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cat with kidney failure, now has bladder infection

HereToday
November 11th, 2010, 05:24 PM
Hi - my siamese cat was diagnosed with kidney failure last Feb. and is on epakitin and azodyl. Last week I thought she had the cat flu as she had vomiting and diarrhea - the vet said if it goes on more than 2 days to bring her in. After 2 days she seemed to be ok again and then last night she started pacing back and forth to the litterbox and I saw blood in it. She also urinated on the carpet and I saw it was bloody when I wiped it up so took her to the vet thismorning and he did blood and urine tests and gave her an antibiotic injection. He said the injection lasts two weeks and I didn't have to take antibiotics home, he said it was some new thing. He recommended the k/d feline renal health canned food. Can anyone recommend what other foods I can give her? Maybe there is a good dried food, she seems to prefer the dried food now. Another thing I was wondering - the azodyl capsules say on the bottle to give whole, not to crush or open them but they are huge. I have been mixing them with canned food (receptionist at vet said this is ok) but was wondering if I could mix both of the meds with water and give them with a syringe (another receptionist at the vets suggested this). Has anyone ever dealt with these meds? I will get the results of the tests Saturday. Thanks for any info. anyone can give me

HereToday
November 13th, 2010, 04:13 AM
this k/d feline renal health is not working at all, she will only eat a little bit of it and it is $2.50 a can plus 12% tax. I was feeding her Fancy Feast chicken feast in gravy which doesn't seem to be too bad on Tanya's Guide, the Wellness and Merrick brands have quite a bit more phosphorus.

growler~GateKeeper
November 14th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Hi - my siamese cat was diagnosed with kidney failure last Feb. and is on epakitin and azodyl.

Is she on fluid therapy yet? Do you have a copy of her test results?

Last week I thought she had the cat flu as she had vomiting and diarrhea - the vet said if it goes on more than 2 days to bring her in. After 2 days she seemed to be ok again and then last night she started pacing back and forth to the litterbox and I saw blood in it.

Was she given a subq fluid injection to combat dehydration from concurrant vomiting & diarreah?

Can anyone recommend what other foods I can give her? Maybe there is a good dried food, she seems to prefer the dried food now.

She really should be off dry food entirely especially with this new bladder infection. Canned of course is much much better than dry & with the dry you need to make sure she is drinking enough water, however if it is a matter of her not eating or eating :shrug:

Wellness Healthy Weight (http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_healthy_weight.html) has a dry matter phosphorus of 0.79%, Wellness Indoor Health (http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_indoor_health.html) has a dry matter phosphorus @ 0.85%, Eagle Pack Original Adult Cat (http://www.eaglepack.com/product-original-cat.aspx?product=97) is .77% dm phos.

Another thing I was wondering - the azodyl capsules say on the bottle to give whole, not to crush or open them but they are huge. I have been mixing them with canned food (receptionist at vet said this is ok) but was wondering if I could mix both of the meds with water and give them with a syringe (another receptionist at the vets suggested this). Has anyone ever dealt with these meds? I will get the results of the tests Saturday. Thanks for any info. anyone can give me

According to Vetoquinol the makers of Azodyl opening the capsules & mixing with food/water may reduce effecacy http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/CoreProducts/CardioNephrologyRenal/Azodyl.html

I've only ever given them whole, you can put a tiny bit of butter on the capsule to make it easier for your cat to swallow & then follow with a yummy treat or meal.

Be sure to keep them in the fridge even if the bottle is not open yet.

this k/d feline renal health is not working at all, she will only eat a little bit of it and it is $2.50 a can plus 12% tax. I was feeding her Fancy Feast chicken feast in gravy which doesn't seem to be too bad on Tanya's Guide, the Wellness and Merrick brands have quite a bit more phosphorus.

The k/d will only work if the cat will actually eat it, and many will not, so finding another low phos food with good (not too low) protein levels will encourage eating.

Re the Fancy Feast alot of the food choices depends on what she will eat cuz no matter how low the phos if she won't eat it, it's not going to help. Also depends on how comfortable you are with the ingredients in the Fancy Feast vs the holistic brands ie "wheat gluten" and "meat by-products".

