Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Argentine Dogo-

r0amy0
November 8th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Please advise of Breeders, or any upcoming litter in Toronto area(if any) or nearby cities/provinces.



Thank You

mastifflover
November 8th, 2004, 02:24 PM
I would suggest getting in touch with the Canadian Mossler Association and also pick up a new copy of Dogs Annual. This next comment is not meant to be a slightbut have you done your research on this breed or do you know any Dogo's? If not this is not a breed for your first time dog owner. They are a great breed with the right owners.

r0amy0
November 8th, 2004, 03:13 PM
mastifflover,
thanks for your concern, and I am reseraching this breed for my own interest-

but it is for a friend (who is also an experienced owner of american bulldog & boxer), who is looking for this breed to have in his home. he knew how thorough I was to acquire my pets now, and asked me if I can keep an eye out for him.

Thanks for the reply.

mastifflover
November 8th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Not a problem but I just get concerned because these guys in the wrong hands can be bad news. But in the right hands are great dogs. With all the losers out there I want to protect these types of dogs because they will become the next target of MB. But with that said I know any dog can be made vicious. If you want to pm me I will give you a couple of suggestions.

r0amy0
November 25th, 2004, 12:53 PM
mastifflover & pabicop,
Thanks for your kind messages & support during this search.
I have contacted a breeder in montreal who had a litter 2 weeks ago.

Their website is
http://www.lirioblanco.com.ar/

and the lady's name is Florencia, and the parents are on site. My friend is going to check them out in 2 weeks, when the puppies are old enough to be looked at.

Though its not my dog, I was promised pics in 10 days by the breeder...will share with you when it comes.

thanks.

mastifflover
November 25th, 2004, 01:05 PM
This is a great place to check out breeders of Mossler Dogs, do a search or post and ask others there are a lot of Dogo owners on this board
http://www.notjustdogs.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=DogBnW_bd

Writing4Fun
November 25th, 2004, 02:27 PM
My friend is going to check them out in 2 weeks, when the puppies are old enough to be looked at.
Hi there. I always thought (and I could be very wrong here, so please don't take this as any sort of "expert" opinion) that a good breeder would have a waiting list for pups, especially for such a rare breed as this. Having available pups on site worries me. I also didn't see a whole lot of championship titles in their breeding stock (a few several generations ago, but not too many recent ones). Those two items, to me, would be warning flags.

r0amy0
November 25th, 2004, 04:24 PM
Just good timing or luck I suppose, early this month when I started this thread, I searched, came across the website, emailed, and they said check back in a week, as they have one about to have a litter.

I got an email about 4 days later, saying that "Ruana de Antares" had her first litter.

I then flipped the email to my friend and he's taken over from there.


BTW

My friend is going to check them out in 2 weeks, when the puppies are old enough to be looked at.

He was told he can't take them home (assuming he is granted one) until next year sometime..

mastifflover
November 25th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Dogos should not leave the mother till at least 8 weeks if they release sooner than that forget them. These dogs need to be at least 8 if not 10 weeks. I would do a search on that black and white list. I hope they did an interview and drilled your friend because any reputable breeder is going to want to know a lot about you and where there dog is going to live etc. This is not meant as a snub at your friend but reputable breeders grill you like you are adopting a child (which to some us these dogs are). Also check out the health testing if no testing or missed tests it is a sure sign of health problems. This is an excellent article you might want to pass on
http://www.caninechronicle.com/features/misc/milton_404.html

mona_b
November 30th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Writing,you are so right.Licenced responsible breeders do put you on a waiting list before breeding takes place.I was put on one.Also,if the parents are not champion titled no licenced responsible breeder will breed.Having champions down the line somewhere means squat.Also,you are put on a non-breeding contract.Something I was also put on.If I didn't get my dogs neutered,I would have had to fork out $5000,each.And I see the sire doesn't have "ch" in front of her name.

Sorry to say,but as a member of the CKC for 19 years, this is NOT a licenced responsible breeder.When they said next year,I hope that meant untill the pups where 8 weeks old??????

I would tell your friend not to go to her.Sounds like she is in it for the money.As they are not cheap.

CyberKitten
November 30th, 2004, 11:00 PM
I have yet to meet or learn of a reputable breeder (and I am admiteddly not as knowledgable about dogs as cats) who does not have a waiting list for upcoming litters. The only way one may find an available puppy from a reputable breeder is if someone adopted the puppy and for whatever reason, returned it to the breeder (most adoption contracts require this if something happens, usually medical or some finiky human who was not prepared for a puppy in the first place - and managed to get through the screening process). This is unlikley but it has happened. Best scenario here is if a puppy was promised to someone (and deposit had been paid, home visit completed, vet checks and other refs done) ad at the last minute, some issue came up BEFORE the puppy left his/her mommy and thus was available.

Anything else imho, is suspect or a by breeder (like that woman (Kim someone??) on our Board who kept popping up just happening to have the exact breed someone was searching for!)

mastifflover
December 1st, 2004, 05:19 PM
You are right especially when you get into the rarer breeds. They always have waiting list and once in awhile you will luck out and get a pup that someone changed their mind about. I got my Puli that way I was on a list for a puppy (not show quality) but still had to wait. I got one sooner than I expected to because the people waiting for the litter wanted show quality so I lucked out because she had slight faults nothing health wise something to do with her bite. But I had expected to wait 1-1.5 years for a pup they only breed twice a year. There are just so many lousy breeders out there, you have to be very diligent if that is the route you are going and do tons of research on the breeders. But I say rescue or adopt. There are some young ones available
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=1&display=&adTarget=468doggeneral&preview=1&SessionID=41ae430f6330dbef-app5&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

r0amy0
December 31st, 2004, 09:08 AM
mastifflover & pabicop,
Thanks for your kind messages & support during this search.
I have contacted a breeder in montreal who had a litter 2 weeks ago.

Their website is
http://www.lirioblanco.com.ar/

and the lady's name is Florencia, and the parents are on site. My friend is going to check them out in 2 weeks, when the puppies are old enough to be looked at.

Though its not my dog, I was promised pics in 10 days by the breeder...will share with you when it comes.

thanks.

although most of the experts on this topic tried to convince me NOT to like this breeder and deter my friend from checking them out, -he already did, and picking his up in mid January.
I believe it will be the 1st one on the left-I should have posted sooner, but got annoyed at self righteous pet owners who blame ME, simply because they dont feel I deserve to look at a breeder they dont recommend, or for that matter look for one for a colleague!

yeah yeah, rescue or adopt, get on a waiting list blabla, dont buy from a petstore, and feed only premium food, and dont buy unless you can afford vet bills, and please let me know that a dog is a lifetime investment blabla..
Preach the bible if you may, but these posts are redundant, everytime someone asks about or express interest in a certain breed.

LavenderRott
December 31st, 2004, 09:17 AM
Cute pups.

I certainly don't think anyone was being self righteous. I think they were looking out for you and your friend's best interest. And the best interest of the dog.

glasslass
December 31st, 2004, 11:49 AM
If I initiated a post asking members to look out for a breeder or a litter, I would be doing so because I'm trying to avoid BYBs and puppy mills to avoid health problems, etc. Anyone can find a litter in the newspaper ads. When I found Den-Den, I thought I was doing the right thing and being cautious. I paid a lot for him. I was extremely lucky! I have learned so much from this board! I now realize that I got him from a BYB! This in no way diminishes him in my eyes, but I'll be much more careful in the future. If I want a puppy, I'll come unto this forum and ask members if they know of a "good" breeder. I'll do my research the right way next time. However, at my age, and hopefully with many years before I'm in that position to search for another fur-baby, I see myself searching in a new direction - for an older guy, down on his luck, in need of a forever home. I'll not be supporting any mills or BYBs ever again!

TobsterMom
December 31st, 2004, 02:01 PM
I have yet to meet or learn of a reputable breeder (and I am admiteddly not as knowledgable about dogs as cats) who does not have a waiting list for upcoming litters. The only way one may find an available puppy from a reputable breeder is if someone adopted the puppy and for whatever reason, returned it to the breeder (most adoption contracts require this if something happens, usually medical or some finiky human who was not prepared for a puppy in the first place - and managed to get through the screening process). This is unlikley but it has happened. Best scenario here is if a puppy was promised to someone (and deposit had been paid, home visit completed, vet checks and other refs done) ad at the last minute, some issue came up BEFORE the puppy left his/her mommy and thus was available.

Anything else imho, is suspect or a by breeder (like that woman (Kim someone??) on our Board who kept popping up just happening to have the exact breed someone was searching for!)


I wasn't on a waiting list for Toby. His breeder is awesome, we talk to him regularly, and even visited in the summer when he had another litter. He is a very responsible breeder. He had 5 puppies out of ten not spoken for when we picked him out. I know a few people who have pups from the same litter (my sons doctor owns his brother) on a regular basis, and my husband works with a lady who has one from his last litter. They are all super happy healthy dogs, all have great temperment. When we visited this summer, he was so happy to see Toby, most of his pups are blonde, but Toby is deep gold, so different than his litter mates.

But anyway, that's a GR breeder, I don't know about rare breeds, but I would assume they would be more difficult to obtain, and I would assume you would have to wait for one, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions and say they were irresponsible breeders just because there is no wait. Perhaps these are show dogs and some don't meet requirements, or something.

mona_b
December 31st, 2004, 02:34 PM
I was put on a waiting list for my GSD's.Even my previous one that I had for 13 years.They came from a long line of Show and Titled in SchH III.Sire was a German import.They came with a non-breeding contract.She even came and did a home check.I had to give her refrences.I went through alot of red tape.Her dogs were OFA and OVC screened.Temperment tested.She was into the breed and bred for over 20 years.And belong to many clubs of this breed.I know of many GR breeders who have waiting lists.

Just a question.Does this breeder show dogs?

DogueLover
December 31st, 2004, 03:55 PM
I hear that term around here a lot and I am just curious how it is defined by the board.
I waited a LONG time to get my Bordeaux and the wait was well worth it. I paid a very large amount of money for her, she is registered, I had a very tough screening by the breeder to pass, I was not, however on a non breeding contract as I had every intention of showing her when I did get her, she has been health tested, but I didn`t get into showing her as my family obligations did not allow me the time.
I didn`t go on a " waiting list" with her but I did have to wait to get her.
My opinion with the breeders is that with the rare breeds, the ones that are few and far between, sometimes you do get lucky and you happen to find one at just the right time. Not all breeders are bad breeders. There are breeders with Titled dogs that are simply in it for the money............ anyone who wants to challenge me on this can just ask me about the Dogue De Bordeaux breeder I was in contact with from Northern Alberta. She has titled dogs, goes to all the shows both in Canada and in Europe, and has plans to use the money from her puppies to buy her Registered Arabian Horses. Tell me how she is not as bad or worse than the bybs you talk about.

I think if you get the right breeder, and you are comfortable with the breeder and this person will let you come to their home and see the pups before they can leave, they answer all your questions and don`t "hide" anything from you, then you will get a "gut feeling" about this person and the pets. I don`t agree that just because a breeder isn`t CKC AKC or otherwise affiliated with a kennel club that they are a bad person or irresponsible breeder.

Just like with Dogues, Dogos are hard to come by and I think maybe you just happened to get lucky. I don`t think that you should shy away from this breeder just because not everyone agrees that his pups are any better than any other breeder`s pups. Take the precautions as you would with any other investment.( I am sure I will hear about this for a while......... however when you are spending a large amount of money on your pet it IS an investment)

Good luck with the pup!

BMDLuver
December 31st, 2004, 04:16 PM
in Montreal and Quebec in general, they are not at all rare. Rather easy to come by. This would be due to the large Italian community here. Searching the web I found several available pups. Not necessarily from CKC registered breeders but seemed a pretty easy task to obtain one here. This province is great (sarcastic) for finding just about any breed of dog you wish.

Sheriffmom
January 1st, 2005, 02:31 PM
Ive seen numerous Dogos on petfinder, and petharbor from puppies up to adult hood. There are also about 12 right now on www.deafdogs.org (many who are only hearing impared).
I define a BYB as a breeder who first and formost does not do ALL the medical checks on the sire and dam. I believe that a reputable/responsible breeder will do everything in their power to make sure all their litters are as healthy as possible, and a betterment to the breed.
I also think that a BYB tends to be less interested in the puppies long term.... (not to say that all BYBers don't honestly love the dogs and the pups, as I know of a few who really care for their dogs, and do not abuse them etc...) they simply do not have the capacity to take back dogs they have bred, and little to no contact with rescues.
I believe a lot of BYBers genuinely love the dog/breed they are creating, and a lot have a genuine (although somewhat short sighted) idea that the dog they have is the "perfect" dog, and therefor they want to "recreate" their dog.
I prefer not to paint BYBers with the same brush as I do Millers. I prefer to (in my little world :p ) see Millers as being cruel, abusive, pure greed driven, with no feelings or care at all for the animals. BYBers in my mind tend to be ppl who are not quite seeing the big picture, and through ignorance are creating problems.
Thats just my 2 cents, and my own opinions!! :)

MIA
January 1st, 2005, 08:19 PM
I just hope they keep the ears natural, they are softer that way, lovely dogs.

whinnie-boo
January 5th, 2005, 01:17 PM
I am entirely with DOUGELOVER on this one. As many of you already know I had a litter of BYB Pits from my pregnant rescue, and I'm considered a terrible owner for allowing those pups to be born and placing them in wonderful homes(taking 17 weeks to place the last one). Keeping contact with them almost weekly). Hell, just last night I had a playdate set up with a member of this board and he got to meet my 2 girls and Whinnie's first born Son Whiskey, and all 3 played for at least an hour with his female. Had Whin not had this litter, I don't think I could have kept her much longer, I simply could not afford what she was destroying. :sad:
Does someone want to explain to me what should be done? Scroll down and look at the picture of those 3 pups, why should they be denied a home because some human created them without our approval? So, punish not only this person who most feel should not have bred, by not paying her for this dog, or having to go to the pound and pay for this exact BYB dog if she ends up turning it in cause she can't sell it (which I highly doubt), but punish the dog too simply because people disagree with what that human and the reason he was brought into this world. Either way, the dog is here now, and it deserves a home and love, even if some feel it shouldn't never have been brought into the world in the first place.
r0amy0 came here looking for advice, inquiring as to whether or not we knew of a litter up and coming. I know of plenty of reputable licensed breeders in Ontario that DO NOT always have waiting lists, too much jumping to conclusions here, and everyday it gets worse.

whinnie-boo
January 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM
I certainly don't think anyone was being self righteous. I think they were looking out for you and your friend's best interest. And the best interest of the dog.[/QUOTE]


What is the best interest of this dog? to not get an owner who wants to love him because we disagree with the reason he was brought into this world? Or let him have a terrible first few years and turn around later and collect him from a pound when someone has thrown him away?
I'm sorry, I disagree, I understand that BYB is not the way to go, but, it happens everyday. Dogs and Cats that we sit on here trying to help probably started there, as did most animals in the Humane society. I find that running and telling people not to adopt from this person and that person is accomplishing nothing but denying these harmless defenceless animals a home in hopes of teaching a stupid human a lesson. I keep hearing MONEY, MONEY.
Well, I'll be the first to say, it cost me 200 times more to care for Whinnie & those pups then I ever saw from any Adoption fee. Its not always about the money, it was about being responsible and placing them, and screening, and keeping contact with them, and getting whinnie back to her old self after the litter was gone. I would never trade my Boo for anything in the world and I don't care what anyone thinks about her. Not one person who has met her would deny that she is a "PERFECT" Pitbull. If I had paper for her, I would title her, But Whin came to me Pregnant with no papers. I don't care who dog came from a "Acceptable Breeder", no one is better then my girls. r0amy0's friend will probably find the same thing when he picks up his new doggy.

By the way, the Dog is TOO CUTE!! Tell your friends best of luck.

DogueLover
January 5th, 2005, 01:36 PM
I know that most of the people on this board would frown on the idea of letting a pregnant non titled dog have puppies, contributing to the over population, etc etc etc ........ however, have any of you even talked to the vet about the possible problems that her NOT having them can be??

I talked to the vet about options for my dog, including spaying her and his expert opinion is that there are further risks in giving them the medication to abort puppies in unwanted litters, and that with dogs like Angel, there are complications with anesthesia that can result in them not making it through surgery.

I don`t think whinnie was wrong to let the pit she rescued have the pups, and she showed just how responsible she was by placing each and every one of the pups in loving homes.

Personally, I have had to think long and hard about when I want to risk losing Angel through surgery and anesthesia, and the more I think about putting her under the less I like it. For now I am going to just let things be....... I cannot imagine losing her ever......... let alone losing her because I decided to have her spayed and she didn`t come out of the anesthesia.

As I said before, I don`t believe all byb are bad.......... if they take the care to make sure that there are no health issues and they find a responsible long term home for all the pups, then I don`t think it is fair to label them.

I have yet to hear what anyone else thinks of the "licenced breeder" in Alberta that I wrote about in my last post. Tell me, is she not a irresponsible breeder ? She plans to pump out enough pups from her titled bitches to buy her registered arabian horses............ and she will tell you so with no hesitation.
Personally, I think she is far worse than an owner who has a litter of pups from their non titled dog. She is in it for the money and only for the money as she was so willing to share with me. I think that she has covered her butt with having TITLED DOGS and going to the shows........ but what kind of sick, selfish human has 2 litters a year with at least 2 Titled dogs just so she can have her freaking horses??? I mean really, get a JOB.

ANYWAYS, sorry I just had to vent.............

mastifflover
January 5th, 2005, 02:06 PM
My biggest problem with BYB's is that most do not care or care for the dogs properly. They are breeding dogs with health issues and aggression issues.


I talked to the vet about options for my dog, including spaying her and his expert opinion is that there are further risks in giving them the medication to abort puppies in unwanted litters, and that with dogs like Angel, there are complications with anesthesia that can result in them not making it through surgery.
This is a problem for Mastiffs and I agree I would never do unnecessary surgery on my boy. He was neutered but my vet did not realize they had to use different anastetic on him but we spoke about all these things proior too his surgery he had surgery for his ears as well so we did it at the same time. He has since done a lot of reading on Mastiffs and appreciated the fact that I did as well. But that is the kind of situation that could have ended my dogs life. As too your breeder I would not say she is not reputable but not one of those breeders that is more concerned about her/his dogs above all. She is at least selling you a dogue that is health tested not locked in a cage sitting in its own feces or worse. Maybe she sees the dogs as a way to get to her Arabians it does not impress me but that is her choice. As long as she conforms to all the standards of health and soundness she is considered reputable but I also think it has to do with your own feelings toward a person as well sometimes you just click.

DogueLover
January 5th, 2005, 02:43 PM
The breeder I was referring to was not the breeder I got Angel from but she does have dogues for sale ( at a whopping 1500 US a piece!)
Guess she figures she should have those horses by spring!
Oh well, I guess if the CKC doesn`t frown on this type of practise I can`t say too much. It is just sad that even licenced breeders can be so selfish :sad:
I hope her puppies at least go to loving homes.

mastifflover
January 5th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Well since she is not your breeder I will say what I wanted to originally. I would never buy or even recommend someone like her I honestly think she is slightly above a BYB.

Schwinn
January 5th, 2005, 05:20 PM
I prefer not to paint BYBers with the same brush as I do Millers. I prefer to (in my little world :p ) see Millers as being cruel, abusive, pure greed driven, with no feelings or care at all for the animals. BYBers in my mind tend to be ppl who are not quite seeing the big picture, and through ignorance are creating problems.
Thats just my 2 cents, and my own opinions!! :)

I got the impression that popular opinion was a BYB'er and a puppy miller where one in the same. I never really felt that way, but I felt I was in the minority. I understand the arguement against BYB'ers, but I'm of the opinion now that if I were to get a dog, I would go to the humane society. And if I wanted a specific breed, I'd wait, or look up a rescue. But that's just my personal choice. I don't think you have to be registered to be responsible.

LL1
January 5th, 2005, 05:32 PM
What do you mean by licensed breeder? I keep seeing this term - pet peeve of mine.

Alot of people thinks many breeders are reputable, and are incorrect. You just don't know - they can say whatever they want.



I know of plenty of reputable licensed breeders in Ontario that DO NOT always have waiting lists, too much jumping to conclusions here, and everyday it gets worse.

LL1
January 5th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Pregnant spays are done all the time. Less risky than letting the dog have them, and to have who knows what kind of health/temperament problems. I would definitely spay a dog coming into my rescue pregnant, with vet's advice first of course.

I don't know the breeder or situation you are talking about.

How would you define a byb?
I know that most of the people on this board would frown on the idea of letting a pregnant non titled dog have puppies, contributing to the over population, etc etc etc ........ however, have any of you even talked to the vet about the possible problems that her NOT having them can be??

As I said before, I don`t believe all byb are bad..........


I have yet to hear what anyone else thinks of the "licenced breeder" in Alberta that I wrote about in my last post. Tell me, is she not a irresponsible breeder ?

DogueLover
January 5th, 2005, 08:17 PM
I think that the term back yard breeder is derogatory, and that they are considered uneducated, ignorant and selfish money hungry idiots. I don`t know how I would define a back yard breeder........... I went to a breeder who`s dogs were titled and the dogs were FIC registered( as was the litter).
The breeder did not have a "kennel" set up with her dogs living seperate from her home, they lived in the home with her as a DOGUE should.
Because CKC does not recognize Dogue De Bordeaux as a registered breed the breeder could not register them that way, but they are registered.

The breeder I talked about in my rant and the situation can be found in the earlier posts by me on this thread. She is irresponsible and ignorant. The way she views her dogs disgusts me but of course because her dogs are shown and she has TITLED dogs somehow she is considered responsible and a good breeder.............. since that is what I have heard from too many people on this site. In my opinion, she is just a money hungry witch whos only concern is how many pups she can pump out in a year.

BYB to me is someone with a dog that they breed without having titled dogs, and without registering them with the CKC.

If you have any other questions about this breeder of Bordeaux`s in Northern Alberta ( not where mine came from I would not buy a pup from this woman and I hope no one else does) please email or pm me and I will be glad to pass on the story.

It was my vet that told me about the risks of spaying a pregnant dog and also about the risks with anesthesia on Bordeaux`s.

I wish there were a way to have some recourse for all breeders with dogs. As for going to a shelter for a dog........ I have done it in the past but did not when looking for my Bordeaux and won`t apologize for getting her from a breeder. I waited a long time for her and have no regrets.

mona_b
January 6th, 2005, 11:34 AM
ALL purebred dogs must be registered with the CKC.This shows that the dog is purebred.It is illegal in the CKC legal act to sell pups without the registration papers if the parents are registered.This is a fact.I have been an active member with the CKC for 20 years now.I have been going to the shows for many years here in Ontario.And some of the ones who show are also in Agility,Tracking and Field.I know many of the breeders.And I know the owner of one of the Champion Dogue's here in Ontario.

BYB's also breed registered dogs.

This is a BYB.
Is not a member of the CKC.
One who doesn't test for health and genetics.
Doesn't belong to any clubs of their breed.
Gives up the pups to early.
Doesn't do temperment testing.
Does not have titled or Champion dogs.
Knows nothing of the backround to the pedigree.
No written health guarentees.
Breeds in the first heat.
Doesn't do any backround checks on the buyer.
Doesn't take back the pup.
Breeds more then they should.
Is not involved in breed rescue.
Sells to any Joe Blow who wants a pup.
Advertises in the paper.
Will sell with or without papers.
Is not tatooed or chipped.
Will not help pay vet cost should something happen to your new pup.
Doesn't have either sire or dam x-rayed.
Doen't have a spay/neuter contract.
Will breed an aggressive dog.

Need I go on?

Dogue,pm me with this breeders kennel name.I'm interested on who she is.I can even do a check.Cause I'm sorry,but I find it hard to believe.

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 11:44 AM
She has pups advertised on the net. She used to live in the States but now lives in Northern Alberta. I will get the info and you can check it out.
Thanks for the clarification on BYB unfortunately, this woman almost fits the description to a T.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Good points Mona - alot of people don't know that some very well known and thought to be reputable breeders (which is why I always say you don't know if they are reputable or not unless, on top of the obvious, you try and return a dog to them) don't take their OWN dogs back, never mind ever helping dogs from the breed that they say they love? Most breed rescues get very little if any support from breeders. The ones that do are a rarity and usually for breeds that don't often land in need of rescue.

mona_b
January 6th, 2005, 12:03 PM
When you get the info,send it to me.

Just so you know,these breeders who show and have titled dogs are never classified as BYB's in anyway.They are members of the CKC and MUST pass the code of ethics,or they would not be showing.Trust me,this is know.I actually have a friend of the family who is showing his Afghan.No he is not a breeder.He just shows. :)

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Classified by who as a BYB? That's ridiculous. Showing and having titled dogs means nothing - they absolutely can be BYBs. The code of ethics is very basic and doesn't require them to be held to a high standard - go read it, it's an eye opener.
When you get the info,send it to me.

Just so you know,these breeders who show and have titled dogs are never classified as BYB's in anyway.They are members of the CKC and MUST pass the code of ethics,or they would not be showing.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Nothing listed about most of the common points of a BYB - you absolutely can be a BYB and still pass the code of ethics:

-----------------------------------------------------------
In order to achieve the goals and objectives of The Canadian Kennel Club, its members agree to adhere to the following principles:


All members of The Canadian Kennel Club will comply with the By-laws, rules and regulations established by the Board of Directors of The Canadian Kennel Club and the requirements of the Animal Pedigree Act;

All members of The Canadian Kennel Club will provide their dogs with appropriate housing, food and health care as outlined in the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association's "Code of Practice for Canadian Kennel Operations";

All members of The Canadian Kennel Club will endeavour to enhance the role of the purebred dog in society as an essential member of its communities where it functions as a companion, a guardian, a healer, a hunter, a herder, a teacher and, above all, "man's best friend";

In order to preserve and enhance each breed's characteristics The Canadian Kennel Club supports and encourages participation in shows, trials and other events. All members, whether they be exhibitors, handlers, judges or assistants will participate in such activities with honesty, fairness and integrity, ever mindful of the practice of "good sportsmanship";

Except as provided in the By-laws of The Canadian Kennel Club, all members as breeders of purebred dogs, will include in their programs, only Canadian Kennel Club registered (or registerable) stock which will strengthen the genetic pool and, thus, guarantee further progression toward the ideals of the standard, keeping authentic records of their activities;

All members of The Canadian Kennel Club will undertake the task of educating and encouraging all newcomers to the world of purebred dogs no matter their interest: pet owner, exhibitor, trialer or breeder.

mona_b
January 6th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Classified by who as a BYB? That's ridiculous. Showing and having titled dogs means nothing - they absolutely can be BYBs. The code of ethics is very basic and doesn't require them to be held to a high standard - go read it, it's an eye opener.

It does make a very big difference.Do you know breeders?Have you gone to shows?Do you know anything about showing and titled dogs?Why must you always argue?I've been seeing you do this with other people.No they can NOT be BYB's.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 01:05 PM
I'm not arguing - I am telling you facts. Yes I know many breeders and have been to shows. Being in rescue, I know what is and is not required of breeders. They are not required to take their own dogs back, show their dogs, have champions or titled dogs etc or many of the things on your BYB list. And many big name breeders big in the show circuit fall into that group. That's not arguing - those are the facts. BYB is a term we all define differently. The CKC is a registry - that's it - they don't ensure breeders are not BYBs.

From the CKC - The use of the phrase"CKC Registered"means the dog is registered as a purebred dog.It is not an endorsement of the health/quality of the animal nor an endorsement of the operating practices of the breeder.It does not mean that the breeder is "registered"or "licensed".No breeders are issued licences by the CKC or any other organization.

