Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

I'm Back..puppies leaving mom too early

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 12:58 AM
:confused: Holy did I miss alot of disscussion on my topic about puppies leaving their moms too early..........the reason I did not come back on is because my computer got a virus and I had to delete my whole hard drive.......I lost the bookmark to this forum. Sorry I did not respond to any messages posted. I will try to address all that was mentioned.
I should say that I did NOT start out right by saying know it alls! my bad.
that being said sorry to all who took offence.

#1 My dogs are all health screened prior to breeding.

#2 I am not what I would consider a back yard breeder! Yes I have 3 breeds
I own, however I only breed 1 female Rotti, and 3 poms. The Siberian husky is a rescue and she is not bred, my other 2 rottis are pets.

#3 I have shown my rottis offspring, just not her......she does NOT like the show ring. What I ment on my site about starting to show conformation is my Pom puppies kept back and any new rottis.

#4 Now back to puppies leaving to early.........I have kept in contact (part of my contract) with EVERY person that has one of my pups.
I have NEVER NEVER had an aggressive puppy! My puppies are all socialized with other animals, as many people as I can find and as many different things I can find. I will go into the puppy pen wearing hats, sunglasses, walking sticks, coats, mittens, etc. to get the pups used to all different things.
I have not been breeding for a long time only 5 - 6 years now and I am extreamly proud of all my dogs and their new owners! Granted I still have lots to learn, and can always improve on what I have.

#5 I DO NOT make it a habit to let my puppies go at 6 weeks, as a matter of fact I normally keep them till 8 weeks, but I had one female who was not the best Mom, she jumped out of the pen when the puppies were 4 weeks old, she figured that they had teeth now and she was done. I weaned the pups and did my socialization with them and felt they were ready to go by the middle of the 6th week. I determained that they were all showing independence, and were eating solid foods. I saw a lot of puppies fighting, tring to determain who was boss, the smaller pups were NOT allowed to eat, I had to feed them by themselves, and the bigger more dominant pups were becoming more dominant! So I allowed them to go to their new homes.
I have to say that they showed no signs of anything. I am still in contact with that litter..........they are now almost 2 years old.
That is what I ment by it depends on the mom and the puppies as to the age of the puppies when they leave the breeders home.
I have to say that "most" puppies are NOT ready to go until they are close to 8 weeks. BUT I would NOT say bye-bye to a breeder who let them go at that age, I would ask why they are going at that age!!
I am sure that I have missed some of the comment made by some of you but I did my best..........in a very loooong post.

Take care of you and yours!!!
:) not all breeders are bad....................we help to bring those happy, healthy buddles of fur for you to love.
just so you know................every dog that has ever been produced at my home is "my" baby first!! and will always have a home here if it is not able to be cared for at its new home, and I do check!!

Delirium
October 13th, 2004, 08:01 AM
Once we find homes for all those other furry bundles of love who are currently locked in cages in shelters, then we can talk. In the meantime, we don't need anymore and those who add to the pile are part of the problem.

*throws two pennies on the table*

Dee

heeler's rock!
October 13th, 2004, 08:21 AM
Okay Xtream, I read what you have to say and thanks for appologizing for coming off harsh when you first came on.

The examples I gave in the thread you posted before were from my own experiences as a trainer. I still will not recommend anyone I know to get any puppy from a breeder that lets them go before 8 weeks, whether or not the breeder deems that to be fit. A lot of new mothers leave the pups early, but they come and go as they please. The pups need to eat and she should know that, unless she is too young herself.

I don't know much about breeding, just about socialization. It's great that you try to get the pups used to different things, but it's not always enough.

When you have a litter, do you give the mom free access to her pups to come and go as she pleases? I've known some breeders that do not sell pups until 8 weeks, but they separate the mom and pups at 6 weeks and only let the mom in for feeding time. That is not good and just as bad as letting them leave at 6 weeks. In the wild, the mom comes and goes as she needs to get food and such.

Again, these are all based on my experiences and what I have learned so far. Thanks again for coming on here to clear things up.

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Yes of course I allow the mom to come and go, she wouldn't get back in! I pulled her in by the collar, made her lie down to allow the puppies to nurse.
She was not young either. She was 4 years old, that was her second litter, she did the same with her first. Her first breeding was done when she was 2 1/2, I figured that she behaved that way because she was a new Mom........... I did not breed her again untill she was 4, she pulled the same stunt! Needless to say she has been spayed and is no longer in my breeding program. All I am saying is that sometimes it is done for other reasons.............NOT just because the breeder wants them gone. I am prepared to keep every puppy produced out of a litter! I am very serious about the screening process and 5 people out of 8 won't get a puppy from me. So with those odds I am never in a hurry to "get rid" of any puppies. I will allow them to go ONLY when I KNOW they are ready to!

Take care of you and yours

"A well trained man makes and Dogs best friend!"

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2004, 12:59 PM
Have you had the hips, elbows and hearts checked and certified through OFA?

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 01:07 PM
I do understand that the shelters have their fair share of "pets" in my opinion......a lot of those come from puppy mills and pet shops, but 90% are from unscreened puppy buyers, as I said before all potiential owners are completely screened. So many people give up their pets for utterly stupid reasons.............I feel there are only 2 good resons to have to give up your pet to a shelter..............#1 you are going to jail for a long time. #2 you are dying!
For any other reason, if the pet cannot be returned to the breeder, then you would have time to find it a DECENT LOVING home. Again I will probally get blasted for that but it is the way I feel. I rescue animals, take in strays and always take back any puppy that can not be kept. Not so long ago I was the pesident of a non profit shelter for ferrets.
I thorghly screen new puppy buyers so I can feel confident that my puppy has a LIFELONG home! I have a clause in my contract that says........if at any point in this dogs life you are unable to keep it, or provide proper care, the dog MUST be returned to the breeder. You cannot give, lend, trade, or have the dog reside anywhere other than with the Purchaser.
That is not the clause completely but I am sure you get the drift.
As a breeder I am confident that my puppies are completely socialized prior to leaving my home for theirs.



By the way just a question, to the dog trainer.........are you certified? What method of training do you use?

Thanks for your response.

"A well trained man makes a dogs best friend"

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Have you had the hips, elbows and hearts checked and certified through OFA?

Yes! As mention in my first post all dogs are health screened prior to any breeding.
my Poms are checked yearly for Peteullar luxation, and heart as well.

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2004, 01:17 PM
How did your rottweiler's offspring do in the showring? Are they only shown in conformation or are they shown in obedience or other venues?

Delirium
October 13th, 2004, 01:29 PM
Again, i'll say this.

Until all the animals in shelters have a home, my views will remain conservative and we have nothing to talk about. Those who breed add to the problem by taking up potential pet homes that would otherwise be offered to pets currently without.

When there is a crisis in the real world, people put down what they are doing and try and help. Well there is a crisis in the animal world right now. Its time for people to put down their hobbies, buckle down and clean up the mess we have created. So many times so called "responsible" breeders regale me with tales of all the things they are doing to help when the ultimate fact is that they are still adding to the population, taking up home space, ergo becoming a part of the problem. What these "breeders" should be doing is working with each and every person who comes to them for an animal and helping them find one stuck in a shelter somewhere. If only we could operate with such vigilence for a little while, the difference we would see would mean a lifetime of gift to many many many animals.

Living things are dying horrid, torturous deaths. This is no time for such frivolity as showing or breeding animals.

Dee

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Again, i'll say this.

Until all the animals in shelters have a home, we have nothing to talk about. Those who breed add to the problem by taking up potential pet homes that would otherwise be offered to pets currently without.

When there is a crisis in the real world, people put down what they are doing and try and help. Well there is a crisis in the animal world right now. Its time for people to put down their hobbies, buckle down and clean up the mess we have created.

Dee

While I understand your sentiment, the reality is a bit different.

Yes, some breeders add to the problem. Most responsible breeders to everything in their power to help the problem while still breeding fine dogs.

The reality is that there is a demand for purebred dogs of many breeds. There are many people out there that, for whatever reason, will not go to shelters or rescue groups for "used" dogs. If you do away with GOOD breeders, who breed for health, temperment and conformation then these people will go to their local pet shop (if they aren't already) to get their breed of choice.

A good, responsible breeder will only breed the best dog - conformation wise, temperment wise and healthwise and sell it only to people that have shown -through interviews and actions. These are the people that need to be encouraged to breed and not berated. They are taking nothing away from a shelter dog, but might just be saving a mill dog.

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 02:57 PM
:) Thank you LavenderRott!! Your comment is absolutely true!! During my screening process I find out what this person is looking for, a lot of times they want a companion only, when it is mentioned that papers are not important, I point out that there are animals at the local shelter that are in need of homes, and a lot of the time they are already house broken. I try to match up the people that are best suited for my dogs. I can't count the times that I have had disscussions on the best suited breed for a particular lifestyle. I will mention that I also volunteer at my local shelter.

