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For those it interests, minimum breeding ages.

Goldfields
January 30th, 2011, 09:20 PM
In our latest monthly gazette down here in Victoria, Australia,(received today) they have published a list of all the breeds and the minimum age we are now allowed to mate them. I won't say it's a guide line to go by, a lot of you would say it's not strict enough, but if you would like to see what they say for 'your' breed, just let me know what it is. I think there will be some unhappy sheltie breeders. They believe that for the female's sake, the earlier the better, but now they can't mate them till they are 16 months. ACD's can be mated after 12 months, they are a fast maturing breed, but most people wait till their 2nd or 3rd heat anyway.

AnneCS
January 30th, 2011, 10:28 PM
Interesting... I found the list here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=214180&mode=linearplus

I still believe that ~2 years is generally best, even for the little breed I love that's in the 12 month list... for health clearances, maturity, etc.

erykah1310
January 30th, 2011, 11:02 PM
What forms of health testing do you have there? Here you can not get things like hips and elbows done until 18 months (if you go OVC) and 24 months for OFA, you can run prelims at 18 months.
After having bred a 2 year old, I think I would rather wait until 3 for my breed.
What are your guidelines for Tibetan Mastiffs?

Choochi
January 31st, 2011, 07:20 PM
Here you can not get things like hips and elbows done until 18 months (if you go OVC) and 24 months for OFA, you can run prelims at 18 months.

That's what I'm thinking too. Health tests that I would like to see done on the breeding pair can't be done at 12 months so how can they justify saying that's an ok age to start breeding? And that doesn't apply just to large breeds that suffer from hip displasia etc, small dogs are just as prone, I'm thinking luxating patellas in particular.

To me it's not just about the dog being physically mature enough to breed, they have to have their health testing done. Also, what sort of credible titles can you have on a 1yr old dog? I know that's not the norm in all breeds, but I like to see some sort of obedience or working title on a dog that is being bred to justify the breeding. That may include show titles for the dog's conformation for some one else not into the working aspect of dogs.

Even if tests are done and titles obtained, I would be questionable of a breeder that is breeding a 2yr old female. What's the rush? I MUCH rather buy from an older dog that is proven.

erykah1310
January 31st, 2011, 08:31 PM
Some breeds though have a pretty small window to safely carry and whelp a litter at older ages, but 3 isnt old.

Goldfields
February 1st, 2011, 03:50 AM
Choochi, curiosity makes me ask, how many dual titled breeding dogs do you own? I don't even know what breed you have so can't even ponder whether the perfect parents you are after would be common in your breed.
Erykah1310, I'd like to answer you in depth but am very busy, sort of a late Spring cleaning going on. If you follow that thread AnneCS put on here you'll no doubt read a bit about testing people do here. I agree with what you've said in that last post by the way.

Love4himies
February 1st, 2011, 07:37 AM
How about not breeding at all :lightbulb: and allow those dogs who don't have a home find one instead of finding themselves in gas chambers :thumbs up.

erykah1310
February 1st, 2011, 09:24 AM
L4H, i understand your take on breeding and your opinions on the matter, as do I understand and know of the hundred of thousands of cats and dogs in shelters.
Every inquiry I have had this years on future litters and before even discussing placement on a waiting list I have pointed prospective puppy homes to petfinder, once the interview process has started for some and the realization that a TM may not be the right fit for them arrives, we have had lenghty discussions about other breeds that may be more suitable and again I recommend shelters first, then breed clubs.
Now, I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to purchase a pup or dog with the odds stacked in their favor of good health and temperament. Some people would rather spend more upfront for guarantees. Having had several rescues ( however most of mine were older and not likely to find their forever homes and were riddled with various health problems either genetic or environmental) I will not stop purchasing from reputable breeders and knowing the chances are higher that this is exactly what I am looking for, along side of taking in dogs in need when able to.
I hope this thread does not take the ugly turn that the previous thread did in regards to breeding. Just because this is a pro spay/neuter board where the majority of members are firm on only rescueing, as the title of the board states it is pets.ca, not rescue.ca or breeders.ca, I do believe that we are able to discuss what ever topic comes up with out turning it into a battle between animal lovers who truely do want what is best even if it is on the other side of the spectrum. We do not label all rescues and shelters the same, there are good bad and ugly, when it comes to rescues as well as there is breeders.
I do not paint all rescues with the same brush as the bad ones and honestly would never dream of doing so. However it is so acceptable for all breeders to be painted as such.
The condescending tone on this forum towards any breeder is rediculous, and while I am sure many members around here would much rather me not be here stating my opinions regardless if it goes against the grain of the clique or not

erykah1310
February 1st, 2011, 09:40 AM
I'm just going to quote the list from that link above, saves people bouncing back and forth
12 Months
Affenpinscher
Airedale Terrier
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
Australian Silky Terrier
Bichon Frise
Border Terrier
Boston Terrier
British Bulldog
Bull Terrier
Bull Terrier [Miniature]
Chihuahua [all varieties]
Chinese Crested Dog
Cocker Spaniel
Collie [Rough and Smooth]
Dachshund [all varieties]
English Springer Spaniel
English Toy Terrier
French Bulldog
German Hunting Terrier
German Spitz [Klein]
German Spitz [Mittel]
Griffon Bruxellois
Havanese
Italian Greyhound
Jack Russell Terrier
Japanese Chin
Japanese Spitz
Labrador Retriever
Lhasa Apso
Lowchen
Maltese
Miniature Pinscher
Papillon
Pekingese
Pomeranian
Portugese Podengo
Pug
Schnauzer [all varieties]
Schipperke
Shih Tzu
Tenterfield Terrier
Tibetan Spaniel
Welsh Corgi [Cardigan and Pembroke]
West Highland White Terrier
Yorkshire Terrier

16 Months
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Finnish Lapphund
Golden Retriever
Shetland Sheepdog

18 Months
Afghan Hound
Akita Inu
Alaskan Malamute
American Staffordshire Terrier
Australian Kelpie
Australian Terrier
Basenji
Basset
Basset Fauve de Bretagne
Beagle
Bearded Collie
Bedlington Terrier
Belgian Shepherd Dog [all varieties]
Bergamasco Shepherd Dog
Bloodhound
Bluetick Coonhound
Border Collie
Borzoi
Bouvier des Flandres
Boxer
Bracco Italiano
Briard
Brittany
Bullmastiff
Cairn Terrier
Canaan Dog
Cesky Terrier
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
Chow Chow
Curly Coated Retriever
Dalmatian
Dandie Dinmont Terrier
Deerhound
Dobermann
Dogue De Bordeaux
Dutch Shepherd
Eurasier
Field Spaniel
Finnish Spitz
Flat Coated Retriever
Fox Terrier [Smooth and Wire]
German Pinscher
German Shepherd Dog
German Shorthaired and Wirehaired
Pointer
Glen of Imaal
Gordon Setter
Grand Basset Griffon Vendeen
Greyhound
Hamiltonstovare
Harrier
Ibizan Hound
Irish Red & White Setter
Irish Setter
Irish Terrier
Irish Water Spaniel
Italian Corso
Italian Spinone
Keeshond
Kerry Blue Terrier
King Charles Spaniel
Lakeland Terrier
Lagotto Romagnolo
Large Munsterlander
Manchester Terrier
Neapolitan Mastiff
Norfolk Terrier
Norwegian Elkhound
Norwick Terrier
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
Old English Sheepdog Club
Otterhound
Parson Russell Terrier
Peruvian Hairless Dog
Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen
Pharaoh Hound
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Pointer
Poodle [Miniatures and Toys]
Portuguese Water Dog
Puli
Pumi
Pyrenean Mastiff
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Saluki
Samoyed
Scottish Terrier
Sealyham Terrier
Shar Pei
Shiba Inu
Siberian Husky
Skye Terrier
Sloughi
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
St Bernard
Sussex Spaniel
Swedish Lapphund
Swedish Vallhund
White Swiss Shepherd Dog
Tibetan Terrier
Weimaraner
Weimaraner [Longhair]
Welsh Springer Spaniel
Welsh Terrier
Whippet
Xoloitzcuintle [Miniature]

20 Months
Australian Shepherd
Bernese Mountain Dog
Mastiff

22 Months
Rottweiler
Tibetan Mastiff

24 Months
Anatolian Shepherd Dog
Black Russian Terrier
Canadian Eskimo Dog
Central Asian Shepherd Dog
Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel [American]
English Setter
Foxhound
Great Dane
Hungarian Vizsla
Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla
Irish Wolfhound
Kangal
Komondor
Kuvasz
Leonberger
Maremma Sheepdog
Newfoundland
Norwegian Buhund
Poodle [Standard]
Pyrenean Mountain Dog
Spanish Mastiff
Xoloitzcuintle [Intermediate and Standard]

I really dont understand how these lists were put together, one would think by size however, Labrador is in the 12 month column, where as "miniature" and toy poodles are in the 18month, then American Cocker Spaniels in the 24 month?

This list is quite bizarre to me, I cant quite wrap my head around it.

BenMax
February 1st, 2011, 10:23 AM
In most cases as per the list...it looks to me like babies haveing babies. Sorry but I cannot get passed the thought that my own min pin could have been breed as early as 1 year old. How very very sad.

Choochi
February 1st, 2011, 11:13 AM
Choochi, curiosity makes me ask, how many dual titled breeding dogs do you own? I don't even know what breed you have so can't even ponder whether the perfect parents you are after would be common in your breed.


I'm not a breeder so I don't own any breeding dogs. My new pup's parents are both titled, dad is a PH1 police dog, mom had completed one leg of her MR2, both were also fully health tested. Prior to picking this pair, I looked at a few other possible breedings, all other matings I looked at both dogs were highly titled adults, one pair in particular both parents had their SchH3, dad also had a FRB, mom had a number of other obedience and show titles. I don't think any of the dogs was younger then 3yrs old.

Depending on what breed of dog I was looking for and for what purpose, my requirements for the parents would be different. However even if I was looking for a simple pet quality dog (first of all for that purpose I would have just adopted a rescue, but that's beside the point), I would expect to see at the very bare minimum health testing, and one title of any sort be it work, obedience, or show, even something fun like agility, flyball, or dock diving. I wouldn't want to support a breeder who breeds for the sake of breeding and does nothing with her dogs to test their abilities and keep them busy.

Choochi
February 1st, 2011, 11:15 AM
I'm just going to quote the list from that link above, saves people bouncing back and forth


I really dont understand how these lists were put together, one would think by size however, Labrador is in the 12 month column, where as "miniature" and toy poodles are in the 18month, then American Cocker Spaniels in the 24 month?

This list is quite bizarre to me, I cant quite wrap my head around it.


Wow thanks for posting that. That list makes absolutely no sense at all. Labradors ok to breed at 12months? Bullmastiff at 18 moths?? These dogs are not even done growing at these ages! Never mind all the health testing that can't be done.

Babies having babies indeed. Which organization has issued this sorry excuse of ethical guidelines? It would have been better if this wasn't even issued. This may actually encourage people to breed earlier then they would have. People who were already breeding earlier then these recommended ages wouldn't be reputable breeders who have the best interest of their dogs in mind to begin with.

erykah1310
February 1st, 2011, 02:10 PM
It absolutely is babies having babies... very sad and will be used as a loop hole unfortunately.
I think it should be minimum 24 months regardless of breed. By bumping back the recommended breeding age wouldnt that open the door for a female being "able" to have that extra litter as well? Most breeds recommend no more than 3 breedings some even 2. Starting them younger will boost that number I'm sure.
I agree this would be better off not published. I can not think of one reason that a lab (or any of the others on that list) should be able to breed at a year old.

BenMax
February 1st, 2011, 05:59 PM
Wow thanks for posting that. That list makes absolutely no sense at all. Labradors ok to breed at 12months? Bullmastiff at 18 moths?? These dogs are not even done growing at these ages! Never mind all the health testing that can't be done.

Babies having babies indeed. Which organization has issued this sorry excuse of ethical guidelines? It would have been better if this wasn't even issued. This may actually encourage people to breed earlier then they would have. People who were already breeding earlier then these recommended ages wouldn't be reputable breeders who have the best interest of their dogs in mind to begin with.

OMG well thank you for posting this. I thought I was one of the dying old fossils on this forum (outside those who are not shy to make a stand).

Thank you Choochi for your courageous post.:thumbs up

Goldfields
February 1st, 2011, 07:52 PM
OMG well thank you for posting this. I thought I was one of the dying old fossils on this forum (outside those who are not shy to make a stand).

Thank you Choochi for your courageous post.:thumbs up

BenMax, I did put this post up to see what people thought. :D I don't find it that alarming because it ties in with us nowadays having to do any health tests listed for our breed too, and if that happened to be hip scoring then unless they use PennHip they can't do it prior to 12 months. You health test or risk getting sued by an irate puppy buyer. Maybe they don't consider ACD's in general for instance to have a hip problem? :shrug:
erykah1310, they are far more (what's the word) generous in how many litters females can have here, I think it might be 6. :eek: Just shows that, no matter how many times someone here tells me that dog over population is not just a Canadian problem, I don't think it's anywhere near that sort of problem here. The 1980's was the boom time for show dogs I'd say, with huge entries, but then the memberships started dropping alarmingly. I don't know what it stands at, at the moment. And before you start saying poor girls, that isn't set in stone, not everyone would want 6 litters. Only one of mine had 2 litters, the rest only a solitary litter when I was after a show pup, and not every female was bred with anyway.
Snoopy(foundation ACD female, born in `1976) had just one litter at 4 years of age, with every whelping problem imagineable, I would never mate a maiden bitch that late again. I didn't mate her daughter ever, I got a pup from another daughter I'd given to a friend on breeder's terms, and she was 4 years old too(though with earlier litters) when I got that pup. From then on those I kept were whelping as 2 year olds, except for my last 3, which I didn't breed from at all. So, while we have loads of freedom here, people don't often take advantage of it.
I thought they were game compiling that list of minimum breeding ages, it's bound to cause a lot of argument, and a lot will be agreeing with people here.

Choochi, no offence but I see wanting titled parents as a form of snobbery. The rescue/foster/adopted dogs don't have them. I can say my Ch's were great show dogs but some of you might have better rescues, meaning where conformation is concerned, and an obedience dog is only as good as the owner wants it to be. Some breeds are excellent, but they aren't stupid just because the owner couldn't be bothered taking up that hobby. I chose my foundation ACD from a top obedience line, her mum was the first Aust. Obedience CH for the breed, and yes, I got a ripper dog, worth her weight in gold as a worker and guard dog, BUT just because she lacked titles herself didn't mean she was of a lesser value as a breeder, just means I didn't have time or the inclination to show or trial her. I then got a dog that had both parents obedience titled and it was the most disobedient dog I've ever owned. Go figure. :D My current old red dog lived up to his breeding, but just because his pedigree only contains heaps of conformation Ch titles, would you ignore him because there are no obedience titles? He's proved a joy to live with, always wanting to please us, so I say forget the titles, find out what parents and grandparents are like to live with and handle. I'd seen his around the show scene for years.

cassiek
February 1st, 2011, 10:59 PM
How about not breeding at all :lightbulb: and allow those dogs who don't have a home find one instead of finding themselves in gas chambers :thumbs up.

:thumbs up Could not agree more!

In most cases as per the list...it looks to me like babies haveing babies. Sorry but I cannot get passed the thought that my own min pin could have been breed as early as 1 year old. How very very sad.

Well put, BenMax. I know very limited information about breeding dogs, but this just seems far too young for some of these dogs to be having pups. :shrug: It'd be like a 12 year old having a baby... :(

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 06:48 AM
BenMax, I did put this post up to see what people thought. :D

The same people that already stated their opinion probably have the exact same thoughts that they did yesterday. I don't think anyone was influenced or swayed based on other discussions in other threads.

Very informative though. I did not think things were actually worse then they are. Wrong again it appears.

And just to add: I think that you are taking Choochi's comments completely out of context.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 07:55 AM
BenMax, I did put this post up to see what people thought. :D

I think you have been on this forum long enough to know there is only one person who actively makes it know she plans on (or has already) bred, so I am not sure what audience you were targeting?


Also, since I don't think opinions have changed since the last closed thread about breeding, I am wondering what you were expecting from starting this thread?

Loki Love
February 2nd, 2011, 08:26 AM
I'm by no means an expert, but with the little knowledge I do have - I can say with pretty much certainty that a Dane should NOT be bred at the age of 2. OFA is only done at the minimum age of 2, along with the rest of the tests. Secondly, a Dane can continue to grow and mature up until 3 yrs of age - so in my opinion, 3 would be the absolute earliest you would want to consider breeding.

I think lists like the above are dangerous and give the average 'Joe' the green light to go ahead because someone wrote it down and published it. The decision to breed should never be taken lightly, and what is right for one Dane (for example) at the age of 3 yrs old may not be right for another one at the same age. A reputable breeder will know their dogs well enough to make that decision, in my opinion.

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 08:30 AM
I think lists like the above are dangerous and give the average 'Joe' the green light to go ahead because someone wrote it down and published it. The decision to breed should never be taken lightly, and what is right for one Dane (for example) at the age of 3 yrs old may not be right for another one at the same age. A reputable breeder will know their dogs well enough to make that decision, in my opinion.

You are absolutely right about this statement Loki Love. People think that what they read is the gospel truth.
So I guess millers can also follow these guidelines then? It is no wonder animals cannot be seized then when you are breeding puppies to have puppies. It just does not sound logical to me. What it sounds like is the minimum age to pump out profit.:shrug: Oh yes...that is right, there is no money to be made in breeding..:rolleyes: It's a HUGE sacrifice to breed.

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 09:26 AM
Oh yes...that is right, there is no money to be made in breeding..:rolleyes: It's a HUGE sacrifice to breed.


Ok Seriously now... Which type of breeding are you talking about?
Here we go again, ALL breeding is EXACTLY the same right :wall:?
I guess by your logic it is safe to say that all rescues and shelters are the same then. If one does something sketchy all must be doing it too:rolleyes:.

Why is it that anytime there is a thread that gets under someones skin there is the need to try to kill it?
Do I agree with the publication of the list? Absolutely NOT. I completely agree that is doing nothing more than giving a sketchy breeder the green light to go ahead and breed young dogs as "the list said it was ok" Those breeder look for any reason to start breeding young, its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this. this list just packs amunition when then they are called on it.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 10:35 AM
Ok Seriously now... Which type of breeding are you talking about?
Here we go again, ALL breeding is EXACTLY the same right :wall:?
I guess by your logic it is safe to say that all rescues and shelters are the same then. If one does something sketchy all must be doing it too:rolleyes:.

Why is it that anytime there is a thread that gets under someones skin there is the need to try to kill it?
Do I agree with the publication of the list? Absolutely NOT. I completely agree that is doing nothing more than giving a sketchy breeder the green light to go ahead and breed young dogs as "the list said it was ok" Those breeder look for any reason to start breeding young, its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this. this list just packs amunition when then they are called on it.

Well, I remember reading on kijiji that there were 10 tibetan Mastiffs that will be ready to be sold for 2,500 - 3,000 each in February, that makes 25-30K for one litter :eek:. Have a few litters of 10 pups that would make 75-90K. Pretty good money ;). http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Tibetan-Mastiff-Puppies-W0QQAdIdZ252388192

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 10:38 AM
Ok Seriously now... Which type of breeding are you talking about?
Here we go again, ALL breeding is EXACTLY the same right :wall:?
I guess by your logic it is safe to say that all rescues and shelters are the same then. If one does something sketchy all must be doing it too:rolleyes:.

Why is it that anytime there is a thread that gets under someones skin there is the need to try to kill it?
Do I agree with the publication of the list? Absolutely NOT. I completely agree that is doing nothing more than giving a sketchy breeder the green light to go ahead and breed young dogs as "the list said it was ok" Those breeder look for any reason to start breeding young, its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this. this list just packs amunition when then they are called on it.

Goodness now...how about downing some cherios on that empty stomach of yours. Am I entitled to my opinion...last time I checked...YEP I most certainly am. Have I answered you like an arse...NOPE certainly have not.
I suggest you adjust your tone.

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2011, 10:41 AM
its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this

actually, just to clarify something, they don't plan breed, they put a male in with all the females and whatever happens happens. :offtopic::sorry:

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well, I remember reading on kijiji that there were 10 tibetan Mastiffs that will be ready to be sold for 2,500 - 3,000 each in February, that makes 25-30K for one litter :eek:. Have a few litters of 10 pups that would make 75-90K. Pretty good money ;). http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Tibetan-Mastiff-Puppies-W0QQAdIdZ252388192

wow........ that should absorb the costs and then some.... or at least cover the costs of purchase of breeding stock?

Loki Love
February 2nd, 2011, 10:56 AM
Well, I remember reading on kijiji that there were 10 tibetan Mastiffs that will be ready to be sold for 2,500 - 3,000 each in February, that makes 25-30K for one litter :eek:. Have a few litters of 10 pups that would make 75-90K. Pretty good money ;). http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Tibetan-Mastiff-Puppies-W0QQAdIdZ252388192

What you're referring to is clearly a BYB - not the same thing.

Reputable breeders don't advertise on kijiji. Did you also know that it's not uncommon for BYB to actually charge MORE for puppies than a reputable breeder would?

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 10:56 AM
Well, I remember reading on kijiji that there were 10 tibetan Mastiffs that will be ready to be sold for 2,500 - 3,000 each in February, that makes 25-30K for one litter :eek:. Have a few litters of 10 pups that would make 75-90K. Pretty good money ;). http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Tibetan-Mastiff-Puppies-W0QQAdIdZ252388192

I cant speak for who ever that is, depends on if they did their hips/elbow and eye screening, thyroid, canine brucellosis testing on both parents, progesterone testing, AI or shipped in even?? As for having a few litters with one TM, not going ot happen in one year, they only come into season once a year so you would only get one litter if you have one. Ethically you dont breed back to back either so TM litters are only once every two years, anyone who adheres to CTMS COE have signed that all the previous is done.
On the other hand, this could very well be a non breeding female in said ad who was not to be bred but is and pups sold with no registration so there fore no COE matter to said person and it would be all profit for them. Its a pretty broad brush we all get painted with, some of the hairs on it stray.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 10:56 AM
Here we go again, ALL breeding is EXACTLY the same right :wall:?
I guess by your logic it is safe to say that all rescues and shelters are the same then. If one does something sketchy all must be doing it too:rolleyes:.

Why is it that anytime there is a thread that gets under someones skin there is the need to try to kill it?
Do I agree with the publication of the list? Absolutely NOT. I completely agree that is doing nothing more than giving a sketchy breeder the green light to go ahead and breed young dogs as "the list said it was ok" Those breeder look for any reason to start breeding young, its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this. this list just packs amunition when then they are called on it.

You are right, not all breeding is the same, those poor pups in mills are abused, period, and it should be illegal.

I'll say it again, to think you can have those who are so passionate and give up their lives to save unwanted animals and then people start talking about bringing more into the world does not work. Humans are emotional and the more passionate they are, the more emotional they will be.

The one thing that makes Pets.ca such a wonderful site are the members who give up so much to save dogs and cats. It is the one site that is so pro spay/neuter that we can come and rant/talk/share. There are so many other dog forums out there that do have "breeding" forums that breeders could go to, I just don't understand why the few breeders stick around and throw it in rescuers' faces. It is like a kick in the gut.

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 10:58 AM
Goodness now...how about downing some cherios on that empty stomach of yours. Am I entitled to my opinion...last time I checked...YEP I most certainly am. Have I answered you like an arse...NOPE certainly have not.
I suggest you adjust your tone.

I am also entitled to my opinion and I can most certainly keep pointing out that not all breeders are the same.
Thanks for the "suggestion" I dont see the need though

Loki Love
February 2nd, 2011, 10:59 AM
The one thing that makes Pets.ca such a wonderful site are the members who give up so much to save dogs and cats. It is the one site that is so pro spay/neuter that we can come and rant/talk/share. There are so many other dog forums out there that do have "breeding" forums that breeders could go to, I just don't understand why the few breeders stick around and throw it in rescuers' faces. It is like a kick in the gut.

I'm certainly not a breeder, but I do support the reputable, ethical ones. It's unfortunate you feel I am not welcome here.

14+kitties
February 2nd, 2011, 11:00 AM
Reputable breeders don't advertise on kijiji. Did you also know that it's not uncommon for BYB to actually charge MORE for puppies than a reputable breeder would?


Just have to interject here. Reputable breeders do indeed advertise on kijiji. They are trying to push out some of the bybs and millers who advertise by offering their dogs at a slightly reduced cost than the bybs do. At least this is what I have read.

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 11:04 AM
I am also entitled to my opinion and I can most certainly keep pointing out that not all breeders are the same.
Thanks for the "suggestion" I dont see the need though

I would take the suggestion to heart.
Never did I say that all breeders are horrible. Never did I say I was anti-breeding. What I am saying is that some of the breeders even under the CKC are crap so who is governing what and who is saying who is a good or bad breeder? There are NO guidelines.

Personally erykah - since meeting you I have to say that you have definately opened my eyes. I really dislike breeders now. Heck I don't think I will give any of them a chance in the future. I should really stick to what I know, and leave the rest of you breeders to look the other way. BUt - I will be there to pick up the left over puppies and maybe adults that get mixed up in the system. You can count your cheerios on that.

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 11:06 AM
You are right, not all breeding is the same, those poor pups in mills are abused, period, and it should be illegal.
Absolutely

I'll say it again, to think you can have those who are so passionate and give up their lives to save unwanted animals and then people start talking about bringing more into the world does not work. Humans are emotional and the more passionate they are, the more emotional they will be.
I understand the emotions, I do. But to target breeders who do the best they can for their breed (even through rescue of them) and promote responsible breeding will not stop the real problem. If all reputable breeders stopped breeding do you think that would solve the mass production of mills and byb'ers? It wont.



The one thing that makes Pets.ca such a wonderful site are the members who give up so much to save dogs and cats. It is the one site that is so pro spay/neuter that we can come and rant/talk/share. There are so many other dog forums out there that do have "breeding" forums that breeders could go to, I just don't understand why the few breeders stick around and throw it in rescuers' faces. It is like a kick in the gut.

Maybe because we too like the site for the most part. If it is that offensive for the few breeders to come on here and try to educate the difference between breeders for anyone, even lurkers to read and hopefully change a few peoples minds who are considering buying a puppy mill or bargain back yard bred dog to know the difference in breeding ethics, then maybe a new rule should be made and all of us banned.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 11:06 AM
I'm certainly not a breeder, but I do support the reputable, ethical ones. It's unfortunate you feel I am not welcome here.

Don't take it personal :shrug:, I don't think I said: Loki Love you are not welcome here :rolleyes:. And why do you always attack me for my opinion :shrug:. Am I not allowed to have one :shrug: You just jump right on me every time I state my opinion and I am not even responding to one of your posts :shrug:.

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 11:11 AM
I would take the suggestion to heart.
Or???


Never did I say that all breeders are horrible. Never did I say I was anti-breeding. What I am saying is that some of the breeders even under the CKC are crap so who is governing what and who is saying who is a good or bad breeder? There are NO guidelines.

CKC is only a registry, its well known that they dont care who is breeding. Breeders with a breed club are governed by their club, registries do nothign but take money for registration.


Personally erykah - since meeting you I have to say that you have definately opened my eyes. I really dislike breeders now. Heck I don't think I will give any of them a chance in the future. I should really stick to what I know, and leave the rest of you breeders to look the other way. BUt - I will be there to pick up the left over puppies and maybe adults that get mixed up in the system. You can count your cheerios on that.

Yup, cause thats what we all do, look the other way. It doesnt bother me if you like me or not, hop on the band wagon around here. I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share. So if what I am sharing is so offensive and repulsive that I will soon be posting for the sake of taking up space on the site so be it.
I will count my cheerios that the puppies and adults mixed up in the "system" will not be from COE breeders.

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2011, 11:20 AM
I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share.

I don't know if that was individually directed or not but I take offense to that. I have many friends on this board that I have met, did I come here to meet them, nope, did I end up meeting them through other parts of my life, yes...... and I can tell you that most of the folks on this board that I know would walk through a burning house for an animal if I asked them to. I have breeder friends, I have rescue friends and I have breeder friends who rescue. Big deal, at the end of the day their hobbies or beliefs do not define them nor should they IMHO.

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 11:21 AM
Or???


CKC is only a registry, its well known that they dont care who is breeding. Breeders with a breed club are governed by their club, registries do nothign but take money for registration.



Yup, cause thats what we all do, look the other way. It doesnt bother me if you like me or not, hop on the band wagon around here. I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share. So if what I am sharing is so offensive and repulsive that I will soon be posting for the sake of taking up space on the site so be it.
I will count my cheerios that the puppies and adults mixed up in the "system" will not be from COE breeders.

Or nothing. I find all this breeding stuff alittle sickening to be honest. Share all you wish, I am totally turned off at this point.

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 11:47 AM
I have to make one more comment if I may.
A very VERY good friend of mine is a breeder. Believe it or not I was far more closed minded than I am today. She taught me so much about breeding and her mind set in this subject. I gained so much respect for her as she did put a heck of alot of money into her dogs. Those that were not considered good breeding dogs were never bred. They are her dogs now. She helped me tremendously during the Quebec husky crisis (something that some here do not know about). She took in a few, and rehomed, and kept tabs on them. She also kept a little monster dog I rescued as I could not reach this dog at all. She worked with him for months, re-homed, and he came back. She kept him as her own. She ceased breeding for a while as she saw that her beloved breed was in shelters (not her dogs, but others). She takes them in and re-homes as she saw a huge rescue requirement and not a breeding requirement. I respect her approach with me and also I embraced her education.
She in my opinion is a fantastic person and breeder. She knows when to stop based on our rescue crisis.
I never said I disliked good breeders, what I am saying is take a flipping break as she did based on what is seen across this nation in regards to animals being euthanized every darn day. Walk into pounds where they gas and hear the howls or the cats scream. Watch all those dogs going one at a time for the 'needle'. My heart breaks for every soul...I wish I never looked..but I did.

aslan
February 2nd, 2011, 12:01 PM
I think you have been on this forum long enough to know there is only one person who actively makes it know she plans on (or has already) bred, so I am not sure what audience you were targeting?


Also, since I don't think opinions have changed since the last closed thread about breeding, I am wondering what you were expecting from starting this thread?

Exactly what is going on right now as far as i'm concerned,,,no i will not bash Erykah for breeding if she is doing it ethically anymore than i would ever insult Benmax who i love to death(and yes i've met her in person)...I personally am sick and tired of this constant crap going on bashing each other back and forth.

erykah1310
February 2nd, 2011, 12:37 PM
She ceased breeding for a while as she saw that her beloved breed was in shelters (not her dogs, but others). She takes them in and re-homes as she saw a huge rescue requirement and not a breeding requirement. I respect her approach with me and also I embraced her education.
She in my opinion is a fantastic person and breeder. She knows when to stop based on our rescue crisis.
I never said I disliked good breeders, what I am saying is take a flipping break as she did based on what is seen across this nation in regards to animals being euthanized every darn day.
I cant speak for all breeders of every breed but for the TM breeders none of the CTMS breeders bred this year nor do any of us have the intention for next year for this exact reason.
Now, who ever bred in that kijiji link... Since having that breeding brought to my attention I have forwarded the link to all Canadian and many US breeders in the event that this is a non breeding dog that was sold to that area being bred. This is what the TM community that I am involved with does. We cant force a person to honor a contract and far too many people will sign anything thinking they will never be caught. I know all breeders are going through records upon recieving my email and trying to figure out where these pups origionated from.
If indeed it is a non breeding dog who was bred, they will be called out on it. Its happened a few times in the US and dogs were taken back.


BenMax, I truely and honestly respect all the work you do, I really cant thank you enough for devoting as much time and heartache to what you believe in, no matter how much bickering or disagreements we may have, my thoughts and opinons on anyone who opens their heart, homes, wallets ect to help animals in need, in anyway no matter how large or small, will always stand above a personal conflict I may have with a person.
I dont expect everyone to agree with breeding, I dont agree with most breeding practices and even my own breeding "program" needs some fine tuning, when a breeder walks around claiming they are doing everything right and nothing needs improving on.. this is where the problems start. However since working closely with some very wonderful breeders as my mentors and seeing first hand the work and dedication they have put into the breed and having them compared to the puppy mill on the next road over from me, with no recognition of the difference between the two, it is truely insulting to me.
Opinons will differ, as will beliefs and morals, but even breeders can and do have the same goal in mind as rescues. Keeping pets OUT of shelters and ensuring they find wonderful forever homes.

Rgeurts
February 2nd, 2011, 03:30 PM
While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 03:51 PM
While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.

I guess I look at it as: If you are adding to the dog/cat population, you are part of the dog/cat overpopulation. If you want to be part of the solution, then helping those who want a quality dog/cat by directing them to rescues/shelters and help find a quality dog/cat.

For the love of dogs, please help find homes for those who are currently living, rather than producing more. :yell:

BenMax
February 2nd, 2011, 04:28 PM
While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.

Already know that Rgeurts. No education is required to pinpoint the source of why so many breeds are butchered by bybs and millers. I can assure you this is understood.
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I hardly think I personally said that all breeders are horrific..I have said the contrary.
You are wrong about one thing. Once all testing is done, and a litter is sprung..and assuming all are ok., there is no further requirement to commence testing again unless you are adding a new breeding dog. I realize that the money made is put back into the breeding stock to perhaps find other dogs to fit the bill to continue to breed..this is by choice and not requirement. In the end, money is made somewhere along the line. It is not a lose lose situation.

Loki Love
February 2nd, 2011, 04:35 PM
Don't take it personal :shrug:, I don't think I said: Loki Love you are not welcome here :rolleyes:. And why do you always attack me for my opinion :shrug:. Am I not allowed to have one :shrug: You just jump right on me every time I state my opinion and I am not even responding to one of your posts :shrug:.

You're certainly allowed to have your opinion - I don't think I said 'Love4himies, you aren't allowed an opinion' (if we're going to play that game..:rolleyes:) I think sometimes when opinions are posted, you have to remember you may in fact be inadvertently driving members away and not making them feel welcome or comfortable to participate in discussions. That's all. Maybe people don't care about that, but I still find it sad that we have to be so divided. Have your opinion - but suggesting people who believe in reputable breeding find another forum.. sorry, it's pretty hard not to take offense to that - but I get it, it's your opinion.

I respect those of who you rescue. I've always been an advocate for rescue, but I don't think I should feel like a lesser member because I also support ethical breeding and own a dog that I bought from a reputable breeder.

I'm sorry you feel that I jump on you every time you state your opinion - it certainly isn't the case :) I simply state my opinion and call a spade a spade when needed.

Rgeurts
February 2nd, 2011, 04:46 PM
I guess I look at it as: If you are adding to the dog/cat population, you are part of the dog/cat overpopulation. If you want to be part of the solution, then helping those who want a quality dog/cat by directing them to rescues/shelters and help find a quality dog/cat.

For the love of dogs, please help find homes for those who are currently living, rather than producing more. :yell:

I totally understand what you're saying L4H, and personally, I completely agree with you. All I'm saying is not everyone does, and we all have our own opinions. I don't condemn Goldfields or erykah1310. They just have a different mindset than we do, but I don't think that warrants all the arguements and hurt feelings. If that's what they want to discuss, then discuss away, IMO. If i don't want to be part of it, I won't. No harm, no foul. At least they are responsible in what they are doing. But again, I do agree with you regarding not adding to the population.

Already know that Rgeurts. No education is required to pinpoint the source of why so many breeds are butchered by bybs and millers. I can assure you this is understood.
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I hardly think I personally said that all breeders are horrific..I have said the contrary.
You are wrong about one thing. Once all testing is done, and a litter is sprung..and assuming all are ok., there is no further requirement to commence testing again unless you are adding a new breeding dog. I realize that the money made is put back into the breeding stock to perhaps find other dogs to fit the bill to continue to breed..this is by choice and not requirement. In the end, money is made somewhere along the line. It is not a lose lose situation.

BenMax, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Not many people would give the way you do. But there is no need for you to be defensive to my comment. I didn't mention anyone in particular and I certainly did not say that you personally think all breeders are horrific. In fact, I don't think I said anything even remotely similar anywhere in my post.

You said I am wrong about one thing, that it isn't lose lose. I will have to say you are wrong in making such a general statement. A lot of breeders do make money. But responsible breeders often come up short and I'll give you an example of why:

A friend of mine had a litter. One of the pups had some medical issues. She could have easily just sold the pup and not had a care about it once it left her possession. But again, this is the difference between a responsible breeder and a bad breeder. She had the pup cared for and taken care of medically. It cost her more than she made on the litter. A bad breeder would have sold it "as is" or put it down, but she didn't. She took a loss on the litter and would again if that same situation arose. No matter how careful you are or how much testing you have done, things can (and do) happen. That is what I was referring to.

Love4himies
February 2nd, 2011, 07:48 PM
You're certainly allowed to have your opinion - I don't think I said 'Love4himies, you aren't allowed an opinion' (if we're going to play that game..:rolleyes:) I think sometimes when opinions are posted, you have to remember you may in fact be inadvertently driving members away and not making them feel welcome or comfortable to participate in discussions. That's all. Maybe people don't care about that, but I still find it sad that we have to be so divided. Have your opinion - but suggesting people who believe in reputable breeding find another forum.. sorry, it's pretty hard not to take offense to that - but I get it, it's your opinion.

I respect those of who you rescue. I've always been an advocate for rescue, but I don't think I should feel like a lesser member because I also support ethical breeding and own a dog that I bought from a reputable breeder. I think you need to look deeper into yourself than my posts or other "against breeding" members to find out why you would feel like a "lesser member" if you support ethical breeding. There are quite a few members on here who support ethical breeding and I don't think they feel like a "lesser member"

I'm sorry you feel that I jump on you every time you state your opinion - it certainly isn't the case :) I simply state my opinion and call a spade a spade when needed.

If you are truly sorry, then let me have my opinion and leave me alone :thumbs up.

Goldfields
February 2nd, 2011, 09:07 PM
I think you need to look deeper into yourself than my posts or other "against breeding" members to find out why you would feel like a "lesser member" if you support ethical breeding. There are quite a few members on here who support ethical breeding and I don't think they feel like a "lesser member"

If you are truly sorry, then let me have my opinion and leave me alone :thumbs up.

I certainly don't feel like a lesser member. I am still surprised though, even after being here so long, by how judgemental some perfect people can be. I would have thought that all this anger would be much better directed against byb's and puppy mills. That is your problem after all. (Oh, of course, none of those would show their faces here.)
Love4Himies, why don't you have , oh, 6 rescue dogs at least? Is that what you'd want me to have, regardless that I have 8 of my own retired show dogs(or those that weren't good enough to show)(plus 19 sheep, 2 ponies, 3 cats and a cockatoo) to feed? I know our financial position, you do NOT, and I won't lower the standard of care for my oldies or other animals in order to rescue and enable an irresponsible breeder or owner just to fill a gap in a pound here. My obligation is to my own animals. If I didn't feel that way, let's face it, I'd get canned for being a bad owner. What I have failed to mention, because my decisions really are my own business, is that our next cattle dog could very well be a rescue seeing I am not showing, although, golly, a lot that has been said really puts me off rescue people. My friend who bred my red Ch's is thinking along the same lines. She only has one left now, aged 14 1/2. I just hope that if we do this we don't start feeling perfect, I couldn't sleep at night if that happened. I have a bit more genuine love for my fellow human.

Blackbear
February 2nd, 2011, 09:19 PM
Members should only post to threads if they can remain civil and respect that other members have the right to their own opinions. There are some very thought-provoking posts in this thread--it's a shame to have to keep closing threads because of incivility.

This thread has run its course and will now be closed.