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I thought this was an interesting read...

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 12:29 PM
How to kill a shelter dog
On January 6, 2010 · 26 Comments · In General ....How to Kill a Shelter Dog

It’s really simple: Buy from an irresponsible breeder. I need you to hear this: If you buy from an irresponsible breeder, you are killing shelter dogs. YOU.

What’s an irresponsible breeder? Any breeder that does not breed as a caretaker and devotee of her particular breed, as shown by showing/trialing/titling (i.e., the dogs have a reason for existing and a measure of quality other than “because they’re cute”), health testing, and being involved in a community of her peers.

Where do you find irresponsible breeders? Flea markets; swap meets; newspaper ads; generic sites on the Web that list a bunch of breeders on the same page. They’re the guy at your office that let his girl dog get pregnant. They’re the friend of a friend who bred her miniature Australian Shepherd “just once.” They’re your cousin who thinks she can make some money by breeding her Chesapeake Bay Retriever to another registered Chessie. They’re the people with the plastic sign at the end of their driveway: “Yellow Labs: $250.” Some of them even have gorgeous websites and professionally produced graphics; many of them are wonderful people, members of churches, clean housekeepers. They don’t look like puppy mills or evil people. But hear this: I don’t care if the breeder is your best friend and you think her dog is just awesome and your kids love the puppies and there was a rainbow in her driveway when you came over to see the litter. If she is not a responsible breeder, go to any vet’s office and ask to see the big bottle of Euthanol and take a good hard look at it, then go to your shelter and pick out the six dogs that are going to get that needle because your friend bred her dog.

Learn to recognize the birdcall of the irresponsible breeder: “We focus on breeding happy, healthy pets.” “You don’t need a show breeder; you just want a pet.” “We don’t want our dogs ruined by the stresses of the show ring.” “I am going to breed her once and only once, just so I can keep a puppy.” “This mix offers the best of both worlds-the nonshedding poodle and the easy-going Lab” (or insert the two or three breeds of your choice). “Our pets are our babies – we breed only for temperament.” “Mom and dad vet-checked.” “Champion lines.”"Family-raised adorable pets.”

Learn to recognize the website of the irresponsible breeder: Dogs pictured lying down or playing. Males and females are called “mommies” and “daddies.” Puppies are often shown with props, or with hats on, or on a satin background. A special place in hell is waiting for those websites that show all the breeding females obviously pregnant or lactating (because, presumably, they are never NOT pregnant or lactating). There are no show pictures (where the dogs are “stacked” foursquare) or groomed pictures. The dogs have no achievements aside from looking cute. There’s usually a focus on external qualities: the biggest puppy, the smallest puppy, particular (often “rare”) colors, desirable hair textures or lengths.

So how does your purchase kill a shelter dog? Buying from an irresponsible breeder does several things: one, you’re buying a dog that you could have adopted instead. Irresponsible breeders don’t offer you anything that you can’t find at a shelter; they do not breed only the best to the best; they don’t warranty health or temperament; they don’t test and prove their dogs to demonstrate that their breeding stock looks, acts, or performs the way that breed should. So they are competing directly with the shelters in terms of putting dogs into people’s arms, and when people can buy a puppy instead of adopting an older dog, they virtually always do so.

Second, irresponsible breeders don’t just produce the puppy you brought home. That was one of a litter of perhaps six or eight. You gave them a pretty big check for almost no work on their part, so they’ll do it again. Maybe they’ll get a couple more bitches and make it a part-time job. So yeah, you may take this dog home and love it and never give it up, but your purchase encouraged the breeder to make thirty or forty or fifty more dogs. Can you guarantee that they all ended up in good homes? Can you be sure that they didn’t end up in shelters? The purebred dogs in shelters are the result of irresponsible breeders – yup, the same one you just handed a check to. It’s as simple as that.

Irresponsible breeders are going to keep on breeding until they cannot sell puppies. The market must end. That’s why it’s YOUR responsibility, not just theirs. The first time they have a litter of seven Labs who are all still chewing on kitchen cabinets at age one, having consumed several thousand dollars worth of food; the first time they have to raise an entire litter of Maltese until the patellas start to fail on all the dogs; the first time they get some of the pain and none of the dollars, they’ll reconsider doing this again. Until then, they will keep making puppies.

So what now?

There are exactly two ways to obtain a puppy or dog: adopt from a rescue, shelter, or pound; and buy from a responsible breeder who SHOWS (or trials) her dogs, who HEALTH TESTS (not “vet checks”), who INTERVIEWS YOU and who has standards for where she places her puppies-which means she may tell you no-who REQUIRES A WRITTEN CONTRACT including a puppy-back clause so your dog never ends up in a shelter or rescue, and who is open to PEER REVIEW and a member in good standing in her community (as shown by participation in a club or recommendations from other good breeders in the area). These are the qualities that set her apart as a responsible breeder, and they’re what keep your purchased puppy from adding to the statistics of homeless dogs.

mummummum
April 13th, 2011, 12:37 PM
That is so well articulated Shay, it brought tears to my eyes.

How can we responsible animal guardians "make this go viral" ? :pray:

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Post in on facebook?

Loki Love
April 13th, 2011, 12:40 PM
Post in on facebook?


Do you have the link to the comment/article itself? I would love to post it on my FB.

14+kitties
April 13th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Do you have the link to the comment/article itself? I would love to post it on my FB.


http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/...a-shelter-dog/

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 12:44 PM
sure do.....

http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/general/how-to-kill-a-shelter-dog/

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 12:44 PM
lol we posted at the same time..lol

Goldfields
April 13th, 2011, 12:46 PM
It's spot on. :thumbs up . Who wrote it?

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 12:49 PM
Part 2

This comment was given to the "How to kill a shelter dog" post; I will replicate it here because I think it's so important to respond to, but won't give the person's name or e-mail (after all, they did not ask to be singled out like this!)


Geez, this is WAY too sweeping! We bought a puppy from a sportsman with 5 chessies, and one litter. Met the mom and dad (both healthy and well trained, great temperments).
Our puppy is now 2 years old and a WONDERFUL dog. Well behaved, lovely, a dog of a lifetime. He's not quite show quality (topline is not straight enough). But he's not going to be bred. So why do you feel you need to go this far?
Shouldn't a better idea be to see the puppy at it's home, see it's mom and dad, talk to the person that's owns the litter? Even show dogs can have long term problems with health.
Let's not make love of a breed such a snobby affair so that only those bred from 'show lines' or 'champions' are considered worthy purebred pets .



This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Imagine that you came to look at a new house for sale. The agent said "I've sold fifteen of these; everyone just LOVES the brick facade and these are great houses to live in. Big closets, wonderful kitchens."

You look up at the house and the entire thing is listing to one side; the roofline shows a definite dip in the middle and shingles are already starting to buckle under the strain.

"But what about the roof? Isn't that a pretty bad sign? And the whole thing seems to be falling over!"

The agent responds "Why do you even feel the need to mention that? You're not going for the cover of Architectural Digest, are you? You just want to live in this house. The roof doesn't matter!"

Do you buy the house?

OF COURSE NOT. You'd be an rank idiot to buy that house and, furthermore, everybody knows that. The brick and the gorgeous kitchen is going to do you no good when the whole thing falls over in fifteen years. You know that the architect or the builder was at best clueless and at worst deceptive.

Why is it, then, that the exact same structural faults, when bred in by the "architect" of the litter, don't matter?

I am absolutely sure that your dog is a wonderful, wonderful dog. If you read this blog for any length of time you know that we are on the order of blinking bedlam in love with Ginny, who has more structural faults than you could list on a notebook page.

But here's the thing: ALL DOGS ARE WONDERFUL. The mind and heart of a dog is a mystical and astounding fit for the mind and heart of a man or a woman or a child, and even the worst dogs are endearing. The best dogs are life-changing. Nobody's arguing that you shouldn't love and bond with a dog who isn't as well-bred or well-structured as he or she should be.

The question is whether we should be deliberately producing MORE of those dogs.

Topline faults, like your dog has, are not because of a benign variation in the bones of the spine. Topline faults are the result of the OTHER bones being shaped incorrectly. Either the front (the assembly of the shoulder blade and the upper arm) is too far forward so the change in the direction of the vertebrae is exposed, or the angle of the stifle and hock is greater than the angle of the front and the dog literally trips over his front legs when he runs, so the dog has learned to pop up his loin to keep his rear out of the way of his front, or there is some other imbalance or lack of relaxation lower down in the body. Each of these imbalances affects the dog as he stands, or moves, or runs, and in each case some of his ability to be comfortable is gone.

You obviously adore your dog, which is fabulous. And you are going to watch out for him and make sure he's happy. But he doesn't exist in a vacuum. His mom probably had a similar topline fault. And she was asked to carry an extra twenty to thirty pounds (when she was pregnant) on a topline that was not as strong and supportive as it should have been. Breeders KNOW what pregnancy does to an iffy topline; it can break it down completely, leaving the bitch with not just a minor dip but a complete sway. And that contributes to injury, stiffness, arthritis, and so on.

And while he will never be shown or bred, his sisters quite possibly will be. And his brothers will be bred to other Chessies and pass on their own faults, faults that most assuredly do affect longevity and quality of life.

This kind of thing should be just as outrageous to us as a builder trying to sell a house with shingles falling off. It should tick us off; it should make us feel ripped off that somebody is out there selling living creatures who, through no fault of their own, don't have as good a chance at living a long and happy life.

It is NOT true that only champions should be bred. It IS true that breeders should have to prove that they are consistently and deliberately producing sound bodies so the wonderful doggy minds inside them can have a structure that allows them to do their job with ease and without pain. One way of doing that is showing; breeders who show are saying "This was not a fluke; this was my conscious effort because I understand how dogs are supposed to be built." Breeders can also do it by working their dogs, systematically and into old age and with some kind of element of peer review so there's somebody telling them whether it's working. This could be hunting or herding or doing schutzhund or flyball or one of MANY disciplines. The important part of it is not the name attached; it's having to show your dog to somebody who's going to say to you "See this? Neuter this dog" or "See that? Breed to that dog." Peer review forces us out of our own emotional attachments and makes us consider what we are doing in the context of the entire group or the entire breed; it also puts us next to people who have dogs who are MUCH better than ours are, which gives us something to strive for.

The reason I get so heated about this is not that I only love show dogs. Our rescues bring us great joy and a depth of experience that in some ways the show dogs will never touch; the deepest bond is saving a life, and when you absolutely know that you are the one who stood between this living creature and a premature death, it gets you right in the knees. What makes me mad is that it seems that everybody forgot the DOG in the conversation. It becomes what I want, or don't be unfair to that nice breeder, or are you saying I'm dumb for buying this dog, or aren't you such a snob.

Forget me, forget you, forget the breeder. Look at the dog.

He did not ask to be born; his parents did not fall in love and run through the field together. Somebody deliberately made him, and he had no choice in the matter. So it is the height of sin to make him in a way that means he does not have at least a decent chance of being comfortable, sane, whole, and happy for as long a life as he should have on this earth, and for his body to obey his brain with ease and joy. Please do not write a check to somebody who doesn't have that much consideration for him, or for his mother.

Loki Love
April 13th, 2011, 12:52 PM
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/...a-shelter-dog/

Thank you!

Love4himies
April 13th, 2011, 01:20 PM
So what now?

There are exactly two ways to obtain a puppy or dog: adopt from a rescue, shelter, or pound; and buy from a responsible breeder who SHOWS (or trials) her dogs, who HEALTH TESTS (not “vet checks”), who INTERVIEWS YOU and who has standards for where she places her puppies-which means she may tell you no-who REQUIRES A WRITTEN CONTRACT including a puppy-back clause so your dog never ends up in a shelter or rescue, and who is open to PEER REVIEW and a member in good standing in her community (as shown by participation in a club or recommendations from other good breeders in the area). These are the qualities that set her apart as a responsible breeder, and they’re what keep your purchased puppy from adding to the statistics of homeless dogs.

So if a dog from a "responsible" breeder ends up in a shelter (owners die, owners get divorced, etc, etc.) and those who go to "responsible" breeders, rather than to the shelter to get a dog, that dog sitting in the shelter doesn't die?

Somebody who truly (and I mean truly) cares for a breed and not just their "superior" pups, does not want any of those dogs dieing in shelters, it's not the dog's fault they were born to unhealthy parents.

The other thing I get from this article, is if you find a purebred in a shelter, then it must be unhealthy, because healthy purebreds are only gotten from
responsible breeders and they do NOT end up in shelters contributing to the overpopulation of dogs/cats. There is such a stigma already attached to "shelter" dogs/cats and I don't think this article helps it.

Also, just because you win in the show ring, doesn't mean you have a healthy cat/dog or that your pet will not develop health issues down the road. Look at Himalayans and Persians and what the show ring has done to them. They end up with horrible sinus problems due to their "pushed in faces" (and personally I find them not as attractive as ones that don't quite conform to the "standards").

I just don't buy this "show ring" stuff. I think dogs (more so than cats because dogs are more likely to have "jobs") should be bred to be able to perform certain "tasks", that could be a mutt (Alaskan Huskies, for example) or a purebred.

To me, there is only one way to NOT kill a shelter dog and that is to adopt from a shelter.


Just my :2cents:.
Whoops just realized it looks like I am directing my response to shay, but I'm not, it is to the article itself.


Yes, mods, I will be on my best behaviour :angel:

Shaykeija
April 13th, 2011, 01:27 PM
LOL do not hang me up and whack me like a pinata..lol

Love4himies
April 13th, 2011, 01:44 PM
LOL do not hang me up and whack me like a pinata..lol

I won't, I promise, you're a rescuer, so you're an :angel: :lovestruck:

mummummum
April 13th, 2011, 01:53 PM
Excellent points L4H! Couldn't agree with you more. :thumbs up

I'm putting it on my FB page. I guarantee you that it's more thinking than most Amil.Q.Public has done on the issue and I see it as a good start in the right direction.

:thumbs up of course... if you wanted to rewrite it to include your thoughts... :thumbs up

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 03:37 PM
So if a dog from a "responsible" breeder ends up in a shelter (owners die, owners get divorced, etc, etc.) and those who go to "responsible" breeders, rather than to the shelter to get a dog, that dog sitting in the shelter doesn't die?

Somebody who truly (and I mean truly) cares for a breed and not just their "superior" pups, does not want any of those dogs dieing in shelters, it's not the dog's fault they were born to unhealthy parents.

The other thing I get from this article, is if you find a purebred in a shelter, then it must be unhealthy, because healthy purebreds are only gotten from
responsible breeders and they do NOT end up in shelters contributing to the overpopulation of dogs/cats. There is such a stigma already attached to "shelter" dogs/cats and I don't think this article helps it.

To me, there is only one way to NOT kill a shelter dog and that is to adopt from a shelter.


Interesting because that is not what I get when I read that article. I believe she is saying that either adopt from rescue or pound etc OR only buy from a responsible breeder. It is the byb and irresponsible breeders that contribute to the problem. Her defination of a responsible breeder also includes one that demands a dog is returned to her if the owners cannot keep.

http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/general/buying-a-puppy-takes-a-place-a-shelter-dog-could-have-had/
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/general/how-to-tell-a-good-breeder-website-from-a-bad-one/

I actually regularly read that blog and imo she has some amazing advice and an incredible love for dogs. Unfortunately she also recently redesigned the blog which makes it harder to find some of the great posts but it is worth the time to read through a lot of the information.

I am in the process of purchasing from a responsible breeder. I have researched my breed of choice (vizsla) and the breeders. I could have easily got a puppy last year when we lost Lucy but I have chosen to wait until I could get a puppy from a responsible breeder. I know what to look for in large part from the wonderful information I have learned from this forum as well as from blogs such as the one posted here. I do understand and respect your opinion but please don't imply that I do not love the breed or dogs or I am an awful person if I buy instead of rescue.

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 03:44 PM
I just don't buy this "show ring" stuff. I think dogs (more so than cats because dogs are more likely to have "jobs") should be bred to be able to perform certain "tasks", that could be a mutt (Alaskan Huskies, for example) or a purebred.

I think the blog writer actually agrees with you on that ..

Breeders can also do it by working their dogs, systematically and into old age and with some kind of element of peer review so there's somebody telling them whether it's working. This could be hunting or herding or doing schutzhund or flyball or one of MANY disciplines. The important part of it is not the name attached; it's having to show your dog to somebody who's going to say to you "See this? Neuter this dog" or "See that? Breed to that dog." Peer review forces us out of our own emotional attachments and makes us consider what we are doing in the context of the entire group or the entire breed; it also puts us next to people who have dogs who are MUCH better than ours are, which gives us something to strive for.

Love4himies
April 13th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Interesting because that is not what I get when I read that article. I believe she is saying that either adopt from rescue or pound etc OR only buy from a responsible breeder. It is the byb and irresponsible breeders that contribute to the problem. Her defination of a responsible breeder also includes one that demands a dog is returned to her if the owners cannot keep.

[

I understand the author's point, however IMO, there is only one way to save a shelter dog's life and that is to adopt for a shelter/rescue. I say this because there are only so many homes for dogs and cats. Homes are not created because a rep breeder decided to have a litter of pups.

If I was to pass away and I had a dog from a responsible breeder and had no family, would that dog go back to the breeder? I doubt it,the police would probably just take the dog to the pound. Also, if the dog is 10 years old, the breeder may also refuse it (has happened).

Secondly if I moved across the country and had to rehome my dog, would I ship it across back to the breeder, maybe, maybe not :shrug:, who knows but it's out of the breeders hands unless she is in constant contact with ALL the families that he/she has adopted puppies to.

Thirdly, if you are looking for a dog and you adopt one from a "rep breeder" rather than adopting from a shelter, that shelter dog, who could have been adopted, may die, and that "rep breeder' keeps on producing more dogs ;). That is killing a shelter dog. ;)

Maybe it's the accountant in me that sees only black and white numbers :shrug:. X amount of homes and X+X+X+X dogs looking for homes. It just doesn't add up to keep breeding :shrug:.


And, I didn't like him/her insinuating that shelter dogs are dogs that may health issues because they are from unrep breeders/mills. :frustrated:. I hear so many people say that to me when I suggest them going to the shelter/rescue that they think they are from mills/byb's and they don't want to adopt from there. :yell:. Very frustrating, indeed. :yell: :cry:

Love4himies
April 13th, 2011, 03:57 PM
I think the blog writer actually agrees with you on that ..

:thumbs up. I did see that, but the general concensus (sp) is, if you have a dog/cat who has won ribbons in the show ring, then you are probably a rep breeder. I just wanted to point out that a dog doesn't need to have ribbons to be good at what they were adopted for, or a cat can have health issues because it DOES conform to the standards.

Melinda
April 13th, 2011, 03:59 PM
a woman I use to keep for raises bishon's, the contract stated the pup/dog was to go back to her should something happen etc. well the lady passed away leaving her 10 yr old bishon , the daughter wanted the dog, the son wanted the dog and the grandaughter wanted the dog...nope...breeder insisted it go back to her and had the police remove the dog from their home. in this case i think it was wrong, could she not have checked their homes and approved one of them?....I agree breeders should take them back if they are at risk of going to a shelter though.

this wasn't arguing....its just something that to this day ticks me off....the dog could have been with people that loved it and knew it, instead it went to a stranger (breeder) who although is wonderful with her pets, the dog didn't know her or hubby.......you know?

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 04:46 PM
I understand the author's point, however IMO, there is only one way to save a shelter dog's life and that is to adopt for a shelter/rescue. I say this because there are only so many homes for dogs and cats. Homes are not created because a rep breeder decided to have a litter of pups.

If I was to pass away and I had a dog from a responsible breeder and had no family, would that dog go back to the breeder? I doubt it,the police would probably just take the dog to the pound. Also, if the dog is 10 years old, the breeder may also refuse it (has happened).

Secondly if I moved across the country and had to rehome my dog, would I ship it across back to the breeder, maybe, maybe not :shrug:, who knows but it's out of the breeders hands unless she is in constant contact with ALL the families that he/she has adopted puppies to.

Thirdly, if you are looking for a dog and you adopt one from a "rep breeder" rather than adopting from a shelter, that shelter dog, who could have been adopted, may die, and that "rep breeder' keeps on producing more dogs ;). That is killing a shelter dog. ;)

Sure those situations could happen but a responsible breeder interviews the buyers to weed out those persons likely to throw away their dog because of life circumstances. My breeder requires a five page questionairre and all sorts of other hoops that I must do such as showing to at least one title (show, obedience, agility, field etc). She is from Toronto and the only reason she would still consider me is that my obedience instructor is an old friend of hers and would vouch for me. I have my cats and dogs in my will with generous allowances for all so with some planning those situations will never apply. If we want to continue to be able to love the breeds that we do then the only way to achieve that is to support the ones who do their best to insure that those breeds stay healthy and well tempered.


Maybe it's the accountant in me that sees only black and white numbers :shrug:. X amount of homes and X+X+X+X dogs looking for homes. It just doesn't add up to keep breeding :shrug:.


Nice try but I am a CGA :D.



And, I didn't like him/her insinuating that shelter dogs are dogs that may health issues because they are from unrep breeders/mills. :frustrated:. I hear so many people say that to me when I suggest them going to the shelter/rescue that they think they are from mills/byb's and they don't want to adopt from there. :yell:. Very frustrating, indeed. :yell: :cry:

Again, I don't get that from what she wrote. Perhaps that is because as a regular reader I know she often adopts shelter dogs, retrains them and then finds suitable homes. The cold hard facts are that a dog from a unrep breeder/mill is much more likely to have health issues and/or behavioural issues. There are many examples of those situations on this board. That doesn't mean they are all that way, there are amazing dogs/cats in shelters and rescues. It is just something to be aware of when you are considering adding a dog to your home. My Riley is even an example of this. He is from a litter that my aunt bred (before I even understood about byb). He is a wonderful amazing dog and I couldn't love him more. He does however have bad structure and will likely cost me a ton of money in the future for back or knee surgery if he has a serious injury. I take hime for regular IMS treatments to keep his back supple and he has been on glucosamine as a preventitive since he was a year old. I would love to do agility with him and he would also love it. I won't however because with his structure he is likely to get injured. I get stopped all the time because he is a beautiful dog. People want to know where they can get one like him or if he has sired any litters. It always tell him that he is a bad choice because of his structure not because I want to put down my dog but because I am worried about what bad breeding has done to a breed of dog that I absolutely love.

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 04:49 PM
:thumbs up. I did see that, but the general concensus (sp) is, if you have a dog/cat who has won ribbons in the show ring, then you are probably a rep breeder. I just wanted to point out that a dog doesn't need to have ribbons to be good at what they were adopted for, or a cat can have health issues because it DOES conform to the standards.

I don't disagree :). I do believe that with the right research and breeder that your odds of having those issues are minimized.

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 04:51 PM
a woman I use to keep for raises bishon's, the contract stated the pup/dog was to go back to her should something happen etc. well the lady passed away leaving her 10 yr old bishon , the daughter wanted the dog, the son wanted the dog and the grandaughter wanted the dog...nope...breeder insisted it go back to her and had the police remove the dog from their home. in this case i think it was wrong, could she not have checked their homes and approved one of them?....I agree breeders should take them back if they are at risk of going to a shelter though.


I agree that was wrong :(.

Love4himies
April 13th, 2011, 05:07 PM
That's fine if you disagree with me Teri, I read her essay differently. I still think the only way to keep from killing a shelter dog is to adopt from one :shrug:.

In the last paragraph is where I feel she is insinuating that dogs from rep breeders don't end up in shelters and non rep breeders can be breeding dogs plagued with health issues.

TeriM
April 13th, 2011, 05:20 PM
That's fine if you disagree with me Teri, I read her essay differently. I still think the only way to keep from killing a shelter dog is to adopt from one :shrug:.


I have respect for your opinion as well l4h and just wanted to share my thoughts. It's a bit of a sensitive area right now as I have worried that people I care about and respect on this board will no longer like me if I choose to buy. Agreeing to disagree is good :D.

Goldfields
April 13th, 2011, 11:06 PM
If I was to pass away and I had a dog from a responsible breeder and had no family, would that dog go back to the breeder? I doubt it,the police would probably just take the dog to the pound. Also, if the dog is 10 years old, the breeder may also refuse it (has happened).

Secondly if I moved across the country and had to rehome my dog, would I ship it across back to the breeder, maybe, maybe not :shrug:, who knows but it's out of the breeders hands unless she is in constant contact with ALL the families that he/she has adopted puppies to.

Isn't it time you thought about the irresponsible OWNER, L4H, instead of just the breeder? An irresponsible OWNER makes no provison for their dogs in the event of their own death.(My sister would take all of mine.) An irresponsible owner has to rehome because they were too lazy to look for accommodation interstate that could include their pet.(So, if what you found didn't have enough rooms for your children, do you try to rehome the kids? :D Same thing to the genuine dog or cat lover, they're our fur kids.) The irresponsible OWNER fails to keep in contact with the breeder. (I talk regularly with my friends who bred Cuddles and Perkins for instance, nearly 15 years old, responsible breeders who are still very interested in all their ups and downs and still consider my pair as part of their family too.) Irresponsible OWNERS rehome their dogs once they get too big/too boisterous/sick/ unsound/noisy or whatever , or they dump dogs, they don't go looking for their lost dogs, they put dogs in shelters. I never hear people here laying blame on irresponsible owners though. :shrug:
Compulsory micro-chipping for all dogs and cats I think is essential. We are heading that way here. All my pups(since micro chipping was introduced) are chipped, and when the owner is agreeable I like them to put me down as the second contact with the Central Animal Registry in case they get lost.(and found. :) )
Shaykeija, thanks for including the second part of that article. This sentence is so true ...

It IS true that breeders should have to prove that they are consistently and deliberately producing sound bodies so the wonderful doggy minds inside them can have a structure that allows them to do their job with ease and without pain. .....

That is so important. :thumbs up

Love4himies
April 14th, 2011, 07:40 AM
I have respect for your opinion as well l4h and just wanted to share my thoughts. It's a bit of a sensitive area right now as I have worried that people I care about and respect on this board will no longer like me if I choose to buy. Agreeing to disagree is good :D.

Thank you Teri :grouphug:. I do think people should have their own opinions, that's what makes the world change into a better place.

As for buying a pup rather than adopting, that is nobody's business but yours and hopefully members on this board will understand that :dog:.

Mirela
April 14th, 2011, 09:28 AM
Isn't it time you thought about the irresponsible OWNER, L4H, instead of just the breeder? An irresponsible OWNER makes no provison for their dogs in the event of their own death.(My sister would take all of mine.) An irresponsible owner has to rehome because they were too lazy to look for accommodation interstate that could include their pet.(So, if what you found didn't have enough rooms for your children, do you try to rehome the kids? :D Same thing to the genuine dog or cat lover, they're our fur kids.) The irresponsible OWNER fails to keep in contact with the breeder. (I talk regularly with my friends who bred Cuddles and Perkins for instance, nearly 15 years old, responsible breeders who are still very interested in all their ups and downs and still consider my pair as part of their family too.) Irresponsible OWNERS rehome their dogs once they get too big/too boisterous/sick/ unsound/noisy or whatever , or they dump dogs, they don't go looking for their lost dogs, they put dogs in shelters. I never hear people here laying blame on irresponsible owners though. :shrug:
Compulsory micro-chipping for all dogs and cats I think is essential. We are heading that way here. All my pups(since micro chipping was introduced) are chipped, and when the owner is agreeable I like them to put me down as the second contact with the Central Animal Registry in case they get lost.(and found. :) )
Shaykeija, thanks for including the second part of that article. This sentence is so true ...

It IS true that breeders should have to prove that they are consistently and deliberately producing sound bodies so the wonderful doggy minds inside them can have a structure that allows them to do their job with ease and without pain. .....

That is so important. :thumbs up

Excellent point Goldfields! Thank you.

Goldfields
April 14th, 2011, 10:25 AM
Thanks, Mirela. I could outtalk this entire forum on my anger towards irresponsible owners, irresponsible breeders and show people I detest but I rarely get the opportunity to start. Never mind, I just felt that it should be made plain that dogs don't go from the whelping box straight into shelters, they go to irresponsible owners, and if those people didn't exist(I'm talking about an ideal world here) then there wouldn't be all that breeding going on. If breeders were selling to people who never discarded dogs like old shoes then the market wouldn't be there for them to sell puppies. So, I blame bad owners for a LOT of the problems. And, before anyone says that breeders should vet owners better, a lot of people can really con a breeder big time, coming over like veritable saints, and those same people might just as easily con staff at rescues.

Melinda
April 14th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Thanks, Mirela. I could outtalk this entire forum on my anger towards irresponsible owners, irresponsible breeders and show people I detest but I rarely get the opportunity to start. Never mind, I just felt that it should be made plain that dogs don't go from the whelping box straight into shelters, they go to irresponsible owners, and if those people didn't exist(I'm talking about an ideal world here) then there wouldn't be all that breeding going on. If breeders were selling to people who never discarded dogs like old shoes then the market wouldn't be there for them to sell puppies. So, I blame bad owners for a LOT of the problems. And, before anyone says that breeders should vet owners better, a lot of people can really con a breeder big time, coming over like veritable saints, and those same people might just as easily con staff at rescues.

which is exactly what happened on my grandparents kennel, we even had his references checked...only to get a call from the reference person 6 months later to say the pom was tied up outside 24/7 on a short chain....my dad went to pay the man a visit, came home with the dog and bloody knuckles......he never did tell us what happened

Mirela
April 14th, 2011, 04:00 PM
which is exactly what happened on my grandparents kennel, we even had his references checked...only to get a call from the reference person 6 months later to say the pom was tied up outside 24/7 on a short chain....my dad went to pay the man a visit, came home with the dog and bloody knuckles......he never did tell us what happened

...nothing that was not deserved, I'm sure.
And I bet there were no complaints filed against your dad either...

Goldfields
April 14th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Good for him, Melinda. Heard of a similar case here where a breeder heard her cattle dog she'd sold was being kept caged up so she just walked in, put the price of the pup on the table and took the dog. On the other hand I lost all respect for one of our top breeders who discovered too late that she'd been conned into selling two sheltie pups to a dealer, then did nothing about it. I'd have been after his blood!

14+kitties
April 14th, 2011, 09:05 PM
This thread is a very important one. I would hate to see it being muddied with stories of what ethical breeders do. It sends a strong message out about how to recognize irresponsible , unethical breeders. By turning it into a "what a good breeder does vs what a bad one does" it takes away from the thread. I can remember not so long ago one of the members posting in this thread was questioning the very breeder she got her dog from. How quickly that has been forgotten.
Can we see if we can now start practicing the friendlier, kinder Pets some folks are striving for? This would be a wonderful place to start. Thank you.

Mirela
April 14th, 2011, 10:08 PM
This thread is a very important one. I would hate to see it being muddied with stories of what ethical breeders do. It sends a strong message out about how to recognize irresponsible , unethical breeders. By turning it into a "what a good breeder does vs what a bad one does" it takes away from the thread. I can remember not so long ago one of the members posting in this thread was questioning the very breeder she got her dog from. How quickly that has been forgotten.
Can we see if we can now start practicing the friendlier, kinder Pets some folks are striving for? This would be a wonderful place to start. Thank you.

Could you please explain what exactly was posted in this thread that made it unfriendly?

14+kitties
April 14th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Could you please explain what exactly was posted in this thread that made it unfriendly?

Ummm, don't remember saying this thread was unfriendly. I just would hate to turn it that way. As such - 'nough said. :thumbs up

Shaykeija
April 15th, 2011, 12:17 AM
OK let me break this down.....

Save Shelter dog from dieing...adopt from a shelter

Stay away from money grabbing pieces of crap backyard breeders and puppy mills. YES this includes those cute little fluff balls at the pet stores. They may come disguised as ethical breeders, but they are just out for the money. You will find these lowlife breeders in the newspapers, on the Internet, Craig's list and kiigi, parking lots and flea markets.

MY Bad, my rant.
Nuff said

Love4himies
April 15th, 2011, 07:53 AM
OK let me break this down.....

Save Shelter dog from dieing...adopt from a shelter

Stay away from money grabbing pieces of crap backyard breeders and puppy mills. YES this includes those cute little fluff balls at the pet stores. They may come disguised as ethical breeders, but they are just out for the money. You will find these lowlife breeders in the newspapers, on the Internet, Craig's list and kiigi, parking lots and flea markets.

MY Bad, my rant.
Nuff said

You are right, shay, unethical breeders are getting smarter as the public becomes more and more aware of how to select an "ethical" breeder. They don't care about their dogs/cats so they surely don't care if they are misleading the public.

Sooooo, be safe, adopt from a shelter and you won't have to worry about allowing an unethical breeder to keep on going to produce yet another litter.

BenMax
April 15th, 2011, 07:57 AM
Well said Shay and L4H. Keeping very still as everyone knows where I stand.
Yep..drove some puppymill pups last night to a safe place. Enough said.

Love4himies
April 15th, 2011, 08:02 AM
Well said Shay and L4H. Keeping very still as everyone knows where I stand.
Yep..drove some puppymill pups last night to a safe place. Enough said.

You are an :angel: BenMax :dog::cat:

Goldfields
April 15th, 2011, 11:02 AM
What is being said is not as important as what you won't comment on folks, that in between the breeder and the shelter are lots and lots and lots and lots of irresponsible owners, that keep breeders in business and the shelters flat out trying to save the poor darn dogs they dispose of. Am I wrong in thinking this? Maybe Calgary has the answer, let people have more animals, that way when they have a pug but decide they'd really love a Wolfhound as well, at least they can have both without getting rid of the first one?

Shaykeija
April 15th, 2011, 11:10 AM
i know what you mean..we are allowed only 4 pets per household. No more than 2 dogs. so i have 4 dogs and a cat. I licenced 2 dogs in another town to cover my a$$.
If my dream were to come true, i would have a huge farm for rescue and old and small dogs could live their life out there. (big dogs and pits would be welcome too)

14+kitties
April 15th, 2011, 11:32 AM
What is being said is not as important as what you won't comment on folks, that in between the breeder and the shelter are lots and lots and lots and lots of irresponsible owners, that keep breeders in business and the shelters flat out trying to save the poor darn dogs they dispose of. Am I wrong in thinking this? Maybe Calgary has the answer, let people have more animals, that way when they have a pug but decide they'd really love a Wolfhound as well, at least they can have both without getting rid of the first one?


You are right. In between the breeder and the shelter there are lots of bad owners. But what is a byb's or miller's favourite saying? We're just fulfilling a need. If there weren't so many bad "breeders" popping out dogs of indeterminant health the pet population would not be experiencing the issue is it today. Quite often there is NO owner in between the miller/byb and the shelter. That's because there are more and more millers dumping dogs they are "finished with" unceremoniously wherever they can and, thankfully, more raids on their operation. Those dogs/cats have to go somewhere and where else but to the shelters.
This article is not an argument against ethical breeders. In fact this is an argument for them. :shrug: Why can't we let it go at that?

Goldfields
April 15th, 2011, 12:02 PM
I am not taking the side of breeders at all, 14+, nor am I looking for an argument. It just seems logic to me that if it wasn't for all these rotten owners, there would be no puppy mills. Why would they breed if they couldn't sell them? The people who breed for showing would have their market always, because people enjoy showing and dogs for that must be registered. They aren't blameless though, they cull dogs they think are past showing or breeding, and I personally hate that. If they were made to keep them instead, that'd really slow down their breeding program. Some are in it solely for the number of Ch's they can notch up, so they breed the most, cull the most. Educating your children at school(like ours are here) to grow up knowing how to care for animals, that they have them for the animal's life etc. is a great thing, so hopefully they don't grow up like idiot parents who think dogs/cats/pets of all sorts are just a disposable commodity.

Melinda
April 15th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I think education at the schools is wonderful, twice a year my daughter has the spca come to her class to talk to the children.

Frenchy
April 15th, 2011, 12:34 PM
Whether people buy from a BYB , a pet store , an ethical breeder , it doesn't make a difference for the shelter dog that will die because of it.

Chris21711
April 15th, 2011, 12:36 PM
It just seems logic to me that if it wasn't for all these rotten owners, there would be no puppy mills. Why would they breed if they couldn't sell them?

You should ask a question like that to the woman that surrendered over 140 dogs to the OSPCA 10 days ago....."Why did you breed them" :frustrated:

14+kitties
April 15th, 2011, 12:40 PM
you should ask a question like that to the woman that surrendered over 140 dogs to the ospca 10 days ago....."why did you breed them" :frustrated:

Right on Chris!! Bingo!!!!!

Chris21711
April 15th, 2011, 12:43 PM
I think education at the schools is wonderful, twice a year my daughter has the spca come to her class to talk to the children.

Then they grow up and the majority forget all that they were told :frustrated:

Whether people buy from a BYB , a pet store , an ethical breeder , it doesn't make a difference for the shelter dog that will die because of it.

Amen, Nadine :(

mummummum
April 15th, 2011, 12:52 PM
I am not taking the side of breeders at all, 14+, nor am I looking for an argument. It just seems logic to me that if it wasn't for all these rotten owners, there would be no puppy mills....Educating your children at school(like ours are here) to grow up knowing how to care for animals, that they have them for the animal's life etc. is a great thing, so hopefully they don't grow up like idiot parents who think dogs/cats/pets of all sorts are just a disposable commodity.

Interesting approach GF. I'm all for education! Has it worked? Can you give us some comparative per capita data on the incidence of puppymills/ backyard breeders from whatever Oz's version is of SPCA and Animal Cruelty Investigators? Do you have animal cruelty written into your criminal code? I would love to know the stats on that if so. We are working very hard here in Canada to update our cruelty laws so all info is welcome. The efficacy of childhood education in reducing animal cruelty (inclusive of lowering the rate of BYBers) would be a very interesting read indeed! :thumbs up

Melinda
April 15th, 2011, 12:52 PM
Then they grow up and the majority forget all that they were told :frustrated:



:(
but if my daughter helps reach even one child....then thats one less idiot to grow up and abuse a pet.....you do what you can, we all do, is that not why we lecture, preach and argue in here? I for one give my daughter a thumbs up :thumbs up for her efforts, she could have the firemen instead....

Chris21711
April 15th, 2011, 12:59 PM
but if my daughter helps reach even one child....then thats one less idiot to grow up and abuse a pet.....you do what you can, we all do, is that not why we lecture, preach and argue in here? I for one give my daughter a thumbs up :thumbs up for her efforts, she could have the firemen instead....

I did say the majority.

I too give my Daughter a :thumbs up.....she has been working trying to improve animal welfare for the past 9 years.

Not sure what the "firemen" have to do with it :confused:

Melinda
April 15th, 2011, 01:04 PM
my daughter is single, firemen are sexy*L* all our spca officers are female.....it was a bit of humour injected into a serious subject:crazy:
my daughter doesn't have the room to rescue/foster dogs or cats, but she fosters/rescues guinea pigs and rats *L* My grandson loves them.

Chris21711
April 15th, 2011, 01:13 PM
my daughter is single, firemen are sexy*L* all our spca officers are female.....it was a bit of humour injected into a serious subject:crazy:

Oh, I'm a tad slow on picking up on humour sometimes, especially when it has to do with animals :o

my daughter doesn't have the room to rescue/foster dogs or cats, but she fosters/rescues guinea pigs and rats *L* My grandson loves them.

My Daughter no longer has room to rescue/adopt either, that's why she works full time for animal welfare.

Our OSPCA is the Provincial headquarters....not all officers are female. In fact out of the 5 they have only 2 are.

Love4himies
April 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Whether people buy from a BYB , a pet store , an ethical breeder , it doesn't make a difference for the shelter dog that will die because of it.

:D:thumbs up:highfive:

Love4himies
April 15th, 2011, 01:17 PM
You should ask a question like that to the woman that surrendered over 140 dogs to the OSPCA 10 days ago....."Why did you breed them" :frustrated:

:thumbs up. It's not only owner surrendered animals that end up in shelters

onster
April 15th, 2011, 02:40 PM
mmmmmm I find the wording of the article a bit harsh, but I suppose the reality *is* harsh. Also, to be honest, I've seen a documentary before about dog shows and the breeding involved and was horrified at the health conditions of some of these purebreds. Does getting a purebred from an ethical breeder really equate a healthy pet? Not so sure about that, especially when genetic susceptibility to certain diseases goes hand in hand with desirable traits.

I think the argument that the only way to not kill a shelter animal is to adopt, is somewhat along the lines of the only way to help an orphan is to adopt an orphan. If everyone stopped having children (or breeders stopped breeding) and adopted instead (babies/pets) then there wouldn't be a problem. But can you tell people to stop having children? No. Obviously, there's more involved with children (people want to have something of themselves, or their own flesh and blood etc), but the idea is that sometimes the most ideal solution to a problem really isn't practically applicable. I would tackle breeding ops, where there are filthy conditions and animals are treated simply as a commodity, before I tackled the 'reputable breeders' and smaller scale BYBs (who really love their animals, give lots of love and care etc but aren't really helping the cause).

Melinda
April 15th, 2011, 02:42 PM
our spca only has females, we have a few males that "help" out whenever they need it though

Goldfields
April 28th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Interesting approach GF. I'm all for education! Has it worked? Can you give us some comparative per capita data on the incidence of puppymills/ backyard breeders from whatever Oz's version is of SPCA and Animal Cruelty Investigators? Do you have animal cruelty written into your criminal code? I would love to know the stats on that if so. We are working very hard here in Canada to update our cruelty laws so all info is welcome. The efficacy of childhood education in reducing animal cruelty (inclusive of lowering the rate of BYBers) would be a very interesting read indeed! :thumbs up
It would be a good read 3xm, but on real slow dial up I won't be looking for it. :rolleyes: I can't even download videos without I wait simply ages. If I talk to my Irish Wolfhound breeder friend, I think she was involved in that education program so she may have some answers. I believe it is funded by our Government. Don't know about the criminal code either, only that people involved in animal cruelty get taken to Court. There is a real sicko up north in this State doing shocking things to horses and the Police are definitely/desperately wanting to apprehend him/her.

In a perfect world, chris21711, the woman with the 140 dogs should be banned from ever having another pet, regardless that she surrendered them. I don't believe anyone should have more dogs than they can care for properly, as you would wish your dog to be cared for.
Sorry I didn't answer this earlier btw, I totally missed it.

Chris21711
April 28th, 2011, 01:09 PM
In a perfect world, chris21711, the woman with the 140 dogs should be banned from ever having another pet, regardless that she surrendered them.

We don't live in a perfect world. One needs to do more than this woman to get banned for life. Let's not forget Goldfields, animals are "property" in this country.......What classification do they have in Australia?....since you don't seem to be very well versed in the cruelty laws of your country, out of curiousity it is something that I will be googling.

I don't believe anyone should have more dogs than they can care for properly, as you would wish your dog to be cared for.

Again, we come back to the perfect world.

Sorry I didn't answer this earlier btw, I totally missed it.

No need for sorry, I'm small and can be easily missed.

Goldfields
April 28th, 2011, 08:57 PM
You wrote ...

....since you don't seem to be very well versed in the cruelty laws of your country, out of curiousity it is something that I will be googling.

Good for you, I'm sure you can do that a lot faster than I can, amd I hope you'll let us know what you find. Unfortunately I can't wait for the result, it's shopping day today. (Tedious, boring, can't wait to get home and I haven't even left yet. :) )

Chris21711
April 29th, 2011, 12:22 PM
You wrote ...

....since you don't seem to be very well versed in the cruelty laws of your country, out of curiousity it is something that I will be googling.

Good for you, I'm sure you can do that a lot faster than I can, amd I hope you'll let us know what you find. Unfortunately I can't wait for the result, it's shopping day today. (Tedious, boring, can't wait to get home and I haven't even left yet. :) )

Can't say I understand the point of your post :shrug: