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The Litter That Was Supposed To Be

SamIam
May 9th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Eight weeks ago, my dog was diagnosed with pyometra, just days after she had been bred. For a breeder, that is a devastating diagnosis: in a matter of days, you switch from a healthy dog and dreams of her future puppies, to dealing with a sick loved one and the loss of the dream as well. Most vets play the odds, and when they find pyometra will spay the dog immediately. The rare vet who tries to choose the best candidates for antibiotic therapy will probably not choose you and your dog. If you are given that chance, your dog will still probably get worse instead of better, and need an emergency spay within a few days. Even if your dog does respond well to the antibiotics, scarring to the uterus may prevent her ever becoming pregnant in the future or carrying a litter to term. If she is already bred and pregnant when she develops the infection, chances of holding that pregnancy are next to none.

so


WHY?


you might ask


is this post


in the


pet photography


forum


???


Here they are, 4 little miracles.
73780

Shaykeija
May 9th, 2011, 11:38 PM
How wonderful...So how old will they be when you start showing them? I imagine champion Chi's are in high demand. I love seeing the momma dogs show pictures. When are you going to post them?

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 12:28 AM
How wonderful...So how old will they be when you start showing them? I imagine champion Chi's are in high demand. I love seeing the momma dogs show pictures. When are you going to post them?

LOL They were only just born, I'm looking forward to exciting dates like opening eyes, chewing mom's ears, and their first pees on grass. Haha. You just want to see me in the background and an identifying placard in the foreground. Not going to happen.

Shaykeija
May 10th, 2011, 01:02 AM
Hmm not really interested in you...but that is OK if you won't post a championship picture. I am proud of my Tyra's show days. She did herself proud. Her whole blood line can be traced back for ever it seems. All her babies that showed, became champions as well. Her daddy was shown and used for stud all over the world.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n158/Shaykeija/tyra1.jpg

AM.CAN.CH. WENRICK'S INSIDE HOLLYWOOD

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 01:28 AM
No there was just someone on here weeks ago desperate to find out where I lived and shopped and it just left me ... shall we say ... internet cautious. Tyra is beautiful! Is she the same dog in your avatar picture?

Shaykeija
May 10th, 2011, 01:32 AM
No that was Sophie, she passed away in 2007. Her little heart caught a virus and enlarged her heart, I couldn't save her. SHe passed away in my arms...

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 01:43 AM
Aww, that's so sad.

Melinda
May 10th, 2011, 03:52 AM
what sweet babies...so how is mom?? did/does the vet spay her right after pups?...will she be ok? will we see more pics as the pups grow up? *L*

Goldfields
May 10th, 2011, 05:36 AM
If that's the order they were born, Sam, mum must have got tired and didn't bother with the white on the last one's face. LOL. They're beautiful babes. I can smell the puppy breath from here.

Shay, is that you in the photo with your dog? Nice to put a face to the name if it is. :) It's a very glamorous Shih Tzu. I must check and see if her sire has litters registered here, what is his name? Is he Canadian or American?

shirley1011
May 10th, 2011, 08:29 AM
LOL They were only just born, I'm looking forward to exciting dates like opening eyes, chewing mom's ears, and their first pees on grass. Haha. You just want to see me in the background and an identifying placard in the foreground. Not going to happen.

Why the paranoia of where you live. I am proud of where I live in the boonies of Oshawa.

You certainly posted for days 24/7 and then poof you were gone....:shrug: along with many members.......

Lovely puppies btw.

Longblades
May 10th, 2011, 08:51 AM
Why the paranoia of where you live. I am proud of where I live in the boonies of Oshawa.
As of right now 94 people have viewed this thread and I'm going to be poster #11. I can see why a breeder would be leery of having their exact whereabouts known. I stupidly frightened the breeders who own a training place I left my dumbbell at on Sat. when I wheeled in on Sun. to pick it up without notifying them first. Puppies on the big gated front porch, I could easily have grabbed one.

Cutie-pie puppies. I wish I could get a photo of a dog a new neighbour swears is a purebred Chi studdog. He doesn't look much like the little bit I can see of your Momma. Are there two types of Chi? Hers is quite a bit bigger than the one who comes to training. I'd have guessed hers is part terrier of some kind. Sorry, didn't mean to highjack.

Congrats on a successful outcome.

pbpatti
May 10th, 2011, 09:04 AM
SamIam, they are adorable, those little pink noses...I hope that Mom is ok now, I do not know anything about Pyometra but I imagine that the last eight weeks have ben very difficult. Congratulations and more pics as they grow please :lovestruck:..patti

hazelrunpack
May 10th, 2011, 09:08 AM
It's amazing how you can tell individuals apart, even at that age! What sweet little faces! :lovestruck: Just adorable, SIA!!

