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Premature Speuters?

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 09:42 AM
I am doing as much research as possible right now on premature speuters and finding a vet anywhere in Ontario that does them.
I would like to know the pro's and cons to it as well as any risks for a young pup to go through it.
Dont get me wrong I would much rather wait personally to do a spay or neuter on a large to giant breed dog but thanks to recent popularity in China with my breed and bizarre applications I have been recieving over the past few months I want to edumacate myself on this subject in the event I breed next year.
Having offered money back for the last pups proof of speuters and all have since followed through. I will say that the past 18 months have been quite stressful for me waiting and inquiring as to when it was going to be done.
We all know how registration means diddly to many people who are looking for a quick buck and I am toying with the idea of having the next litter done prior to leaving here.

Lets not turn this into a typical bash thread, and I know where all of you stand on the subject already so thanks anyways. What i am looking for is facts about it and where it can be done so I may contact a vet who does it to discuss it with them as well.
I was suprised to find out that many vets do not do them:shrug:

Winston
May 11th, 2011, 09:52 AM
You know I think it is becoming more common than we realise. When I was at the vet the last time a women had a 10 week old kitten she brought in. She had just gotten the kitten that week from the local SPCA.

She was bringing her in to have the vet verify that she was spayed because she too beleived that the kitten was way to young.

Here are some links I quickly googled...hope there is something useful there!


http://www.king.igs.net/~brica/esp.htm
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/early.html
http://www.webring.org/hub/reputablebreeder

mikischo
May 11th, 2011, 10:23 AM
If you take out the obvious reasons for spay/neuter which is of course prevention of pregnancies, the following is what I believe to be a very comprehensive report on the pros and cons strictly from a health standpoint.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 10:35 AM
This is exactly what I was looking for Thanks

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

Melinda
May 11th, 2011, 10:48 AM
my god!! I never realized getting Brina spayed put her at so many risks!! bone cancer??? "nearly" eliminates the risk of pyometra?? increases the risk of vaccination reactions? (which Brina has) and increases the risk of orthapedic problems?? who would have thought it, kinda makes me wonder if I did her any favor....How come we aren't told this when we're making the choice to spay or not? or are we just suppose to "assume" it makes them healthier?:shrug:

Goldfields
May 11th, 2011, 11:53 AM
Now that is really scary stuff,mikischo, particulartly for me after seeing the dreadul pain my poor darling Susie had with the bone cancer. I never want to see that again! But then I don't want another pyometra either. Maybe my next ACD pup will be another male. I don't believe in neutering my boys .

Love4himies
May 11th, 2011, 12:22 PM
Very good list, mikischo, however it doesn't address the non health risks such as wondering, fighting, spraying, that may get a pet killed/lost/thrown out of the house. If you are a responsible pet owner, may not be an issue, however for the average pet owner....

The vet who does the spueters for my local shelter does them at 3 lbs. For my fosters that is about 10-12 weeks old as they are fed raw and grow and build muscle at a much better rate than a commercial fed cat.

Longblades
May 11th, 2011, 12:40 PM
It's not clear to me what you mean by premature. There are paediatric neuters (neuter is gender neutral) and then there is pre-pubertal neuter, which is mostly what the Sanborn article linked above is concerned with.

I have articles on both in my list below. Mostly you can tell by the title which are the paediatric ones.



This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%20of%20Interest/new_views_on_neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Session%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control • www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_Health/Superlorin_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.


http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..? -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete”
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/dog_talk_the_radio_show/episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/artikler/art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu†

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-english/castration-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/Gosling/reprints/AABS05DogPersonalityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet – the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration – What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1123732;hl=castrate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? – Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs
Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD 10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-behavior-arousal-aggression-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/effects_of_neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O’Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993 See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001 American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/091201OvarianResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/OvaryExposureLongevityStudyfromAgingCellJournalbyD avidJWatersetalDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity: lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/male-dog-neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online: Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/dog-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online: Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O’Meara Pet Informed: http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/index.html

SamIam
May 11th, 2011, 01:00 PM
Erykah, can I ask what value you offered for proof of spay/neuter to be sent in a timely manner?

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 01:02 PM
Longblades THANK YOU
I will be going through all of those links you provided later on and bringing my concerns in to a vet ( which I have since found one local that will do it at 8 weeks) and by premature I mean to alter a litter prior to placement so young.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 01:14 PM
$200 was refunded, all my pups were males except for 2 ( so not all clearly) their owners basically had their neuter cost refunded, the one with the spay it covered most. I have the other female and time will tell for her spay status.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 01:20 PM
My reasoning for asking it is I just dont trust people. I figure if someone is getting a pup that is already altered it clearly would weed out those who are only interested in breeding. Thanks to the recent articles on 1.5 million dollar Tibetan Mastiffs, I have had people contact me asking to be put on a payment plan (this was more so for the $600 000 one) also how much for full breeding rights ( which I do not do, I will co own but never sell breeding rights) and so on.
Since education is working both ways and sneaky people are getting quite crafty at telling you everything you want to hear and how many ads are seen on places like kijiji ect for pups "Parents are registered puppies will not be" and so on.
This is still a long time away so the next while will be researching and talking to vets, especially when it pertains to a large breed like these guys.
No matter what negative I am seeing so far, it gets trumped by my thoughts of one of my pups ending up in a puppy mill somewhere. Which disturbs me to no end.

kathryn
May 11th, 2011, 01:55 PM
I'm just going to skip over any drama that may or may not be here and jump right into what I can tell you :thumbs up

From my person experience:

I have worked/volunteered in one spay/neuter clinic that does about 10,000 speuters annually and has been in operation for over 30 years and was one of the first major spay/neuter clinics in operation in the US. When I worked there my manager had been managing the clinic for apprx. 25 years and another employee had been there about the same amount of time.

I have volunteered in another spay/neuter clinic off site from a shelter that does about 5,000 speuters a year and has been in operation about ~10/15 years. They currently run a monthly cat clinic that has spayed over 4,000 cats in just the past 3 or 4 years at a cost of $25-$35 a cat including shots.

I have personally teched on.. well I can't even put a good number on it at this point, but over 20,000 spueters when you factor in the other times I've volunteered at places. The real number might even be higher than that.

The vets I have worked with have been licensed for upwards of 20 years and have mainly been spay/neuter vets the entire time (it is a booming business in NJ!) and they've each themselves performed over.. wow.. probably 50,000-100,000 speuters themselves between cats and dogs. The one vet possibly even more! He can easily knock out 50-100 speuters a day especially in cats...

Between my personal experience, the experience of certified technicians who have been doing this for longer than I have even been alive, dozens of veterinarians who have been doing this stuff since before I was even alive, other veterinarians who have recently graduated within the past 5-10 years who have been to prestigious schools such as University of Pennsylvania, the combined experience of 100+ volunteers and shelter workers who I've met over time.. we all have one thing we can all absolutely 100% agree on without a doubt- early age spay/neuter is the BEST option in the VAST majority of situations..

These are people who have been doing early age spay/neuter since 20+ years ago and have seen the long term impact themselves and I can not even tell you ONE example I have EVER heard from them where they said an animal (over 2 months of age) had been fixed too young and it caused issues later in life. NOT ONE. And this is between cats AND dogs AND rabbits and we have even spuetered guinea pigs and rats and other critters before too!


So while people can argue about which article is better and who's opinion is better, I am more than happy to share my experiences with you being that I have actually BEEN a spay/neuter tech and more than happy to share the opinions of the highly skilled veterinarians with you.

Dogs/Cats that are spayed at a younger age (2 months to 4 months) heal faster and better than ever before. They have such a reduced risk of cancers and other problems.

I have seen hundreds of cats and dogs from 1 1/2 years to 14 years come in to the clinic that have had HORRIBLE medical conditions from not being fixed. Males have testicular cancer, anal tumors, prostate problems, behavior problems you name it.. males have breast cancer, mammary tumors, uterine tumors, pyometras, prolapsed uterus's, prolapsed vaginas etc.. oh and those are just the things I have seen FIRST HAND, myself, in person.

So I don't care what any article may say.. I've never seen OR heard of any animal coming back with a long term problem from being fixed at "too young" of an age. As for the other way around, I have seen hundreds MYSELF that have come back with problems from NOT being fixed at a young age. My friends and I at the clinic have even taken pictures to document some of this stuff... not kidding!

Just my :2cents: , take it or leave it.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 02:10 PM
There actually isn't any drama going on here I dont think but thank you for your first hand experience kathryn.
What is the largest breed that you have seen or been involved with an early alteration?
Most of the stuff I am seeing is related to growth plates in larger breeds but nothing that is turning me off the idea.

Goldfields
May 11th, 2011, 10:07 PM
Longblades, that first link is terrific. Regarding male dogs for instance. They say that the incidence of prostatic neoplasms is from 0.2 to 0.6%, that they are almost always malignant adenocarcinomas and that castrated dogs are at an increased risk with the risk ranging from 2.4 to 4.3 times that of an intact dog. Then that the reported incidence of testicular cancer is 0.9%, malignency is considered low for all types of testicular cancer, therefore castration is curative. The mean age for both things was 10 years of age.
I won't ever be neutering a male unless it does develope testicular cancer later on in its life. Haven't the time to finish reading the article but I shall.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 10:20 PM
I am just going to think outloud here now, but I will say I am slowly leaning away from early alterations right now, but do want to discuss things more as I have said.

This concerns me since the biggest point of my guarantee is hips/elbows. I would like to know if these Beagles were from health tested lines or not, or if that would even matter in this case. Also quoted study was conducted in 1987 so mental note... find a newer study if possible.

In a study of beagles, surgical removal of the ovaries (as happens in spaying) caused an increase in the rate
of remodeling of the ilium (pelvic bone)48, suggesting an increased risk of hip dysplasia with spaying.
Spaying was also found to cause a net loss of bone mass in the spine 49.
Spay/neuter of immature dogs delays the closure of the growth plates in bones that are still growing,
causing those bones to end up significantly longer than in intact dogs or those spay/neutered after
maturity50. Since the growth plates in various bones close at different times, spay/neuter that is done after
some growth plates have closed but before other growth plates have closed might result in a dog with
unnatural proportions, possibly impacting performance and long term durability of the joints.
Spay/neuter is associated with a two fold increased risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture51. Perhaps this
is associated with the increased risk of obesity30.
Spay/neuter before 5 ½ months of age is associated with a 70% increased aged-adjusted risk of hip
dysplasia compared to dogs spayed/neutered after 5 ½ months of age, though there were some indications
that the former may have had a lower severity manifestation of the disease42. The researchers suggest “it
is possible that the increase in bone length that results from early-age gonadectomy results in changes in
joint conformation, which could lead to a diagnosis of hip dysplasia.”

Another study done in Spain in 2004 states the same thing, however still nothing about lineage of dogs used.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html
With large breeds, early castration often results in an animal with an insufficient breadth of chest for orthopedic health. Seeing the number of giant breeds that I do, I am very aware of the tragic effects of castration on young males. The narrow chests which result are inadequate to support the weight that so many neutered animals, male or female, put on.

Goldfields
May 11th, 2011, 11:00 PM
All very disturbing, a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation really. This bit...

Spay/neuter is associated with a two fold increased risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture51. Perhaps this
is associated with the increased risk of obesity30.

...makes me wonder if this is why so many cattle dogs in America do their cruciate ligaments? In future I'll be asking if the dogs are desexed and what condition they are in. Might be wrong but they do a lot with their dogs so I doubt it's obese dogs.

That's really bad about the narrow chests. I feel for you, as a breeder, Erykah. I know all about having to keep pups out of the wrong hands and it is worse for you with the dogs being more valuable. In fact, this morning I was thinking how very careful you must have to be that no-one has a chance to steal the TM's. So many things breeders need to weigh up though, it's not easy.

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 11:24 PM
I wont get into who could easily be stolen from here, but I will say, it would be quite interesting to see someone open their pen door with Marv in there.
My breed isn't really worth more than the next, its just fads in China right now, If you're wealthy and want to show it, you get the biggest TM you can where as here it is small breeds that are exploited more so as a fashion accessory than anything.

For a breed like the TM though, and their taking a long time to physically mature (females up to 3 years and males up to 7) I will admit that I am very leery on this idea as well now.

I think I will be looking at other ways to put my mind as ease if i do plan a breeding in the future. I think I will be developing a good bond with people on my wait list and really get a good feel for them. Would be nice to set up a network for home visits continent wide too.
Going to toss that idea out to some breeders both in my breed and others as well.

Goldfields
May 12th, 2011, 12:29 AM
Agree totally on the home visits, genuine buyers should not mind that. Anyone who did wouldn't get a pup off me. In fact on one round trip of two hundred miles I cancelled out two prospective homes for a pup. Third time lucky they say, she is the one who went to a guy who spent about $8,000 to get her over Evan's Syndrome later in her life, he is totally in love with her and just the best owner one could wish for.
Our cattle dogs don't fully mature till they are 3 and I don't think they get a brain till they are about 2. LOL. 7 is very late though, how long do TM's live for on average?

Longblades
May 12th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Goldfields - Yes, the information in the link is striking. I'm glad I discovered it. I am now heartily tired of hearing neuter will solve so many things as well as provide birth control, some of which is true, but no mention of harm. I found it quite disturbing that my Vet's recommendations to me on age to neuter changed after she learned I had read the first two articles. Not unsurprisingly she did not agree with every single item in the first link or the second but she agreed waiting till much later than 6 months was desireable. And then she had babies of her own and quit, something that makes me rather grit my teeth, as we were developing a good working relationship. All that money on education now not applied.

For more very, very startling information check out any of the links on behaviour that analysed the C-BARQ data. On another thread a while back we discussed this one.

erykah1310 - brings up some very good points on the assumptions made in the background data. Any good research will clarify and explain the background of the subjects and I believe this is where one has to research the research. Mostly what is available to us simple folk on the internet is the summaries of research. Yes, and dates of research. Very important.

Here's an idea. Can anyone find research that disputes any of the basic findings? Other than the disagreements already in the links? For instance that there is NOT more prostate cancer in neutered males than in intact? Or ortho disorders?

Some of what is available to us is pretty basic bean counting. In other words, this number of dogs had prostate cancer, such and such a number were neutered and such and such a number were intact. The outcome of a higher number being neutered is not really conclusive proof that neuter caused the prostate cancer in any way but then again, you have to wonder if there is not some kind of relationship.

erykah, are there not breeders of TM who write a neuter (boys) of NOT LESS than a certain age into their health guarantees? In my breed, Labrador Retriever, this is becoming more common and the age tends to range from one to two years. Other large breed breeders do this too. Some specify the girls must have a heat. I'm not a breeder but you are. Can you give us insight into what others with your breed do in this case?

I must say, it's so nice to be able to have a reasonable discussion on this.

marko
May 12th, 2011, 10:50 AM
Not sure if you want to hear my voice, buuut DR. Lee and I recorded a podcast on this very topic a couple of years back.

Feel free to take a listen:
http://www.pets.ca/blog/pet-podcast/early-spay-and-neuter-8-16-weeks-pet-podcast-40-interview-with-dr-lee/

thx - Marko

erykah1310
May 12th, 2011, 11:00 AM
TM's have a relatively long life span for such a large breed and are not plagued with many health problems as of yet, a few lines have HD but Elbow Dysplasia is quite unheard of but we all still screen for it. They live from 10-14 years however 18 year old TM's are not unheard of either.

I have never been on a spay/neuter contract with a TM so that is a good question to bring up to my mentors. In my contract I stated no less than a year. Most were done around 14 months.

As for home checks, most of my pups stayed in Canada, one is in Georgia, one in Hong Kong, a few in Alberta and a couple of them are in Ontario still ( locally as suprising as that is)

The people i have on my waiting list right now are 6 from Quebec (which somewhat worried me as they had contacted me right after the 1.5 million dollar dog sold in China and Quebec has a reputation for puppy mills) however first stage of the interview process did go well for them, still does not guarantee anything. One person on my waiting list is in Michigan ( this one I may home visit and shop while there) I had a great feeling off of this person but I just am untrusting, I wouldnt even count this one as on my waiting list yet because a lot for this person depends on which stud I go with, and my last one is in BC, first stage of interview process went so so, I have a feeling this person is fishing more so than anything for some reason.

