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City of Toronto Shelters

Dukieboy
November 9th, 2004, 12:57 PM
Hurray!

City of Toronto appears to have reversed its decision not to adopt out the pitbulls it picks up or are turned in. They are posting them for adoption once again on thier Animal Services site.

The Mook
November 9th, 2004, 03:15 PM
AND...reported in the Toronto Globe & Mail today: The Toronto Humane Society will be appealing the ruling that "Bandit", the PB/labX that inflicted bites requiring over 200 stitches to 3 year old Daniel Collins face in August 2003, be destroyed by November 15.

I'm hoping THS isn't just giving Bryant more ammo and further inflaming an already volatile situation for all dog owners in this province.

Schwinn
November 9th, 2004, 03:19 PM
If Bandit is the one I'm thinking of, my wife was watching the news and THS was refusing to let anyone near the dog because he was so friendly, and they did not want anything to happen to him. Apparently, in the background on the report, you could see him playing happily with one of the workers.

mastifflover
November 9th, 2004, 03:22 PM
I personally think that he is getting backed into a corner and is being challenged by the media. I think now is the time to start inudating him and his cronies again with anti ban emails. Do you think the media would have been aware of all of these things if it was not for people like us who are constantly emailing media, MPP's and anyone else who we think can help. I think we should take the last day as a sign that maybe all of this is starting to pay off, good thing we are persistent. I meant to email MB.

Schwinn
November 9th, 2004, 03:39 PM
I personally think that he is getting backed into a corner and is being challenged by the media. I think now is the time to start inudating him and his cronies again with anti ban emails. Do you think the media would have been aware of all of these things if it was not for people like us who are constantly emailing media, MPP's and anyone else who we think can help. I think we should take the last day as a sign that maybe all of this is starting to pay off, good thing we are persistent. I meant to email MB.

Good point. And we have six days before the next debate! By the way, anyone know how to find out the exact date for the debates? If you look on the schedule, it seems to just put it on, and leave it there until it actually happens.

Akeeter
November 9th, 2004, 05:53 PM
to do the right thing.

I don't care what's being said now about Bandit (nor do I trust it either). Vets on staff with THS, long time staffers, & others all came to the conclusion that Bandit could Not be re-habbed. (Are you sure that's why the dog is under wraps, & away from public contact?-He's So sweet & playful?) When these people's opinion's didn't match with what THS Wanted to hear...Out they were put. It's sounds a lot like M.B. to me... :rolleyes:

I don't think this dog will ever be trustworthy around children. And offhand, I can't think of a single place that he could spend the rest of his life where there will be Absolutley No Children :confused: -Ever.

And it makes us look like hypocrits! Punish the Deed, not the Breed? It looks from here like Nobody ever gets punished for anything, & we can't solve the problem of unsafe dogs by doing unproven 'Re-Hab' & hoping it takes this time.
This was Bandit's second bite on a child. His first serious one,- but it was his 2nd. bite.
I don't even think this is fair to Bandit. What kind of a life is he living? (Off camera, I mean?) Poor dog is just a means to an end. :sad:

Schwinn
November 9th, 2004, 06:15 PM
I'll be honest, I don't know the story, so I really don't have an opinion. My understanding that the authorities were coming down harder because he is part pit, not because of the bite. But again, this is from a 5 second conversation that was mentioned to me in passing.

Akeeter
November 9th, 2004, 10:17 PM
marking territory, & who can pee higher on the pole. THS lost the war on animal services for Toronto. Now it's defiant, & goes it's own way at every opportunity. (I've heard a big 6 figure sum for legal costs for the Bandit case. :eek: During that time people were asked 'not to bring animals to THS if they could avoid it'. And some talk of cutbacks in the spay/neuter programs.) This is supposed to be for the Animals!? :sad:

But after what Animal Services (the City Pound) did..pulling all the Pits out of adoption before anybody had said anything to make them do it..Yuck! :mad:

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 09:17 AM
Not cutbacks on spay and neuter - THS hasn't been altering most of the dogs for awhile. Has nothing to do with money, of which they have ALOT. Tim thinks altering is cruel.

And some talk of cutbacks in the spay/neuter programs.) This is supposed to be for the Animals!? :sad:

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 09:28 AM
I have to say I was not overly impressed with animal services. I had to take George there for his final 3 days of quarantine and did not find the staff there compasionate or very caring. I did not want to leave him there but I did not really have a choice. This is not somewhere that I would reccommend I was at the Exhibition location. I really felt like they did not care. So the food I purchased to donate went to THS were I find the staff much more concerned about the animals. I can't comment on Bandit because I don't know the whole story

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 09:38 AM
My experience with TAS, all locations has been very good. It could be because you were surrendering the dog. Why did you quarantine him there and not at home?

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 10:06 AM
George was with me for almost all of the quarantine. But I would not have been able to take him back during the week. I also wanted to stop me and Buddy from getting more attached to him. Because he was a great little guy. But it was not safe to have him around anybody but us, and I could not risk someone else getting bit.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 10:48 AM
That could be why. If you were there to volunteer or donate something it would be different I am sure, a friend of mine works there and is a great person. They see animals surrendered all the time, and it's hard to remain upbeat. Will the rescue be picking him up to euthanize him when the quarantine is over? If not, that could also make them be more jaded.

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 11:00 AM
No the rescue is not in the city so I have signed the order and it is not like this boy was not given a few chances. When I agreed to take him I was his last chance and he bit my friend totally unprovoked for a total of nine stitches. She was playing with him and he just turned around and bit her. I explained the whole situation to them. It is not like I was there to turn over an perfectly healthy non aggressive dog. This dog had problems and was going to be put down by the rescue before I took him and gave him a chance. It was quite obvious I was very upset at having to do this and they were so icy.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 11:28 AM
I know she is outside the city, I am just surprised she wouldn't pick him up after the quarantine and be with him to be euthanized.

I think that could be what is bothering the staff, just a guess.

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 12:00 PM
Personally I dont think they really cared either way this was just a job to them. That is the impression I got the moment I walked in there before they even knew why I was there. When I took him she gave me all of his records adn I signed his adoption papers and we decided that I would take care of it if it came to this.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 12:04 PM
I think putting the dog down was something worked through with Toronto Public Health? If so Animal Services should be aware of what was going on with the dog. As for them being frosty because Mastiff couldn't be there for the euthansia thats ridiculous. I have been through it twice with two of my animals when it was thier time and it is emotionally draining and exhausting.

The Mayor has made his position clear about where he stands on this pitbull thing, taking the lead, blindly from the Province. Animal Services should not be in the least bit pissed, surprised, or frosty when people drop off thier pitbulls. Our so called leaders have put people in impossible positions.

The folks at Animal Services are employed by the City and are there to serve and work with the public.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 12:07 PM
Ok oh, sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were fostering for them.

I have watched many surrenders at THS and they are cold as well, I think most places are.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 12:23 PM
I really think that this proposed BSL, all the hype in the media has put some people in impossible situations. No one wants thier dogs or kids near our dogs, landlords want them out. People hurdle insults and threats in the streets/parks. I can't imagine the insecurity I would feel with the BSL looming if I was in a rental situation. I think folks who may have adopted these dogs had no idea all this was coming. Further, some people really cannot afford obedience training. Some people just don't have the conviction or personal assertiveness required to tell buddy over there he is way overracting to the dog. These dogs require lots especially if they have had a previous owner and with the proposed BSL thrown in on top well I can see why someone might not be up to the task. People who work in the shelters and the humane need to direct thier frostyness in the appropriate direction. IMHO ofcourse

That direction would be Mayor David Miller and Attorney General Michael Bryant.

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Originally that was what we were going to do but she had nobody who was willing to try and I was. So she signed him over to me and I said I would deal with whatever came up

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 12:48 PM
No - the quarantine is by law for reported bites, not the decision for euthanasia, that is up to the owner. People in shelters and rescues have strong feelings on surrenders and euthanasia and quarantines. For paid employees yes it is their job but they're not about to be happy about it.


I think putting the dog down was something worked through with Toronto Public Health? If so Animal Services should be aware of what was going on with the dog. As for them being frosty because Mastiff couldn't be there for the euthansia thats ridiculous. I have been through it twice with two of my animals when it was thier time and it is emotionally draining and exhausting.

Gazoo
November 10th, 2004, 12:56 PM
to do the right thing.

I don't care what's being said now about Bandit (nor do I trust it either). Vets on staff with THS, long time staffers, & others all came to the conclusion that Bandit could Not be re-habbed. (Are you sure that's why the dog is under wraps, & away from public contact?-He's So sweet & playful?) When these people's opinion's didn't match with what THS Wanted to hear...Out they were put. It's sounds a lot like M.B. to me... :rolleyes:

I don't think this dog will ever be trustworthy around children. And offhand, I can't think of a single place that he could spend the rest of his life where there will be Absolutley No Children :confused: -Ever.

And it makes us look like hypocrits! Punish the Deed, not the Breed? It looks from here like Nobody ever gets punished for anything, & we can't solve the problem of unsafe dogs by doing unproven 'Re-Hab' & hoping it takes this time.
This was Bandit's second bite on a child. His first serious one,- but it was his 2nd. bite.
I don't even think this is fair to Bandit. What kind of a life is he living? (Off camera, I mean?) Poor dog is just a means to an end. :sad:


Good post. I agree.

IMHO Not all dogs can be re-habbed, some will always be unsafe, they are animals with inherently aggressive tendencies that no training will fix.

HS's that think they rehab a vicious dog aren't realistic or fair to the dogs or future victims. Sometimes euthanasia is the only way to assure no more attacks will happen, regardless of breed.

Children ARE more important and valuable than dogs. period.

HS's that are no kill are presenting a negative image of irresponsibility to the public that only hinders fighting breed bans.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 01:09 PM
I'm not looking for happy but frosty isn't acceptable either. A decision had to be made. The dog was an unpredictable person biter. I guess Animal Services wouldn't be privy to the personal struggle Mastiff had with this but I think if I worked in that particular area I might be able to imagine how difficult it might be to surrender a dog. As we all know, the City is currently in court with the Humane over a so called unpredictable biter and we both know the Citys position on that one.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 01:13 PM
I disagree, you'd be hard pressed to find a rescue or shelter that would be anything but frosty with a surrender, and with a shelter, particularly one that they are now taking in to quarantine and euthanize. I know the staff there, they are wonderful people, and it would not be aimed at Mastifflover, but at surrenders in general and surrenders to be quarantined and euthanized in particular I would imagine.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Well then I guess they should have a sit down with David and tell him thier position. Nothing wrong with a little advocacy coming from within.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 02:28 PM
I'm not sure what you mean?

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 03:07 PM
I mean, if the staff at City of Toronto, Animal Services are perturbed by surrenders they need to make thier employer aware of it so that he can take a position that might help curb this trend. (surrenders) Further if the staff are peed because people are turning over thier animals they should ask themselves why its happening. They haven't posted pitbulls for adoption for sometime now. I noticed they posted a couple over weekend but for the last month or two they weren't. So if the City's position was they weren't fit for adoption, how can they frown on surrenders? I'm not getting it.
David Miller, the Mayor, had stated publicly that he is pleased with how swiftly the Provincial government has moved on this issue(BSL). This might be a huge leap but I think he is saying that he supports the proposed ban and that means he supports the eventual extermination of so called "pitbull" breeds in this province. So if people are turning thier pitties in left, right and centre and City staff are peed, they have thier boss to thank. His co-operaton whether overt or silent with the Province is responsible for it.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 03:19 PM
Oh ok. I work with shelters all the time as I run a rescue. No staff at any shelter anywhere are happy with surrenders, that's just a fact. Before or after the draft Bill, same thing. Same as rescues. Has nothing to do with Pitbulls. Or with city staff specifically.

And surrenders, especially to be euthanized, are more upsetting. For example if I had a dog in my rescue that I decided to euthanize, I would take it to a vet and euthanize it. I would not surrender it to a shelter.




I mean, if the staff at City of Toronto, Animal Services are perturbed by surrenders they need to make thier employer aware of it so that he can take a position that might help curb this trend. (surrenders) Further if the staff are peed because people are turning over thier animals they should ask themselves why its happening. They haven't posted pitbulls for adoption for sometime now. I noticed they posted a couple over weekend but for the last month or two they weren't. So if the City's position was they weren't fit for adoption, how can they frown on it.

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 03:21 PM
Good point Dukieboy.

I can see how the staff are upset about taking in surrendered animals, I wouldn't be too happy to see yet another dog walk through the door if I worked there either. That's not necessarily always the fault of the person surrendering. Mastifflover has made a very important decision, and she made the right one. If her friend had been a child that came up and pet George and he lashed out unprovoked - instead of her friends arm it might have been a child's face... imagine what that would have meant!

IMHO, unless the person at the shelter is privy to the information about the circumstances and why this dog is to be euthanized they should keep their attitudes to themselves. Sure I bet it's the hardest thing in the world to be pleasant to a person when they leave the dog... but being civil and happy are very different.

I'm not trying to be witchy.. maybe some people just don't deal well with being there seeing a dying animal, maybe there are others reasons out of their control. It's really not our place to judge I don't think...

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 03:34 PM
I would not be happy seeing people surrendering their dogs either. But if the person surrendering the dog told the story of why I would and could be compassionate. Would they rather give the village idiot more ammo if this dog bit a child and caused serious damage then I would be called irresponsible knowing that I have a dog that would bite unprevoked. I told them the story which they really did not seem to give a sh** about. If you dont like your job that is not my problem go find another one. Or if my dog bit their child I guess they would not have a problem with that, I would. I by the way was trying to tell them how not to get bit when taking him out of his cage but they looked at me like We Can Handle It. Well I hope nobody got bit because George feels really safe in a crate and oh well they know what they are doing not my problem.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Oh ok. I work with shelters all the time as I run a rescue. No staff at any shelter anywhere are happy with surrenders, that's just a fact. Before or after the draft Bill, same thing. Same as rescues. Has nothing to do with Pitbulls. Or with city staff specifically.

And surrenders, especially to be euthanized, are more upsetting. For example if I had a dog in my rescue that I decided to euthanize, I would take it to a vet and euthanize it. I would not surrender it to a shelter.

Well, like I said, I wouldn't be looking for happy.

This isn't just a straight forward family pet thing. There was a bite, not the first apparently, it was reported to the police by hospital staff. Public Health was contacted. This was a foster/last chance rescue. Resources are interesting things. Some of us have them some of us don't. The by-laws relied upon for the quaretine were City of Toronto By-Laws. That makes them involved. I really don't see why Animal Services would question why thier services were being utilized.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 03:39 PM
and then there is the question of liability, if this dog did any damage to anyone else or someone elses animal, it could be argued that Mastiff knew of the potential for danger and didn't do enough about it. Small claims court, up to 10,000. $50. bucks. to get the ball rolling...

Schwinn
November 10th, 2004, 03:42 PM
I think everyone has good points, but I'm wondering if it's a case of someone jumping to the conclusion of, "Here we go with another one". Absolutely, people shouldn't jump to conclusions, and they should keep thier negative feelings to themselves. However, people are human, and I think that at some point, they get to the point where they have a hard time hiding thier feelings. I've heard that pitbull surrenders has gone up all over the place, and I know myself, personally, find that disturbing. You are supposed to get an animal, and keep it, because you love it. The animal loves you unconditionally, but you dump it when things get difficult? (I'm way over-simplifying here, but I think most understand what I'm saying.) That's in no way a reflection on Mastiff. And it's unfortunate that, IMHO, the attitude she got was a reflection of current circumstances. Especially since Mastiff should be commended for what I think (in the short time I've known you) was a very hard decision, but probably a right one.

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 03:46 PM
if this dog bit a child and caused serious damage then I would be called irresponsible knowing that I have a dog that would bite unprevoked.

Regardless of the issue we're discussing here, this is the MOST important statement. This is responsible ownership! She made an educated decision and went with it.
*IF* she had kept George (knowing that he bites when unprovoked)and he bit a child you guys would be singing a different tune.

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 03:50 PM
Thanks guys I really appreciate the support and if I did not live in the downtown core and lived in a rural area I would have kept him. I do not and will never have 2 legged kids. I prefer the furbabies. George seemed to trust me and Buddy and we were starting to get attatched to him and that is why I did take him for the final 2 days at Animal services because otherwise it would have been another week till I could do anything. But it was just to risky and financially I could not withstand a lawsuit.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 03:51 PM
People who work in shelters or in rescue may see things differently. I read all the posts, she adopted the dog Nov.1 and he bit her friend on Nov.1, she reported the bite, and the dog was quarantined. You can quarantine in your house. You can also euthanize the dog at your own vet when the quarantine is up. Whether it was Mastifflover or anyone else, shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized. Not picking on her, trying to show the side of the staff, and my friend was working at that shelter when the dog was surrendered.


Well, like I said, I wouldn't be looking for happy.

This isn't just a straight forward family pet thing. There was a bite, not the first apparently, it was reported to the police by hospital staff. Public Health was contacted. This was a foster/last chance rescue. Resources are interesting things. Some of us have them some of us don't. The by-laws relied upon for the quaretine were City of Toronto By-Laws. That makes them involved. I really don't see why Animal Services would question why thier services were being utilized.

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 03:53 PM
And LL1, there are just something's that people don't have to explain. She maybe had presonal reasons for that decision and in no way gives anyone the right to assume anything. Do you know what her job is? Hours? Lifestyle? Mental strength? I don't think so, and maybe if you and the staff did then you MIGHT have the ability to assume why things were handeled the way there were.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 03:55 PM
I'm not asking her to explain anything. Taking shots at the shelter staff was unfair in my opinion so I pointed it out to try and explain why they may have been cold.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 03:57 PM
I totally agree that every dog deserves a forever home and you don't quit when the going gets tough. But in this particular sitch, the dog's behaviour was dangerous.

I personally would not surrender my guy but I am in an ideal situation. Own home, no kids living at home, no other animals, small backyard, decent job, lots of support from my partner, he works nights, I work days, and my dog was a puppy when I got him, so no unknown history. No rehab required.

As I said I really think Michael Bryant has created a climate that almost guarantees an increase in surrenders and I can understand why someone would succumb and surrender thier pitbull. I'm not going to repeat the reasons why. Its posted previously.

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 03:59 PM
Well maybe their attitudes are the reason that so many people just dump their animals, not even bothering to go to shelters. :sad:

Mastifflover was speaking about her own personal trip to the shelter, I doubt that she was trying to belittle the entire operation. She received the cold shoulder while there and shared that.

ADDED:
I too would take the steps that Mastiff took if I felt that the dog was dangerous and posed a threat to citizens and children. If the dog bites UNPROVOKED then there's a serious situation there, shelter staff should understand that.
By keeping the dog alive and in a kennel at home and a muzzle outside with no chance of enjoying life because he bite even when UNPROVOKED.... does that improve the quality of the dog's life. Nope, doubt it. Unfortunately dogs in this situation might be better off. :sad:

mastifflover
November 10th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Just so we have the facts straight I adopted George on the 30th he bit on the 1st. I had George till late Saturday afternoon when a friend lent me a car to take him to AS. I do not have a vehicle and would have had to wait another week to take him to my vet and I was not willing to take the chance. This also meant that I could not take my dog to the park to run because everyone is deaf when you tell them not to pat the dog and to leave him alone even when on a leash even though you tell them he will bite. Some people are just stupid and do not listen and then freak if your dog bites even though they have been warned. My friend who was bitten her mom works as a lead cruelty investigator and she is not ignorant and knew all about George and we were both shocked when he was playing and turned around a bit her hard enough to require 9 stitches. Could you imagine the damage that a child would have sustained. That is the last time I am going to reply to this thread. I felt awful leaving George but I had to do what was best for everyone and I am sorry but safety first.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 04:08 PM
IMHO, You did the right thing. I don't think any of us fighting the proposed BSL feel that the dangerousness of a dog no matter what the breed should be ignored.

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 04:11 PM
IMHO, You did the right thing. I don't think any of us fighting the proposed BSL feel that the dangerousness of a dog no matter what the breed should be ignored.

I think that regardless of the breed ANY dangerous dog must be dealt with. If more people were as responsible as Mastifflover we would not even be in this BSL fight for our dogs!

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 04:12 PM
I don't disagree with that.
I think that regardless of the breed ANY dangerous dog must be dealt with.

Dukieboy
November 10th, 2004, 04:15 PM
shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized. Not picking on her, trying to show the side of the staff, and my friend was working at that shelter when the dog was surrendered.


alone in a cage in a noisy shelter....what? no staff at the shelter to interact with the dog? ok, so the animals are left alone in the cages making noise, the staff hate when people brings animals in...what exactly do animal services staff want to do?

Schwinn
November 10th, 2004, 04:22 PM
*sigh* I think this is getting a little more heated than necessary...

Let me try and present both sides.

Mastiff feels bothered by the fact that she made a tough decision, one that was hard for her to come to. That being said, given the history of the dog, and the danger it posed, she felt that she was being responsible by doing what she did. When Mastiff took the dog in after this consideration and at (from previous threads) with a certain amount of heart-ache, she didn't need to be made to feel worse about her decision.

What LL1 is saying is that the people there are not normally "icy" or "cold", but in this situation, were bothered by a dog being surrendered. LL1 also has a personal stake in this as they know people who work at that particular shelter. In my opinion, I think it was actually a case of "another dog being surrendered", perhaps feeling a little jaded from seeing this time and again, and probably seeing more than thier share of pitbulls. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just saying that it's understandable.

Now, let's all just get along and go for ice cream...

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 04:29 PM
I already posted what was an option.
alone in a cage in a noisy shelter....what? no staff at the shelter to interact with the dog? ok, so the animals are left alone in the cages making noise, the staff hate when people brings animals in...what exactly do animal services staff want to do?

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Schwinn, good post.. but your comment about pit bulls I don't understand. This dog is not a pit bull.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Thanks for saying that - and I am not heated about it, just showing how rescues and shelter staff would view situations like this. This was not strictly a surrender, this was a surrender with the dog to be euthanized.

I have maybe a different view as I do run a rescue and deal with shelters regularly. I also know what is required with a quarantine,and I know how most rescues would have handled this.


*sigh* I think this is getting a little more heated than necessary...


What LL1 is saying is that the people there are not normally "icy" or "cold", but in this situation, were bothered by a dog being surrendered. LL1 also has a personal stake in this as they know people who work at that particular shelter. In my opinion, I think it was actually a case of "another dog being surrendered", perhaps feeling a little jaded from seeing this time and again, and probably seeing more than thier share of pitbulls. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just saying that it's understandable.

Schwinn
November 10th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Schwinn, good post.. but your comment about pit bulls I don't understand. This dog is not a pit bull.

Oh...um...oops...colour me confused. I thought it was...okay, just go with everything else I said, then! :p

sammiec
November 10th, 2004, 04:35 PM
I have maybe a different view as I do run a rescue and deal with shelters regularly. I also know what is required with a quarantine,and I know how most rescues would have handled this.

She's not a rescue nor a foster. The dog was fully surrendered to her, it was her decision. At this point there is no rescue involved anymore.

LL1
November 10th, 2004, 04:38 PM
I know that. She initially said she was fostering, then she said she adopted him.

Luvmypit
November 10th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Just close this thread. everything has been said. Hopefully no one walks away with hard feelings. Both have good points. Both are on different sides of the fence. One has to deal directly with PTS and the other has experience with workers in these enviroments. No ones wrong.

Forget the icecream lets go for a beer!

Akeeter
November 11th, 2004, 12:44 PM
If some of the THS adoptables end up in puppymills, will t-He-y think that's less cruel? :sad:

THS has provided some cash-back incentives to S/N. You adopt, do S/N & get some cash back. I'm not sure if this was stopped during 'Take Lawyer to Lunch/Dinner/Breakfast Month". (Bandit decision & pre-trial work)
Maybe if people didn't insist on it, they just didn't get $$ back. :confused: Weird & weirder are the ways of THS. They did say something on the web site about not funding, or maybe not funding in the future-?

:crazy: I have never been able to understand why THS "management" thinks it's 'Cruel'. Most dog on human bites come from young intact male dogs. They have about 3 times the amount of testosterone racing thru them during puberty than an intact adult male dog does. Bites from poorly socialized, or just hormonal females who have just had puppies are up there too. (most recent Neo-Mastiff attack on grandaughter of owner.) My Vet's take on it is, "They don't Know that they are neutered or spayed. They don't suffer angst about not reproducing."

sammiec
November 11th, 2004, 12:48 PM
This was not the Toronto Humane Society that we're talking about! :) There are other city run shelters (pounds) that take dogs in as well.

mastifflover
November 11th, 2004, 12:53 PM
LL1 I dont know if it is because I said I did not like the treatment at AS but what is your problem if I kept him and he bit a child you would be all over me for that so just let it go. Yes I was going to foster and then it turned out that I was his last chance so they turned him over to me, the rescue was going to put him down if I did not take him. He was unplaceable due to his history and a previous bite. So I did adopt him. I was willing to try and if that is not good enough for you too bad. I don't know if you think I am young and don't know anything but I am probably older than you in fact I probably had dogs before you were born. So just stop attacking me and come right out and say what your problem is. I am not someone who is just going to slink away by trying to shame me into feeling bad. I felt bad enough about George and you are not making me feel worse I am not accountable to you. By the way you may want to start attacking twinmommy she has to probably put her family pet to sleep for aggression issues. Even though this is incredibly hard on her and not something she wants to do, but has her children to consider. But since you seem to have all the answers as to why a dog should not be pts you should offer to give this dog a home then she won't have to do one of the hardest things.

By the way...
It was a Dogue and the grandmother is not a reputable breeder. Then again what was a child doing in a kennel by herself. Yes I am all for spay and neuter it is healthier and brings aggression way down in those teenagers.

Akeeter
November 11th, 2004, 01:13 PM
I hadn't gotten back to comment on LL1's mention of THS's strange aversion to Spay /Neuter.

( lived in Toronto for 47 years. There are SPCA shelters in Toronto & most of the old boroughs, as well as Toronto Animal Control, which took over from THS when THS lost the contract for it.) Only THS has 'ethical problems' :crazy: with S/N.

LL1
November 11th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Mastifflover I do not have a problem and did not attack you. When you post on a public board you have to know people will not always agree with you, and will point out other options available and other opinions.

mastifflover
November 11th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Well what other option was there turn him over and ignore the bites and not tell a rescue and let them deal with it. I do not expect people to agree with me on everything I dont agree with everybody all the time. But you still have not given one option on what you think I should have done. Are you willing to take him?

LL1
November 11th, 2004, 03:37 PM
I already posted one option - shown below. Did you want more options posted?


You can quarantine in your house. You can also euthanize the dog at your own vet when the quarantine is up. Whether it was Mastifflover or anyone else, shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized.

mastifflover
November 11th, 2004, 03:51 PM
I also explained that I dont own a car and work late that was not an option I kept him as long as I could. Bottom line you had no solution and I didnt see you offering to take him.

sammiec
November 11th, 2004, 03:55 PM
Mastifflover, you have no need to exlain yourself. Please don't feel that you have to do so.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't make what you did wrong. Weither people agree with it or not it's not their place to lay blame and insinuate that you should have done different. Hind site is always 20/20 right?!?

If there's something that you can do - knowing the people that work at the shelter and all - LL1, by all means why don't you do something?

NO NO bad dog
November 11th, 2004, 04:11 PM
I totally agree with you Mastiff. There are so many nice lovely dogs that are put down everyday we should not keep the biters. LL how would you feel if you adopted that dog out and he bite somebodies kids face.

I for one have a huge problem with bad temperment and am stuck with a ****er i got from the states for a sick kid for that reason. I cannot find him a home as he is a unpredictable nipper.

He doesn't like cats kids and in not good with most dogs. I can't find him a home and am now thinking of PTS.

I feel that is better than taking a risk that he bite a child.

We all love these guys but know biters are a huge liability that i for one don't want

Schwinn
November 11th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Mastiff, I think most of us understand what you went through to come to that decision, and where you're coming from. Don't feel you have to explain yourself, I'm sure you feel bad enough as it is, and given the circumstances, made the best possible decision for your options. I think the fact that you adopted the dog from a rescue that had given up on George is testament to what point it was with him.

I won't reiterate my point, as I made it in a previous post.

Now, I'm going for ice cream...

LL1
November 11th, 2004, 06:16 PM
A muzzle and a cab ride to the vet for euthanasia would have been an option, many people do not have cars.

Other options would have been:

contacting Joan Weston - she rescues Bulldogs and is also a dog trainer

Contact all breed rescues, some of them would be ok with a bite history, particularly when the history of the dog would be told

No unfortunately I would not take the dog, I run a purebred rescue and unfortunately it is not for Bulldogs

Work with a trainer with the dog in your own home, keep the dog safe when in public by doing what alot of people will have to do if Bill 132 goes through, muzzle the dog in public. Limit the number of guests to your home and when needed utilize a crate, extra bedroom with a nice treat, or a muzzle. Alot of people do this.

LL1
November 11th, 2004, 07:19 PM
I missed this part - when a dog is in quarantine in TAS the dogs are not handled by staff, other than with a dog stick or catch pole. They also are not allowed outside.

alone in a cage in a noisy shelter....what? no staff at the shelter to interact with the dog? ok, so the animals are left alone in the cages making noise

mastifflover
November 12th, 2004, 10:54 AM
Well for your information George was not stuck in his cage and played with the staff and I was not going to buy a muzzle that would be of no use to me I do not have money to throw away you have access to all these things. You know what I am not explaining myself to you because you think that you are obviously better and know more. But where were you with these suggestions before and I love people who condem you when you werent doing anything but knocking everything I have done sitting behind your computer telling me what I have done wrong. I would say more but Marko would kill me and I care what he thinks. Oh and by the way I live in a loft there is not rooms other than a very small bathroom

Luvmypit
November 12th, 2004, 11:05 AM
LL1 I just think you should leave it alone now. Its not fair to someone who tried their best. Not your best. If you didn't help this dog then you have no right to come down on someone who tried at the very least their best they could do.
They rescued this dog regardless, tried to give them a home but unfortunantly it caused 9 stiches to a friend. If they didn't call the animal control officers the friend could of and George would have ended up with the same fate. Either way this dog is human aggressive and unpredictable.

If we could we would save all animals but unfortunantly there are way too many of them to waste resources on a unpredicatble biter.
Just my thoughts.....

Dukieboy
November 12th, 2004, 11:06 AM
Mastiff, clear your messages, your box is full.

mastifflover
November 12th, 2004, 11:14 AM
cleared it out

sammiec
November 12th, 2004, 11:21 AM
Good Lord, we're still on this?? This thread should have been closed a long time ago... Is there a reason that we're making Mastifflover sit through this bashing still??

Opinions are opinons, but when you're deliberatly trying to hurt someone's feelings is that no considered bashing? Are people not banned for bashing on this board anymore?

This is a very hurtful and unrequired thread now. What is this proving other than making a responsible owner feel like a bag of crap. Even if your opinion differs you have no right to sit here and belittle a person for theirs. It's very childish and immature to sit there after the fact stating how your way would have been better.

Copper'sMom
November 12th, 2004, 11:26 AM
Poor George :( and Mastifflover! I briefly read this thread and I don't see what is wrong with giving someone a little compassion when they are in distress! If Mastifflover didn't give a s**t about George, then why would she go through the hassle of explaining the situation and how to handle George when she was dropping him off at the shelter?? If she was an uncaring person she would have tied him up to a pole and left him for someone else to find him. With all this crap about the ban and all, people who work with animals should be very aware of how they are interacting with an animal's owner or foster mom!

Kindness can fulfill your life more than rudeness.

LL1
November 12th, 2004, 11:33 AM
I have not bashed anyone, belittled anyone, and am not trying to hurt anyone. You have called me childish and immature, I have not insulted anyone. I was offering an opinion and saying options that are/were available. The options are still available as she could reclaim the dog if he is still alive. I am happy to make calls for her if she'd like and see what can be done. Not agreeing with someone does not mean someone is bashing.

sammiec
November 12th, 2004, 11:44 AM
LL1, I know you only mean good here.. Mastifflover already feels a huge weight of sadness with this issue; with you're persisting that she should do something different, that her opinion was not good enough - that's really hard to take.

I'm sorry my last post was so inflammed, I just get emotional when people insist on telling someone that they should do different, after the fact. She has done what she thinks is the right decision, and if we don't agree with it then fine, but sitting here insisting that she's failed and should do something else increasing the pain and it's not necessary. IMO. Sorry my last post was so harsh. I just hope you understand where I was coming from...

:sorry:

If you feel that this dog should be given ANOTHER chance, why don't you make arrangements to get him out and then get him to the rescues that your'e talking about. As many here believe, this dog is an unprovoked bitter and unfortunately should be dealt with.

Dukieboy
November 12th, 2004, 11:52 AM
I have not bashed anyone, belittled anyone, and am not trying to hurt anyone. You have called me childish and immature, I have not insulted anyone. I was offering an opinion and saying options that are/were available. The options are still available as she could reclaim the dog if he is still alive. I am happy to make calls for her if she'd like and see what can be done. Not agreeing with someone does not mean someone is bashing.
While you may be happy to make calls if she "would like" I think she has made what she "would like" pretty clear. I think your persistance on this issue is a little heartless. If you feel so strongly about it or your friend that works for animal services, than maybe you should adopt the dog.

LL1
November 12th, 2004, 11:54 AM
He is not available for adoption, if she releases him and allows that, I can try and help. It's ok Sammie, no need to apologize.

Schwinn
November 12th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Ice cream...anyone? :o

sammiec
November 12th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Ice cream...anyone? :o


LMFAO!! You're funny!! http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/686.gif

marko
November 12th, 2004, 03:48 PM
This thread had definitely run its course.