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What to say to rescue friend who won't spay preg dog?

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 02:48 PM
Hey guys.. I'm in a bit of a pickle here. My wonderful friend is running her own rescue group now and mostly works with pits. Well, she pulled a dog from death row that was going to be PTS and the dog may be preg.

I asked her if she wanted me to get her squeezed in with a vet that will spay her ASAP, and she said no she is going to be letting the dog have the puppies (if she is pregnant) because she doesn't agree with that.

I really don't know what to do. I told her some information and personal experiences about just letting a random dog have puppies, but she disagreed and said she has seen dogs 'become depressed from abortions' and the dogs are never the same.

I know most of you on here are very pro s/n so that's why I need your help. I don't know if I should just back down what. She's a great person and really helps dogs but I just don't understand how people who KNOW what happens to dogs, especially pits, in shelters could purposely allow a dog to have puppies?? :confused: Especially since they don't even know if the dog is even pregnant? I don't know if she is just planning to wait and see if the dog has puppies in the foster home or if she is going to waste a ton of money on tests or what?


Help!

14+kitties
February 19th, 2011, 02:55 PM
Could you send her some stats on PB's euth rates or even the numbers of dogs being put down because of no homes? If she is in rescue she should know those numbers anyway. :shrug:

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 02:59 PM
Could you send her some stats on PB's euth rates or even the numbers of dogs being put down because of no homes? If she is in rescue she should know those numbers anyway. :shrug:

Yeah, but she said that rescue should count for the unborn too... I really don't know what to do. She works at a county shelter too where loads of pits are put down each year. That's what I don't understand. And also the fact we have NO history on the mom dog let alone what the hell the dad could possibly be. I mean I see her point but I don't really.. get it...

And I feel like an ass because I'm the only one who said anything and all the other people are like YAY SAVE TEH BABBIEEZZ and I'm like.. really people? REALLY?

14+kitties
February 19th, 2011, 03:03 PM
Very strange. I hope if the girl is pregnant she manages to find responsible homes for all of the puppies. I guess that's all you can ask. :(

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 03:16 PM
Yeah I mean I'm sure she will, but that's sort of beside the point.. I mean that's an extra let's say, 4-8 pups she now has to spend the money on for shots, food, vet care etc.. instead of just spending the money to spay this poor dog... it's not exactly like her group is swimming in money. She's my age too btw. So I mean ethically I really don't even want to help her group now, because this is bothering me sooo much.. and she's a really good friend :( but this is really something that will bother me to no end. I was going to do a fundraiser for her, now that I'm out of work and have time to do it, but I really can't be associated with that kind of stuff.

I went BALLISTIC on some other group already over this kind of crap. The group was run by an EXTREMELY religious (Christian) leader who would not spay/neuter because she didn't believe in birth control and even admitted once that she kept some kitty littermates together for too long and they mated and she purposely let the female become pregnant and have the babies. I flipped :censored: on them and put out a DNA on them and practically put them out of business.

Love4himies
February 19th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Well, I guess she isn't into rescue for the good of dogs :(. Anybody who is knows there shouldn't be any more added in the world right now.

Good luck, Kathryn. I hope you can get her to come to her senses :pray:

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 03:22 PM
Would if be wrong to just send her a PM on facebook with some articles or something? If you guys know of any good ones let me know :( I mean I already somewhat debated with her but she's even posting on the rescues website about saving the pregnant dog and people are cheering it on.. which like I said makes no sense.... :shrug:

14+kitties
February 19th, 2011, 03:24 PM
I went BALLISTIC on some other group already over this kind of crap. The group was run by an EXTREMELY religious (Christian) leader who would not spay/neuter because she didn't believe in birth control and even admitted once that she kept some kitty littermates together for too long and they mated and she purposely let the female become pregnant and have the babies. I flipped :censored: on them and put out a DNA on them and practically put them out of business.

I don't get these groups that claim to be about rescue that will not s/n. :wall: IMO what's the point if you are just going to continue to be part of the overpopulation issue?

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Just throwing it out there, any of you want to take a whack at it? Her group has a public FB page with a ton of people on it :shrug: I can PM you the link if anyone wants to say something (nicely). Because I don't know what the hell to do.

14+kitties
February 19th, 2011, 03:36 PM
I'm heading to work now. :( Maybe someone else would be willing to. If not I'll see what I can find after I get home.

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Thanks. I'll probably be gone most of tonight as well and have work tomorrow, but I really do need to speak up about this. I mean I feel bad but at the same time I mean, it IS something to be upset about. It's not like she doesn't know how many dogs are already PTS, especially pits, and she's willing to waste all this time and energy to let this dog have random mutt puppies with no history on her... makes no sense to me :confused::confused: She said she feels people would be FURIOUS if they knew shelters spay preg animals all the time.

Frenchy
February 19th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I don't know of anyone in rescue who are against abortion. Unfortunately , your friend lacks of rescue experience :(

You can tell her how much it would cost , if anything bad happens. If the dog needs an emergency c-section , I can tell you that , this was about $1800.00 , 4 years ago. So now , it's probably in the $2000.00 and +. Then , let's say the mother dog isn't taking care of the pups , how is she going to find foster homes to take care of the pups 24/7 ? Then to get vet care for the pups , get them spayed & neutered before adoption etc ....

I'm sorry you have to deal with this , I sure hope this friend will listen to you. :fingerscr

Frenchy
February 19th, 2011, 03:51 PM
She said she feels people would be FURIOUS if they knew shelters spay preg animals all the time.