Oh and there is the guy from Detriot who is not on the waiting list nor is his "friend" who also contacted me, want to read an application that will make your skin crawl and give you nightmares??? *shudders*

Back to the articles though,
What I am not liking is the lack of mention of control groups, and also, so many factors come into play when it comes to certain disorders right, I mean diet, excercise, environment, weight ect. My hip guarantee is longer than most because I truely do stand behind the lines I bred 110% however the amount of things that would void said guarantee such as obesity, poor nutrition ect is just as lengthy as my guarantee. So far so good though, I have recieved all my as required photo updates on the litter and everyone is looking spectacular to say the least. All in great condition, weights are where they should be and no one so far has shown any signs of problems.

erykah1310
May 12th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Marko, I really want to hear every educated or rational opinion on the subject, its a research thing and I can't look at it one sided right?
Thanks for digging that up, I will be listening to it.

Goldfields
May 12th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Longblades, I will hopefully find time to go through all your links soon. I sadly sent one of our beloved cattle dogs to the Bridge tonight and the other is nearly 15 years old, so in the forseeable future we may have to introduce and rear another pup. I think it will be a male so I NEED to do my homework. I haven't read anything (yet) that has persuaded me neutering is in a dog's best interests, although spaying can be a necessary evil. I much prefer my dogs totally natural, no cropping, docking, de-barking or de-sexing unless or until it is necessary.
I have a friend who trained as a Vet too then gave it way to raise her family, it's great that she's a happy mother and grandmother now but yes, seems an awful waste.
I won't be around tomorrow, shopping day.(sigh) but I look forward to seeing where this thread has gone by the time I can get back to it.

kathryn
May 12th, 2011, 11:15 AM
There actually isn't any drama going on here I dont think but thank you for your first hand experience kathryn.
What is the largest breed that you have seen or been involved with an early alteration?
Most of the stuff I am seeing is related to growth plates in larger breeds but nothing that is turning me off the idea.


Hehe okay I just didn't want to get myself in trouble because we all know I have a big mouth :loser: So I was just like LALALALALA NOT LISTENING NOT LISTENING as I scrolled through :p

Largest breed for early age alter? Hmm... great danes, mastiffs (multiple breeds), rottweilers, labs, akita's, pit bulls (most common of the 'larger breeds' around here), st. bernards, bernese mountain dogs... etc... and I can tell you that the younger guys and gals had done MUCH better immediately post-op AND in the long run throughout their lives! :thumbs up

See, the problem with even the larger breeds with altering them at a later time, the chances of post op problems are SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and compared to the supposed rate of 'long term problems' in larger breed dogs, you are looking at an INSANELY higher ratio of immediate severe post op problems in large breed dogs vs. the risk of possible long term problems (does that make sense?? sorry if it doesn't please let me know if you are like WTH are you talking about haha)

Basically, I see soooooooooooooooooooooo many problems immediately post op from full grown or near full grown large and giant breed dogs that it's not even a question in my mind. Scrotal hematoma's are by far the most common and can turn REALLY bad. I mean, think about it.. would you rather have a surgery when you are a toddler and not even realize it ever happened or wait to you are an adult and it turns into traumatic event?

I've also not ever heard in my personal experience of any of the vets I know ever seeing any of the bone related problems in large breed dogs :shrug: I mean I can ask but I'm sure they would have mentioned it at some point.

Goldfields
May 12th, 2011, 11:18 AM
Marko, I am on slow dial up so doubt if I'll have time to listen to that podcast, is there a transcript of it anywhere? I must say the very idea of early de-sexing is abhorrent to me but I am willing to look at both sides of the subject.

erykah1310
May 12th, 2011, 11:29 AM
If you could ask I would be greatful. And big mouthedness is quite alright when I'm asking for it ;)

This really is a hard subject to wrap my head completely around and I'm happy I decided to start looking into this now as apposed to while the pups are on the ground or on their way or something.
Its not an overnight descision that's for sure,
I am waiting to hear back from a Rottie breeder who has done these procedures for years on her dogs ( she is a vet as well) and hearing her experiences on the subject, from a health standpoint.
Morally, my mind keeps saying, Yes do it. But the need to know the facts and risks part of me is causing me some grief.
My main arguement to myself keeps coming back to "Its one less thing you have to worry about while pre screening" and since it is now time that I start solidifying homes on my wait list and stepping into phase 2 of the process I want to know my plan of action for them.
Luckily the cash return for proof of the procedure worked for the last litter and all paper work was sent to my vet from their vets for proof, but the anxiety I experienced during those months waiting and wondering was a hard. Even though I haven't seen those pups for well over a year (most of them) they are on my mind every day and I still worry about them as much as the first day I laid eyes on them via ultrasound.

Masha
May 12th, 2011, 11:53 AM
I've also not ever heard in my personal experience of any of the vets I know ever seeing any of the bone related problems in large breed dogs :shrug: I mean I can ask but I'm sure they would have mentioned it at some point.

When we were doing research on when to neuter our guy (GSD) we spoke with several vets (from different clinics) and they all said 'with a large breed dog, unless there is a behavioural reason or other specfic reason, we would recommend waiting untill he is 1'... they all cited letting the bones form as the key reason why we should wait...

Rottielover
May 12th, 2011, 12:13 PM
PM me where they are located in QC maybe I can arrange a home visit :)

ScottieDog
May 12th, 2011, 12:32 PM
First, to Goldfields, my deepest condolences on your loss. It hurts.

I am sitting here with my 9 month-old pup figuring out the best age for him to be neutered. I know I am responsible so no chance at breeding. I want what is best for him. I do have an agreement with the breeder that he will be neutered. My vet told me that unless there is a health reason to do the procedure early, his clinic will not neuter until at least age 6 months.

I shared the link that mikischo posted with my vet. There are some things in that that horrify me. Most importantly, the slight increased chance of urinary cancers. My breed--Scottish Terriers--develop transitional cell carcinoma (TCC) at a rate of 18%. This is not a factor I wish to elevate. I also plan to do agility classes with my pup when he is old enough and the increased risks of cruciate ligament damage is also a factor. After much discussion, research I've decided to neuter at or slightly after one year of age. My vet is OK with this and I've shared articles with my breeder so she can understand that I want what is best for my pup, and as erykah1310 understands, her pup too.

My rescue Scottie was a genetic mess, so I may be factoring things in that should not be considered. She was spayed before 6 months of age. She was a good inch and a half taller than my unneutered male dog. Not a big deal, but these are short dogs. She had knee and elbow problems. She had recurrent UTIs, needed life-saving emergency spleen removal surgery due to splenic hemangioma, and finally TCC of the bladder. All issues the article mentions. As you can understand, I am very concerned about health issues. Again, I want to mention that my sweet rescue that I loved and adored with all my heart was probably the product of a damned puppy mill, so I know this compounded her health issues.

I will be spending several hours with the links to the articles and also listening to the pod-cast Marko has linked to. Spaying and neutering is very important in controlling the pet population and I do feel it is very important. I want to do what is best for my dog when factoring in his breed and the activities we will be doing. There is some wonderful information here.

Longblades
May 12th, 2011, 12:37 PM
I just listened to the podcast and learned it considers early age neuter to be ages 8 to 16 weeks for cats and dogs. And usual age neuter is 5 to 6 months. Certainly that latter is earlier still than any I have heard for my breed, but be what it may, it's a frame of reference. I was all set to continue my belief that early neuter is mostly a rescue/shelter consideration till Dr. Lee said how many purebred dogs were turning up in shelters in his area. Scary. Mind you, I wonder how it is known they are purebred, are they chipped or tattooed? Still, I guess they look purebred and that is scary. Is it the same here? In the north, where, don't get upset, but our cold I think tends to limit the life of uncared for animals?

See, the problem with even the larger breeds with altering them at a later time, the chances of post op problems are SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and compared to the supposed rate of 'long term problems' in larger breed dogs, you are looking at an INSANELY higher ratio of immediate severe post op problems in large breed dogs vs. the risk of possible long term problems (does that make sense?? sorry if it doesn't please let me know if you are like WTH are you talking about haha)Kathryn, I understand this, I think, but do you have numbers to back it up? And can you make clear what it is you mean by a "later time"? What age is "later" to you? And what are the complications and problems, please? I'd like to understand better.

14+kitties
May 12th, 2011, 01:31 PM
I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

TeriM
May 12th, 2011, 01:43 PM
A very interesting topic :thumbs up. In recent years I have become much more aware of "natural health" so this is something I am also researching for our new adddition that will join us this summer. I really believe that Riley would have benefited from a later neuter. I had him done around 7-8 months and he continued to grow until he was close to three years old. He definately does not have the best structure and although that is breeding/size I think delaying the neuter would have helped.

I have a female pup coming in August. She is a mid-size breed and most of the females in her line with raw feeding do not come into their first heat until almost 13-14 months. My plan at the moment would be wait until she is a year and hopefully beat the first heat. If not I will be able to manage a heat and I am also considering waiting until after the first heat if that is what my researching proves better. I think there are some benefits to not spaying for a few years but honestly I don't want to deal with heats unless I can be convinced there is a really good benefit.

Erykah, at what age do your girls usually come into their first heat? Can you possibly set the contracts to spay close to that time? If demand is that high for your pups I would also consider keeping at least $500 for the spay/neuter return as an incentive.

I would be happy to do a home visit for you out here (Vancouver) if that would help. I also actually video taped my home/street for my breeder so she could see where the pup would live. Luckily for me she is good friends with my trainer so my trainer vouched for me. Yes, someone could video someplace that isn't their home but then check google to see if the outer appearance of the home matches to "street view".

TeriM
May 12th, 2011, 01:44 PM
I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

Agreed, this is definately a part of the equation :thumbs up.

Longblades
May 12th, 2011, 01:57 PM
I just found this page which provides links to several articles on paediatric neuter. Some are in my list, many are new. Unfortunately I cannot access most of the new ones but perhaps someone else can.

http://earlyspayneuter.blogspot.com/#online

erykah1310
May 12th, 2011, 03:02 PM
I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

This is exactly why I want to know so much more about the beagles in that study. Very good point 14+ and those reasons listed is why I have heard of many breeders putting extremely strict restrictions and clauses into health guarantees. Not that they would not honor them, just that the new owners also play a HUGE role in development of a growing pup.
Things that are known genetic such as HD also can come about from various environmental factors as well.

SamIam
May 14th, 2011, 11:57 AM
It's not clear to me what you mean by premature. There are paediatric neuters (neuter is gender neutral) and then there is pre-pubertal neuter, which is mostly what the Sanborn article linked above is concerned with.

I have articles on both in my list below. Mostly you can tell by the title which are the paediatric ones.

This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.

Wow, Longblades, what an extensive list you have provided... I've barely made a scratch on it. In the past I have always been a strong supporter of neutering males preventive /corrective wrt behaviour. (Never before 5-7 months though.) Now I feel guilty, have I been taking the easy way out, day-surgery rather than more effort into training? I knew a only a couple of the risks for spaying females, but NONE of the ones for boys. This will definitely change how easily I make that decision next time it comes up!

LavenderRott
May 14th, 2011, 01:29 PM
I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not. If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding. Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

erykah1310
May 15th, 2011, 12:41 AM
I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not.
I have read this several times and have no idea what you are trying to get at? I have looked at this from several angles and still can not wrap my head around this.
Since I have a "rare"breed somehow only the best homes would be contacting me? This makes no sense, and how would anyone think that it would? In case you have not realized over the past couple years there have been two extremely high priced TM's sold in China, thanks to media and internet emphasizing how expensive these dogs were purchased for, and subsequently this has attracted many people to the breed for no other reason other than $$$$.


If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding.
No where in anything I have written have I even mentioned anything about people contacting me to breed???:confused: Frankly, I don't feel the need to discuss much about my tentative breeding plans, but it is a toss up between 2 studs and a lot of that will depend greatly on this summer. If you want to know more, PM me, this is off topic and I see no point in you making that statement.

Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.
I am talking about pet home pups:confused: I dont see where the notion of narrowing the gene pool is coming from honestly

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

I'm quite curious if you have actually read this thread with comprehension of the point of it at all. But just to refresh:
I would like to know the pro's and cons to it as well as any risks for a young pup to go through it.
I am stating here that I am not familiar at all with it and am looking for information on it.


We all know how registration means diddly to many people who are looking for a quick buck and I am toying with the idea of having the next litter done prior to leaving here.

Having not known anything about the procedure or any of the "cons" that went along with it until recieving many very helpful links and resources here, I was "toying" with the "idea" of doing it.

What i am looking for is facts about it and where it can be done so I may contact a vet who does it to discuss it with them as well.
I was suprised to find out that many vets do not do them

I really don't feel like going back and explaining every little thing I have typed on the subject but I just want to make it clear that I started this thread to find information, therefore not knowing about the increased risk for cancers in pups who are spayed or neutered young at the time of this thread being started and even after reading some studies, I would like to have a few answers to questions on the studies that I have. I see no harm in trying to inform myself as best as I can about something before deciding anything, and at that time what harm is there in considering anything when I am the type of person who is willing to learn and not afraid to ask opinons or questions on something I know little about?
Again, asking for information and looking to find a vet that i could discuss it with.

SamIam
May 15th, 2011, 01:01 AM
I just thought of something. Early spay/neuters is something puppy/kitten-selling pet stores have started doing. If you have a local store that does it, you could find out what vet they use: that would be a vet who has lots of experience to share on the subject.

erykah1310
May 15th, 2011, 01:10 AM
I have found one local vet who does them, I called and asked a few questions but I felt they had biased information. According to them there were absolutely no cons to having it done.
Then when discussing it with both my vets who do not preform the surgery they had a great deal of concerns other than cancers for their reasoning behind not offering it.

It appears to be a hot topic amoung vets, breeders, pet owners and the like.

I will continue to research it, but have been a little "turned off" the idea for various reasons the more I read. However, I'm quite interested in learning as much about it as I can to make an educated and solid descision on whether or not I agree with it.

SamIam
May 15th, 2011, 01:56 AM
Absolutely no cons, well I guess believing that will help them sleep at night, but it wouldn't give me much confidence in them, there are always pros and cons to weigh.

The people who come back for a second pup I trust; the rest I hold my breath, despite careful screening and solid contract, will they actually have the spay/neuter done by the deadline? I considered early spay/neuters a couple years ago and could not accept the risks. Their size (more an issue with small breeds) and age make them more delicate, their immune system isn't fully developed, and they are less tolerant of many medications. It also changes their growth pattern (can add a couple inches of height and end in a less-sturdy shape - straighter joints). My contract actually has a minimum and maximum age when the surgery may be done.

14+kitties
May 15th, 2011, 07:36 AM
I've PM'd Dr Lee about this thread. Truly, he is probably the most informed on this subject of anyone on this forum.
I believe there have been threads done before about this very subject. I also believe it was discussed then that the increased incidences of cancers discussed in most of those studies at the time was so minimal as to make it almost inconsequential. When I have more time I'll see if I can track those threads down. I know they were done a couple of years ago. Maybe things have changed since then. :shrug:
:offtopic:When HS, vets who adopt pets from their offices (my vet is one), and the very few reliable pet stores (normally they work through HS), s/n pets before adopting they do it to aid the over burgeoned pet population. They are responsible enough to realize there is a huge problem and are doing something to help it.
We have one store in our area that has finally stopped selling kittens and designer dogs after years and years of doing so. These pets were sold intact. I hate to even consider the number of unwanted cats that were added to this area because of that one store being irresponsible.

Goldfields
May 15th, 2011, 10:50 PM
I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not. If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding. Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

LavenderRott, I totally get what you are saying to Erykah. When I got into ACDs 35 years ago every kennel seemed to have different bloodlines, slightly different types, in fact I could just look at a dog back then and say predominantly such and such a line, with maybe this other one as well, and be correct. Then judges started favoring one line above others, so everyone bred, and line bred, and in bred (ad nauseam) to that line, till now you are battling to find an outcross. Same thing happened with a red dog a friend sold that went interstate, he was used so often that the same thing applies up there. At least with breeding stock sold to responsible breeders, people as careful and caring about that breed as Erykah is herself, there is less danger to this rare breed. Especially if they go far afield.I really think there are two types of breeders within the show scene, those that go with the current fad because they want to win, and those that stick to the Standard religiously and have the breed's welfare at heart. They are not that hard to identify. Breeding to supply pets(and if they are desexed that is all they are) is really frowned on by our ANKC. When we become members or renew our membership we have to agree to the Code of Ethics for breeding and 20.1.12 says
A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet and commercial market.

As for this, LavenderRott....
As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

Exactly! I think there is this "It won't happen to MY dog" attitude, but it could and sometimes does.

Goldfields
May 15th, 2011, 11:05 PM
First, to Goldfields, my deepest condolences on your loss. It hurts.

.

Thank you, it seems to get harder the older I get too for some reason . :(

Very interesting post and I can certainly understand you leaving it later to neuter your dog. It's not a case of what might suit one, will suit all, that's for sure.

SamIam
May 16th, 2011, 12:20 AM
Breeding to supply pets(and if they are desexed that is all they are) is really frowned on by our ANKC. When we become members or renew our membership we have to agree to the Code of Ethics for breeding and 20.1.12 says
A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet and commercial market.

Sustainable breeding, though, only needs to replace each breeding dog. Each female could produce one daughter, and possibly also one son. But the average litter size for all breeds is greater than two, so even if each male and each female produce only one litter in their lifetimes, some of their puppies will not be bred.

Take a Tibetan Mastiff pair with a litter of 10 puppies. Let's choose the best 2 male and 2 female puppies and wait until they mature, pass health exams, and compete in conformation and performance and then choose which two will carry on their parents' bloodline. That leaves 6 who will go to pet-only homes from the age of ~2 months.

If all 10 are kept as potential breeders, then all 10 owners must be willing to tolerate heats or male behaviours, all of them must be able and willing to prevent unplanned litters, all of them must be willing to accept an 80% chance their dog will not be approved for breeding, all of them must be willing and able to become breeders and all that that implies if they are the 20% chosen.

It may be a nice dream, but it's not practical, not in this society anyway. Not to mention there would be a need for bigger show ring for the goldens! No matter how good your dogs are, the puppies will vary in temperament and conformation. You can select your future champions or at least narrow it down, and without the slightest hint of unethical intentions or actions, you have produced some pet-only dogs, and there are certainly plenty of wonderful pet-only homes that do not qualify as breeding homes. Should they be spayed/neutered at 2 months, 6 months, 18 months or never? Open for debate. But most of them should never be bred, even in a breed that is increasing in numbers/popularity.

Goldfields
May 16th, 2011, 04:32 AM
Basically what the ANKC is asking for Sam(I think) is that we don't breed unless it is to retain something for showing or breeding, otherwise that does qualify as catering to the pet market of course. They're aware of over population too. If we go by that, there is a limit to how many dogs a breeder/exhibitor wants, so less pups get born , which is a good thing.
I have never bred a litter without I intended to keep something. I wouild definitely never breed to just sell all the pups, which is why I didn't have that many litters. :) This is off topic though, I want to hear more of the pros and cons of de-sexing them early . Had a visitor today but I want to go back ASAP and follow up on Longblade's links for a start. This visitor today was anxious to neuter her GSD pup early thinking it would help with his behaviour but I think she could learn a lot that would help if she read the advice on training that is offered here instead.

SamIam
May 16th, 2011, 11:45 AM
The development of male behaviour happens primarily at sexual maturity (6-12 months) and social maturity (24-26 months). If the unwanted behaviours begin and the dog is then neutered immediately, before they become habit, the neuter should be successful towards eliminating the problem. The longer you wait, the stronger the habit becomes and the less likely you are to be able to change it with a neuter. Only the individual owner can determine if they have what it takes to control (or tolerate) behaviour problems that come up, but if they decide to wait past 6 months for his neuter, they should be prepared to make that decision quickly.

Goldfields
May 16th, 2011, 09:23 PM
She admits herself to not praising him(or her other animals), Sam, treating the pup like a push button robot, expecting him to do exactly what she says, but no rewards, trying force rather than getting him to focus. I'm sorry but neutering does not seem like a quick fix for this dog. He's nice, he's very intelligent, he deserves a whole lot better, and she knows it, and I'll have to keep reminding her I think.

SamIam
May 16th, 2011, 11:16 PM
The behaviours I would consider neutering a possible remedy for are indoor marking, the tendency to wander, and male-male aggression - those are the three that come to mind, I may be missing an important one or two. At this point it sounds more like your friend is dealing with basic manners and obedience, so you may just have to sneak in some demos of how you work your own dogs next time she comes by.

Goldfields
May 16th, 2011, 11:54 PM
Well, if he wanders in this sheep area he would get shot but I doubt that will happen, she has good fences and escape proof dog yards. Sounds like he is a bit unruly at obedience, wanting to play, or fight if another dog wants that, but the only way he focusses on her, even for a reward, is to open his mouth sort of sideways for the titbit to be put in while still intently watching the distraction. No focus whatsoever. My sister will help her with the obedience aspect, and I might pass on those links on early speutering to her.

SamIam
May 17th, 2011, 12:05 AM
How old is he?

Goldfields
May 17th, 2011, 09:15 AM
Don't quote me on this but I think about 5 1/2 months.

Goldfields
May 17th, 2011, 09:18 AM
5 1/2 months I think.

Longblades
May 17th, 2011, 09:46 AM
http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf

Goldfields, above is the link from my list of the data analysing C-BARQ that presents some shocking results on behaviours in neutered versus intact dogs. I actually got this link from this board some time ago. Anyway, you might want to show it to your friend. Some of it is very, very surprising and a lot is quite contradictory to what we've all been told before. It's very detailed and there are some striking differences when broken down into breed and gender specifics so I would advise reading more than just the summary.

Now, unfortunately, It does not seem that GSDs were one of the breeds studied. As it was a study of breeds used for service dogs of one kind or another I find this strange but I don't see any GSD stats there, so, given the variations by breed a caution to transposing results to your friend's GSD. Worth a read just for the shock value though, I think.

Here is a tidbit of fascinating information produced by this study: SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ROLL IIN & EAT
FECES MORE OFTENIt's on page 10. Who would have thought? Who would even wonder? Personally I have not had scatological concerns with my dogs so this just astounded me. I mean, who would even think to ask the question?

ETS: oops, I do see a GSD face in the Touch Sensitivity section.

SamIam
May 17th, 2011, 01:10 PM
At 5-6 months it is an excellent time for her to consider neutering and get an understanding of what changes to expect over the next few months and how to handle them. That behaviour study seems to indicate that her best source of information is the breeder she got the dog from, and other shepherd owners, rather than just the general population.

Longblades, 2 separate surveys were done, one of those 11 breeds by kennel club members, and one online of random dog owners including 17 breeds with significant contribution (photos of the 17 on page 8). The way the graphs are presented makes some of that presentation a very hard read to know what is/isn't significant. When the bottom of the graph says .2 and the top says .7, I assume that's 20% and 70%, but what does it mean when it runs from .6 to 1.5?

Here are some points to consider:
Is touch sensitivity more common in desexed animals due to neutering, or are touch sensitive animals more likely to be desexed due to temperament testing? Are intact dogs more likely to be properly socialized and desensitized due to handling needs for show than desexed pets?

If desexed springers become more prone to fear or aggression and huskies and westies less so, can we make a generalization based upon the typical level of sumbmission and confidence within a breed? Without sex and breed broken down simultaneously I'm not comfortable accepting their findings, though.

Would the kennel-club survey be more likely to have late-done desexing including previously-bred adults versus younger in the random survey that included unregistered and mixed-breed dogs?

Longblades
May 17th, 2011, 03:07 PM
At 5-6 months it is an excellent time for her to consider neutering and get an understanding of what changes to expect over the next few months and how to handle them. That behaviour study seems to indicate that her best source of information is the breeder she got the dog from, and other shepherd owners, rather than just the general population.

Longblades, 2 separate surveys were done, one of those 11 breeds by kennel club members, and one online of random dog owners including 17 breeds with significant contribution (photos of the 17 on page 8). The way the graphs are presented makes some of that presentation a very hard read to know what is/isn't significant. When the bottom of the graph says .2 and the top says .7, I assume that's 20% and 70%, but what does it mean when it runs from .6 to 1.5?Here are some points to consider:
Is touch sensitivity more common in desexed animals due to neutering, or are touch sensitive animals more likely to be desexed due to temperament testing? Are intact dogs more likely to be properly socialized and desensitized due to handling needs for show than desexed pets?

If desexed springers become more prone to fear or aggression and huskies and westies less so, can we make a generalization based upon the typical level of sumbmission and confidence within a breed? Without sex and breed broken down simultaneously I'm not comfortable accepting their findings, though.

Would the kennel-club survey be more likely to have late-done desexing including previously-bred adults versus younger in the random survey that included unregistered and mixed-breed dogs?kennel club members: Sorry, where did you get that? It appears to contradict what is available on the C-BARQ site, where the idea is presented that more than just kennel club members were asked to contribute. As for the random sample, yes it does say that. I did one. It was interesting.

Graphs: Sorry again but I'm afraid I don't follow you. Which page are you on when you note this? http://www.nyx.net/~tmacfarl/STAT_TUT/mann_whi.ssi Maybe this would help. I confess, though I studied statistics years ago, I'm going to have to review this.

As for your other points, yes, we discussed some of this before when a link was posted. I think it was made clear in the study that the reasons for neutering were a question and those unwanted behaviours are not shown as a reason for neutering, at least they do not appear to be a choice. Nevertheless I agree they could have import.

My own personal query is, since neuter is often quoted to us a a magic bullet that will fix many problems perhaps some of those bad scores result from owners believing it and slacking off on the training? Conversely those owners of intact dogs, possibly believing they were in for a harder time with undesireable behaviours not only did not slack off but increased their training efforts? As C-BARQ itself says, more work needs to be done.

The main point for me is, this is a start. This is the only scientific data I can find on the subject. Much of what we rely on now is anecdotal. And I have to say, I never heard or read or was told any anecdotal information at all about poop eating having anything to do with neuter, one way or the other. :) That one just floors me.

SamIam
May 17th, 2011, 03:40 PM
Page 4 Respondents: 1,552 dog owners (breed club members)
Page 8 Respondents: 3,593 dog owners (open-access to C-BARQ website)

The first graph (page 6) goes from .2 to .7 and putting the minimum at .2 instead of 0 makes the difference look more significant than it is.
Begs for food (page 7) goes from 0 to 2. What does it mean? 120% of intact females beg for food and 150% of spayed ones?
Dog-directed aggression/fear (page 8) The only way I know which breeds go with which graphs is the photos.
Owner-directed aggression (page 9) Just caution to read the numbers as an increase from 5% to 10% is less important than an increase from, say, 35% to 70%.

My own personal query is, since neuter is often quoted to us a a magic bullet that will fix many problems perhaps some of those bad scores result from owners believing it and slacking off on the training? Conversely those owners of intact dogs, possibly believing they were in for a harder time with undesireable behaviours not only did not slack off but increased their training efforts? As C-BARQ itself says, more work needs to be done.
A very valid question!

My own anecdotal accounts of poop-eating include only dogs who began the behaviour as puppies (<8 weeks), and none of them neutered at that time.:shrug:

I'd like to see the journal article (I assume there is one?) or better yet, their raw data.:D

Longblades
May 17th, 2011, 04:03 PM
Ah, gotcha on page 4. I missed that. Confusing I agree as the icons on their own C-Barq site appear to give categories that might not necessarily all be kennel club, or breed club members.

I found a couple of article, not sure off the top of my head if they were JAVMA or not, but I found them by googling C-BARQ. Anything I found is in my list.

Oh my, just googled JAVMA and CBARQ together and got 3 pages, though many in the list seem to be the same thing.

It sure looks like the raw data is available because some of people using it are not with the orginal group but you probably have to approach through a University or some such to get access to it.