Shaykeija
May 10th, 2011, 09:33 AM
If that's the order they were born, Sam, mum must have got tired and didn't bother with the white on the last one's face. LOL. They're beautiful babes. I can smell the puppy breath from here.

Shay, is that you in the photo with your dog? Nice to put a face to the name if it is. :) It's a very glamorous Shih Tzu. I must check and see if her sire has litters registered here, what is his name? Is he Canadian or American?

Not me..lol one of the owners... her daddy just passed away..I posted his picture in Pets that passed away. His full pedigree name is there. BIS BISS World Int Can Am Mex It Pol Lux Ch Wenrick's Hollywood Hit ROM 1997-2011

He was Canadian, but was shown an bred internationally...

Love4himies
May 10th, 2011, 09:52 AM
SamIam, they are adorable, those little pink noses...I hope that Mom is ok now, I do not know anything about Pyometra but I imagine that the last eight weeks have ben very difficult. Congratulations and more pics as they grow please :lovestruck:..patti

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=918

It is a potentially life threatening infection.

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 10:21 AM
what sweet babies...so how is mom?? did/does the vet spay her right after pups?...will she be ok? will we see more pics as the pups grow up? *L*

Mom and the pups are all doing wonderfully. When a dog has a c-section, you would usually have her spayed at the same time to avoid a second surgery later, but unless there's an emergency, you don't open up a dog right after she gives birth. At that time her uterus is enormous and very vascular, making it a higher-risk surgery; and as well it is harder on a dog to suckle puppies when she has an incision healing down the middle of her belly. Her infection cleared up ages ago, she whelped naturally, and is apparently perfectly healthy, so no reason to spay at this time. She should be just fine, but (of course) my vet and I will continue to keep a close eye on her.

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 10:25 AM
If that's the order they were born, Sam, mum must have got tired and didn't bother with the white on the last one's face. LOL. They're beautiful babes. I can smell the puppy breath from here.

Yes it is. And yes, pup #4 was born bum first, so that dark little nose was the very last part, I guess she just ran out of white paint, lol.

Melinda
May 10th, 2011, 10:42 AM
Mom and the pups are all doing wonderfully. When a dog has a c-section, you would usually have her spayed at the same time to avoid a second surgery later, but unless there's an emergency, you don't open up a dog right after she gives birth. At that time her uterus is enormous and very vascular, making it a higher-risk surgery; and as well it is harder on a dog to suckle puppies when she has an incision healing down the middle of her belly. Her infection cleared up ages ago, she whelped naturally, and is apparently perfectly healthy, so no reason to spay at this time. She should be just fine, but (of course) my vet and I will continue to keep a close eye on her.

thats interesting! thanks for answering, she's a lucky mom!!

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 10:44 AM
As of right now 94 people have viewed this thread and I'm going to be poster #11. I can see why a breeder would be leery of having their exact whereabouts known. I stupidly frightened the breeders who own a training place I left my dumbbell at on Sat. when I wheeled in on Sun. to pick it up without notifying them first. Puppies on the big gated front porch, I could easily have grabbed one.

Cutie-pie puppies. I wish I could get a photo of a dog a new neighbour swears is a purebred Chi studdog. He doesn't look much like the little bit I can see of your Momma. Are there two types of Chi? Hers is quite a bit bigger than the one who comes to training. I'd have guessed hers is part terrier of some kind. Sorry, didn't mean to highjack.

Congrats on a successful outcome.

Well hopefully you scared them into keeping a better eye on their puppies!!!

People will throw out three terms with chihuahuas, deer type, apple head, and tea cup. None of these is a specific type that you can get a true-breeding line for. Chihuahuas vary in size from 1 pound to 20 - although it would be rare to get a 1-2 pounder and a 10-20 pounder in the same litter, it is very common for the smallest puppy in the litter to mature half the size of the largest. Their shape varies from long and lean to compact and cobby to very dwarfish and bobble-headed - and again, although you wouldn't likely see two extremes in the same litter, you do get some variety. Ears and ear placement very variable. And coat type, even though there are two distinct types, short and long, there is a great variation in the texture and fullness of the coat, and I have even seen a wire-haired one who otherwise appeared to be purebred!

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 11:00 AM
SamIam, they are adorable, those little pink noses...I hope that Mom is ok now, I do not know anything about Pyometra but I imagine that the last eight weeks have ben very difficult. Congratulations and more pics as they grow please :lovestruck:..patti

The first couple days was the worst, but the infection caused drastic behavioural changes in her, such as excessive drinking and no appetite. Once she was acting healthy, I was fairly confident our frequent rechecks at the vet wouldn't find the infection returned. I have to admit to a few nervous days in the middle when she had started gaining weight but wasn't confirmed pregnant yet, though!

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 11:03 AM
It's amazing how you can tell individuals apart, even at that age! What sweet little faces! :lovestruck: Just adorable, SIA!!

LOL I was thinking the same thing, as one fawn after another was born, at least they have different shapes and markings on their faces!

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Thanks for your compliments everyone!!!

Goldfields
May 10th, 2011, 11:30 AM
It's a splendid outcome, and what fun you have ahead of you, SIA. I'll admit to being a bit green with envy. :)

14+kitties
May 10th, 2011, 11:59 AM
As of right now 94 people have viewed this thread and I'm going to be poster #11.

:confused: Most threads have multiple viewings with few replies.:shrug: For instance my thread about Ace - 21/193. insitent's thinking between 2 breed(s) 13/188. Cerena's when drooling and weight loss becomes serious - 46/819. Don't quite get it? My feeling is that this thread is in the photo forum so people wanted to see pictures. 2+2 still makes 4 in my books. I don't think there were any dasteredly motives behind it.

Anyway, I'm glad the dog's "pyometra" was blown out of proportion. Just sorry she had to go through it. If she had been mine the moment that P word was mentioned she would have been spayed. But then again - had she been mine she wouldn't have been bred so I guess that's a mute point. :rolleyes: Cute pups. I hope they all find excellent, forever homes soon. :fingerscr

Tundra_Queen
May 10th, 2011, 06:26 PM
I am surprised that if that disease is so serious that u didn't have her spayed right away. Wasn't having her carry the pups to term and give birth putting a great strain on her already strained system?

Will the babies also not have trouble in the future because of the infection that was in their mom and probably flowing thru the uterus and into their organs and such too? You won't sell the babies as show worthy will u? Cause wouldn't they have a possibility of carrying something onto their babies if they wer bred? And isn't the whole point of breeding is to keep the line pure and strong? I don't know much about breeding but that only makes sense to me.

Not me..lol one of the owners... her daddy just passed away..I posted his picture in Pets that passed away. His full pedigree name is there. BIS BISS World Int Can Am Mex It Pol Lux Ch Wenrick's Hollywood Hit ROM 1997-2011

He was Canadian, but was shown an bred internationally...

Woody passed away? Please tell me that's not true as he was Mindy's daddy too. He was such a beautiful dog! :( Mindy's babies are all over the world and are champions too. That is so sad.

Goldfields
May 10th, 2011, 08:12 PM
TQ, pyometra can be dangerous but obviously SIA is observant and caught it early enough for the Vet to bring about this miracle. I imagine that the decision to just agree with the vet to try and save the pups must have been a terribly hard one for SIA. It shows a great deal of trust in the Vet involved, which I think is great. If I were SIA I would run your theory about it effecting future generations by that vet, as I will by a couple I go to also. Is there a vet who would reply to this on the forum? It's an interesting subject. Not a situation many breeders find themselves in. I could be totally wrong but surely if it effected the pups she may have aborted them, or now we'd see fading puppy syndrome?

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 09:10 PM
I am surprised that if that disease is so serious that u didn't have her spayed right away. Wasn't having her carry the pups to term and give birth putting a great strain on her already strained system?

Will the babies also not have trouble in the future because of the infection that was in their mom and probably flowing thru the uterus and into their organs and such too? You won't sell the babies as show worthy will u? Cause wouldn't they have a possibility of carrying something onto their babies if they wer bred? And isn't the whole point of breeding is to keep the line pure and strong? I don't know much about breeding but that only makes sense to me.

No. The best thing for a uterus that has had a pyometra is a pregnancy! The puppies were not infected, and show no sign of stunted growth or organ failure. They are strong, healthy, and thriving. This is not a congenital infection, and because it was cleared up weeks ago, the puppies were not exposed to it during their birth. Mom has so far proven herself to have a strong, healthy immune system.

None of my puppies will be bred unless they pass all relevant health and breeding soundness exams. This is not specific to this litter, it is part of my standard contract for those few homes that I approve on breeding agreements instead of spay/neuter.

Tundra_Queen
May 10th, 2011, 09:28 PM
SIA...like I said I don't know much about breeding. But u said "No. The best thing for a uterus that has had a pyometra is a pregnancy!"

That to me sounds like if dog gets pregnant AFTER having the disease it will be ok for it to become pregnant, But NOT DURING the pregnancy.

Also.."The puppies were not infected, and show no sign of stunted growth or organ failure. They are strong, healthy, and thriving"

The pups would have been embryos 8 weeks ago, about 3 days old, so who knows what affect the disease has on embryos in that stage of development? Just because they are doing ok now does not mean in 1 or 3 years that something won't show up because of their beginning. And if they are bred that things won't show up in their children.

I would of been more interested in saving the Mother and protecting her than putting her thru a pregnancy. JMO

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 09:52 PM
TQ, pyometra can be dangerous but obviously SIA is observant and caught it early enough for the Vet to bring about this miracle. I imagine that the decision to just agree with the vet to try and save the pups must have been a terribly hard one for SIA. It shows a great deal of trust in the Vet involved, which I think is great. If I were SIA I would run your theory about it effecting future generations by that vet, as I will by a couple I go to also. Is there a vet who would reply to this on the forum? It's an interesting subject. Not a situation many breeders find themselves in. I could be totally wrong but surely if it effected the pups she may have aborted them, or now we'd see fading puppy syndrome?
I will definitely ask my vet if there are any concerns for the puppies' future that wouldn't be outwardly obvious as a failure to thrive, but let me know if yours have any experience to share, too. The antibiotics she was on from day 7-35 (Baytril tablets) have been clinically tested safe during pregnancy, so I'm not expecting any issues due to that either.

SamIam
May 10th, 2011, 10:10 PM
SIA...like I said I don't know much about breeding. But u said "No. The best thing for a uterus that has had a pyometra is a pregnancy!"

That to me sounds like if dog gets pregnant AFTER having the disease it will be ok for it to become pregnant, But NOT DURING the pregnancy.

Also.."The puppies were not infected, and show no sign of stunted growth or organ failure. They are strong, healthy, and thriving"

The pups would have been embryos 8 weeks ago, about 3 days old, so who knows what affect the disease has on embryos in that stage of development? Just because they are doing ok now does not mean in 1 or 3 years that something won't show up because of their beginning. And if they are bred that things won't show up in their children.

I would of been more interested in saving the Mother and protecting her than putting her thru a pregnancy. JMO

Pyometra is not genetic and it is not viral. If you have a background in developmental biology that can explain what sort of problems would be hiding in these puppies for 1-3 years, or could skip a generation, please elaborate.

At no time did I or my vet make a decision that was not in the mother's best interests.

Goldfields
May 10th, 2011, 11:13 PM
I will definitely ask my vet if there are any concerns for the puppies' future that wouldn't be outwardly obvious as a failure to thrive, but let me know if yours have any experience to share, too. The antibiotics she was on from day 7-35 (Baytril tablets) have been clinically tested safe during pregnancy, so I'm not expecting any issues due to that either.

I find it an interesting idea, SIA, I think any breeder would want to know the answer to that. Sounds good to me so far though. I have one vet calling in tomorrow :( , and will see the other as I leave town after shopping on Friday. In the meantime, doing a happy dance for you, your little Chi' girl and her pups. :goodvibes: With Shelties so difficult to breed I can delight in a good whelping like yours.

kathryn
May 10th, 2011, 11:29 PM
Congrats I guess, but for those who are asking about the pyo, from my experience talking with reputable breeders & experienced veterinarians, yes, they would have indeed spayed the dog (or cat) regardless of the pregnancy.. a pyo is a pyo is a pyo. I'm not bashing OP, simply here to hopefully give some insight on the medical aspect. I also find it VERY hard to believe that ANY animal could carry to full term with a full blown pyometra.. I have /NEVER/ heard of that, ever. ever. ever. ever. I will ask my friends @ the clinic next time I get a chance and see if they have ever heard of it, but I have seen pregnant animals w/ pyos before and every single one of them was on the verge of death and we had to do emergency spays and most of the animals were transferred to vet offices to be hospitalized because they nearly became septic.

I actually have several pictures of the aftermath of a pregnant animal with a pyo, but I've already talked to the mods and they said no posting of surgery pics without the OP of a thread giving explicit consent :o But yeah, congrats to the pups for making it through.

Take care, wishing you them the best :fingerscr

SamIam
May 11th, 2011, 12:35 AM
Well Kathryn, I am not the sort of breeder who waits until my dogs are on the verge of death before taking them to the vet.

Melinda
May 11th, 2011, 04:21 AM
so how are puppies and mamma this morning? do you still register births by same letter names? with dam and sire in there? ok ok, it was many moons ago that we bred poms, but I do remember the registering of them, we had to do a print of their little noses!!

Mirela
May 11th, 2011, 08:01 AM
so how are puppies and mamma this morning? do you still register births by same letter names? with dam and sire in there? ok ok, it was many moons ago that we bred poms, but I do remember the registering of them, we had to do a print of their little noses!!

Oh, that's so cute, Melinda. :) I didn't think that the pattern is discernible so early. ...OTOH - when are the registration papers done - right after birth or after a few weeks?

Melinda
May 11th, 2011, 08:09 AM
Oh, that's so cute, Melinda. :) I didn't think that the pattern is discernible so early. ...OTOH - when are the registration papers done - right after birth or after a few weeks?

remember, I'm going back 40 yrs here, the nose prints were done at 3 weeks, it was a small tube of black "goop" you'd put a dab on the nose and smoosh it around, hold the pups head and "print" it on a white form (special square where you do it) it was supposedly like a finger print, no two were alike.

Longblades
May 11th, 2011, 08:12 AM
I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? That/s not what my neighbour's is, and he must weigh nearly 15 lbs. I must google those other types of Chi.

Mirela
May 11th, 2011, 08:47 AM
[...]

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? [...].

This is a very important question and has to be answered with more pics.:D
SIA - You can't just post one set of puppy pics and then go away :frustrated:
They grow up fast, we need updates!

Melinda
May 11th, 2011, 08:49 AM
they change daily, so yes, I think a new set of pics are in order

Goldfields
May 11th, 2011, 11:26 AM
I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? That/s not what my neighbour's is, and he must weigh nearly 15 lbs. I must google those other types of Chi.

I don't think the suggestion she be spayed included trying to save that litter, Longblades, it couldn't, too early for that don't you think? You are right about the infection being a risk after surgery too, it's why my vet for instance will not pull a cracked carnassial molar until an abcess caused by it is cured with antibiotics first. You could name a lot of examples.

Melinda, that's very interesting about the nose prints. I don't recall that ever being done here. If I'm talking to a Judge friend I must ask her, she was breeding dogs probably well before I ever did. With the poms was there much of a size difference in litters? I always looked at them at shows and wondered how on earth you'd groom the little fuzz balls. :D They have such a dense coat.

SamIam
May 11th, 2011, 12:03 PM
Off to the vet for newborns check-ups today and a few errands as well. New pics and answers will have to wait until later this evening, or for those of you in Australia, til morning.

SamIam
May 11th, 2011, 10:55 PM
Well, first things first, as I know you're all dying of curiosity to know what puppies look like at one and two days of age compared to newborn.
Mostly they look like this:
73826
You need good photography skills to see them from this angle as they're rater squirmy:
73825
Someone asked me my picks. Puppy #2 (female with white stripe) was the most eye-catching from the moment I laid eyes on that gorgeous face. Puppy #4 (dark-face female) is going to offer strong competition! Puppy #3 (darker male) will be tiniest with a nice face. Puppy #1 (lighter male) will still be a striking dog, but will mature larger and with a longer nose, and he will have longer more upright ears. When I say "picks" I am referring to current looks ONLY. In the end, I promise you each one of these puppies will be my favourite one for a different reason: the quietest, snuggliest, most adventurous, bravest, the one that has a certain expression or behaviour that is ever so wonderfully a reminder of what mom or dad was like at that age, and so on and so forth.

No none of them is bobble-headed and fortunately I have never had such a puppy born here!

Our vet did a check-up and mom and the puppies are officially confirmed perfectly healthy. I asked about the effects the pyometra or antibiotics on the puppies. Pyometra, had it affected them at all, would have caused an abortion, and it is of no concern whatsoever given that the puppies even exist. If the antibiotics had an affect on the puppies, it would have caused serious blood disorders that would lead to fading puppy syndrome/ failure to thrive. Baytril is considered safe during pregnancy, and at two days they are so far developing perfectly normally and are healthy. We are not planning to do bloodwork to verify the obvious, and my vet assured me that there are no possible affects from either the infection or the drug that could hide and then become active any time after the neonatal phase.

To ID puppies for registration you have to microchip them. CKC microchips are readable throughout Canada and Europe - the ones *I* would rather put in my puppies are readable throughout Canada and the USA.

Goldfields
May 11th, 2011, 11:21 PM
. I could be totally wrong but surely if it effected the pups she may have aborted them, or now we'd see fading puppy syndrome?

How about that, I wasn't totally wrong.:D And I imagine my own vets will say the same.
Lovely photo of your litter SIA. If you are like me you won't really enjoy parting with any of your 4 favorites when the time comes. :D It will be interesting to see how they go conformation wise later and whether that changes your choice of the pick pup, or have you already approved little Miss #2 in the respect?

erykah1310
May 11th, 2011, 11:28 PM
how absolutely adorable

SamIam
May 11th, 2011, 11:55 PM
I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?

If pyometra is advanced to the point where the uterus is expanded near rupture (think appendicitis!) immediate spay is less risky than waiting. I found a few references publishing odds of antibiotics being successful as 2-40%. That's a pretty broad range, but differences like that are common when you read the results of scientific research and statistics! We started the antibiotics and booked in for a tentative spay 2 and 3 days later, as it was a significant possibility.

Melinda
May 12th, 2011, 03:41 AM
oh my goodness, they are gorgeous, look at those ears *L* and the white tipped tail....my heart belongs to pup #4 with the dark "stripe" down the back.....

Mirela
May 12th, 2011, 08:06 AM
I love their pink feet. I'm curious to see puppy # 2 as she matures - that "mask" is so cute.

Longblades
May 12th, 2011, 08:47 AM
No none of them is bobble-headed and fortunately I have never had such a puppy born here!Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." :) They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?

Melinda
May 12th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." :) They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?

they would fit quite snuggly in your mittens!

SamIam
May 12th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." :) They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?

The search term "teacup" will get you a few. The smallest chis tend towards exaggerated shape, size-related nervousness (super-high metabolism), size-related thyroid problems, and so on. The shape I could never get used to because for me it is associated with poor health. I would rather have a 15-pound pup to my name, happy, healthy, friendly and long-lived, than the other extreme. Here is a girl I would call "bobble-head" that I do not expect to live more than 1-2 years. http://www.puppiessale.org/Beautiful-Girl-Tea-Cup3333_DCL.aspx

The new puppies can travel in a fanny pack; my older ones in a chest or backpack. I don't know what temperatures you consider suitable for skiing, so you may have to tolerate some spanish cursing and threats of running away to Mexico. Longhairs can be very cold-tolerant and enjoy playing in the snow, shorthairs too but not to the same extent, but you still have to be careful with their ears and toes, particularly on a windy day.

mikischo
May 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM
They are all absolutely adorable. Love those little pink noses. :cloud9:

It's so exciting to watch how they change over the first weeks of life so keep those pictures coming.:thumbs up

If I remember correctly, I think you said mom and dad are both long coats. Does that mean all the puppies will be long coats or can it vary? How long before their final coats come in? I thought I read somewhere on the net that it can take up to two years but that sounds like a long time.

SamIam
May 12th, 2011, 03:28 PM
Goldfields I am sticking with #2 for now. She is a jaw-dropper.

Erykah, thanks. You know they would fit right up those nostrils on that horse if he sniffed them?

Melinda, the eating pic is out of order, they are pup #2, #1, #4, #3. I think...

Mirela, those black masks will probably fall off except #4, so enjoy them while you still can!

Mikischo, dad is short-haired. There are so many things to look at when choosing a male to sire a litter that although I would have loved longhair, that was a point I was willing to sacrifice. The first coat will be best at 2-4 months age, the second coat comes at 6-12, and the final coat with more fullness and more length at 18-24. Spayed/neutered dogs tend to have better coats as well, so if that is done when the dog is older than 2, there will be another improvement at that time. When they are first born, longhairs have subtle differences. These are a day-old long- and short-haired pup from a previous mixed-coat litter of mine.
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SamIam
May 13th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Well today the kids & I went out to do some gardening, but the skies were too perfect: hot sun, no wind, too rare a moment to pass up, so out come the pups and the camera for a little fun first.

One is with a daffodil, which until this year would be my first big showy flowers of the season. Two is with elephant ears that I just put in last summer.
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Three is by some irises, and I have no idea what those little white flowers are with Four. Could be a weed, which would be fitting as she is growing like one!
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Mirela
May 14th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Awww, their first sniff at the great outdoors! Lovely!
And yeah, you did warn that the cute masks will fade but...really...so quick... :(

SamIam
May 14th, 2011, 10:06 PM
I have heard that blind dogs can navigate without touching or memory and have never seen how amazing that can be until today. Little Miss Four found herself at mom's back and she was hungry. Staying 1-2 inches away from mom, no closer no farther, she "ran" at top speed down mom's back and tail and around coming straight at her belly head on! Very smart baby girl!

It was too hot for the sunroom today, so they spent the afternoon outside in the shade in their box with mom beside on the cool grass inbetween their meals and me in the dirt planting vegetables. Yes finally they are actually sleeping a bit and not spending 95% of their time eating anymore. The masks are still there, it was just the bright sun. Four should keep hers forever, as she doesn't have the telltale cream cheeks.

erykah1310
May 15th, 2011, 01:05 AM
OK, Way too darn cute.
My handler for miss Tibby's friend has a sweet litter of Chi's too ( much older.. well they're 7 weeks now) I saw them this past friday when the handler stopped by with them in her car. It was the first time I have ever seen a Chi as a pup. I look forward to more pics of them as they grow. I will be watching this thread, just giving fair warning :D

Goldfields
May 15th, 2011, 11:11 AM
This really makes me want another Chi', Erykah. Mine was a long coat but I've actually always preferred smooths. Wouldn't want to breed them, I'll leave that to braver souls than I, but as a pet they are fantastic. Wouldn't your TM's also be super cute fluff balls as puppies?

mikischo
May 15th, 2011, 07:41 PM
Awe, puppies enjoying their first introduction to the great outdoors. Absolutely beautiful. Talk about cuteness overload. :lovestruck:

I can already see subtle little changes from the last pictures. They look so tiny when comparing them to your fingers. Can their birth weights be a good indicator of what size they will be as adults?

SamIam
May 15th, 2011, 10:13 PM
No. Not at birth and not at 8 weeks either. Litter size and individual mother are stronger influences in the beginning than potential. And each pup seems to have their own growth spurts and they stop growing at 5-18 months age.

Every winter I forget what happens when that sun comes back to Canada from Australia. In the garden on my knees all day, I'm as pink as those Elephant Ears flowers. Ouch my arms, ouch the bottom of my feet. :rolleyes: Will I ever learn?

Here they are. Posed in order.
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Melinda
May 16th, 2011, 05:59 AM
awwwww I'm so in love with the last one on the right....is that number 4??? they sure seem to be growing

SamIam
May 17th, 2011, 09:36 PM
Growing, yes, but they are still just bite-sized. One and Four doubled their birth weight at about 7.5 days. Two and Three aren't there yet. One has been growing very nicely, he was at a disadvantage being born first as it always lengthens the head, but only temporarily. They're getting quite adventurous, wandering around, despite being blind and deaf, as with the gorgeous weather they have no need to cuddle each other or mom for warmth.

Here's One with a kidney bean plant and his mom giving him a kiss. Sorry it's blurry, but after I remembered to turn on the flower setting, she would only kiss his other end.:o And two with a daffodil, they surprised me blooming so quickly without even buds visible a day before. She is still my favourite, might be the one who goes to live with mom's breeder, but they are as indecisive as I was when mom was this small.
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Here's Three with my Hyacinths. They didn't bloom last year, but they didn't have pretty pups to pose with, either. And Four with lunch. :laughing:
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mikischo
May 18th, 2011, 12:30 PM
Great pics of all your beautiful puppies. :cloud9:

Thanks for the update.

Yes, bite size they are.:lovestruck:

Love the one of mom giving baby a kiss. The one of #4 with her face beside the strawberry really gives a clear idea of how tiny they are. I can't imagine her being half that weight just over a week ago.

Mirela
May 18th, 2011, 08:27 PM
LOVE the strawberry "sizing". Wow , they're tiny!!

cpietra16
May 19th, 2011, 05:30 AM
wow..either that is a huge "on steroids" strawberry or that puppy is very small...:D:cloud9:

Melinda
May 19th, 2011, 05:36 AM
gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous, *L* almost makes me change my mind about chi's, what little sweethearts they are

Golden Girls
May 19th, 2011, 12:12 PM
:cloud9: Beautiful :cloud9:

SamIam
May 20th, 2011, 09:16 PM
Thanks, everyone!

Well, today the little squirmers got their first nail trim as they've grown themselves sharp little claws that are starting to catch on their blanket. Once they're full-grown they're good for cat/rabbit/gp nail clippers, but for now regular human fingernail clippers do the trick.
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Here are the ladies, Two and Four, you can see who the heaviest of the lot is!
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And the gentlemen, Three and One, the weight difference isn't so obvious but you can see who has the biggest head!
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rawfed
May 20th, 2011, 10:11 PM
I don't understand?? :confused: You said days after being bred she had pyometria. So how did she end up having puppies?
The puppies are cuties

Goldfields
May 20th, 2011, 10:45 PM
They are just so darn cute, SIA. If it were my litter I'd never get any work done. She's doing a good job, they look very content. The previous photo's are precious, a head the size of a strawberry but love mum getting her nose in that first one, making sure her baby is okay. The photo with the grape hyacinths really brings home how small they are.

SamIam
May 22nd, 2011, 12:14 AM
Who, me? Stay in bed after my eyes are open for a half-hour of puppy-watching? Let dishes pile up in the sink because I can't wash them and hold a puppy at the same time? :eek: Never! :rolleyes: Well, almost hardly ever. :o Good thing the weather's been nice enough they can... er... help... with the weeding and planting of the garden.

Just Peeking
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Melinda
May 22nd, 2011, 06:58 AM
oh my...what sweetness to start my morning with!!!

Mirela
May 22nd, 2011, 10:25 AM
Cute "peeking":thumbs up. And the spotted nose of #3 is just adorable.

14+kitties
May 22nd, 2011, 10:32 AM
I don't understand?? :confused: You said days after being bred she had pyometria. So how did she end up having puppies?
The puppies are cuties

I'll link you back to the original thread where SIAM says her dog was "showing symptoms of". Maybe that will help you understand rawfed. :thumbs up
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=75879

Goldfields
May 22nd, 2011, 12:06 PM
SIA, I can recall when my Dundee(sheltie) was small enough just to fit in my hand like that.
Miss those days, so love seeing your photo's.
By the way, a friend of mine with ACD's, asked her vet to spay a female that was having a caesar because she just had a feeling that a pyo was looming. The vet said no, but added that she'd take a look when she operated . Well, I think it was 3 pups in one horn of the uterus, a single pup and the start of pyometra in the other , so she did get spayed. The bad news there was that there was only one female pup, my friend definitely wanted to keep it, but it won't be a show specimen because of its head markings. They are not nice or even, they give it quite a surly look. Judges would take one look and expect to get bitten. LOL. I've had one like that, Sweetie. She had uneven markings that gave the impression that her muzzle was snipey, but when I put a tape measure all over her head, it measured just as good as her granddam's head, which was very nice(and plain faced).

mikischo
May 22nd, 2011, 12:41 PM
Awe, they are starting to open their eyes now. :cloud9:Absolutely adorable:cloud9:

On the other set of pics the fingernail clippers look enormous beside the puppy and I can clearly see the size differences you mentioned.

Beautiful pics, SIA. Keep them coming.:thumbs up

SamIam
May 22nd, 2011, 01:10 PM
:( Sheltie-sized already, they grow so fast.
I like fairly even face markings, too, and in a patched puppy I like to see dark around both ears and both eyes. I do feel skull shape with my fingers, hold pups side by side to compare profiles, and even pull out a ruler to compare proportions. Markings on the face fade with age, and especially in new puppies they can really confuse things. Would I trade these marked guys in for a litter of black labs? Never!

Goldfields
May 22nd, 2011, 08:42 PM
Dundee was a very small baby, SIA, so cheer up, you haven't got big Chi's. :laughing: What do they weigh at birth?
Face markings on shelties tone down a bit too, here is one of my pups, Alistair(to be named Tiber in his forever home) as an example. But, white markings are not quite like solid coloured patches in the wrong place. :D I hope for Chris's sake the pup looks better at maturity, but if not, well, the mating was done to preserve some very good old bloodlines, she and I are both very concerned about the state of the gene pool due to popular sire syndrome or whatever they call it now. That fad where everyone breeds to the one type/bloodline that judges care to put up. It has done so much damage to my breed here(as in lost bloodlines) that, all joking aside, to find an outcross you'd almost need to import dogs back from the States.
Know what you mean by the way, cattle dogs are born white, the only colour being the head markings, so it was interesting to later have sheltie pups where you could start geussing what shade they would turn out and hope for the perfect collars and even leg markings etc. for the show ring. The best pup as far as breed type goes was not always the best marked. :( LOL. Frustrating.

SamIam
May 23rd, 2011, 01:02 PM
They were about 4 oz, which is a nice size. For colour, they will do the same thing as Alistair/Tiber, more tan and less black & white. Two things different, they will not keep the dark sabling on the back, due to being short-haired; and some of them will be heavily ticked as well.

Goldfields
May 23rd, 2011, 08:38 PM
4oz is tiny. My smallest shelties have been 6ozs, and according to a friend who's bred them for the past 30 to 40 years, anything 6 oz and under in this breed usually needs watching. It will be interesting watching your pups grow and change. :)

SamIam
May 24th, 2011, 09:43 PM
You might expect, that after almost 2 weeks of having their eyes glued shut, puppies would be excited about finally being able to explore their world visually. They would be up walking with their bellies held off the floor, then tumbling onto their backs in infantile clumsiness. You would think that even with the blurred vision that babies first start with, they would be eager to investigate light and shapes that were barely noticeable through those closed eyelids. For sure, they would experience this amazing new sensation with awe.

This assumption is absolutely correct.

It lasted about 5 minutes and that was on Sunday evening.

I enjoyed it immensely.

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Melinda
May 25th, 2011, 05:37 AM
oh my god....just like human babies, I love starting my mornings off with this post.

Goldfields
May 25th, 2011, 11:45 AM
What chubby little babies they have turned into. Mum is doing a great job.

mikischo
May 26th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Glad they are enjoying their little adventures in this strange new world.:laughing:

Too adorable.:lovestruck:

Makes me want to rub those chubby little bellies.:cloud9:

Melinda
May 26th, 2011, 11:17 AM
sooooooooo :whistle: how much to rent them for a weekend??