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Dominance Based Trainers!

pattymac
March 11th, 2011, 02:24 PM
What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.

Jim Hall
March 11th, 2011, 02:37 PM
YOU WILLDO WAHT I SAY OR I WILL GrAB YOU AND HURL YOU TO THE GROUND DO IT NOW AND NO BACKTALK DOYA HEAR ME??? i ahve had dogs all of them form the pund and never ever had to use dominance traing

BenMax
March 11th, 2011, 04:48 PM
There are so many different types of trainers with different philosophies and methods.
I have always said to keep an open mind. I always mix it up. I am not a treat trainer..BUT if nothing else works than I most certainly will resort to it. I find it very sad that trainers stick to one method (their method) and not go outside the box. I find it very informative and also enlightening to take different courses or watch different trainers 'do their thing'. I like to incorporate many different ideas and I would never stick to one method..it does not always work.
It is important for those taking courses to feel comfortable about how their trainer are working with their dogs. If something does not sit right with you..then get another.
For me personally, I will at times resort to a more 'dominent' approach if required. Really, it depends on the dog, the issue you are dealing with and the limitations of the dog.
People however are getting alittle too sensitive with a more direct approach to training. Some dogs require a more hands or they may require a harder lined method.
I do not believe in clicker training for obedience. With that said..if I was failing in all other avenues I certainly would try it.
I my opinion all trainers or those that train have something very valuable to share. All dogs are different and the key to success is finding out what the triggers are (if we are dealing with issues) and then finding a remedy to help the dog overcome.
I say 'mix it up' and don't get stuck with training only one way.

pattymac
March 11th, 2011, 06:49 PM
I find it gets all very confusing! I use a clicker, mostly for teaching tricks. I haven't really worked on the obedience type things lately. I would like to once the weather gets to where I can work outside...too cold still!!

I may be moving to a part of the province where there are rattlesnakes...I want to teach Bayley that snakes are to be left alone. She's seen a couple of snakes in her lifetime. One, a big rat snake, hissed at her when she went to sniff it and she backed right off. Now I've heard alot train snake avoidance using an e-collar. I have the collar, just not sure I want to use it, but like some have said, if it's a matter of saving the dog's life then you do what you have to.

Choochi
March 11th, 2011, 06:52 PM
Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.

BenMax
March 11th, 2011, 07:03 PM
Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.

Very true. Just like anything else in life, things evolve. Training is not only a talent but it is intuition. The most important thing about training is not just the training itself but understanding the pre-dominent breed in the dog, his/her limitations, capacity to understand, and how or what is responsive to the dog. Understanding behaviour is the most important thing to identify..and then train based on this understanding and also by appreciating the dogs qualities. All this must also fall within the confines of the capacity of the handler who will be following through with the advice and the training suggestions provided...(does this make sense?)

Sylvie
March 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
Benmax, I totally agree with you. If you don't understand the dog, then it doesn't matter what you do. Each dog is different . My four each have a different personality, ranging from soft right up to arrogant. Each needs their own brand of training. :thumbs up

I also agree that some people think they know how to train just by watching t.v. or listening to other people. It is really a hands on learning from the dogs that makes training a success. Am I making sense???

GalaxiesKuklos
March 11th, 2011, 10:38 PM
What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.


Maybe they only have access to books from the 1930s?

GalaxiesKuklos
March 11th, 2011, 10:40 PM
I am not a treat trainer..Nobody is, they were invented by the jerk trainers to demean a principle (not method) they don't understand.

BenMax
March 12th, 2011, 06:50 AM
For special needs dogs (deaf for example)..treat training or reward training is a good method.
Also - don't forget...custom dogs are actually trained with a reward (usually a ball or toy). Their basic training however is not reward motivated..it's real hands on work.
So in this example you actually see two methods of training used for obedience and integrating a job.

tenderfoot
March 14th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I agree the 'positive' trainers can be some of the most vicious people when dealing with other people than many of the trainers who use 'other' methods with their dogs. Did that make sense? I was on a 'positive only' forum for about a year and have never witnessed such arrogance and rudeness in my life. Yet a local man who runs a shock collar training company is a very nice person, I shudder at the things he considers training a dog but he is nice to people. Go figure, the world is a crazy place.
Just be sure that you can sleep well at the end of your day knowing you have done the best for your dog.
Many methods will work with the majority of dogs, but if you have been unfair to your dog then you need to rethink your methods.
Personally I don't think anyone can guarantee 100% predictability with any dog. Heck, I can't promise that I will perform perfectly 100% of the time. :shrug:

pattymac
March 14th, 2011, 01:12 PM
Good point Tenderfoot..we expect our dogs to be perfect..perfect stay, perfect recall etc!

If you've been unfair to your dog..look out..they are truly one who could bite you in the butt :)

I use different things too, I'm not always 100% positive based. I will give a correction, especially if she's just being a total i-dot and not paying attention. I do make exceptions, if she's being silly cause she's excited, I wait. Doesn't take her long to calm down anymore. I guess it all boils down to knowing your dog!

millitntanimist
March 14th, 2011, 03:06 PM
I have 2 problems with the "dominance" philosophy. The first (and really the most important) is that it is based on some terrible and outdated science. The second is that it can be the vehicle for some very harsh P+ because the only solution to a "dominant" dog not responding to your "dominance" is an escalation of your punishment (I am speaking generally here, I know that there are some trainers for whom this is absolutely not the case, but in my experience they are few and far between).

I also find it uncomfortable that a large number of people who have no knowledge of dog behavior or learning theory seem to grab onto it because it is such a simple concept to digest and it puts the reader in a "natural" place of superiority. ;)

This concept of "dominance" actually has very little to do with dogs, but rather, is a natural byproduct of our colonialist heritage. Imposing a social hierarchy and working desperately to maintain our position at the top of said hierarchy (which is always in danger of being toppled) is nothing new.

I am reading a great book ("At Home, A History of Private Life) that contains excerpts from some hard-line etiquette books published in the 1800's. The chapters regarding one's behavior towards servants and slaves (and in some cases, women) read frighteningly like many manuals on dog training, stating things like "they crave your natural leadership," and that "you must always show your superiority (usually through punishment or the excision of your privileges flagrantly in their presence) or your servant/slave will attempt to take power and overthrow you." There are excerpts discussing a servant's/slave's inherent "wildness" and as such they must be treated more harshly to keep them subdued. There are even sections on what position your servant/slave should take walking with you in public and such warnings as "if they will hold your gaze for more than a moment they are showing their defiance," thus you must re-assert your dominance.

