The Use Of Punishment For Behavior Modification In Animals - AVSAB Position Statement
 

An informative article published by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior.

[url]http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf[/url]

LP - I knew you were going to come up with something in regards to this subject matter at some point.:) - Boy do I know you.:laughing:

Ok - I will absolutely take the time to read the article. Thanks.:thumbs up

Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on the article :shrug:? Does it make sense to those of you who've read it? Did you find it easy to understand or do you think more examples should have been cited?

I think it's a great article, especially for beginner dog owners, or someone bringing a new puppy into the fold. It's good to hear the different terminology explained, ie. positive punishment, negative reinforcement, etc. I think a lot of the time people make their own assumptions about what each of them means. It shocked me a little to hear that some methods of teaching fetch are to pinch a dog's ear like that till they open their mouth. Some things I agree with, some I don't. For example, I don't agree with kneeing a dog for jumping up, as I believe it can cause damage to a dog's chest, and that wasn't really addressed. At the end when it states their position, along with not using adversives initially, I wish it would have said more about what TO do at the beginning, as it's definitely challenging when you have a very rambunctious energetic puppy. All in all though, very good!

I thought this point was really great! [QUOTE]Punishment also fails to tell the animal what it should be performing instead. Without an alternative appropriate behavior the animal may have no option but to perform the undesired behavior.[/QUOTE]

It's so important, regardless of someones trianing method, to show the dog the desired behavior, which is easy to forget to do. Often once the negative behavior has been innterupted, people move on, not showing the dog what they actually want from them or waiting long enough to give the dog a chance to achieve it in that moment.

[QUOTE=Lynne_B;801752] For example, I don't agree with kneeing a dog for jumping up, as I believe it can cause damage to a dog's chest, and that wasn't really addressed. At the end when it states their position, along with not using adversives initially, I wish it would have said more about what TO do at the beginning, as it's definitely challenging when you have a very rambunctious energetic puppy. [/QUOTE]

Yes, the kneeing of a dog jumping up was used as an example of positive punishment. Alternatives are mentioned however, towards the end of page 2 and in the last paragraph of page 3.

To address jumping up, we always ask for a competing behavior...assuming the dog has been taught one eg, sit, go get your ball, outside, etc. If our dogs are busy doing an opposite behavior, then they can't be jumping up [SIZE="1"]although with our Penny, we have to tell her to go outside to get her ball [I]and then [/I]sit or she'll do the first two and still try to jump up on us :rolleyes: :D.[/SIZE]

Yup, I saw the other examples as well, it's good that alternatives were stated. For us we have been pretty lucky, as our dog was taught at a young age by an older dog not to jump up. He jumped up on that owner, and basically "got told" by that dog that he was being rude. Since then we've had very little issues with jumping up. However that being said, there are still certain people that he gets VERY excited around, and basically vibrates and yips and half jumps (then checks himself and sits). It's pretty hilarious to watch. But as soon as he's sitting, he gets attention, otherwise he gets ignored. It happens more with people he knows that he doesn't always get to see, and also when they tend to stand with a bit of a slouch, instead of standing tall. When he was younger we would also step on his leash (ignoring wasn't working at that point) so that he would essentially self correct when he jumped up. But again because of the other dog correcting him, we didn't really have to deal with it long enough to really know what methods worked the best.

I thought it was a pretty well rounded article and good to introduce the concepts of negative and positive punishment. Personally, I think many dog owners don't realize how much they use negative punishment and that a temporary time out or even not praising verbally constitutes such. I liked that the article did not condemn either negative or positive punishment but expressed the idea that other options should be explored first. I think to fully appreciate this article one must research the references given and investigate more fully some of the reinforcements and punishments discussed. Especially since the use of either was said to often be wrongly timed by many pet owners.

[QUOTE]The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not to be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Consequently, the AVSAB urges that veterinarians in general practice follow suit.[/QUOTE]This statement rather set me aback. To say veterinarians specializing in behaviour should not use punishment as their first line of treatment seems reasonable but I find it a bit frightening that the AVSAB feels it must remind them. The second part of the quote I find truly worrisome. Veterinarians who do NOT specialize in behaviour are using punishment? The statement seems to me to say they shouldn't but that means the AVSAB believes some are. My Vet is punishing my pet when I'm not around? I hope it is not positive punishment. On the other hand, I know my Vet has a really hard time controlling my neighbour's 115 lb Lab who is a nice dog but completely untrained. What's a Vet to do?

[QUOTE=Longblades;801976] Personally, I think many dog owners don't realize how much they use negative punishment and that a temporary time out or even not praising verbally constitutes such. [/QUOTE]

I'm interested as to why you say that not praising verbally constitutes as negative punishment? ...could you elaborate?

[QUOTE]not praising verbally constitutes as negative punishment?[/QUOTE]Sure, I'll try. It's something I got from readings on operant versus classical conditioning and of course I cannot now pinpoint exactly which reading it was. This website is quite good: [url]http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/index.htm[/url]

I'll make up an example. Say you are training your puppy to sit. Every time she does it right you say "good girl". Every time she does it wrong, she lies down instead say, you don't say anything. You have then withheld her reward, which in this case is verbal praise but it could have been a treat, and that is a negative punishment. That's why I believe many folks don't realize how often they do it. It is a quite mild punishment.

The reward could have been a treat or play with a favourite toy, whatever works for you and pup. Giving the reward is positive reinforcement, not giving it is negative punishment.

To modify my first paragraph, actually I think that website is very, very good.

WOW Longblades!!! I'm so glad you brought up this point because through my own personal training & experience, no one has every brought this up to me before. That is such a great way to look at it, so true. Thanks for explaining and the article! :thumbs up

Although I didn't have time to read the article thoroughly, I just want to share my thoughts on the matter. I think a lot of times people blidly follow other people's instructions. Like take my neighbour for instance...He has a 1 yr old femal boxer, she is adorable and I like her alot. the problem is that he ABUSES the pinch collar system, due to what his trainer showed and taught him. He YANKS on that collar so hard that this 60-70 lbs dog flies through the air to land on her stomach. That is just sick and I told him that many times and all he said in return is that "the trainer told him he has no choice, because she is not obedient". Umm...I may be way off here, but something tells me that this dog only stays down because it is in pain or in fear.

On the other hand, I do not have any trouble making Sparky sit, stay, jump, lay down, crawl or any other functions that he knows WITHOUT having a leash o him. Now, how did I do it? definitely not by yelling at him, punching him or putting a pinch collar and yanking on it. And when I say STAY he stays. That poor boxer is just looking for a chance to run. I used lotsa patience, treats, positive reinforcement and understanding.
:shrug:
IMO, you dont need all that much to deal with a dog...of course, it depends on a particular situation, but alot of the mis-use of the techniques comes from MASSIVE mis-information and mis-representation.
And that is sad, I always say, how would you like me to do that to YOU? and usually people are left speechless, because nobody ever challenged them that way. :shrug:

I quite enjoyed the article. Thank you for posting it LP.