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Advice needed

erykah1310
November 2nd, 2011, 10:58 PM
Here's the situation, a friend of mine obtained a dog from an "aspiring breeder" who wanted her dogs in "foster" as she basically has lost intrest in breeding but spent a lot of money to purchase these dogs. So the deal is, you can have the dog, she gets to breed the dog to make money back ( no health testing what so ever) sells the litter to the first person who shows up with money and then you can have the female back with the papers to do what you want with:wall::wall::wall::wall:
Here's the scoop, my friend can not keep the dog but does not want to give the dog back to the "breeder" there was no written contract, it was all verbal. She is working very hard to find this dog a good home but wants her spayed as there are MORE than enough dogs of this breed in the area and variations of mixes going through our local "no kill" shelters ( another rant for another day) She is thinking of telling the "breeder" she has lost the dog or some other story. I asked if she knew the last time the dog was in heat and she said she has no idea as she has only had the dog for a little while. I told her to see if she could get her spayed and claim she had Pyo and tell the breeder that it was a matter of life or death. I know the "breeder" wont want anything to do with her anymore if she can't make some money back for her.
Legally is there any reprocussions my friend can suffer if she goes ahead with any of this? Or does any one else have any other idea?

I met this dog and fell IN LOVE with her which is odd as she is a breed that typically doesn't attract me much. But this girl is the sweetest most willing to please young dog I have ever met.

hazelrunpack
November 2nd, 2011, 11:07 PM
Legally, who owns the dog now? Did your friend pay any money for her, or just take her in?

Shaykeija
November 2nd, 2011, 11:21 PM
Would this breeder have Yorke's,German Sheppard's or boxers?

erykah1310
November 2nd, 2011, 11:53 PM
None of the above Shay, its not one of the ones near the puppy mill, who breeds yorkies out that way? I know of the GSD and Boxer people... is the mill people into yorkies now? Last I heard they were doing JRT's, Papillons, Chi's and of course the Bolonkas ( but I'm not seeing as many of those ads on kijiji anymore.
Hazel, I am not even sure who would technically own the dog, its at my friends house and no money or anything was exchanged

hazelrunpack
November 3rd, 2011, 12:00 AM
I think that question might be what I'd look into--who might make a legal claim on the dog. There would be no legal consequences to the spay if legally your friend owned the dog. And if she's housing, vetting and providing for the dog's other needs, your friend could well be the owner at this point. But to be sure, she might want to consult with a lawyer.

Choochi
November 3rd, 2011, 11:19 PM
Did the breeder keep any paper work i.e. pedigree? From a legal point of view I see it just coming down to who owns the dog, the breeder or your friend? If the breeder has any legal claim to owning the dog your friend could be in trouble if the breeder finds out the truth. At the very least I imagine she could sue for damage of property? Then ask to have the dog returned (legally) and try to resell her.

erykah1310
November 4th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Did the breeder keep any paper work i.e. pedigree? From a legal point of view I see it just coming down to who owns the dog, the breeder or your friend? If the breeder has any legal claim to owning the dog your friend could be in trouble if the breeder finds out the truth. At the very least I imagine she could sue for damage of property? Then ask to have the dog returned (legally) and try to resell her.
This is exactly the problem. No paperwork and microchip and everything still in breeders name. I advised her to return the dog to the breeder as much as I would rather it not. I don't know what she is planning on doing as she doesn't want to.:shrug:

BenMax
November 5th, 2011, 09:03 AM
She does not legally own this dog and therefore doing the responsible thing would definately be reason for legal action.
I was sued $2,000 for doing exactly this with a golden years ago. I ended up not having to pay nor going to court because if I was to be sued, then she would have had to prove 'loss of income'. This was a brilliant approach because for this particular 'breeder' she was not claiming her 'business' which meant she was not filing her taxes accordingly. I won, the dog was placed, and she is without one dog to extort.
This was a very important lesson for me to learn.

Longblades
November 5th, 2011, 09:31 AM
So I infer that the original dogs are CKC registered and the dog your friend has is as well? We all know that doesn't necessarily make any of them well bred or responsibly bred but surely there is a breed club that does endorse certain breeding practices? Could word surreptitiously be put out to the breeding community, the good breeders, that this situation is developing? Perhaps some help would be forthcoming.

What if you friend simply offers to buy the dog?

Is the deal now that your friend would absorb the costs of breeding and whelping puppies?

Just thinking out loud here. Really, it sounds like a sad mess. I have friends who own the stud of their breed. He was free on condition the original breeder get to use him at stud a predetermined number of times. They have all kinds of paperwork to say who, what, why, when etc. and of course the stud dog owner has few responsibilities after the deed is done. All my friends have been up for so far is transportation costs to meet with the bitch, which has been at the original breeders.

Choochi
November 5th, 2011, 10:22 AM
She would definitely be facing possible legal action, and some times in the eyes of the law doing the right thing illegally just makes you look like a nut so I wouldn't count on any one being easy on her.

I like Longblades suggestion, could she offer to buy the dog?

Etown_Chick
November 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
erykah, as this plays out, would you mind letting us know how it turns out? I think there's a lot of concern here for this doggie.
Thanks

erykah1310
November 8th, 2011, 10:26 PM
She offered to pay for the dog, but the price of the dog is nothing compared to what this woman thinks she can get from a litter.
I'm not positive which registrating body the dog is registered with as the papers were never given.
The "breeder" is now in possession of the dog again but I have been in contact with her as she is now desperate to "place" a few on "foster" (I'm starting to despise that "breeders" are using rescue terms)
I'm trying to go about things carefully with the "breeder" right now as she is considering NOT breeding. I have been telling her horror stories to every question she has asked me so far. The one thing that seemed to really get her thinking recently was "If you can't even place these dogs how do expect to sell them?" that question seemed to resinate a bit. Here's hoping.
I will keep everyone posted on how it goes. I know its just one dog I am fighting for when there are plenty more there and I feel horrible for the rest I truely do but I just don't know what else to do. I have an attachment to this one as I have never met the others but I still wish they all could find loving family homes.

erykah1310
November 8th, 2011, 10:27 PM
the "deal" is more that you keep the dog forever but this person takes them back to breed, house while in whelp then whelp and wean and you get the dog back.... :(

Sylvie
November 9th, 2011, 05:23 AM
Good luck and thank you for trying to change her mind. :grouphug:

hazelrunpack
November 9th, 2011, 09:17 AM
I do hope she has a change of heart! :goodvibes: :grouphug:

happycats
November 9th, 2011, 06:08 PM
This is about either doing what's legally right or ethically right.
Me I would do what I believe is ethically right......make the dog get lost :)
But to each his own, many people fear the law, so would do the legally right thing. That being said what's the worst that can happen if you break the law....you get sued and she has to first prove you took her dog (property) and if the judge believes her, you have to pay her what the dog was worth at the time of the theft. Since the dog is a mutt and unpapered maybe she would have to pay $200.00 tops.

So the question really is, is she willing to pay $200.00 (worst case scenerio) to save this dog ?

Longblades
November 9th, 2011, 06:49 PM
This is about either doing what's legally right or ethically right.
Me I would do what I believe is ethically right......make the dog get lost :)
But to each his own, many people fear the law, so would do the legally right thing. That being said what's the worst that can happen if you break the law....you get sued and she has to first prove you took her dog (property) and if the judge believes her, you have to pay her what the dog was worth at the time of the theft. Since the dog is a mutt and unpapered maybe she would have to pay $200.00 tops.

So the question really is, is she willing to pay $200.00 (worst case scenerio) to save this dog ?But, but, but, isn't your scenario overlooking who gets to keep the dog? And wouldn't it, if the judge believes the original owner, the crummy one, be that crummy one? I think it would be the crummy owner.

happycats
November 9th, 2011, 07:01 PM
But, but, but, isn't your scenario overlooking who gets to keep the dog? And wouldn't it, if the judge believes the original owner, the crummy one, be that crummy one? I think it would be the crummy owner.

But if the dog gets "lost" ;) then you only have to pay for it's value, since the law considers the dog poperty.
The dog can always re-appear later on, after the court case, and that's only if she sues :)

Choochi
November 10th, 2011, 01:22 PM
But if the dog gets "lost" ;) then you only have to pay for it's value, since the law considers the dog poperty.
The dog can always re-appear later on, after the court case, and that's only if she sues :)

And what, spend the rest of the dog's life in hiding and sneaking around in case the breeder decides to spy on you to prove you're lying? Would this become a criminal charge if you were found lying to the court?

Longblades
November 10th, 2011, 01:50 PM
But if the dog gets "lost" ;) then you only have to pay for it's value, since the law considers the dog poperty.
The dog can always re-appear later on, after the court case, and that's only if she sues :)Did you see the post saying the dog is back with the crummy breeder? Going to be kind of hard for that poor wee doggy to get "lost" now without raising suspicion. No matter who the dog is living with now, "lost" doesn't seem realistic or practical. Gee whiz, what a sad state of affairs.

happycats
November 10th, 2011, 05:08 PM
And what, spend the rest of the dog's life in hiding and sneaking around in case the breeder decides to spy on you to prove you're lying? Would this become a criminal charge if you were found lying to the court?

Just offering suggetions :shrug:

And in the law's eyes it's only a dog a $200.00 piece of property.......not murder so I doubt any one will have to look over their shoulders.

happycats
November 10th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Did you see the post saying the dog is back with the crummy breeder? Going to be kind of hard for that poor wee doggy to get "lost" now without raising suspicion. No matter who the dog is living with now, "lost" doesn't seem realistic or practical. Gee whiz, what a sad state of affairs.

No I didn't see that .....sorry :o