Then tell her : "are you in it to please people or to save dogs ?"

also , what if the male dog that got this dog preggo , is much larger , pups will die and , mom could too. :(

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 03:58 PM
This is her post on FB about the dog from about a week ago

Friend- I will pull her through my rescue! We have enough funds already to get everybody up to date on vaccines and possibly even spayed/neutered when they're ready. That aspect is covered! Just need a place for momma to be in rest while having her babies!
February 14 at 10:30am Like 1 person


Me- Are you pulling her -----? I can see about getting in for an emergency spay and if you need sponsorship for that I know a group that may help if she is coming up to this area if it's not already too late
February 14 at 12:16pm Like


Friend- No, I am not definitely pulling her. I need a foster home for her, first. Also, I don't agree with abortion if that's what you mean by the emergency spay (sorry).
February 14 at 2:53pm Like


Me- Just curious, why not? Obviously you of all people know how many puppies are already killed in shelters.. not to mention the high rate of complications with dog pregnancies. Can't even count how many dogs/cats I saw die or nearly die from pregnancies gone wrong, from puppies/kittens getting stuck, false pregnancies turning out to actually pyometras and I saw a dog that developed mastitis right after giving birth and had to get a full mastectomy and all 10 puppies had to be bottle fed. And another time we had a cat come in where all the kittens died in the uterus at full term and the cat was septic and practically dead when we had to do an emergency spay.

I guess I just see the lesser of the two evils as to spay now rather than deal with all the complications later, plus however many homes will be lost now for puppies already waiting for homes in foster homes or kill shelters because more puppies just came into the world *shrug*. Definitely was one of the harder things to have to talk to clients about when working at AWA..
February 14 at 2:59pm Like



Friend- First, it's a moral issue -- I am a person who values life very much. I am 100% for spaying/neutering, but don't agree that humans have the right to abort puppies from a perfectly healthy dog. I may be able to "accept" an abortion if the mom is sickly or say the vet detected a dead baby inside the mom... But, those are the only two reasons I can think of.

Second, I don't agree with it because I have seen so many dogs suffer traumatically from an abortion. They become depressed, they can become moody, aggressive... etc. It messes with their hormones very badly. I especially disagree with late term abortions because that affects the dogs tremendously worse... Most vets don't even give the dog any medication to control their hormones.

There are complications with everything... anesthesia can be risky. Dogs and cats have died from being spayed and neutered and that's a pretty basic procedure.

I respect your opinion and don't think you are wrong for your belief, so I hope you know that. You are a great friend!
February 14 at 3:12pm Like


Me- I guess that's true, which is why it bothered me at first, but then again when I'm seeing perfectly healthy and adoptable animals already being killed, it's just in good faith I can't feel responsible for allowing anymore animals to be brought into this already crappy world where cats and dogs are being killed left and right

I dunno, I've never seen any effects afterwards. I've been there for fair amount (unfortunately) and have even brought in pregnant animals for other people who couldn't even afford to care for one pet let alone a litter.. None of them have ever mentioned any long time psychological effects, but I suppose with the hormones it is possible to screw things up. I've never seen a pregnant animal die under anesthesia actually now that I think about it, but it deff. does increase some risks.

Just a fair warning though, ALOT of shelters and rescues around here would really disagree with you and get really pissed off if you make it noted through your group that you don't believe in pregnant spaying.. I myself had to flip out on a few people before because they had unaltered brother and sister animals together and wouldn't fix them because they thought the girl *might* already be pregnant >_< some people around here won't be quite so tolerant, especially kill shelters where their freezers are already packed with dead puppies and kittens.
See More
February 14 at 3:19pm Like


Friend- Hey people already don't support me because all I basically rescue is Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls are my main passion, but I love all dogs and will rescue any dog in need, so I want people to know that. Rescue is about saving dogs not killing them, and I hope that would include alive, but unborn pups, too. That's what rescue is about to me. The shelter where the pregnant dog is at, mustn't see a problem with her giving birth because they didn't abort her pups. A lot of people would be furious to hear of a shelter aborting pups. It's a very sensitive issue. I don't openly announce my personal believes or at least try not to necessarily make my believes the same for my rescue organization because it's not about me... it's about the animals. I do understand exactly what you're saying though, and agree, but disagree at the same time, if that makes sense.
February 14 at 3:32pm Like


Me- i guess ive just seen a ton of bad things from working in spay neuter so long. other people would prob agree if theyve seen some of the disgusting/horrifying things that have come from irresponsible breeding. suppose it just depends on your personal experiences.
February 14 at 3:44pm Like


Friend- Yeah, that is very true. I've seen a lot of bad from abortions -- you've seen a lot of good from abortions.

Etown_Chick
February 19th, 2011, 04:10 PM
Given the strength of her convictions, based on the FB post, I'd say it's unlikely that anything any of us says will change her opinion.

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 04:20 PM
True.. I mean.. she's a smart person. This isn't some stupid random chick, she's a good friend of mine.. works at a kill shelter and is fairly intelligent... I never knew she thought this way and it took me back ALOT. She sees dogs PTS at her work all the time. I guess her logic is since the dog will be in her rescue the puppies aren't going to be at risk for being PTS so why bother 'killing them' if they are all going to get good homes??

I see that with a fair amount of people but I tried to tell her okay, those ones will get god homes fine.. but then thats X amount of homes that won't be open now for pups who are already waiting in shelters, possibly on death row.

Tundra_Queen
February 19th, 2011, 04:39 PM
Can she take the dog to a vet and find out if she is pregnant first? if she's not then get her spayed right away?

BMDLuver
February 19th, 2011, 07:40 PM
I've seen this countless times with shelters and volunteers who get involved with dogs or cats that are discovered to be pregnant. Once the cat is out of the bag so to speak then they find it difficult to make the decision to spay. Generally, what is suggested is that an xray be done. If there are no visible vertebrae on xray then it is still safe to go ahead with a spay with no real risk to mom and the pups are not viable so the moral aspect is diminished. But emotions are a funny thing and sometimes folks can't see the forest for the trees. I would suggest that if you wish to remain friends with this person then you let it rest. I've seen folks end up hating each other over these type of things. Also, not every vet will agree to spay on pregnancy... some have an aversion to it due to necessities that may arise upon removing the uterus... Just some thoughts.....

kathryn
February 19th, 2011, 07:45 PM
I've seen this countless times with shelters and volunteers who get involved with dogs or cats that are discovered to be pregnant. Once the cat is out of the bag so to speak then they find it difficult to make the decision to spay. Generally, what is suggested is that an xray be done. If there are no visible vertebrae on xray then it is still safe to go ahead with a spay with no real risk to mom and the pups are not viable so the moral aspect is diminished. But emotions are a funny thing and sometimes folks can't see the forest for the trees. I would suggest that if you wish to remain friends with this person then you let it rest. I've seen folks end up hating each other over these type of things. Also, not every vet will agree to spay on pregnancy... some have an aversion to it due to necessities that may arise upon removing the uterus... Just some thoughts.....

Yeah, that's what I mean, but at the same time this pisses me off as much as a BYB would.

The second argument isn't totally valid around here though, because we have several dozen low cost spay/neuter clinics in the area that would absolutely do a spay. I used to be a tech at one and that's why I offered to get her squeezed in because I probably could have gotten it done for her for like $50. But instead of that she's going to spend thousands of dollars on more medical tests and 'saving' these puppies. And I told her that some symptoms of pregnancy in animals turn out to be bad bad things that the animals can die from but she didn't care :shrug:

BMDLuver
February 19th, 2011, 09:12 PM
Yeah, that's what I mean, but at the same time this pisses me off as much as a BYB would.

The second argument isn't totally valid around here though, because we have several dozen low cost spay/neuter clinics in the area that would absolutely do a spay. I used to be a tech at one and that's why I offered to get her squeezed in because I probably could have gotten it done for her for like $50. But instead of that she's going to spend thousands of dollars on more medical tests and 'saving' these puppies. And I told her that some symptoms of pregnancy in animals turn out to be bad bad things that the animals can die from but she didn't care :shrug:

well all you can do is council yourself and keep an eye really. Sounds like no matter what you say or anyone else does that this person is going to do as they please. Hopefully it is only a pregnancy and nothing more serious that will endanger this gal's life by waiting and seeing so to speak. Folks are strange in their thought processes when it comes to animals.

BenMax
February 20th, 2011, 08:45 AM
This is not someone who is putting a dog first, nor thinking realistically long term for the unborn. In my opinion, she is applying her own convictions of abortion of humans rather than sticking to the animal issue and the RESPONSIBLE decision to abort an already doomed 'type' of dog(s).
She is selfish and is not someone I would consider a 'rescuer'. She is damning the unborn to an uncertain life.

She needs to rethink her decision but I am afraid that you nor any of us may not have the power to sway her.

Love4himies
February 20th, 2011, 09:24 AM
This is not someone who is putting a dog first, nor thinking realistically long term for the unborn. In my opinion, she is applying her own convictions of abortion of humans rather than sticking to the animal issue and the RESPONSIBLE decision to abort an already doomed 'type' of dog(s).
She is selfish and is not someone I would consider a 'rescuer'. She is damning the unborn to an uncertain life.

She needs to rethink her decision but I am afraid that you nor any of us may not have the power to sway her.

very well said. She is being very, very selfish. Unlike human babies, unwanted pups are euthanized.

Choochi
February 20th, 2011, 11:02 AM
I hope she is prepared to house and raise these pups for life. To me this is borderline taking on the responsibilities of a breeder and I would hold her to the same high standards (no excuses because she didn't actually breed the dog, her choice to keep the pregnancy) as I would any breeder.

Poor choice to make imo but it's still her choice to make, and I simply hope she goes beyond and above to ensure good lives for these pups. I hope she doesn't just dump the mom and pups on a foster and be done with it. Every one of these pups that hasn't been born yet will take up the potential space and resource she could have had to save a dog that is already living and abandoned.

14+kitties
February 20th, 2011, 11:34 AM
All great words from the members here. Us going in and trying to change her mind is going to do diddlysquat. I did go to check out her page. Didn't see anything about a pregnant dog though. Did your conversation go on her rescue page or on her personal page?
All we can do at this point is to hope and pray the dog is not pregnant. If she doesn't produce puppies I would hope your friend would do the right thing and take her to be fixed. :(

ownedbycats
February 20th, 2011, 02:32 PM
If the dog is "chunky" enough that she is visibly pregnant, the puppies may be fairly developed. I was under the impression that the farther along the puppies/kittens are, the more dangerous a spay operation becomes. In that case, I could understand your friend not wanting to take the risk of losing the mother.

kathryn
February 20th, 2011, 03:32 PM
I think she may have removed the postings from the page :confused:

Well, thats the dog anyways.

I mean, I understand like you know, being wary to not want to spay a dog for medical reasons, but it's not the risk she is worried about she just doesn't want to "abort puppies for no reason".

And around here we have sooo many spay/neuter vets with so much experience that spay preggo animals all the time. Not that I'm proud of it but I've seen a fair few of practically term pregnant animals spayed, mainly because we didn't know they were term until we opened the animal up. I've never seen any major complications from it :shrug: Even the one time someone brought in a 150lb great dane mix that thought she *might* be pregnant and once we finally got her open the vet realized she was term pregnant and held it well so you couldn't even see.. I think for that we weighed her after the spay and she went down about 20 pounds.

It's not like I want to go around advertising that kind of crap though, because yes it is uncomfortable to talk about, but the same people that are being taboo about "abortion" in dogs and cats are the same ones that FREAAAKKK out on BYB's, shelters that PTS animals, etc.. sooo how FREAKING hypocritical is that to bitch at everyone else but now you have a breeding dog and are just going to let it drop a litter because the subject is too taboo.

BenMax
February 20th, 2011, 04:27 PM
If the dog is "chunky" enough that she is visibly pregnant, the puppies may be fairly developed. I was under the impression that the farther along the puppies/kittens are, the more dangerous a spay operation becomes. In that case, I could understand your friend not wanting to take the risk of losing the mother.

If the dog is chunky it could be worms. The only way to really find out if she is and how far along would be an x-ray.

If the dog is far along in pregnancy...the pups would have to be euthanized during the surgery. I have seen this and it is very very sad. Alot of vets do not like to do this.
It is a very upsetting topic on so many levels. Again - this is someone's fault that the dog is now in this circumstance. I have to wonder however that if this dog were a yorkie or a poodle - would we still want the pregnancy terminated? Being that she may be pitbull, (though not confirmed) it puts a different spin on this. 1 - a damned type of dog, 2 - puppies will also fall under a scrutinized breed type. So sad isn't it.

kathryn
February 20th, 2011, 07:10 PM
If the dog is chunky it could be worms. The only way to really find out if she is and how far along would be an x-ray.

If the dog is far along in pregnancy...the pups would have to be euthanized during the surgery. I have seen this and it is very very sad. Alot of vets do not like to do this.
It is a very upsetting topic on so many levels. Again - this is someone's fault that the dog is now in this circumstance. I have to wonder however that if this dog were a yorkie or a poodle - would we still want the pregnancy terminated? Being that she may be pitbull, (though not confirmed) it puts a different spin on this. 1 - a damned type of dog, 2 - puppies will also fall under a scrutinized breed type. So sad isn't it.

Yes, even if it was a poodle or some "cute" dog i would absolutely say the same thing. I LOVE pits, and that's why I find it sooo unethical to bring more into this world when they are being killed all over the place for various reasons.

I have personally been in the room on countless pregnant spays. You don't literally have to sit there and euthanize pups/kits, even full term. They are in the sac and are already receive the sedation the mom gets, and once the blood supply to the uterus is cut, that's that. Sometimes a bit extra meds are injected into the uterus once it's clamped off, but that's it.

I find it much more upsetting to witness a perfectly healthy and adoptable animals being held down on a table to have Fatal Plus injected into it's tiny arm as it screams for mercy, and to have to watch the life leave it's tiny face as you stuff it into a black trash bag and haul all the dead bodies to the freezer.

But maybe that's just me :shrug:

kathryn
February 20th, 2011, 07:11 PM
So what if you dont know what the dad is, how many people go into a shelter looking for a pure breed anyway?:confused: \
:

A significant majority. Probably 70%+ of average people.

I'm sensing that you really have no idea what really goes on in animal shelters :rolleyes:

BenMax
February 20th, 2011, 07:43 PM
Yes, even if it was a poodle or some "cute" dog i would absolutely say the same thing. I LOVE pits, and that's why I find it sooo unethical to bring more into this world when they are being killed all over the place for various reasons.

I have personally been in the room on countless pregnant spays. You don't literally have to sit there and euthanize pups/kits, even full term. They are in the sac and are already receive the sedation the mom gets, and once the blood supply to the uterus is cut, that's that. Sometimes a bit extra meds are injected into the uterus once it's clamped off, but that's it.

I find it much more upsetting to witness a perfectly healthy and adoptable animals being held down on a table to have Fatal Plus injected into it's tiny arm as it screams for mercy, and to have to watch the life leave it's tiny face as you stuff it into a black trash bag and haul all the dead bodies to the freezer.

But maybe that's just me :shrug:

It's not just you Kathryn - I am with you on this.

14+kitties
February 20th, 2011, 09:22 PM
People in rescue care about and think about the number of animals in the system all the time. Please don't ever doubt that. Thing is that sometimes they have to abort in order to save ones already here. Sure babies are cute, adorable, and it kills us to have to think of aborting. However older animals that are already here are also cute, adorable and should have a choice at life as well. For every puppy/kitten we allow to be born that we may have had a chance to abort before they became viable we are sentencing an animal that is already here to death. Personally I can not live with that on my conscience.
Some people have seen far more than the majority of us ever will. They have been in the trenches. They see the freezers full of dogs/cats/older kittens/older puppies that never got a chance to live because someone wanted to adopt the cute, cuddly new pup/kitten. Do they make the choices they make with a light heart? I hardly think so. I have had to abort kittens myself a few times. If that makes me a horrible person, so be it. I will join Kathryn then on your bad list. But I know in the long run it was the best decision I could make. Please don't put Kathryn down for looking at the big numbers. They exist even though some close their eyes to them.

kathryn
February 20th, 2011, 10:14 PM
Yea, I do actually I have volunteered at alot and have assisted in helping dogs get adopted. I dont know people who go into them thinking that there going to get a purebreed that no one else wanted and has been thrown out. Even if it was 70% dont you think the 30% might want one and its worth becuase more than likely your going to get atleast one adopted and if its just one thats one puppy that you didnt kill and got a new forever home. It sounds like to me your more worried about the money that helping the dogs. If its not your money its not your decision, and Im glad its not because I have a feeling you have ended alot of inoccent lives that didnt even get a chance based off of what you thought might happen. So what if its more upsetting for you to watch them die your watching them die either way I guess it just doesnt appeal to your emotions when you suffacate them and cut off there blood supply which Im sure makes it take longer for them to die. Since you dont have to see them it doesnt bother you either way there dieng one way you feel better about it. The truth is they have a chance if they live and if you abort they dont so why not give them a chance? Simply becasue its cheaper to kill them before and you dont feel as bad, sounds pretty selfish to me! Its people like you that make me sick!:yuck:Just go a head and kill an animal because, because I dont feel like dealing with it, it might make me sad to give it a chance and I dont want to have to go out of my way to get it adopted. NEWS FLASH thats what your there for, so if you cared you would be trying to help them not kill them. REAL animals lovers who actually wanted to care would give them a chance. What do you think we should start killing human babies before there born because people dont want to have to deal with them and there are too many in foster cares and orphan homes. NO because they still have a chance and so do these pups. So dont give me that I care crap because you dont, throw out statistics they still have a chance no matter what kind of dog they are get them fixed and they dont have pups and neither does the mother anymore. It looked like she was in a foster home and the pups will be too. She already has someone interested in helping them so you need to back off, and support her. Apparently you dont care though your willing to kill for your own satisfaction so why care about your friend. I cant believe you! :yell:


I'm all for killing human babies if they are going to turn into ignorant selfish people like you. :wall:


Anddd now I'm going to shut up before the mods smack me :mwaha:

I'm very sorry for caring so much about animals that I can't stand to see more die because people want to bring more unwanted pets in the world. I DEEPLY apologize and maybe I should just stop caring all together :rolleyes: And this isn't just about the issue of more puppies being born, this is also the issue of what if something goes wrong?

What if-
The mother dies?
A puppy gets stuck?
The puppies contract something contagious and cause and outbreak and die?
What if the mom gets mastitis and all the puppies have to be bottle fed 24/7? ( I've seen this happen!)
What if the puppies are born with such bad genetics from having an unknown history that their entire life consists of suffering from something like hip dysplasia? (have had this personally happen to my dog as a kid and she had to be PTS at 7 years old after a life of pain)
What if a person was going to be adopting a dog already in a shelter waiting for a home and after seeing the typical "cute widdle puppies" they decide to adopt a pup instead and cost the shelter animal it's life?

Let's factor in some costs since the economy is in the toilet. This will be worst case scenario-

Cost to have this dog spayed: $50. Problem solved. Dog can go on to be adopted.

Cost for dog to have puppies (for a litter of 8)
Cost of emergency care for dog when puppy gets stuck (happens ALL the time in situations like this)- $1200 on the low end
Dewormer and initial vaccines for puppies that survive- $200
Meds for mom when she gets mastitis- $75
Meds for puppies when they get sick (happens all the time with random stray animals)- $80
Cost to have all puppies fixed- $500
Food and other supplies for mom and pups- $300
Misc supplies, medical costs etc.. $100-$1,000+++ depending on problems that arise.


I'm so sorry that I'd rather put a few thousand dollars towards helping animals already in need instead of wasting it to bring more unwanted animals into this world.

BenMax
February 21st, 2011, 09:00 AM
Yea, I do actually I have volunteered at alot and have assisted in helping dogs get adopted. I dont know people who go into them thinking that there going to get a purebreed that no one else wanted and has been thrown out. Even if it was 70% dont you think the 30% might want one and its worth becuase more than likely your going to get atleast one adopted and if its just one thats one puppy that you didnt kill and got a new forever home. It sounds like to me your more worried about the money that helping the dogs. If its not your money its not your decision, and Im glad its not because I have a feeling you have ended alot of inoccent lives that didnt even get a chance based off of what you thought might happen. So what if its more upsetting for you to watch them die your watching them die either way I guess it just doesnt appeal to your emotions when you suffacate them and cut off there blood supply which Im sure makes it take longer for them to die. Since you dont have to see them it doesnt bother you either way there dieng one way you feel better about it. The truth is they have a chance if they live and if you abort they dont so why not give them a chance? Simply becasue its cheaper to kill them before and you dont feel as bad, sounds pretty selfish to me! Its people like you that make me sick!:yuck:Just go a head and kill an animal because, because I dont feel like dealing with it, it might make me sad to give it a chance and I dont want to have to go out of my way to get it adopted. NEWS FLASH thats what your there for, so if you cared you would be trying to help them not kill them. REAL animals lovers who actually wanted to care would give them a chance. What do you think we should start killing human babies before there born because people dont want to have to deal with them and there are too many in foster cares and orphan homes. NO because they still have a chance and so do these pups. So dont give me that I care crap because you dont, throw out statistics they still have a chance no matter what kind of dog they are get them fixed and they dont have pups and neither does the mother anymore. It looked like she was in a foster home and the pups will be too. She already has someone interested in helping them so you need to back off, and support her. Apparently you dont care though your willing to kill for your own satisfaction so why care about your friend. I cant believe you! :yell:

You are way off base (and I say this with all due respect). It is not a money nor numbers game. This is about doing the responsible thing. Keep in mind please as you are bringing a human rights issue into an animal issue. It is NOT the same topic at all.

Secondly, you are fostering a dog or two - correct? Fostering is not the same thing at all as working in a shelter or pound where animals are euthanized daily. You are not getting the picture it seems... until you WORK in the euthanasia room and see for yourself, first hand, what actually happens there.

Unfortunately..or fortunately I have seen this and probably HELD DOWN hundreds of dogs and cats that were being euth'd. Not pretty.

Until you walk in these shoes, will you understand the working mind of a shelter/pound or rescue worker. The job is dirty based on all the anguish that is seen and experienced. We look to the future based on statistics and EXPERIENCE.

You are definately entitled to your opinion however do not kill the messanger..who is trying desperately to get input on a very delicate subject.

Please add me to the insensitive and horrible list with Kathryn and others. I support their views 100%...and to add: I evaluate dogs and if they do not pass - I sign them off for the rescues I represent. I am your worst nightmare it would appear.

Love4himies
February 21st, 2011, 09:29 AM
Emie&Mila,

Kathyrn has seen the horrid things that are done to cats and dogs due to the overpopulation of pets and her priority is with the living ones, not the unborn ones. It is not an easy decision that shelters and rescues have to make when having puppies and kitties aborted, but it is for the overall good.

She has also given up so much in her life to care for unwanted cats, the decisions to abort are not about money, but about love. I know it is hard to understand this as I had a hard time, until I started volunteering at my local shelter, then I understood.

14+kitties
February 21st, 2011, 12:51 PM
One simple question EM. What about the hundreds of thousands of puppies that are already here that do not have homes? Please don't say they can be adopted. So could the ones that area already alive and breathing, running around, living. What about them? Think beyond the whole abortion thing and look at the big picture please. :pray:

BenMax
February 21st, 2011, 12:59 PM
:wall:The thing is there still alive, .

I guess it all depends on how one defines the word 'alive'. Also - there is no mention as of yet, on how far along she is ..or isn't.

Fact remains there are currently puppies of various breeds that are in danger of euthanasia. Their definition of 'alive' is current as they are in this physical universe..not a womb. Infact, one rescue just picked up 3 8 week old puppies in danger and our rescue picked up 2 pups...all in a pound that kills with gas. So this is only TODAYS evidence that there are puppies in the system that are currently looking for homes and that were in danger of death - puppies that are ALIVE.

If you have all this experience that you write about, then you should realize the dilemmas, the heartache, the anguish that these people go through. The comments that you made to Kathryn was absolutely uncalled for, very judgemental and border-line ignorant.

BenMax
February 21st, 2011, 01:13 PM
Sorry but I cant support abortion.

No one is asking you to. What I am personally saying is chill out with how you convey your feelings on the subject matter. I do not see anyone here telling you that you should change your views. Infact keep them..just respect others with a different take on how 'life' is defined.

Obviously my position is very clear and it is to support the OP on this subject.

14+kitties
February 21st, 2011, 01:17 PM
Sorry but I cant support abortion.

But you are being anthropomorphic. You can not place the same instincts on a dog that you would on a human. Dogs can't control when/if they get pregnant. Humans can. Dogs can't decide if they want to carry a litter or not. Humans can. :shrug:
BenMax gave you some good examples just from today. Just from one shelter. These are tiny pups she is trying to save. Tiny. They will probably be the lucky ones. What about all the countless shelters, pounds, etc around the country? Think about those 8 or 10 BM might be lucky enough to pull. Then think about that number times what? 200,000 pounds, HS? It's astounding. Add to it the fact that these are dogs that have a high probability of not being adopted just because they are unfortunate enough to carry a "bully" breed attachment. Where do they go then? Does the person currently fostering the mom take on the responsibility of the mom AND the pups she has for life? :confused:
I'm not trying to "bully" you into seeing this point of view. I'm just trying to point out the other side of a very unfortunate coin. :(

Frenchy
February 21st, 2011, 01:57 PM
I have rescued dogs that have been dropped off and beaten and fostered dogs that no one else wanted but I still disagree with the abortion.

Oh please , you opened up a thread on Feb 8 of this year , asking about fostering. And seeing all your other threads , asking for advices ... now you have experience ? Please !

I have fostered (for real !) pets that had abortions , all of them were healthier because of it. Please do your research.

kathryn
February 21st, 2011, 02:08 PM
Oh please , you opened up a thread on Feb 8 of this year , asking about fostering. And seeing all your other threads , asking for advices ... now you have experience ? Please !

I have fostered (for real !) pets that had abortions , all of them were healthier because of it. Please do your research.

Exactly. Apparently even though I have worked with over a dozen different vets for years, have been in on over 15,000 spay/neuter surgeries, fostered over 100 animals, rescued countless more, and have monitored hundreds of animals after I took them in to be fixed, CLEARLY I know nothing.

I wasn't posting this as a "who is right and who is wrong" thing, I was posting this for advice on how to talk to a friend. This is the same reason when I posted asking for advice on my FB page, I wouldn't actually say what the subject was.. I just posted asking what you would do if you really disagreed with a friend and weren't sure how to confront them... I explained the whole situation here because I THOUGHT people would be more open minded and would offer advice even if they disagreed with my point of view, but it seems ignorant people exist everywhere.


I emailed my friend who lives in NY and started a online network rescue to save animals in Georgia because she saw the horrors that went on down there and needed to do something.. and she 100% agreed with me and told me how she has people who do the same thing to her group, and often to mock her they will send pictures of the kittens/puppies after they are born and send horrible comments like "you wanted to kill me!!!" and so she started sending back pictures of puppies/kittens that died (usually in gas chambers) during the time people were fostering the animals they allowed to be born into this world. I wanted to throw up when she told me some of the cruel things people did to her, even though she has saved THOUSANDS of animals and got many of the new animal control laws in GA passed to end gas chambers and get spay/neuter going...

some people just don't get it. :frustrated:

BenMax
February 21st, 2011, 02:14 PM
Oh please , you opened up a thread on Feb 8 of this year , asking about fostering. And seeing all your other threads , asking for advices ... now you have experience ? Please !

I have fostered (for real !) pets that had abortions , all of them were healthier because of it. Please do your research.

Finally someone calling a spade a spade. Thank you for the honesty.

Love4himies
February 21st, 2011, 03:15 PM
:wall:The thing is there still alive, so either way your killing something living wether old or not. The puppies have already been developed its not like she bred her to have the puppies.

No disputing, they are alive, but not as alive as adult pets. Their brain and organs are not fully developed. I don't think they suffer as they are being euthanized while momma is getting spayed.

Momma will not suffer due to the lose of her pups, she won't even notice they weren't born, and IMHO will be happier. I have yet to have a foster momma kitty that was happier nursing and caring for her kittens, than being spayed enjoying the carefree life that is offered to those animals that no longer have to deal with their hormones. The shelter I volunteer for will do emergency spays on females that come in pregnant unless they are almost at full term.

As for your comment on those who abort pups, it is those who DO care about all dogs that make the decision to abort. REAL animal lovers want to give those dogs and cats without a home a CHANCE to get adopted and live the remainder of the lives.

Love4himies
February 21st, 2011, 03:20 PM
I asked for advice on fostering through an organization, I have fostered on my own and adopted out dogs for a while now. I knew there would be a difference. I classify the puppy as alive in or out of the mother. So putting down one to save another doesnt make sense to me, actually I think that its just because as you all say a "bully" breed that is the only reason your for it. No they cant make there own decision so its the person that tries to make the best decision for them if she is not in danger because of the pregnancy then I think that the best thing for the mother would be to help her pups not kill them. But obviously Im talking to a bunch of bull headed inconsiderate people. And the only ingnorant thing I have done is try to argue with you people, and try to make you see your taking a life by trying to persuade her. I have actually already contacted her on facebook and let her know that I support her decision and her stand against this. So straight answere leave her alone about this, its her decision her money and if you do continue to try to persuade her and she feels strongly about it your just going to upset her and ultimatly end your friendship. Support her because thats what a real friend does. I hope the dog isnt pregnant because we dont need more puppies but she does need to have them if she is. That is all.

I am sorry you feel this way. You are certainly entitled to your opinions.

Just one question: If this momma has 10 pups, these 10 pups get adopted, would you be willing to hold the 10 adult dogs down that will get euthanized because the 10 pups took their potential homes, put them in a plastic bag, and throw them in the freezer?

breeze
February 21st, 2011, 03:27 PM
obviously Im talking to a bunch of bull headed inconsiderate people. .

I have to disagree with you here Emie&Mila.
The people on this board is actually thinking with their heads and not with their hearts doing whats best for the breed and dogs and cats in general and trying to save a breed that is already in danger.
it is not easy, when making a dission like this. your heart always wants to take over.. but they know it's in the best interest for the dog.

BenMax
February 21st, 2011, 03:31 PM
But obviously Im talking to a bunch of bull headed inconsiderate people. And the only ingnorant thing I have done is try to argue with you people, and try to make you see your taking a life by trying to persuade herreal friend does. I hope the dog isnt pregnant because we dont need more puppies but she does need to have them if she is. That is all.

Well so be it then. We are bull headed inconsiderate people and yet so many of these people have tried very hard to help you in your questions within other threads. Personally, I would think that based on all your 'experience' you would not have to have asked all of your questions in the first place.

And again as you stated..you have tried to argue...but it's a one way arguement as I don't think anyone has the energy nor the time to 'agrue' with someone who does not hear nor listen.

That's my :2cents: worth.

14+kitties
February 21st, 2011, 03:43 PM
actually I think that its just because as you all say a "bully" breed that is the only reason your for it.

Actually, the "bully" breed has nothing to do with it. I would abort any breed or mix of dog unless she is within a very close time of having her pups. The only reason I would not then is because of the danger to mom. All breeds of dogs are close to my heart. And cats.

But obviously Im talking to a bunch of bull headed inconsiderate people.

Maybe we are bull headed. :shrug: Come back in talk to us in another year or so after you have tried to save all you can through your fostering. Then tell us we are inconsiderate. It all comes down to responsibility.
BTW - I've been called much worse - and quite recently. :rolleyes:

Now - seems the decision has been made, right or wrong. I see no sense in beating a dead horse. :shrug: Now my question would be if she is so concerned about the dog and being pregnant has she sought medical advise yet? That would be the telling factor.

Love4himies
February 21st, 2011, 04:31 PM
O My goodness I am so sorry! I did not write any of this! My relative go into here, I must have left it up! I just saew were I had posted on something that I did not recognize and saw this! I am so sorry I will change my password and delete the post! Again so sorry especailly to Kathryn!

Although I am not totally convinced this is true as it started at 5 PM yesterday, I do think you have a huge heart and truly love animals. I think you are still quite young and naive and I hope you can learn something from this forum.

BMDLuver
February 22nd, 2011, 09:37 AM
Well I guess you can believe what you want know changing your mind. I DO love animals so much and want to make my life about helping them as much as possible. I am young but not young enough to be naive. Im sure I will learn something from this forum, everyone can learn from somebody elses experiences. I know I dont know it all and am willing to learn!

I would suggest you do as you said and delete all the posts that "you" did not post and leave this thread to it's original intentions.That would be a good start?

Luvmypitgirls
February 28th, 2011, 04:34 AM
As someone that works in "bully" rescue, I just have to say I'm sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.
First off Kathryn, I agree with you 110%, and I hope your friend realizes the reality of the situation.
Secondly, I can say with 100% certainty that nobody here is suggesting aborting the pups strictly cuz they are of "bully" breed. The people here don't discriminate against "bully breeds" and to even suggest they do is ridiculous.

The previous ownership of the rescue I volunteer for, brought in a preg Pit, she was allowed to carry to term and had a huge litter of 10! One died shortly after birth, the other 9 eventually found their way to my house, where I put a lot of "blood, sweat and tears" into them..literally.
By the time they left me, they were house trained and had basic obiedience.
They were Pit, GSD, Akita and god knows what else in those dogs. It almost killed the mama dog when she had them, and the rescue paid to have them all spayed and neutered when they were just weeks old, a huge expense and somewhat risky venture. Those funds could've went to saving other Pits, like those dumped or on death row for committing no crime.
Some of these pups went quickly and others I had for months, the last one, Eddy-bear whom I loved and adored took 9 months to find a forever home.
While I would've rathered the rescue done an abortion, once the pups came to me I loved and trained them and did the best I could.
But I still maintain it wasn't the right choice to let the litter come to term.

kathryn
March 1st, 2011, 07:39 PM
As someone that works in "bully" rescue, I just have to say I'm sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.
First off Kathryn, I agree with you 110%, and I hope your friend realizes the reality of the situation.
Secondly, I can say with 100% certainty that nobody here is suggesting aborting the pups strictly cuz they are of "bully" breed. The people here don't discriminate against "bully breeds" and to even suggest they do is ridiculous.

The previous ownership of the rescue I volunteer for, brought in a preg Pit, she was allowed to carry to term and had a huge litter of 10! One died shortly after birth, the other 9 eventually found their way to my house, where I put a lot of "blood, sweat and tears" into them..literally.
By the time they left me, they were house trained and had basic obiedience.
They were Pit, GSD, Akita and god knows what else in those dogs. It almost killed the mama dog when she had them, and the rescue paid to have them all spayed and neutered when they were just weeks old, a huge expense and somewhat risky venture. Those funds could've went to saving other Pits, like those dumped or on death row for committing no crime.
Some of these pups went quickly and others I had for months, the last one, Eddy-bear whom I loved and adored took 9 months to find a forever home.
While I would've rathered the rescue done an abortion, once the pups came to me I loved and trained them and did the best I could.
But I still maintain it wasn't the right choice to let the litter come to term.

Thank you!! :thumbs up Still no word from her about the dog at all, she is listed as up for adoption. Maybe I should let the situation go and let the dog just have the pups, and maybe once it turns into a bad situation like what happened to you, she will understand what I am talking about. I know that's a sad thing to have to hope for, but don't know what else to do :shrug: I really don't want to ruin a good friendship.

Luvmypitgirls
March 2nd, 2011, 10:01 PM
Thank you!! :thumbs up Still no word from her about the dog at all, she is listed as up for adoption. Maybe I should let the situation go and let the dog just have the pups, and maybe once it turns into a bad situation like what happened to you, she will understand what I am talking about. I know that's a sad thing to have to hope for, but don't know what else to do :shrug: I really don't want to ruin a good friendship.

kathryn, it's unfortunate but sometimes we just have to bow out and whatever happens happens. Your friend is responsible for whatever situation she gets herself into with this dog and the pups when they are born.
No point in :wall: because that is energy better spent educating others that will listen.
Be a friend, be there when she needs to voice her frustration with the situation but don't say "I told you so" cuz sometimes ppl need to learn their lesson via experience.
But I do understand your frustration with the situation and I know you will always do what you feel is right for the animals. Don't let it drag you down gf.
Hugs

Emie&Mila
March 3rd, 2011, 02:00 PM
I would just like to say that I have spoken with her and the dog isnt pregnant. I thought it was great news! I would also like to say that she wasnt going to abort, even if she was. :D

BenMax
March 3rd, 2011, 02:18 PM
I would just like to say that I have spoken with her and the dog isnt pregnant. I thought it was great news! I would also like to say that she wasnt going to abort, even if she was. :D

Great news. Glad you found a place to relate.:thumbs up