Clean teeth, stinky breath, high protein
 

Our two dogs were eating Nutro and Iams when we got them (different times), and one now deceased was eating Nutro when younger. All three of them had surprisingly almost entirely odor-free breath. All three of them were switch over to Orijen adult (different times) using the Eagle Pack digestive enzymes powder to help the switch. Eventually I added in fish oil, Tripett, and plain yogurt. All three of them developed really stinky breath very quickly after the switch...maybe a week? Not a fishy smell, more of a rotting carcass smell. :yuck: They have all always had clean teeth from veterinary cleanings. No teeth brushing, but I did get some teeth gel to try out from the vet called Maxi/Guard OraZn.

I have 4 more cans of Tripett, then I am going to cut it out for a couple weeks to see if it is contributing to the stinky breath. I'm going to cut out the fish oil this week to see about that. I'm pretty sure it is the Orijen more than anything. Someone suggested to me that all brands of high protein kibbles can/will cause stinky breath, and suggested adding raw meaty bones to help clean the mouth. I always add water to the food - enough to cover the kibble - as I understand this helps to flush any unused protein from the system making the high protein easier on the kidneys. No idea how true that is... :laughing:

I'm considering switching to Acana kibble, but would miss the wholesale prices I pay for the Orijen. :laughing:

Is it the high-protein or is it Orijen in particular? Do dogs on other brands of high protein kibble have the same problem? Why does this happen?

What else could it be? Any suggestions?

Come to think of it, my manchester developed really stinky breath on Orijen, and I realize it's now better on Acana........:shrug:

Both of my boys have really stinky breath. They were on orijen at one time, but tummies couldn't handle it. I don't think it was the amount of protein that made them sick because they are on a home cooked diet now which is even higher, but they both still have stinky breath. Our vets say it's because they both have tummy issues (colitis for Thorin and gastro-intestinal sensitivities for Nookie).

Interesting to hear Marty!

Rgeurts, I have heard that tummy issues can make for really stinky breath. All three of these dogs have stomachs of steel, with no known digestive issues. Nice, healthy coats and normal blood panels. I might add in a digestive enzyme product to see if that helps at all.

My dog had really foul breath ... and really foul stuff out the other end ... on both Orijen and the grain free versions of Acana that we tried (we tried the Pacifica, the Ranchlands, and the Prairie - fish, red meat, and chicken in other words).

The vet suggested that the problem was twofold - too high a protein level for the dog as a family pet (back end) and no "good carbs" like oats for the tummy to cut out the offensive breath. He is a fan of Orijen but indicates that in his opinion it is good for working dogs but too rich for family dogs.

She did well on the regular Acana (with grains...and lower protein than the grain free) except that she did not chew it - same with Orijen and other Acanas.

We rotate a few similar foods for her - TLC (coming out of rotation..she is no longer interested in it...mixing it with Canidae so she'll finish the bag!), Canidae ALS, and Royal Canin Medium 25 are the three in rotation right now ... seeking a replacement for the TLC in the future...maybe Go!Natural....that worked well in the past

She does best on Royal Canin IMO. Fewer poops, softer coat, no bad breath, no farts, plus not eating everything in sight (ie: leaves, garbage, my kids underwear) when she's on that blend. The more holistic, the more grain free, and the higher protein....increases poops, stinky breath, and stinky farts and has her seeking out other non-desirable food on walks, etc. At least that's how it works in my dog.

Plus, I live close to the border and can get the Royal Canin - made in Canada - for $42 / 30lb bag at Petsmart in Buffalo :usa: vs $59 at Petsmart in Fort Erie :ca:. Canidae is $46 in the USA and $57 here....not as big a spread...but still disgraceful.

It is probably the Orijin, My dog is on it and his breath smells like a toilet. He has a long nose and a dry mouth typical to sight hounds which are common for having bad teeth as well which probably doesnt help as he sometimes gets food jammed in the back of his teeth. I might switch to Acana just to see if it helps.

kmoose, that's absolutely despicable that you have to pay more for a Canadian-made product IN Canada vs buying the same Canadian product in the USA! I would be emailing the manufacturer, or maybe Petsmart?

Cell, I'm thinking the same as you. With the price difference from Orijen to Acana, a person could add in some raw meats.

I wonder if it's just Orijen, or if it is all high-protein kibbles?

I'm no expert on the protiens or anything like that. But I will say...my dach ruby has to be on hills prespricpt diet (K/D) for her kidney diabetes. Which is low in phosurus and protien, and high in fat. Her breath is "better" and her "poots" are less stinky.
She has smaller poops, and they are not as rank as they used to be.
I hate that she is on hills as I know its not the "best" food in the world...but given the vet said its an absolute must (and its working with her kidneys as well)...I tollerate it.
I just wanted to add my two cents that on a lower protien diet...it seems to have helped "stinky" issues. I also noticed her body smell is not as "musty" when she's dirty.
I mean...still needs a bath...but no longer want to hold her out the window when we go on a car ride. LOL

[QUOTE=renegaderuby;1021719]
I hate that she is on hills as I know its not the "best" food in the world...but given the vet said its an absolute must (and its working with her kidneys as well)...I tollerate it.
I just wanted to add my two cents that on a lower protien diet...it seems to have helped "stinky" issues. I also noticed her body smell is not as "musty" when she's dirty.
[/QUOTE]

I am no expert on pet nutrition but from years of owning dogs, I can say that the "best" food is one that your pet does well on. Good energy, good disposition, minimal itching, etc. If that happens to be Dog Chow, then so be it.

Heck, I fed my dogs "Gainsburger" in the past (remember that...it "looked" like a hamburger patty) and they loved it...it was probably just a plate of chemicals, but one of my dogs lived to 14 on it and was put down due to sudden blindness that he couldn't adapt to.

I am sure that people who rally against Science Diet, Royal Canin, and especially Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Iams etc are well intentioned. But the reality is the majority of pets eat commercially produced non holistic dog food and live happy healthy lives.

They are domestic dogs, not wolves, and are not genetically identical to wolves. Working dogs live a life closer to their wolf cousins and SHOULD be on Orijen, TOTW, or even a raw/BARF diet. Ironically though in many parts of Canada (ie: the far north) these foods aren't even available and working dogs - ie Sled Dogs - eat table scraps, throw aways from a hunt that humans would never eat, and usually some dry kibble thrown in...and typically the cheapest you can get since you are feeding 20 dogs. But the lazy furry carpet like object currently laying on your feet is hardly a working dog.

"Human Grade" meat is the one that always gets me. Dogs are not human. So why do they need "Human Grade" meat? Left to their own devices they eat garbage, cigarette butts, and even their own...well, you get my point. I worry that channelling human grade food to the 50 million dogs in the United States per year is driving up human food prices. Not to mention millions of starving people in the world that can't get food while the dogs of America dine like kings (and likely better than many of their owners).

Typically, though, dogs on a garbage and cigarette diet aren't going to be very healthy. And feeding a dog garbage is not going to help the millions of starving people in the world that can't get food. :shrug:

I do agree with you, though, that the best food for your dog is the one that they do well on. But looking for good ingredients is a start in finding a food that your dog [I]will[/I] do well on. Our dogs did okay on cheaper brands, but the coats improved, energy level went up, and poop volume went down when we switched them to Innova a number of years back. I actually prefer to feed a better food if it will decrease my vet bills in future.

I suspect the ethanol phenomenon is driving up food prices to a much greater extent than the premium dog-food industry. In the case of ethanol, the food is burned, not eaten, and the government (at least here) is trying to increase our demand for it. IMO, that's not a good trend...

[QUOTE=kmoose;1022057]...the reality is the majority of pets eat commercially produced non holistic dog food and live happy healthy lives.[/QUOTE]

The majority of dog and cat owners are also oblivious to many, many health issues. Dogs and cats don't talk, and as pets age many people think that the pet's troubles are because "he's getting older". I've been there. When I was a kid my kitty and her brother lived to 18, were outdoor rural cats, and only went to the vet when they had some sort of rotting open wound. We thought it was cute that my kitty drooled when she got older and she pulled out the fur on her back for over a decade. Back then I would have told you they lived happy, healthy lives, and now I know better.

Myka, you make an excellent point. Part of the issue is that pet owners may not be aware that excessive itching, shedding, etc is a symptom of an underlying issue. And at times that can be connected to the food they are eating.

I personally have a lot of reservations about the "holistic" pet food category, some of which I outlined above. Most importantly my biggest concern is that the benefits of this diet are largely anecdotal, and not necessarily based on science or research. Similar to the desire to shop at "Whole Foods" to get the best food for your family - sometimes branding and conjecture can get in the way of science.

That being said, I do feed some holistic food to my dog, and some what I would call high end commercial pet food. I have found the holistic brands to be hit or miss, whereas she seems to adapt to the commercial brands much easier. Again, I am talking about Royal Canin specifically here, and not the Ol Roys of the world. I recongnize that those brands are just processed chemicals and there is no way that can be good for anyone. But I think brands like Eukanaba, Science Diet, Techni-Cal, Purina Pro Plan, and the like are suitable foods should your dog react positively to it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying kmoose. I have been heavy on the grain-free bandwagon for several years now, but lately I am also wondering if maybe it's like feeding a (human) couch potato a body builder's diet.

I'm still waiting to hear if I can get Acana at wholesale pricing. If so, I'm going to give it a try. I will spend the "extra" money on feeding some raw meats. I think I'mm going to cut out the Tripett too, which I think has little or no noticeable benefits - at least in conjunction with my dogs' current diets.

I actually switched to Acana "Lamb and Apple" it has oats in it, but I add extra cooked meat, and the anal gland problem disappeared and so did the bad breath.

Wow, thanks for posting Marty!

I've never tried the Acana Lamb and Apple mainly because everyone around here either does not stock it or only has it in the small, uneconomical bags.

Maybe I'll get a sample at Bark and Fitz and see how it goes. They'll order anything you want. I still prefer to support Canadian companies, and/or buy products made in Canada if they come from Multinationals.

PS: Bark and Fitz GIVES AWAY those small sample bags that Global charges you $5 for. The stores get them for FREE.......

And this is one where the prices in Canada are comparable to those in the USA. No wonder Americans think Acana and Orijen are so expensive! They're paying Canadian prices!!!

[QUOTE=kmoose;1022057]I am no expert on pet nutrition but from years of owning dogs, I can say that the "best" food is one that your pet does well on. Good energy, good disposition, minimal itching, etc. If that happens to be Dog Chow, then so be it.

I am sure that people who rally against Science Diet, Royal Canin, and especially Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Iams etc are well intentioned. But the reality is the majority of pets eat commercially produced non holistic dog food and live happy healthy lives.

[/QUOTE]

No disrespect intended at all, kmoose, but I have to disagree. I used to be of the same belief until one of my beautiful boys developed some horrible issues which are believed to be caused (at least in part) by the food. He was on Medi-Cal Gastro for the last couple of years, and as far as we knew, was doing [B]amazing[/B] on it. No more bouts of colits, no waking up to puddles of dried bile every morning etc. Last summer, he developed bladder stones and had to have surgery for them at almost 11 yrs old. It was horrible. The clinic sent the stones to be analyzed and called us to say take him off the food right away. The ingredients were found to be a very big contributing factor. Ok, so we can live with stones. We just need to change his diet. Now that he's off that food, everything is great, right? Nope. Shortly after being taken off that food he developed a cough. We had taken him in several times. They just said he had Kennel Cough, then it was trachea irritation, etc. He coughed up a HUGE pile of mucus while we were at work one day. I immediately took him in again and they finally did an x-ray. He had a lung tumor. I won't go in to all the details, but to make an already longer story shorter, he has a very rare form of cancer that is part of a bigger, immune-related disorder.

Our holistic vet explained how kibble is processed in the body. The chemicals used along with the actual processing causes a rush of sugar in the blood stream, which feeds the cancer cells and is very hard on the digestive system which is why most dogs have to be switched from brand to brand slowly, otherwise, they end up with diarrhea a/o vomiting. He said when feeding raw or home cooked, you don't have to make that slow transition (and he's right. We have done that several times now with both of ours on the home cooked) because the foods are natural and the system can digest it much easier . Kibble has been linked to immune system disorders and cancer in dogs many times over. Had I know this, I would never have fed any of my dogs kibble. Especially the cheaper brands. Unfortunately, we don't typically learn these things until a situation arises that we have to.If the ingredients list "animal digest" instead of naming the specific animal, it could have come from a road kill or uethanised animal :yuck:
Ok, so a lot of dogs could probably eat road kill and be ok. But the euthanised animal? Nope. Think of the chemicals that are used to put an animal to "sleep".

He is one of the creators of Orijen, but still doesn't reccomend it. He helped to develope it for people who absolutely won't feed anything but kibble because at least it's a higher quality, but still not good. Sadly, we do not see the slow poisoning that kibble does to our pets over the years. As already stated, we attribute it to aging etc.

