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Animals need help in other countries too

Hound_Dog
November 9th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Hi everyone! This is my first post on the board and I thought I'd start with a doozy. I'm a Canadian living abroad in South Korea. As many of you know, dogs are sometimes eaten as a delicacy in the local restaurants. (they beat the dogs to death with a blunt object to increase its adreneline which supposedly makes it taste better) I as well as many other expats and Koreans are disgusted by this practice. Please go to the following website and copy and paste a sample letter to send to your MP asking them to place economic sanctions against South Korea until the government toughens laws on animal abuse.

http://www.koreananimals.org/dogs.htm

If you are faint of heart, don't look at the pictures. I was sick looking at them.

moontamara
November 9th, 2004, 03:38 AM
Hi there! Nice to meet you. (you're not "petlover" are you?)

I'm a Canadian in Korea too! While I agree that the method of killing dogs for food in Korea is gruesomely cruel and inhumane, I don't necessarily agree with your opinion on how to deal with it. Economic sanctions can be devastating to a country, and Korea is still recovering from a terrible financial crisis, as I'm sure you know. There is a recession in this country, and sanctions will hurt too many people. As you yourself said, there are also many Koreans who are against the practice.

Anyway, just wanted to offer my opinion. I respect your opinion and reasons for posting it here, but see it a little differently from you.

Take care! :)

GsdDiamond
November 9th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Hi and welcome!
I agree with you on the point that the practice of eating dogs (and cats) seems barbaric, BUT, we eat animals that many other consider to be a barbaric practice. Take cows for instance. In India, the cow is revered as a religious symbol. When we eat a cow, we're eating their God.

I cannot condem a practice I know nothing about. Don't ever ask me to eat a dog or cat, but I won't condem a race of people for doing it.

/my 2 cents

tyr
November 9th, 2004, 02:09 PM
I think that is truly disgusting! If, like GSD says, this is the animal that this country eats, it would be a little nicer if they could kill the poor being in a more humane way. Although I do not like the idea of them eating a dog at all! I do not like that any animals are eaten - it grosses me out. Although I myself eat meat. This may seem hypocritical but everytime I have to eat red meat it sickens me....I hate it.

I like that GSD put in a great analogy about cultural differences. I also have to agree with Moontamara and say that putting sanctions on an entire country is not the way to go. The many who are against it will suffer the consequences as well.

IMHO

melanie
November 9th, 2004, 03:02 PM
so i am assuming you are a very strict vegan that does not eat any meat products?? the way some cattle are treated to make it to the dinner plate makes the treatment of these dogs look kind and like a holiday.

just because an animal is domesticated does not give it priority over any other animals all animals are important and a necessity in our society.

i dont think hurting the economic situation of the ppl will do anything but increase poverty. you cannot expect a country to give up a practice of eating this meat that has been around for many centuries just because it is a dog that gets killed, what if it was a cow in australia do you care as much?

im not trying to be a cow (ha pun) but i get really worried when i see a focus on saving the domesticated and cute animals in the world, yet every day millions of chickens and cows are tortured beyond reason for all those plates at dinner time.

but to look at it from a environmental perspective, a dog is probably a better meat to harvest as it takes less room to grow, has many usable products, takes less time to mature and does not emit such large amounts of methane and does not really causse erosiion and dogs can be used as companions, security and several other issues, but then it probably would if farmed on larger scales oh and it is also cheaper to raise and feed. if ppl eat cows and chickens, i see eating dogs as the equivelent to that meat consumption, no more important, no less importatn..

now that is really food for thought :D

moontamara
November 9th, 2004, 07:18 PM
The difference for me is when I see a caged dog being sold for meat, and it whimpers and wags its tail, just seeking attention (been on many farms but haven't seen a cow do that) -- exactly the same way my little Casey does.... also, it's the intentional brutality of the way they are killed... but I also agree with GSDiamond. It's up to Korea to change its eating habits -- fortunately, the younger generation is less likely to consume dog meat, and the next generation will likely stop it entirely.

Hound_Dog
November 9th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Hi there! Firstly, I would like to say that I also wouldn't want economic sanctions placed on S.Korea. Simply put, the S. Korean government does place a lot of value on other nation's opinions. By talking to your MP about placing economic sanctions on S.Korea, this issue can be brought to the table. Heck, I live here...economic sanction would hurt me too. The Laws against animal abuse are already in place...they need to be enforced.

Secondly, eating dog is NOT a tradition in Korea. If Korean people had been eating dog since the beginning of time, I wouldn't be writing this post. After the Korean war, people were too poor to eat and naturally, when something ran across their path, they'd kill it and eat it. This was done only in very tough times. Nowadays, there is kind of an urban myth that eating dog gives a person a certain stamina for a specific vigorous activity.

I understand that our own country abuses animals in the poultry and dairy industry. I, myself, feel terrible for these things, but I would do anything for a thick slice of Grade A Angus beef right about now (beef is super expensive here). The fact is that beautiful animals; usually strays; are caught by these Dog Soup Farmers and abused. Canada, being the number one country of direct investment in S.Korea, should help the Korean people understand that Dog Soup is wrong. I'm not advocating taking away a tradition...just the abuse.

Hound_Dog
November 9th, 2004, 08:03 PM
And to Moontamara....it is the younger generation eating dog. I'm a teacher here and my university students are the ones inviting me to have some, not the older adult students. They even joke about making my 4 into tomorrow's lunch.

badger
November 9th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Hound Dog, when you say that eating dog 'gives a person a certain stamina for a specific vigorous activity', do you mean it is considered an aphrodisiac? What is it about Asian men and sex, anyway, that they think they need so much help? Have they never heard of the little blue pill? Don't mean to offend, just curious.

Hound_Dog
November 9th, 2004, 08:12 PM
I forgot to mention that I saw a picture on 15 large sized dogs in a cage that was no bigger than 36 cubic feet (3 feet by 4 feet by 3 feet). Under Korean law, it's illegal to do this, but police don't enforce the law.

Hound_Dog
November 9th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Sorry badger, you lose a lot of vocabulary when you teach ESL. Yes, the word is aphrodisiac. So are Seal genetalia, garlic and hot peppers.

badger
November 9th, 2004, 08:17 PM
I thought you expressed it very delicately :)

tyr
November 10th, 2004, 01:52 PM
so i am assuming you are a very strict vegan that does not eat any meat products?? the way some cattle are treated to make it to the dinner plate makes the treatment of these dogs look kind and like a holiday.

just because an animal is domesticated does not give it priority over any other animals all animals are important and a necessity in our society.



I would never be able to eat any meat at all if I had to hunt for my own. I think all animals are equal, but it is hard to detach your emotions from the loyal companion that sits by your feet. IMHO

melanie
November 10th, 2004, 03:58 PM
recent studies (new scientist aus july) have shown that ppl can be more empathetic if they see the potential for a situation in thei r own life, such as a dog, if you have a dog and see its perosnality you are more likely to feel for other dogs in trouble, like war donations, if you are close to war they have foundyou give bigger donations and empathy, in australia wehre we are quite removed form it all they say we give low donations and empathy, due to the lack of experience and placement of issue in our lives, very interesting.

so my point being if you have never known a cow or loved a chicken it is highly unlikely you will feel the same empathy for it as you do a dog in the same position, its is all very interesting and great to see the human personality evolve and explained.

i myslef have had wonderful realtionships with a pig, chickens and cows. i love chickens and they are fantastic companion animals, when i see a person eat chicken i feel sick to the stomach and have to control my anger toward the consumer, i know they like it but it really breaks my heart. these animals all have special spirits, cna be loving and make wonderful friends. my chickens are loved and cared for as much as my dog, i even used to nurse them and we would sing together, i loved them so dearly, so did my dog, they were amazing, loving and gave so much to us and our lives. when i see a person eat chicken, i see my chickens, i see my friends and am saddend by the fact that ppl would happily eat the friends i love so dearly.

i have also on many occassion seen how battery hens live and die, cows get slaughtered, live sheep traded in our oceans with sheep tourtured and crammed into little ship til lthey die in pain, i have seen the men on the piggerys, who quite often treat a pigs head like a football having competitions who cna beat it to death with bare hands, this happens in many piggeries i have attended and in many of these industries. like the dogs you metnion the treatment of these animals is horrific and wrong, but they are not cute and ppl eat them so i often wonder if society just turns a blind eye.

that is my point, i know that your fury friend is beside you and makes you so sad to see his fellow dog treated so badly, but what about all those poor animals dying to feed you and everyone else? what about them, no one cares for their suffering, ppl say they do but continue to eat them so i think that is hypocritical, if they really cared and empathasised they would not be able to physically do it. but then again i also have a theory that many vegetarians are more empathetic toward these animals as we respect them so much that we cannot eat their flesh, i wonder without the blood and flesh consumption it may have made us more empathetic as we are not using primal funcitions such as those that kick in when consuming meat (this is all a theory, and no i have not done a phd to prove it and never will, bugger that :D ).

and moon, whne you see those poor babies in the cages and they whimper like casey you know how it feels, when i see a chicken crying in a tiny cage i see my girls, it is the same feeling, disgust and horror. just to put this all in perspective. :thumbs up

now i am all sad missing my chickens, oh my girls we love each other so dearly (they are on extended holiday to farm down the road, they were not happy at this property so i sent them to my aunt till we move again, and they are happy there) :thumbs up oh my girls, my dog misses the cuddle with them too, owwwwwwww.

chico2
November 10th, 2004, 04:01 PM
We've discussed this subject before on his Forum and I agree with Mel to a point.Sure,our cows,pigs and chickens suffer,in transport and slaughterhouses..but we do not skin them alive for freshness,or beat them to death because of some old myth.
Dogs/Cats in Asia sold in the market-place know about nothing but pain and abuse and total disregard and ignorance for their feelings.
I can understand if some poor family has to feed their kids and eat the family-dog,butI would hope the killing would be swift.Unfortunately dog/cat and anything else with four legs and a beating heart is mostly on the menu of fancy restaurants,where the poor will never set foot(correct me if I am wrong!!)
I am hoping the next generation of Asians will grow up and show a bit more respect for the animal-world and that we here in Canada will change our anti-cruelty laws,Bill 22(I think it is?),to also include animals that we consume.

heidiho
November 10th, 2004, 04:35 PM
AS much as i hate to admit it MEL does have a point what makes eating cow,chicken pig OK?????Because we say it is......I have tried to give up meat but i cant..I do what i can,i dont buy fur,would never wear fur.I dont eat veal,lamb,deer..But i do love barbecue chicken,bacon etc......

Hound_Dog
November 10th, 2004, 07:53 PM
I guess my point here is that often the animals that are being consumed are not "raised" as animals for food. They were once pets or guard dogs that have been captured and sold as meat. I understand that life is equal whether it be a cow, a chicken, or a dog or cat. I guess my point is that these animals "were" pets and although they were possibly abandoned, deserve a second chance in a good home. There are many Koreans who would love to adopt a dog but don't feel paying $2000 and up for a purebred is an option. Adoption would be a better answer.

And to the vegetarians on the board...if I could live without meat, I certainly would. I just can't say no to a nice juicy steak once in a while. :)

chico2
November 11th, 2004, 07:15 AM
I once watched a documentary about the aboriginies(sp?)in Australia,including a hunt for feral cats...Yes,it was not nice,but they killed the cat with one swift blow to the head...even hunting deer,moose etc..although I cannot see the need for it,is more humane than some practises in Asia,at least these animals have had a chance at life.
I have no qualms about other countries eating-habits,but this is 2004 not 1600,if you have a lousy sexlife,eating a tortured dog/cat or bear-paws,testicles or whatever from any animal is not going to improve it.
I am hoping the new generation will see the error of their ways and have some empathy for the creatures they eat.
With diseases such as SARS and Bird-flu and people dying,much stemming from the treatment of the animals and sanitation maybe we will see a change soon.

moontamara
November 11th, 2004, 08:28 AM
The practice of capturing pet animals and eating them IS illegal in Korea. It does occur however -- but it is not condoned by law or by the general public. While I understand Houndog's feelings on this issue (and find it surprising that more of your young students eat dog than older -- for me it is the opposite), I am totally against imposing economic sanctions on Korea for such a reason. I realize that English teachers like you and me would suffer from such sanctions too, but I'm thinking more about the the poor in this country. There are plenty of people in Korea (not just North Korea, either) who would be glad to have the shelter and food I provide for my dog. Korea is not a fully developed country, and until it is, we have to put the welfare of people before the welfare of animals. Economic sanctions will put a country like Korea behind in its social development.

melanie
November 11th, 2004, 03:07 PM
good point chico, i have a wonderful friend dan who has a serious feral cat problem on his property, these cats are huge and very nasty. dan hunts the cats with his dog and then kills them, it is not what i would consider the most humane way of doing it but it is his only choice.

i was actually going to mention hunting goanna, when goanna is hunted the poor bugger is chased up a tree, grabed by the tail, pulled down and beaten to death with a nulla nulla (large blunt weapon). that to me is not nice either, but it is their traditional practice to killing this manner, and has been for at least 50 000 yrs. and it is important to maintain culture and continue to teach the boys to hunt in this manner, it is the practice f the ansestors and is very important in maintaining esteem in culture.

humans have a long and strage history with animals, but if you sit and watch an animal kill another animal it is often violent and gruesome, and we tend to forget we are just animals ourselves, no better than another, so perhaps it is just human/animal to kill, kill in violence and eat he flesh of the triump, i dont study paeleoanthropology so this is not a founded theory and just one of mine but interesting none the less. and seems to have a ring of truth about it :D

Hound_Dog
November 11th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Again Moontamara, I'm not suggesting that economic sanctions be placed on S.Korea. You're missing my point. A friendly governmental nudge (i.e. suggestion) from a respected country such as Canada might be enough to convince this country to crack down on animal abusers. It has worked in other areas of the law...why can't it work here as well. The U.S. government told S.Korea to fix their prostitution problems because a lot of the young U.S. soldiers were "experiencing Korea." Now, police are arresting those breaking the law....a law that was in place already and not being enforced. Why is it that Korea has a law in place against Dog Farms and Dog Soup Restaurant and doesn't enforce it?

The reason I suggested economic sanctions is simply because the website in my initial post suggests doing this. It's the same with the U.S. policy towards N.Korea. They say they'll cut off relief funds if the N. Korean government does stop their nuclear weapon program. Everyone here know that the U.S. won't cut off relief funds. They simply want the N. Korean government to wake up and do what is right...start taking care of the people.

Why can't this same principle be used on the south in terms of their animal abuse? Letters from Korean citizens don't work. Letters from expats don't work.

moontamara
November 11th, 2004, 08:05 PM
The U.S. government told S.Korea to fix their prostitution problems because a lot of the young U.S. soldiers were "experiencing Korea." Now, police are arresting those breaking the law....a law that was in place already and not being enforced.

This is a much more complicated issue than you're implying. I suspect neither of us are experts on it. U.S. soldiers are "experiencing" a lot of countries. S.Korea took its time enforcing its prostitution laws because of all the people who make their livelihood through prostitution. But that's beside the point on this forum.

Why is it that Korea has a law in place against Dog Farms and Dog Soup Restaurant and doesn't enforce it?

This is a very valid question and one I bring up with my husband often. I also wish they would enforce the law, and am hopeful they will one day.

You and I are differing on specifics. Our hearts are in the same place, and I don't want to argue with you about this. I get that you don't actually want economic sanctions in Korea -- but anyone who reads your original post (without reading your replies) won't necessarily get that -- which is why I posted my opinion on such sanctions. I wasn't missing your point.

In my opinion, a better cause is animal cruelty in general in Korea -- which could cover the inhumane way that dogs are (usually, not always) killed to make soup. Did you hear the recent case where some men decided to capture and cook up their employer's dog? They were fined with the price of the dog -- not for the fact that they KILLED SOMEONE'S PET! No jail time -- just a fine. Thankfully, that particular dog was worth a lot of money, and the fine was quite hefty. Still, the story disgusted me...

But I still think that this kind of change has to come from within, as opposed to outside pressure -- and you can't expect animal cruelty to be a huge issue in this country at this time since they have so many social issues involving people.

Anyway, I welcome you to this board and hope to see you stick around.

Schwinn
November 11th, 2004, 09:15 PM
I just want to add my two cents. I think there have been some valid points about the dogs vs. cows issue. I've often felt that myself. And I could justify it by discussing pets vs. food, but that's just something people say to make them feel better about eating animals. I'm not going to get into the whole vegetarian issue, except to say I'm not, and I respect people who are. What I do take issue with is the inhumane slaughter of animals, any animal. My personal feeling is we are the top of the food chain, and eating meat is what we, as animals, do. However, that does not mean that we have to be cruel or inhumane about it. Do I find eating dogs and cats repulsive? Yes. I also find eating burssel sprouts repulsive. So I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone for eating an animal. But I do take serious issue with someone putting another living creature through hell because of a disregard for it's feelings. I hope when they die, they die the same way as the animals they slaughter.

Hound_Dog
November 12th, 2004, 01:14 AM
Moontamara - yes, our hearts are in the right place and I'll be sticking around...this site has been useful so far. Where are you in Korea? I'm in JeonJu.

moontamara
November 12th, 2004, 02:43 AM
Hi Hound dog -- check your private messages (top right corner)! :)

heeler's rock!
November 12th, 2004, 09:38 AM
I followed the dog/cat industry in Korea for a bit last year. I was disgusted at the fact that dozens of dogs would be piled on top of eachother in a small crate, waiting to enter the restaurant to be slaughtered. They would be whining and crying, wagging their tails in the hopes that someone would play with them. Some Koreans beleive that lighter coloured dogs provide a better tasting meat, and unlike India, they don't care if it is a national treasure. The Some Koreans still eat a dog known as the Chindo Gae, also known as the Jindo. This dog is considered a national treasure and is protected by government laws, but dog farmers still sell dozens of these sacred dogs on the market place because they believe that large, golden coloured dogs taste best. Farmers are also known to steal people's pets and sell them as food! It's truly disgusting and I hope that Korea will start enforcing the laws already put in place by their government.

Schwinn
November 12th, 2004, 11:18 AM
This seems a good time for this...

Restaurant cooks tourists dog (http://www.snopes.com/critters/edibles/tourist.htm)