As a student of history, I am always amazed by our inability to develop new ideas, and at our utter ignorance in thinking that we have :rolleyes:

pattymac
March 14th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Wow!! That book must be a real eye-opener! I'll have to have a look for it, sounds like a very interesting read!

Stinkycat
March 23rd, 2011, 03:17 PM
Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.

akaJenT
March 23rd, 2011, 03:25 PM
I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.

BenMax
March 23rd, 2011, 03:48 PM
Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.

I actually like what you wrote. The only thing I will however challenge is the thought that dominance in dogs is rare. For those that work in shelters or rescues, we see more cases of dominance than I guess a trainer will get. BTW - I am NOT randomly labelling a dog as dominant..just so that we are clear on this.
As far as preparing a dominant dog up for adoption, the approach most times is the quick method based on what the dog responds to immediately. Unfortunately at times there is no time to get a dog ready using only positive reinforcement. Infact, in situations like dominence, it could ultimately cost a dog it's life as the shelters start to fill up. 'Keep the good..unload the bad'. I do not believe in bad dogs..just dogs that require more work..and time just does not permit this.
If you have the time, and the resources, and the clientele, then yes...great way to teach through positive training.:thumbs up

Kudos to you.:thumbs up

Melinda
March 23rd, 2011, 03:55 PM
I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.

can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.

akaJenT
March 23rd, 2011, 04:03 PM
can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.

If you have a submissive dog, you'll never need to. Mine is a huge husky/rott mix, very alpha and always testing the limits. I'm not as familiar with huskies as I'd like to be but I don't think they're known for gentleness. Rottweilers are GREAT family dogs and I'm hoping he takes after that breed.

I think Rufio might actually try to bite me the next time we have a showdown on whether he gets rinsed off the next time I take him to the bay where he jumps up to his neck in quicksand-type scum that reeks and wears like black tar. Last time I caved after a slight rinse and he just had to stay outside a few days. Next time I plan to put on his harness and rope him off like my friend does with her horse so I can clean him up and let him inside...if I ever take him there again, still not sure. He just loves it so much though.

Melinda
March 23rd, 2011, 04:58 PM
but what is the reason for growling into his/her neck??? whats it suppose to do?

BenMax
March 23rd, 2011, 05:04 PM
I have to tell you...I would not be flipping my Anatolean and growling in his neck anytime soon. I am not sure what this would prove and I really would not recommend doing this. What would be the benefits of doing this? I have never heard of doing this as a measure to correct a behaviour.

Melinda
March 23rd, 2011, 05:11 PM
oh, so you're saying BenMax that growling in a dogs neck is a correction? like a punishment sort of???

SamIam
March 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
I have to tell you...I would not be flipping my Anatolean and growling in his neck anytime soon. I am not sure what this would prove and I really would not recommend doing this. What would be the benefits of doing this? I have never heard of doing this as a measure to correct a behaviour.

It started in the 60s/70s where the theory was to gain your dog's respect you had to assert yourself as the pack leader by acting like a dominant dog. It is based on you being a social companion to your dog, rather than being a provider of food and privileges; where in fact you are both.

Acting like a dominant dog and trying to flip your Anatolian on his back would probably either prove that he is more successful at being a dog than you are, or would prove to you that dogs really can laugh out loud.

BenMax
March 23rd, 2011, 05:15 PM
oh, so you're saying BenMax that growling in a dogs neck is a correction? like a punishment sort of???

I am not sure Melinda. That is what I would like to know. I think this is one of those 'treat them like the pack would'. I honestly have never heard of this before.:shrug: To put your face near a dog that has questionable intentions (still not determined nor confirmed in this case), I would NEVER get up that close and personal. Years ago I had almost half my face bitten off saving a dog. Learnt my lesson big time and have still existing puncture marks to prove it. Not pretty.

Melinda
March 23rd, 2011, 05:33 PM
yeah I'm with you BenMax, I don't think I'd be putting my face that close to a dog after flipping him,

SamIam *L* yeah, I can see a huge dog laughing at us trying to do just that *L*

BenMax
March 23rd, 2011, 05:54 PM
yeah I'm with you BenMax, I don't think I'd be putting my face that close to a dog after flipping him,

SamIam *L* yeah, I can see a huge dog laughing at us trying to do just that *L*

I weigh 110lbs. The Anatolian is 155 lbs. Now I am certainly not the sharpest pencil in the box...but I would not want to be red in the face up against him. I hardly think he would laugh...put me over his knee...absolutely followed by a 'silly Girl'!

babymomma
March 23rd, 2011, 06:36 PM
my .2 cents .

I do not like the "dominance theory" my dogs know i am a human. They know i am not a dog and they do not treat me as i am a dog.
Its not that i dont agree that sometimes, you have to take control of your dog, because they tend to think they can do whatever, but it is not because they are trying to "dominate me" or be a "packleader"
I certainly will never agree with the neck jabs and the alpha rolling. And i will NEVER use anything but positive reinforcment on a dog showing agression. Ive done it once before and now realize why its so bad. It set us back months on training.

If you use agression to treat agression, the agression will only get worse.
I know dogs arent humans, but this is the way i see it .

Say you are mad at somebody, and you try to talk to the about it but you are so mad you start yelling, well that other person is likely going to yell back because they get defensive and angry as well. They start yelling and that p*sses you off even more so you start yelling louder and it escalates. Its an endless cycle until somebody gets mad enough that they just leave. And both are left fuming.

You try to alpharole a dog, or give it a neck jab, or whatever other techniques that could be considered agressive or uncomofortable for a dog, the dog is likely going to get worse.

Now using cesar millan as an example, he uses these, and things ALWAYS get worse with the dog, it escalates into a big explosion from the dog then BAMM, the dog is suddenly fixed.Problem solved right? erm, no. It isnt. The problem has been masked, a sort of "sweeping it under the rug" situation. The dogs frustration, causes the dogs to shut down. I dont know if you've ever watched the show with the volume off so you can recognize the dogs body language instead of listening to all the carp CM is pumping out. These are NOT happy dogs.
There is a reason the disclaimer comes on the t.v before the show starts "Do NOT try these techniques at home"
Dont get me wrong, I thought CM was a god at one point. But certain things in life that i have experienced has taught me otherwise. Actually learning more about it from MANY experienced trainers has helped me.

That said, when im training, i use a scattered collar pop, but its with certain dogs. Certain dogs need it, not because they try to "dominate me" but because they are more, Hardheaded and "stubborn" i will say. They need little more hands on type stuff. Take keely for example, if i try a collar pop on her, she shuts down immediently. which means training session over because my dog has officaially shut down.

Training should be a FUN and enjoyable situation for all thats involved. A dog shouldnt be made uncomfortable.

I am a positive based trainer, but i do not always use treats, but there is ALWAYS a reward for good behaviour. Your dog should WANT to work for you and want to please you. How else can you honestly expect them to want to if rewards arent envolved? Sure they will do it if trained a different way, but in my experience the dog is not close to half as eager to please you.

Treats are used in our actual training sessions, time that i take out of my day specifically to work on tricks, or recall, down stays etc.

But its not like my dogs dont listen to me the other 80 % of the time when we are outside and i want them to come back, they certainly do not look back when i call them and be like "You haz no treats silly human, i dun want no parts of this" . My dogs all come bounding back happy as clams if i call them. They get no treats but they sure enjoy a "good dog" and a pat on the head.

Thats just what i have experienced and what they have taught me.
Thanks for reading
Now... Click/treat! :D for actually getting through it.

Ask me something if it is unclear. I LOVE discussions about training :D

BenMax
March 23rd, 2011, 06:43 PM
Babymomma this is a perfect example of people who are considering training and only having one method to work with. Training methods should not be generic. Through time and experience you will see that you will need to mix things up based on the individual dog.

Click/treat....not unless I have to...but that goes to show that though I am not into this method..I would never turn my back on it either.

Criosphynx
March 24th, 2011, 12:22 AM
I use one method. The same as everyone uses. Whether they know it or not




learning theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_theory_(education))




I just only use two of the four quadrants (http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/ocguide.htm) of it....ok, three, occasionally.


"positive" trainers vary, in both results and methods.. Can you get reliable behaviors across the board all the time with only PR (as in only reward good behavior, and ignore the rest). No. You need to used Negative punishment (removing som'thing the dog wants) premack (do this thing you don't like, and I'll let you do that thing you like) management and redirections (you are not having access to that thing yet, or "do this instead) none of those things involve physically harming or "making uncomfortable" the dog.


What I do NOT do is physically punish the dog. I do not scold or intimidate the dog.I do NOT use NRMs (no reward markers, uh uhs, "nos" etc) studies have shown these things are not needed to learn, and can impair learning.



I do teach a SOLID foundation. Hand targeting is taught first. Doggie zen and its yer choice next...all behaviors are methodically proofed for distraction and duration (if needed)

Default behviors. My dogs do not need cues to look at me, leave it, loose leash, etc etc...too many people put these things on cue...teach attention as a DEFAULT and you will have a different dog.


I understand the mechanics of every nuance of behavior. THAT is why I can use "PR only" (which never purely is PR) with massive success. I've taken the time to master it...It takes time, practice and skill to develop. Many seminars and books. Many hundreds of hours reading studies and watching videos...6 dogs and counting (first dog was traditional trained, others in between and my 6th dog, my reactive, high drive mess when I got him, has never had one correction in 2 years (hes two) and its as close to "perfect" as I expect from an animal)


There are many methods within the "pr" umbrella. If you can master learning theory, and all its tricks, teach the dog proofed foundation behaviors, and manage while they learn its VERY VERY possible to teach using no force or intimidation, and have reliable behaviors.... the retriever people say you MUST force fetch to get a reliable retrieve. If I can teach a RR to CHIHUAHUAS with clicker training. Labs do not need to be FF.

If zoos can teach hyenas to willingly allow blood draws from the jugular using clicker training...the limits are endless :)

So my point is don't judge PR trainers when you are viewing the noobs and inbetweeners....watch those that have mastered it. You wouldn't look at kids learning a violin and say, yup, thats as good as it gets.... :p ;) you'd go to the symphony.

Stinkycat
March 24th, 2011, 12:34 AM
So my point is don't judge PR trainers when you are viewing the noobs and inbetweeners....watch those that have mastered it. You wouldn't look at kids learning a violin and say, yup, thats as good as it gets.... :p ;) you'd go to the symphony.

Wonderfully said!:thumbs up

erykah1310
March 24th, 2011, 12:46 AM
:highfive: Criosphynx:thumbs up
Ditto to everything you said.
Learning method is also what I use, each of my dogs require different techniques to achieve a certain result, one method only on 6 very different breeds and types of dogs just doesnt work.

Criosphynx
March 24th, 2011, 12:52 AM
lol, I was afraid I'd get tomatos thrown at me...


it is still early I suppose:p



:dog:

growler~GateKeeper
March 24th, 2011, 04:18 AM
I'm not as familiar with huskies as I'd like to be but I don't think they're known for gentleness.

Siberian Huskies are very well known for being dogs of gentle temperments. They are playful, loving, gentle, family oriented dogs, most are friendly with strangers & while some may be wary of strangers they are not watch dogs.

Sibes are intellegent & fast learners they can be willful during training if they don't see the need to constantly repeat a command they already know. It takes time, patience and a gentle but firm, confident & consistant handler to properly train a Sibe. They need mental as well as physical exercise/stimulation or they may become destructive or escape artists from sheer boredom.

Some info on Sibes here:
http://www.siberianhuskyclubofcanada.com/
http://www.shca.org/shcahp2b.htm
http://www.southernsiberian.com/about_siberian_huskies.html

BenMax
March 24th, 2011, 06:17 AM
lol, I was afraid I'd get tomatos thrown at me...


it is still early I suppose:p



:dog:

Not at all...very well said. I can't punch holes into that at all.:thumbs up
The Key to what you said was 'watch those that have mastered it'. I keep saying and pushing is that the only way to learn is to keep an open mind. I cannot say that I would completely follow you as I also incorporate other methods as well. I personally could not be a one way trainer. But you have me very curious and I really wish I could attend one of your lessons. I really mean that.

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 11:08 AM
yeah I'm with you BenMax, I don't think I'd be putting my face that close to a dog after flipping him,

SamIam *L* yeah, I can see a huge dog laughing at us trying to do just that *L*

This is why I hesitated and this is what he senses, that I have a little fear of him. If I had had him since he was a pup, it would be clear in his mind who was in charge, but since I didn't, and it's clear to me that he's challenging me on this, I need to take control and growling in his neck is just telling him in a language that HE understands that he's not to challenge me.

This was invaluable when I had a HUGE Rottweiler that growled at my son when he was learning to crawl. The SECOND he did that, I flipped him and let him know there was NO WAY that was going to happen. He never did that again and turned out to be an amazing nurturing protective dog that watched over all the neighborhood kids, especially when they toddled "through the woods" of our joined back yards, "hunting for bears".

If he had continued to growl and threaten, he would have been gone. It was imperative he realized he had to quit that fast.

GalaxiesKuklos
March 24th, 2011, 02:21 PM
I use one method. The same as everyone uses. Whether they know it or not




learning theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_theory_(education))




I just only use two of the four quadrants (http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/ocguide.htm) of it....ok, three, occasionally.


"positive" trainers vary, in both results and methods.. Can you get reliable behaviors across the board all the time with only PR (as in only reward good behavior, and ignore the rest). No. You need to used Negative punishment (removing som'thing the dog wants) premack (do this thing you don't like, and I'll let you do that thing you like) management and redirections (you are not having access to that thing yet, or "do this instead) none of those things involve physically harming or "making uncomfortable" the dog.


What I do NOT do is physically punish the dog. I do not scold or intimidate the dog.I do NOT use NRMs (no reward markers, uh uhs, "nos" etc) studies have shown these things are not needed to learn, and can impair learning.



I do teach a SOLID foundation. Hand targeting is taught first. Doggie zen and its yer choice next...all behaviors are methodically proofed for distraction and duration (if needed)

Default behviors. My dogs do not need cues to look at me, leave it, loose leash, etc etc...too many people put these things on cue...teach attention as a DEFAULT and you will have a different dog.


I understand the mechanics of every nuance of behavior. THAT is why I can use "PR only" (which never purely is PR) with massive success. I've taken the time to master it...It takes time, practice and skill to develop. Many seminars and books. Many hundreds of hours reading studies and watching videos...6 dogs and counting (first dog was traditional trained, others in between and my 6th dog, my reactive, high drive mess when I got him, has never had one correction in 2 years (hes two) and its as close to "perfect" as I expect from an animal)


There are many methods within the "pr" umbrella. If you can master learning theory, and all its tricks, teach the dog proofed foundation behaviors, and manage while they learn its VERY VERY possible to teach using no force or intimidation, and have reliable behaviors.... the retriever people say you MUST force fetch to get a reliable retrieve. If I can teach a RR to CHIHUAHUAS with clicker training. Labs do not need to be FF.

If zoos can teach hyenas to willingly allow blood draws from the jugular using clicker training...the limits are endless :)

So my point is don't judge PR trainers when you are viewing the noobs and inbetweeners....watch those that have mastered it. You wouldn't look at kids learning a violin and say, yup, thats as good as it gets.... :p ;) you'd go to the symphony.

Well said, too bad I can't give you a "like' or "rep" points for this. I find that most people who deride non-aversive training are really admitting to their own incompetence but blaming the tool when they should be blaming the craftsman.

PS. The only thing I would change in your post would be changing method to principle. The principles of learning are universal, the methods are the application of those principles.

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 03:58 PM
I don't doubt that your methods work, if they didn't, you wouldn't be using them. But I suspect that many methods would work if one is willing to put countless hours into it...hours that many dog owners just don't have because some of us have to work most of the day.

I don't claim to be an authority on dogs but I know a few things about fads, especially in child rearing. One of the biggest fads complete with mountains of books promoting it, is that kids should never be spanked.

:laughing:

I worked 6 years at Mental Health and all the therapists that taught that insane theory had no kids of their own. They also seemed to think all kids start out like a blank page and would react the same. They don't. What works with one kid often doesn't work with another. "No spanking" doesn't work at all and it's proved by the current generations that grew up under that fad. Rebellion has runamuk and countless cities have teachers afraid to teach classes.

I suspect dogs are much the same way. They don't all react the same to the same circumstances. And they ALL would act better if they got consistent interaction often and could easily understand what so many of us are trying to tell them in so many ways.

I think they understand being flipped on their backs and growled at when they misbehave. It's what commonly happens in nature, they easily understand it and remember it and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest.

Of course my sweet little Bell has never needed that, she's always tried to please. Rufio, though......lol. Gotta get that beast's attention.

sugarcatmom
March 24th, 2011, 05:45 PM
I think they understand being flipped on their backs and growled at when they misbehave. It's what commonly happens in nature, they easily understand it and remember it and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest.


Oh really? You might want to read these articles then:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

mummummum
March 24th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Another interesting perspective (short article) on respect and dominance.

http://lifeasahuman.com/2011/pets/blunt-force-trauma-canine-reality/

BenMax
March 24th, 2011, 06:10 PM
Very interesting article MX3. I am curious actually what the word 'dominence training' actually really means.

I am confused. (not surprising):laughing:

I was watching the interaction between my GSD and the puppy. His mouth was gentle, he would use his weight to push the puppy from him when she got too 'rough'. He also gently puts her whole neck into his mouth. You can see his gentleness in holding her still until she settled, and then he released. Again using his body to redirect her next 'plan of attack'. And it starts all over.

Within minutes the GSD turns towards the Anatolian. The clash of the Titans. Both on hind quarters, neck holding, chest smashing, random pawing to get the other off balance with the final holding the neck ...with the release and the play continues. All this supervised as both are sore losers.

All this to say that everything observed using the GSD as an example, is a dog that uses negative, positive and positive negative, and finally dominence. Interesting thing is that the GSD adjusted his tactics to fit the situation based on the size of the dogs he interacted with, and his ability to understand the difference in their size and most probably the age.

That is why I say that every tool can be used in order to suit the dog and the situation at hand. I appreciate that this is dog on dog interaction, and we as humans can learn by watching such displays but we cannot mimic them effectively...obviously. It gives you the appreciation that the dog will adjust to all circumstances...something that humans must also take into consideration when training, evaluating and interacting with canines.

millitntanimist
March 24th, 2011, 06:12 PM
I think they understand being flipped on their backs and growled at when they misbehave. It's what commonly happens in nature, they easily understand it and remember it and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest.

I don't think that's true.
In nature, animals very rarely get involved in real physical fights because of the risk of injury (which is a death sentence). 99% of observed fight behavior is posturing - which means that one animal voluntarily goes to ground to submit to the other's superior strength. When one animal physically throws the other down, it is preparing to kill it.
By grabbing your dog and throwing it to the ground, you are initiating the equivalent of (what would be) a fight to the death.

I know someone who has had 3 rescue dogs and all of them have developed severe aggression because of these methods.
This person was very loving towards their dogs in other respects and the dogs were treated like family - given great amounts of exercise, positive social interaction, and structure.
Over the course of their lives, two of them began to show some aggressive behavior towards other dogs and one began showing aggression to people. This aggression was corrected with alpha rolls and growling/shouting.
The dog who was human-aggressive has since been euthanized for attacking and biting 2 people.
The larger of the dogs who was dog-aggressive (the smaller is a chihuahua mix and not corrected as often) has lost any of the warning signs that would normally pre-curse and attack. It is very scary to watch. One minute she is happily sitting next to you, the next she lunges and grabs the other by the neck (pinning him down) snarling while the boy screams. There are absolutely no warning signs. None.
In addition, they have both also started showing some aggression to people.

If the dogs understood why they were being corrected, it would have stopped the behavior.

Dogs know that we are not dogs. They do not treat us like other dogs - and we wouldn't want them to.

SamIam
March 24th, 2011, 06:15 PM
I think they understand being flipped on their backs and growled at when they misbehave. It's what commonly happens in nature, they easily understand it and remember it and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest.

To a certain extent, yes, but what you do to flip a dog probably involves your hands and at the same time neglects certain aspects of a natural competition between two dogs. A second problem is that if you challenge your dog and LOSE, you have just proven HE's boss, not you! There are a lot of reasons you might lose, size of dog, speed of reaction, agility, mobility, length of muzzle, instinct, and the fact that he has been practicing doglike behaviours every moment since he was born.

Dogs - with the possible exception of those hand-raised since birth - do know the difference between a dog and a human, and are capable of responding to human behaviours and learning our language (body and vocal).

There are certain advantages to being human that can be used to trigger natural reactions in a dog. Height for instance: when your dog is on the floor and you are standing up your dog sees this as an expression of dominance on your behalf. Grabbing a dog's muzzle with your hand and applying light pressure and restraint - NOT grabbing it with your mouth in order to simulate the exact behaviour of another dog. Meal-feeding or nothing-in-life-is-free feeding. The use of personal space - walking into your tog to get him to back off accompanied by you talking in a growly voice - all done with your face safely higher than him (caution with some dogs on this, which you will know from the initial evaluation). And there are many others.

To me, the best way to express dominance and leadership to your dog is usually by combining an understanding of his natural behaviour and instincts with your natural abilities and advantages, rather than by getting down with him and pretending to be a dog, which he knows and understands you are not.

BenMax
March 24th, 2011, 06:20 PM
millitntanimist, your example is good. Thank you.:thumbs up


But from what I mainly deal with and from what I see (shelter dogs mostly) is that the dogs may be loved to pieces, but the dog has not learnt to respect their handlers or other dogs. Respect is the biggest part of training, the dog must feel comfortable to have enough of this to trust the handler. Respect and Trust is the foundation to successfully train a dog and also overcome unwanted behaviour.

Alpha rolling a dog is NOT teaching the dog either of these very important ingredients. I personally think that the dog is belittled and therefore loses interest and respect for their owners.

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 06:36 PM
Oh really? You might want to read these articles then:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

like I said, there are mountains of books by credentialed "professionals" claiming that spanking a child only breeds violence. The article you posted was "based" on an artical by Dr. Dunbar, and yet it's got a lot of claims that look exactly opposite of what I've observed through my life. I lived 22 years in the mountains and had a dog that ran with a pack...just because someone has a credential and someone bases an article on something he wrote, then slaps it on the internet, is no reason to disbelieve what you've witnessed and trade it for beliefs of the credentialed professional.

After seeing what they teach kids in public school thanks to our academic elite and their twisted ideas, a degree is more like a badge of warning..."CAUTION: I have been exposed to liberal think tanks and excelled in regurgitating their social agenda"

Just my .02

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 06:43 PM
Very interesting article MX3. I am curious actually what the word 'dominence training' actually really means.

I am confused. (not surprising):laughing:

I was watching the interaction between my GSD and the puppy. His mouth was gentle, he would use his weight to push the puppy from him when she got too 'rough'. He also gentle puts her whole neck into his mouth. You can see his gentleness in holding her still until she settled, and then he released. Again using his body to redirect her next 'plan of attack'. And it starts all over.

Within minutes the GSD turns towards the Anatolian. The clash of the Titans. Both on hind quarters, neck holding, chest smashing, random pawing to get the other off balance with the final holding the neck ...with the release and the play continues. All this supervised as both are sore losers.

All this to say that everything observed using the GSD as an example, is a dog that uses negative, positive and positive negative, and finally dominence. Interesting thing is that the GSD adjusted his tactics to fit the situation based on the size of the dogs he interacted with, and his ability to understand the difference in their size and most probably the age.

That is why I say that every tool can be used in order to suit the dog and the situation at hand. I appreciate that this is dog on dog interaction, and we as humans can learn by watching such displays but we cannot mimic them effectively...obviously. It gives you the appreciation that the dog will adjust to all circumstances...something that humans must also take into consideration when training, evaluating and interacting with canines.

:clap: excellent description of how dogs interact! Thanks! I've been watching my two socialize a lot and it really is amazing the subtleness and signals.

BenMax
March 24th, 2011, 06:50 PM
:clap: excellent description of how dogs interact! Thanks! I've been watching my two socialize a lot and it really is amazing the subtleness and signals.

It is. If you actually watch them, read the language, then it gives you a wonderful understanding on how to approach certain issues. The only time I saw aggression is when one lost the play battle. All I ever have to do change their path is to redirect it by saying 'Hey' and pointing to their mats. They recover from the negative interaction very quickly and walk through the door together like nothing happened. All is forgiven.
With humans however it is not forgiven if they are roughed up. They become fearful and this can possibly flourish into other problem areas.
What dogs do to dogs, people cannot effectively pass on the same 'message'. It just will not work and infact can do more harm than good.

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 06:56 PM
I don't think that's true.
In nature, animals very rarely get involved in real physical fights because of the risk of injury (which is a death sentence). 99% of observed fight behavior is posturing - which means that one animal voluntarily goes to ground to submit to the other's superior strength. When one animal physically throws the other down, it is preparing to kill it.

There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I don't think we're in disagreement. That's probably why my Rott never growled at my infant again. If what you say is true, then my Rott showed by submitting that he saw me as the leader, which is my goal with my Husky. He got the message which is what I wanted to happen

By grabbing your dog and throwing it to the ground, you are initiating the equivalent of (what would be) a fight to the death. And maybe you're right that he reacts different to humans because he knows I'm not a dog, but I still think it communicates the seriousness of the offense.

I know someone who has had 3 rescue dogs and all of them have developed severe aggression because of these methods.

How can you tell with a rescue dog that it's why they developed severe aggression? We had a rescue dog, some said he looked like one of those wild Australian dogs, a dingo, he was beautiful. We had him for two weeks and did nothing but love on him. Then one day I was cuddling a 2 year old in my lap, put the child down, stepped aside with a friend for a second and we both looked up as we saw the dingo lunge for the child's throat. We both screamed NO and he stopped and the child wasn't hurt but we took the dingo back to the shelter and told them what happened.

This person was very loving towards their dogs in other respects and the dogs were treated like family - given great amounts of exercise, positive social interaction, and structure.
Over the course of their lives, two of them began to show some aggressive behavior towards other dogs and one began showing aggression to people. This aggression was corrected with alpha rolls and growling/shouting.
The dog who was human-aggressive has since been euthanized for attacking and biting 2 people.
The larger of the dogs who was dog-aggressive (the smaller is a chihuahua mix and not corrected as often) has lost any of the warning signs that would normally pre-curse and attack. It is very scary to watch. One minute she is happily sitting next to you, the next she lunges and grabs the other by the neck (pinning him down) snarling while the boy screams. There are absolutely no warning signs. None.
In addition, they have both also started showing some aggression to people. Yep, exactly the behavior I was talking about. And why I said it's unfortunate I didn't have my Husky's since they were pups.

If the dogs understood why they were being corrected, it would have stopped the behavior.

Dogs know that we are not dogs. They do not treat us like other dogs - and we wouldn't want them to.

I think we're a lot on the same page. I just think imitating some of their behavior still gets the message across.

akaJenT
March 24th, 2011, 06:58 PM
It is. If you actually watch them, read the language, then it gives you a wonderful understanding on how to approach certain issues. The only time I saw aggression is when one lost the play battle. All I ever have to do change their path is to redirect it by saying 'Hey' and pointing to their mats. They recover from the negative interaction very quickly and walk through the door together like nothing happened. All is forgiven.
With humans however it is not forgiven if they are roughed up. They become fearful and this can possibly flourish into other problem areas.
What dogs do to dogs, people cannot effectively pass on the same 'message'. It just will not work and infact can do more harm than good.

I was with you right up to the end. I think it does pass on the message, and putting them on their back and growling isn't roughing them up, so I don't quite understand the disconnect?

BenMax
March 24th, 2011, 07:03 PM
I was with you right up to the end. I think it does pass on the message, and putting them on their back and growling isn't roughing them up, so I don't quite understand the disconnect?

This works in the dog world, but not the human dog world. The message is not the same because the way the dog is taken down is not the same. Let's not forget that since our unspoken communication is not the same..the actual message of intent is not transmitted from human to dog. It is just dog gets flipped and held. The dog is thinking "what the heck???'.
Just look at the expression on the dogs face if you do this. Also, look at the eyes, the tail and the legs.
Most dogs will almost take on the fetal position. Fear. Not respect.

Criosphynx
March 24th, 2011, 09:31 PM
Not at all...very well said. I can't punch holes into that at all.:thumbs up
The Key to what you said was 'watch those that have mastered it'. I keep saying and pushing is that the only way to learn is to keep an open mind. I cannot say that I would completely follow you as I also incorporate other methods as well. I personally could not be a one way trainer. But you have me very curious and I really wish I could attend one of your lessons. I really mean that.

Thank you. I must admit I wasn't expecting that sort of reply! Glad to see we can discuss this openmindedly :)

I just feel too many people judge "positive only" trainers by the few people they see doing it incorrectly, or doing it poorly. The people doing it 'well" are often not out in public, they are world famous trainers, many working in zoos and aquaria, out of view. Or people like me and many of my online friends, who are in rescue or don't want to compete with dogs, so once again, out of the limelight. I rescue special needs dogs, only 2 of my 5 dogs are physically sound. One is elderly, and the other is a pit bull who still has potential if I want to use it. I was training the reactive dog for agility and he was diagnosed with luxating patella (both knees) so we'll have to go after som'thing different to show a reactive rescue can be trained with PR and still title.... sorry OT a bit.


This was invaluable when I had a HUGE Rottweiler that growled at my son when he was learning to crawl. The SECOND he did that, I flipped him and let him know there was NO WAY that was going to happen. He never did that again and turned out to be an amazing nurturing protective dog that watched over all the neighborhood kids, especially when they toddled "through the woods" of our joined back yards, "hunting for bears".

If he had continued to growl and threaten, he would have been gone. It was imperative he realized he had to quit that fast.

yes, you supressed the growling behavior. This had two possible outcomes

dog never growls again, never bites

or

dog never growls and begins to bite without warning

the first one is a product of a dog that would have not biten anyway, and the second is a what you hear about on the news. "the dog bit without warning". To be honest, you did yourself a dangerous disservice. Your dog could have easily been in the second catagory.

Well said, too bad I can't give you a "like' or "rep" points for this. I find that most people who deride non-aversive training are really admitting to their own incompetence but blaming the tool when they should be blaming the craftsman.

PS. The only thing I would change in your post would be changing method to principle. The principles of learning are universal, the methods are the application of those principles.

Hahah thank you... forgive my mush mush of terms. I like yours better.

like I said, there are mountains of books by credentialed "professionals" claiming that spanking a child only breeds violence. The article you posted was "based" on an artical by Dr. Dunbar, and yet it's got a lot of claims that look exactly opposite of what I've observed through my life. I lived 22 years in the mountains and had a dog that ran with a pack...just because someone has a credential and someone bases an article on something he wrote, then slaps it on the internet, is no reason to disbelieve what you've witnessed and trade it for beliefs of the credentialed professional.

Just my .02

you forget that these professionals you so readily scoff at have forgotten more about dogs that many of us can every hope to know. They HAVE experience. Often 1000x more that the average person and more than you I'd wager (not a jab, just saying). Jean donaldson worked with hundreds if not thousands of dogs at the SF SPCA and she holds the belief that alpha rolls and growling suppression are not a good idea, and downright harmful. She holds a PhD as does Dunbar ON TOP of that experience, not in spite of it.




as far as spanking. Not sure what to say to that. Do you know what "fallout" is? A method can "work" but thats not always the objective...there is falllout to punishment. Sure I can beat a dog with a brick (or a kid) to keep them quiet...OR I can reward them for being quiet when I ask. Both methods "work". But one has fallout.

Stinkycat
March 24th, 2011, 09:58 PM
I have to add in one thing about the way that other dogs correct one another.

A mother dog will correct her pups behaviour by pulling their ear, grabbing and holding a pup's snout ect. This is because she's a dog and she knows her pups, and sometimes a mother dog will accidently kill her pups (I've read about it and heard it).

Dogs communicate the only way they know how, physically. If they could talk it out in complex terms and use devices and such, they probably would correct other dogs in another way. But they can't so they are doing what is natural to them, using the only body parts they can (teeth and body).

We're humans, there's a better way to train and it's been proven to be much more effective. But if you want the "quick fix" then people can jab and poke their dogs, don't go crying and saying "it was out of nowhere!" when he or she finally bites you in defense.:evil:

akaJenT
March 25th, 2011, 01:34 PM
(dramatic sigh) lol

As I previously wrote,

With a rescue dog I did nothing but love on it, THAT was the dog that went for the throat of a child with no warning.

With a dog that I had since a pup, I growled in his throat and he got the message there was no negotiation about growling at my infant...and (gasp) he was smart enough to figure out that included actual attacks...

With the incredibly smart monster dog that I have now, it was scarey to try that on him, I agree it was risky (which someone else wisely wrote) but so far it's worked again. As for that being "fear" and not "respect", I disagree again, because he doesn't behave in fear of me at all, but he appears to know his limits (so far)

heh, if I start typing like thjiis, tjhenm we'lkl knooow I placced a badd bet....

http://www.blessedcause.org/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

SamIam
March 25th, 2011, 01:48 PM
Jen, do you have an overall leadership program of other things you do as well with your dog?

akaJenT
March 25th, 2011, 06:22 PM
Jen, do you have an overall leadership program of other things you do as well with your dog?

Overall leadership program?

uh....suuuuUUUuuure.....

SamIam
March 25th, 2011, 06:58 PM
Overall leadership program?

uh....suuuuUUUuuure.....

Quick question, but lots of them:
Free-fed, meals, or earn-every bite?
Dishes left down when empty or picked up?
Who eats first, you or him?
Where does he eat?
Is he allowed in the dining/food prep/food storage areas?

Where does he sleep?
Is he allowed in the house/certain rooms/on furniture?

Who goes first through a doorway, gate, hall, stairs?
Which part of his body is beside you during a leash-walk?
Who decides when it's playtime/walktime?
Do you play tug? If yes, who wins? Are tug toys left out between games?
Does he fetch? How well?
Do you play rough games like wrestling?

Does he show any resistance to grooming/hugging/restraint?

Do you ever let him sit on your feet?
Sit directly in front of you?
Shove you physically or get you to sidle over to avoid tripping over him?
Demand affection?

akaJenT
March 25th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Quick question, but lots of them:
Free-fed, meals, or earn-every bite?
Dishes left down when empty or picked up?
Who eats first, you or him?
Where does he eat?
Is he allowed in the dining/food prep/food storage areas?

Where does he sleep?
Is he allowed in the house/certain rooms/on furniture?

Who goes first through a doorway, gate, hall, stairs?
Which part of his body is beside you during a leash-walk?
Who decides when it's playtime/walktime?
Do you play tug? If yes, who wins? Are tug toys left out between games?
Does he fetch? How well?
Do you play rough games like wrestling?

Does he show any resistance to grooming/hugging/restraint?

Do you ever let him sit on your feet?
Sit directly in front of you?
Shove you physically or get you to sidle over to avoid tripping over him?
Demand affection?

Uh oh....I'm in trouble, I bet I get a FAIL on every one of these...

Free-fed, meals, or earn-every bite? Free fed
Dishes left down when empty or picked up? uh...refilled
Who eats first, you or him? LOL you're kidding right? me
Where does he eat? in the front hallway away from the kitchen
Is he allowed in the dining/food prep/food storage areas? nope
Where does he sleep? He's a monster, wherever he wants! (but not on furniture or the bed)
Is he allowed in the house/certain rooms/on furniture? Whole house, not furniture, only when I'm home
Who goes first through a doorway, gate, hall, stairs? they do
Which part of his body is beside you during a leash-walk? I sled/bike them
Who decides when it's playtime/walktime? me
Do you play tug? If yes, who wins? Are tug toys left out between games? Nope, he and bell have pull toys between each other
Does he fetch? How well? Nope, and not bred for it
Do you play rough games like wrestling? Heck no, he's too big
Does he show any resistance to grooming/hugging/restraint? When I put his harness on to pull the sled/bike, he's so excited he can hardly hold still but it's not resistance.
Do you ever let him sit on your feet? nope, he's too big
Sit directly in front of you? sure
Shove you physically or get you to sidle over to avoid tripping over him? nope, he knows to not get in my way
Demand affection? Do you mean sit near me to get attention and petted? sure. I give him tons.Okay so...(grin) how'd I do?

SamIam
March 25th, 2011, 10:02 PM
:laughing: Actually? The only person who can give you a score is you! Just from reading the questions, you probably have a pretty good idea what the "right" answers are. What we are doing is showing your dog that you are the dominant/leader member of the family (and remember ALL humans including very small ones should outrank all dogs) and that you control the things he values.

The worst scenarios are when someone gives all the "right" answers but has a very badly behaved dog, or when they are unwilling to make any changes. Most people will give a combination of "right" and "wrong" answers, and are willing to change some, but not all of what they are doing. The worse your dog's behaviour is, the more of these you should do. Many dogs go through stages either due to maturity, or due to life changes like a new home or new family member, "act out" at those times, and need a reminder of who's in charge.

The answer to my question is yes, you are doing other leadership things with your dog!

If you have any behaviour problems now or in the future, do some or all these suggestions for a week or two, or even permanently:

Food doesn't fall out of heaven or grow out of empty bowls. It is earned, piece by piece, in exchange for work, or given, at human-decided mealtimes, to polite dogs. Yes, they know you eat first, and they care. Good neutral spot for them to eat. Good keeping them out of your food areas.
Keeping him out of the bedroom (and ideally out of respect for you, not just from a closed door) is a possibility. People whose dogs are outdoors only or only in the porch or one room tend to have fewer problems, for some dogs that's a possibility. Off the furniture is good. Dogs allowed on the furniture could be grounded (literally!) for a while and they do respond to that.
You should go first, when possible, through a doorway, gate, hall, stairs and there should be no pushing and shoving. Leash-training and leash-practice can help with respect. I would have the shoulder (small dogs), neck (medium dogs) or skull (large dogs) beside your leg. Behind that but not lagging to the end of the leash is fine too, unless you are in an obedience ring. You should be able to turn without pulling on the leash or tripping on your dog - this only happens if he's paying attention to you and respecting your choice of which direction to go. Exercise with a harness and sled/bike is fine, providing he is trained to turn/stop/slow when asked.
Games like tug, fetch, and wrestling are not necessary, but if you do play them, you need to win every time, and play/quit when you decide. This is often an issue with small kids, who tend to lose.
You should be able to touch and restrain your dog everywhere, such as feet, ears, nose, and in every position, such as him lying down, without a problem because (1) you are the leader and get to do whatever you want and (2) you are trustworthy and would never hurt him. (Not all dogs believe that of their owners, even if it is true.) Allowing him to dance around when you are putting on the harness is your choice. If you are getting frustrated with it, or if you want others to be able to put it on him, teach him to stand nicely for it.
Personal space is the most important aspect, but it is also the most difficult to assess without actually seeing you and him interact. Most people need a lot of improvement in this area. I think but can't promise you that you are already doing fairly well... so for now I'll leave you with the vague instruction, personal space is very important!

So my assessment? :thumbs up:thumbs up
(1) You are doing a lot of things that support your role as the leader, AND
(2) You have a lot of things that you could change if you want now, or want in the future to change his behaviour.

What is your assessment?

GalaxiesKuklos
March 25th, 2011, 10:02 PM
like I said, there are mountains of books by credentialed "professionals" claiming that spanking a child only breeds violence.
This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. When I read something like this, the credibility of the poster plummets to the bottom. What the research indicates is that physical punishment increases the likelihood of violence in the victim. And as we would expect - at least for those who understand evolution - the same is observed in dogs.



I lived 22 years in the mountains and had a dog that ran with a pack.Since dogs don't run in packs, I am not inclined to believe this claim.


After seeing what they teach kids in public school thanks to our academic elite Who needs all that ejumacation? :shrug:

Of course it comes down to credibility. You would be a lot more credible if you weren't using the internet. A tool invented by those academic elites and their twisted ideas.

GalaxiesKuklos
March 25th, 2011, 10:07 PM
(
With a rescue dog I did nothing but love on it, THAT was the dog that went for the throat of a child with no warning.

With a dog that I had since a pup, I growled in his throat and he got the message there was no negotiation about growling at my infant...and (gasp) he was smart enough to figure out that included actual attacks...

Even if that was the only variable for their entirely life, we could not conclude that it had anything to do with your growl. I can think of hundreds of environmental variables that could contribute to their behavior. As well as hundreds more biological variables.

Besides, this is an example of the post hoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc) fallacy.

mummummum
March 25th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Most people will give a combination of "right" and "wrong" answers,

I'm so glad you put those in "". There is no "right" answer ~ NONE.

There is what works for your dog/cat/hedgehog. And, as all good scientists know, there are actually very few empirical "knowns" ~ when it comes to behaviour, cognition and training of animals or people for that matter. We as a species barely understand how our own brains work physically, let alone how we can communicate with and understand how our companions think and feel.

There is nothing "magical" about training animals folks unless you are have something to gain by it. So lets stop putting this into the realm of Adler and Skinner. This is a pet forum for real people. All your chit-chat (yes I'z being sarcastic ~ surprize!) about P+ and P- is marvey-doo (more of that goll-dang sarcasm...) but not helpful unless I'm interested in becoming an animal behaviourist.

Though I have to admit I did enjoy thinking about the post hoc fallacy thingy. :D

BenMax
March 26th, 2011, 12:37 AM
Ok..you gals are just too damn intellectual for me..I'm out. :laughing:
P.S. - Please tell me I did not make any spelling mistakes God..please..:pray:

SamIam
March 26th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Ok..you gals are just too damn intellectual for me..I'm out. :laughing:
P.S. - Please tell me I did not make any spelling mistakes God..please..:pray:

You mean ever? Or just in this post specifically?:shrug:

exkalibur
March 26th, 2011, 12:45 AM
BM...don't worry, I will never tell....

BenMax
March 26th, 2011, 12:46 AM
BM...don't worry, I will never tell....

:offtopic: Can you at the very least tell me I spelt everything alright. I am flipping sleep deprived.:frustrated:

SamIam
March 26th, 2011, 12:47 AM
:offtopic:You were doing so well until spelt...

exkalibur
March 26th, 2011, 12:48 AM
No, no....it all looks good...:rolleyes:







:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing:

BenMax
March 26th, 2011, 12:50 AM
I am not going to even bother to edit my post. Look world...I can't spell, I butchered the Hinglish language...so how the heck can I punch through this thread.:laughing:. K - I bee'z quite and keep reading.:o

Love4himies
March 26th, 2011, 10:01 AM
I am not going to even bother to edit my post. Look world...I can't spell, I butchered the Hinglish language...so how the heck can I punch through this thread.:laughing:. K - I bee'z quite and keep reading.:o

:grouphug:

Don't worry about your spelling, it is just not important in life :shrug:. You will be remembered as the lady with a heart of gold, who gave up so much of her life for helping the homeless dogs and cats. :lovestruck:. IMO, anybody who thinks good spelling is so important is just shallow and has too much time on their hands. Carry on the way you are, you have made a huge mark in this world!

sugarcatmom
March 26th, 2011, 10:47 AM
Don't worry about your spelling, it is just not important in life :shrug:.

And you spell better than Jim Hall at least. :laughing:

Love4himies
March 26th, 2011, 10:54 AM
And you spell better than Jim Hall at least. :laughing:

:laughing::laughing:

akaJenT
March 29th, 2011, 03:29 PM
:grouphug:

Don't worry about your spelling, it is just not important in life :shrug:. You will be remembered as the lady with a heart of gold, who gave up so much of her life for helping the homeless dogs and cats. :lovestruck:. IMO, anybody who thinks good spelling is so important is just shallow and has too much time on their hands. Carry on the way you are, you have made a huge mark in this world!

Everyone including BenMax is a female? Who knew? Lol

Thanks for all the advice, but whoever said dogs don't run in packs...http://www.blessedcause.org/smilies/rofl.gif you're kidding, right?

BenMax
March 29th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Everyone including BenMax is a female? Who knew? Lol

Thanks for all the advice, but whoever said dogs don't run in packs...http://www.blessedcause.org/smilies/rofl.gif you're kidding, right?

Yep...surprise.:)
Why do people always assume I'm a dude?:shrug: