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Sasha, Buddy and Me

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 05:43 PM
OMD:cry::(, please help me all of you gurus..The honeymoon is over and Buddy and Sasha are fighting all the time. Teeth gnashing and growling and barking at each other. I am trying to give each of them time outs where they will go to have a rest and also some time with me but when they are together they fight. I am so afraid that Sasha will really hurt the puppy because she is so much bigger.

Buddy wants to be the boss and I am not doing a very good job of teaching him that noooo I am the boss.

Anyone that can help me get through the next couple of months with 2 healthy dogs please PM me with some helppppp... I am really upset:cry: and do not know what to do. I cannot keep them apart forever. patti

luckypenny
November 19th, 2010, 06:04 PM
Patti, is there any way you can video this behavior? You're 100% sure it's fighting and not play fighting? Even in play, it can look pretty rough with growling, nipping, barking, etc.. How old is the puppy again?

Love4himies
November 19th, 2010, 06:09 PM
I hope it is just play :pray::pray:. I know when Jasper and Sweet Pea are playing, they are so rough and they hiss, but it's really just play. :goodvibes::goodvibes:

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 06:13 PM
LP and L4 thanks for repying.. they do the play fighting but they also do the mean and nasty worrisome type of fighting. I can try to video and put it on you tube so maybe you can help me out..patti

Rgeurts
November 19th, 2010, 06:13 PM
What I thought was aggression from Thorin is just a very rough play. He looks (and sounds) like he would really hurt Nookie, but he doesn't. I sure hope it's just very rough play Patti :fingerscr

I love the name! Buddy fits him :lovestruck:

luckypenny
November 19th, 2010, 06:19 PM
A video would be extremely helpful. Patti, from your perspective, what is the difference between when you say "play fighting" and "mean and nasty worrisome type of fighting?"

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 06:56 PM
I am trying to download then upload some video to you tube, I will let you know when I have it done. hopefully you great folk can help me out. patti

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 07:26 PM
This does not show them really fighting but it escalates from this to the nasty stuff. patti


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzRnvqk37VA

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 07:30 PM
A video would be extremely helpful. Patti, from your perspective, what is the difference between when you say "play fighting"
I can move around them, they are not gnashing their teeth... and "mean and nasty worrisome type of fighting?" I am afraid to get between them for fear they will bite me



see above....patti

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 07:34 PM
Maybe Sasha is a one person dog? When I was trying to raise the puppy for Dogs With Wings in Edmonton she did the same thing. i was fearful for the health of that puppy and had to have the group take Sable back. It feels like I am failing both of these dogs..trying to adopt a puppy and a friend for Sasha and things turning out badly. patti

luckypenny
November 19th, 2010, 08:09 PM
It would seem that Sasha's not too comfortable in that video. Was she trying to leave the kitchen? Would she have been able to if she wanted? Does this normally happen in the kitchen and other small places or just about everywhere including the yard?

Buddy is acting like most obnoxious puppies do but his attention should be re-directed when you see Sasha is not getting her message across. It sorta looks like she's unsure of herself and afraid to correct him? I could see that she looks to you and I'm wondering if she's waiting for you to help her or to give her some direction. In that case, all you have to do is place your body between them before it escalates and direct Buddy's attention elsewhere (you can always attach a short line that doesn't drag to Buddy's collar). Praise him when he's focused on something other than Sasha so he understands what it is he should be doing. And keep them separated when it's obvious Sasha needs a break. Can you use baby gates? Does Buddy have a crate?

Are your days pretty structured? Do you follow a schedule of playtime/exercise/rest, etc? And how much exercise, other than playing, do Sasha and Buddy get?

Did the ppl at the shelter, or a vet, have an idea as to Buddy's age? How long have you had him now? And when did this start?

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 09:09 PM
LP thanks, I will try to answer your ??

1) Buddy is approx 5 mths and has been with us for 1 week only
2) no crate but he has the back landing, it is gated from the kitchen and from the basement stairs
3) I live in a small home, there is a gate also from kitchen to the rest of the house. Sasha has pretty much the the whole house except when I am having 1 on 1 in the kitchen with Buddy then she cannot come in the kitchen. When Buddy is having his naps Sasha and me have 1 on 1
4) I live in my kitchen, spending very little time in the LR, the LR is not puppy proofed
5) we have a couple of walks a day, the 3 of us, since it has become colder we do not go far. 20 min or so. up to 45 min.

Becasue he is highly excitable I try not to make lots of fast moves and "puppy noises" and just try to play with him with chew toys and balls. having him fetch and bring back to me.

The nasty fighting started yesterday, up until that time Sasha was not able to discpline him so I decided time to step in and help??? is this where I went wrong? Should I let them fight it out?

If I did not get all your ?'s please ask again and give any guidance you can.

patti

luckypenny
November 19th, 2010, 09:48 PM
First of all, don't panic, ok? This is pretty usual with an adolescent pup who's overwhelming an adult in the home. Just have to figure out a way to address it that will work for you.

In that particular video, were you all closed into the kitchen? Did Sasha have a way out? Is it possible for you to puppy proof the living room so there's more space for everyone to maneuver?

The very first thing I'd do is set up a schedule where you can all walk at least 30 minutes in the morning followed by a good 30 minute session of games like fetch and other fun training activities with Buddy alone (can you play in your yard where there's likely more room for him to run?). I would only then let him and Sasha have a few minutes together as long as he's calm. He can then have his breakfast out of stuffed Kongs in his area followed by a couple of hours of nap/quiet time. I'd repeat this in the afternoon and evening as well. The trick would be to have him and Sasha together only when he's tuckered out so he doesn't have a chance to overwhelm her and she gets a chance to get used to him slowly. It's kinda rough having a crazy puppy throwing himself at you suddenly...not just for dogs but for humans too :D.

What do you mean by "up until that time Sasha was not able to discpline him"? I think if she needs to, she will. Having said that though, the busier he's kept, and the more tired and relaxed he is, the less likely she'll need to. I think that should be your focus rather than having to step in to do any disciplining.

When you have your one on one time with each of them, you can work on a few simple cues like sits, stays, downs, but most importantly, recalls. Once they both know them perfectly, you can start to train them together as well. This will prove invaluable when you need to get them to refocus on you when you think things may start to get out of hand.

Marty11
November 19th, 2010, 09:54 PM
Hi patti, no I'm not an experienced dog trainer but this very same thing happened to me. I brought my boston terrier home and about a week later my manchester hated her. I was crying on the floor one day thinking he was going to kill her. My dog trainer gave me tips. We worked it out and they are inseparable now. I had to be the older dogs boss and put him under me first of all. He dragged a leash around the house so I could grab him at any moment in case i needed to. They spent time apart. I have to think back, give me some time it will come to me. One thing we did a lot of leash walking, dogs will form a bond as a pack. We would sit on the couch and cuddle and he would push into me as if to say he was in charge and snap at her, I would kinda hiss at him and push him back in his space. He was alowed on the couch but on my terms. Puppies need to learn as well, they push a lot of buttons and she needs to teach him some of the ropes. How old is sasha? I will now watch your video, and come back on later.

Marty11
November 19th, 2010, 10:03 PM
I agree with luckypenny! Could Sasha leave the kitchen if she wanted too? One thing I discovered, not leaving toys around so the dogs couldn't get possesive of them. I still cannot leave out stuffed toys, plastic ones are ok. Manchester has high prey drive. Sasha has her right to put puppy into place. I don't feel that it's sooo bad right now. Give them time and time apart, I think it will be ok. Terrier breeds are stubborn, bossy, fun, but a lot of work. I'm pretty sure Buddy is terrier and aproaching the challenging months.

pbpatti
November 19th, 2010, 10:16 PM
PANIC!!!! LP,I already did that :crazy: now I am trying to be calm and get my head back and start at the beginning...I think that I should get a smallish crate for Buddy so that I do not have to close the gates all the time.

I usually feed the dogs first thing in the morning should I change this? Sasha has always had breakie first thing and after her breakie she goes back to bed:sleepy: lucky girl....later in the AM (tenish) is when we go for walks.

It is starting to get rather cold here now so it is harder to play/walk for any length of time outdoors. Buddy loves to be outside though so maybe we can work/play for 10 min or so at a time. It will be hard to do the play thing alone with Buddy without Sasha barking and going crazy at us.

Buddy is a very smart puppy so doing any type of obedience training with him should be fun just need the space....

Thank you so much LP for your response.

Marty, Sasha is 6 yr old and still acts like a puppy, it is just her and me in the house or it was until I brought this he devil home. :D, I am confident that they will learn to get along they just need time.

I do not use my LR, I "live" in my kitchen, cook, play, computer, watch television....thanks for your advise. patti

Marty11
November 19th, 2010, 10:28 PM
Yes I would crate Buddy. Marty was living in a playpen so she did not have run of the place. Sasha needs to be the one in charge even though Buddy is trying to get there. She is a smart lab by the way and her gentle personality should kick in.

luckypenny
November 20th, 2010, 12:42 AM
PANIC!!!! LP,I already did that :crazy: now I am trying to be calm and get my head back and start at the beginning...I think that I should get a smallish crate for Buddy so that I do not have to close the gates all the time.

That might be a better option if it means Sasha has more room to move about without getting harassed :D. Just remember to never use it as a punishment.

I usually feed the dogs first thing in the morning should I change this? Sasha has always had breakie first thing and after her breakie she goes back to bed:sleepy: lucky girl....later in the AM (tenish) is when we go for walks.

That would be up to you if you want to change your schedule. Our guys are super energized in the morning so I find that if I exercise them hard early, then feed them their breakfasts (usually out of Kongs in their crates), they rest well right up until mid-afternoon.

It is starting to get rather cold here now so it is harder to play/walk for any length of time outdoors. Buddy loves to be outside though so maybe we can work/play for 10 min or so at a time. It will be hard to do the play thing alone with Buddy without Sasha barking and going crazy at us.

Find an old ski suit somewhere and invest in a pair of ugly yet warm pair of boots and that should help you tolerate the cold weather longer :D. You can take both of them out to play at the same time but keep one on a leash while you get the other to engage in a game of fetch and retrieve or, once the snow gets deep, have them dig out favorite toys or treats you've buried. Then just switch them up every few minutes. Eventually, they could both learn their 'stays' so you won't have to have either leashed.

pbpatti
November 20th, 2010, 11:14 AM
Sasha likes to go back to bed...I like to read the morning paper..Buddy has vim and vinegar, he wants to go,go,go. I took both of them for a walk this morn after breakfast and let Sasha go back to bed, Buddy and I played fetch for awhile now I have him back in his "place" back landing for a rest...I guess this will just take time won't it? Thank you all for your advise, I need it. patti

mona_b
November 20th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I know you say you more or less live in the kitchen and don't really spend time in the LR. Is there anyway you can start going into the LR? I know you say you haven't puppy proofed it, but can you? Or just do some serious supervision. This can also help with Buddys training. You know like the "leave it" command. If you don't start teaching him now, it will be harder in the long run. And wouldn't it be nice if there was no gate period and you can sit in the kitchen and they are crashed in the LR?.:)

It's great that they are playing, but if it gets to rough, then you just need to end it. Or give them the "enough" command. Let Sasha out of the kitchen so she can have the break. They need to learn when enough is enough.

When I was raising 2 pups, they started the heavy horseplay at around 8 months. I let them know when it was enough. I ended it. Picture 2 GSD's horseplaying. LOL. It was funny cause they started ending it themselves.

pbpatti
November 20th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Mona thanks, I pm'd you...patti

breeze
November 20th, 2010, 04:39 PM
how's it going today patti??

:goodvibes::goodvibes:

pbpatti
November 20th, 2010, 06:32 PM
Hi Breeze, things are better today, I did a little picking up in the LR and the 3 of us spent a short while there. I am so impressed with Buddy he really is a smart cookie. I am letting him and Sasha work things out and it is much better. When i was getting in between it just made them worse. I have also decided that I will get a crate for Buddy to rest in that way Sasha will still be able to come and go and he will be safe. Thanks for your help. patti

Love4himies
November 20th, 2010, 07:05 PM
Oh pbpatti, I hope it was only a "hierarchy trial" by your new puppy and he now will settle down and let Sasha be the boss as she should be :pray:

breeze
November 20th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Hi Breeze, things are better today, I did a little picking up in the LR and the 3 of us spent a short while there. I am so impressed with Buddy he really is a smart cookie. I am letting him and Sasha work things out and it is much better. When i was getting in between it just made them worse. I have also decided that I will get a crate for Buddy to rest in that way Sasha will still be able to come and go and he will be safe. Thanks for your help. patti

:thumbs up:thumbs up

:goodvibes::goodvibes:

TeriM
November 20th, 2010, 11:58 PM
Good advice from LP :thumbs up. Sounds like the little monster is just feeling out things and figuring out the rules of the house. I imagine he is likely especially obnoxious after being cooped up at a shelter.

Good luck :goodvibes:.

growler~GateKeeper
November 21st, 2010, 02:56 AM
I realise it may just be the small confines of the space, but one thing that stands out for me, watching that video, is that Buddy is almost always standing between you & Sasha especially during the barking.

When the 3 of you are together is he always standing/moving to be between you & Sasha? If you are petting/paying attention to Sasha does Buddy nudge his way in the middle?

mona_b
November 21st, 2010, 10:25 PM
Things will work out. One day at a time. :thumbs up

Tundra_Queen
November 22nd, 2010, 03:30 AM
patti,,, I'm no dog expert, but when I watched that video the only thing that I noticed was that it seemed like Sasha was trying to get away from Buddy and seemed like she had no where to go. Was the gate to the LR up at the time and is Sasha allowed into the LR?

aslan
November 22nd, 2010, 09:07 AM
Patti,,Lp is giving you great advice and yup it's gonna take a little time. The unfortunate part of adopting from a rescue/shelter etc is we don't know anything about the puppers background. We don't know what type of sociallization he's had so he just needs to learn some manners. I watched the video a few times and agree with Lp that Sasha looks uncomfortable or unsure of herself. I also noticed that Buddy at one point has his tail pretty erect which is a dominance show. Does buddy pee ontop of Sasha's pee,,does he flick the earth with his back feet once he's done his business? Growler may be onto something about buddy keeping himself between you and Sasha.

Sorry L4 but i have to disagree with a comment you made. Just because in our eyes pupper 1 was here first doesn't mean they are or are meant to be the higher up in the ranks.

Patti main thing i'm going to suggest is to correct the barking. When buddy starts getting in Sasha's face and constantly barking at her,stop him. give him a little jab in the side to break his concentration,,or keep his leash on him at all time to remove him quickly if you have to..Keep up the good work it is totally workable.

pbpatti
November 22nd, 2010, 11:27 AM
We made it through the weekend with all fingers, toes and paws intact. :) the puppers are doing much better thank you all of you for your excellent advise. I picked up a crate yesterday for Buddy and I am getting him slowly used to it. He slept in it last night and had no trouble. I will put him in it off and on today for rest breaks and see how he does.

Since I stepped away and just supervised, the two are doing much better. Sasha is more confident and Buddy is listening more to her and her body language.

aslan, he does not pee on top of Sasha's pee, and yes I am trying to stop him from barking and being so vocal when they play.

I will keep you all posted on how things are going. patti

Dog Dancer
November 22nd, 2010, 03:54 PM
Patti, I think with all the good advice you've gotten so far you'll be on top of this in no time. Buddy will learn and Sasha will step up to the plate when she figures out the little pest isn't going away. She's probably just being polite!