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The BSL still has to pass legislation, its only now purposed

Luvmypit
October 15th, 2004, 10:09 AM
We can still fight this guys don't give up!

pitbulliest
October 15th, 2004, 11:20 AM
If anyone has the contact info of any of the MPPs, please please PLEASE post it on here you guys..we have alot of writing to do..and alot of educating people to do... we need as much support as we can get right now...so that as many people as possible can write to the MPs and let them know that we definately DO NOT agree with Bryants decision!

Please guys..this is more urgent than ever...I will try looking for the contact info of the MPs right now and post it as soon as I find some...everyone else please try to do the same..the more contacts the better!

mastifflover
October 15th, 2004, 11:28 AM
This is ludicrous and you are right we need to bombard these people with weell written and factual emails and faxes and letters. Jam their emails and faxes but don't do it with irrate irrational rantings. We ned to remain level headed so we are taken seriously. Hit citytv.com speakers corner with your views and anywhere else you can get your message out. Put petitions in your dog parks.

pitbulliest
October 15th, 2004, 11:39 AM
You guys..I'm sitting here and crying..this is so unfair

Here are some of the contacts that I've found..I'm looking for more though:

Provincial Government Office Constituency Office
Julia Munro, MPP York-North
Room 156
Legislative Building, Queen’s Park
Toronto, Ontario
M7A 1A8

Telephone: (416) 325-3392
Fax: (416) 325-3466
Website: http://www.gov.on.ca 17705 Leslie Street
Suite 103
Newmarket, Ontario
L3Y 3E3
Telephone: (905) 898-8514
Fax: (905) 898-8517
Website: http://www.juliamunrompp.com/

Federal Government Office Constituency Office
Karen Kraft Sloan, MP York-North
Room 466
Confederation Building.
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6
Toll-free: 1 (800) 461-8791
e-Mail: kraftk@parl.gc.ca
Website: http://www.canada.gc.ca
665 Davis Drive
Unit 102
Newmarket, Ontario
L3Y 2R2
905/289 Area: (905) 836-9586 or (905) 836-7303
Ottawa: (613) 996-7752
Website: http://www.karenkraftsloan.com/

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/mpscur.asp?lang=E
Here's a list with all the members of parliament...^

http://www.balkanpeace.org/getmp/index.shtml
And here is another one

If anyone has any OTHER contact sheets that have addresses, etc..please please post them...

LL1
October 15th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Names, addresses and emails are here, it's provincial:

http://olaap.ontla.on.ca/laompp/daCurMbr.do?locale=en

Luvmypit
October 15th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Good work, I think we should all write one email each , include all MPPs email addresses there and call for any if not all to join our fight. There has to be atleast one that will agree with us. They can't all be stupid.

Copper'sMom
October 15th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Lovemypit,

God bless you for your determination. :love:

pitbulliest
October 15th, 2004, 12:22 PM
LL1..that website isn't loading for me.. :(

LL1
October 15th, 2004, 12:31 PM
It's a bit slow but working for me - do you want them cut and pasted - it's a ton of info.

Dukieboy
October 15th, 2004, 03:05 PM
You can find out who your MPP is at this site:

http://www.electionsontario.on.ca/en/home_en.shtml

Contact at this site:

http://olaap.ontla.on.ca/laompp/daIndex.do?locale=en

Dukieboy
October 15th, 2004, 03:12 PM
CP24 telephone poll 416-870-4400 Your no vote will be registered.
Results this eve. Call now, call often.

Dukieboy
October 15th, 2004, 03:18 PM
I don't have a computer at home so I can't do this but if someone has the time, you could email all MPP's with a quick note and paste the petition in the email its at over 1200 sigs right now.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?newban2

Dukieboy
October 15th, 2004, 03:22 PM
Final note, its closing time here. No computer at home. A new Toronto American Pitbull Meet Up group is forming. Visit this site: http://apbt.meetup.com/49/boards/
The mix doesn't matter as long as your dog likes other dogs.
if you are interested in joining. Our next meet is planned for Withrow on Oct 23rd, 3pm. Maybe we can do some organizing there.

sammiec
October 15th, 2004, 03:37 PM
K, why does it say that there is a message from Dinah, but there's not... i'm losing it again!! http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/134.gif

chico2
October 15th, 2004, 03:40 PM
I called 15 times to CP24,just keep calling every call registers a No-Vote..
From Dukieboy...416-870-4400 as many times as you want!!

sammiec
October 15th, 2004, 03:42 PM
You can do that?!?! OKay, I'm on it!

chico2
October 15th, 2004, 03:44 PM
Pitbulliest,I am so sorry,I can understand why you are crying,it's so unfair.
I doubt they will change their mind,,but boy,do I sympathize with every good pit-bull owner. :sick:

mastifflover
October 15th, 2004, 03:46 PM
You can I just voted no 15 times

sammiec
October 15th, 2004, 03:50 PM
I'm still voting ;)

sammiec
October 15th, 2004, 03:51 PM
Call Call Call!!! :D

pitbulliest
October 16th, 2004, 12:03 AM
Chico..I'm hoping that they will..we can still affect the MPs in government..forget Bryant now...but we gotta keep trying sad

LavenderRott
October 16th, 2004, 07:38 AM
Remember, fill these letters with facts. Lots and Lots of facts. Make sure you can back them up. If you need to verify them or have a question, ask it. I am sure that we can come up with the reference you need.

pitbulliest
October 16th, 2004, 10:37 AM
I have already finished writing my letter..its a draft right now..because I still need people to look it over and tell me what else I can add or take away..its posted in a thread here..I'm not sure if you saw it...do you think I need to change or add anything?

I want the letter out to the MPs by Monday.

Oh..and what do you write on the bottom of the same letter is going out to more than one person?

Thanx guys

Babs
October 17th, 2004, 05:26 PM
I am very discouraged right now. I wrote Bryant at least 10 of the what... 5000 letters he said he recieved on this issue?

Yet nothing will stop him. The facts he spews are nonsense. I have done my own investigative research of Kitchener (where I live), and I even went so far as to contact Health officials in Ottawa looking for "dog bite reporting" and subsequent statistics.

I would very much like to know where Bryant is getting his statistical information on dog bite reports which are breed-specific, because Kitchener-Waterloo definately doesn't have them... nor do they have them on a Provincial or National scale! Am I to assume that officials have been hiding this evidence from the public? I am not sure what purpose that would serve?

Today, right now, my dog which has previously been called a "Pit Bull", is now a boxer cross. I dare any "official" to even try to prove it otherwise, because she is a mutt with absolutely no knowledge of parental history. She was found by the Ottawa Humane Society on the side of Highway 16 at 4 months, and we adopted her 2 months later. They listed here as a "Pit Bull Cross", but I now know after months of research on this issue that she could be... but she also could not be. She could be anything... but Bryant's Bill would have her ID'd as a restricted dog subject to some insane paranoia-infested Holocaust. There is no test, DNA or otherwise, that can prove what breed of dog she is. I dare say this is the case for most Pits out there as well.

What concerns me most about this looming "Bill" is the fact that it infringes upon my Canadian Constitutional Rights. The fact that any paranoid stranger walking by my house who sees my dog in the window, and believes she is a Pit Bull (a question I am asked at least half a dozen times a week), can call the local Police who will now have authority to enter and search my home to take my dog.

Welcome to the Witch Hunt. Do we now have to find a new province in which to live? What's next? I'm sorry, but I will not turn my dog in. She's my family.

I believe this issue needs to be taken to the National Level. I also believe Michael Bryant needs to be forced out of power. I am sorry to be a Canadian right now, and even sorrier I voted Liberal.

Dukieboy
October 18th, 2004, 11:30 AM
I sent this to all MPPs

Dear Member of Provincial Parliament,

I am writing to tell you that I find Mr Bryants behavior and recent actions thoughtless and rash. I can tell that his remarks are coming from a position of fear rather than contemplation and knowledge.


I have a nine month old pit bull. He is my pet. He is not dog or human aggressive. I am his protector he is not mine. What I can tell you about these dogs is that they require a lot of exercise. I mean a lot of exercise and not just a leisurely walk on the leash. My backyard is tiny. If I can't take him out to the Off Leash he won't get the exercise he needs. It isn't fair that other dogs can be raised happy and healthy and not mine. This proposed legislation is proposed cruelty to animals. What is the point of letting people keep their pitbulls if they will not be able to care for them properly? Why isn't Michael Bryant listening to the experts on this issue? I urge you to listen to the folks who have knowledge in this area. I think if Michael Bryant had to euthanize all these dogs personally or care for one, his position would quickly change.

Finally, my dog doesn't need a muzzle. He looks ridiculous with one on. Again, this is outrageously cruel. People laugh because he is such a gentle little animal. He has never bitten anyone or another dog despite being snapped at on a number of occasions.

Please consider the facts and the opinions of experts when you vote on this proposed legislation. There is absolutely nothing creative about the solution Michael Bryant has proposed.

M******* ********
Toronto, ON
M5A 3B4
(416)***-****

There are currently over 3,000 signatures on the attached petition against Breed Specific Legislation. There are a lot of families that will be affected by this proposed legislation.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?newban2

Luvmypit
October 18th, 2004, 12:02 PM
I think that letter sounds great. I just emailed about half of the MPs my view on Bryant and this government. Now if you look at what the media is saying there on our side now. I haven't read one negative story on them but have read editorials against it. Either they just want to stir the pot or some have come to there senses. I really think we have a chance if we don't give up

sammiec
October 18th, 2004, 12:06 PM
That's a great letter, for the future though it's a good idea to add information about why this ban will not work - factual information. A couple of good sites to get that kind of information are:

Good Pooch (http://www.goodpooch.com/BSL/cdnbsl.htm)
Dog Watch (http://www.dogwatch.net/index.html)

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 12:09 PM
THe muzzle looks ridiculous? Well, he would only need to wear it if off leash - this is only fair. There are aggressive pitbulls running around in my neighbourhood - you could surely sacrifice the looks of your dog for the safety of others and the future of your breed as whole, wouldn't you?

Luvmypit
October 18th, 2004, 12:10 PM
How many of us have to feel like criminals because the government says we are? People stop there cars to look at my dog, they cross the street, give me bad looks. Yet I have never been in jail and the worse law I ever broke was a speeding and the fatc that I tried pot (hey who hasnt?). Oh and now own a pit bull.... Slap on the cuffs. I had a a huge party for my Bday saturday night. For the first couple hours people where standing looking over the baby gate that holds my pit bull capone in. They where standing there gawking at him wondering about his ablilities to attack. Once the half or so left I let him out. Let me tell you he was so good. I convinced alot of people that they aren't that bad. I had people who were scared of dogs in general getting down on the floor with him. I credit his good behaviour to the fact that he was a little scared but when hes scared hes even more docile. He just sat between people legs giving them his pathetic love me look.

sammiec
October 18th, 2004, 12:14 PM
THe muzzle looks ridiculous? Well, he would only need to wear it if off leash - this is only fair. There are aggressive pitbulls running around in my neighbourhood - you could surely sacrifice the looks of your dog for the safety of others and the future of your breed as whole, wouldn't you?

Pit bulls would have to wear a muzzle as soon as they step onto public property. They will never be allowed off leash.
It's not a fashion statement that's a concern. It's the fact that it's viewed as inhumane to have a dog wear a muzzle all the time. I personally feel that it's not required. There are some aggressive pit bulls running around your neighbourhood?? I would call animal control about stray dogs that are running around your neighbourhood. What have these dogs done for you to assume that they are agressive?

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 12:18 PM
The "aggressive pitulls" I was referring to are not strays - they have ****ty owners. And what makes me think they are not friendly - they have shown aggression towards my dog.

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 12:22 PM
I am sorry if I owned a non-aggressive pit bull I would not muzzle it regardless of the law. Fine ticket me everyday I will go to court and tie it up for so long in the system that like photo radar it will be abolished. When real criminals are let out because they were not given a speedy trial blame it on the discrimination the government has decided to place on the owners of pit bulls and other "bull breeds". If my dog did anything to warrant a muzzle I would not have a problem putting it on him. But until that time came no way
The "aggressive pitulls" I was referring to are not strays - they have ****ty owners. And what makes me think they are not friendly - they have shown aggression towards my dog.
So you are blaming all owners because of irresponsible ones. That is really fair

sammiec
October 18th, 2004, 12:24 PM
I was merely inquiring about why you thought these dogs are aggressive. There's no need to swear.

Pit bulls are dogs that were bred to be aggressive towards other dogs. Some pit bulls that are not properly socialized tend to be more aggressive. It's something that can be managed and maintined with proper ownership. If these dogs are loose in the neighbourhood I would discuss this with Animal Control.
This again sounds like a human error... the owners are poopy... therefore you assume that muzzles are the required necessity. I personally feel that muzzles are an escape for lazy owners not to train and socialize their pets. It's only a temporary fix and if these owners are crappy, are you sure that they will comply with these regulations?

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 12:40 PM
I share the view that pitbull associated problems stem from irresponsible ownership. Many pitbull owners do not understand the breed, some among those posting on this board. I am very familiar with the pitbul personality and have discussed this issue with responsible owners and trainers. All agree that this is a lovely animal, but if your idea of fun is hanging at the dog park this dog is not for you. The pitbull is not a dog that should be running around small animals or other dogs its not familiar with. Those who understand and respect this fact are responsible owners. The same could be said for English bullterriers who should not be left unattended with other dogs/cats as the situation may get out of hand.
I think that people who are determined to present the pitbull personality as something it is not are partially responsible for a lot of myths and legends flying out there.

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Personally I would rather have my dog around responsible pit bulls and there owners opposed to small dogs who create half the problems and walk away with the other dogs being blamed. I see it all the time maybe JRT should be banned I have seen these dogs attack other dogs more than any other breed. But that would be about the owner so because they are small that is there defense. Sorry I don't buy the double standard. My dog gets bit, growled at, teased by these small dogs and does nothing to retaliate and the owners think it is funny that the small dog is going after the big dog well it is not and if my dog retaliated I and my dog would be blamed.
By the way any dog should not be left alone with children period end of sentence no way

sammiec
October 18th, 2004, 12:50 PM
I am not sure if you are trying to quietly state that you feel I am an irresponsible owner and that I trying to convince people into believing that these dogs are not dangerous. That's foolish, because everyone should know that ALL dogs can be dangerous, just like humans.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable about this breed I am surprised about the blatant comments. All dogs are aggressive, thay may not show it all the time but a shiztzu can snap just like a pit bull. They can turn and cause a lot of damage to a child or another animal. Dogs are dogs and should be treated as such. I don't feel putting a band aid on this issue by banning one breed will solve the big issue - which is irresponsbile ownership.

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 12:51 PM
mastiff over's comment supports my original point - some people just lack understanding - and this is why animals suffer. They are put in situations they should not be in, and consequiently pay the price.

Dukieboy
October 18th, 2004, 12:53 PM
THe muzzle looks ridiculous? Well, he would only need to wear it if off leash - this is only fair. There are aggressive pitbulls running around in my neighbourhood - you could surely sacrifice the looks of your dog for the safety of others and the future of your breed as whole, wouldn't you?

You've missed my point. My dog should not have to wear a muzzle as he has shown no signs of agression. Other breeds are not required therefore it is unjust to require he wear one until he demonstrates a need for one. Further, your point about only being required to wear it at the off leash is mistaken. If the legislation is past he will not be allowed at the off leash.

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 12:54 PM
So every breed should be banned because there are bad owners of every breed. And while we are doing this lets ban children so that no more are abused, kidnapped, sexually abused, by neighbours or irresponsible parents. You are being ridiculous by grouping every owner in the same group by banning a breed

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 01:00 PM
ML, you are very good at missing the point. I'll leave it at that.

Dukieboy
October 18th, 2004, 01:02 PM
I share the view that pitbull associated problems stem from irresponsible ownership. Many pitbull owners do not understand the breed, some among those posting on this board. I am very familiar with the pitbul personality and have discussed this issue with responsible owners and trainers. All agree that this is a lovely animal, but if your idea of fun is hanging at the dog park this dog is not for you. The pitbull is not a dog that should be running around small animals or other dogs its not familiar with. Those who understand and respect this fact are responsible owners. The same could be said for English bullterriers who should not be left unattended with other dogs/cats as the situation may get out of hand.
I think that people who are determined to present the pitbull personality as something it is not are partially responsible for a lot of myths and legends flying out there.


Pitbulls require socialization. Off Leash parks are not where you leave your dog unattended. Your dog must be under the verbal control of a handler and if he/she is not then I agree, they shouldn't be at the off leash. If your dog shows signs of dog agression then again I agree, shouldn't be at the off leash. My dog is a neutered male, 9 months old showing NO signs of dog agression. He is never left unattended at the Off Leash.

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 01:06 PM
You think it is only pit bulls that is my point it is not only pit bulls. Evey dog needs training and people need to pay attention but they don't. If it was your breed of dog I am sure you would feel much differently. You also do not have your facts straight these muzzles must be worn as soon as they leave their property. So would you want to muzzle your dog for no reason.

Required_Fields
October 18th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Some pitbulls start showing aggression towards other animals after the age of 3. Would you give up your dog if he stopped being friendly towards other dogs in a few years. I wouldn't, I would muzzle him when at the park, run with him, play frisbee and ball, and take him to areas where other dogs are unlikely to hang around. Why is it so important for some pitbull owners to act as if it's necessary for their dog to play with other dogs. Pitbulls can be socialized without being forced to play in packs at the neighbourhood dog park. I mean, c'mon - if you love a breed, you should be accepting of it as a whole.

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 01:31 PM
I think your dog would have a hard time playing ball or frisbee with a muzzle on. This is part of the point why do they need muzzles if they have done nothing

Dukieboy
October 18th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Some pitbulls start showing aggression towards other animals after the age of 3. Would you give up your dog if he stopped being friendly towards other dogs in a few years. I wouldn't, I would muzzle him when at the park, run with him, play frisbee and ball, and take him to areas where other dogs are unlikely to hang around. Why is it so important for some pitbull owners to act as if it's necessary for their dog to play with other dogs. Pitbulls can be socialized without being forced to play in packs at the neighbourhood dog park. I mean, c'mon - if you love a breed, you should be accepting of it as a whole.

No, if my dog started to show agression towards other dogs we would find other places to play. But right now, legislation is looming that quite frankly is cruel to one specific breed. If my dog needs a muzzle he'll get one but he doesn't need one right now. The legislation ignores this. If this legislation is passed, the only place I could play frisbee with my dog is in my yard which is about 6' x 9'. Some folks don't have a yard. THE LEGISLATION WILL REQUIRE THE DOG BE LEASHED WHEN NOT ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Luvmypit
October 18th, 2004, 02:52 PM
Pit Bulls don't have to play with other dogs. That is not what is being said. Its more that we want the choice to if we feel are dog is safe. Some pit bulls love other dogs. Some have grown up with cats and hamsters and birds. Yes they are dog aggressive BUT can be socialized early in life and be perfectly fine with other dogs. The new law would require us to muzzle are dogs as soon as they leave are property we would not be able to go to ANY public parks. How is that going to keep are dogs sane. No more frisbee, ball.... On top of it they have to wear an intrusive muzzle that can only make them feel even more insecure when approching any life form. That is my main concern. Its just like they say you shouldn't ever chain up any dog constantly, it makes them insecure and standoffish. Muzzles will do the same thing. I will muzzle my dog for the sake that I can't afford a fine but I understand why some may not want to. why should we? The whole point of being against the ban is because its prejudice to our breed of dog so why should our dog wear a muzzle when the golden retriver who just took a chunk out the neighbours leg is running muzzle free.

Dukieboy
October 18th, 2004, 03:05 PM
Exactly! :thumbs up

PitBullPride
October 18th, 2004, 04:19 PM
Here are some email addresses that you can use:

dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
jmossop.mpp@liberal.ola.org
hhampton-qp@ndp.on.ca
joe_tascona@ontla.ola.org
%20pm@pm.gc.ca

In Windsor there is a group forming called "Advocates for the Underdog" (www.advocatesfortheunderdog), that is attempting to sue the City of Windsor. They also have been having fund-raisers and rallies for our cause. They are hoping to gain nationwide membership.

Also good websites to check out are www.badrap.org for people and dog "wear" that supports the Pit Bull breed. This website is for a Pit rescue group in the San Franscisco Bay area and they are very aware of our situation in Ontario.

Also check out: http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org for a petition to print off to send to the provincial government.

Together we can fight this!

mastifflover
October 18th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Pitbullpride I have emailed all these people and CityTV MediaTV BT since these are the people who actually might air this stuff they love the underdog.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 08:12 AM
Pitbulls require socialization. Off Leash parks are not where you leave your dog unattended. Your dog must be under the verbal control of a handler and if he/she is not then I agree, they shouldn't be at the off leash. If your dog shows signs of dog agression then again I agree, shouldn't be at the off leash. My dog is a neutered male, 9 months old showing NO signs of dog agression. He is never left unattended at the Off Leash.

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement.

Off leash parks are where you leave your dog unattended... if you're more than 1 foot from your dog, it's unattended! Off leash parks are an accident waiting to happen for ANY breed. A fight can occur and get out of control in a matter of seconds! This needs to be understood! Dogs can be very unpredicatble! I don't care if it's a pit bull, a bichon frise or a jack russel, dog parks are not safe.... I have seen a jack russel start play bowing with a golden retreiver, the golden wasn't interested and it turned out nasty! The owners were sitting at a picnic table no more than 5 feet from their dogs.

Verbal command will NOT break up a fight!! You're very misinformed if you believe that! ANY BREED of dog can never show signs of aggression and then attack under ANY circumstances!

Just because your dog is netured and showing no signs of aggression right now, do you know the signs of aggression for the future, and will you be able to stop it before it starts? Nope, I doubt it. I'm not saying this to be rude or argumentative. This breed is suffering a severe blow right now and taking your dog to the off leash park is a big no-no.

There needs to be regulation and control placed on the owners of dogs! Plain and simple. ALL dogs need to be trained and socialized properly or they ALL are a "loaded gun".

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 08:25 AM
This is a good read. I will sent a copy to Bryant and the MPPs
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1098094028731&call_pageid=968256290204&col=Columnist969907626796

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 08:33 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement.

Off leash parks are where you leave your dog unattended... if you're more than 1 foot from your dog, it's unattended! Off leash parks are an accident waiting to happen for ANY breed. A fight can occur and get out of control in a matter of seconds! This needs to be understood! Dogs can be very unpredicatble! I don't care if it's a pit bull, a bichon frise or a jack russel, dog parks are not safe.... I have seen a jack russel start play bowing with a golden retreiver, the golden wasn't interested and it turned out nasty! The owners were sitting at a picnic table no more than 5 feet from their dogs.

Verbal command will NOT break up a fight!! You're very misinformed if you believe that! ANY BREED of dog can never show signs of aggression and then attack under ANY circumstances!

Just because your dog is netured and showing no signs of aggression right now, do you know the signs of aggression for the future, and will you be able to stop it before it starts? Nope, I doubt it. I'm not saying this to be rude or argumentative. This breed is suffering a severe blow right now and taking your dog to the off leash park is a big no-no.

There needs to be regulation and control placed on the owners of dogs! Plain and simple. ALL dogs need to be trained and socialized properly or they ALL are a "loaded gun".

There is no way my dog is going to sit in the house or yard for the rest of his life. He loves dogs and until I feel that I cannot control him he will be playin in the park. I am really getting tired of having to justify how I am raising my dog. Trained and socialized means learning to interact with other dogs and people. Right now its on and off leash. I never sit down at the off leash. I go there for him to play with other dogs under a very watchfull eye. I well aware that things can happen and quite quickly. Like I could leave my house one morning and get hit by bus. I am glad I don't worry about that every morning.

mastifflover
October 19th, 2004, 08:49 AM
Dukieboy and Sammie you both make valid points and I have to say if I owned a Pit she/he would not be wearing a muzzle and would be still going to the park. I do not feel that if a dog is well trained and not aggressive they should not be penalized because of there breed. Everyday now there are dogs being dumped at the Humane Society and shelters because the owners don't want to deal with this bullsh*** law which is not in effect yet and if Michael Bryant and his cronies keep getting called on the way they went about passing this soon to be law, it might not get passed that quickly. They lied and did not gather any information that did not support a ban so why should we abide by something with no backbone. It is not based on fact it was put in place because of the media frenzy they instigated.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 08:56 AM
There is no way my dog is going to sit in the house or yard for the rest of his life. He loves dogs and until I feel that I cannot control him he will be playin in the park. I am really getting tired of having to justify how I am raising my dog. Trained and socialized means learning to interact with other dogs and people. Right now its on and off leash. I never sit down at the off leash. I go there for him to play with other dogs under a very watchfull eye. I well aware that things can happen and quite quickly. Like I could leave my house one morning and get hit by bus. I am glad I don't worry about that every morning.

Well that's excellent for you Dukieboy! I too don't worry about getting hit by a bus when I leave the house... I on the other hand feel that I have a life that I have to care for, that's not my own. What you're doing is playing chicken in front of that bus WITH YOUR DOGS LIFE!!! What do you honestly think will happen WHEN your dog gets into a fight at that park!? Do you think that people will shurg it off and say "oh they're just dogs?" Nope, don't think so - I bet you and your dog will be on the front page and you will be hounded with pressure from both the public and the government to have that dog put down. It's another nail in the coffin for us responsible owners to lose this ridiculous fight for our dogs.
Granted your dog might not be the one to start the fight, but what if another dog instigated one? Do you think your dog will stand down. I bet you not! And then - do you think the police will believe that your pit bull was DEFENDING itself? Doubt that too.

I play with my pit bull off leash, but not around other dogs that we don't know, not anymore. I don't know if you've read other threads, but I too went to off leash parks, I've been on both sides.

There are plenty of things that you can do with your dog that doesn't involve strange dogs in an uncontrolled environment. I play at a fenced in school yard AT NIGHT, we play fetch, and she chases sticks and her best friend, a Lab comes along too. It's a controlled environment where I know that she is safe and no other dog (that might be aggressive) will start a fight with her.

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 09:17 AM
I hear ya but... Duke hasn't met his best doggie friend yet. Who knows, maybe next time at the off leash. ;)

We will have to agree to disagree at this point.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 09:19 AM
I hear ya but... Duke hasn't met his best doggie friend yet. Who knows, maybe next time at the off leash. ;)

We didn't have to go to the off leash to meet people Dukieboy. You don't even need to have a friend to go play fetch.

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 09:20 AM
We will have to agree to disagree at this point.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 09:34 AM
I guess so, eh? And I guess it's also fair to say that the pro ban people and responsible owners can agree to disagree as well. And they can walk all over us and show everyone else why these dogs shouldn't be in a "civilized" city. You're helping their cause. Thank you.

Dragonfly
October 19th, 2004, 09:42 AM
I certainly hope that this is not going to turn into one of those name calling threads that has to be locked.

If I am not mistaken, this thread is about BSL, not dog parks.

Can we please stay on topic.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Sorry Dragonfly, we'll stay on topic. IMHO, Dog Parks are a VERY important part of BSL. They are a very hot item right now and are causing more conflicts in our fight against BSL. We can save that for another thread.

Dragonfly
October 19th, 2004, 09:50 AM
Thank you!

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 10:15 AM
I guess its time to email the mayor again, he says he pleased with how quickly the province has acted.

mayor_miller@toronto.ca

I have emailed the torstar editorial to him and all the councillors.

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Mayor and City Councillors emails are posted in the Reply From MP's thread.

Required_Fields
October 19th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Obviously some pitbull owners need to understand that "socailizing" doesn't always mean dumping it at a park to run around with a bunch of other dogs.
Dogs should not be made feel like they need to protect themselves, and socialisation also means walking without pulling everytime a dog passes another dog on the street, ignoring the small fluffy thing that may charge towards them when crossing a street etc.
I think that this is relevant to the discussion, especially when it comes to pitbulls, because people feel that a dog needs to "play with other dogs" to be acceptable. This is not true.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 11:15 AM
Obviously some pitbull owners need to understand that "socailizing" doesn't always mean dumping it at a park to run around with a bunch of other dogs.
That discussion has ended by request of the moderator. Please stop.

Dogs should not be made feel like they need to protect themselves,
enforcing a muzzle by law WILL make dogs feel that they need to protect themselves... there is a muzzle on their face, preventing them from being able to defencd themselves..

and socialisation also means walking without pulling everytime a dog passes another dog on the street, ignoring the small fluffy thing that may charge towards them when crossing a street etc.
Shouldn't the small fluffy thing be under control and not charging towards the other dog?!?!?

I think that this is relevant to the discussion, especially when it comes to pitbulls, because people feel that a dog needs to "play with other dogs" to be acceptable. This is not true.

It's difficult to discuss this with people are contradicting everything that they write....it's pretty ignorant to assume that it's alright for your dog to do the same things that you're beating up on pit bulls for, don't you think?

I would love to presue this discussion, but please come with some information that is not so biased...

Required_Fields
October 19th, 2004, 11:19 AM
I am not beating up on pitbulls, but irresponsible owners.
And no, when I walk my dog I am responsible for him, not the small fluffy thing. So I teach him to avoid small frantic dogs that charge towards us on a daily basis. I am responsible for my dog and I hope others assume responsibility for theirs.
Everything I have said in my posts has referred to irresponsible owners and never to the generic idea of "pitbulls as a whole". This may seem contradictory because people are not used to thinking this way.

Lucky Rescue
October 19th, 2004, 11:26 AM
There is no way my dog is going to sit in the house or yard for the rest of his life. He loves dogs and until I feel that I cannot control him he will be playin in the park.

Dukieboy, you are protesting BSL, yet what you are doing is playing right into the hands of BSL proponents.

My dog does not "sit in the house or yard". I take her all kinds of places to walk and play. The choice is not between off leash parks or total confinement. There are lots of other options.

What are you going to do if the day you feel you "cannot control him" is the day that he kills another dog in the blink of an eye? Can you please answer this?

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Dragonfly asked us to keep on topic, we're not talking about Dog Parks anymore!

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 11:48 AM
Dukieboy, you are protesting BSL, yet what you are doing is playing right into the hands of BSL proponents.
I disagree. I think I am trying to raise my dog the way I think he should be raised.

My dog does not "sit in the house or yard". I take her all kinds of places to walk and play. The choice is not between off leash parks or total confinement. There are lots of other options.
I am aware of that, as I indicated in early messages if my dog becomes agressive I will act accordingly. The point was trying to make was that BSL as it is proposed will curb my ability to choose amoung options.

What are you going to do if the day you feel you "cannot control him" is the day that he kills another dog in the blink of an eye? Can you please answer this?
The answer to this is that that is highly unlikely. You sound like you think they are all as dangerous as Michael Bryant is claiming.

"This point is supported by some other statistics that Bryant apparently didn't consider, these ones from the City of Toronto.

In the first eight months of 2004, the city recorded 669 dog bite incidents. Of these, 91 (14 per cent) were attributable to pit bulls. However, there are 2,905 pit bulls registered with the city and an unknown number that are not registered.

Bottom line: At a minimum, about 97 per cent of Toronto pit bulls cause no one — neither human nor beast — any problem."- Thomas Wolkam, Toronto Star

Finally, again, sometimes you have to agree to disagree

mastifflover
October 19th, 2004, 12:03 PM
I don't think anybody here feels that there dogs are dangerous but the way the climate in this city is right now towards pits why invite trouble. But we all know they are dog aggressive so avoid the situation dont give idiots like Michael ammunition in his one sided war against these dogs. We need to make him look like an uninformed idiot who did not get all the facts which is exactly what he did. You need to make sure you can back up everything with facts. Because eventually someone in the media is going to print the whole story about what went on and how he did not get facts or read emails from the opposition to the ban. That might be what will take this law back to the table to amend so that it is feasable to enforce. Right now they will never be able to enforce it they dont have the manpower. We need to bring up the fact that for the last couple of years there have been bills that have been tabled regarding animal cruelty and abuse. If they would have acted on these unpassed laws to protect the animals when they were read in the government we might not have this problem now. But I think part of the excuse was no money. This is how the gov. passes the buck for not taking responsibility for their lack of action and now look what has happened. But of course they have now found the money to hire enforcement officers to fine people but isn't that too little too late for the real problem. Irresponsible owners are not the ones it will affect.

Lucky Rescue
October 19th, 2004, 01:51 PM
The answer to this is that that is highly unlikely. You sound like you think they are all as dangerous as Michael Bryant is claiming.

"Highly unlikely." Oh, boy.:( Everyone whose pit bull has attacked another dog said exactly the same thing. You still haven't answered how you would stop a fight in the dog park if your dog grabs and holds another dog while everyone is screaming hysterically.

And as a pit bull owner myself, who is horrified and depressed by all the BSL and hysteria, of course I don't think they are dangerous. But I educated myself and keep my dog safe. I wish you would do the same. Your attitude and lack of understanding of this breed is what is dangerous.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Thankyou for that post LR. I too have the same feelings as you! :(

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 02:11 PM
"Highly unlikely." Oh, boy.:( Everyone whose pit bull has attacked another dog said exactly the same thing. You still haven't answered how you would stop a fight in the dog park if your dog grabs and holds another dog while everyone is screaming hysterically.

And as a pit bull owner myself, who is horrified and depressed by all the BSL and hysteria, of course I don't think they are dangerous. But I educated myself and keep my dog safe. I wish you would do the same. Your attitude and lack of understanding of this breed is what is dangerous.

I think you attitude is what is dangerous. Just one opinion...

We already know that responsible dog owners actively maintain well-socialized dogs, meaning they give their dogs socialization experiences on a regular basis. So, there is no concern about responsibly owned dogs being too assertive or frightened when around other dogs. A well-socialized dog knows how to interact with dogs of all temperaments. If another dog is too rough, they know to extricate themselves. If another dog is submissive, they know to play more gently. Really responsible dog owners are aware that they must take an active role in ensuring their dogs meet others of all temperament types. It just won’’t do, only allowing one’’s dog to play with dogs one knows well. Dogs need to learn dog language from other dogs, not humans. That means meeting strange dogs on a regular basis.
- From GoodPooch.com

Finally, I don't have to wait, I got a fine dose of hysteria on this board today.

sammiec
October 19th, 2004, 02:11 PM
You keep reiterating this... where's the link??
I think you attitude is what is dangerous. Just one opinion...

We already know that responsible dog owners actively maintain well-socialized dogs, meaning they give their dogs socialization experiences on a regular basis. So, there is no concern about responsibly owned dogs being too assertive or frightened when around other dogs. A well-socialized dog knows how to interact with dogs of all temperaments. If another dog is too rough, they know to extricate themselves. If another dog is submissive, they know to play more gently. Really responsible dog owners are aware that they must take an active role in ensuring their dogs meet others of all temperament types. It just won’’t do, only allowing one’’s dog to play with dogs one knows well. Dogs need to learn dog language from other dogs, not humans. That means meeting strange dogs on a regular basis.
- From GoodPooch.com

Dukieboy
October 19th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Here is the link

You keep reiterating this... where's the link??
http://www.goodpooch.com/ISSUES/etiquette.htm

carey
October 19th, 2004, 09:35 PM
The is the position of the Ottawa Humane Society:

The Ottawa Humane Society is urging animal owners and supporters to register their objection to proposed Ontario legislation banning Pit Bull Terriers across the province. The legislation, which has not yet been drafted, will reportedly grandfather existing Pit Bull Terriers but prevent anyone from acquiring one of these dogs going forward. The OHS believes the legislation is a poorly thought-out, simplistic attempt to address a complex issue.

The OHS believes that a more effective solution to the dangerous dog issue would involve strict enforcement of mandatory licensing and confinement laws and heavy fines for owners whose dogs have previously bitten. Additionally, requiring a dog to pass a temperament test as a prerequisite to obtaining a license would prevent anyone in Ottawa from legally owning a dangerous dog. Further, significant incentives for owners to spay/neuter their dogs, and to socialize or train them, coupled with enhanced public awareness and education programs around responsible pet ownership, would help decrease the potential for dogs to become dangerous in the first place.

The practical side of implementing such a ban, in itself, would be nightmarish. The City of Ottawa also does not know how it could enforce such a ban. Even its current animal control bylaws are inconsistently enforced.

It is significant that aside from the specific breed ban legislation that's being proposed, the Ontario government, along with all other levels of government, has shown little interest in the issue of responsible animal ownership in the past. Bill C-22, a major piece of proposed animal anti-cruelty legislation, has been sitting in Parliament for years, despite the demonstrated support of hundreds of thousands of Canadians. If the provincial government is committed to the issue of responsible pet ownership, then it should be working with major stakeholders, including humane societies, to work on real solutions to the issues.

The OHS urges concerned animal owners and supporters to contact their MPP, the Provincial Premier and Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant, who introduced the legislation, to register their objection to this ill-thought out piece of legislation. The OHS website will be updated regularly as this issue unfolds.

Register your objection today:

Dalton McGuinty, Premier
Legislative Building
Queen's Park
Toronto ON M7A 1A1
Fax: 416-325-3745
Dalton.mcguinty@premier.gov.on.ca

Michael Bryant
Attorney General for Ontario
720 Bay Street, 11th Floor
Toronto ON M5G 2K1
Fax: 416-326-4007
attorneygeneral@jus.gov.on.ca

Related Links:
Find the Pit Bull Terrier...to play the game, go to: http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html
Members of Provincial Parliament: http://olaap.ontla.on.ca/laompp/daIndex.do?locale=en

Lucky Rescue
October 19th, 2004, 10:02 PM
If another dog is too rough, they know to extricate themselves. If another dog is submissive, they know to play more gently.

Pit bulls will NOT extricate themselves. Pit bulls will not quit, even if the other dog is submissive. They were bred NOT to quit, NOT to extricate themselves.
You really should know this, and if you don't listen you WILL find out the hard way and more damage will be done.

Here is a link that will explain these things to you. It's an excellent site, with much information.
The Real Pit Bull (http://www.realpitbull.com/)

sammiec
October 20th, 2004, 07:46 AM
I heard on the radit this morning Mr. Bryant has been confronted with questions about what to do with the animals that are surrendered to the shelters... his answer was... he's not sure!!! WTF!?!?! People have to understand that this BAN WAS NOT THOUGHT OUT!!! It's all on a rush of emotions and there are NO facts presented to say that this ban IS a good idea! He hasn't even thought about what to do with the dogs surrendered! He CANNOT get away with this!!! :mad:

Dukieboy
October 20th, 2004, 08:41 AM
Pit bulls will NOT extricate themselves. Pit bulls will not quit, even if the other dog is submissive. They were bred NOT to quit, NOT to extricate themselves.
You really should know this, and if you don't listen you WILL find out the hard way and more damage will be done.

Here is a link that will explain these things to you. It's an excellent site, with much information.
The Real Pit Bull (http://www.realpitbull.com/)

Hmmm, now where did I read "The only thing most pitbulls fight is a sad stereotype" -CBBR ???

I have nothing further to add to this discussion. We all have our own experience with the breed and our dogs. My take is my take, yours is yours. Probably for different reasons.

sammiec
October 20th, 2004, 08:47 AM
Hmmm, now where did I read "The only thing most pitbulls fight is a sad stereotype" -CBBR ???

That's MY siggy, not hers! But I don't think you get it.
The sterotype is kept alive because of people that think their dog is different and their dog would never do that!
Responsible owners realize the limits of their animals and do what they can to maintain order and manage their dog. Irresponsible owners "know" that their dog is different and that it will never be aggressive.

ADDED:This breed is not for everyone. They require a knowledgable owner that realizes they MUST do everything in their power to prevent others from seeing the "negative" side. Granted that ALL dogs will fight and some will lose, but today the focus is on pit bulls. Today they will see ANY fight involving a pit bull as another reason to banish them. Stereotyping of this dog will never dog away... we as responsible owners need to prevent ANY way for people to see these dogs as violent and hurtful creatures.

Dukieboy
October 20th, 2004, 09:21 AM
There is a common element on this board that if someone disagrees with someone elses position they are an "irresponsible owner" Unfortunate tact.

http://www.goodpooch.com/quiz1.htm

sammiec
October 20th, 2004, 10:47 AM
CP24 (http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041019-014/page.asp) reports that M.Bryant admits he doesn't know what to do with the Pit Bulls in shelters... :eek:

Dukieboy
October 20th, 2004, 11:01 AM
I read the story (cp24) he doesn't seem to be backing down and is hanging his hat on an invisible "majority". Where is this majority?

sammiec
October 21st, 2004, 07:49 AM
LOL - we had another thread made called "Dog Parks and BSL" Dragonfly asked us to keep on target with this thread... :)

Dukieboy
October 21st, 2004, 08:12 AM
I'm not sure who's arguing about what....but I know it has to do with dog parks..just because of some of the sentences I whizzed by..

If you are a person that take your pit bull terrier to a dog park..you are definately not doing any of us a favor. One day, your dog will get into a fight..and I will pay..my dog will pay..and everyone else that has a pit bull will pay..because every negative incident that this breed is involved in, only adds to the stereotypical negative image of this breed. Please keep your dog out of trouble. There is absolutely no need for offleash dog parks...don't give me socialization as an excuse. My dog doesn't go to dog parks..yet she is well socialized...she likes people..and she'll wag her tail when she sees other dogs..even lick them occassionally when I approach ON LEASH..however, my dog IS ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE...and even if your dog doesn't show it yet..it might come up when you least expect it.

http://www.goodpooch.com
This is the reason why these dogs are being banned in the first place..because of irresponsible ownership..and if you take your pit bull to an offleash dog park, you are being an irresponsible owner..End of story... period.. dot...finished!


I am sorry your dog is animal aggressive. I am glad you are managing the aggression. But...mine is not. So, I'll raise and care for mine and you raise and care for yours. Now that's the end of the story

http://www.goodpooch.com

kigaro
October 21st, 2004, 09:42 AM
ahhh...dogparks.

i own an amstaff (i've had staffybulls and amstaffs since childhood) who is very obedient and very friendly with both other dogs and humans. i took her to dog parks as a pup for socializing, and any time she showed the slightest bit of dog aggression, i corrected it (it paid off in dividends). however, once she reached 1yr i started to stay away from dog parks, and it's not my dog that i was worried about. it's all the other untrained dogs who don't go to their owner when called, and get aggressive (I find small dogs to be the worst). i prefer to stay in the wooded more secluded areas (it's more peaceful, and gives me an opportunity to relax as well). i do run into some small annoying dogs still sometimes and they can nip at her, bark at her, and charge. she just turns and goes the other way. she loves playing with labs (any medium size dog that's willing to chase her really) though when we run into them on trails, but for the most part she just likes to explore.

my dog was attacked by a malamute (this wasn't in a dog park, but while hiking in northern ontario), luckily, neither dog was injured much (the malamute was exerting his dominance, and my dog snapped back a few times but didn't not acutally bite even though she sustained a small cut to the right side of her chest). infact, i was able to call my dog off (she's very well trained on voice command, and, except for when she was a pup and learing, has always listened) with relative ease while the owner of the malamute had considerable difficulty. the owner was very apologetic, and wasn't sure why his dog attacked. he even commented that he was impressed my dog didn't retaliate with more verocity. i guess all those corrections in aggressive behaviour really did pay off.

however, my dog is an animal, and while i have no fear of her attacking another dog unprovoked, i do fear her being attacked; i don't want to have her ever retaliate cause regardless of which dog attacked first we all know who will get blamed.

so while i certainly would never dictate another 'pit bull' owner to not to go to a dog park, i would only suggest not to. don't think of as your dog being the issue, think of it as all the other dogs being the issue (which in my experience is the crux of the problem). i know several owner's of other breeds whose dogs are very obedient that also stay away from dog parks because of all the untrained dogs running around.

peace,

Dukieboy
October 21st, 2004, 09:55 AM
Thank you for sharing your experience.