HereToday
November 14th, 2010, 01:46 AM
I will get her test results tomorrow, I will ask him for a printout - not sure what exactly to ask him on the phone. She was not on any fluid injections - I didn't take her to the vet at first as she seemed to get over that vomiting and diarrhea fairly quickly - it was on and off for a couple of days. She and is still drinking quite a bit of water. She doesn't seem to want to eat much canned food, all she wants is the dry - I have put it up for now but she still won't eat much canned. The Wellness on the list I printed out from Tanya's site says Wellness Chicken 1.15 on the same page as the Fancy Feast is listed at 1.12 for phosphorus. The list was 28 printed pages long so it is kind of confusing trying to locate one food that I could try. I took her to the vet once I realized that she had blood in the urine and was leaving drops of blood in the litterbox. It would be good to learn more about how to manage her kidney failure tho, I wasn't keeping the azodyl in the fridge at first, the vet didn't mention it and I didn't see it in small print on the bottom of the bottle. What do you think about mixing it with water and giving it with a syringe? It took both my daughter and I to give her pills before and now my daughter has moved out. Thanks for the info., I need to try to get regular blood tests - this one might not be reliable because of her being sick the week before and not eating much for awhile. She seems to be losing weight still - when she was put on them she was 6 lbs. 6 oz. and now is 6 lbs and half an oz. I thought she would be doing better on them.

growler~GateKeeper
November 14th, 2010, 02:23 AM
There is a sticky thread at the top of the Cat Health Forum called Early Stage Kidney Failure in Cat (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45017) you will find it to be a long read but there is a link to a summary post in the first one. Lots of good tips, info & links in there.

The Azodyl & Epakitin aren't for weight gain/management but for uremia & phos control. It will be mentioned on the label to keep it in the fridge at 4*C for best results or like some of the ones I purchased had a round green sticker on the lid that said 4*C.

I would still think whole is the most effective way to give the Azodyl, though the company is doing trials on it mixed with food :shrug:

In order to maintain/increase her weight she needs to eat consistently and a good quality protein. Foods such as Wellness, Evo 95%, Merricks Before Grain 96%, Halo, Holistic Select etc will have a higher animal meat protein content than FF since they do not contain corn, wheat gluten etc.

Does she seem to be nauseous before/during/after she eats? Lip licking, droolng, heaving, holding her head over the bowl but not eating etc

Do you have her dish raised up between 2-6 inches off the ground? This will help to reduce nausea by ensuring her head is above her stomach when she eats/drinks keeping the stomach acid in her stomach. I say 2-6" so you can make it where ever is most comfortable for her size. Even if she isn't nauseous this may encourage her to eat more as the angle of her neck would be more comfortable for an older kitty. A phone book, low box, plant stand etc are good, just ensure the dishes can't slip off & scare her while she eats.

You can also encourage more canned food eating by adding a couple of crushed dry krunchies on the top, tiny bits of cooked chicken, sprinkle of parmesan cheese.

Since she is tiny & not eating much right now I would offer her a variety of different brands/flavours from the list to see what she will eat & expand from there. You don't have to restrict her food choices to one brand or flavour, in fact it's better to have a few different ones in case she decides at some point she doesn't like a particular food, then you still have more to choose from.

:goodvibes: Let us know what the test results say

HereToday
November 14th, 2010, 06:49 AM
I did manage to coat one capsule of azodyl in butter and give it to her whole, it was a battle tho. I don't necessarily need her to gain weight but don't like her losing it all the time. Yes she loves cooked chicken, I have been giving her some but by itself - good idea to mix it with the food. I will post the results as soon as they tell me, but I remember in February all he said to me was that her kidneys weren't working properly, will have to ask him for more details.

HereToday
November 14th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Vet said her BUN is 23.3 which is better than it was in Feb. when it was 30.3. But her creatinine is high, it has gone from 245 to 297. She was sick for awhile before I brought her in (vomitiing/diarrhea) and not eating much so she wouldn't have been getting all her medications. No growler she is not nauseous anymore since starting these medications, it's just that she only eats little small bits at a time and then the canned food totally dries out. They told me to come in some time and they will give me a bad and needles to give her fluids underneath the skin but she actually doesn't seem to need water to me - she drinks constantly - wish she would eat that way. Anyway thanks for the info. and anything else you can tell me about her blood levels or diet. Thanks again

HereToday
November 14th, 2010, 01:34 PM
I saw some places on Tanya's forum I think it was where you could order azodyl online - has anyone tried this? The vet charges quite a bit about $60 a bottle. I get the big bottles of epakitin for about the same price but at least they last awhile, the last time they said I could try giving her 2 azodyl capsules a day instead of 1 (gets a bit expensive).

