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breeding question

corilayn
November 17th, 2004, 04:22 PM
Hi everyone. I dont know if this is allowed or not but here goes... my husband and I just aquired a pure-bred Dalmation and are looking into breeding her. I am wondering if anyone on this website is interested or if anyone has a website that I can look into for this purpose. I know that Dalmations have been known to have a temperment problem but we have 4 kids in the house ranging from 9yrs to 1mos and she is absolutely wonderful with them. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

mastifflover
November 17th, 2004, 04:29 PM
First of all I can tell you now this question is going to take a lot of heat. I personally would never breed a dog there are way to many unwanted dogs in shelters and rescues. Secondly I would suggest that you get a couple of books and see all that is involved in breeding the costs can get quite high. Most breeders breed for the love of the breed and not the money, most have full time jobs or they have a spouse that does. Does your dog have papers and a championship to go with it. I am not asking these questions to be mean but there is a huge amount of work involved as well as money and do you have the pups pre-sold. What will happen if you do not sell them all

heidiho
November 17th, 2004, 04:32 PM
Yep breeding dogs really is not something alot of people here will want to help you with,and i have realized how many dogs there are in this world that are unwanted and have to say breeding should be stopped at least fow awhile.........

Lucky Rescue
November 17th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Welcome to the board. Many of us here are involved with rescue and see the sad results of indescriminate breeding and are very much against it.

Having a purebred dog is NO reason to breed her. When you have taken her to dog shows and she has finished her championship and proven that is she a wonderful example of her breed who conforms perfectly to the standard, both temperamentally and physically, then you can think about breeding her.

Has she been tested and cleared against all genetic defects common to her breed? Were both her parents show champions?

If you want to do this right, you will need the showing and the health certs and all this costs a great deal of money and takes a lot of time.

The shelters are filled with Dalmatians - even puppies - and Petfinder ALONE has over 1300 homeless Dals listed. I'm sure you don't want to add to that number?

Personally, I can't think of a single reason to breed this dog when so many Dals have no homes and are dying in shelters. If you want more Dals, please think about rescuing one that is on death row because people saw "101 Dalmatians" and ran out to buy one only to realize that real life dogs aren't like the ones in Disney movies.

I have a beautiful, sweet purebred dog too. She is spayed. I have no desire to add to the slaughter in the shelters.

Here is a link for you. I hope you will read it, especially the part about what it takes to be a responsible breeder!:)
Breeding Dalmatians (http://www.eburg.com/~dalmatia/breeding_dalmatians.html)

CyberKitten
November 17th, 2004, 07:30 PM
I just want to second what Lucky said. Dalmations are a high energy dog - as was evidenced by so many of them ending up in rescues and shelters after the movies that popularlized the breed. (Gawd, I even remember as a child when the first movie came out and the cinema actually gave away a Dalmation puppy to the winner of a draw, sigh!! The puppy was lucky tho - he went to one of my neighbours and they were a very high energy family!)

Most reputable breeders will tell you they rarely make much money in it. They love the breed and are into showing their pets want to continue a champion line.

I have a purebred kitten and she will never be bred, even though both her parents are winners of various cat shows and competitions.

Just my thoughts on the issue!

Karin
November 17th, 2004, 07:47 PM
What Lucky said.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 12:26 AM
Thank you for responding. Just so that everyone knows. My husband and I have rescued 2 dogs so far from people we know that just dont have what it takes to take care of an animal. A husky-cross and a pitt bull/rotty. (And just for the record we have 2 children that "were not planned for"... that we still have and consider part of the family) :love: So if there were a situation where not all puppies were not sold they would be considered just that- part of the family. I have researched into the breed and I know, now, what the breed is about. We were not into it for strictly money... we have just been asked by many people recently about aquiring a puppy from her. I/ my husband know that there are MANY animals in shelters and end up unwanted and would do my best to not sell a puppy to such a home (although most of you will agree that some of the time that isnt the easiest to determine) I grew up with CKC with my parents showing Standard and Toy poodles so I, personally, am somewhat aware of what is involved in the whole process. It's just that I have been 'out of the loop' for a little while. (I've been training little ones of another nature) I do know that she does not need to be a CKC or AKC champion to be a viable candidate to produce exemplary puppies. I do agree with all of you that there are WAY too many unwanted animals out there and would offer anyone buying a puppy from us that we will take them back...with no problem...because I'd rather they be with a family that will take care of them instead of ending up where they shouldnt. It just seems to be a waste to get her fixed without offering others the possibility of owning something as outstanding as she is.

Shaykeija
November 18th, 2004, 01:04 AM
I also have 2 really cute dogs. People ask me all the time if I will breed them. NO No No. I become a foster mom to a retired show shih tzu who had 2 litters. Her breeding days are now over and she will be spayed in December. Missie is going in May to get done. You want to cry..go to furbaby recue and look at all the neglected dogs there. As a matter of fact check out any rescue and hear their stories. Enough to give you nightmares the way some people treat their animals. Please reconsider breeding your dog. There are just too many unwanted fur kids out there.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 01:23 AM
Please everyone...get one thing straight (no 'attitude' intended!!) but if it were not for some sort of breeding all of you would not own the dogs/animals or children that you do. (you know what I mean) What I get from most of you that there is not to be any breeding of any sort, at least until every irresponsible pet owner out there is irradicated... and to some degree I agree with you. But as long as there are people like myself/husband out there taking in animals who are no longer wanted and are willing to breed and take on the responsibility of what all that entails with that, I dont think that it should be discouraged. Not to get too personal but I am an only child and my mother at this point is 'AGHAST' that I ended up pregnant the 'last' time with my 4th child (because the 3rd was 'supposed' to be the last) If it were up to my mother....my second and last child would not exist and I wouldn't trade them, OR my animals for anything. And I would take on more if that were necessary... so when it comes to ME personally, breeding an animal is a priviledge and a responsibility I am willing to take on.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Lucky rescue....please do not get me wrong.... I would take on a WHOLE lot of animals from the shelter. I would take every animal that I could take (as long as the city by-laws would allow) but as it is where we live they make it VERY VERY VERY expensive to ADOPT a pet from the pound... that's why my husband and I get them BEFORE they make it there. Where I live it costs at least $100 to adopt a dog. Now.... I am not a rich person.. otherwise I'd own every dog there. If the shelters here made it a little more REASONABLE to adopt, I could see it....last time I checked it was a ridiculous amount just to adopt a guinea pig. There are people out there looking to adopt animals and take care of them but some/most of them can not afford the initial amount. And we are one of them. YES we can afford to feed them and I have a great vet that HELPS us out when needed, but I could not afford to adopt a pet. How sad is that??

Sneaky2006
November 18th, 2004, 01:40 AM
but if it were not for some sort of breeding all of you would not own the dogs/animals or children that you do. (you know what I mean) No, I am not sure what you mean... if I had a choice of owning 4 cats, or not seeing all the unwanted pets of the world, I'd rather not have any cats, even though I love them with all my heart, sorry. And just because irresponsible breeding happened, and I have my cats because of it, does NOT mean it should continue.Where I live it costs at least $100 to adopt a dog. That is a very good adoption fee, whether you know it or not. When adopting a pet from a reputable rescue it would be current on shots, and spayed or neutered, flea and worm free. If getting a dog for free, you'd have to pay for all of that yourself (if you do the right thing and not breed them) which is much more money than 100 bucks.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 01:48 AM
I meant the children... I just didnt want to say that anyone OWNS their children. And I think that if someone has the ability to care for however many kids or however many animals, it should be their choice. And as I have already stated.... I would rescue a TON of animals from the shelters if it were financially affordable.... but as it stands... they make it IMPOSSIBLE for some people like us who can do it but can not afford the INITIAL payment for the adoption.
Just so everyone knows, we are planning to move to Penticton in the spring. And we plan to choose a home with a LOT of land to be able to help animals.. now if the current system is in place I will only be able to help the animals that I can get BEFORE they make it to the shelter because SADLY enough I cannot afford to get them out!!

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 01:51 AM
Like I said....I guess it's not what you know, it's who you know and I have a great vet. I just cannot afford to rescue all of them.....believe me I WISH i could.

Sneaky2006
November 18th, 2004, 02:25 AM
Yeah, I guess I am just not getting it. Maybe I never will.
You can't afford an adoption fee, but you want to breed your dog? How will you be able to pay for everything involved in breeding? What if there's an emergency, and your vet friend isn't available? How will you pay for the health testing?
I guess it doesn't matter... good luck.

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
November 18th, 2004, 02:57 AM
here's some general information about breeding:

http://www.learntobreed.com/
http://www.geocities.com/virtualbreeding/

LavenderRott
November 18th, 2004, 05:11 AM
Children and pets are two entirely different subjects and I don't quite understand why one would compare the two in something like this.

Yes, if it wasn't for some type of breeding, none of us would have the pets we have. Most of us have dogs that were rescued (as were both of mine) and some of us have dogs that were purchased from other sources. Only a few of us wish that no breeding at all was done until there were no more animals in shelters.

IMHO, the only reason to breed is to better the breed. Which means that both bitch and stud have been shown to championships, both have been temperment tested, both have had tests done for any genetic issues that the breed can carry. If I was buying a puppy of my breed of choice, then the parents would also carry working titles.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get your dog and how long have you had her?

Bugsy
November 18th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if animals could vocally express their thoughts... then we
could ask their opinion in the matter.

Every dog owner thinks their dog is a rare find. Now what the dog
thinks of it's owner hmmm.... :rolleyes:

Lucky Rescue
November 18th, 2004, 09:05 AM
If you have rescued dogs, then I do not understand how or why you would want to contribute to the problem of unwanted pets who are being gassed, electrocuted, given lethal injections and thrown in the trash every day.

It just seems to be a waste to get her fixed without offering others the possibility of owning something as outstanding as she is

And what makes her so outstanding? Try to be impartial and tell us why a judge would say she is breeding quality, and how she stacks up against the standard.

I dare say that many of the 1300 Dals who are on Petfinder are just as sweet and beautiful as your dog. The difference is that many of them will die because people continue to breed and be part of the problem instead of trying to help find a solution. And you know what? The people who bred every single one of those Dals ALL said "MY puppies will never end up in the shelter! They are too special and wonderful!"

And yes, without breeding none of us would have our dogs, and just as soon as the shelters are empty and the slaughter ends, people can start breeding again.

Here is just one of the Dals. Sparky (who is no doubt special too) has been severely abused and is now in a shelter where he will probably die, never having known a loving home. All because people breed irresponsibly.

mona_b
November 18th, 2004, 09:30 AM
Exactly what LR and the rest have said.More to what LR said.

As to the part where you said that they don't have to be CKC or AKC champions to produce exemplary puppies,you are so wrong.Licenced responsible breeders have nothing but champions and titled dogs.They are all health and genetic tested.Their pedigree go as far back as 5 generations of champions.These champions are fine examples of the breed.They do not breed untill all testing clears,which is roughly at 2 years of age.They put you on a waiting list BEFORE breeding takes place.My dogs(RIP Yukon) come from a long line of champions and titled dogs.But because they were pets(one retired Police Dog) I was put on a non-breeding contract.And as a member of the CKC for 20 years,I can tell you right now,unless your dog is a champoion or titled,have been OVF or OVC cleared,you have no right to breed.And if you decide to breed an non champion or titled dog that has been health and genetic tested,then you are what we call a BYB.And just so you know,registration papers without pedigree papers mean squat...And as it was pointed out,a licenced responsible breeder do not make a ton of money off of breeding.And I know that for a fact.My suggestion is to get her spayed and just continue to help the unwanted ones that are the outcome of BYB.

Also,I too would like to know where you aquired her from.What's her backround?Tell us about her parents.How old is she?Has she been health and genetic tested?

heidiho
November 18th, 2004, 09:36 AM
I agree yes we wouldnt have pets if there was no breeding,BUT there are enough pets in this world Now.........that need homes,i never realized til i had to find a home for my dog..Have been lookin at greyhounds and reading AT ANY GIVEN TIME THEY HAVE 30 TO 50 THAT NEED HOMES..........Go to a shelter..I could not imagine going to a breeder and getting a dog when there are so many already that need a home..[which i did not realize when i got my gsd,or i would of not gone there]

mastifflover
November 18th, 2004, 09:38 AM
I have to agree with Lucky and most everyone else on this board. If there were no irresponsible breeders or owners you would be living in a perfect world. You are right I would never have had such great dogs as my last 3 which were all purebreds and all abused and rescued. There would be no talk of breed bans because of irresponsible owners and breeders. Ther would not be thousands and thousands of dogs being killed daily or living there lives in shelter just hoping to make someone happy and love them. I think a dog should only be bred when it is to improve the breed or you are a reputable responsible breeder. I say no to byb and puppymills where they really love to pick the breeds that are popular and dont care about temperment or health problems. I am owned by an English Mastiff who when I got him was unaltered due to a health issue he is now neutered but I could have bred him I was asked numerous times by owners of Mastiffs but my guy is not an ideal speciman of the breed so I would not breed him he does have papers I don't have them and could careless about them. But Dals also have quite a list of genetic and health issues some that do not come out until they are older such as deafness being so common with the breed. Is your dog genetically sound and vet certified if not and no championships, leave the breeding to those who know. Thsi is not intended to be mean and it is hard to convey that on the web but my concern is the dogs.

GsdDiamond
November 18th, 2004, 09:49 AM
Exactly what LR and the rest have said.More to what LR said.

...registration papers without pedigree papers mean squat...And as it was pointed out,a licenced responsible breeder do not make a ton of money off of breeding.And I know that for a fact.My suggestion is to get her spayed and just continue to help the unwanted ones that are the outcome of BYB.

What mona_b says is true. When I purchased my dog, after many months of researching the breed and speaking with other owners of GSDs, the breeder sold us Diamond but only on reference from another person who had also bought one of their dogs who we first met with. We also had a non-breeding agreement, albeit a verbal one. When we picked up our puppy, we also received complete lineage of the Dam & Sire, in separate binders. It shows their titles, bloodline in Germany (going back 4 generations) and hip/elbow x-ray results. She's been tattooed twice, micro-chipped, spayed, monitored very closely by the Vet for weight (to ensure hip problems don't occur) and her temperment is sound. But then again, we knew it would be because we met both her Dam and Sire in person and spent the afternoon with them and the puppies in the breeders home.

Will you be providing all the things a responsible breeder would provide? Have both working and show titles for your bitch and make sure the Sire is of sound blood lines and NOT related to her in any way/shape/form?

I could have bred Diamond if I really wanted to, as there was nothing in writing and it could have accidentally happened. I had many requests for puppies from her because she is also an exceptional example of her breed. High prey drive, excellent Schutzhund potential, conformation is exceptional, markings are perfect, no fear, highly intelligent. Should I have bred her? Not if I wanted to be able to sleep at night. Instead I did what was best for her and for her breed. I had her spayed and condemed her to a life solely as a family pet, with all the love that goes with that "title". Did you know that a German Shepherd loses it's hair after it's been bred? If you had a GSD instead of a Dalmation, would you purposefully subject your dog to that? I couldn't, for the sake of money, and look at myself in the mirror, or look at her without guilt.

Do what's right for your little girl. Don't breed her. Instead, smother her with love and adopt a pup from a local shelter to give your friends. It'll show them your heart's in the right place and set a wonderful example to your children.

tyr
November 18th, 2004, 11:39 AM
I do not think she will be coming back....

LR - I feel my tears swelling up.......

Delirium
November 18th, 2004, 05:01 PM
There's no point in breeding your dog. Why? I already own the best dog in the world and any puppies bred from this point forward are just pale comparisons. And of course my girl is spayed as every responsible owner should ensure so there will be no offspring from her directly either.

I'm terribly sorry. I felt it important to make this clear up front so you weren't disappointed. I'll tell Sneaky that you were thinking about her though!

:sorry:

:D

Dee

louie's mum
November 18th, 2004, 05:16 PM
go to the shelter, adopt 5 or 6 dals that won't make it anywhere else, train them as u trained ur beauty, smother them with love and treat them as u would her litter. u'll have the same odds of having perfect puppies either way.
as for not having the money, u'd have to pay a stud fee (for any stud worth his weight I'm sure it's rather hefty) so it's pay now or pay later, or should i say ... have the pups pay later :eek:

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 09:34 PM
I do not think she will be coming back....

LR - I feel my tears swelling up.......
Ummm I'm not sure if I made this clear or not but I am a stay at home mom with 4 children, a few dogs and a cat (which we rescued I might add... just so that there is no grief over that) I do not have the time let alone the drive to sit on a forum website all day and respond to every person. Especially to someone that, forgive the forwardness, but appears to be rather rude and immature. When we move and aquire more land we are also going to be getting a pig, chickens and ducks if anyone would like to chastize us for that. And if it is possible we will be rescuing horses from the animal shelter. I am fully aware of how much work this all is as I have taken on such responsibilities before. I'm not sure where all you people's anger towards me is coming from but I do know that not one of you know me personally and if you did get to know me, you'd be eating your words. I have never, nor will I ever, drop an animal off at shelter....unlike that other person who was saying that she didnt realize how many animals there were at a shelter till they were looking for a home for their dog and then continued to say that they were looking for greyhounds...I just thought someone on this forum would have some info that did not include the crusade of the animal shelter. I know all of you have animals but you should put your money where your mouth is and rescue as many as financially possible. Recruit your friends and family.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 09:36 PM
There's no point in breeding your dog. Why? I already own the best dog in the world and any puppies bred from this point forward are just pale comparisons. And of course my girl is spayed as every responsible owner should ensure so there will be no offspring from her directly either.

I'm terribly sorry. I felt it important to make this clear up front so you weren't disappointed. I'll tell Sneaky that you were thinking about her though!

:sorry:

:D

Dee
What is wrong with you people??? It must be in the water in Ontario.

Delirium
November 18th, 2004, 09:41 PM
A sense of humour? Why? What's wrong with you?

Don't breed. You're not qualified (and I say this with grated teeth since as most of you know I feel firmly that no one should be considered qualified). It would be a very selfish act.

Dee

louie's mum
November 18th, 2004, 09:41 PM
it sounds like u've made up ur mind.
if u don't want to hear (ie read) what people r saying, then skip over the posts.
u can't ask and then get mad when people speak THEIR own truths.
remember where u r and who ur talking to.

Sneaky2006
November 18th, 2004, 09:45 PM
What is wrong with you, is more like it. We are not angry, or trying to bash you. We just try to make people understand what is really going on. You're telling people to rescue animals, when almost everyone here has rescues, or fosters animals. It seems like you're only reading what you want to hear, and I'm pretty sure you're not going to find what you're looking for at this site. Just because you say you're responsible and care for animals, and plan to rescue more, doesn't make it right to breed your dog, no matter which way you want to say it.

Lucky Rescue
November 18th, 2004, 09:49 PM
I thought all the replies here were very educational, informative and civil. I have no idea where you see "anger"..?? (except from you)

You seem to take offense that anyone would suggest that a dog should be titled and health tested before breeding, and I'm not understanding that, as that is par for the course if anyone wants to be responsible. With 4 children, it will be difficult to do the show circuit with your dog to make sure she is breeding quality. And if you have no intention of doing that, that makes you yet another backyard breeder. That is merely a fact and NOT a judgement.

YOU said:
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
But I guess it's not, if it is not what you want to hear. And you never told us what makes your dog so outstanding from a breeding point of view?

I know all of you have animals but you should put your money where your mouth is and rescue as many as financially possible.

I don't know who you are addressing, but many of us do just that and even for those who don't, they are doing their part by spay/neutering their pets and not adding to the problem by breeding dogs who are already so overpopulated that MANY must die merely for the lack of a home.

I hope you will take the time to read this with an open mind:
You want to breed your dog? (http://www.alaskanmalamute.org/letter.htm)

Writing4Fun
November 18th, 2004, 09:52 PM
No, sweety. The water in Ontario is fine. Um, were we reading the same thread? You were warned at the beginning that your question was not going to be popular, and still (IMHO) people were quite polite to you (until your last post, that is :p ). Yet, because you didn't get the answers you wanted to hear, people were being "rude and immature"? Intersting perspective. I'd like to see your responses when people start questioning your breeding practices.

Just my two cents' worth - if you are truly as well-versed in your breed and the responsibilities of animal husbandry and caretaking as you claim to be, why did you come to a public forum full of complete strangers and ask "how do I do it?"? Just curious. ;)

PS. I'm not against breeding in general. I just think the only people who should do it are those who have been researching their chosen breed for years, have taken many courses on animal husbandry and welfare, have successfully raised, trained and shown multiple examples of their chosen breed and are willing to spend the rest of their lives caring for and rescuing these animals at great personal expense.

PPS. Yes, my pup IS a rescue and she IS spayed! My cat IS a rescue and he IS neutered!

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 10:14 PM
A sense of humor is supposed to include just that, humor, not condescending,bragging, arrogant etc. It's great you think that your dog is the best and all but not to the extent that you believe that all breeding should END with your dog.
As for reading what I want to hear....no I read what all had to say. The problem is that some of you are coming off like you are on some "high horse" and that because you have rescued a couple of animals you have the right to plead the case of all. I understand the plight of the SPCA in my area and HAVE volunteered my time, and my sons. And you are right, I dont think that I'll find what I need in this GENERAL forum... if I wanted a lecture (which I dont need) about the need for rescuing animals I'd have gone to the SPCA website or a forum of the same nature.

Writing4Fun
November 18th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Actually, a lot of these people do foster and/or rescue, so yes, they do have the right to plead the case for all.

The rest of us have learned enough around this "general" forum to know that we'd like to put a stop to the indiscriminate, back-yard-breeding and puppy mills that abound on this planet. That's where we're coming from when we try to persuade you not to breed your dog. Sorry if we've ruffled your feathers. We're just trying to do our part, in every little way we can.

Delirium
November 18th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Rofl you're entirely too sensitive. It was funny! My Sneaky is perfect and the best dog in the world. In my eyes. Most people would have responded with the usual "no mine is" but whatever.

And what a dream! An end to all breeding?! Even for a time?! Stop teasing me. I'm not sure I can take it. That, my dear, would be paradise as it would mean an end to the suffering of millions upon millions of animals. All dogs are mutts anyway. I'd happily sacrifice some of the newer mutations if it meant a home for every dog. Of course the near impossibility of that happening is almost hilarious in nature its sad.

And so, given that, I cling to my secondary hope. That one day, some day, only those specifically licenced to breed would be allowed to do so. Required showing, required rescuing, required apprenticeships for years at a time. Required donations to animal welfare societies, required fixing of all pet quality animals. Required education! What a concept: A degree in dog breeding! Investing years at a time in the science before even being allowed to step near two unfixed animals. Ah yes. One can dream. No more newspaper ads for free puppies. No more signs on the sides of roads reading pure bred whatevers, year round! No more random people wanting to duplicate their dog because they look cute in a bow and can fetch well.

What I wouldn't give.

Dee

Sneaky2006
November 18th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Nicely put.

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 10:36 PM
I can honestly respect where you are all coming from on the 'rescuing' issue and having years and years of educational training before even thinking of owning/breeding these animals.
Just an off topic (but on an equal plane) question. Do you hold yourself and others accountable in the same regards to children? You know...with having being tested for the possibility to diseases that are hereditary, being certified in CPR and other medical fields and having schooling in child physicology etc? I know that alot of you dont see the corrolation between the 2 but in actuality it makes sense. I'm just wondering if you hold people and yourselves to the same standards when it comes to populating this planet. Considering that it is human beings that are the ones abusing and causing the problems of the animal race.

Bugsy
November 18th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Just an off topic (but on an equal plane) question. Do you hold yourself and others accountable in the same regards to children? You know...with having being tested for the possibility to diseases that are hereditary, being certified in CPR and other medical fields and having schooling in child physicology etc? I know that alot of you dont see the corrolation between the 2 but in actuality it makes sense.

Let's just reverse that question for a moment... would you breed your children for a profit or because they are adorable and friends would like to have one ??

If it makes sense (in your opinion) one way...does it make any sense in reverse??

Sounds like a warped sense of logic no :confused:

louie's mum
November 18th, 2004, 11:31 PM
I can honestly respect where you are all coming from on the 'rescuing' issue and having years and years of educational training before even thinking of owning/breeding these animals.
Just an off topic (but on an equal plane) question. Do you hold yourself and others accountable in the same regards to children? You know...with having being tested for the possibility to diseases that are hereditary, being certified in CPR and other medical fields and having schooling in child physicology etc? I know that alot of you dont see the corrolation between the 2 but in actuality it makes sense. I'm just wondering if you hold people and yourselves to the same standards when it comes to populating this planet. Considering that it is human beings that are the ones abusing and causing the problems of the animal race.

feel like i'm responding to a troll but hey it's late, can't sleep. why not.
that's why i never had children. no one could ever assure me his papers were authentic ;) (turns out he was a mutt)
besides, there are enough children in this world that need love and support.
sound familiar corilayn? :confused:

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 11:35 PM
I was talking about what some people here require of anyone to BREED. Meaning that before YOU breed, you must be qualified in every sense of the word. Not about the selling of the animal. What if I wanted to breed and keep all the puppies....
You still have not answered my question but nice diversion... re read the question about the qualifications of breeding ...do you pass the test? DO you hold yourself and others accountable in the same respects...not about selling.

louie's mum
November 18th, 2004, 11:44 PM
I was talking about what some people here require of anyone to BREED. Meaning that before YOU breed, you must be qualified in every sense of the word. Not about the selling of the animal. What if I wanted to breed and keep all the puppies....
You still have not answered my question but nice diversion... re read the question about the qualifications of breeding ...do you pass the test? DO you hold yourself and others accountable in the same respects...not about selling.

:eek:
well i know i wouldn't breed for profit or for my own selfish reasons regardless of my qualifications or lack thereof. that includes breeding of ALL/ANY species

corilayn
November 18th, 2004, 11:49 PM
Reading what on wants to hear?? Not breeding for profit, never said I was...

Bugsy
November 18th, 2004, 11:57 PM
What if I wanted to breed and keep all the puppies....


If you cannot afford a 100$ adoption fee. You cannot afford to keep the puppies.

Also...There are many topics that make for interesting controversial debates. However you must understand that we are not trying to win a debate. You were forewarned that this was not breeder forum at the onset. It is a pet forum. I don't see what you have to gain by trying so hard to win your point. In the end you will still not have the answer to the question you originally came here to have answered.

Lucky Rescue
November 19th, 2004, 12:37 AM
Do you hold yourself and others accountable in the same regards to children?

Well, when millions of abandoned children are being killed in shelters here every year, then yes - I would say people should have to have a license to precreate.

And trying to educate someone about the overpopulation of dogs and to educate them about responsible breeding is not what I call "getting on a high horse."

You asked - we told you.

DogueLover
November 19th, 2004, 12:47 AM
OMGosh :eek:
Darn those there puppies are cute how much to buy one???

Good Lordy Gordy!

Here we have a classic case of someone who figured that because their friends want a puppy "just like thier dog" we should have a litter! What a concept!
You know what? I find this rather amusing............. maybe a lack of sleep but hey what the heck right?
I have a Dogue de Bordeaux ( as most of you who read these forums already know ;) ) they are considered a "rare breed" as there are not many around............ and a female at that. She is 2 1/2 years old and has champion bloodlines on both sides. She is a wonderful example of the breed, hips have been checked as well as all the rest of the medical testing that needs to be done........ however, she does not hold championships herself as there are no dog shows anywhere near where I live. I have been told to breed her because she is such an excellent example of the breed........... and you don`t find shelters full of them.
Okay where the heck is she going with this right???? :rolleyes: :confused:
My sweetie pie will not be bred, there is no point. But to get another Bordeaux means forking out a lot of money...........but we will do it again.

I understand that there are a lot of dogs in shelters that need homes, I used to rehabilitate rottweillers and foster them.

I am sold on Bordeaux`s now that I have owned one,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I doubt I will ever have another breed in my home.

Now before I get strangled for saying that I know we should all be fostering and rescuing dogs from the shelters, but personally, I want to have a puppy I can raise and train, I want a certain breed and I am willing to pay the breeder for that specific dog.

That being said, I would rescue a dog from a shelter if it were a DOGUE. Call me selfish but that is how I feel.

I DO NOT condone breeding your Dalmation because people want to have a puppy from her.............. don`t we all want a PUPPY?
You know what the problem is with most people who want a puppy? They seem to forget that they GROW UP, and they chew up your favorite things, they LEAK and leave presents for you on the floor until you teach them proper behavior, they nip, they are holy terrors and IMHO that is why they end up in the shelters!!! :(

I agree that if your friends really want a dog like yours tell them to check out the local pound. I am sure they can afford the $100.00 for the adoption fee and they will be saving another "perfect example of the breed" from certain death.

You said you were going to breed your dog so people could have puppies correct? You also stated that you can`t afford the $100.00 adoption fee for a shelter dog nor could your friends..........hmmmmmm do you have ANY IDEA what your expenses are for breeding? I can tell you it will be a whole lot more than $100.00!!! Heck just feeding your female and her vet checks will cost you more than that so maybe think it over.

Please don`t come here asking us to give you a list of stud dogs that breeders will let breed your dog for free............ THAT is stepping out of reality by a long long stretch.

Just in case you were wondering take a look at this...........
She would probably make really nice puppies but she makes a better pet
and you know what? She doesn`t need to have a litter of pups to have a full life with a purpose she is fufilling her purpose SHE IS OUR MEATHEAD :thumbs up

Sneaky2006
November 19th, 2004, 01:19 AM
I would rescue a dog from a shelter if it were a DOGUE. Call me selfish but that is how I feel. Why would that make you selfish? She's a beaut! :)


Corilayn... you saidYou still have not answered my question but nice diversion... What about your nice diversions??? So many questions were asked for you to answer about breeding, yet you haven't answered any of them. The only thing you keep saying is that, you'd rescue if you could and you plan to, yada yada... you're going in circles, and coming up with questions irrelevant to this topic.

Donna Marie
November 19th, 2004, 02:12 AM
If you cannot afford a 100$ adoption fee. You cannot afford to keep the puppies.

Also...There are many topics that make for interesting controversial debates. However you must understand that we are not trying to win a debate. You were forewarned that this was not breeder forum at the onset. It is a pet forum. I don't see what you have to gain by trying so hard to win your point. In the end you will still not have the answer to the question you originally came here to have answered.

I was going to say that, but I guess enough people already have! LOL

Regardless....has this been replied to as of yet? $100.00 is nothing to adopt...it is whatever else comes along after that that can be expensive. Vacs, food, checkups, teeth cleaning...those are just the standart expenses....heaven forbid should anything happen to your puppies, how would you ever afford any extra out of the ordinary expenses?

BMDLuver
November 19th, 2004, 06:46 AM
There have been many posts regarding the breeding. They don't seem to phase the original poster, merely agitate her. My bottom line with breeding... apart from all the rescue reasons... would be if you love your dog so much why would you risk the possibility of losing her, however slim it may be to having puppies? Anytime an animal or human gives birth there is a risk, so why take it to please some friends? Just an additional thought.

Delirium
November 19th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Standards re: children.

As was stated, there aren't millions dying in shelters each year due to over population. However, I truly do believe there are requirements for breeding even humans. Do you have the ability and means to care for the child? Are you prepared to make an 80 year commitment? Etc. etc. There ARE bad breeders of children. Should people require a license? Sometimes I wish they did. Realistically no though as the situations are not similar. And, as someone said, they are not identical as one would not have children so they could share their great pedigree with their friends.

To whomever mentioned puppies. To answer your question, no we don't all want puppies. :sick: I can atleast vouch for myself. Give me a dog who's eyes speak of experience and personality over a peeing, ball of instinct any day. I outright prefer older dogs and, if given the choice, will always be adopting adult animals. I love trying to unravel their stories as we get to know each other, both bringing a world of experience to the relationship.

Dee

BMDLuver
November 19th, 2004, 07:30 AM
To whomever mentioned puppies. To answer your question, no we don't all want puppies. :sick: I can atleast vouch for myself. Give me a dog who's eyes speak of experience and personality over a peeing, ball of instinct any day. I outright prefer older dogs and, if given the choice, will always be adopting adult animals. I love trying to unravel their stories as we get to know each other, both bringing a world of experience to the relationship.

Dee

I really like that explanation. It's a pity that so many people think the reverse when seeking out a new addition to the family.

mastifflover
November 19th, 2004, 08:54 AM
Delirium I agree with you older dogs are the best. I also agree with Dogue I am a huge fan of Mastiffs and probably have a house full if I had the space and will most likely only get another Mastiff or Mossler dog maybe even a Dogue cuz lookin at your cutie she would look really good with my boy. This is my choice of dog but so far all have mine have been rescues, and will continue to be. These dogs from a breeder are very expensive but still end up in rescues and shelters luckily they have very active rescue groups that pull them from shelters as soon as they find out about them. Because like you will be others come from BYB and have health problems and the owners dump them rather than pay the vet bills. Granted some come from reputable breeders and just end up with owners that are losers or did no research into the breed. But does deafness run in your dals lineage because this is one of the most common problems with them and it is not hard to train a deaf dog but most would dump the dog or euthenize for something as minor as this. You need to realize that a lot of genetic problems skip a generation so your dog may be almos as perfect as mine but her litter could have numerous health problems so if you don't know the genetics of this dog breeding her would be irresponsible. Also the costs involved can be staggering if anything goes wrong are you willing to risk your dogs life I certainly wouldn't. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/mastifflover/lying.jpg

CyberKitten
November 19th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Re: What is wrong with you people??? It must be in the water in Ontario.

and: Do you hold yourself and others accountable in the same regards to children?

I am not from Ontario but think people are fine there anyway ;) (Plus, as that silly song goes, Canada is a really big country, lol)

But isn't your comment a little , Ok more than a little rude?

No one here was rude. I certainly tried not to be and to ernestly and sincerely respond to your query. They were merely explaining their opinions.

As to the second question, yes I do hold myself accountable with regard to children. One of my professional designations requires that I notify authorities if I suspect abuse. And I hold myself accountable in terms of ensuring we do not overpopulate the planet either and that I can afford it and understand all the ramifications of parenthood.

I think it is very similar to adopting an animal. And only registered reputable breeders - NOT back yard breeders, puppy and kitten mills - should be allowed to "breed". As mentioned, the reputable breeders will remind potential adopters of the many rescue organizations.

So, unless you have the time and considerable resources to show your dog in the various competitve challenges and shows and if she has all those requisite qualities, only then would I - if I were you - consider it.

This AM, someone said to me - while they knew I plan to neuter Yin Yin (my Seal Point Siamese)- that I should consider placing her in competions since she is so very beautiful and looks so perfect - and while I could afford to do it, I do not really have the time and am not certain I want to subject her to that.

At any rate, I do not think people here are being mean. You asked for opinions and you got them. :)

melanie
November 19th, 2004, 03:27 PM
i have nothing to add and dont want to but, the reason you see so much passion here for dogs and not children, is simple, ppl often have the energy and time to only focus on one large cause, everyone has one and around herer it is animals not children that is why this a pets board and not a kids board.


TO DIGRES

re children quote- As was stated, there aren't millions dying in shelters each year due to over population.

well actually that is not true, thousands of chinese baby gilrs die each year because of the one child policy, literllaly shelters filled with beautiful baby girls that are staved to death or die or horrendous disease without any humane or medical treatment (you can buy them for around $10000, pretty cheap for a life). they die every minute of every day, and most go unnoticed (and what do you think will happen for the beijing olympics, how will they clean up this dirty little secret :mad: ).

just to straighten that out, sorry for the correction but the plight of those girls is very important to me and to say they dont exist well, i jsut needed to fix that. and god knows what happens in other countries such as those that still have child slave labor policies.

doggy lover
November 19th, 2004, 04:29 PM
What a heated subject. Lets just say my purebred border collie goes in on Tuesday to get fixed. So you know where I stand. Just because you breed your purebred what happens when their pups are bred by their owners who might not know what they are getting into you end up with 101 Dalmations. I worked for a breeder years ago and seen some sad sights, one whole litter lost due to a stupid vet, unlucky pups that just don't make it are you up for that? Also what if the delivery goes bad, big vet bills for a c section especially an emergency in the middle of the night, I would think twice then twice again about what your getting into.

CyberKitten
November 19th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Melanie wrote: "i have nothing to add and dont want to but, the reason you see so much passion here for dogs and not children, is simple, ppl often have the energy and time to only focus on one large cause, everyone has one and around herer it is animals not children that is why this a pets board and not a kids board."

I am sure you mean well but how can you know what causes we are all involved in? :) I for one am deeply committed to childrens' rights!! So, speak for yourself! :)

(I know everyone here is dedicated to animal issues. But I am sure they have other concerns too.)

corilayn
November 19th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Thank you BMD
I guess if my original post was actually read...other than 'read into' everyone would realize I hadnt made the choice to actually breed her yet. And that people had inquired with me whether I was going to or not because they'd like one. I believe my original post said that we were looking into it....

Sneaky2006
November 19th, 2004, 09:26 PM
I'm sure everyone here 'actually read' your first post, that's why we reacted the way we did. It wasn't too late to change your mind because you said yourself, you were 'looking into it'. Have you made your decision?

melanie
November 19th, 2004, 11:04 PM
cyber kitten it was an explanatory generalisation about the passion we have here, ie feelings not what you actually do in your life. and yes i was speaking for myself, i couldnt give a rats backside what you are into, but i was meerly trying to be helpful and kind (a lack of it was the inspiration for the comment), just trying to help explain our focus and why ppl get the reaction they do. but what ever, that is what is wrong around here these days, ppl think every comment is directed at them, ppl are so jumpy and take everything as an insult or to heart and that is how it all goes foul. :rolleyes: :eek:

corilayn
November 20th, 2004, 03:49 AM
No. still havent made a decision...wasnt looking to do this anywhere in the near future anyway since like I said we're moving in the spring to Penticton. We were just looking into it and it snowballed from there. I rarely jump into anything without 'checking the temperature', besides....the cost of things usually makes us either save up or re-evaluate.

CyberKitten
November 20th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Re: ppl are so jumpy and take everything as an insult or to heart and that is how it all goes foul.

I am not at all jumpy, just think you need to consider the needs and concerns of others. (Are you not in pscyhology?) I suspect that as we type online - we write very quicly and often say things we would probably never say in the heat of the moment offline, without realizing the consequences of our actions. As you no doubt know, there are intricate studies of this entire subject.

Don't takt it personally. I tell my students much the same thing. We should not generalize in making pronouncements. It is something it sometimes takes time to learn!
I mean only the best intentions! :)

Lucky Rescue
November 20th, 2004, 03:28 PM
I read your first post. You said you were thinking of breeding your dog and wanted info. I posted a site on breeding Dalmatians with lots of info. Did you read it?

Everyone gave you very solid advice that backyard breeding an unhealth tested and untitled dog is bad news, and we told you exactly why.

If you want to breed your dog, you will, but NO owner of a titled and tested stud dog would EVER consider allowing him to breed with your dog. You will have to find another person who doesn't care about such things either and use his/her stud. Don't be suprised if the puppies have health or temperament problems.

corilayn
November 22nd, 2004, 04:15 AM
Thank you lucky rescue
I have looked into what you sent me and a number of other sites. My husband and I are at the same place we were when I first came on this site. Looking into it and learning, and if we are serious about doing it, we will save up our money (and we are not in this for $), and we will have DONE our research.. which I am still doing. (coz as far as I'm concerned, even if we dont breed her it'd be in my best interest to know all that i can about the breed)
I am not looking to add to the number of unwanted dogs or the number of dogs in shelters.
I also wanted to know if anyone has visited the IAMS website and complained about their 'practices'???
www.iams.com

Sheriffmom
November 22nd, 2004, 05:04 AM
Shae is very involved in that issue.... one of her threads on the topic http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=8527&highlight=Iams+Shae

TobsterMom
November 22nd, 2004, 07:43 AM
I read the first 1.5 pages, but couldn't read anymore. I just want to throw in my 2 cents, even if it's not worth anything. I bought Toby from a small breeder in our area who has been breeding the same line of Golden Retrievers for 20ish years. He was a wonderful man who truly cares about the breed and where his puppies end up. When we went to view his puppies, he watched us and asked us questions and took his time (and after many phonecalls plus signing a non-breeding contract) before letting us take a puppy.

I was thrilled, I had always wanted a Golden Retriever, ever since I was a little girl, and now I finally had one. I realize how many un-wanted, uncared for animals there are out there, I do work for a veterinarian, but I don't regret buying Toby and don't feel guilty for purchasing a purebred dog....not one bit. I know that if we had of went through a shelter, we would have saved a life, but this is something I saved up for and waited for my whole life. On the other hand, I have taken many strays into my home, nursed them back to health and found loving appropriate homes for them, I have saved many animals from going to the shelter.

Now that our child is older, and we have a large home and yard, We are ready to begin adopting a rescue dog. I am very excited about this and it's also something that I'm passionate about.

My point is that I have a passion for BOTH purebred animals and saving, helping and rescuing unwanted and uncared for animals. You can have the best of both worlds. They key is to educate people, which I do everyday in my job, about spay/neuter, shelters, and puppy mills. We will never save every animal or rid the world of ignorant, abusive pet owners, but we can do our best to educate and set a good example. I just sometimes feel that purebred dog owners and enthusiest get a bad rep.

Like I said, my 2 cents.

Delirium
November 22nd, 2004, 11:04 AM
I'd just like to point out for any lurkers out there, because God forbid you get confused, pound/rescue does not automatically equal mutt. There are just as many homeless "purebred" dogs as there are mixes.

I do not want to leave it to chance that anyone get the wrong impression.

You may not return to your regularily scheduled posting.

Dee

CyberKitten
November 22nd, 2004, 11:24 AM
Actually, 25% of all pets handed over to regular rescues and the SPCA are pure bred aninals. That does not include the breed specific rescue groups.

Delirium
November 22nd, 2004, 01:05 PM
Like I said. There we go, atleast we now have a number.

Pound does not have to = mutt. Of course I like mutts but that's another story :).

Dee

louie's mum
November 22nd, 2004, 01:23 PM
I'd just like to point out for any lurkers out there, because God forbid you get confused, pound/rescue does not automatically equal mutt. There are just as many homeless "purebred" dogs as there are mixes.

I do not want to leave it to chance that anyone get the wrong impression.

You may not return to your regularily scheduled posting.

Dee

:D :D :D :D :D

TobsterMom
November 22nd, 2004, 02:26 PM
I just want to point out that in my post, I should have specified that I meant buying a purebred from a breeder. I am well aware that there are many purebred dogs in rescue as well as many beautiful mixed breeds. Of course this had nothing to do with the original point of my post. Like I said, just my "2 cents" :)

sujean
November 22nd, 2004, 05:39 PM
*sigh* i tried really really really hard to stay out of this one and although i think everything that can and should be said has pretty much been said, i must point out that this has turned into very much the same thread as "looking for a free puppy"

that's it. that's all i'm saying in this one!