :rolleyes:

I don't think this dog will ever be trustworthy around children. And offhand, I can't think of a single place that he could spend the rest of his life where there will be Absolutley No Children :confused: -Ever.

And it makes us look like hypocrits! Punish the Deed, not the Breed? It looks from here like Nobody ever gets punished for anything, & we can't solve the problem of unsafe dogs by doing unproven 'Re-Hab' & hoping it takes this time.
This was Bandit's second bite on a child. His first serious one,- but it was his 2nd. bite.
I don't even think this is fair to Bandit. What kind of a life is he living? (Off camera, I mean?) Poor dog is just a means to an end. :sad:

Schwinn November 9th, 2004 06:15 PM

I'll be honest, I don't know the story, so I really don't have an opinion. My understanding that the authorities were coming down harder because he is part pit, not because of the bite. But again, this is from a 5 second conversation that was mentioned to me in passing.

Akeeter November 9th, 2004 10:17 PM

To be quite honest, I think it's all (Human)politics.
 
marking territory, & who can pee higher on the pole. THS lost the war on animal services for Toronto. Now it's defiant, & goes it's own way at every opportunity. (I've heard a big 6 figure sum for legal costs for the Bandit case. :eek: During that time people were asked 'not to bring animals to THS if they could avoid it'. And some talk of cutbacks in the spay/neuter programs.) This is supposed to be for the Animals!? :sad:

But after what Animal Services (the City Pound) did..pulling all the Pits out of adoption before anybody had said anything to make them do it..Yuck! :mad:

LL1 November 10th, 2004 09:17 AM

Not cutbacks on spay and neuter - THS hasn't been altering most of the dogs for awhile. Has nothing to do with money, of which they have ALOT. Tim thinks altering is cruel.

[QUOTE=Akeeter] And some talk of cutbacks in the spay/neuter programs.) This is supposed to be for the Animals!? :sad:

[/QUOTE]

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 09:28 AM

I have to say I was not overly impressed with animal services. I had to take George there for his final 3 days of quarantine and did not find the staff there compasionate or very caring. I did not want to leave him there but I did not really have a choice. This is not somewhere that I would reccommend I was at the Exhibition location. I really felt like they did not care. So the food I purchased to donate went to THS were I find the staff much more concerned about the animals. I can't comment on Bandit because I don't know the whole story

LL1 November 10th, 2004 09:38 AM

My experience with TAS, all locations has been very good. It could be because you were surrendering the dog. Why did you quarantine him there and not at home?

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 10:06 AM

George was with me for almost all of the quarantine. But I would not have been able to take him back during the week. I also wanted to stop me and Buddy from getting more attached to him. Because he was a great little guy. But it was not safe to have him around anybody but us, and I could not risk someone else getting bit.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 10:48 AM

That could be why. If you were there to volunteer or donate something it would be different I am sure, a friend of mine works there and is a great person. They see animals surrendered all the time, and it's hard to remain upbeat. Will the rescue be picking him up to euthanize him when the quarantine is over? If not, that could also make them be more jaded.

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 11:00 AM

No the rescue is not in the city so I have signed the order and it is not like this boy was not given a few chances. When I agreed to take him I was his last chance and he bit my friend totally unprovoked for a total of nine stitches. She was playing with him and he just turned around and bit her. I explained the whole situation to them. It is not like I was there to turn over an perfectly healthy non aggressive dog. This dog had problems and was going to be put down by the rescue before I took him and gave him a chance. It was quite obvious I was very upset at having to do this and they were so icy.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 11:28 AM

I know she is outside the city, I am just surprised she wouldn't pick him up after the quarantine and be with him to be euthanized.

I think that could be what is bothering the staff, just a guess.

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 12:00 PM

Personally I dont think they really cared either way this was just a job to them. That is the impression I got the moment I walked in there before they even knew why I was there. When I took him she gave me all of his records adn I signed his adoption papers and we decided that I would take care of it if it came to this.

Dukieboy November 10th, 2004 12:04 PM

I think putting the dog down was something worked through with Toronto Public Health? If so Animal Services should be aware of what was going on with the dog. As for them being frosty because Mastiff couldn't be there for the euthansia thats ridiculous. I have been through it twice with two of my animals when it was thier time and it is emotionally draining and exhausting.

The Mayor has made his position clear about where he stands on this pitbull thing, taking the lead, blindly from the Province. Animal Services should not be in the least bit pissed, surprised, or frosty when people drop off thier pitbulls. Our so called leaders have put people in impossible positions.

The folks at Animal Services are employed by the City and are there to serve and work with the public.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 12:07 PM

Ok oh, sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were fostering for them.

I have watched many surrenders at THS and they are cold as well, I think most places are.

Dukieboy November 10th, 2004 12:23 PM

I really think that this proposed BSL, all the hype in the media has put some people in impossible situations. No one wants thier dogs or kids near our dogs, landlords want them out. People hurdle insults and threats in the streets/parks. I can't imagine the insecurity I would feel with the BSL looming if I was in a rental situation. I think folks who may have adopted these dogs had no idea all this was coming. Further, some people really cannot afford obedience training. Some people just don't have the conviction or personal assertiveness required to tell buddy over there he is way overracting to the dog. These dogs require lots especially if they have had a previous owner and with the proposed BSL thrown in on top well I can see why someone might not be up to the task. People who work in the shelters and the humane need to direct thier frostyness in the appropriate direction. IMHO ofcourse

That direction would be Mayor David Miller and Attorney General Michael Bryant.

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 12:46 PM

Originally that was what we were going to do but she had nobody who was willing to try and I was. So she signed him over to me and I said I would deal with whatever came up

LL1 November 10th, 2004 12:48 PM

No - the quarantine is by law for reported bites, not the decision for euthanasia, that is up to the owner. People in shelters and rescues have strong feelings on surrenders and euthanasia and quarantines. For paid employees yes it is their job but they're not about to be happy about it.


[QUOTE=Dukieboy] I think putting the dog down was something worked through with Toronto Public Health? If so Animal Services should be aware of what was going on with the dog. As for them being frosty because Mastiff couldn't be there for the euthansia thats ridiculous. I have been through it twice with two of my animals when it was thier time and it is emotionally draining and exhausting.

[/QUOTE]

Gazoo November 10th, 2004 12:56 PM

[QUOTE=Akeeter]to do the right thing.

I don't care what's being said now about Bandit (nor do I trust it either). Vets on staff with THS, long time staffers, & others all came to the conclusion that Bandit could Not be re-habbed. (Are you sure that's why the dog is under wraps, & away from public contact?-He's So sweet & playful?) When these people's opinion's didn't match with what THS Wanted to hear...Out they were put. It's sounds a lot like M.B. to me... :rolleyes:

I don't think this dog will ever be trustworthy around children. And offhand, I can't think of a single place that he could spend the rest of his life where there will be Absolutley No Children :confused: -Ever.

And it makes us look like hypocrits! Punish the Deed, not the Breed? It looks from here like Nobody ever gets punished for anything, & we can't solve the problem of unsafe dogs by doing unproven 'Re-Hab' & hoping it takes this time.
This was Bandit's second bite on a child. His first serious one,- but it was his 2nd. bite.
I don't even think this is fair to Bandit. What kind of a life is he living? (Off camera, I mean?) Poor dog is just a means to an end. :sad:[/QUOTE]


Good post. I agree.

IMHO Not all dogs can be re-habbed, some will always be unsafe, they are animals with inherently aggressive tendencies that no training will fix.

HS's that think they rehab a vicious dog aren't realistic or fair to the dogs or future victims. Sometimes euthanasia is the only way to assure no more attacks will happen, regardless of breed.

Children ARE more important and valuable than dogs. period.

HS's that are no kill are presenting a negative image of irresponsibility to the public that only hinders fighting breed bans.

Dukieboy November 10th, 2004 01:09 PM

I'm not looking for happy but frosty isn't acceptable either. A decision had to be made. The dog was an unpredictable person biter. I guess Animal Services wouldn't be privy to the personal struggle Mastiff had with this but I think if I worked in that particular area I might be able to imagine how difficult it might be to surrender a dog. As we all know, the City is currently in court with the Humane over a so called unpredictable biter and we both know the Citys position on that one.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 01:13 PM

I disagree, you'd be hard pressed to find a rescue or shelter that would be anything but frosty with a surrender, and with a shelter, particularly one that they are now taking in to quarantine and euthanize. I know the staff there, they are wonderful people, and it would not be aimed at Mastifflover, but at surrenders in general and surrenders to be quarantined and euthanized in particular I would imagine.

Dukieboy November 10th, 2004 01:19 PM

Well then I guess they should have a sit down with David and tell him thier position. Nothing wrong with a little advocacy coming from within.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 02:28 PM

I'm not sure what you mean?

Dukieboy November 10th, 2004 03:07 PM

I mean, if the staff at City of Toronto, Animal Services are perturbed by surrenders they need to make thier employer aware of it so that he can take a position that might help curb this trend. (surrenders) Further if the staff are peed because people are turning over thier animals they should ask themselves why its happening. They haven't posted pitbulls for adoption for sometime now. I noticed they posted a couple over weekend but for the last month or two they weren't. So if the City's position was they weren't fit for adoption, how can they frown on surrenders? I'm not getting it.
David Miller, the Mayor, had stated publicly that he is pleased with how swiftly the Provincial government has moved on this issue(BSL). This might be a huge leap but I think he is saying that he supports the proposed ban and that means he supports the eventual extermination of so called "pitbull" breeds in this province. So if people are turning thier pitties in left, right and centre and City staff are peed, they have thier boss to thank. His co-operaton whether overt or silent with the Province is responsible for it.

LL1 November 10th, 2004 03:19 PM

Oh ok. I work with shelters all the time as I run a rescue. No staff at any shelter anywhere are happy with surrenders, that's just a fact. Before or after the draft Bill, same thing. Same as rescues. Has nothing to do with Pitbulls. Or with city staff specifically.

And surrenders, especially to be euthanized, are more upsetting. For example if I had a dog in my rescue that I decided to euthanize, I would take it to a vet and euthanize it. I would not surrender it to a shelter.




[QUOTE=Dukieboy]I mean, if the staff at City of Toronto, Animal Services are perturbed by surrenders they need to make thier employer aware of it so that he can take a position that might help curb this trend. (surrenders) Further if the staff are peed because people are turning over thier animals they should ask themselves why its happening. They haven't posted pitbulls for adoption for sometime now. I noticed they posted a couple over weekend but for the last month or two they weren't. So if the City's position was they weren't fit for adoption, how can they frown on it.[/QUOTE]

sammiec November 10th, 2004 03:21 PM

Good point Dukieboy.

I can see how the staff are upset about taking in surrendered animals, I wouldn't be too happy to see yet another dog walk through the door if I worked there either. That's not necessarily always the fault of the person surrendering. Mastifflover has made a very important decision, and she made the right one. If her friend had been a child that came up and pet George and he lashed out unprovoked - instead of her friends arm it might have been a child's face... imagine what that would have meant!

IMHO, unless the person at the shelter is privy to the information about the circumstances and why this dog is to be euthanized they should keep their attitudes to themselves. Sure I bet it's the hardest thing in the world to be pleasant to a person when they leave the dog... but being civil and happy are very different.

I'm not trying to be witchy.. maybe some people just don't deal well with being there seeing a dying animal, maybe there are others reasons out of their control. It's really not our place to judge I don't think...

mastifflover November 10th, 2004 03:34 PM

I would not be happy seeing people surrendering their dogs either. But if the person surrendering the dog told the story of why I would and could be compassionate. Would they rather give the village idiot more ammo if this dog bit a child and caused serious damage then I would be called irresponsible knowing that I have a dog that would bite unprevoked. I told them the story which they really did not seem to give a sh** about. If you dont like your job that is not my problem go find another one. Or if my dog bit their child I guess they would not have a problem with that, I would. I by the way was trying to tell them how not to get bit when taking him out of his cage but they looked at me like We Can Handle It. Well I hope nobody got bit because George feels really safe in a crate and oh well they know what they are doing not my problem.


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