I wish it were different but that is the reality.

Schwinn
January 6th, 2005, 03:44 PM
As for going to a shelter for a dog........ I have done it in the past but did not when looking for my Bordeaux and won`t apologize for getting her from a breeder. I waited a long time for her and have no regrets.

Hope my post wasn't giving the impression of being a judgement against buying from a breeder. Personally, I probably wouldn't, but that's just my personal choice, not a judgement. I don't think I'd have any regrets with your dogue either ;)

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 02:00 AM
Showing and being titled means EVERYTHING.BYB's don't show or have titled dogs.You will never see a BYB showing their dog.NEVER.

Your telling me the fact?That's a good one.

Absalutely NO big name in the show circuit falls under the BYB catagory what so ever.These ARE the facts.Yes the CKC club is a registry,BUT they are very active in the show world.The CKC is not just a registry,There is more to them than just that.I go to the meetings so I know.They are against BYB's and Puppy Mills.

Yes this is link is talking about Boxers,but this goes for any breeder.I did have another one,but lost it when I re-formated the comp
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html

Breeders aren't required to take back their dogs or show/title dogs?Where on earth did you hear that one?

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 10:43 AM
No Mona - I disagree. Being in rescue, people get an inside look at what breeders are really like. Showing and titling does NOT mean you are not a BYB - I'm using the list you posted of what you think a BYB is not. My list would be more stringent than yours, but even yours has things on it that CKC does not require. Lots of folks in the show world do not take their own dogs back,never mind help breed rescue in any way. I have taken in dogs when their breeders would not. These are well known people. Some shelters ask me to call and get tattoo info and I will call the breeders for them. I have also called breeders when their dogs have landed in my rescue. You are not in rescue Mona - you don't know. As I have said, unless you call a breeder to take their own dog back you don't know if they do. Rescues will know.

The CKC is a registry with opinions on various matters, they do not police breeders. No more than the AKC does.

You show me where the CKC requires breeders to take their dogs back and show/title dogs? And how many litters they can have. And where they require breeders to financially assist buyers with problems rather than replacement pups. Or where they require the dogs to be inside and not in kennels. And so on, and so on. You're misinformed.


Showing and being titled means EVERYTHING.BYB's don't show or have titled dogs.You will never see a BYB showing their dog.NEVER.

Your telling me the fact?That's a good one.

Absalutely NO big name in the show circuit falls under the BYB catagory what so ever.These ARE the facts.Yes the CKC club is a registry,BUT they are very active in the show world.The CKC is not just a registry,There is more to them than just that.I go to the meetings so I know.They are against BYB's and Puppy Mills.

Breeders aren't required to take back their dogs or show/title dogs?Where on earth did you hear that one?

r0amy0
February 7th, 2005, 12:48 PM
An update:
Just wanted to share some pics forwarded to me...as I started this thread back in November, about information on breeders etc..and where to find more information on Dogos on behalf of my friend...


Still not named, but my friend was succesful in acquiring her..Will be picking her up in a few weeks. She should be almost 15 weeks old now.

she-rasuperdog
February 15th, 2005, 01:36 PM
I noticed it said you have an argentine dogo?? I have a dogo as well and she has major skin problems. I wondered if you went through the same thing with your dog. I am out of ideas and feel so bad for her. About 3,000 dollars later the vet doesn't know what to do. She has red bumps all over her body and she just itches and chews constantly. She will do this to the point of bleeding and scabbing. I just wanted to see if you had any similar problems. THe breeder mentioned her pups having the same problems but their rashes went away at 6 months and my dogs hasn't. She is about 10 months old and the cutest thing ever. ! If you have any advise please feel free to jump in and let me know.

Thanks a million!

Kristi

Writing4Fun
February 15th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Could it be a food allergy? What kind of food do you have her on?

These are beautiful dogs! Can we see a pic of yours, she-ra? :D

she-rasuperdog
February 15th, 2005, 01:55 PM
We've actually tried changing food, about 4 times and eventually went to cooking her rice and chicken ever night. The rice seemed to help and then she went right back. Everytime we think something is working, she just goes right back a week later. The only thing that has cleared her up completely was a prednazone (sp?) shot from the vet. She was pearly white with no red to her at all. It was wonderful and she was so full of energy. About at week and a half later she went back to itchy and scratchy. I will post a pic. I'm not very good with the computer so I will see if I can do this right. ;)

mastifflover
February 15th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Have you considered putting her on a fish based food like Fromm they have a natural line and it contains no meat but fish which is so beneficial to our dogs coats it is an excellent food from what I have heard and by the ingredient breakdown, no allergens and excellent supplements. I would suggest you try this food out because it really sounds like an allergy, poor girl

Ingredients:
Whitefish, Potato, Menhaden Fish Meal, Sweet Potato, Brown Rice, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, White Rice, Herring Meal, While Dried Egg, Millet, Dried Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Oat Hulls, Cheese, Flaxseed, Menhaden Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Apples, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Monosodium Phosphate, Calcium Sulfate, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Chicory Root Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Alfalfa Sprouts, Yucca Schidigera, Folic Acid, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Enterococcous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein 23% Minimum Fiber 3.5% Maximum
Fat 11% Minimum Moisture 10% Maximum
Ash 6.5% Maximum

Calcium 1.0% Vitamin A 18,200 IU/kg
Phosphorus 0.85% Vitamin D 1,300 IU/kg
Sodium 0.4% Vitamin E 180 IU/kg
Potassium 0.6% Vitamin K 1.52 mg/kg
Magnesium 0.12% Vitamin B12 0.10 mg/kg
Zinc 135 mg/kg Choline Chloride 2,320 mg/kg
Iron 229 mg/kg Niacin 82 mg/kg
Manganese 70 mg/kg Pantothenic Acid 26 mg/kg
Copper 11.0 mg/kg Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 38 mg/kg
Cobalt 0.4 mg/kg Riboflavin 7 mg/kg
Iodine 1.53 mg/kg Thiamine 8.7 mg/kg
Selenium 0.47 mg/kg Pyridoxine 4.2 mg/kg
Iodine 1.53 mg/kg Thiamine 8.7 mg/kg
Glucosamine 400 ppm Folic Acid 1.4 mg/kg
Chondroiten 40 ppm Biotin 0.3 mg/kg

Lucky Rescue
February 15th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Cooked chicken and rice is a woefully inadequate diet. Prednisone works wonders, but is a powerful drug with very serious side effects.

I wonder if you have thought of feeding her a raw diet? I've heard of this helping with allergies like this.

mastifflover
February 15th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Also about the Fromm food. I was also thinking as Lucky suggested raw diet but I think I would give this fish one a try

Especially beneficial for dogs with:
Sensitive Stomachs
Picky Eating Habits
Allergies to Corn or Wheat
Hypoallergenic Reactions
Itchy or Flaky Skin
Intolerancy to Chicken
Fromm Four-Star Nutritionals Fish and Potato contains Fresh Fish, Vegetables, and Fruit. In addition, this food includes a combination of Probiotics and Prebiotics to enhance the growth of beneficial bacteria, and inhibit the growth of harmful bacteria such as E. coli and Salmonella. This product does not contain Corn or Wheat. Instead, Specialty Grains like Barley, Rice, Oats and Potato are used as the carbohydrate source. Fromm Four-Star Nutritionals Fish & Potato provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.

she-rasuperdog
February 15th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Thank you all so much for your helpful tips. I guess it's the grocery store tonight for me. We did try a salmon type food at petsmart and that sent her skin on an even worse flare up. So I am going to consult the vet before we go and do this, but it's worth a shot to me. Again, thanks for all your wonderful advise. She-ra thanks you too. :sick: :)

mesaana
February 15th, 2005, 05:02 PM
I just wanted to add a few things about the skin problem...
Most common causes of itchy skin in dogs:
-skin parasites
-infections
-allergies, most frequently to food, but also to environment (pollen, dander, cat hair, etc... just like humans) or to skin parasites

What to do:
- look for skin parasites, even if you don't find any on microscopic examination, treat anyway, just in case (2 or 3 doses of Revolution will do the trick)
- look for any sign that the skin may be infected: that means look for pustules and do a microscopic examination to look for bacteria or fungus. If the skin is infected, corticosteroids (like prednisone) are not indicated. They will only hide symptoms, not treat them. Treat with antibiotics for at least 2 weeks after complete resolution of symptoms. That usually means a minimum of 6 to 8 weeks.
- then, consider allergies
- an attempt at diagnosing food allergies should take 10-12 weeks. Changing foods every 3 weeks is useless. Ideally, use one source of protein and one source of carbohydrated the dog has never tried. Home made is the best. Trying all these different foods with different ingredients makes this harder. For example, you can try horse and potatoes, or game meat (if you have a hunter in the family). Again, only that for 10 weeks. Nothing else. No bones, no rawhide, no biscuits, nada. If there is no improvement after 10 weeks, stop. It's not a food allergy. If there is improvement, go back to previous food if you want to be certain: the symptoms should come back. Once you know it's a food allergy, then you can start adding ingredients one at a time so you can find out which one it is. Or you can start trying different kinds of foods.
- if it's not a food allergy, you can consider getting an allergy test. But only if you're planning on desensitization shots. Otherwise, there's not much point and it's expensive for nothing.

These are not ALL the causes but the most frequent. Talk to your vet.

Hope this helps

Lyne

Forgot something: if you have done all that, ask for a referral to a veterinary dermatologist.