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-   -   Looking for a Reputable breeder. (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18613)

mona_b August 19th, 2005 10:41 AM

Looking for a Reputable breeder.
 
Many of us on here know what to look for in a Reputable Breeder.But I just wanted to try and educate those who don't.

Reputable Breeders Show/Title their dogs.When I say Title,this could be in SchH,Herding,Agility,Flyball,Pointing,Retrieving.This all depends on the breed.Showing their dogs to Champion means that they are of breed standard.

They also have thier dogs health and genetic tested/certified.This means OFA,OVC(Hips,Elbows)CERF'D(eyes,done by an Optomoligist)Heart(done by a Cardiologist)Thyroid.If their Dam does not pass any of the tests,they will not breed them.

They can tell you everything about the Dam and Sires Pedigree,and will supply you with Pedigree Papers.

They are registered Kennel.And registered with the Kennel Club.This could be the CKC(Canadian Kennel Club)or AKC.And are with good standing.

They belong to number of clubs for their breed.Be it National or Regional.

They will put you on a waiting list.This is done before the breeding takes place.They screen you and ask you a TON of questions.They will not give up their pups to any Joe Blow.They care where their pups are going.

They have written contracts.This is either a Non Breeding contract or a S/N contract.They will take back a pup they sold.

They will be there for you to answer any questions you have.Be it training,grooming,showing(if that's what you want to do)and also with any of the sporting trials you want to put your dog in.

They will gladly allow you to come check out their home.And once the pups are born,they encourage you to come and visit them.

They want to keep in contact with the new owner.And know how the pup/dog is doing.This even means 5,10 even 15 years down the road.

They breed to better the breed.They are not in it for the money.

They do not breed more than twice a year.And they do not breed their Dams under the age of 2.

They show passion and love for their dogs.And tremendous knowledge of their breed.And are very experienced.


They do NOT place ads in the newspaper or even under classified ads on the net.No reputable breeder does this.

I'm sure I have forgotten something.But this,in a nutshell is what a Reputable Breeder is.And this is know.I have dealt with an amazing breeder,whom I got my first GSD from at the age of 17.And when I lost him at 13,I got 2 more from her.Even though she is not showing/breeding(due to Cancer)I still keep in contact with her,and have that special bond with her.And I do visit her when I can.Her dogs were Champions and Titled in SCH III.And my current GSD made it as a K9 Police Dog.

So if anyone is wanting to seek out a Reputable breeder,PLEASE do your research.And keep what I have posted about them in mind.This is what you should be looking for. :)

Beaglemom August 19th, 2005 10:54 AM

Mona, that is great, you covered most of it. They also offer a written guarantee for a year or two guaranteeing that their pups are free from genetic disorders and will take the pup back should any develop within the time guaranteed. They also write into their contracts that should the new owner ever have to give up their pup, the breeder is the first to know and is the first to have the option to take the dog back, even 10 years down the road.

The puppies are always vet checked, dewormed, microchipped and/or tattoed and already have had a series of shots. They are never released to a home prior to 8 weeks, some will only release them when they are 12 weeks old.

mona_b August 19th, 2005 11:08 AM

Thank you Beaglemom,I knew I was forgetting a few things... :)

Lack of sleep is taking a toll on my brain.....LOL

Beaglemom August 19th, 2005 11:24 AM

Your welcome. You did get all the main things. :thumbs up

mona_b August 19th, 2005 11:31 AM

So then that means half my brain is still working..... :D

BMDLuver August 19th, 2005 11:39 AM

Looks like a pretty darn good Sticky to me! :D

White Wolf August 19th, 2005 01:28 PM

Done. It's a sticky. :)

shannon1233A August 19th, 2005 03:51 PM

mona_b
 
Absolutely WONDERFUL JOB!!!! Thank you for taking the time to make such a comprehensive, educational post! :thumbs up :thumbs up :thumbs up

db7 August 19th, 2005 06:26 PM

You will meet meet not just the dam and litter mates but perhaps the Sire and/or other closely related dogs - bros/sis from previous breeding, aunts,uncles, and they are also disease free.

AND they all have even temperaments.

BTW, for those that are interested, the OFA database is online and you can research the test results of Hips, heart, eyes.... for free.

mastifflover August 19th, 2005 06:42 PM

That was a great post MonaB. As we all know it is way easier to find bad breeders and byb and mills but you have to really do your research to find a good breeder. A reputable breeder will be happy to let you speak to people who have purchased dogs from them. As soon as they say no run far and fast

mona_b August 20th, 2005 03:26 PM

Thank you. :)

And thank you White Wolf. ;)

mastifflover,you are so right.It is way to easy to find bad breeders and BYB's.

This is why I needed to have this info posted on here. :)

lperms October 2nd, 2005 01:25 PM

Reputable Breeders
 
That's Great! :) I agree with everything that you have said with the exception of advertising in newspapers and online. . . I know that one of the number one German Shepherd breeders in Canada often advertises online or in her local newspaper when she has a litter available. How else are you supposed to find homes for puppies, especially if you would like to keep them local? Not everyone has access to the internet. . . So I think that Reputable breeders do advertise sometimes! But other than that everything that you have said I think is great and should help puppy buyers choose the right breeder.

Martine

Prin October 2nd, 2005 01:27 PM

You're supposed to sell ALL the puppies BEFORE the litter is born. Most good breeders have waiting lists and have no need to advertise at all.

lperms October 2nd, 2005 01:32 PM

Reputable Breeders
 
I agree, most of the time breeders do have lists of people waiting for puppies, however in some cases and quite often lists can fall through and it is often tiring trying to figure out and investigate potential puppy owners via the web. I personally have not advertised puppies in a local newspaper in quite sometime, but in the same sence I can see myself doing it in the future if I have a dog/puppy that I would like to place. I like the idea of having my puppies local, where I can keep an eye on things, check out the potential buyers home, visit with the puppy as she/he matures, talk to the owner in person, see how the dog is with his owner and make sure that the owner has fufilled the contract that I give, etc, and there is NOTHING unreputable about that! :)

Prin October 2nd, 2005 01:37 PM

The lists are not limited to one litter. Waiting lists can be very long, thus never fall through. If you have good puppies, you will not have to advertise.

And I know one breeder who sends representatives of her breed's club to your home to do checks if they can't go themselves.

As for advertising in the paper- a lot of the dogs in the paper end up in labs. The target audience is so broad for a newspaper. It's just a bad idea. People are very equipped to get by regular folks' screening processes. Be careful.

lperms October 2nd, 2005 01:46 PM

Reputable Breeders
 
I definately agree with most of your points! :) I only breed about one litter every one to two years with my puppies and I have had very long waiting lists, but often when I finally have a litter on the ground, I find that people got too anxious from waiting, circumstances changed,finaces,etc,etc, furthermore I like to meet my owners in person, not have someone else do the meeting for me. I like to trust my natural instincts when I meet someone and you just can't do that via the web. . . But I do agree that newspapers are often not the best way to sell your puppies, most of my puppy owners have found me on breeder lists on the web, pet sites, etc, but I guess that is probably wrong too?
I definately consider myself a reputable breeder since I promote spay & neuter, have all Champion/Schutzhund/Obediance titled dogs with hip,elbow,spinal X-rays and very strict contracts, attend shows, title my own dogs, and I have found wonderful owners for my puppies via the web or locally through a newspaper. I don't like to keep lists any longer unless I know I am expecting a litter, because frankly I just don't breed that much to have a long ongoing list.
I just don't know how you expect people to get a running list in the first place. . . Please explain how you can do this. . . I would love the info. :)

Martine :)

Prin October 2nd, 2005 01:50 PM

I don't understand how so many back out. Are they just not serious then? What happens when they learn that a dog is expensive? What happens if their financial situation changes after getting the dog?

I think that advertising in dog-friendly or dog specific places will attract a more specific market.

CyberKitten October 2nd, 2005 01:53 PM

We should have a sticky for cat breeders as well.

lperms October 2nd, 2005 01:55 PM

Reputable Breeders
 
It happens. . . people have babies and are unable to take a dog at the time, therefore stay on the list or drop off, families run into health problems, divorces, people walk into a shelter and fall in love there, etc, etc. I just know so many reputable breeders who have lists but sometime, SOMETIMES, they DO and CAN fall through! It's really never happened to me where I was left to have to advertise my whole litter but the odd time I have had to place an ad for maybe one or two puppies of a large litter. It's never been a negative experiance for me so I guess I don't understand but I do hear what your saying. You can NEVER be too careful!

Martine :)

lperms October 2nd, 2005 01:56 PM

Reputable Cat Breeders
 
I agree Sticky!

StaceyB October 2nd, 2005 02:03 PM

I can understand why someone wouldn't wait 1 or two years to get a pup and still not know if I would be getting a pup. I would find several breeders that cover the criteria that I am looking for. I wouldn't be setting everything on one opportunity. Many people that were on her lists may have chosen a different breeder.

ZonkaDaisy June 25th, 2006 06:06 PM

In regards to the dogs being "Titled and shown", I think exceptions should be made to breeders whos dogs are not necessarily titled but are actually working dogs. How do others view dogs that are working rather than titled??

Prin June 25th, 2006 10:38 PM

There are working titles too, aren't there?

mafiaprincess June 25th, 2006 11:01 PM

Yes there are. I would want both parents field titled if they aren't being shown.
Depending upon breed..
Schutzhund
Herding titles
Field trials - AKC, CKC
Go To Ground/Terrier Trials/Tests
Coursing titles
Hunt Test Titles

There is no excuse to be breeding working dogs that aren't excelling at one of the above, lot of times it's more than one, including agility, flyball etc, but even mixed breeds dogs excel at other things. Only a well bred dog will bring home field titles. Weeds out the mediocre ones like the show ring does..

ZonkaDaisy June 25th, 2006 11:57 PM

They are working as FBI bomb detection and drug detection dogs... So I am sure they are titled in some way, But I think that is different from what you mean.. not sure

kaytris June 26th, 2006 07:59 AM

The only thing I slightly disagree with is this: [QUOTE]that their pups are free from genetic disorders and will take the pup back should any develop within the time guaranteed[/QUOTE]

This can be slightly misleading, and provides breeders with a way to sound responsible without having to fulfill their duty. Many buyers will not return a puppy that they have bonded with, when puppy is diagnosed with a problem at 9 months or 2 years. Also, some breeders will take back a puppy and then euthanize it - and then claim "my lines have no genetic issues" - dead puppies tell no tales.

I would rather see a clause like this:
"If the puppy should ever develop a genetic defect that makes it unsuitable as a pet, a refund up to but not over the original purchase price will be provided. To receive refund the puppy MUST be spayed or neutered. Return of the puppy will not be required."

or this:
"Should this dog during the first 30 months of it's life, be diagnosed with a genetic related disease rendering the dog unfit for hunting, breeder agrees to FULLY refund OR replace the dog with another of equal purchase value. The dog does NOT have to be returned but breeder must be notified in writing within 30 days of DVM Diagnosis and proof of spay/neuter for this guarantee to be valid"

Writing4Fun June 26th, 2006 09:21 AM

Kaytris, a reputable breeder would be making sure that the puppies are spayed/neutered regardless. They can be the picture of health. If the breeder isn't keeping them him/herself for breeding purposes, they must be speutered. No compromise on that one.

technodoll June 26th, 2006 09:43 AM

[QUOTE]a reputable breeder would be making sure that the puppies are spayed/neutered regardless. They can be the picture of health. If the breeder isn't keeping them him/herself for breeding purposes, they must be speutered. No compromise on that one.[/QUOTE]

or a non-breeding contract is also acceptable... most reputable breeders will only sell to people they trust and contracts are not written up for nothing. granted, it's a trust issue, but nonetheless you cannot "force" a buyer to sterilize their pet, i mean who has time for policing? and withholding papers until proof of spay/neuter only works for some buyers, some don't care one way or the other... it's a sticky situation, all right. We own a papered, purebred dog under a non-breeding contract and he's not neutered, we might get it done down the road but for now, we like him this way and the breeder is fine with it. our female is spayed so the household remains quiet. so... every situation is different, IMO. :pawprint:

Beaglemom June 26th, 2006 10:16 AM

Reputable breeders sell their puppies on nonbreeding contracts with a clause that states that the only way that can be lifted is when the dog attains his/her championship title and then only with the breeders' permission is the dog allowed for breeding. Many times, even if you intend on showing your dog, the breeder puts the nonbreeding clause in, not always does it mean that you must spay/neuter. There are breeders who do demand spay/neuter proof on all dogs sold as pets only and/or that are not intended to be shown. I know of someone that had to provide proof, according to her contract, that her puppy has been spayed prior to her 6th month. The puppy has already been spayed and the breeder has a copy of the certificate from the veterinarian. This breeder has checked up on her puppy to make sure all is well.

kaytris June 26th, 2006 10:19 AM

what I wanted to emphasize was that a good breeder doesn't require the return of the puppy.

Beaglemom June 26th, 2006 10:48 AM

Kaytris, you are right. There are many reputable breeders who will refund the purchase price of your puppy and/or will pay for the treatments that are required and you are not expected to return your puppy. I would hope that most people would not want to return their dog, but from what I've seen, many puppy are willing to give up their dog/puppy for a lot less. Unfortunately, there are people out there who would return the puppy for another one.

LM1313 June 26th, 2006 12:40 PM

[quote] granted, it's a trust issue, but nonetheless you cannot "force" a buyer to sterilize their pet, i mean who has time for policing?
[/quote]

Something I've always wondered . . . why don't the breeders just have the puppies spayed/neutered themselves and add the additional cost into the price of the puppy? Puppies can be neutered or spayed quite early and recover easily from surgery. I've heard rumors that this will sometimes make a dog more "leggy" and tall than it would otherwise be, but why would the new owner mind since they aren't going to be showing the puppy anyway?

Prin June 26th, 2006 11:29 PM

The people I know who bought "new" dogs did have a follow up. It's in the breeder's best interest after making new owners sign a contract saying they'll pay some enormous sum of money if they don't get the dog neutered by a certain date. Even breeders in it just for the money will make sure if it means an extra grand or two in their pockets.;)

mona_b June 27th, 2006 11:43 AM

When I got my dogs from my breeder,my contract was a Neuter contract.If I didn't,then I would have been taken to court and sued for $5000.This was stated in the contract.Do I think it was a cash grab for her?No,I think it was her being the reputable breeder that she was and didn't want to see me being a BYB and making money.Which I think is a great idea.I know quite a few breeders who do this.My vet sent her the papers proving that they were done.....:)


[QUOTE]Reputable breeders sell their puppies on nonbreeding contracts with a clause that states that the only way that can be lifted is when the dog attains his/her championship title and then only with the breeders' permission is the dog allowed for breeding. Many times, even if you intend on showing your dog, the breeder puts the nonbreeding clause in, not always does it mean that you must spay/neuter.[/QUOTE]

You are soooo right Beaglemom.And I know quite a few people who's dogs do reach CH and they won't breed.They actually get them fixed.Only reason being is that they don't want to be breeders.They know that it takes alot of time and money to become one.

[QUOTE]what I wanted to emphasize was that a good breeder doesn't require the return of the puppy.[/QUOTE]

A reputable breeder would not hesitate to take back a pup.They actually will specify that for any reason you can't keep the pup,return it.

LM1313 June 27th, 2006 03:40 PM

I think what she meant wasn't that the breeder will [i]refuse[/i] to take back the puppy, but that the breeder won't REQUIRE the owner to give up the puppy, if the owner doesn't want to, in order for the owner to get a refund for a genetic defect that was guaranteed against, for example. A reputable breeder doesn't treat a dog like a purse. "Oh, that one's defective, let me give you another . . . *tosses the original purse into the trash*"

Angies Man August 31st, 2006 12:03 PM

[QUOTE=LM1313]Something I've always wondered . . . why don't the breeders just have the puppies spayed/neutered themselves and add the additional cost into the price of the puppy? Puppies can be neutered or spayed quite early and recover easily from surgery. I've heard rumors that this will sometimes make a dog more "leggy" and tall than it would otherwise be, but why would the new owner mind since they aren't going to be showing the puppy anyway?[/QUOTE]

I can answer this (having recently gotten a new puppy.) I wouldn't buy an altered 4 month old puppy is the answer. The puppy's (and kitten's, too) sexual organs are important for providing the hormones to help the animal mature, fill out, and become an adult dog. Dogs that are spayed or neutered too young are more rounded and more puppy-like.

Prin August 31st, 2006 02:28 PM

It's actually the other way around. The growth plates stay open longer when a dog is neutered before puberty, so the dog can get slightly taller and lankier than when they're done at 6 months or more. But the differences are so slight, I doubt anybody would be able to tell.

Some people say that Boo has the typical body of a dog neutered earlier and would have been stalkier had I done him later, but he [I]was[/I] done later. I only got him at around 6 months old and we had to wait until his kennel cough was gone and the dispute with the SPCA over the neutering was over too. :shrug:

Cygnet September 4th, 2006 10:36 AM

I agree with most of what has been posted. I quibble with a few things.

The thing about requiring titles on all breeding stock isn't so much what it says about the dog, it is what it says about the owner. Breeders who title their breeding stock (in something, whether it is obedience, field, conformation, agility or tracking or whatever) have demonstrated a willingness to subject their dogs and their breeding program and the results to outside scrutiny. They aren't just telling puppy buyers "I know what is best," they are proving that their dogs can do something other than produce puppies and, more than that, they are demonstrating their willingness to do stuff with their dogs.

I disagree that responsible breeders don't (ever) advertise in the newspaper or on the internet. As long as responsible breeders screen prospective puppy buyers adequately, it doesn't matter where the buyers come from. I also disagree with the implication that the ONLY responsible puppy buyers are people who want to wait a year or more (responsible breeders don't breed very often, after all) on a waiting list. It can happen that way, but a responsible breeder and a responsible puppy buyer can come together at any time during the process, and there is nothing wrong with that. While good breeders typically have people interested in the litter before it is whelped, many of these highly selective puppy buyers are also highly selective about what they get--they likely want a particular gender, maybe show quality, very likely particular temperament, and sometimes even a particular color or markings. If a breeder has a bunch of puppy buyers lined up for pushy, bold male show quality puppies, and she has a litter of quiet, easygoing, female, pet quality puppies, that doesn't necessarily mean she did anything wrong.

Health screens, of course, are non-negotiable. Check that OFA website for the names of the sire and dam and relatives before you ever even go look at a litter!

i_have_too_many February 13th, 2007 12:03 PM

As a breeder, I have a 2 page contract for buyers to sign when they buy a puppy from me. The litter I have now, I had a waiting list of 12 people before it was born. Once the litter was born, most on my list had either changed their minds, were now unable to get one (moving, baby, etc) or had found a puppy elsewhere since many have their names on several lists. I think only 1 of the original people will be taking a puppy home, several of the potential buyers never even got back to me after telling them the puppies were born. Of the 7 we have, we are keeping 1 and have sold 5, they are 4 weeks old. I reluctantly had to advertise my first litter in the paper only because I had not been breeding long enough to establish a reputation and get returning buyers, which is where many of the people on the list come from. They were a different breed than the puppies we have now. A list really depends on how long the breeder has been breeding, the longer they have been in the "business" the more people know them. And remember, all breeders, even the best, started with a first litter. The length of time that someone has been breeding does not make them a not-worthwhile breeder. Some who have been breeding for only a few years could be producing better dogs than those who have been doing it for a long time.

My contract states that if a dog developes a genetic problem within 3 years we give money back, no dog return, I could not ask people to give up a dog that they have become attached to. They are sold on non-breeding contracts that state the dog must attain a CKC or AKC title and have all health checks done. I do not "demand" the dog be fixed, I can not police that, but I do encourage, at 6 months for a female, 1 year for a male. I had never heard of saying you will sue someone for not getting the dog fixed, I dont think too many breeders have that in their contracts, but it may not be a bad idea. However, when we got our girl we did not intend to breed her, but by the time she was 1 she had turned out to be such a great dog we waited, and now she is titled, has health checks and has a litter of wonderful puppies.

I agree with Cygnet about the title saying more about the breeder than the dog, it means they are willing to put the time and money into competing, and want to make sure that the dogs they own stand up to the standard (showing or working). Competing is not cheap, to get my one girl titled for tracking I first took her to class (10 sessions at $150) Then a test at $75. She did not pass so I forked out another $150 for a second set of classes and another test at $75. She passed. Health checks are not cheap either, and to get a show title it takes at least 3 shows at $25 each, plus the cost of travel and a handler (starting at $100 a show) if you do not want to do it yourself. Most dogs require attending several shows to get their Championship, depending on how common the breed is, sometimes over the course of a year or two. The breeds that I have rarely have more than 3 or 4 dogs at a show, and the one breed is almost always a no-show. That is why good breeders take pride in their puppies.

Those are just a few more points to consider, coming from someone who is new to this wonderful world of breeding. All of our puppy buyers are much older than my husband and I, but that does not mean that we dont know what we are doing.

Final words; research and interview, both the breed of choice and the breeder, ask for references, they should be happy to give you a few.

Prin February 13th, 2007 12:12 PM

[QUOTE]And remember, all breeders, even the best, started with a first litter.[/QUOTE]True, but a good breeder would be followed by a mentor breeder (the breeder who bred the dogs the new breeder is using), and the new breeder wouldn't be starting from scratch with no reputation, as the line of dogs would have a reputation of its own.

Even the "professional" breeders (the ones who do breed for money) have it in their contracts that there is a large sum of money as a sort of fine if the new owner of the dog isn't neutered by a certain date. You really should consider it so your dogs don't end up intact and end up in puppymills or in the hands of unethical breeders.

You can follow up too, you know? Ask for proof of neutering and just get updates on how the dog is doing. How will you know if the dog has a genetic disorder that you should breed out if you don't follow up with the dogs after they leave? :confused:


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