HereToday
November 14th, 2010, 01:51 PM
the vet said that there was no anemia in the blood which is good

HereToday
November 15th, 2010, 02:33 PM
I just went up and bought Wellness chicken, chicken and herring, Evo Turkey and Chicken and some Holistic Select brand - the pet food store said I shouldn't be feeding my cat these foods because they are high in protein. They said if I do only give her one table spoon a day. They should what I should be looking at is low protein foods like Science Died or Royal Canin. I phoned my vet who of course only recommended k/d so I told them my cat doesn't like it and she put me on hold and came back and said they have some other kind called Reducing Protein. I am completely confused - I said well what about the phosphorus and the pet food store said they had never heard of looking for low phosphorus content for a cat with kidney problems. They also said you can't buy Instinct in Canada now, something about the supplier. They said that the calories can be high for weight gain but not the protein because the kidneys can't process it. I did raise her dishes up on some phone books - she only eats little bits at a time so their must be some reason.

sugarcatmom
November 15th, 2010, 04:30 PM
the pet food store said I shouldn't be feeding my cat these foods because they are high in protein.

Like most vets, most of the people that work in pet food stores don't know the first thing about feline nutrition. Do your own research and make your own decision:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040205075757/http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html
http://files.championpetfoods.com/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf
http://www.felineoutreach.org/Education/Kidney.html
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=003

They also said you can't buy Instinct in Canada now, something about the supplier.

Not true. Perhaps they're having trouble with their supplier, but NV Instinct is most certainly available at other stores in Canada.

HereToday
November 15th, 2010, 09:54 PM
Like most vets, most of the people that work in pet food stores don't know the first thing about feline nutrition. Do your own research and make your own decision:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040205075757/http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html


ok thanks, it is hard when they are using different measures, the first url says "It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL, and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL. " My results were given as creatinine has gone from 245 to 297 and her BUN when from 30.3 to 23.3. The measure they are using for creatinine must be a different one. Or maybe my cat's is away over?

HereToday
November 15th, 2010, 10:04 PM
The third url says "If you are using a phosphorus binder, a low-phosphorus prescription diet may not be necessary, and simple readily-available canned foods may work fine. Low-protein prescription diets may exacerbate the anemia and muscle wastage commonly secondary to kidney disease, and may elevate Creatinine levels." Isn't epikitin a phosphorus binder? She is on that plus azodyl. The pet food store told me that the Fancy Feline food I had been giving her has too much salt and could have caused her kidney disease in the first place. My cats ate dried food for years tho, she has only eaten more of the canned food in the last couple of yrs.

HereToday
November 15th, 2010, 10:47 PM
and in the last url it says "The real culprit is actually phosphorus, which meat contains in large amounts. The only way to restrict phosphorus is to restrict protein." I have this bag of Royal Canin dry food that they recommended, don't know whether I should try to take it back or not, I already opened it but it is supposed to have some returnable guarantee - not sure if it is if your cat won't eat it or what. I am totally confused, I phoned my vet but all they would recommend is k/d or some other kind "reducing protein". I guess I will talk to the vet when I take her in for another blood test but until then???

HereToday
November 16th, 2010, 12:36 AM
am able to give her the capsules covered in butter - she loves butter and it is working well - thanks very much for the tip, never thought I could do it myself after our experience giving her antibiotics

growler~GateKeeper
November 18th, 2010, 01:15 AM
I did manage to coat one capsule of azodyl in butter and give it to her whole, it was a battle tho. I don't necessarily need her to gain weight but don't like her losing it all the time. Yes she loves cooked chicken, I have been giving her some but by itself - good idea to mix it with the food. I will post the results as soon as they tell me, but I remember in February all he said to me was that her kidneys weren't working properly, will have to ask him for more details.

Being that she is so little, :2cents: personally, I would be more comfortable if she did have a bit more weight on her, just to have a little room to loose if she does.

