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MaxaLisa December 2nd, 2012 04:07 PM


I don't think she is getting any worse so haven't asked for more doxy but I read that it is helpful for cancer so wasn't sure if I should give it or not.

Right now I am giving the following:
IP6 500mg twice daily
Curcumin/bromelain 300mg/150mg twice daily
Lactoferrin 250mg daily
2 Tbsp flax oil mixed with cottage cheese (Budwig diet) daily
Purica Immune 7 (mushroom with reservatrol and green tea extract) 325mg/100mg twice daily
CoQ10 50mg daily
MSM/boswellian 500mg/150 daily

Because I am not sure about everything else I kind of alternate so depending on what foods I am giving (which are usually cooked meats, steamed veggies) if I feed a lot of fish or liver which may have more selenium for example than I don't give selenium but I do add the following maybe every other day:

Wild salmon oil 1000mg
Vit E succinate 400IU
Vit C 1000mg
Alpha lipoic acid 200mg
NAC 500mg
L-glutamine 500mg
L-Arginine 500mg

I also picked up some nutritional yeast, blackstrap molasses, wheat grass powder which I throw in from time to time.

I have echinaceae and astragalus as well but thought I would try that when I finished the mushroom complex.[/QUOTE]

I would watch carefully for signs that you need more doxy. I know that it was not long after I stopped the doxy that Max's hemangio spread just about everywhere. I can't say for sure that it was helping keep it in check to some degree, but that is my belief.

I really like all the things that you are giving right now, they are all known to be powerful cancer fighters.

Everything else on the list are noted as cancer fighters too, but I think you have already included some of the most powerful ones.

If you look at Ogilvie's (sp?) cancer research (vet who used to have a lot of info on the web), he was a big believer in the fish oil and also the arginine. In fact, I think that's the big thing with Hill's Science Diet cancer food, it has high amounts of both of those. If you add the fish oil, the vitamin E is necessary too. My dog's never did well on fish oil, so I couldn't use it when they got sick. You can also consider DHA (algae based) if fish is an issue.

The L-Arginine, I have often been confused about. Here is some info, though I know that you've read a ton already: [url][/url] It will dilate blood vessels, and if there is systemic infection, it may make it difficult to circulate blood throughout the system. (This is what happened with my GSD Max, so I had to take out all the vasodilators that increased nitric oxide.)

In general, for a non-cancer dog, I tend to have them on E, C, and often alpha lipoic acid and l-glutamine, so hard for me to say how strong of a cancer fighter they are. The ALA however is important in helping the side effects of cancer therapy (chemo and radiation),

I think the NAC made my heart race and made me feel like I was having really bad anxiety attacks, if I am remembering correctly.

Any forms of greens, as long as there is not an allergy, is good. Max loved the barley grass green drinks (I think they taste kinda icky myself!), but current dog is allergic to the barley grass that is in them. I have a little Ninja blender and each night I mince some greens (mostly spring mix, spinach, etc.).

I don't know much about the nutritional yeast and molasses. I know that my old girl did really well when she had things that had the nutritional yeast in it, max did not, so you may have to see how that goes. I don't know much about the molasses: [url][/url]

I do not think that echinacea is nearly as powerful as most mushroom complexes. I would be very hesitant to make that exchange. I do know that astragalus can be very powerful, but I don't know it's actions as compared to a mushroom product.

MaxaLisa December 2nd, 2012 04:28 PM

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned, is melatonin, taken before bedtime. I think it's a good adjunct therapy.

SuperWanda December 2nd, 2012 10:42 PM

Thanks so much for your input MaxaLisa,

I will check out those links. I actually just picked up some algal DHA. I read that DHA was more important than EFA. She doesn't seem to have any problem with fish oil but it seems that the DHA is low in the wild salmon oil I have.

I don't have Dressler's book but have seen some things on the web. I think I came across a Q&A blog of his. Also have seen some mention of Ogilvie. The book I have from our library is Dr. Shawn Messonier - preventing and treating cancer in dogs. I like it because it has a lot of dosage information which made me feel more comfortable trying to treat her myself.

I have heard of the melatonin as well but haven't tried that yet. Sometimes I feel like I'm giving too much and then other times I feel it's not enough but glad to have your input. Makes me feel like I'm at least on the right path.

Thanks again and hope your work situation settles down a bit.

MaxaLisa December 4th, 2012 04:32 PM

Thanks, there are just certain times of year where I am swamped, and this time it's a bit extra. In about a week and a half, life will be good again :)

Well, if beating cancer were a matter of just adding two or three supplements, then I think we would have already found a cure. So, without really knowing, the dogs that I've known that have done well, really were given quite a few things that some might have considered excessive. Of course, then we are afraid to take anything out once we find something that works! But I do understand the concern about so much "stuff"!

My girl Indy had brain lesions before she died. She did do better when I was giving her the algae DHA. I took her off because they were causing her lipomas to increase (fish oil did the same thing). I had no idea it was actually helping her, it was one of those hindsight things. I would have gladly taken the lipomas in exchange :(

I have that book by Messonier! I thought it was a very good book. I think he references a similar book by Blaylock, for humans, which I also made sure that I have in my library. I have something that I can send you if you want to pm me your email? it's a pdf book about cancer which you might be interested in.

SuperWanda December 6th, 2012 09:24 PM

Thanks MaxaLisa,

Good to know that about the lipomas. Timber has a especially large one on her rib and a few other smaller ones. At this point they don't seem to be changing.I think I remember something on Messonier's website about treating them with Thuja. Haven't tried that though since it's not a top priority but was thinking that better fats like omega 3's might help to shrink her lipomas. Not sure why I thought that though.

When you have the time, I'd like to read the info you have. I will pm you with my email.

SuperWanda December 6th, 2012 09:44 PM

Panting in the evening
The other thing I keep wanting to mention about Timber is her panting. This isn't really anything new but I now wonder if it has something to do with the nasal tumor. She pants a lot starting in the evening. I always thought she was just warm, being a husky because she doesn't seem to pant if she goes outside where it is cooler. She basically has bouts of panting throughout the evening and into the night sometimes. I wonder if her tumor prevents her from breathing properly through her nose and so when she is trying to rest she suddenly sits up and pants for awhile to get extra air through her mouth :shrug:

I don't know, but it worries me. I don't want her to be in pain and not recognize that happening. It seems to help if I make it cooler in the house in the evening and the rest of us just bundle up in extra clothes and blankets. But some nights it can be worse than others so wonder if it really has anything to do with temperature.

hazelrunpack December 7th, 2012 12:16 PM

Would your vet be willing to prescribe you a small amount of tramadol? It's non-NSAID so doesn't promote bleeding. See if the tramadol stops the panting. If it does, it may be that she is panting due to discomfort (in which case, see if your vet will keep her on the tramadol). If it doesn't stop the panting, then either she's just getting hot or the tumor is interfering with the air flow. Our Priscilla panted more at the end, more from an air flow problem than from pain.

MaxaLisa December 14th, 2012 01:38 AM

I was never successful at dealing with my girl's lipomas. I now think that they have something to do with stagnation, and curcumin comes to mind, but I don't know.....

The panting, that's so hard, there can be so many different reasons. In most dogs, it's probably nothing incredibly serious, though with a nasal tumor, that might be a very likely reason?

My GSD Max had a lot of panting problems. Some I think were from a hormonal reason (when he was really sick, all his values were out of wack, thyroid, cortisone, parathyroid probably too since calcium was off). Another reason can be if it the blood vessels are dilated from systemic infection, say tick disease, pathogenic e.coli, etc. It's a bit like sepsis, and they can't pump blood to where they need it, according to the internal med vet.

I wonder, when she is panting, can you hear something that sounds like a stuffy nose, which would point to the nasal issue?

MaxaLisa December 14th, 2012 05:56 AM

Afterthought, if she is in a very acidic state, it can cause an increase in panting. Doxycycline will cause this, but I think other things can too. I had great results with baking soda therapy in this instance, it was dramatic.

SuperWanda December 15th, 2012 07:51 PM

Thanks again hazelrunpack and MaxaLIsa,

I will look into your suggestions. I just picked up some doxy again because she sounded more stuffy and was having trouble sleeping the last two nights. She was waking up panting but again, if she sits outside the panting subsides so I wonder if it is the tumor, pain, temp, food or supplements I am giving. I am going to keep a diary to see if I can pinpoint anything that might be causing it.

I read something about baking soda and wondered about it. I always want to give my dogs a good portion of meat but I know that it is acidic. I am adding more green veggies like broccoli, brussell sprouts etc. But maybe a little baking soda would help. I have been giving vit C (ascorbic acid) but maybe ester C or sodium ascorbate might be better. I decided against ester C because I read something that said to stay away from the calcium based C for nasal cancer but for the life of me, I can't remember where I saw that now or the reason for it. Too much information in my head!

Thanks again for your help and recommendations. :highfive:

MaxaLisa December 19th, 2012 08:55 PM

Heh, heh, I reset my cookies and couldn't find my pasword for awhile!

I hope she I doing well on the doxy again. It was always a life saver for Max. It's anti-inflammatory action might be just a important as the abx action.

It can create an acidic environment, some folks always give pepcid with it. I found that giving some baking soda, mixed with water via a big syringe (orally) anbout 30 minute after eating basically stopped his panting cold, it was huge for him. I gues it depends on why the panting is there.

I sure hope she is doing okay, I know how hard this is!

SuperWanda December 25th, 2012 11:34 PM

Thanks for checking up on us Maxalisa,

She is doing very well I think. Her breathing improved again after being on the doxy. I think we have 4 or 5 days left- trying 14 days on then a break again. I still need to read the information you gave me and now that the holiday crazies are over, will sit down and figure out if there is anything else I can add to help her.

Panting hasn't been too bad lately and haven't tried the baking soda but will keep that in mind. Do you give a certain amount based on weight. I can also look that up but read something about it being toxic - maybe that is in excessive amounts.

I just hope that something I'm doing will help or I'll see some kind of improvement. Considering our vet said she had as little as 5 months, I am not seeing any indication that she is getting worse so that is good but I still worry a lot about it since I can't actually see what is going on and I know how quickly things can change but trying to be positive despite the prognosis.

MaxaLisa December 29th, 2012 02:01 PM

Glad to hear the positive report!

I think it's really tough, since you can't really see what's going on in the inside, and that will drive you a little crazy. Nasal stuff is scary and often quick, so just slowing it down will be a win. Sounds like even just the doxy is doing that.

Are you giving anything that has anti-fungal properties, or contains something like Pau D'Arco? Just a thought that with the antibiotics, something to consider. But if you're giving probiotics, that should help. You can keep an eye on the color of the skin of the tummy and watch for dark spots. Hopefully in a husky they aren't as prone to it as Max (GSD) was.

I just made up the baking soda stuff on my own. I gave it twice a day, about 30 minutes after meals, mixed with water in a small feeding syringe. I'm not sure it really goes by weight. Max averaged abot 84 pounds. I started using about 1/8 of a teaspoon of the baking soda twice a day, and I think in the end, was using a slightly overful 1/4 teaspoon. It was very dramatic for him. Someone else used it with success on the tick list too. The doxy does create an acidic state in the body, and on a high protein diet, they are already tending toward the acidic side.

SuperWanda January 3rd, 2013 09:54 PM

Hi lisa,

I don't know what Pau D'Arco is. I'll have to look that up. For antifungal I use probiotics and I think lactoferrin has anti-fungal properties and I'm not sure but maybe the mushroom extract? What are the dark spots on the tummy to watch for - would that be signs of a yeast infection?

Thanks for the baking soda advice.

have you ever used artemisinin? This is something that doesn't seem to be common in Canada. I can find wormwood but artemisinin is sweet wormwood which is apparently a different species. Also wonder about Essiac tea but have heard negative as well as positive things.

MaxaLisa January 8th, 2013 05:41 AM

Yes, the dark spots on the skin are typically fungal, if they've been on antibiotics for a long time. I recently found out here that Oil of Oregano seemed to work for my girl here. I used Pau D'Arco for Max, which is a strong anti-fungal, but there are other products out there, so if you start seeing that, we can brainstorm then.

have you ever used artemisinin? This is something that doesn't seem to be common in Canada. I can find wormwood but artemisinin is sweet wormwood which is apparently a different species. Also wonder about Essiac tea but have heard negative as well as positive things.[/QUOTE]
I used Arteminsinin for Max, it is also an herb used for Babesia. This is the one that I used: [url][/url] I just gave him one per day, I don't know if it helped or not.

MaxaLisa January 13th, 2013 05:54 PM

I hope that things are going well there, thinking of you guys!

SuperWanda January 23rd, 2013 04:41 PM

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, we are doing well. No worse at least. It is cold here but that is what Timber likes (although nobody likes the -40 wind chill). When the wind dies down I can't get her inside. She finds a sunny spot and lies down with eyes closed in a snow pile. So glad one of us enjoys the weather. I feel bad for her in the summer and think that it will be harder on her breathing once it gets hot and humid.

I haven't changed much in my regime. I still don't feel comfortable giving everything at once so try different supplements on and off. Finish a bottle of this, start something else. I don't know if that is the way to do it but I'm not sure if I feel right giving all the immune boosters all at once (mushroom complex, astragalus, echinacea, etc). The things I do give every day are curcumin, IP6 and flax/cottage cheese mixture. I kinda make the rest up as each day comes :shrug:

Rgeurts January 23rd, 2013 07:04 PM

I'm glad to see she's still hanging in there :lovestruck:
I didn't read through each post, so I don't know if this was mentioned, but Thorin had a lot of night pain. Starting later in the evening, and then throughout the night, he would really pant, and often pace (and several times, towards the end, he would lick the carpet obsessively). Our cancer vet explained that it was most likely due to "cancer pain". She said it typically flares up at night and bothers them the worst. She put Thorin on Tramadol, as Hazel mentioned, and also a drug that isn't a new drug, but new in terms of treating cancer pain. It's called Gabapentin. It's an antiseizure drug, but research over the last few yrs have shown it's very effective for treating nerve pain due to certain types of cancer. It really helped Thorin. He stopped panting/pacing and was able to sleep through the night. Might be worth talking to your vet about. :grouphug:

SuperWanda January 25th, 2013 11:21 PM

Thanks Rgeurts,

Timber does pant in the evening. It seems like she has been doing it ever since she was sick with the tick disease. Is she hot, in pain, just having trouble breathing? I am not sure. It has actually subsided a little but still seems to come and go. I am also keeping a food diary to see if that could be the trigger. It seems to me she pants more after eating chicken but not absolutely sure if this is the only reason :shrug:

But yes, I hope it is not pain. I will certainly look into the two drugs you mentioned and ask our vet about them if the panting gets worse. She doesn't pace at all. Overall she sleeps very well and is waking up less than she did when first diagnosed :thumbs up

I hope your Nanook is doing well :lovestruck:

MaxaLisa January 26th, 2013 09:46 PM

I'm glad that things are going well - and not getting worse is well in my book! I understand about rotating through things, and I'm big on being true to "instinct" and that inner voice.

Max panted a lot. The internist thought that it was the infection that had dilated his blood vessels, making it harder to pump his blood. Many months after he told me that, I read something about some breeds that heat up, pant because the blood vessels get dilated from the heat. With Timber, hard to say maybe, with a nasal tumor, history of tick disease, and a dog that loves the cool, could be a number of reasons!

Max was very intolerant to the heat. He died last Februrary, which maybe was the kindest for him, because I did not think that he could make it through the summer, when we get very very hot temperatures. I so understand your worries about that!

But I am very happy to hear that Timber is maintaining :)

MaxaLisa January 26th, 2013 11:20 PM

Just thought of something when I was reading your post in another thread.

Don't know if quercetin has been mentioned yet? It is as effective as an anti-histamine for allergies, and has some very good anti-cancer activities. Just something to keep in mind, particularly if the clear fluid discharge needs to be addressed.

MaxaLisa July 6th, 2013 09:35 PM

SW, how are things going?

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