October 3rd, 2004, 10:50 PM
Don't want to hijack another's thread so I'm starting a new one. Actually I've wondered this for quite some time. Why are many of you against mixed breeds? I don't mean mutts, but I mean poodle crosses and such. Why is a breeder who is breeding mixed breeds any less ethical than another breeder? Some people like crosses... I thought that crosses (including mutts) generally have less health issues than pure breeds. I'm confused.
October 3rd, 2004, 11:20 PM
Most breeders who breed "designer" dogs are in it for the money. Plain and simple. If you take a Standard Poodle that has hip dysplasia and breed it to a labrador with hip dysplasia, you get puppies that will probably be crippled before they are a year old. And you can bet your boots, that the dogs used by puppy millers or commercial breeders have NOT been tested for any type of genetic problems or even heartworms!
This is the problem that I have with "designer" dogs.
A mutt is only has healthy as the genes he carries. The theory that a mutt is hardier then a purebred is a myth.
October 4th, 2004, 12:05 AM
I'm not sure my question was answered...??? I'm still confused. Why are "designer" dog breeders less ethical? You say they are doing it purely for profit, but I don't understand why they are any worse than any other breeder. Just because they are mixed breeds, they are a puppy mill or BYB? That doesn't make sense to me.
BTW, I don't have any emotional investment in this -- I'm not a breeder of any kind, nor is my dog a "designer" breed. I'm just genuinely curious.
October 4th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Reputable breeders breed for only one reason - betterment of the breed. Health testing and showing to a championship is the only way to judge if a dog is a good candidate for breeding.
Mixes cannot be judged by these standards, so breeding must be done for another reason - profit, right? Making money is not a good or ethical reason to breed.
Shelters and rescues are packed with hundreds of thousands of dogs - most of them mixed breeds. Until they have homes, I think it's despicable to be churning out more of them merely to line someone's pockets.
October 4th, 2004, 12:55 AM
I guess I see what you're saying. I just feel sorry for people who have a mixed breed puppy they love (which they thought they had responsibly gotten from a breeder rather than a pet shop) and they come here to be told that their dog is from a puppy mill or BYB. Anyway, thanks for explaining!
IMO, Lucky Rescue, your last sentence is painfully true -- but I'm not sure that the "reputable" breeders should be churning out more puppies either...
October 4th, 2004, 02:29 AM
We NEED the responsible breeders to continue breeding, if they didn't, we would be left with BYB/puppy mills, not places one should get a pup from. These breeders never breed without a waiting list, and ALWAYS take back/re-home any pup they breed, as well as spay/neuter any "pet" quality pup they place. Wouldn'y it be nice if all breeders were this responsible? And yes, it is VERY possible for breeders to do this, as many do :)
October 4th, 2004, 05:42 AM
That's kind of what I was thinking, Dinah.
October 4th, 2004, 07:39 AM
The breeder that I am getting my next rottweiler from is NOT in it for the money. If she was, she would be cranking out puppies twice a year per bitch. As it stands, if I put my name on the waiting list now, I should get a puppy in about 3 years.
The list of criteria for any dog she breeds:
They must have a championship.
They must have at least one working title.
Their hips must be certified.
Their elbows must be certified.
Their hearts must be certified.
This is BOTH parents. So if you honestly think that after completing the above list for both the sire and dam they are gioing to make enough money to cover what it cost to do the above, you are sadly mistaken.
October 4th, 2004, 11:49 AM
All breeders are into it for the money, first
Nope. For breeders who do it right and who only breed when they want another dog for themselves, lose money.
Take a Dobie breeder I know. She breeds maybe once every 5 years, when she herself needs a new dog for breeding/showing. In the meantime, she travels the country showing her dogs. Major expense - travelling, hotels, etc.
Of course, her dog will have all health testing for any defects common to that breed - another big expense.
When the dog has attained a championship, she may breed it. Another huge expense for the stud fee of another champion dog, who may have to be flown to her, or she flies her bitch to the stud.
So now we are probably up to maybe 5000.00$ for this litter.
The litter of puppies need food, shots, ear cropping and tail docking. All this may run to another 1000.00$
So if there are 5 puppies in the litter and she sells them for 1,000.00 each, that comes to 5000.00$ she makes. Since she has spent way more than that to get to this point, exactly how is she making money??
And even this is assuming there are no emergency C-section, or serious health problems before or after whelping, and that none of the puppies need any extensive care.
Do you still think she, or anyone who is doing it right, is "in it for the money"?
October 4th, 2004, 12:00 PM
Well stated Lucky. I know a Mastiff breeder in the states who for the first time in 4 litters actually turned a profit. This is common for breeders to maybe break even but these are the ones that are truly about betterment of the breed. Yes ideally they would love to make money but the costs are also high to do it properly.
October 4th, 2004, 12:21 PM
I have just adopted a wonderful dog (5 year old lab mix, female) from the City pound Friday! I couldn't ask for a more loving dog. I am waiting for something "bad" to happen as I can't believe how wonderful she is (to good to be true).
I have mixed feelings on breeders. Everyone says buy from a breeder but I have found most people who call themselves breeders are NOT doing it for the love of the breed. Let's face it most breeders are in it for the money. When I was looking for an older dog (Golden actually) I contacted 8 Golden breeders (from a supposedly reputable web site for only registered Goldens in Alberta) around Calgary and only one contacted me with an adult dog. I had 4 of the 10 asking if I wanted puppies though. The one that did contact me with an adult (1 year old male) said he had a limp from "falling as a puppy" (not sure about the truth here) and wanted $500 for him. It is unethical to bred dogs and cats to make money, in my opinion and most people do just that!
However, I have this time and will in the future rescue a dog from the City or SPCA to take home someone's irresponsibilty.
October 4th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Agree with the general concensus. I have yet to meet a breeder who actually earns a living from breeding. Most of them have a spouse or SO who has a "day job".
Designer breeds were created for the sole purpose of fleecing those who don't know any better (people looking for the perfect, hypo-allergenic, non-shedding, child-friendly dog).
Breeding crosses (meaning one pure-bred to another) will still give you health issues if the parents have them. I think the whole "mixed breeds are healthier" thing refers to true "mutts". When you have generations upon generations of "natural selection" so to speak, breed-specific health issues are more likely to be bred out. Of course, there is always a chance that the "bad gene" is still in there somewhere, just not as likely as with badly bred purebreds or crosses. Just my opinion, tho. ;)
October 4th, 2004, 05:23 PM
I know this may be completely off topic but I was wondering what BYB means? I always see it and never know what it stands for. I am sorry if that seems stupid - I am sure it will when I find out and it is something painfully obvious :o
October 4th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Well I can't imagine anyone going into any business without the goal of turning a profit
You are not understanding what reputable breeding is all about. It's not a business, unless you are a puppy miller or backyard breeder, who are the only people who make money from breeding dogs. Responsible breeding is a passion and a serious and costly HOBBY.
Responsible and ethical breeding is done for the for the love of the breed, and wanting to make a breed the best you can make it is the goal, not $$$.
Most breeders are not independantly wealthy, and juggle their goals in breeding with jobs and all the other things anyone must do to make a living.
They do NOT expect to support themselves off dog peddling profits. They do NOT breed to create pets.
Did you read my above posts on the costs of ethical breeding? The numbers don't lie, and I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
October 4th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Tyr, BYB is Back Yard Breeder. :)
On that note, what does IMHO mean? 250 or so posts now, and I still don't know....forshame.... :o
October 4th, 2004, 07:11 PM
On that note, what does IMHO mean? 250 or so posts now, and I still don't know....forshame.... :o
LOL Took me a while to figure this one out too. IMHO = In my humble opinion (at least, that's what I think it means). :p
October 4th, 2004, 07:14 PM
BYB= Back yard Breeder (I had the same problem figureing it out!! :p )
Just wanted to add my 2 cents re: Breeders.
I think passion sometimes (and for some ppl) outweighs any monetary incentives!! I have a passion for medicine, when I run courses the participants are charged a fee.... however the money is used only to cover (most) of the expenses.... I don't actually make money!
I think for some breeders the passion they have for their specific breed, and the passion to create "the perfect" Xbreed is motivation enough to breed their dogs.
Not everything worthwhile in life is done simply in the pursuit of money... think how sad that would be!!!
My 2 cents on "designer" pups.... my parents have one (they adopted from a shelter) and she is the most off the wall-mental dog (and they got off easy because she is not agressive at all!!). Jazzy was bred for her look, (we think they were trying to make a mini-dalmation) they crossed a JR with a dalmation. She is very cute... but mentally off-the-wall. She is soooooo hyperactive. (the vet says she has ADHD). When you breed 2 dogs together not only should you take into account the health of both, but the "type" of dog they are. As in a a toy dog bred with a working dog, or a terrier with a lap dog. The point of a designer dog is its "cuteness", not the mental health and general health of the dog!
No offence to anyone meant....Just my 2 cents :)
October 4th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Now I get it.