Perhaps mixing a bit of chicken into her canned food will encourage her to eat more - make sure you smoosh it in good, so she doesn't just eat the chicken & leave the rest. :cat:

Vet said her BUN is 23.3 which is better than it was in Feb. when it was 30.3. But her creatinine is high, it has gone from 245 to 297. She was sick for awhile before I brought her in (vomitiing/diarrhea) and not eating much so she wouldn't have been getting all her medications. No growler she is not nauseous anymore since starting these medications, it's just that she only eats little small bits at a time and then the canned food totally dries out. They told me to come in some time and they will give me a bad and needles to give her fluids underneath the skin but she actually doesn't seem to need water to me - she drinks constantly - wish she would eat that way. Anyway thanks for the info. and anything else you can tell me about her blood levels or diet. Thanks again

Do you have the reference ranges the lab used for those values? Depending upon which lab is used, I've seen as much as a 20 pt difference in normal ranges for Cre.

Good drop on the BUN :thumbs up Creatinine is never good to go up, but considering that's not too bad. Cre is a more accurate measure of kidney function than BUN is, because BUN is affected by diet, stress, dehydration where Cre is to a far lesser degree.

Add a bit of water to the canned food - great way to get her more water, make it a little more moist & it will stay that way longer. You can also add a bit of water to it when it gets dry & stir it up. Some cats do like the dried bits of canned food, and some prefer it almost a soup consistency.

Her drinking water constantly is a sign that she's not getting enough water.

Healthy cats that eat a primarily canned or raw food diet are not supposed to need to drink water on a consistant basis, since they are getting their moisture from their food. A cat that is fed primarily a dryfood diet is chronically dehydrated from the lack of moisture in their food plus the higher salt content put in there to make them drink water.

A CRF cat expels more water in their urine to rid their body of the toxins than they could possibly drink to properly re-hydrate themselves. They need drink more & pee more often to get rid of the same amount of toxins than a healthy cat.

Normally the water/moisture they intake with their food or by drinking is used through the body, cleaned by their liver & kidneys then recycled back to be used through the body again. The urine output of a healthy cat is highly concentrated and has very little water content in it, whereas the urine output of a CRF cat has far more water content to expel the same amount of toxins.

I saw some places on Tanya's forum I think it was where you could order azodyl online - has anyone tried this? The vet charges quite a bit about $60 a bottle. I get the big bottles of epakitin for about the same price but at least they last awhile, the last time they said I could try giving her 2 azodyl capsules a day instead of 1 (gets a bit expensive).

I always bought the Azodyl from the vet :shrug: I was paying $44/bottle, my vet was also ordering in for several clients at a time, so if your vet is only ordering the Azodyl in for 1 or 2 clients their costs may be higher as well.

If you order online you need to make sure it is cold shipped - ie packed in icepacks, since it requires refridgeration even unopened and the delivery time/distance is short.

The label says for between 5-10lbs to give 1 in the morning & 1 in the evening, that is what I would do as well. (My CRF cat was 11lbs and getting 3 Azodyl per day)

growler~GateKeeper
November 18th, 2010, 01:22 AM
I just went up and bought Wellness chicken, chicken and herring, Evo Turkey and Chicken and some Holistic Select brand - the pet food store said I shouldn't be feeding my cat these foods because they are high in protein. They said if I do only give her one table spoon a day. They should what I should be looking at is low protein foods like Science Died or Royal Canin. I phoned my vet who of course only recommended k/d so I told them my cat doesn't like it and she put me on hold and came back and said they have some other kind called Reducing Protein. I am completely confused - I said well what about the phosphorus and the pet food store said they had never heard of looking for low phosphorus content for a cat with kidney problems. They also said you can't buy Instinct in Canada now, something about the supplier. They said that the calories can be high for weight gain but not the protein because the kidneys can't process it. I did raise her dishes up on some phone books - she only eats little bits at a time so their must be some reason.

Wellness Chicken & Herring is too high 1.48% phos, you want less than 1.25% max.

Evo chicken & turkey - was that the purple label -cat & kitten @ 1.31% dm phos - OR the orange label -95% @ 0.88% dm phos -? Evo 95% Chicken & Turkey orange label is better as it is lower.

Many vets will only recommend their own prescription diets, alot of kidney cats will not eat it because there is not enough protein to make it palatable especially if they're not feeling good to begin with.

The people at the petfood store have obviously not done their research for a kidney cat appropriate diet. Phos levels are far more important than protein, yes many of the low protein foods will have low phos, but you can also get good protein with low phos. If you lower the protein too much the cats will refuse to eat it cuz it doesn't smell like food, they also start loosing muscle mass faster & can't regain any on restricted protein foods.

All Nature's Variety food are too high in phosphorus, with the exception of 1 flavour - Instinct Chicken. All other NV flavours should not be fed to a CRF cat.

ok thanks, it is hard when they are using different measures, the first url says "It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL, and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL. " My results were given as creatinine has gone from 245 to 297 and her BUN when from 30.3 to 23.3. The measure they are using for creatinine must be a different one. Or maybe my cat's is away over?

That is in regards to Dogs which have different requirements than cats, and it's a US article so they are using the US Measurement system. The conversion for that article from US Measurement to Standard International would be BUN (80mg/dL US) 28.56mg/dL SI and Cre (2.5mg/dL US) 221umol/L SI but again this is regarding Dogs not cats.

The physiological kidney function is slightly different in dogs & cats, the bloodwork acceptable ranges for dogs are different than cats, and their food & treatment requirements will be slightly different as well.

Dogs don't concentrate their urine like cats do, dogs also naturally & normally drink far more water than cats.

The third url says "If you are using a phosphorus binder, a low-phosphorus prescription diet may not be necessary, and simple readily-available canned foods may work fine. Low-protein prescription diets may exacerbate the anemia and muscle wastage commonly secondary to kidney disease, and may elevate Creatinine levels." Isn't epikitin a phosphorus binder? She is on that plus azodyl. The pet food store told me that the Fancy Feline food I had been giving her has too much salt and could have caused her kidney disease in the first place. My cats ate dried food for years tho, she has only eaten more of the canned food in the last couple of yrs.

Which is why you don't need the prescription food from the vet, but in choosing a food that is lower in phos you are allowing the Epakitin to work more efficiently.

http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/CoreProducts/CardioNephrologyRenal/Epakitin.html
For best results, it is suggested to use Epakitin in combination with a low phosphorous diet. However, Epakitinís highly palatable formulation can be used with regular food in animals that refuse to change their diet.

After the phos comment from the food store people, not too sure I'd be listening too closely to their recommendations :2cents:. Yes there is salt in the Fancy Feast canned but I would put more weight towards the lifelong dryfood diet & natural aging as causes of her kidney decline than a couple of years of eating the FF canned.

and in the last url it says "The real culprit is actually phosphorus, which meat contains in large amounts. The only way to restrict phosphorus is to restrict protein." I have this bag of Royal Canin dry food that they recommended, don't know whether I should try to take it back or not, I already opened it but it is supposed to have some returnable guarantee - not sure if it is if your cat won't eat it or what. I am totally confused, I phoned my vet but all they would recommend is k/d or some other kind "reducing protein". I guess I will talk to the vet when I take her in for another blood test but until then???

And then it says:
However, some studies have suggested that excessive restriction of protein may actually cause further damage to the kidneys and other organs, because there is not enough protein for normal body maintenance and repair. Experts say that these diets are not appropriate until the BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen) is at least double what it should be normally {21.42 - 28.56mmol/L SI} (about 60-80 mg/dl US).

Furthermore, there is one big problem with using the protein-restricted commercial diets: many cats don't like them, and won't eat them. Obviously, it does little good to provide a special diet if the cat is going to starve to death!

Basically since you have your cat on a phos binder & azodyl, a lower phos diet is sufficient and she doesn't need a restricted protein prescription diet.

Take the RC back & tell them she won't eat it. :2cents:

If you must have dryfood in addition to the canned, the 3 I mentioned in an earlier post have good dm phos numbers & are a better choice.

am able to give her the capsules covered in butter - she loves butter and it is working well - thanks very much for the tip, never thought I could do it myself after our experience giving her antibiotics

:thumbs up Excellent.

Ally&Jakub
November 18th, 2010, 01:01 PM
This sounds like something simlar to what my parents' cat experienced. It began with bladder infections and they tried many different things. She also had blood in her urine and it was pretty scary. The thing that finally worked for her was a holistic treatment mixed with a diet of urinary-SO canned food. Many brands make it, but I like Wellness. She gets half of a small can of Wellness in the evening with 8 drops of Kindey-X in it. It's a natural kindey health promoter. She also gets some cranberry powder in her food once a week and one capsul of hydrangea every other day. We just open the capsule and mix the powder in with the food. She also gets dry food in the morning with the Kidney-X in it (8 drops) and some water. They mix some water with all her food, even the canned food because she doesn't drink very much and it helps her get more moisture. This is the website that my mom uses. It is full of info.

http://creaturecomfort.com/

My parents' cat was not in such a stage of kidney failure, and this may be more of a prevention method than a treatment, but it seemed to work for them. So perhaps if you find a treatment that works and you want to take preventative measures afterwards, this could be helpful because it helps prevent both bladder and kidney issues.

HereToday
November 19th, 2010, 02:44 PM
Evo chicken & turkey - was that the purple label -cat & kitten @ 1.31% dm phos - OR the orange label -95% @ 0.88% dm phos -? Evo 95% Chicken & Turkey orange label is better as it is lower.



It is actually the purple label, I will take the Science Diet back and get some of the orange label Evo, that's if they have it. Or if they don't I will try another pet food store, you are right they are not too good with info. re cat's health. I will have alot of questions for my vet too the next time I get her blood checked, or maybe I will drop by and ask the receptionist some questions, I didn't get much info. when I phoned. They always seem to be super busy but if you are standing there they can't get rid of you so easily. Thanks for all your info., good thing I found this forum.

HereToday
November 19th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Do you have the reference ranges the lab used for those values? Depending upon which lab is used, I've seen as much as a 20 pt difference in normal ranges for Cre.


No I will go up there maybe Monday and ask my vet. I don't think he is on weekends anymore (has a partner now) and I worked the night shift last night. I will also start giving her more azodyl - you were giving your cat 3? Wow but then 11 lbs. is almost twice my cat's weight. Thanks again for all the info.

growler~GateKeeper
November 21st, 2010, 01:32 AM
I will take the Science Diet back and get some of the orange label Evo, that's if they have it. Or if they don't I will try another pet food store

You can also ask about their policy on special ordering in brands/flavours they don't normally stock, the store will have to order by the case and some stores will require you to purchase the entire case, others may not. Of course it's always a good idea to make sure your cat will eat a particular brand/flavour before ordering a full case, just incase the cat doesn't like it. ;)

No I will go up there maybe Monday and ask my vet. I don't think he is on weekends anymore (has a partner now) and I worked the night shift last night. I will also start giving her more azodyl - you were giving your cat 3? Wow but then 11 lbs. is almost twice my cat's weight. Thanks again for all the info.

You can ask for a printout copy of the test results for your records, makes it easier to compare the next test to this one, then you have it on hand for any questions to the vet.

Be sure to mention to the receptionist that you are increasing the Azodyl dosage so they can mark that in Shadow's file.

Yes my girl was a bit on the chubby side, she was always around 12-13lbs & her vet figured that might've saved her life when she was diagnosed w/CRF (2007 toxic vet food recall) as she had a little extra padding so the toxins didn't affect her as severely as they might've a smaller cat. She was 11lbs when she started the Azodyl and as such she was in the higher weight range on the chart so she got 3 per day, good thing she was so easy to pill. :D They do also get used to it and eventually it just becomes routine. :cat:

HereToday
December 5th, 2010, 04:10 AM
now that I am giving her more azodyl, I had to put her back on the Fancy Feast for now tho, she wouldn't eat much of the Evo or Wellness even when it was mixed with Fancy Feast, only a couple of bites every few hours, it was getting scary. It is still quite a battle to give her the capsules. I haven't been up to the vet yet, we had 2 snowstorms here and I got sick from losing so much sleep on this night shift. Next month I will (hopefully) be back on afternoon shift.

sugarcatmom
December 5th, 2010, 11:53 AM
All Nature's Variety food are too high in phosphorus, with the exception of 1 flavour - Instinct Chicken. All other NV flavours should not be fed to a CRF cat.


Just wanted to clarify that NV Lamb is actually lower in phosphorus than the chicken (1.15% vs 1.23%).

growler~GateKeeper
December 5th, 2010, 02:37 PM
now that I am giving her more azodyl, I had to put her back on the Fancy Feast for now tho, she wouldn't eat much of the Evo or Wellness even when it was mixed with Fancy Feast, only a couple of bites every few hours, it was getting scary. It is still quite a battle to give her the capsules. I haven't been up to the vet yet, we had 2 snowstorms here and I got sick from losing so much sleep on this night shift. Next month I will (hopefully) be back on afternoon shift.

No matter how healthy or low in phos a food is it won't do her any good if she won't eat it. She needs to eat, and if she'll eat FF, feed her FF :shrug:

A quick check of the ingredient list for these and they do all contain wheat gluten, which is something I personally am not comfortable with given the 2007 recall, but they are all low phos.

Gravy Lovers Salmon Feast in Seared Salmon Flavor Gravy
Gravy Lovers Chicken Feast in Grilled Chicken Flavor Gravy
Sliced Chicken Hearts & Liver Feast In Gravy
Sliced Salmon & Chicken Feast In Gravy
Gravy Lovers Beef Feast in Roasted Beef Flavor Gravy
Grilled Tuna Feast In Gravy
Grilled Turkey Feast In Gravy
Grilled Tender Beef & Liver Feast In Gravy
Sliced Beef Feast In Gravy
Sliced Turkey & Giblets Feast In Gravy
Sliced Chicken Feast In Gravy
Sliced Turkey Feast In Gravy
Grilled Salmon & Shrimp Feast In Gravy
Grilled Seafood Feast In Gravy
Grilled Chicken Feast In Gravy
Grilled Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast In Gravy
Marinated Morsels Chicken Feast In Gravy
Marinated Morsels Salmon Feast In Gravy
Sliced Beef & Giblets Feast In Gravy
Roasted Chicken Feast


Just wanted to clarify that NV Lamb is actually lower in phosphorus than the chicken (1.15% vs 1.23%).

Not according to the Nature's Variety website. They have nutrient analysis of 0.379% phos when you do the conversion thats 1.51% dm phos - far too high. On the list from Tanya's site it shows 1.15% and I've emailed Helen about that to see if it's a typo, but got no response.

Until either NV or Tanya's site is changed I'll use the numbers from the manufacture's site & do the conversion myself, just in case it's the same situation same as before with the Evo :2cents:.

sugarcatmom
December 6th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Not according to the Nature's Variety website. They have nutrient analysis of 0.379% phos when you do the conversion thats 1.51% dm phos - far too high. On the list from Tanya's site it shows 1.15% and I've emailed Helen about that to see if it's a typo, but got no response.


Oh geez, thanks for pointing that out! I tend to forget about checking the manufacturer's websites cause I'm not used to them having any decent info. Kudos to NV for putting that on there, although I wish they'd also put the 'as fed' values for protein/fat/carbohydrate and moisture, rather than the guaranteed analysis. Some of the flavours may have less than 75% moisture and would therefore have better phosphorus levels. I think that's why I prefer the mg per 100kcal method of comparison.

growler~GateKeeper
December 6th, 2010, 11:56 PM
Some of the flavours may have less than 75% moisture and would therefore have better phosphorus levels.

I've noticed most manufactures don't seem to stray too much from the listed min/max amount for moisture they are usually within 2-3% difference, other ingredients yeah they can vary more. Even so a canned food with any more than .30 as fed phosphorus is going to be too high regardless of the moisture content, the conversion will place it over 1.20 dm phos and I prefer going no higher than 1.23% max :2cents:

growler~GateKeeper
December 29th, 2010, 11:45 PM
Not according to the Nature's Variety website. They have nutrient analysis of 0.379% phos when you do the conversion thats 1.51% dm phos - far too high. On the list from Tanya's site it shows 1.15% and I've emailed Helen about that to see if it's a typo, but got no response.

Until either NV or Tanya's site is changed I'll use the numbers from the manufacture's site & do the conversion myself, just in case it's the same situation same as before with the Evo :2cents:.

I heard back from Helen @ Tanya's CRF site this is the response that I got:

You are quite right about the Nature's Variety food. Getting the information out of them was like pulling teeth, they didn't seem to understand what we were asking for, but eventually somebody did get the data and sent it to me. I prefer to get data direct from the companies because their websites often show minimum values which are of no use to us.