LavenderRott you asked if I only show conformation? At this point that is all I have shown.......however I have a Pom who again doesn't much care for that type of thing, she is to bouncy, I have her registered to start in agility. My male rotti really enjoys tracking, I have plans to get him started in a training class in the spring. I wanted to only show conformation, but my dogs have other ideas and I want them to be happy at what they are doing. also you asked how my dogs offspring did in the ring.
Very Very well 3 out of the 5 puppies were/are being shown the one I handled got Best of oppisite sex, Winners Bitch and best puppy in breed. She is a champion now. The other 2 are well on there way 1 sitting on 8 points and the other is sitting on 9 points. I found it surprising that the males did as well as they did because they are young still 9 months, and competing against full grown mature males.
My Poms...... well the puppies I kept back are still to young to be shown but when they get to 6 months we will see..............I hope they do well they look like nice babies to me, but I am fairly new to the pom world.
My Siberian, I need to find her a pal that can keep up with her.... then the plan is to learn to mush....to do what she will love to do. I have contacted a breeder of Siberians and she has a male that was returned for being a Siberian
howling, digging, escaping......he is fixed, I hope to get him before the snow flyes.

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2004, 03:08 PM
I have met dogs that are all show and no go and quite frankly I am unimpressed. To me, a rottweiler must be the complete package, beauty and the brains to go with it. These dogs are meant to work and I want one that is up to the job.

BTW, both of my current dogs are rescue.

Delirium
October 13th, 2004, 03:18 PM
I completely disagree. Without options, a person has no choice. I don't feel that those people who refuse "used" dogs should be entitled to one in the first place. When the problem is solved and we have such luxury to be picky than fine. Prior to that, I can't support it.

Also, all of our dogs today are mutts. Old mutts, granted, but mutts nevertheless. There is nothing in a "breed" that needs to be preserved in my eyes. Nothing that can't or won't be found elsewhere.

Sentiment can become reality with a little bit of conviction.

Dee

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 03:19 PM
Agreed, Rottweilers are ment to work and are happiest when they are working. Same with the Siberians. The Mom I mentioned that jumped the whelping box at 4 weeks...........I have to say she was a beautiful looking dog but soooooo lazy, couldn't get that dog to run longer than 5 mins. Her line was a working line but it wasn't evident in her. She is now a kids dog she lives on an acreage with 3 kids (teens) and I am told that she is still lazy, she walks a lot but still doesn't want to run. She is an exellent family pet and they love her to death! Just not what I needed to reproduce.

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 03:36 PM
I understand what you are saying .........however unrealistic, Options being the key word! not every dog fits into everyones lifestyle, that is the reason for those options. There are hundreds of breeds out there and there is a breed for everyone. A person with allergies needs a certain type of dog, a person with an active lifestyle needs another type of dog, a person with limited space needs another type of dog. I dont feel that a person should be MADE to find their pet at the local shelter. I do feel that if it is a compainion pet and papers are not important and there is the breed that fits their lifestyle in a shelter then by all means adopt a pet there. I think that if breeders were more careful about who took their dogs there would be fewer animals in shelters. I think that pet stores who sell live animals should be made responsible for each and every animal they sell.............just like me. I am ultimately responsible for every life I produce here. the pet stores should be too. I think that there is a purpose for a PUREBRED dog it is to maintain a standard, QUALITY, HEALTH, TEMPERAMENT. When a person buys a purbred dog there is an expectation of what this dogs temerament, exersice needs, grooming needs etc are based on the dogs breed. I would NEVER place a Siberian Husky with a family who had no time to work the dog..........when you get a mixed dog and you don't know the mix.......the results can be devastating! The dog ends up back in a shelter because the new owners don't know what to do to make the dog happy.

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2004, 03:45 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you can take away my option of what type of dog I can have, which option will you be after next? What kind of car I can drive? What I can watch on t.v.? Sorry, I live in a country where I am allowed to make those decisions. If I wanted to live somewhere where I had no options, well, I guess I would have to move to Cuba.

The problem is not responsible Code of Ethics breeders. It is puppy millers and commercial breeders that have several litters on the ground at the same time that you need to start with. There is a vast difference between someone who has a kennel with 200+ breeding dogs and someone who has maybe one litter a year.

chico2
October 13th, 2004, 04:00 PM
I do not know much about breeders,but I think we should give credit when credit is due.Like LR said there is a need for GOOD breeders and from what I've read XTreamDogs seem to be doing all the right things,to ensure a well bred dog.
Of course it would be wonderful if all the shelters would be emptied of dogs/cats first,no more breeding,but that is wishful thinking,it's not going to happen.
Personally,were I ever to get a dog,a beautiful Rottie for instance,I know I would be more comfortable getting a puppy from a good breeder,getting him used to my cats right off.
I would love and take care of any dog/cats,but I don't think I am knowledgable enough to give the right care to a dog who's been abused or has other psychological problems.
Sure,a puppy can have problems too and often does,but I would know how to deal with those problems,I would know where he came from.
Now,if I could not get a dog from a breeder,I would get some old dog,that nobody wants and make his last couple of years happy ones.

mastifflover
October 13th, 2004, 04:20 PM
Chico it is amazing how much you dont realize that you have picked while on this board. You would be good you have a big heart and you care deeply for animals and that is half of rescue. Of course some dogs require a lot more work then others but you are smart enough to know when one of these dogs would need an owner more experienced with rescues. Don't forget how many puppies come into rescues you would do fine with one that is young enough to introduce to your purring furkids

chico2
October 13th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Thank's Mastifflover,I have had dogs before,but a long time ago a GSD/chow X,a ****erspaniel and a Collie and chances are,at our age we will not again have a dog :( But when I hear of,or see old abandonned dogs in a shelter,it's very difficult,so who knows,we just might.
I go to our HS ever now and then with blankets,pillows,newspapers,toys and things,but have so far stayed away from the dog-rooms for a very obvious reason :(

mastifflover
October 13th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Chico older dogs are the easiest ones to deal with they have passed all the puppy stuff and just want to love you and you love them

LL1
October 13th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Excellent post Delirium - I completely agree with you.

Again, i'll say this.

Until all the animals in shelters have a home, my views will remain conservative and we have nothing to talk about. Those who breed add to the problem by taking up potential pet homes that would otherwise be offered to pets currently without.

When there is a crisis in the real world, people put down what they are doing and try and help. Well there is a crisis in the animal world right now. Its time for people to put down their hobbies, buckle down and clean up the mess we have created. So many times so called "responsible" breeders regale me with tales of all the things they are doing to help when the ultimate fact is that they are still adding to the population, taking up home space, ergo becoming a part of the problem. What these "breeders" should be doing is working with each and every person who comes to them for an animal and helping them find one stuck in a shelter somewhere. If only we could operate with such vigilence for a little while, the difference we would see would mean a lifetime of gift to many many many animals.

Living things are dying horrid, torturous deaths. This is no time for such frivolity as showing or breeding animals.

Dee

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 05:43 PM
I want to say thank you for at least listening to what I had to say, I am glad I live in a country where I have the option to choose what breed of dog I will own or will own me really........I also have cats 2 both rescued, I have had them for going on 14 years now, they are both about 16 years old. My puppies are exposed to my cats, much to the distaste of my cats! my son has a snake.....which I absolutely can not touch <ewwww> we made sure that the snake was captive born and eating frozen mice. My Son wants to be a Vet when he grows up so much to my disliking he brings home creatures of all size and breed, birds, frogs, dogs, cats, even a baby deer once. owls, skunks etc.
I do all I can to protect and place every lost, hurt, abandon animal that comes our way. I love all animals and with that shelters would suddenly be empty, and have to shut their doors..............I do all I can to help with my time, extra food, cat litter and cash donations. That being said I still can not feel guilty about producing solid, beautiful, healthy dogs for other responsible owners to love for years to come. One last point to make.........I offer follow up support for the life of the dog, I am not a certiified dog trainer, but I do have experience raising my type of breeds, I can offer hints on teaching your puppy, also advice on training, and help with concerns that a new owner may have. This is the kind of support that doesn't come from a pet store.

heeler's rock!
October 13th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Well Xtream, thanks for coming back and explaining yourself. I agree that you are on the right track and learning as much as you can about breeding.

As for the training I do, I am certified although in Canada you don't have to be. I was certified through a man here in Calgary who has been working with dogs for over 15 years and his school is called Yuppy Puppy International. It's not an accredited program, as there aren't really any in Canada, but the information I learned was just incredible. He is amazing with dogs and one of the best trainers I have ever seen! I hope one day, 15 years from now, I can be that good! I only do obedience training and I use a 6 foot leash and a Martingale collar (part choke but not complete choke collar. I find these to give much cleaner corrections and they are easy to use.) The training I do teaches the owner as much, if not more, than the dog. I teach them how to be Alpha and establish themselves as the pack leader. I don't use treats or clickers or gentle leaders. I don't believe those things fix problems, they just cover them up. Just a good sturdy 6 ft. leash and a martingale collar. :)

Xtream Dogs
October 13th, 2004, 11:16 PM
Exellent! I also believe that the treat, clicker etc do nothing but cover up the issue. I want my dogs to listen even if I don't have a hot dog in my hand. My dog trainer used the same type of collar, she trained me to train my dogs, the collar is used for a correction NOT a steering tool. I don't know how many times she gave me s*!@t "the collar should be slack" and I find that my dogs to this day, they were 5 months old when we trained them, my dogs are still exellent in terms of there training, and they are amost 6 yrs old now. I have put Diesel, my Male, on a down stay and forgot about him..........an hour later he is still there. poor boy. We did both hand and voice commands. I personally like the hand better, if I am on the phone and I let in the dogs when its wet outside, I don't have to put my caller on hold to put my dogs on a down stay.

heeler's rock!
October 14th, 2004, 10:36 AM
:D Yeah, I have to say that training really opened up my eyes. My oldest heeler was my first dog ever and I tried everything with her. Treats, sound diversion, and many others. she responded, but if I wasn't carrying treats around, she wouldn't listen. Now, my 2 one year old puppies, will stop on command and sit. They won't move until I tell them. They sit with a snap, stay for EVER, and listen pretty darn well for one year olds! we still have a lot of work, but now I can't ever go back to treats and such. i also like knowing my dogs listen to me, no matter what situation we're in! :D

GsdDiamond
October 14th, 2004, 11:14 AM
How did you get your pups to listen to you so well? Diamond knows fully well that if she's not on a leash, running through the backyard blowing steam, she doesn't listen worth a bean, and she knows I can't catch her.

Treats do and don't work for her. She doesn't really care either way.

heeler's rock!
October 14th, 2004, 01:09 PM
What i did with my pups is not take them off leash, but just let the leash drag. Everytime they started getting in front of me, I'd step on it and the collar would correct them. They'd slow down for a bit, but then try it again. Then what I did was turn around and walk away from them, clap my hands a few times and say their name, only once. They'd come running back to me, just to get in front of me again, so I'd change directions again and repeat the clapping and calling them. If they chose not to come see me, I'd go and get them, and give them a good correction and not the leash go again and try again the next day. They learned that if they wanted to be off leash, they had to come when I called them, and only go and play if I said it's okay. If not, they'd get to stay with me on leash for the rest of the walk. Another thing is to give your dog a time out. If she refuses to listen, tie her to a tree and stay about 10 ft away for about 5 min. Let her watch all the other dogs having fun so she'll learn that if she doesn't behave, she gets time outs. Then, keep her on leash when you take her off, ask her to sit and then let her go play. The second she disobeys you, keep her on leash or give her a time out. Also, don't repeat yourself. Calling your dog 20 times is just going to desensitize your dog from your voice. Ask the dog once, and if they look at you or turn their ears so you know they heard you, go get them. Too many people talk too much to their dogs and the dog just learns that your voice is annoying and they don;t wanna listen to you. In the wild, wolves don't repeat commands to the pups. If they don't listen, they get punished. Simple yet effective. These worked really well for my dogs and I've seen a huge improvement! :D

Daisie
October 31st, 2004, 12:10 PM
Hey Extreme,

I saw you plan to get a a siberian male as companion for your female. Can I ask if you talked with Shannon Bruin...Edmonton breeder. She is awesome, and could teach you how to mush, she is a ckc breeder, but also breeds and shows other dogs. Anyways, good choice if you are going to get one from her.

About the breeding, I too agree that people need a choice. There may be alot of fine dogs in the shelters, I personally would pick one that was not in a kennel but went through a fostering time. I have to consider my young children. I don't agree with puppies in the pet store, they are the pups that the "breeder" could not sell...the ones that you may have trouble with. Also they have been put there at the youngest age possible...to stay cute. I am against some breeders who charge $1000 dollars for a dog, just because they have a show background, or imported lines....don't care. I'm also against "breeders" that do nothing with those pups and ask $200, just because they wanted money.

It is up to the buyer to be aware of what to look for, what they really want from a pet, and make the best choice for them. If you see the home, and see how well looked after the mom and pups are, and possibly the dad, then you can have a better sense of what these pups will be like. If the breeder ask you nothing, and says to you these puppies are all perfect then be suspicious. Each pup will have a unique personality, and they should be matched up with the owner. If the breeder can prove they have done testing, and taken every effort to make sure they have sound parents...vs yeah my dog mated with the stray dog, I don't know what he was??????I'm still charging $300, walk away.

People have control of the market, you don't have to buy that puppy, even if it's free, be aware of the problems and you have the choice to walk away.

pitbulliest
October 31st, 2004, 01:35 PM
Here's my 2 cents:

While I fully realize that there are simply way too many dogs in shelters right now...and that there are too many irresponsible backyard breeders in this world....I think its absolutely unfair to blame the handful of truely reputable and responsible breeders out there...although rare, they do exist..and they're not here to make things worse for the dogs, but they are here for the betterment of the breed (that is, of course, if they are truely reputable and responsible breeders as I have mentioned).

We have to remember that the dogs in shelters are not there because of the faults of responsible dog owners and breeders, but because of backyard breeders and irresponsible dog owners...a good breeder always ensures that he/she will keep in touch with the buyers of the pups..and if they can't keep it, the owner takes them back..no excuses..this is part of being a great breeder...and these people only make a breed better, not worse...the dogs in the shelters are there because we have stupid people that breed for money and nothing else..and stupid people that buy without doing their research...

Don't you think its fair to blame those people instead of someone that is taking 100% responsibility for the dogs that they bring into the world, and ensuring that those dogs will NEVER end up in a shelter or rescue? Like I said, these people are rare, but they do exist. Hence I think its unfair to say that breeders should not exist, and that no dogs should be bred until the shelter animals are all adopted out. Lets be realistic here..that is never going to happen until we get rid of the stupid people..and as we can see here, its not really happening and these shmucks will always be around to screw things up...my primary example is this pit bull ban. Its not happening because of responsible people and owners but because of criminals, drug dealers, backyard breeders, and dogmen. SO should we punish the good people, or the bad people?

That's MY two cents.

Cflat
October 31st, 2004, 01:47 PM
The term "responsible breeder" is, in my opinion an oxymoron. I think all the "responsible breeders" should have to work at a shelter putting to sleep all the unwanted dogs and cats that "responsible breeders" have helped to produce. The breeder breeds "perfect" dogs and sells them (right there I must think about a breeder's motive). The breeder doesn't hear that the new owners have changed their mind about the dog (after all they would be failing). The dog is given away, or sold, its bred because the "responsible breeder" never put out the money to have it fixed PRIOR to its going to a new home. Then the litters keep coming and coming. The cycle is repeated by the thousands daily. I'm with Dee, until all the fluffy creatures in cages don't exist I see no need for breeding of any kind. People who insist on a purebred that don't show are either uneducated or on an ego trip. It also makes NO sense to me that a dog has to be intact to be shown. The AKC and the CKC should get their act's together and stop that neandrethal practice.

pitbulliest
October 31st, 2004, 01:59 PM
C flat..that's where you're wrong...a responsible owner is not an oxymoron, because a responsible owner loses more money on breeding their dogs than they gain. THEY ARE NOT in it for the money..and any gains that they might have are used to cover all vet/medical/health testing costs/etc.

Furthermore, responsible breeders have experience from working in shelters and belong to various rescue groups that they partake in on a regular basis. They are very active in these fields. Furthermore, a responsible breeder has a contract that prohibits the buyers from breeding the animal and they must provide proof that they have fixed the dog within a certain time period. If they do breed it, the breeder has every right to take them to court and gain 100% posession of all the pups in that case.

Also, a truely responsible and good breeder always shows their dogs prior to breeding..and not just once or twice..they have had years of experience with the specific type of dog before they even think about having a litter. Also, no responsible breeder breeds more than ONE specific breed of dog that they have specialized in. You're also forgetting that a good breeder will not breed their dog until it is AT LEAST 2 - 3 years of age, and will breed the dog a maximum time of once a year...but most will breed once every second or third year.

All the examples and comments you have put out on your post are to me, describing a backyard breeder, not a responsible breeder. This just tells me that you DO NOT know what a responsible breeder is like..and I don't blame you..alot of people have no idea...that's why there are so many problems with dogs right now..because people are getting their puppies from the BYB breeders...and they don't even know it!

LavenderRott
October 31st, 2004, 02:04 PM
I can assure you that many people that I know that own purebred dogs are neither stupid nor egotistical! To make a statement like that is rude, to say the least.

I am sorry that you don't know any responsible breeders, but I can assure you they are out there. To say that all animals should be spayed and neutered is really not thinking things through, because in 20 years all breeds of dogs would be extinct.

I give money and time to rescues. I have worked in the shelter sytem and held both puppies and kittens while they have been pts. I have two dogs, one was rescued from a shelter, the other was found wandering the streets.

My next dog will be from a responsible breeder. Having put in many many hours of research in finding the right breeder, I can assure you that I am not stupid and am far from egotistical.

doggy lover
November 3rd, 2004, 08:10 PM
Just a thought, how many dogs from responsible breeders/owners really end up in animal shelters. What I see is mostly cross breeds ( not that there is anything wrong with them ) but most breeders only breed purebred dogs. As a owner if you spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on a dog that you want, you have probably researched the breed and picked the type of dog that is best for you, and if you have problems you are not going to send say a $1000 GSD to the shelter you are going to spend a few hundred more to get help from a trainer. When I was looking for a new pup I checked out THS and other places almost all their dogs were Pit bull crosses, not what I wanted. So maybe I'm selfish but why get into trouble with a problem that someone else created, these poor animals were not from breeders but unresponsible people who didn't think. If everyone got their dogs fixed and were responsible for taking care of them until death do they part their wouldn't be animals in shelters. People must stop and think what they are getting into, go to a petstore and listen to them, they see the cute little puppy and don't think that that pup is going to become a 120lb dog, or is a dog that should never be bought by a first time owner. Education is the issue, and who not better to decide weather you get a puppy or not, someone that has the best intrest of their puppies at heart and can make you get the pup fixed a responsible breeder.

GsdDiamond
November 4th, 2004, 09:14 AM
People who insist on a purebred that don't show are either uneducated or on an ego trip. It also makes NO sense to me that a dog has to be intact to be shown. The AKC and the CKC should get their act's together and stop that neandrethal practice.

I take offence at the qwip about being "uneducated" or "on an ego trip" because I bought a purebred dog that I won't be showing. I bought a purebred dog after doing much research into the type of dog I wanted, the character traits of the breed, temperment, requirements the dog had in food, exercise, etc.
I don't know if a "mixed" breed dog is going to be a sound choice. In my lifetime I've owned 3 dogs. One purebred (now) who's physically and mentally perfect for the breed. My two previous dogs (not owned at the same time) both had either temperment issues or physical ones.
- First dog: temperment issue. The dog, at 4 months old, thought she was alpha. She was a highly aggressive dog who drew blood on purpose on more than one occassion. Obedience classes and temperment experts did not help this dog. End result: PTS
- Second dog: physical issue. The dog was rescued from a BYB who didn't give a rat's a$$ about his dogs. The poor thing had worms so bad, her blood pressure was through the roof. This caused her blood vessels in her eyes to rupture causing gradual blindness. She's with my ex now as when I left the house, I moved into a no-pets allowed apartment block. If she's still alive she'd be about 9 years old and totally blind now.

When a dog is shown in the ring, there is to be no physical alteration of the dog. This includes spay/neuter. Dogs who win in the ring usually have other titles under their collars and are prime candidates for continuing the betterment of the breed. Male dogs who are prone to testicles that won't drop, aren't a dog that breeders want to breed, or at least reputable ones.
My dog isn't a show dog because she isn't 100% perfect. Her fault? Long hair. That's it. Becuase of this she isn't a candidate for breeding, and I'm ok with that. That's why the reputable breeder we bought her from (someone who sells dogs to Police agencies, runs a Shutzhund club, and also owns Canadian champions) sold her to someone who only wanted a pet. Stipulation? She be fixed as soon as the Vet would allow. Fine by us.

So before you decide that people who buy purebreds are only in it for the "glory" of owning a purebred dog, ask someone why they bought one. I, for one, did my homework.

trescanis
November 6th, 2004, 12:02 PM
Great response to a person who is ignorant of the facts GsdDiamond.


Trescanis http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/spezial/Fool/appl.gif

DogueLover
November 6th, 2004, 12:43 PM
I take offense also to the quote about people only getting purebred dogs for an ego trip or because they are uneducated.
I realize that it is unfair to the thousands of dogs and cats that are pts in shelters every year however it is highly unlikely that they were sold by reputable breeders. Reputable breeders will screen out unlikely "lifelong pet owners" and those who want a power or ego trip by buying certain breeds.
I have a purebred Dogue de Bordeaux that I looked long and hard for. I spent years educating myself on the breed and checking bloodlines before I got my Dogue. These dogs, as I am sure most owners of purebreds will agree, are not only lifelong companions, but an Investment. The dogs sold by reputable breeders will end up back at the breeder should the owner not be able to keep them for any reason.(AT least that is what our understanding is from our dog`s breeder).
I will not argue that there are unwanted purebred dogs out there, but they come from owners who did not educate themselves and did not prepare themselves for the long term commitment it takes to keep a pet. Those people need to keep virtual pets as they only take the commitment these people are willing to spend.
I used to rescue Rottweillers and still love the breed, I have seen some of the worst temperments I could imagine in any dog with some of the Rottis I cared for, all brought on by moronic ego chasers who thought it would be fun to make their BIG DOG A MEAN DOG TOO. It makes you wonder what they do to people if they are able to mistreat and beat an animal that way.
Fair treatment and a lot of patience turned the rottis in my care around... although sometimes it took more than a year.

I believe that your bitterness is somewhat justified considering what you have to face every day in the shelter but cut some slack here when making blanket statements about all pet owners.

Delirium
November 6th, 2004, 08:32 PM
I realize that it is unfair to the thousands of dogs and cats that are pts in shelters every year however

And this is why I agree 100% with Cflat. Its not about us. Its about the millions of dogs dying every year. We're suffering an epidemic and during an epidemic its time to put down the hobbies and other unnecessaries and focus on fixing the problem. Once we've got homes for all of the angels in shelters and rescues, then lets talk nice to haves. In the meantime, pick up a shovel. Its time to get dirty. Every breeder, bad or worse, takes up potential animal friendly space in homes around the country. They should be referring every single one of their potential customers to shelters and rescues near to them and assisting them in finding a preexisting dog that meets their needs/requirements. Saving lives: Now THAT's what I call working for the betterment of a breed.

Wish we had the luxury to afford choice.

Dee

pitbulliest
November 6th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Again, I have to disagree. It is actually the responsible breeders that probably do more for breed rescues and shelters than any of us. They are very active, like I said, when it comes to these issues. Again, its the BYB that we need to focus on. They're the ones that puppy mill their way through life. A responsible breeder will have at the most, a litter per year, but usually once every two years or even more...not to mention, those dogs DO NOT end up in shelters.

As for the dogs in shelters, well again those animals are there because of BYB and uneducated people that purchase the dogs from them and pet shops. As for your comment about breeders referring customers to shelters...that is exactly what happens at least 70% of the time. The breeders that I know breed show quality dogs...and occassionally they will have "pet" dogs for sale...but they do heavy screenings on homes..and if you have no experience...and aren't planning to show your dog..then they tell you that you should be looking at adopting a dog...these breeders have a waiting list. Some people are waiting for 3 or 4 years..or even more, to get that "pet" dog. I really don't think responsible breeders add to the problem...I think they do alot to help out homeless dogs, and it would be absolutely wrong to give them the evil eye when its clearly not them that are causing this whole ordeal in the first place. What needs to be stopped are the BYB and the puppy mills...if people stopped buying dogs from pet shops, the problem would decrease tenfold!!!

Remember, responsible breeders are on OUR side..

Delirium
November 6th, 2004, 10:54 PM
That's the thing. Its not clear. I have seen even championship dogs available for adoption on petfinder. They're bringing dogs into an already over crowded world. A travesty for which there is no excuse. If every dog owner who at one point in their life bought a dog from a breeder of any degree of evil adopted a shelter dog instead, we wouldn't be in nearly half the state we're in today. So called "responsible" breeders included. Of course I use the term only in an attempt to translate.

Also, showing is currently a horrible farce. An antiquated pasttime, long since past its appropriateness in today's society. Only when these archaic organizations bring their practices into the modern world and not only accept but require spaying and neutering before competition in the ring will I consider them valid. As it stands today, they contribute to the epidemic of overpopulation directly and also by adding to the impression that a fixed dog is "broken" or unacceptable.

Dee

pitbulliest
November 7th, 2004, 12:48 AM
You say that its not clear..but IT IS..its very clear...there are strict guidelines to being a responsible breeder..and if a person falls out of those guidelines...than they're not responsible breeders..end of story...that's why there are so few to begin with...

Anyways...I'm finished with this thread as we will choose to believe what they want to believe. I say focus on the BYB idiots and the puppy mills...when we get rid of them, then we'll worry about the next step.

Bugsy
November 7th, 2004, 02:22 AM
In my opinion, the blame should be put on the irresponsible owners
period. It's just all about supply & demand. :sad:

Now, if we could get potential new owners to think beyond their noses.... :thumbs up

mona_b
November 15th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Amen Pit.

You have done your homework... ;)

I just need to add a couple of things...My GSDs have come from a VERY reputable licenced breeder.I was put on a waiting list BEFORE breeding was to take place.I was put through a lot of red tape.I was also put on a no-breeding contract.That meant if I didn't have them neutured,I would have been fined $5000.I had to show her the vets papers to prove it.My breeder also did rescue work and belonged to the clubs.3 of my GSD's have come from her.My one is a retired Police Dog that I had and trained for 18 months before he went to my work with my brother.Yes,Police dogs come from licenced breeders.It's the BYB's we should be focusing on.They are the ones who are doing it for money only.They breed wat before it should be done.And I mean before the age of 2.They are not doing any heath or genetic testing.They are not OVF or OVC checked.These are the ones we are seeing in the sheltersAnd you will not see licenced responsible breeders advertising in the paper.

Here is a very good link.

http://geocities.com/petsburgh/fair/1901/chart.html