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Excessive Breeding - a question of ethics

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 09:58 AM
Another thread is really bothering me today. Rather than taking away from the main questions in it I thought to start this thread. Yes, I know we've been over and over it. Seems like we still have a lot of educating to do. :( With literally millions of dogs and cats being killed every year in shelters because there are no homes for them I find this devastating. And yes, I myself have had my eyes opened clearer in the last while. Not about breeding but the frequency of breeding. Thank you to the people who pointed me in the right direction. :thumbs up


So - how often is too often?
Taken from -
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html

Frequency of Breeding

Ideally, a bitch should only be bred every other year and she should not be bred much before two years of age. The season closest to the second birthday is a good one to start with; certainly no earlier than this. In some breeds, you may need to wait one more season before beginning. By this time, she is better prepared mentally for having puppies than she would have been with her first few seasons. Her physical growth is complete and pregnancy at this point won't endanger her health, provided that she is healthy to begin with.
In breeds with Hip Dysplasia, many people wait until after two years of age so that the parents can be certified; however if you have sent in xrays to OFA for preliminary evaluation and they came back as fine, many breeders consider it safe enough to then breed on the season closest to the second year, which can wind up being before the bitch is actually old enough to be certified. (And when the bitch is old enough, she is, of course, duly certified.) But the preliminary xrays must be examined by OFA, not by a local veterinarian. There are many dysplastic dogs out there that had vets look at their xrays and pronounce them "wonderful."

It's important, however, to keep the frequency of breeding low. Even at maximum, you want to allow at least one unbred season between breedings. This allows your bitch to rest and regain her strength. A bitch that whelps too often will produce weaker puppies more likely to die, and the repeated pregnancies are pretty rough on her, too.

For dogs, they should definitely have all their certifications necessary. For many breeds this means that they should be over two years old. Since a dog can be bred at any time, unlike bitches, waiting for two years is not a problem, whereas a bitch often has a season just before two years of age and then has to wait until 2.5 or three which sometimes presents problems in trying to time her litters. But this does not apply to a stud dog, so he should definitely have all of his checks and certifications before being bred. Frequency is not generally a problem although some dogs have problems with sperm production if they breed once a day for several days. They need top-quality feeding and care if they are going to be bred often.


As for the breeding of mutts - that is still the biggest problem. "Breeders" put two dogs together to create a new "breed" and sell them for tons of money. Problem is they are not breeds. They are mutts. You can go to many shelters, websites, or rescues and find the exact same dog for much much less.

Marty11
November 18th, 2010, 10:26 AM
I have always thought.....why not make breeding illegal unless having a licence from a government. They take money for everything else why not breeding. That could eliminate brb and unecessary mixed breeds...If only breeding could be controlled a lot of problems can be minimized.

shirley1011
November 18th, 2010, 10:45 AM
I think in a way Marty the CKC helps somewhat with the registering of dogs but doesn't go far enough.
I know breeders are at fault in a lot of cases and not researching the lines of the dogs they are breeding. If CKC were to make more rules in this, there would be less breeding. We had to bring in a male from the US as all the lines here in Ontario were connected.
I still believe that enforcing the spay/neutering at the breeder level when pups are sold does help but you have to be pro active and follow up and make sure the dog has been done. Maybe again CKC could hold certification until this proof is given unless you apply for a "show certificate".
But it is mixed breeds that there is absolutely no control over...the dogs just do what dogs do and we just have to keep trying to educate dumb owners to do their part and get their dogs fixed.
Here in Oshawa they are helping with the license...if you can produce a microchip certificate and a spay/neuter certificate it is a one time charge....I think that would help but it is a $$$ money grab for most municipalities...maybe making the fee if your dog strays and isn't neutered would help.
Very frustrating as 14+ has expressed.

Marty11
November 18th, 2010, 10:50 AM
So if you have a microchip and spay/neuter certificate it's a one time dog licence fee, and that also controls if the dog gets lost...good start. We don't have that in the small towns yet. Why are we alowed to breed "mutts" without penalties. I guess it's a hobby.....:(

shirley1011
November 18th, 2010, 10:54 AM
But that is just Oshawa, Whitby right next door is different again..you pay yearly for your tag.
Marty..have no idea how you can stop the mutts...or should I say the owners...it isn't the dog's fault.
It is a cost thing for a lot of people and I think the new spay/neuter clinics are helping but we have a long way to go.

Melinda
November 18th, 2010, 11:18 AM
I know breeders around this area have to claim their earnings (from the sale of pups) on their income tax.

Dog Dancer
November 18th, 2010, 11:31 AM
Claiming earnings from breeding is fine, but it's kinda like prostitution isn't it? Do they think the byb's are going to declare their income? Not likely. As for 14+ question I would have to agree that if I was looking for an ethical breeder I would not want to buy from someone who breeds their bitches more than every two years. Surely breeding more than that has to drain the mother dogs of vital health components that would be passed on to the puppies. In my area of BC you get a cheaper tag fee if your dog is spayed/neutered, but you renew yearly. I also agree that breeders should have to purchase a license. But still the byb's won't go there, and the municipalities don't have the funds to go to every person who puts an ad on Craigs list or in the papers.

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I also agree that breeders should have to purchase a license.

But the poster claimed the "breeder" was registered. :(
There are so many kennel clubs out there. I know there are the top ones. But then every breed has it's own club. Then there's the ones for the "designer breeds" that aren't registered. I would think it would be pretty easy to request a license. In fact I'd be tempted to try it to see what is requested of me to fulfill their requirements. :shrug:

mastifflover
November 18th, 2010, 11:51 AM
When I first decided to get a Mastiff I did some research and spoke to quite a few breeders some so called breeders. But the ethical breeders told me it would be a year or more before I would have a pup because most only breed their bitches once a year. And no guarantee to how many pups are in a litter so it could be earlier but maybe longer. I would need to leave a deposit to be put on the waiting list. All there dogs are on site or can be brought to the kennel for me to see if it is from another breeder. All dogs have health guarantees and must be returned to them no ifs and or buts if you decide to dump your dog. I luckily found Boo and then Buddy in rescue. But if I ever bought a dog I would buy from only 2 of all the breeders I spoke with. If they would start fining byb and mills heavily it might help because they are only concerned with the money they are not doing it because they want to breed healthy well balanced dogs. I agree with licensing as well real breeders would have no problem I am sure they would love to see all the mills and byb gone

Marty11
November 18th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Yes I questioned "registered breeder" too :confused:

shirley1011
November 18th, 2010, 11:55 AM
14+ ...I have to agree getting a membership with CKC is pretty easy but I think they have to tighten the restrictions when it comes to registering...they make no check of the history of the dogs and their relationship...which is why Norwegian Elkhounds are not available in Ontario right now...they are pretty much all related and there are only a few breeders who respect that and aren't breeding.
But when it comes to the designer breeds...there is no limit to the stupidity.
I keep seeing on kijiji people advertising for a male stud...and geesh sometimes they aren't even looking for purebreds with papers. I always respond and ask them if they are nuts but I'm sure it doesn't fizz on them!
Not sure how you educate these idiots.

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 11:56 AM
I guess the correct wording was "licensed" breeder. So is there a difference between licensed and registered? Can you have one and not the other? If you are licensed are you also registered? Are they two different entities?

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 12:03 PM
14+ ...I have to agree getting a membership with CKC is pretty easy but I think they have to tighten the restrictions when it comes to registering...they make no check of the history of the dogs and their relationship...which is why Norwegian Elkhounds are not available in Ontario right now...they are pretty much all related and there are only a few breeders who respect that and aren't breeding.
But when it comes to the designer breeds...there is no limit to the stupidity.
I keep seeing on kijiji people advertising for a male stud...and geesh sometimes they aren't even looking for purebreds with papers. I always respond and ask them if they are nuts but I'm sure it doesn't fizz on them!
Not sure how you educate these idiots.

That's interesting Shirley. I wish a few more breeders would have those ethics. :thumbs up
Kijiji - I hate the fact that they have allow this to go on. They have so many breeders on their forum it's nuts! And not many see anything wrong with breeding as often as they can to make money. :( That is why so many of us feel breeders are in it for the money. It isn't the ethical breeders who gave us that impression. It's the other idiots who I believe are in the majority. They pump out litter after litter after litter. And what work do they actually do to get that litter? It doesn't take a lot to put a male dog in with a female in heat. I wonder if they go home at the end of their day and complain about how hard they've worked?
If places like kijiji, craigs list, etc were not allowed to advertise dogs/cats for sale maybe, just maybe, we could make a dent in this issue. Maybe. :(

mastifflover
November 18th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Craigslist no longer allows free to good home but Kijiji could care less. I have emailed them and they told me they delete these listing which is a pile of steaming sh**. They do not remove them but they will remove someone who posts about what can happen to free to good home. I will not even consider using them for anything they have no ethics

BenMax
November 18th, 2010, 01:03 PM
With all the education out there, there simply is not enough attention paid to it. Seriously, I have nothing to add.:shrug::(

hazelrunpack
November 18th, 2010, 01:14 PM
I guess the correct wording was "licensed" breeder. So is there a difference between licensed and registered? Can you have one and not the other? If you are licensed are you also registered? Are they two different entities?

Not sure what it's like in Canada, but here, anyone can get a breeder's 'license'. All it means is that you have enough dogs that it's cheaper to buy a 'kennel license' instead of licensing your dogs individually. If our dogs were intact, it would be cheaper for us to by a 'kennel license' than to license each dog separately. With neutered dogs, it's cheaper to do it individually--so anyone buying a 'kennel license' in this county is likely a breeder (or has way more dogs than hazel :eek:) and would be licensed.

That doesn't register you as a breeder, however--either with the state or with AKC/FDSB. So a licensed breeder is not the same as a registered breeder. Without registration, you can't get papers for a litter. But I'm not sure how you go about getting registered. I'm sure you need to start with already registered dogs, though, and mixed litters cannot be registered.

Ally&Jakub
November 18th, 2010, 01:18 PM
This is all really interesting. I didn't know how big of a problem this was. It's just so wrong to breed litter after litter for the profit. We have been trying to breed Indica, just once, before we get her fixed. It's not for money, we won't be selling the puppies as we already have them all spoken for by family members and close friends. We just want to spread the love of the breed. Everyone we have met loves Indy and we want to spread the joy of the Boston. I simply can't imagine puttingan animal through multiple pregnancies and litters just for financial gain.

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 01:21 PM
This is all really interesting. I didn't know how big of a problem this was. It's just so wrong to breed litter after litter for the profit. We have been trying to breed Indica, just once, before we get her fixed. It's not for money, we won't be selling the puppies as we already have them all spoken for by family members and close friends. We just want to spread the love of the breed. Everyone we have met loves Indy and we want to spread the joy of the Boston. I simply can't imagine puttingan animal through multiple pregnancies and litters just for financial gain.

Well then you are the perfect person to educate. :thumbs up Please have your girl fixed. She doesn't need to have a litter and if you want to spread the love of the breed please send your family and friends to shelters or rescues. You can also send them to www.petfinder.com . For every puppy your dog would have one more would die in a shelter.

The following is from the same site I originally posted........

I want another dog just like mine!

If you want to breed your dog so as to get another dog like yours, think about this for a moment. No matter how special your dog is to you, a puppy out of it is not guaranteed to be just like or even similar to your dog -- half its genes will be from another dog! You will have to find another dog that also has the characteristics you want in your puppy; that dog will have to be unneutered; and the owner of that dog will have to be willing to breed her/his dog to yours. It is much easier, often less expensive, and certainly less time consuming to pick out an existing dog that you like from the shelter or another breeder. Best yet, go back to the same breeder of your dog, if possible, and pick another puppy out of similar lines.

Ally&Jakub
November 18th, 2010, 01:26 PM
That's a great perspective. I really had no idea how big of a problem this is. I know that there are always animals in shelters that need homes (I got Oliver from a rescue group) and I always encourage people to go there first. My mom wanted a puppy so I sent her to the humane society. She decided to go another way with things, as she had someone local who had puppies in need of homes. Out of the five cats I have had in my life, three have been from either shelters or rescue situations, and one from a local person who would have had to send her to a shelter if we didn't adopt her, and one was found abandoned in a park. I always thought it would be nice for her to have a litter for her own sake, but if it's really not necessary for her, then I suppose we would be doing the animal world a favour.

14+kitties
November 18th, 2010, 01:30 PM
That's a great perspective. I really had no idea how big of a problem this is. I know that there are always animals in shelters that need homes (I got Oliver from a rescue group) and I always encourage people to go there first. My mom wanted a puppy so I sent her to the humane society. She decided to go another way with things, as she had someone local who had puppies in need of homes. Out of the five cats I have had in my life, three have been from either shelters or rescue situations, and one from a local person who would have had to send her to a shelter if we didn't adopt her, and one was found abandoned in a park. I always thought it would be nice for her to have a litter for her own sake, but if it's really not necessary for her, then I suppose we would be doing the animal world a favour.

:grouphug: THANK YOU!!!!! :thumbs up
Here's another thread that was started last year to try to help educate. It gets pretty sluggish after the first page but at least there are tons of sites to further educate. For every person that is educated the problem will get smaller. Thank you again!!

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59820

Ally&Jakub
November 18th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Thank you for enlightening me. I would feel aweful if I were contributing to homeless animals, something I have always been so passionate about. I will check out that website and spread the word...

Love4himies
November 18th, 2010, 02:40 PM
Oh 14+, you know how I feel about breeding and you know I can't keep my mouth shut :o:p, so I have to comment :angel:

I like that idea of breeding only once every two years, can you imagine how many less animals would be born :thumbs up, how many less would end up in shelters :thumbs up and how many less would end up having their lives cut short :thumbs up:thumbs up

But I gotta say I have mixed feelings about only "ethical" breeders breeding, because mutts are wonderful too :lovestruck:. but no breeding until all the homeless animals have found homes :yell:.

k, that's all I am gonna say for now

Melinda
November 18th, 2010, 02:47 PM
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, in Ontario anyways, we had to be licenced and registered, I honestly can't remember who it was , but we had an "agent" come to the kennel 4 times a year to check the dogs, they checked the health, the registration papers, vet papers, and if any passed away then they read and recorded the reasons why/vet papers. now remember, I'm old and it was when I was up to the age of 13.

hazelrunpack
November 18th, 2010, 03:51 PM
L4H, the problem with no breeding till all the homeless animals find homes is that all the purebreds will totally disappear. You can't legislate responsible ownership, so there will be homeless animals forever. Since dogs have a finite life span and can have pups for an even shorter period of time, 10 years from now the shelters will still be full of mixed breeds because of the issue of irresponsible ownership/breeding, but all the purebred dogs will be extinct--or close to it because they'll all be beyond breeding age.

That would be a very sad outcome. :(

Marty11
November 18th, 2010, 03:56 PM
Go to sites like the boston rescue and see how many of those lovely dogs are in shelters :( Do you know that the bigger bull faced dogs have many issues delivering...often leading to c-sections, big vet bills. I hope you forget about breeding just once and just enjoy the great dog you have now. :)

luckypenny
November 18th, 2010, 10:35 PM
Ideally, a bitch should only be bred every other year and she should not be bred much before two years of age. The season closest to the second birthday is a good one to start with; certainly no earlier than this.

A little while ago, I was fortunate enough to be present during a discussion between several breeders and veterinarians. The consensus in that particular group was that, ideally, neither females nor males should be bred before 4 years old as most inherited diseases don't show up before many dogs reach mid-adulthood. As the article suggested, most ppl have their breeding dogs certified by the age of 2 years old, much too soon to tell if they are actually cleared of genetic health issues.

mona_b
November 19th, 2010, 10:53 AM
Good post mf.:thumbs up

We can educate till we are blue in the face. People just don't want to hear it. And that's sad.

There is a difference between "licensed" and "registered". You must get a license if you are over the limit of dogs. Registered means you are registering the kennel name. It's like a trademark. No one can use that name.:)

hazelrunpack
November 19th, 2010, 01:17 PM
We have a registered kennel name (Hazel Run) and our last two rescues were registered as Hazel Run dogs. But we don't breed and we don't get inspections, either--we just registered the name with the FDSB. The feds and the states have regulations if you take it a step further and begin breeding and selling dogs--there are certain standards that have to be met. But even being registered (in the sense that the state and the feds consider them a business dealing in live animals) doesn't mean the holder of the registration knows what they're doing or meets anything more than the very minimum standards set out by law. That's why it's so important to do more background checking and do some on-site visitations to whichever breeding facility is decided upon.

Breeding back-to-back heats is bad practice--it's hard on the dam since she has little time to physically recover between litters. But there are other excesses in breeding that should raise some red flags, too--'line breeding', for instance. If a breeder is breeding 'too close'--in other words, breeding close relatives frequently--that automatically raises a huge red flag in my mind.

14+kitties
November 19th, 2010, 05:06 PM
Good post mf.:thumbs up

Thanks mf! :grouphug:
So yep, licensing and being registered mean exactly what I figured.
I guess there is no answer except trying to educate. Does anyone ever think we will see the day when it will start to pay off?

Bisqueet
November 19th, 2010, 11:50 PM
I agree with 14+ and much of what was said after the OP.

However having a dog again (after a 14yr hiatus) has reintroduced me to the whole culture, I've met so many people walking Biscuit! And I've met many guardians of dogs that were adopted from the shelter or breed specific rescues. There are an amazing amount of wonderful people that foster and/or adopt these dogs. If we ever decide to get a companion for Biscuit that's the route we'll go as well, same as when the time comes for us to have a cat again. It almost seems like these dogs find the ones that should have had them from the beginning, they're all certainly so happy to have found their forever home. My eyes have been opened and these people deserve a special place in heaven. At least I know there's hope.

That said a neighbourhood dog that we've met many times went kind of crazy around Biscuit the last time we saw him and his owner said he'd started when they were down at the other end of the road. Needless to say I kind of felt 'oh sh-t, what if I've waited too long?' She just turned six months and I don't think I did as there weren't any other signs, but her surgery's now booked for this coming Wednesday. No puppies for Biscuit!

Marty11
November 19th, 2010, 11:58 PM
I have to say, after joining this forum I can't wait to adopt a shelter dog. I have two busy bodies right now, but that is the way I will go next time. You guys have totally made me see the light...........:lightbulb:

Love4himies
November 20th, 2010, 05:54 AM
[QUOTE=Bisqueet;967077 It almost seems like these dogs find the ones that should have had them from the beginning, they're all certainly so happy to have found their forever home. My eyes have been opened and these people deserve a special place in heaven. At least I know there's hope.

[/QUOTE]


Oh yes, those pets who have been in homes that have been abusive or neglectful or even those who have been strays so appreciate their new homes and family. They give back ten fold in loyalty and unconditional love to their humans to show their appreciation ;).

mona_b
November 20th, 2010, 10:11 AM
Thanks mf! :grouphug:
Does anyone ever think we will see the day when it will start to pay off?

You are very welcome.:grouphug:

I hope that happens before I leave this world.:)


I know my educating with friends and co workers has paid off. I have a few friends who have/are showing, but have no plans on breeding.

Just wanted to add something. Ethical breeders have contract. A s/n contract and a non-breeding contract. So when someone says they want to breed their dog or they have a pregnant dog, that there tells me they did not get this dog from an ethical breeder. Ethical breeders don't want any Joe Blo continuing their lines. If I went against my neuter contract, I would have been taken to court and fined $5000. That cost was put in the contract. So all my boys were done at 6 months.:)

shirley1011
November 20th, 2010, 01:00 PM
My contracts were always that way too Mona.....and I know when we were buying our male we paid $300.00 more for that right....and I have never had anyone who wanted to pay extra for the breeding contract and I check after the first year to make sure they have been neutered....

mona_b
November 20th, 2010, 02:46 PM
and I know when we were buying our male we paid $300.00 more for that right.

What age did you get him?

erykah1310
November 20th, 2010, 03:09 PM
In my contract for my pups they had to spay/neuter before a year old. And once I recieved proof of this from their veterinarian, i sent back $200 to the owners.
There is only one that hasnt been done yet, (and Tibby of course cause shes mine)
If someone wanted a breeding potential pup from me, it is on co ownership, they can not register a litter out of their dog unless I signed off on the litter as well. Karma is on said co ownership as well. Her breeder and I agreed that once all her health testing was done she would drop off her paperwork. Her health testing has been done for some time now, but I'm just not in a rush to get her name off the paperwork.

My website clearly states we are not breeding this year and are uncertain about next year with detailed explanation of what our plans with the dogs are for the next year or two. Doesnt matter, people are still contacting me for puppies.
I know there is not likely going to be any Canadian litters for Tibetan Mastiffs this year as most of us are working dilegently to get out breed club up and running and with last year and the amount of families who backed out last minute. We're all pushing rescue.

Now on to the topic at hand. I'm sorry, anyone who knows me knows I am all for rescue, half of my dogs are rescues and even when I said "no more for a while" Elmo still wiggled his way into our hearts.
Thing is, I am proud to say I support code of ethics breeders and I really dont see any sign of me not purchasing again. Mixed breeds and shelter dogs are great pets, and give just as much love and respect as a puppy from a top line, but after Puppy man, I dont like the uncertanty of health. I dont like not knowing anything about the parents or lines. If I'm paying for a dog, I'm going to make sure all proper steps have been taken that it has a better chance of not having inherit defects.
Take Elmo for instance. I dont know if he's out of "prized" fighting lines, so i have no idea what to expect out of him as far of his dog agression which is starting with him. Unfortunately for him, I have to just go with the presumption that he is out of said lines. Kita I have no idea if she is from lines riddled with HD/ED, CM, eye problems, cancer ect. At her age now I am watching her like a hawk.
I know Meiko is out of good working lines somewhere in his pedigree, after talking to many Border Collie people.
I personally dont like not knowing what to expect out of my dogs, to some extent. I have my dogs for life, and always have so forgive me for not rescuing my last few ('cept Elmo of course )

TeriM
November 21st, 2010, 12:26 AM
I guess there is no answer except trying to educate. Does anyone ever think we will see the day when it will start to pay off?

Judging by a few of the responses in this thread I would say that it is already paying off at a few good people at a time :thumbs up.

This issue is something I have been researching a lot lately. I will likely be buying a puppy sometime next spring. I have become very interested in competitive dog sports (rally, obedience and agility) and unfortunately without having a registered breed it is very difficult to find competitions. The majority of competitions on the west coast are CKC rules and only allow registered dogs.

I have found a breeder in Ontario that is a member of the breed club of Canada board as well as the Ontario board. She trials her dogs regularly in multiple sports and requires all her puppies to work towards at least one title and complete three 6-8 week obedience sessions in the first year. The application form is five pages long. Her dogs are tested for all eyes/hips/throid etc. The dog I am interested in was breed at age 4 and will have her second/final litter two years later which will be this spring. My obedience instructor also is a friend of hers and highly recommends her. There is a four year health guarantee and a lifetime return policy. This is the type of stuff we should all demand from the breeder we choose :).

14+kitties
November 21st, 2010, 10:00 AM
I know my educating with friends and co workers has paid off. I have a few friends who have/are showing, but have no plans on breeding.

:thumbs up That is always good to hear!! Keep up the good work mf. :highfive:

Judging by a few of the responses in this thread I would say that it is already paying off at a few good people at a time

Yes, I sure hope so Teri. :fingerscr Hopefully this thread can continue to educate with positive information. That would be wonderful!

mona_b
November 21st, 2010, 09:09 PM
:thumbs up That is always good to hear!! Keep up the good work mf. :highfive:

I try mf, I try.:D

I may have to repeat myself to people sometimes, but I'm used to that. LOL.

I used to get flack from as to why my boys were fixed. Yes they came from an amazing ethical breeder and so did the Sire. Titles galore. And many on the Canine Unit. My answer to them, they are my pets/companions. I leave the breeding to the ethical breeders.:thumbs up

My niece text me today. She said she had a couple of people ask if she planned to use Deacon as a stud. Deacon is her NEUTERED Black Russian Terrier.:rolleyes:

What the He!! is up with people wanting to breed? I just don't get it. And it's just so frustrating. Honestly, I have absalutely no issues with people wanting to go to ethical breeders. It's their choice. I did it. And used the same breeder for all 3. But seriously, just because you have a registered dog, that doesn't mean you need to breed.

Look at these doodles, noodles, shipoos, morkies, dorkies ect. They put 2 different breeds together. Do you honestly think that each parent that made this "breed" came from an ethical breed? Not at all. Ethical breeders cringe to all this designer breeding.

Wow Terri, now THAT is a breeder you want. :thumbs up

I take it you will be going to meet her?

But the good thing is they can be altered.:D

My GSD was neutered at 6 months. He is SchH III titled. Deacon is also SchH III Titled. See you can own an altered dog and have titles too.:D