October 4th, 2004, 07:22 PM
they crossed a JR with a dalmation
:eek: Please say the dalmation was the mum!!! Passing dalmation pups through the birth canal of a JRT, OUCH!!!
IMHO = In my humble opinion (at least, that's what I think it means).
Okay, that makes sense!! What about LMAO? :o
October 4th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Sometimes, the breeding is just ignorance. Not spaying and neutering and the pet manages to get loose with disasterous results. The owner then tries to find good homes for the pups that they truly care about. I see these in the newspaper ads being offered for a very low price. I think their heart is in the right place and they do charge to avoid the pup ending up in a research lab. But they're ignorant of the need to spay and neuter. By the time they wise up and have it done, there's already been one accidental litter. This board is a wonderful place to educate these owners.
October 4th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Oh, this I know! LMAO = Laugh my a** off. I recently found out that putting ROTF in front of that means Rolling On The Floor (so you get ROTFLMAO = "rolling on the floor, laughing my a** off). Gotta get me an internet shorthand thesaurus. :o
And, yeah! Dal puppies out of a JRT? Ouch indeed (crosses her legs while cringing)! :eek:
October 4th, 2004, 10:05 PM
Don't know who was the mama and who was the papa of my parents dal-JR, but we've always hoped (and assumed...just for our own peace of mind) that mama was the Dal. They rescued her after the family that purchased her for quite a few $$ couldn't take the super-hopped-up-on-redpop off-the-wall crazyness. She is actually quite cute, picture a very large JRT with dalmation spots under the white fur (will try and post a pic later). She is super-intelligent, but cannot seem to focus for long. The trainer NN (=nicknamed) her Jazzmaniac. Although, in the last year (she's 4) she's begun to settle a little. (By that I mean my sister only has to take her out for a run 3-4X per day, then let her run in the huge backyard for another 2-3 hrs, then roughhouse with my dad for about an 1.5hrs!!... and yet if they have company she still has more then enough energy to run and jump on them for awhile!! :p )
Although my family is absolutly in love with her, she deffinetly isn't for a more laid back, appartement type person. My sister is only 15, and therefor has the energy to keep up with this dog. Not many ppl would though!!
And sure accidents happen, 2 unfixed animals can and do at times mate and create a weird mix. And there are ppl out there who have the patience and energy to love and care for the puppies (especially when 2 hyper-active breeds mix!!). But, why intentionally breed 2 incompatible dogs purely for looks? You are certainly not doing the dogs or puppies any favors, especially when few ppl have the dedication necessary to care for these pups and they end up either in the wrong type of families or PTS after too many returns.
October 4th, 2004, 10:42 PM
LMAO = Laugh my a** off. I recently found out that putting ROTF in front of that means Rolling On The Floor (so you get ROTFLMAO = "rolling on the floor, laughing my a** off). Gotta get me an internet shorthand thesaurus.
Hehehehe!!! That makes sense now! I used to just ignore those and get the jist of the post without figuring out what that ment! Thanks!!! :p :D
we've always hoped (and assumed...just for our own peace of mind) that mama was the Dal.
I'm with ya there. I wouldn't wanna know if the mama was the JRT. How sad! :(
October 5th, 2004, 07:24 AM
Sounds like horse breeding :D - As the saying goes you can make a small fortune in horses - you just have to start with a large fortune ;)
In some respects I suppose breeding your champion dogs makes "more" money than not breeding a Champion dog but showing them because you love the sport - so bottom line is that breeding does pay some of the expenses but if anyone is making a living off breeding alone (I don't mean people running kennels, grooming and training businesses and also breeding dogs) is a miller of some sort - some millers are not as bad as others (not all have dogs locked in small kennels in horrid conditions) - but I'd be leery of anyone breeding mix breeds and selling them for $1000... or anyone breeding a large number of rare or designer breeds. Because how can you know the temperament of 20 or more dogs - do they really know what they are breeding? - Not likely.
I don't agree that all mix breeders or breeders of non Champion pure breds are all bad though either - I think that a mix breeder/pet quality breeder that does all the health testing - carefully picks mates for pet qualities like temperament and only rarely breeds is not unethical... thought I'm sure this type is person is defiantly RARE. But then so are good breeders of champion pure bred dogs. Getting a pup from a person like that is certainly better that a place where there are 20 litters at any given time. I think these breeders have a place - some people don't want pure bred dogs and many can't handle the work required for many rescue dogs - some are great family pets but many have "issues" - that although not the dogs fault will cause them to be more work to train or otherwise work with and many people just don't have that ability.
I also think that the above described mix breeder is better than an pure breed breeder doing all the necessary health testing and breeding champions - but keeping the dogs in outdoor kennels all their lives because they have too many (I've heard of up to 30) to live in the house - but I don't think those people are what many here are describing as "ethical breeders" either.
The thing that bothered me was that website for one the mills that people are trying to shut down - they "Retired" their breeding stock and one little story was about a 5yr old great dane and they stated that she was now almost house broken!!!??? a 5 yr old dog not house broken... even if they do live in 'nice' kennels you would think they would get basic training and walked or otherwise get a chance to do their business outside... I just thought that was horrible.
October 5th, 2004, 11:04 AM
LR, if the ONLY reason a responsible breeder is in that business to better the breed, why do they charge an arm and a leg when selling the puppies?
Because if they went broke, they would have to give up their dogs. I'm sure that making enough to enable them to continue their hobby is desirable.
You're getting a lot for the "arm and a leg" price.
October 5th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Thanks Heelers Rock and SheriffMom!!!!I was wondering about the others ones too! I thought that I would not ask though as I thought I was the only one who did not know the abbreviations :o
October 5th, 2004, 02:08 PM
if the ONLY reason a responsible breeder is in that business to better the breed, why do they charge an arm and a leg when selling the puppies?
One more thing just the veterinarian bills can be staggering if for instance they have complications, shots , food, there time. Then health testing and it goes on and on
October 5th, 2004, 08:25 PM
You are asking people to believe the incredible
I don't know anyone who expects to make a living from a hobby. It's usually considered a sideline at best.
But of course you may know people who do make enough profits from hobbies to support themselves and not need any primary source of income. Congrats to them.
I can only suggest you go to a dog show and speak to reputable breeders and see what great profits they make. Maybe you will believe them.
October 6th, 2004, 07:48 AM
No - it's not that they make money - it's more that they cover costs - at least that is how it works with horses - and what the other are describing makes it all sound VERY familiar.
Years ago my family ran a breeding program - both breeding our own horses and standing a stallion for outside mares... we sold some of the foals and charged for stud service... so in a way we made money - but we did not cover the costs of buying, feeding, vetting, housing, trailering..etc all the horses involved. So no profit was made - but the hobby was made a little more manageable financially as it was bringing in some sort of revenue. Some people can make a living at horses, but most do not, and the people who do make a living at it work more than one aspect - usually breeding, training, boarding and trailering... I'm assuming that is similar for dog breeders - if they are make a living at it they are doing more than breeding - or doing something unethical. And with horses many who people run those type of businesses are barely breaking even - if that and live off a second income from some outside employment - I have a friend that runs a full boarding stable and if it weren't for her husband's high paying job - they wouldn't be able to do it.
Even with showing horses there is sometimes big money to be made - the shows my mother goes to you can win up to $500 per run with only a $20 entry fee... but if you take into account the truck and trailer needed to get there, the $$$$ spent on the horse that is capable of winning and the time put into getting the animal ready - there is no money being made... but that prize money sure helps support the obsession.
October 11th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Many people (including myself) have hobbies, but don't sell what they make. Therefore, no profit is made.
Breeding might be a hobby to some, but they are also selling. I did not say reputable breeders are making a fortune and banking their profits offshore. :rolleyes: All I said was they are making SOME profit, however small, even if it only supplements another income.
Dinah..first you were saying that breeders are ALL IN IT FOR THE MONEY..now you're saying that they are making SOME profit...I believe you're getting more than enough evidence and experience from people that know what a responsible breeder really cares for..and the truth is..its definately NOT about the money..do you have any idea how much it costs a reputable breeder to have a litter of puppies? The medical costs, the health testing, etc etc etc the list goes on.
I've given this site out in another post, but I will repost it here.
This lady is amazing..she is my perfect definition and example of a responsible and reputable breeder. Her dogs are absolutely amazing..and if you ever visit http://www.pitbullforum.com, you will know that she is highly respected because of her passion for the breed, and alot of people there know her personally...I've talked to her on numerous occassions, and she has admitted that she has in fact LOST money because of her breeding program..she has a job on the side..its not like that is her career..she does it because she cares about the breed...the amount of time and effort she puts into her dogs, and the breed in general, is absolutely heartwarming..but like I said, she doesn't expect a profit..just to cover all costs and make sure that pit bulls and amstaffs are "bettering" LOL if you'd like to call it ..every time she breeds her dogs.
I hope this has answered your questions and has given you some proof..you are more than welcome to email her..I'm sure she'll be happy to respond and give you some further proof.