Look at this ingredient list and tell me you truly believe what you said above:

"[B]I am no expert on pet nutrition but from years of owning dogs, I can say that the "best" food is one that your pet does well on. Good energy, good disposition, minimal itching, etc. If that happens to be Dog Chow, then so be it. [/B]"

[I]Ingredients
[B]Whole grain corn[/B], [B]poultry by-product meal (could be a road kill pigeon)[/B], [B]animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols [/B[B]](could be any kind of animal. Road kill, died from disease or euthanized)[/B] (form of Vitamin E), [B]corn gluten meal[/B], [B]meat and bone meal (again, what kind of meat?)[/B], brewers rice, [B]soybean meal (extremely common allergen in dogs)[/B], barley, [B]whole grain wheat (extremely common allergen in dogs[/B]), [B]animal digest (what kind of animal[/B]?), calcium carbonate, [B]salt(could be a serious issue for dogs who are hypothyroid. Why the need for salt?)[/B], calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 2, Yellow 6), DL-Methionine, manganese sulfate, manganese proteinate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, copper proteinate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.
S-4101

[/I]

Again, the ingredients in this food are horrid. The sad thing is, there are worse foods out there. The cheaper brands who don't specify the animal used are most likely using diseased/dying and euthanised animals of all kinds. If someone tuly loves their pet and insist on kibble, even with all the studies out there against it, I would hope they would at least use a higher quality that specifically names the ingredients and stays away from the common allergens. Please don't take my word for any of this. Do your own research. There is plenty of information out there for people who are actually intersed in improving the health of ther beloved family members. It's too late for my precious Thorin :cry:
But I won't make that mistake again.

Sorry for hijacking, Myka :sorry:

As for the protein, I think it's great for working dogs/very active dogs, but I agree with the statement that it's like putting a couch potato on a body builders diet :laughing: :D

[QUOTE=kmoose;1022057]"Human Grade" meat is the one that always gets me. Dogs are not human. So why do they need "Human Grade" meat? Left to their own devices they eat garbage, cigarette butts, and even their own...well, you get my point. I worry that channelling human grade food to the 50 million dogs in the United States per year is driving up human food prices. Not to mention millions of starving people in the world that can't get food while the dogs of America dine like kings (and likely better than many of their owners).[/QUOTE]

This may seem very unimportant and even frivilous to you, but to both of my boys (and I'm sure thousands of others), it could mean the difference between being healthy or getting very ill/dying. My old boy has no immune system due to the cancer/chemo and our "baby" who is a year and a half old now has almost no immune system. Human grade means everything to them both. Things that dogs with a healthy immune system can easily tolerate could kill either of mine, not to mention parasite load. They don't have what it takes to fight off the "bad" stuff. So if someone such as yourself thinks it's bad to feed their dogs good food, or feed them like "kings", then so be it. It isn't out of your pocket. And the vet bills associated with feeding them cheap food isn't either. Again, I'm not tyring to be disrespectful, but I couldn't disagree with your way of thinking any more than I do at this point. You're right, they are not human, but that doesn't mean they deserve to be treated with any less care, love or respect. Animals are by far more loving, forgiving and innocent than the majority of people I have ever known. Just my :2cents:

[QUOTE=Rgeurts;1022267]This may seem very unimportant and even frivilous to you, but to both of my boys (and I'm sure thousands of others), it could mean the difference between being healthy or getting very ill/dying. My old boy has no immune system due to the cancer/chemo and our "baby" who is a year and a half old now has almost no immune system. Human grade means everything to them both. Things that dogs with a healthy immune system can easily tolerate could kill either of mine, not to mention parasite load. They don't have what it takes to fight off the "bad" stuff. So if someone such as yourself thinks it's bad to feed their dogs good food, or feed them like "kings", then so be it. It isn't out of your pocket. And the vet bills associated with feeding them cheap food isn't either. Again, I'm not tyring to be disrespectful, but I couldn't disagree with your way of thinking any more than I do at this point. You're right, they are not human, but that doesn't mean they deserve to be treated with any less care, love or respect. Animals are by far more loving, forgiving and innocent than the majority of people I have ever known. Just my :2cents:[/QUOTE]

It is too bad that your dogs have gone through any of this. No creature deserves that kind of discomfort or pain.

I suppose we will agree to disagree. I love my dog, and all dogs I have had in the past (yes, even the cat we had too....shrug) but I do see them as pets, not my children. There is a definate pecking order in my family, and it is humans, then the dog, then the other pets. I don't think my dog is any worse for wear as a result (she has her chin on my leg as I type this).

There was an article in the Toronto Star this summer about the trend to see animals as furry humans and not to call them "pets" but "animal companions". In this case, I thoroughy disagree with this line of thinking, although it is making the owners of boutique pet food stores very, very rich. The young guy at my local Bark and Fitz, where I do buy premium food for my dog (I don't want a sick dog nor the bills that come with it either), told me a customer spent more on her dog in one visit than he spent on Tuition last year. That is messed up in my mind.

My original point was that the best food isn't always the best for your dog. My dog was suffering on Orijen - it was obvious, and it is a "5 star". But she does well on what I may call the "4-star" foods like Merrick, Canidae, and TLC. When she was at the Vet for surgery, they gave her some Hill's prescription kibble. She had the runs for 3 days after getting home. Food or surgery? Not sure.

My brother in law fed his 2 Vizlas Iams for their whole lives, and they lived to 12 and 14 respectively with no major issues. I don't beleive the major companies are trying to kill my dog, but I do agree that perhaps they do not have maximum nutrition at heart. But they have nice websites!

I do think people need to work out the cost of feeding! It actually costs more to feed a Dog Iams ($23 avg for a 15lb bag) than Canidae ALS ($32 avg for a 15lb bag) and this advantage grows with bigger dogs. My dog would need 3 cups a day of Iams vs 2 cups of Canidae for the same calorie count, etc. Canidae works out slightly cheaper per feeding, but is miles better in Nutrition....even a fool like me can see that!

Myka, if you don't want the Tripett anymore I'd be happy to buy if from you!! I haven't found any stores in Medicine Hat that sell it and Bayley loves the stuff.

Ya, if you want it I think I have 4 cans left. I could bus you a case if you want...?

Cool, busing(bussing?) would be great. PM me how much and I'll send you the details and I can either send you a money order or just do a transfer or a cheque.

I wonder if there is a cheaper way...bus will probably be $20. It would likely only cost a little more to get two cases - probably make it more worthwhile. Which flavor(s) do you want? They usually have cases of the Venison and the Beef.

Beef I think is a bit cheaper if I remember right. I think bus is the best way. My sister sent us some stuff from Vancouver and we got it in 2 days on the bus. It's worth it for me, I'd spend more in gas driving to Lethbridge!!

Ok, you want one case or two? I'll go get it this week, and I will PM you when I have it.

Two would be awesome!!

Well, I after cutting out the Tripett, salmon oil, and yogurt for 2 weeks there is no change in the stinky breath. So I picked up a bag of Acana Adult (with grain). I will give it a go, and see what the difference may be. If this works I will try the Acana Grain-Free to see what difference that makes. If this doesn't make a difference I will switch to a different company since Acana and Orijen are both made by Champion.

As I am looking at the labels I notice Orijen lists "crude protein" rather than "protein", is there a difference?



Here is the Acana Adult:

Chicken meal, steamed oats, fresh free-run chicken, peas, brown rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary), fresh deboned salmon, chicken liver, fresh whole eggs, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, pumpkin, chicken cartilage (natural source of glucosamine), red delicious apples, carrots, turnip greens, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, organic sea vegetables (kelp, bladderwrack, dulse), burdock root, marshmallow root, juniper berries, fenugreek, sweet fennel, angelica root, sea buckthorn, chicory root, stinging nettle, red raspberry leaf, milk thistle, peppermint leaf, marigold flowers, chamomile flowers, lactobacillus acidophilus, enterococcus faecium + vitamins and minerals. Vitamins (vit. A, vit. D3, vit. E, niacin, riboflavin, lysine, thiamine mononitrate, vit. B12, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin). Minerals (iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate).

Protein .....................................29 %
Fat ..........................................16 %
Fiber .........................................3 %
Calcium .................................. 1.2 %
Phosphorus ............................. 1.0 %
Omega-6................................. 2.5 %
Omega-3 ................................ 0.3 %
Glucosamine ....................700 mg/kg
Chondroitin .......................500 mg/kg
Carbohydrate ...........................30 %


____________________________________________________________________

Here is the Orijen Adult:

Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

* DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen.

Crude protein (min.) 38.0 %
Crude fat (min.) 17.0 %
Crude fiber (max.) 3.0 %
Calcium (min./max.) 1.4 % / 1.6 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.2 % / 1.4 %
Omega-6 (min.) 3.0 %
Omega-3 (min.) 1.1 %
Glucosamine (min.) 1400 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.) 1000 mg/kg
Carbohydrate (max.) 25%

I would think "crude" protein would be pre-processing. But since Champion makes both, I suspect it is just marketing - helps make Origen sound more "raw" or wolf compatible.

Interesting.. my guy had horrible fish breath when he was on Orijen fish but we always figured it's because the kibble intself has really fishy smell to begin with. At one training session our trainer even asked did you just feed him fish before coming over here? When I switched him to Go, the fish smell as I would expect went away. Not sure if it's the fact Go has grains in it like some one suggested, I always figured it was because of how Orijen smelled.

We had stinky breath here too and switched from Orijen to Acana (with grains) and Oscar does much better on it - better breath, better poops, better energy levels, better at keeping some weight on, etc. I don't know if it was the lack of grains or the higher protein levels but something just didn't click right for us.