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Dog Rant ~ Case Against the Industry

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:17 AM
Please note: While I stand behind what I say, it is intended to spark serious discussion. So rather than simply say you agree or disagree, or toss names like cynic, cold, etc - please take the time to really think it over and provide reasons for your stance.

Against:

People domesticated dogs for work and companion reasons - mostly work.
The wolves never asked or needed it - we just did it. And today we have an insane number (ie. severe overpopulation) and kinds of breeds to choose from.

We claim to love dogs, but most originate from puppy mills - very few are prepared to pay the high cost of reputable pure bred breeders - and whether you got/get your dog from a rescue, spca, previous owner, street, friend - most of those came from some form of puppy mill (big or small) where conditions are horrifc and absolutely inhumane. So on the one hand you can tell yourself you are rescuing/saving/helping a dog, but once you know the real story.....More of a dilemna for those with a conscience and pricipled.

Then many people are in love with the IDEA of a dog, rather than the actual nitty gritty of owning and caring for a dog. But dogs aren't goldfish. Do you think a quick outside to relieve themselvelves, then gone all day at work, and then home to relieve again and hang out is enough? Is it proper care? Absolutely not! But some form of this picture is the norm. And then we are surprised when they develop serious behavioural problems. They can't walk on a leash without pulling everywhere and darting at all moving and smelly things. They bark too much. They are aggressive and over-excited with other dogs at the dog run. They turn in circles obsessively. The kinds of behaviours are too many to name here. And if this wasn't cruel enough, they throw up their hands in wonder and declare this dog is impossible and off they go back to spca, rescue, pound, etc; But even if they stick around, is this fair to the dog? Is this humane? Is this right?

What category do you fall into? I see a few that can be a fit for dogs - but even here, it is far too easy to be a bad dog owner. Retired couples or singles who are around during the day and have the time and interest to spend with dog. People who work at home. A stay at home partner - as long as they are on board with the dog idea. That's about it. Short-term situations don't cut it - like university student, unemployed, etc because they may be suitable for a time, but then you could well end up in the category above which isn't fair to the dog.

And even among those who are in a position to properly care for dogs, many are not prepared/willing/interersted/able to take the time train, exercise, groom, feed good food, socialize, dog run, etc;

Now you can say, "well I get home at the end of the end and she is so happy to see me - we hang out and get along and all is well" Thing is, she HAS to be happy to see you - you are the one that feeds and provides water - you take her out to go - she has been alone, bored, and probably anxious all day so of course your return is big news - a lot of it is instinctive also. That doesn't make it ok for you not to care for the dog in a humane way. The fact is, many if not majority of owners and future owners want a dog and feel they have a right to a dog. That it will be happy - or at least happier than at a pound, rescue, or wherever. But they SHOULD NOT GET ONE. It is a selfish and inhumane act - if they fall into the category described here. It ends up supporting the puppy mills generally indirectly (is it better if the dog is once or twice removed from a puppy milll or smaller puppy mill operation?)

Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Discuss...........

Melinda
January 17th, 2011, 08:26 AM
all I can add/say to that is man....did you get burned at some point. I'm a happy dog owner, my dog is happy, exercised , well , before her surgery and now have to wait 4 months. everything you've said has more or less been discussed to death on this and every other board concerning pets at some point or another. oh, and have a nice day *S*

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 08:30 AM
Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Discuss...........

I am with you on most points but certainly not all. Especially in what I quoted.

I am going to rock your boat alittle and say that the damage is done in respect to human's domesticating the dog. It's done, it's now part of society and it is not going to change to erraticate their existance. They are an important part of our culture and society.

As for your last paragraph, I would love to see the statitics to this. Lonely? Gaps in ones life? Comfort? Really? WOW - how desperate our society has become?:shrug:

This is very 'Peta-ish'. What exactly do you propose to do with the animals in sheters and pounds? Shall we just deny people for wanting an animal and being able to provide a loving life for them...deny them because they work and should not own a dog or CAT? How about Cats? How about rodents, birds, reptiles? WOW we are going to need alot of euthanol or gas to get rid of this nations animals. Just WOW!

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:33 AM
Like I said, I realise it is extra spicey and did so to generate some real discussion here. To say I've been burned at some point doesn't address any of the points.
And no, I haven't been burned, I'm just very conflicted about the dog industry.
And I don't think it applies to all dog owners obviously - I'm genuinely happy you are doing well with yours - but many if not majority - and also speaking to the principle of the dog industy and ownership in general.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Like I said, I realise it is extra spicey and did so to generate some real discussion here. To say I've been burned at some point doesn't address any of the points.
And no, I haven't been burned, I'm just very conflicted about the dog industry.
And I don't think it applies to all dog owners obviously - I'm genuinely happy you are doing well with yours - but many if not majority - and also speaking to the principle of the dog industy and ownership in general.

Where are your stats? Who do you volunteer for? What are you personally doing to help out the over population? Who are you exactly? What is your point and how do you propose to 'fix' it?

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:40 AM
Ben Max:
I realise there's no easy answer once there are all of these dogs out there and being bred. But the principle of it doesn't change.
Dare I say, reminds me of the Iraq war - admin says hey we admit it was wrong, but now that we're here, those darn Iraqis need us to stay and bring them democracy right.
As for stats, I have none, just some observations and common sense on the motivation behind pet ownership.
Keep in mind, we wouldn't be in this situation if we had cracked down a long time ago on breeding. At some point, things call for drastic measures.
Dare I say, like the US deficit, it will never be popular or advised for the admin in power to crack down on the super dire sitcho that is the US economy - and it will never be easy for the people when it happens - but does that mean ti should be allowed to continue as is?

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 08:40 AM
I like BenMax do agree with most points, some owners are NOT good owners because their poor dogs are left alone for 12-14 hours a day, or they are not properly exercised or stimulated. And the puppymill thing, couldn't agree with more.

But that last line: Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act. I have to so disagree with. There are thousands and thousands of very happy dogs who IMHO lead a better life than most humans on this earth. They are well taken care of and loved. They don't have to scrounge for food, they are vetted when they are sick and they receive (and give) unconditional love. Who could ask for a better life?

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 08:42 AM
Ben Max:
I realise there's no easy answer once there are all of these dogs out there and being bred. But the principle of it doesn't change.
Dare I say, reminds me of the Iraq war - admin says hey we admit it was wrong, but now that we're here, those darn Iraqis need us to stay and bring them democracy right.
As for stats, I have none, just some observations and common sense on the motivation behind pet ownership.
Keep in mind, we wouldn't be in this situation if we had cracked down a long time ago on breeding. At some point, things call for drastic measures.
Dare I say, like the US deficit, it will never be popular or advised for the admin in power to crack down on the super dire sitcho that is the US economy - and it will never be easy for the people when it happens - but does that mean ti should be allowed to continue as is?

Forget about the other issues outside of the animal thread issue that you just opened.
Ok no stats but 'observation'. Again - since you are so concerned, what are you personally doing about it?

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:44 AM
Ben Max:
Do I have to be someone or reference stats for the points to come across? I am a conflicted foster if that helps.
And how to fix it, well.....it's very tricky isn't it. Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:46 AM
Love4himies:
Absolutely, that was one of the extra spicey comments to get people here talking. It doesn't apply to all by any means.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 08:48 AM
Ben Max:
Do I have to be someone or reference stats for the points to come across? I am a conflicted foster if that helps.
And how to fix it, well.....it's very tricky isn't it. Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

You do not have to be anyone except to make comments like this, you SHOULD be someone that is working on how to fix the issues that have you 'conflicted'.

How are you a conflicted foster? Are you not getting something positive out of the experience? Do you feel that your efforts are futile?

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:51 AM
BenMax:
You ask what am I personally doing about it.
Well, like I said I am a conflicted foster.
I am an activist of sorts against the industry.
But I am an animal and dog lover as well.
It is VERY hard for me because I want to help somehow but I don't want to contribute to the system that created the enormous need for help in the first place.

Shaykeija
January 17th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Sigh...I hope the stick being used to stir the pot is a little one.....

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:55 AM
Shaykeija:
Meaning?

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 09:00 AM
Shaykeija:
Meaning?

I think she means that you are on a forum full of animal rescuers, animal welfare enthuasists, shelter workers, animal control officers, police officer, animal activists, citizens that are doing their upmost to help animals in need and animal loving citizens.

Shaykeija
January 17th, 2011, 09:00 AM
That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 09:11 AM
That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

There are some good points to what is written. Not too spicey but controversial.

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 09:11 AM
That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

I was thinking the same thing.

Name: BenMax is a person who has given up most of her life in rescuing dogs and cats. You are conversing with somebody who is not only extremely smart, but is a person of action to get something done/changed, she is not just words. ;)

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 09:20 AM
BenMax:
You ask what am I personally doing about it.
Well, like I said I am a conflicted foster.
I am an activist of sorts against the industry.
But I am an animal and dog lover as well.
It is VERY hard for me because I want to help somehow but I don't want to contribute to the system that created the enormous need for help in the first place.

An "activist against the industry"...well it is a multi billion dollar one (the industry) and it is going to take more than a handful of activists to change anything at all. There is already animal activists that have exposed the puppymill industry. There are boards of committees already in place to govern...very little action there unfortunately again due to the government being 'in charge' of this industry (I am talking about Canada only). There are people trying to change the animal abuse laws (again with very little progress..why? Because people complain but do not put pen to paper).

If you are fostering, then you are helping. This dog you are fostering would otherwise be in a freezer had you not reached out. You are doing something very important for that one dog. And hopefully you will continue to 're-cycle' because in essense that is what you are doing...as I do.

This is a big topic and a monster you just took on. You need to find a balance on how far you want to take it and what is feasible. Like I said, this is a monster of a journey, and self reflection on what you can do and what you cannot...alone.

Loki Love
January 17th, 2011, 09:39 AM
Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

What qualifies as 'good for the dog'? Unfortunately, this is subjective and you will never have everyone agree on this. Does good for a dog mean the prospective owners are home all day with that dog and yet never take it outside to play or interact in any other way? Or does good for a dog mean the owners work 9-5, leaving the dog alone but come home at night to spend 2-3 hours playing, interacting with the dog?

There's no easy answer, and you certainly will never come to a consensus.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 09:41 AM
Sheykija:
Oh I see. So more of a warning that if a fellow dog lover and helper raises some hard topics, it will be taken off because it's...? Upsetting? Totally defeats the purpose of discussion don't you think.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 09:46 AM
Ben Max:
Yes it is a monster of a journey.
Please remember, I am also speaking from a philosophical & ethical pov.
It can be more than only action or non-action - although it must be action as well.
It's ok to be conflicted, unsure, upset, angry, etc;
This is the reality of the situation.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 09:49 AM
Ben Max:
Yes it is a monster of a journey.
Please remember, I am also speaking from a philosophical & ethical pov.
It can be more than only action or non-action - although it must be action as well.
It's ok to be conflicted, unsure, upset, angry, etc;
This is the reality of the situation.

Indeed and this subject or these conflicts that you are having internally can put you over the edge. I suggest you take on something that you can handle. Generate dialogue with those you know or acquaintances. Do your own consensus and see what you come up with. You will be shocked.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 09:52 AM
Loki Love:
I agree. What's good for the dog is not entirely clear or clear cut. But...we can maybe try to arrive at some general consensus:
For example, if it's clearly better for the owner than the dog - in the sense that the owner is happy because the dog serves a function for them, but the owner isn't doing his/her part for the dog's well being? We can always say well it's not good, but being put down is far worse - well that's a slippery slope also - it can allow us to feel better when a dog is clearly not in a good situation - and one we would never ever give for our own dog - because we tell ourselves they could be in a pound or put down - or an even worse owner. Doesn't really change in the end what we as dog lovers/owners know to be the proper way to care for dogs.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 09:58 AM
BenMax:
Some projecting here perhaps?
It's both an internal and a collective conflict, and it's by no means going to put me over the edge.
And suggesting I take on something I can handle?? Really??
Wow, already 2 members would like the thread to go, and it's been what, 25 minutes?
Forums are not about fluffy only. If they are fair and honest and open, they cover a whole range of subjects - some light and others heavy.

marko
January 17th, 2011, 09:58 AM
As always when threads are civil they stay open.

I encourage people not to post if they cannot be civil.

This is indeed a spicy thread and it's a point I have thought of many times myself whether owning a pet is truly ethical.

My take on it, is that human beings are flawed and we are at the top of the food chain with (likely) the most developed brains. We therefore rightly or wrongly use/abuse the planet and its resources to our benefit...

I can say this though, rescuing a pet given the current state of affairs is very ethical and is a beautiful gesture. :goodvibes: :goodvibes:

Name
January 17th, 2011, 10:01 AM
marko:
Couldn't agree more. Civil is the key.

Loki Love
January 17th, 2011, 10:18 AM
Loki Love:
I agree. What's good for the dog is not entirely clear or clear cut. But...we can maybe try to arrive at some general consensus:
For example, if it's clearly better for the owner than the dog - in the sense that the owner is happy because the dog serves a function for them, but the owner isn't doing his/her part for the dog's well being? We can always say well it's not good, but being put down is far worse - well that's a slippery slope also - it can allow us to feel better when a dog is clearly not in a good situation - and one we would never ever give for our own dog - because we tell ourselves they could be in a pound or put down - or an even worse owner. Doesn't really change in the end what we as dog lovers/owners know to be the proper way to care for dogs.


I understand what you're saying, but it's still all subjective. What does it mean that an owner isn't doing his/her part? For some, feeding is enough and would be 'doing their part'. For others, a 1/2 hr walk per day is enough, while for others maybe they think dogs need 1-2 hours of exercise daily.

Proper care, again, is subjective. I may think I'm doing the best for Loki, but chances are I could talk to people and they would think I could be doing more. Does that make me a bad dog owner? I don't think so - but it proves how vastly different the opinions are on this.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 10:20 AM
BenMax:
Some projecting here perhaps?
It's both an internal and a collective conflict, and it's by no means going to put me over the edge.
And suggesting I take on something I can handle?? Really??
Wow, already 2 members would like the thread to go, and it's been what, 25 minutes?
Forums are not about fluffy only. If they are fair and honest and open, they cover a whole range of subjects - some light and others heavy.

So sorry that you are very sensitive to suggestion. I meant no ill feelings.
Take advice from Marko as to being civil please. Thank you.

marko
January 17th, 2011, 10:42 AM
Name: Although you are welcome here, you are a newbie that started a hot thread on post 1, please be respectful of our community and tread more lightly.

Please DO NOT respond to this comment but feel free to contact me by PM.

let's move the thread along civilly.

Thx -
Marko
ADMIN

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 10:49 AM
I think I understand why you got upset. I certainly did not mean that you cannot handle the issues, but I wanted to suggest to tackle one thing at a time or else it can become overwhelming.

For example: I work 'for' many rescues and shelters...actually I volunteer but it's extensive as to what I exactly do. I also am very close to many activists that take on the livestock issues. As they want me to participate in this as well and convert to vegetarainism or veganism...I am not prepared to do so because I cannot walk into this forum as well. I know I will loose it completely if I cross this line.
So in other words I do what I can for the areas where I feel comfortable and able to make a difference. I concentrate on a few things on the 'domestic animal side'. When I am comfortable to venture off to other aspects in regards to animal welfare, I will but for now, I cannot.

So my apologies if I sounded ignorant to your cause. It certainly was not meant to put your back up against a wall.

I think that this thread brings up many good points, and others that are alittle more questionable in my view.

violagirl
January 17th, 2011, 10:58 AM
This is an ethical debate that will never be resolved.
Do we forget that the lives of most animals and people on this planet are short and tragic?
Why worry about animals being bored during the day? In South Korea where my friend lives, when people get tired of their dogs there are very very few shelters if any to bring dogs to. Instead of humanely euthanizing their dogs, people bring their little Malteses up to a local mountain to live or die.
I love my dogs. I spend a lot of time training and interacting with them. But I realize they are animals. Any kindness I show them is more than most get.
Instead of thinking on such a large scale, which is pointless, why not look at the positive YOU can do? Every dog you foster or save..is one life changed.
I hardly think that adopting an animal as a pet to fill a void in a person's life is as selfish and selfserving or inhumane as you have argued.
If you think people are going to think YOU cold or a cynic, wait til you have to hear what I have to say next - I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously - Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it.

Maybe growing up in a family with butchers, hunters and farmers has made me a pragmatist.

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 11:05 AM
BenMax:
You ask what am I personally doing about it.
Well, like I said I am a conflicted foster.
I am an activist of sorts against the industry.
But I am an animal and dog lover as well.
It is VERY hard for me because I want to help somehow but I don't want to contribute to the system that created the enormous need for help in the first place.

When you say "industry" are you talking about puppymills or all the industry including shelters/rescues etc.?

Do you think fostering is contributing to the "industry"? I agree that those who buy pups who were bred in puppymills are contributing to dogs living in horribly inhumane conditions as they are financing the mills. Fostering, however is not supporting the mills (if you are fostering for a rep shelter/rescue) but giving up a piece of your life to help out one in need.

I think the best thing we can do is ask, would the dog rather be dead or live in my house? Would the dog rather be living a stressful life trying to survive or be alone a few hours a day? I am thinking if the dog had a choice it would be to be safe/fed/loved.

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 11:09 AM
If you think people are going to think YOU cold or a cynic, wait til you have to hear what I have to say next - I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously - Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it.



:eek::eek::eek: Although I don't believe in God or heaven, some do and we have to respect that. Some who don't, like to think the "rainbow bridge" is a fictional place that their beloved pet is now painfree.

Sorry Name to go off topic.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Love4himies:
By industry I mean mills, backyard breeders, pet stores, and not only in places like US/Canada where regulations and standards are in place (albeit seriously lacking) but the world - where there is far less, or even nothing in place.
And yes, I do think fostering is a part of the bigger picture - if x rescue asks x foster to head down to x pound and pick up x rescue dog who was dropped off because the breeder was done with it, or the owner can't handle it due to behavioural problems due to being a mutt that has been passed around and coming from a mill - then yes. A lot of the rescue/care/rehab dog sector is effectively helping out those irresponsible breeders who do it for money and know that there will always be help when they dump the dogs and move on.

14+kitties
January 17th, 2011, 11:15 AM
If you think people are going to think YOU cold or a cynic, wait til you have to hear what I have to say next - I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously - Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it.


Wow!! Way to win friends and influence people! :thumbs up ;)
We all have our own beliefs. If some of us want to believe there is a better place beyond this world we live in which, btw, includes a heaven for humans, then so be it. Some people believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Who am I to tell them they're wrong?

Now - back to the subject on hand.......

I really hope this thread is still open tonight so I can add my worthless :2cents: to it. :fingerscr

marko
January 17th, 2011, 11:21 AM
And yes, I do think fostering is a part of the bigger picture - if x rescue asks x foster to head down to x pound and pick up x rescue dog who was dropped off because the breeder was done with it, or the owner can't handle it due to behavioural problems due to being a mutt that has been passed around and coming from a mill - then yes. A lot of the rescue/care/rehab dog sector is effectively helping out those irresponsible breeders who do it for money and know that there will always be help when they dump the dogs and move on.

The people that foster are trying to solve the problem. Should they NOT help and let the animals suffer?

what would YOUR alternative be given that BYB and the industry is likely to go unchanged for years?

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:27 AM
And yes, I do think fostering is a part of the bigger picture - if x rescue asks x foster to head down to x pound and pick up x rescue dog who was dropped off because the breeder was done with it, or the owner can't handle it due to behavioural problems due to being a mutt that has been passed around and coming from a mill - then yes. A lot of the rescue/care/rehab dog sector is effectively helping out those irresponsible breeders who do it for money and know that there will always be help when they dump the dogs and move on.

There are not too many unethical breeders and/or puppymillers or BYB's that bother contacting a rescue, pound or shelter...they simply take it out back and hack it to death, shoot or club. So no worries really about them actually asking for assistance in this respect.

Note - reputable breeders do not turn to these outlets for assistance.

So why are you fostering a dog that requires a second chance? What is the purpose then? Why not just throw in the towl, contact the rescue, give the dog back and carry on with your quest whatever that may be?

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:30 AM
How do I PM Admin or others here? I think there is an email icon somewhere?

thanks

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:32 AM
How do I PM Admin or others here? I think there is an email icon somewhere?

thanks

I am sure that Marko will get you set up to PM.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:33 AM
BenMax:
True, but mill dogs end up with people who drop them for many reasons at pounds and rescues and on the street. As someone said here, recycling.
And as for me, well, I foster to try and help, make a little dent, but like I said, I have feelings/beliefs that don't jive with it - but I can live with it. The world isn't black and white.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:34 AM
BenMax:
Ok.

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 11:40 AM
Love4himies:
By industry I mean mills, backyard breeders, pet stores, and not only in places like US/Canada where regulations and standards are in place (albeit seriously lacking) but the world - where there is far less, or even nothing in place.
And yes, I do think fostering is a part of the bigger picture - if x rescue asks x foster to head down to x pound and pick up x rescue dog who was dropped off because the breeder was done with it, or the owner can't handle it due to behavioural problems due to being a mutt that has been passed around and coming from a mill - then yes. A lot of the rescue/care/rehab dog sector is effectively helping out those irresponsible breeders who do it for money and know that there will always be help when they dump the dogs and move on.

Thanks for the clarification.

I personally don't think millers/byb's give a rat's a$$ what happens to their "beloved" pups once they get their money. They only in it for the money. Soooooooooo, that leaves the poor dog who was bred by these incompetent, abusive humans who, through no fault of it's own is left homeless. Fostering is a positive way to help out an animal, that yes, does have feelings, that has been tossed aside by their owners. It is my opinion that fostering for reputable rescues/shelters in no way helping the millers.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:41 AM
BenMax:
True, but mill dogs end up with people who drop them for many reasons at pounds and rescues and on the street. As someone said here, recycling.
And as for me, well, I foster to try and help, make a little dent, but like I said, I have feelings/beliefs that don't jive with it - but I can live with it. The world isn't black and white.

I was the one that said recycling. Ugly to say but I like to keep things real.
I totally understand what you are getting at now in regards to puppymill dogs and how they wind up in rescue.

Well now...this is where I am not popular at all because I do not purchase mill dogs out and then put them into rescue. I have stayed away from this as it is putting money back into the miller's pocket. I struggle with this and I still have not found peace with my decision, but I must. Again, there are good arguements from those that do, I will NOT go up against them in that respect as I respect what they are doing.

The world is not black and white and nor is your topic. There will never be a blanket understanding or agreement to it.

In the end, it is not the animal be it dog or cat or anything else for that matter that asked to exist. They exist due to greed and profit. It is a huge industry. I wish I could share what I know but it is very lengthy and long and disturbing.

You are doing great by fostering. From there you can maybe put something together and make a huge impact on the industry as a whole.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:44 AM
marko:
Ideally, some hard legislation is badly needed. More funds/will to crack down on mills and backyard breeders. But sadly it doesn't seem that will happen. And it also doesn't address the flaky owners who pass dogs around at their whim, leave them in the street when they move or they develop some health problem, the child who wants a puppy like it's a toy, and all the rest of it. All we can do is try to strictly limit the number of new dogs that are bred/born - come down hard on non reputable breeders - and hope in time that man exisitng dogs find good homes. As always, far more will have to be put down regardless. Again, there are no easy answers to this. But without tough laws, there isn't any hope I feel. Some feel it would be cruel and interfere with people's right to own animals, but long gone are the days of slight measures and empty political promises.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:49 AM
marko:
Ideally, some hard legislation is badly needed. More funds/will to crack down on mills and backyard breeders. But sadly it doesn't seem that will happen. And it also doesn't address the flaky owners who pass dogs around at their whim, leave them in the street when they move or they develop some health problem, the child who wants a puppy like it's a toy, and all the rest of it. All we can do is try to strictly limit the number of new dogs that are bred/born - come down hard on non reputable breeders - and hope in time that man exisitng dogs find good homes. As always, far more will have to be put down regardless. Again, there are no easy answers to this. But without tough laws, there isn't any hope I feel. Some feel it would be cruel and interfere with people's right to own animals, but long gone are the days of slight measures and empty political promises.

You are starting to sound like us in rescue and/or shelters...:). It is something that we all face on a daily basis. And one questions why we are bitter, not socially inclined, lack tact, and are generally grumpy.:laughing:.
There are laws in place however it varies from region to region. It also is not on a high list of priorities for a change. And a change would result in a loss of revenue for the government.:eek:. Poor them.

I agree with you once again. Owning an animal should be a priveldge and not a right. As it stands right now, animals are objects without rights. If they remain 'objects' then they can be purchased which means they can be owned. It is the owner's 'right' to do with it as they will: basic food, shelter and water. That's the law. Is it right - NO.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:50 AM
BenMax:
Yes, best would be if you didn't have mill dogs to worry about in the first place. But the reality on the ground is incredibly bad and begs for compassionate action.
What is it you do - you mention buying dogs to put into rescue?
I would be interested to know more if you have the time.
All levels of action/involvement are helpful, but more and more I feel that something must give at the legislative/legal level if we are to make a dent in it.
Of course, doesn't stop us from helping in whatever way we can.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:51 AM
Name - what country are you in?

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 11:53 AM
BenMax:
Yes, best would be if you didn't have mill dogs to worry about in the first place. But the reality on the ground is incredibly bad and begs for compassionate action.
What is it you do - you mention buying dogs to put into rescue?
I would be interested to know more if you have the time.
All levels of action/involvement are helpful, but more and more I feel that something must give at the legislative/legal level if we are to make a dent in it.
Of course, doesn't stop us from helping in whatever way we can.

Oh no - I do NOT buy puppymill dogs. I am one that is against this but I will not intervene nor lecture to those that do.

I certainly have alot of time when it comes to animals. If I can help, then I will.:thumbs up

Name
January 17th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Name - what country are you in?

Canada.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 12:00 PM
Canada.

Ok - can you tell me what province. I am from Quebec and know abit about the happenings here. Every province is different.

marko
January 17th, 2011, 12:16 PM
marko:
Ideally, some hard legislation is badly needed. More funds/will to crack down on mills and backyard breeders. But sadly it doesn't seem that will happen. And it also doesn't address the flaky owners who pass dogs around at their whim, leave them in the street when they move or they develop some health problem, the child who wants a puppy like it's a toy, and all the rest of it. All we can do is try to strictly limit the number of new dogs that are bred/born - come down hard on non reputable breeders - and hope in time that man exisitng dogs find good homes. As always, far more will have to be put down regardless. Again, there are no easy answers to this. But without tough laws, there isn't any hope I feel. Some feel it would be cruel and interfere with people's right to own animals, but long gone are the days of slight measures and empty political promises.

+1, I totally agree :)

luckypenny
January 17th, 2011, 12:30 PM
Welcome to our forum, Name :).

People domesticated dogs for work and companion reasons - mostly work.
The wolves never asked or needed it - we just did it.

I think the domestication of dogs is a little more complex than this and has more to do with evolution. In early times, it would seem that the relationship was mutual; one needed the other in order to survive. If the topic interests you, there have been some very enlightening books and articles written on the subject.

DOGS A NEW UNDERSTANDING OF CANINE ORIGIN, BEHAVIOR, AND EVOLUTION...Raymond and Lorna Coppinger
WOLVES - BEHAVIOR, ECOLOGY, AND CONSERVATION...David Mech & Luigi Boitani, Editors
WILD CANIDS - THEIR SYSTEMATICS, BEHAVIORAL ECOLOGY AND EVOLUTION....Michael Fox, editor
DOGS - DOMESTICATION AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF A SOCIAL BOND...Darcy Morey
INSIDE OF A DOG - WHAT DOGS SEE, SMELL AND KNOW...Alexandra Horowitz

Forgive me, I'm a book worm :o.

We claim to love dogs, but most originate from puppy mills - very few are prepared to pay the high cost of reputable pure bred breeders - and whether you got/get your dog from a rescue, spca, previous owner, street, friend - most of those came from some form of puppy mill (big or small) where conditions are horrifc and absolutely inhumane. So on the one hand you can tell yourself you are rescuing/saving/helping a dog, but once you know the real story.....More of a dilemna for those with a conscience and pricipled.

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean that adopting from a rescue/shelter/pound or any 'second hand' dog is contributing to the irresponsible breeding of them? I don't see it that way at all. It's all about the laws of supply and demand. If more people are adopting, less are going to pet stores, puppymills, byb's, and breeders in general. The less the demand from people of these sources, the less supply.

Personally, I am seeing some results of this. They may be miniscule but it's positive change nevertheless. There have been some puppymills and byb's that shut down in our area and contacted rescues/shelters to take the last of their dogs off their hands. Pet shops that supply animals are becoming fewer. As the public becomes increasingly educated, the demand from them is down and their businesses are no longer profitable.

Then many people are in love with the IDEA of a dog, rather than the actual nitty gritty of owning and caring for a dog. But dogs aren't goldfish. Do you think a quick outside to relieve themselvelves, then gone all day at work, and then home to relieve again and hang out is enough? Is it proper care? Absolutely not! But some form of this picture is the norm. And then we are surprised when they develop serious behavioural problems. They can't walk on a leash without pulling everywhere and darting at all moving and smelly things. They bark too much. They are aggressive and over-excited with other dogs at the dog run. They turn in circles obsessively. The kinds of behaviours are too many to name here. And if this wasn't cruel enough, they throw up their hands in wonder and declare this dog is impossible and off they go back to spca, rescue, pound, etc; But even if they stick around, is this fair to the dog? Is this humane? Is this right?

That's the sad truth, isn't it :( . It's my opinion that this (along with not neutering) is the main reason for the pet overpopulation in shelters and pounds all over the world. As much as there isn't anything else I'd love more, there's nothing I can do about it in the grand scheme of things. But on a very much smaller level, I can do my very best to educate others before they get that puppy or dog. It's why I chose to foster. I can get to these people (most whom I like to believe have the best intentions, just not the best knowledge) in order to prepare and educate them. I've come across many families who have either changed their minds about adopting, or opted to adopt breeds and ages of dogs better suited to their lifestyles. Although it may mean one less home now, it also means a potentially better home in the future.

What category do you fall into? I see a few that can be a fit for dogs - but even here, it is far too easy to be a bad dog owner. Retired couples or singles who are around during the day and have the time and interest to spend with dog. People who work at home. A stay at home partner - as long as they are on board with the dog idea. That's about it. Short-term situations don't cut it - like university student, unemployed, etc because they may be suitable for a time, but then you could well end up in the category above which isn't fair to the dog.

For me, it depends entirely on the unique family situation and on the unique dog. Of course there is always an exception to the rule. I've seen first time owners that work full-time turn out to be the very best guardians providing their adoptees with the very best care, not with perceived needs but, with the essential needs of their individual dog. It's been an amazing experience for me to witness this. I also think LokiLove has made some very valid points on this issue.

What category I fit into? I've been very fortunate to afford the luxury of choosing to stay home when necessary, working part-time, or full-time if dh is able to work part-time or not at all. I've been able to move into an environment that is better suited to our dogs....actually, I should rephrase that...I've been able to move to an environment that suits my needs so that I'm enabled to take better care of my dogs. That being said, we've made our decisions because of the individual dogs we have and their particular issues. Had we have adopted well-adjusted dogs from the beginning, I don't think we would have moved and I'd still be working full-time :shrug:.

Am I the best guardian? Do I provide them with everything they need? I can think of a thousand things I'd like more to do with them but, I consciously do the very best I can and I have to be satisfied with that.

Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

This is very subjective. But for what ever various reasons people get pets, I agree, it's a two-way street.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Breeding for profit? Yes, I agree, very self-serving. But owning a dog, or any pet for that matter? If someone has a need to take care of and properly provide for another living being, even if it is ultimately self-serving to a certain degree, I see nothing wrong with it.

It all boils down to education, doesn't it? The more we know, the more we are empowered to act on any level; especially on a personal level where we have the opportunity to touch the lives of those around us. With you being a foster, and foremost an animal lover and advocate, I hope you realize the opportunity this gives you to educate others and in turn, have them continue to educate.

Thank you for doing what you do, Name. You are making a difference.

BenMax
January 17th, 2011, 12:45 PM
Nicely said LP.:thumbs up.
LuckyPenny does do alot of reading (that's an understatement LP :laughing:)and very informative as well.

Love4himies
January 17th, 2011, 01:01 PM
Well said LP :highfive:

aslan
January 17th, 2011, 01:07 PM
I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously
I'm sure most of the members here will agree that i am one of the more controversial members here and most definately wont fall under your " bleeding heart" title..so you may just not like what I have to say.
- Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it. .

The comment you made is not only uninformed but extremely arrogant don't you think. What makes you or anyone else think they are better than another creature,,because we're supposedly smarter,,man created weapons capable of destroying our planet,,yup that's genious,,we've gradually ruined our environment,,one again absolute brilliance,,,who says an animal doesn't have intelligence to create,,they just possibly know better..Have you ever watched how animals interact? They are loyal, creative,,etc..Of my 3 dogs i have no doubt that each of them would give their life to protect their family both fur and skin,,,how many humans would actually do that. As for the fact an animal has a short life,,who says living 100yrs is wonderful,,seriously. Did the sentence " only the good die young" ever come to mind?

To: Name,,,unfortunately be it good or bad man has created the animal situation and all the typing and whining on a forum about it isn't going to fix it,,being active like BM, and the others helps,,writiing your politicians helps,,trying to make a change helps.

mastifflover
January 17th, 2011, 03:07 PM
Well according to you I am a bad dog owner and should give up my dog. I work 12-14 hours a day. I have a dog walker but that is not good enough for your standards. I love Clark and if I did not own him he most likely have been put down he has some serious issues that he came with. From a family and you seem to think if you are single you should not have a dog because that is selfish. Well he came from a home where there was someone home with him and they did not socialize him with anyone other than his family when I got him at 3.5 he had paws that were still pink in other words he was never walked anywhere. Clark gets at least 3 walks a day during the week when I am working and we spend weekends and nights together. But I guess he would be better being put down than living with me where he is alone during the day, fed well and vetted. I have not purchased a dog in over 25 years I only would get a dog from a shelter or a rescue, but after all the nonsense you have stated you have made me see the light. Maybe I should just take him and dump at a shelter and being a bad owner who works to hard or should I quit my job oh but you also think unemployed people should not own pets either. Oh and Clark keeps me company and that is also a reason I own a pet I don't think he feels bad about being loved and cared for and he likes when I talk to him. So if you are rich and someone is home all day are the only people who should own dogs. I think you have been reading too much PETA crap. I imagine you are an ardent supporter of the ban on PB and Staffs.That will help to eliminate pets. You have no facts and you really have not said what you are doing to improve the situation other than starting a debate, in other words you are really doing nothing.

mastifflover
January 17th, 2011, 03:19 PM
This is an ethical debate that will never be resolved.
Do we forget that the lives of most animals and people on this planet are short and tragic?
Why worry about animals being bored during the day? In South Korea where my friend lives, when people get tired of their dogs there are very very few shelters if any to bring dogs to. Instead of humanely euthanizing their dogs, people bring their little Malteses up to a local mountain to live or die.
I love my dogs. I spend a lot of time training and interacting with them. But I realize they are animals. Any kindness I show them is more than most get.
Instead of thinking on such a large scale, which is pointless, why not look at the positive YOU can do? Every dog you foster or save..is one life changed.
I hardly think that adopting an animal as a pet to fill a void in a person's life is as selfish and selfserving or inhumane as you have argued.
If you think people are going to think YOU cold or a cynic, wait til you have to hear what I have to say next - I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously - Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it.

Maybe growing up in a family with butchers, hunters and farmers has made me a pragmatist.

Compassion is obviously one of your strong points. I really love this line Any kindness I show them is more than most get. Sorry but they eat dogs and cats in Korea so I'm sure there is they are looked at as meals not much more

luckypenny
January 17th, 2011, 05:48 PM
Mastifflover, for what it's worth, it's homes like yours that I appreciate when applying for fosters...because regardless of the situation, or any changes, you do what's necessary and go beyond to provide for your companion.

I'm sure there are many here that can share stories of owner surrenders where you come upon people who have the means and resources to offer a wonderful life yet, you arrive at the home and they can't toss the animal out fast enough, like the morning trash. And we all see the lovely homes with the expensive cars yet there's a 'guard dog' tied up behind the fancy decorative fencing. Guarding what? Perhaps the few blades of grass he's lucky enough to pee on :(. What one has doesn't make a good guardian, it's what one does that's important.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:34 PM
Ok - can you tell me what province. I am from Quebec and know abit about the happenings here. Every province is different.

Quebec also.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:39 PM
luckypenny:
Some of your reply I agree with and other things not. Thank-you for the welcome and reading.

Name
January 17th, 2011, 08:43 PM
mastifflover:
I don't expect you to agree - but in a nutshell, yes, I think deciding to own a dog when you are away 12-14 hours a day is not fair to the dog. I realise this doesn't make me popular here, but hey - didn't join to win votes - joined to learn a lot and speak my mind too.

mastifflover
January 17th, 2011, 08:46 PM
Thanks LP. I do not take owning a pet lightly. I was lucky to have had parents who were animal lovers and grew up with them and the responsibility that came with them. They also believed animals help teach kindness and compassion too. My life would not be as full without animals in it some of the people I could do without. Try and imagine waking up with no animals in your life I can't.

14+kitties
January 17th, 2011, 10:39 PM
As normal I am late into this discussion. Too busy working I guess. ;) But here's my :2cents: worth anyway.

According to some research the domestication of dogs occured somewhere around 100,000 years ago. Popular belief says only 14,000 years. Even at 14,000 years it's a tad bit late (no pun intended) to be throwing them back to the wolves, isn't it?

You say working folks have no right to have a dog and yet .... let me tell you a little story. When I was raising my children and working (single mom) my dogs would be at home waiting patiently for me. My children would come and go throughout the day - school, their jobs, etc. The dogs were never alone for that long of a time. They would tell me when they came in Keesha, "my" dog, would lift her head to see who was home and promptly go back to sleep. The minute I walked in the door she was up, running to me, and would not leave my side for the rest of the time I was home. She is, sadly, not doing that as much any more but then again she is 16+ years old. So where does your theory of "they have to be happy to see you" fit? My children were quite capable of feeding and watering the dogs. In fact they quite often did. My bigger dog was happy with whoever came through the door. She loved everyone. Not so with my little one. Did that make me a bad owner? Would I be included in one of those not fit to have a dog? Now of course I am home more often. I only work part time. I have a partner who mostly works from home so there is usually someone around. I still have two dogs. Both are old and probably not going to be with us much longer. Does that mean I shouldn't get another? After all, another dog would be "filling a gap" would it not?

I agree with your comment about breeders. Some charge exhorbitant prices for their dogs which does turn away the average Joe. But then you say the average Joe shouldn't have one anyway (basing that on the fact that Joe would have to be out working all the time). But from the people I speak with a lot of them are going to the shelters or looking for a rescue for a pet.

I do believe the message is getting out there slowly about puppy mills, pet stores, and bybs. I do my part every chance I can to dissuade people from buying from stores. I ask people to go and get their new pet from a shelter or a rescue and explain about the overpopulation of both dogs and cats.

I too would love to see some stats as to why people get a pet. Maybe to a small degree some folks might get one because they are lonely. I have found in talking pets to people almost every day of my life that most get one because they miss the companionship of a pet. Funny, a stuffed dog or cat just doesn't cut it.

Love4himies
January 18th, 2011, 07:00 AM
mastifflover:
I don't expect you to agree - but in a nutshell, yes, I think deciding to own a dog when you are away 12-14 hours a day is not fair to the dog. I realise this doesn't make me popular here, but hey - didn't join to win votes - joined to learn a lot and speak my mind too.

I do agree with this to a certain extent, if the person is soul guardian of the dog and if that person is too busy/tired when they are home to pay the dog any attention (I guess that would be true for somebody working only 3 hours a day too). However, if you are up early to run the dog and give the dog a good walk after work and on weekends have activity time.

On the flip side, if the dog was given a choice:
1. dead
2. scrounge/fight for food/territory
3. bored

I am thinking the dog would pick option #3.

Love4himies
January 18th, 2011, 07:01 AM
luckypenny:
Some of your reply I agree with and other things not. Thank-you for the welcome and reading.

Please enlighten us with what you agreed/disagreed with.

marko
January 18th, 2011, 07:41 AM
Thanks for the overall civility in this hot thread.

Thx - Marko

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 08:05 AM
Honestly Name I really don't care what you think, because you don't think it is fair for me to own a dog because I work too much. I work in film and those are the hours we work. There is also times I am off for weeks at a time Clark and as we speak is sound asleep and I spend most of my time at home with him. But I could say the same of people with kids they get up feed them parents dump them off at daycare pick them up feed them then they sit in front of a TV or computer and then put them to bed. Most of the time they are working from home when they get there, I guess they should not be allowed to have kids. By your way of thinking. I know that Clark would do anything to protect me and that makes me love my crazy boy more. Just as I will do anything I have to for him

shirley1011
January 18th, 2011, 08:22 AM
Mastifflover....most families work! There would be a lot of pets without homes if you weren't allowed a dog if you work!
On this top Name...is WRONG WRONG WRONG
Of course everyone wants to spend more time with their pets but life is what it is and in my opinion, if the pet is loved and cared for way better than the other alternatives......

My anger is directed to people who get dogs and then decide they can't make time and give them away and think they are disposable.....

It takes a lot of caring as you do Mastifflover to work and give your dog so much love and attention....my hat is off to you and all the others here who do what they can for their pets, for rescue and the pet community.

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Thanks Shirley I am by no means a perfect owner sometimes he gets the short end of the stick when it comes to time but I try and make up for it. I do the best I can as most of us do.

My anger is directed to people who get dogs and then decide they can't make time and give them away and think they are disposable.....

Which is basically Clarks story not trained properly bit the kid not seriously (but would you leave a 2 or 3 year old alone with a dog chewing a bone)DUH Of course having second kid can't deal with the idea the dog may bite again. Hey what about training him, no just get him a new home. I think if you can't train the dog I can imagine what your kids will be like.

aslan
January 18th, 2011, 08:51 AM
I have a question for both Name and Violagirl,,when dealing with a dog like Clark would you bother putting the effort in that masstifflover has or in your views should he just be destroyed to make room for another rescue. Clarks social skills are far from perfect but having met both Mastifflover and Clark and seeing how much care she puts into dealing with him in public and seeing what a love muffin he is if he likes you,,seriously what would your approach be with him?

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 09:18 AM
Clarks social skills are far from perfect
your kidding :wall::laughing:

Well unless you are Grace than he is a kissing machine

Thanks:thumbs up

BenMax
January 18th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Well Mastifflover, I do know Clark and I personally could not help him even into rescue. When you adopted and I was kept up to speed on your dedication, I was amazed that Clark lucked in to someone so wonderful and loving. He definately WAS a case where one would give up hope and just let him go to yes...'RAINBOW BRIDGE'. (Oops - I am a spiritual person and do believe in 'nonsense')!

I am also a HORRIBLE pet owner. Yes I also have 2 behavioural problem dogs and one very ill foster boy that only has maybe a year of life left. All slated for euthanasia, all came to me for behavioral assessment and modification, all failed miserably so yes to preserve their life I adopted them. They are all quirky and now to add to this, my life now entails a man (also in rescue) with 2 big breed troubled dogs. All have issues that even we cannot fully remedy. But we love them so much.:). They get 4 walks, play time in packs (due to size..ranging from 5 lbs to 155 lbs), get the best of food, and treats and most of all they get QUALITY time and maybe not quantity of time.

The cats (4 now) are independant and really spoiled rotten. They come to us when they want and ask for very little...but again they get quality of time.

Let's not mention that I work full time (totally cheating here) and also work rescue during the day (cheating again), rescue at night, evaluations at shelters or someone's request, then weekends once again involve networking, transporting and/or more requests to evaluate. Everything gets squeezed in, but one thing for sure, my pets get what they get to the best of my ability.

I am a HUGE believer in giving everyone the opportunity to have an animal within logical reason. If it is a lonely elderly person who wants a cat and they are good people, then yes they get a cat of a certain age. I believe that they have that right to own even though they may be an older person.

Love is rare. If someone is able to provide that and can financially take care of this, then why not?

Again - my bad. I gave my daughter a cat (in University). I am her back up financially and also if she goes on vacation. My bad.

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Believe me there are times he really makes me think can I do this? After Bud he is the total opposite end of the spectrum. I took him everywhere, not Clark. But he really is a super sweet boy one on one. We avoid his triggers mostly. He is definitely a work in sloooow progress. They never socialized him so crowds are the worst for him and of course I live on Queen West very busy street so it is always fun going for a walk.

BenMax
January 18th, 2011, 10:00 AM
Believe me there are times he really makes me think can I do this? After Bud he is the total opposite end of the spectrum. I took him everywhere, not Clark. But he really is a super sweet boy one on one. We avoid his triggers mostly. He is definitely a work in sloooow progress. They never socialized him so crowds are the worst for him and of course I live on Queen West very busy street so it is always fun going for a walk.

You have done well by him Mastifflover. More so than anyone would. :offtopic: Some things you will not be able to 'fix' with Clark. As we must accept each other as we are, we must have the same philosophy when it comes to animals as well.

I think you are an amazing home. Would I ever adopt to you....in a heartbeat.

Chris21711
January 18th, 2011, 11:25 AM
hey - didn't join to win votes - joined to learn a lot and speak my mind too.

So far you haven't won my vote......I hope you learn lots, there are very informed members on this site......as for speaking your mind.....that's when things get deleted.

aslan
January 18th, 2011, 12:01 PM
Clarks social skills are far from perfect
your kidding :wall::laughing:

Well unless you are Grace than he is a kissing machine

Thanks:thumbs up

:laughing::laughing: Grace likes the term " facial exfoliater".

violagirl
January 18th, 2011, 07:14 PM
I have a question for both Name and Violagirl,,when dealing with a dog like Clark would you bother putting the effort in that masstifflover has or in your views should he just be destroyed to make room for another rescue. Clarks social skills are far from perfect but having met both Mastifflover and Clark and seeing how much care she puts into dealing with him in public and seeing what a love muffin he is if he likes you,,seriously what would your approach be with him?

I am not familiar with Clark. But it sounds like he was an undersocialized dog that bit a kid whose parents decided that it was a good idea to let a small child play near a dog with a bone? I'm assuming it was a warning bite and my beef would not be with the dog but the people.

In my opinion all of the 3 dogs and 3 cats that I have decided to bring into my home are my responsibility for the rest of their lives so if Clark was my dog I would redouble my training efforts.

On the other hand it might be a tougher call if I were a shelter worker and could only take one more dog and a dog that has behaviour problems and has previously shown food aggression comes in along with say a dog that has high energy or is a little jumpy.

aslan
January 18th, 2011, 07:18 PM
I am not familiar with Clark. But it sounds like he was an undersocialized dog that bit a kid whose parents decided that it was a good idea to let a small child play near a dog with a bone? I'm assuming it was a warning bite and my beef would not be with the dog but the people.

In my opinion all of the 3 dogs and 3 cats that I have decided to bring into my home are my responsibility for the rest of their lives so if Clark was my dog I would redouble my training efforts.
I'm glad to hear you say that.:thumbs up

On the other hand it might be a tougher call if I were a shelter worker and could only take one more dog and a dog that has behaviour problems and has previously shown food aggression comes in along with say a dog that has high energy or is a little jumpy.
Now this is where we would differ,,I would take the dog with the food aggression and try and help him/her overcome a situation they aren't responsible for since the one with high energy or jumpy would stand a little better chance of being adopted out elsewhere.

violagirl
January 18th, 2011, 07:25 PM
I'm posting on a pet message board. I obviously don't hate animals.;) I just don't agree with the humanization of animals. But hey! I never thought I would be one of those people bringing 3 dogs to doggie daycare either but here I am.:shrug:

aslan
January 18th, 2011, 07:33 PM
I'm posting on a pet message board. I obviously don't hate animals.;) I just don't agree with the humanization of animals. But hey! I never thought I would be one of those people bringing 3 dogs to doggie daycare either but here I am.:shrug:

there is a difference in humanizing an animal and giving it the same respect and love you would give a skin child. Think about it,,the dogs and cats won't ever ask to borrow the car keys...seriously now,,,i don't understand where mankind got the impression that we are better than. Guarantee the only one who thinks that " is mankind".

Etown_Chick
January 18th, 2011, 07:51 PM
I take better care of my dog than a lot of people do of their kids. Yes, I do wonder at times if all his little puppy needs are being met, but it beats the life he had on the streets before I got him.

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by violagirl
I am not familiar with Clark. But it sounds like he was an undersocialized dog that bit a kid whose parents decided that it was a good idea to let a small child play near a dog with a bone? I'm assuming it was a warning bite and my beef would not be with the dog but the people.

Undersocialized is an understatement I am convinced the only socialization he received was with his family. It was most definitely the parents fault you never leave a child alone with a pet dog or cat. He most likely have been dumped or PTS by the next owner especially not being given all of his issues by the ex owners. I was told about the bite and since children are not an issue in my home that was not a problem for me. And the bite being there fault not his. They did not disclose all the issues to me and boy was I surprised when 2 days after I got him when he started to exhibit all these bad behaviors. I actually did not trust him for a long time. I now know he would not hurt me but he would hurt someone who he even perceived as a threat to me. Those are the basics on Clark but he could not go to most rescues because of his bite history so his chances of survival were slim because of stupid people. He was obviously the product of a byb or mill because if he came from a reputable breeder they would want him back when I said this to the owner he said they were a reputable breeder, but if they were they would never have sold this couple a bull breed they were not experienced owners. So there is the lowdown on him and in all honesty if I would have had all the facts I may not have adopted him but I did and he is my responsibility and I do my best to keep him safe and others safe from him. But if he likes you he is an absolute sweetheart and you would think he was a very well adjusted boy.

Now this is where we would differ,,I would take the dog with the food aggression and try and help him/her overcome a situation they aren't responsible for since the one with high energy or jumpy would stand a little better chance of being adopted out elsewhere.

I agree with Aslan on this I would take the dog with food aggression for the same reasons. Also knowing the issues right from the start you go in with open eyes and know what you are signing on for.

Mills and BYB are such a huge problem they breed these dog and could careless about them or how they turn out they want money and that is it. I am not a big fan of buying a dog since there are so many needing homes, But if I was to buy a dog it would be from a reputable breeder who grilled me about why I would be a good owner and how the dog would be cared for. This is what reputable breeders do they do all the health testing and vetting of the pups and you sign a contract and if for any reason you cannot keep the dog they get the dog back period. Most do not come back because they check out potential owners pretty thoroughly and find out how committed they are to owning a dog for its whole life, also if you are buying from a breeder you are not getting a puppy right away and that also tends to weed out some owners who are not willing to wait for a planned breeding but those are the ones who go get a dog from a mill or byb then decide they don't have time for it or it has many health issues and dump it.

I obviously don't hate animals. I just don't agree with the humanization of animals.

So you are of the mind that they are possessions and should not be treated as well Humanizing them is not wrong they are living breathing beings who deserve respect and love

violagirl
January 18th, 2011, 08:53 PM
I respect all life, I just think there is a difference between animal and human.

So I think dogs have a certain degree of emotions and feelings but if I had to choose between the life of a child and a dog, I wouldn't pick the dog.

By your definition then, since humans are just arrogant animals, would cannibalism be any different than having a steak? Granted, that is an extreme view. I am not in any way advocating cannibalism. or steak.

mastifflover
January 18th, 2011, 09:16 PM
I respect all life, I just think there is a difference between animal and human.
Your right animals are more compassionate and loving than most humans I prefer more of the animals that I meet than the humans.

By your definition then, since humans are just arrogant animals, would cannibalism be any different than having a steak? Granted, that is an extreme view. I am not in any way advocating cannibalism. or steak.

Funny I don't think anyone defined us arrogant animals but were you looking for someway to bring vegetarianism into the picture so you could say we are hypocrites.

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 04:43 AM
I respect all life, I just think there is a difference between animal and human.

So I think dogs have a certain degree of emotions and feelings but if I had to choose between the life of a child and a dog, I wouldn't pick the dog.

By your definition then, since humans are just arrogant animals, would cannibalism be any different than having a steak? Granted, that is an extreme view. I am not in any way advocating cannibalism. or steak.

You know i'm sure the same sentence has been said multiple times over the course of history. When the better than whites thought it was ok to load a bunch of dark skinned africans on a boat bring them to North America to chain and use as slaves,,why because they were different,,or Hitler and his army killing millions of jews and polish,,why because they were different, Gays being bashed, planes being flown into the trade centers need i go on. We as human beings are the most arrogant species on earth. We deem it acceptable to bash, kill, belittle etc anything that isn't exactly what we consider the norm..Would it be acceptable to lock a bunch of men and women in cages to do nothing but produce children for their entire lives...NO,,but some think it's ok to treat animals that way,,,why....because they're different.

Do i eat steak,,yes,,,do i eat human,,,rotfl,,so not responding to that.:laughing::laughing:..do i think less of someone who is vegan or vegitarian,,nope two of my fav people on this forum fall under that catagory. Do i like the way animals are treated to produce the meat i eat,,nope thus i'm moving somewhere that i can provide my own more humanely.

None of which is dealing with the original topic which as far as i'm concerned was brought up by someone who had nothing better to do on a snowy day and hasn't been back since the snow stopped. To walk into a forum where people spend massive amounts of time and resources to try and help in some little way to clean up the mess that a group of arrogant humans created,,call them " bleeding hearts" as far as i'm concerned isn't a display of respecting life it was an out and out slap in the face. I hope that if my home is ever in trouble and my fur kids are inside that any of the members here are there to assist minus one.

mastifflover
January 19th, 2011, 05:34 AM
So I think dogs have a certain degree of emotions and feelings but if I had to choose between the life of a child and a dog, I wouldn't pick the dog.

I notice you use a child in this scenario why do you consider them more important then adults or did you figure nobody would say the dog when compared to a child. Well to be totally honest it would depend on the situation. If it was a choice between a dog and Michael Vick I would surely save the dog. Call me anything you want for my answer but its honest. I am a "bleeding heart" when it comes to animals it is our job to protect them from people like you who think they are just possession and will throw them out like garbage when they don't fit into our perception of what and how they should be and how they should act.
One more thing that was brought up was that single people should not own dogs because it is selfish. I am willing to bet more dogs are dumped by families than single people. We see people dumping there dogs for the famous reason of we had a baby and don't have time for the dog. I am sure the dog will be happier in a cage or being pts then a little less attention. I hope they don't have a second child since they could not handle a dog and child.
Humans have created these problems not the animals. But they pay the price for our stupidity somehow does not seem fair.
But you are only adding to the problem by buying a dog from a byb. You did not go to a reputable breeder or a shelter or rescue. Your so called breeder had back to back litters and she is selling mutts that you could get at any shelter or rescue which is just adding to the problem by creating a designer breed. Are the Doxies and JRT health tested did they ever think they are breeding 2 dogs that are very opposite in body type and are surely creating more problems. This is not a breeder it is a byb or a mill so I think you are actually a hypocrite. Labradoodles Chipoos all these dogs are not breeds they are mutts and there is nothing wrong with mutts I have owned my share of them but don't try and tell me they are a new breed and charge me a $1000.00. People are gullible I bet you paid a lot more than what you could have paid at a shelter or rescue where you would have saved a life instead of contributing to the problem

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 06:53 AM
Wow has this gotten off topic.

Name, I am assuming you didn't like the debate you started and have moved on :shrug:?

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 12:00 PM
Wouldn't waste my time on this thread again, apparently the OP went to other forums to start the same topic, then disappeared once things got started :laughing:

BenMax
January 19th, 2011, 12:10 PM
Would waste my time on this thread again, apparently the OP went to other forums to start the same topic, then disappeared once things got started :laughing:

Really? Why would someone do that?:shrug:

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 12:17 PM
Really? Why would someone do that?:shrug:

I don't know, I just don't understand it :(.

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 12:18 PM
Really? Why would someone do that?:shrug:

Just edited my post should have been "wouldn't" not "would" waste my time.

shirley1011
January 19th, 2011, 12:18 PM
It is pretty easy to spot them when they come with their first post stirring up the pot....I'll bet it wasn't their first time here nor will it be their last...a new day a new name :crazy:

But everyone was very civil and held their ground...very good!...who knows maybe we all learned something from it. :2cents: and besides somedays...like a snowed in day it was entertaining if nothing else :clown:

BenMax
January 19th, 2011, 12:22 PM
I don't know, I just don't understand it :(.

Too darn funny. But at the same token, we sure learnt alot here...:frustrated:

rainbow
January 19th, 2011, 12:45 PM
It is pretty easy to spot them when they come with their first post stirring up the pot....I'll bet it wasn't their first time here nor will it be their last...a new day a new name :crazy:


Exactly :thumbs up ....some people really do need to get a life. :rolleyes:

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 01:02 PM
gonna take a page from the other forum that this person created the exact same thread on...as you can see my boys are terribly neglected and unhappy here,,i'm going to go set them free.

Masha
January 19th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Oh no!!!! DOG ABUSE!!! :laughing:

Chris21711
January 19th, 2011, 01:48 PM
But everyone was very civil and held their ground...very good!...

We have to be don'tcha know :cool:

Winston
January 19th, 2011, 02:03 PM
But everyone was very civil and held their ground...very good!...

I agree Shirley! nice to see! :thumbs up

Chris21711
January 19th, 2011, 02:09 PM
But everyone was very civil and held their ground...very good!...

I agree Shirley! nice to see! :thumbs up

We really don't have much option Winston.....not if we want to remain a member of pets.ca.

It is getting tougher every day for one to speak one's mind.

Winston
January 19th, 2011, 02:10 PM
:shrug:

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 02:50 PM
gonna take a page from the other forum that this person created the exact same thread on...as you can see my boys are terribly neglected and unhappy here,,i'm going to go set them free.

:eek::eek: OMG, that was very brave to post those pics :eek:, somebody could call OSPCA and report abuse :yell: :laughing:

hedgiemama
January 19th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Aslan!! are you serious, those poor neglected, uncared for dogs...you better let them go or ill be placing a phone call!
okay, so i want you to let them go so i can snatch them up, but we'll keep that on the DL

Rgeurts
January 19th, 2011, 03:28 PM
We really don't have much option Winston.....not if we want to remain a member of pets.ca.

It is getting tougher every day for one to speak one's mind.

Which is the ONLY reason I have not posted... until now! I find it hard to be polite sometimes, so I say nothing :D
That other forum thread was hillarious!

Chris21711
January 19th, 2011, 03:42 PM
When a thread as contentious as this is opened by a troll or an ignorant on a forum such as this, it is a certainty that feathers are gonna be really ruffled....Heated posts by members get deleted and the troll/ignorant carries on in their glory causing dissent. Then as quickly as they came, they go, leaving a mess to be cleaned up.

We know aggravation is going to happen right from the get-go.....IMO it should be deleted before it even starts to develop, thereby taking the voice of instigator away before they can get their jollies.

Chris21711
January 19th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Which is the ONLY reason I have not posted... until now! I find it hard to be polite sometimes, so I say nothing :D
That other forum thread was hillarious!

You must have seen the movie "Bambi" Rguerts where Thumper's mother says to Thumper "Thumper, if you don't have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all".......for the most part I try, but sometimes I start to choke and just have to spit it out :o

14+kitties
January 19th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Well, now that the kerfluffle is over isn't it interesting that in the two days it has been open it has garnered 1220 views - so far. Controversy doesn't draw crowds? And yet no one got seriously ticked (that we could tell anyway), no one got edited except by themselves, and, if I remember correctly, only one person's post got deleted - the OPs. I would also like to point out that the "normal" run of the mill thread that has been opened for two days has drawn how many views? Just sayin'.

Now, for this statement - and I fully expect now the thread may get a little hot. Please know I am writing it not in anger but in deep sadness.

If you think people are going to think YOU cold or a cynic, wait til you have to hear what I have to say next - I think there are a lot of bleeding hearts on this board who are wonderfully empathetic, but seriously - Rainbow Bridge?!!??? It's an animal people! It lives a short life - it dies. Get over it.

I am a bleeding heart. And I am damned proud of it. I have to be. I need to know that my pets and I will be reunited at the end of this life. I have cared for many. I hope to care for many more. I have had to have a couple of very much loved pets put down in the last year and a half. One because she was a feral I could not get into my sanctuary before she got hit by a car. Another because he was very sick with liver issues and could not survive. He was only three. I then lost a six month old very unexpectedly when she was having her spay surgery. She didn't wake up. They weren't even going to give me back her body for burial. As I write this the tears are streaming for all of them. I miss them dreadfully.
I am also facing the impending death of both of my dogs. They are getting older - 13 and 16. I know soon I will have to make that decision. I dread the day.
How dare you tell me I should "get over it". How dare you.
I want to think of my pets going to a better place. What is wrong with that? You come to a pet forum where many many people have spent thousands to try to keep their pets alive and make that statement. Did you think of the people on the receiving end at all? Or did you think it would just be fluffed over? I feel for your pets. I have a feeling when they get sick they will be let go quickly, without thought. Will you pass that on to someone uncaring or will you go and hold your pet as it breathes its' last? I think the former.
Please stick around. I beg of you. Get to know some of us bleeding hearts. You will be amazed and surprised by the love and caring that goes into these pets who will never have to worry about being chosen over a child. I btw would not chose. I would take both.

I will leave you with a story. You can believe or not. Your pragmatic heart will probably chose not.

About three years ago I was visiting my mother. We were talking and the subject got on the "have a penny, pass it on" story. I told her I much preferred the other story about pennies. She asked which one that was. I told her that if you find a penny on your wanders it means someone you love who has passed on is thinking of you. The penny is their way of letting you know. She, being a religious soul, thought that was a wonderful story.
Six months later I lost her. Mom had battled cancer for ten years. It finally won. The day after we buried her ashes I was going to feed my Catuary cats after a particularly damp night. I had at that time one feral cat who still was allowed to run free. She greeted me every morning by running in a straight beeline toward me. That morning she started coming to me as always across a driveway. She then did something unusual. She veered off and sat and waited for me to come to her. As I bent down to pick her up I noticed under her a bright shiny penny. I looked up and said Thank you Mom.
It is my firm belief my mom was letting me know she was ok. I believe if there is a better place for us to go after our time here is done how could there not be a place for our loving companions. They have lived a life doing nothing but loving the person who loves them. They deserve such a place too.

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 04:28 PM
all i have to say to that 14+ is

mastifflover
January 19th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Well I have contacted every agency I could think of to save those poor dogs, they look so sad and the abuse letting them sleep on a comfy sofa. You cruel person. And your punishment Clark is moving in :laughing::laughing:

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Well, now that the kerfluffle is over isn't it interesting that in the two days it has been open it has garnered 1220 views - so far. Controversy doesn't draw crowds? And yet no one got seriously ticked (that we could tell anyway), no one got edited except by themselves, and, if I remember correctly, only one person's post got deleted - the OPs. I would also like to point out that the "normal" run of the mill thread that has been opened for two days has drawn how many views? Just sayin'.
Of course it draw crowds, that's how newspapers get sold and some TV shows become so popular.

.

Great post, 14+,

Viola-if you think humans are in someway superior to animals, it would only be in brain capacity. When it comes to compassion and unconditional love, animals will outshine most humans.

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 04:55 PM
Well I have contacted every agency I could think of to save those poor dogs, they look so sad and the abuse letting them sleep on a comfy sofa. You cruel person. And your punishment Clark is moving in :laughing::laughing:

Thank you, mastifflover, you are only doing those poor dogs a favour :thumbs up :grouphug: :laughing:

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 04:56 PM
When a thread as contentious as this is opened by a troll or an ignorant on a forum such as this, it is a certainty that feathers are gonna be really ruffled....Heated posts by members get deleted and the troll/ignorant carries on in their glory causing dissent. Then as quickly as they came, they go, leaving a mess to be cleaned up.
That's cause I have a brain disorder. I can't control not saying/writing everything that comes into my head :o, :p


We know aggravation is going to happen right from the get-go.....IMO it should be deleted before it even starts to develop, thereby taking the voice of instigator away before they can get their jollies.

That would be a good idea :thumbs up

Rgeurts
January 19th, 2011, 05:00 PM
You must have seen the movie "Bambi" Rguerts where Thumper's mother says to Thumper "Thumper, if you don't have nothing nice to say, then don't say it at all".......for the most part I try, but sometimes I start to choke and just have to spit it out :o

Chris... you and I both!! My parents did teach me to have manners, and respect. But I find it SO hard to just sit back and watch sometimes. :yell: :frustrated:

Well, now that the kerfluffle is over isn't it interesting that in the two days it has been open it has garnered 1220 views - so far. Controversy doesn't draw crowds? And yet no one got seriously ticked (that we could tell anyway), no one got edited except by themselves, and, if I remember correctly, only one person's post got deleted - the OPs. I would also like to point out that the "normal" run of the mill thread that has been opened for two days has drawn how many views? Just sayin'.

Now, for this statement - and I fully expect now the thread may get a little hot. Please know I am writing it not in anger but in deep sadness.



I am a bleeding heart. And I am damned proud of it. I have to be. I need to know that my pets and I will be reunited at the end of this life. I have cared for many. I hope to care for many more. I have had to have a couple of very much loved pets put down in the last year and a half. One because she was a feral I could not get into my sanctuary before she got hit by a car. Another because he was very sick with liver issues and could not survive. He was only three. I then lost a six month old very unexpectedly when she was having her spay surgery. She didn't wake up. They weren't even going to give me back her body for burial. As I write this the tears are streaming for all of them. I miss them dreadfully.
I am also facing the impending death of both of my dogs. They are getting older - 13 and 16. I know soon I will have to make that decision. I dread the day.
How dare you tell me I should "get over it". How dare you.
I want to think of my pets going to a better place. What is wrong with that? You come to a pet forum where many many people have spent thousands to try to keep their pets alive and make that statement. Did you think of the people on the receiving end at all? Or did you think it would just be fluffed over? I feel for your pets. I have a feeling when they get sick they will be let go quickly, without thought. Will you pass that on to someone uncaring or will you go and hold your pet as it breathes its' last? I think the former.
Please stick around. I beg of you. Get to know some of us bleeding hearts. You will be amazed and surprised by the love and caring that goes into these pets who will never have to worry about being chosen over a child. I btw would not chose. I would take both.

I will leave you with a story. You can believe or not. Your pragmatic heart will probably chose not.

About three years ago I was visiting my mother. We were talking and the subject got on the "have a penny, pass it on" story. I told her I much preferred the other story about pennies. She asked which one that was. I told her that if you find a penny on your wanders it means someone you love who has passed on is thinking of you. The penny is their way of letting you know. She, being a religious soul, thought that was a wonderful story.
Six months later I lost her. Mom had battled cancer for ten years. It finally won. The day after we buried her ashes I was going to feed my Catuary cats after a particularly damp night. I had at that time one feral cat who still was allowed to run free. She greeted me every morning by running in a straight beeline toward me. That morning she started coming to me as always across a driveway. She then did something unusual. She veered off and sat and waited for me to come to her. As I bent down to pick her up I noticed under her a bright shiny penny. I looked up and said Thank you Mom.
It is my firm belief my mom was letting me know she was ok. I believe if there is a better place for us to go after our time here is done how could there not be a place for our loving companions. They have lived a life doing nothing but loving the person who loves them. They deserve such a place too.


:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:
What a beautiful story 14+. That actually gave me goosebumps and brought tears to my eyes. As one who lost her mother (and best friend), I truly appreciate you sharing that :cry: :)
Wow... I look a little manic haha!! Happy face and tears! But I'm really not :o:p

all i have to say to that 14+ is

I couldn't agree more Aslan!!

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 05:01 PM
i know i must be punished Mastifflover but is it really fair to inflict this kind of abuse on poor clark..

Love4 go stay with Lp for a few days,,she can teach you how to not type what you're thinking.

Rgeurts
January 19th, 2011, 05:02 PM
That would be a good idea :thumbs up

Yup, very good idea!! :thumbs up

Love4himies
January 19th, 2011, 05:04 PM
i know i must be punished Mastifflover but is it really fair to inflict this kind of abuse on poor clark..
Wasn't it your job to call OSPCA on her??? :laughing:


Love4 go stay with Lp for a few days,,she can teach you how to not type what you're thinking.

Please noooooooooo :yell:, that is a fate worse than death :yell: :laughing: sorry LP :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 05:10 PM
oh i have to come totally clean,,it gets worse,,we inflict affection on them too..

14+kitties
January 19th, 2011, 05:39 PM
all i have to say to that 14+ is

Great post, 14+,

Viola-if you think humans are in someway superior to animals, it would only be in brain capacity. When it comes to compassion and unconditional love, animals will outshine most humans.


:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:
[B]What a beautiful story 14+. That actually gave me goosebumps and brought tears to my eyes. As one who lost her mother (and best friend), I truly appreciate you sharing that :cry: :)
Wow... I look a little manic haha!! Happy face and tears! But I'm really not :o:p



I couldn't agree more Aslan!!

Thank you ladies. We have suffered a ton of losses on Pets in the last year. To have those losses negated as they were just could not go without some kind of an answer. I am not particularly religious either. Just feel the way I feel. :shrug:
Rgeurts - thanks. I have told that story a few times on Pets. I wear the penny on a chain around my neck every day. It helps keeps my mom close. :cloud9:

mastifflover
January 19th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by aslan
i know i must be punished Mastifflover but is it really fair to inflict this kind of abuse on poor clark..

I hate to tell you this but Clark is used to the kind of abuse you inflict on your poor dogs but the actual victim here is you. :evil::laughing::laughing:
Grace will be abused by having her face constantly exfoliated.

aslan
January 19th, 2011, 06:35 PM
aha,,so you admit that you too abuse your dog. Teehee i gotta say i wish we could have gotten clark's addiction to Grace on video.

mastifflover
January 19th, 2011, 06:45 PM
That would have been funny especially when he slipped her the tongue

BenMax
January 20th, 2011, 06:41 AM
14+K - thank you so much for your post.:grouphug:. This makes my beliefs even stronger. I am also a bleeding heart as I pray every day for those that stand very little chance. I am also burdeoned EVERY DARN DAY with looking into the eyes I cannot help. Whether it is because I cannot find a rescue to help, or that the animal's behaviour is so destructive (due to neglectful, abusive previous 'owners') that my hands are completely tied. All I can do is say that I am so sorry.:( Sadly I say it alot. The guilt is tremendous. The eyes will haunt me forever until I am laid to rest...and I wonder if I ever will.

I worked in a shelter about 15 years ago. At times, my 'job' was to select those to be euthanized that day if the other person in charge broke down. And she did often as the burdeon and guilt is overwhelming. I assisted in hunderds of euthanasias...I watched animals day in day out take their last breath. I was brave in front of everyone...because I had to be, but I cannot tell you how many times I would exit quickly and cry and cry. Thinking about it as I write...I am crying now. Will I ever forgive myself for this...never...but I know that there was no other way out. Eventually I could no longer do it. I could no longer carry this with me. At that time (15 years ago), there was far less help to relieve us of this tragic life of playing God. So over the years I have seen progress and collaboration from others to save our animals. This however is still a huge problem in placing unwanted furbabes and our fight continues.

Bleeding heart - you bet. It will bleed for as long as I walk this planet.

Love4himies
January 20th, 2011, 06:53 AM
14+K - thank you so much for your post.:grouphug:. This makes my beliefs even stronger. I am also a bleeding heart as I pray every day for those that stand very little chance. I am also burdeoned EVERY DARN DAY with looking into the eyes I cannot help. Whether it is because I cannot find a rescue to help, or that the animal's behaviour is so destructive (due to neglectful, abusive previous 'owners') that my hands are completely tied. All I can do is say that I am so sorry.:( Sadly I say it alot. The guilt is tremendous. The eyes will haunt me forever until I am laid to rest...and I wonder if I ever will.

I worked in a shelter about 15 years ago. At times, my 'job' was to select those to be euthanized that day if the other person in charge broke down. And she did often as the burdeon and guilt is overwhelming. I assisted in hunderds of euthanasias...I watched animals day in day out take their last breath. I was brave in front of everyone...because I had to be, but I cannot tell you how many times I would exit quickly and cry and cry. Thinking about it as I write...I am crying now. Will I ever forgive myself for this...never...but I know that there was no other way out. Eventually I could no longer do it. I could no longer carry this with me. At that time (15 years ago), there was far less help to relieve us of this tragic life of playing God. So over the years I have seen progress and collaboration from others to save our animals. This however is still a huge problem in placing unwanted furbabes and our fight continues.

Bleeding heart - you bet. It will bleed for as long as I walk this planet.
:cry::cry: I didn't know this, BenMax. :grouphug::grouphug:

BenMax
January 20th, 2011, 07:00 AM
:cry::cry: I didn't know this, BenMax. :grouphug::grouphug:

It is something that has taken me years to share and talk about. It is due to terrible guilt and also a reluctance to accept. No matter how I try to 'accept' that there was no alternative, I am still struggling with it after all these years. It was this 'experience' that drove me harder to try and make changes and stick my nose EVERYWHERE to find answers. I will never give up this quest, I will always find some door to knock on, I will always try to do better. I am never going to forget what I did nor saw. It is something that shelter workers must live with everyday. I know of so many that burned out, and could no longer have internal struggle, and eventually fell into depression. Yes...all bleeding hearts I suppose..and DARN proud to bleed I may add.

BenMax
January 20th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Maybe growing up in a family with butchers, hunters and farmers has made me a pragmatist.

No - it made you cold. Really, take the time to watch the interactions between animals whether that be domestic or wild. You will see a very 'disturbing' correlation with us humans.

marko
January 20th, 2011, 08:53 AM
This thread was heated and most posts were okay so no deleteions :highfive:

We really don't have much option Winston.....not if we want to remain a member of pets.ca.

It is getting tougher every day for one to speak one's mind.

Most often things that get edited/deleted are rudeness issues. and usually it's a small group of regular members not trolls that spark these issues. Trolls exist, but they are subtle. They may post provocative threads but they rarely break rules by being impolite or rude, only some of our regular members do that. The members that do this DO have big hearts but they make our forum harder to run. They make dealing with trolls harder, they make our forum more unfriendly.

EVERYONE can speak their mind if they do it in a nice way. If members cannot post in a polite way, (read doesn't have to be preacher polite just not so rude that mods or I will delete it; by now almost every member should know where that line is) then yes it will get tougher to speak your mind around here.

I hate playing bad cop but every member has FULL control over their fingers and every member can choose to ignore a troll,put any member on ignore list, or at least choose to respond in a decent way....or at least send me a PM.

I'm the admin here, I posted in this thread because I thought it was real.

When a thread as contentious as this is opened by a troll or an ignorant on a forum such as this, it is a certainty that feathers are gonna be really ruffled....Heated posts by members get deleted and the troll/ignorant carries on in their glory causing dissent. Then as quickly as they came, they go, leaving a mess to be cleaned up.

We know aggravation is going to happen right from the get-go.....IMO it should be deleted before it even starts to develop, thereby taking the voice of instigator away before they can get their jollies.

That would be a good idea :thumbs up

OR nobody responds and the troll goes to play in ANOTHER sandbox all by themselves.

If mods and I had the power we'd all be very very rich. We can't know for sure who is legit. It took pages until it was discovers that this person does seem to be trolling.

Heated posts almost NEVER get deleted. Rude posts get deleted, people posting how poorly the forum is run get deleted. People bashing other members get deleted. A little bit of heat, NEVER.

I took a look at that other post on that other forum, and the last several pages of the thread are useless.

Round here, Admins and mods want our forum to be friendlier. Feel free to speak your mind in a friendly way. Or if you want to gossip/badmouth about a member...feel free to do so using the PM system please.

I truly love our forum, and the caring generous people that make up our forum. The first hand help is amazing, and people are constantly learning from old threads.

Maybe I'm too soft, too Canadian too whatever....but my goal for this forum is increased friendliness. I don't want any member to leave but i want every member to be aware of this goal.

and we HAVE been making good strides overall - so thanks in advance. I just wanted to address some posts in this thread.

Please any member can feel free to PM me about this post but please do not post about in the open forums.

Thanks in advance,

Marko
ADMIN

This thread has run its course and will now be closed. As always if any member wants me to add to this thread, please just PM me.