A few weeks later, at my request, she contacted them about their other brands and it became apparent to her that the information given to her previously was incorrect. They just don't seem to understand what DMA is. She actually advised me of this just a couple of days before you did. I have been planning to recrunch the numbers...... I still hope to get it done before Christmas, but if not, I will definitely do it next week.

Thanks again

Helen

To reiterate NV Lamb is too high @ roughly 1.51% dm phos.

sugarcatmom
December 30th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I heard back from Helen @ Tanya's CRF site this is the response that I got:

Thanks for the update, growler. I sympathize with Helen's frustration in dealing with pet food manufacturers. Some of them are a pretty cagey lot - you'd think they were guarding military secrets or something. Of course part of the problem is that most of the people answering emails and phone calls don't know the first thing about nutrition. :rolleyes:

TrichC
February 14th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Our cats are very similar, although mine doesn't have a UTI, we're dealing with a skin tumor with the failing kidneys. Very fussy eater as well and would not eat ANY of the vet recommended diets, even home made food (which even I thought was super gross looking :yuck:). But she would eat Fancy Feast (I switched from Friskies), and since she was 15 I figured she'd had a good run and deserved to at least eat what she enjoyed. The vet gave her till spring and then we'd be looking at possibly putting her down, that was a year ago. Her levels have gone up a little but she's doing well.

This past weekend I thought she was slipping on me but it turned out her skin tumor was inflamed, so she got a shot of antibiotics (those are wonderful I have to say) and tonight she was eating like a champ. Over the weekend she had no interest in moist food so I kept offering her dry treats, she does have some fancy feast dry food but she'd only eat a little and the treats have more calories - she's always been too skinny. And really, now that she's 16 and a half, I pretty much give her whatever she'll eat. I've had enough cats that passed away quickly and I didn't get to spoil them because I didn't want them to get any bad habits, so she's pretty much getting away with murder these days :D :cat:

Good luck, hope you're both doing well

HereToday
February 25th, 2011, 03:59 AM
and the results were pretty good, her urea is up from 23.3 to 27.6 but the creatinine is down from 297 to 228. I asked the vet what stage the lab range would consider her to be in and he said stage 2. So it has been a help learning how to give her the azodyl capsules, it is still a hassle - she spits it out a lot and one time after I set her down she started choking and spit it out. Anyway it is alot better for her health this way so I will continue. TrichC I hope you are doing well with your cat - sounds like you are trying everything. My cat is 14 now and she seems to sleep alot. She can still jump really high when she feels like it, she jumped up on the armchair awhile ago to see if there was any butter around (she loves butter).

HereToday
February 25th, 2011, 04:12 AM
that she also gained 4 oz!! Thanks very much for the info. on giving her the azodyl capsules, it has improved her health quite a bit.

growler~GateKeeper
February 27th, 2011, 07:45 PM
and the results were pretty good, her urea is up from 23.3 to 27.6 but the creatinine is down from 297 to 228. I asked the vet what stage the lab range would consider her to be in and he said stage 2. So it has been a help learning how to give her the azodyl capsules, it is still a hassle - she spits it out a lot and one time after I set her down she started choking and spit it out. Anyway it is alot better for her health this way so I will continue. TrichC I hope you are doing well with your cat - sounds like you are trying everything. My cat is 14 now and she seems to sleep alot. She can still jump really high when she feels like it, she jumped up on the armchair awhile ago to see if there was any butter around (she loves butter).

Awesome drop in Cre :thumbs up The level of Urea is more influenced by different things which Cre is not as much, so it's harder to get the Cre to drop.

I found the easiest way to give any pills is just slide it from the roof of the mouth down the back of the throat just past the swallowing/gag point so it goes down easy & isn't spit back out. Once the cat gets used to this as a daily/twice daily occurance and you become more confident doing it, it will just be routine.

that she also gained 4 oz!! Thanks very much for the info. on giving her the azodyl capsules, it has improved her health quite a bit.

Great news on the weight gain :highfive:

hazelrunpack
February 28th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Sounds like things are going pretty well, HereToday... :grouphug: :goodvibes: