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Is it just me...

cassiek
September 29th, 2010, 08:01 PM
... or does there seem to be more than the "normal" amount of users who won't have their dog/cat spayed/neutered for a number of reasons lately? :shrug:

I feel so frustrated I can't even comment on these posts anymore except suggest these individuals to go to www.petfinder.com or volunteer at their local SPCA, HS, etc. where I hope they may begin to appreciate how much of a tragedy the over-population of cats/dogs in the world really is. :( :yell: I feel that most arguments to these individuals are falling on deaf ears, but I have faith that even if 1 person out of 10 changes their mind, it has been a success.

I just can not understand how in 2010, with all the information, research, and statistics that is widely distributed and available, anyone would even consider breeding their pet. Or, maybe not planning on breeding their pet but just not having them fixed. To me, this issue should not even be a debate anymore in 2010. I'm happy we are making slow progress in this area, but I fear in my life I will never see a time with no more homeless pets. :( (And I have at least another 50+ years to go...)

I am no angel... I have made mistakes in my lifetime of owning pets, including purchasing a dog from a BYB, something which I regret every day of my life and will never do again, now that I know better. Even 30 years ago when my parents adopted our first family dog, he was neutered, when there was not nearly as much education out there about the pet over-population. How do we not know any better now?

Please, please, please... for those of you who are considering breeding your pet or not having s/he fixed please check out this thread: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18285 I feel Lucky Rescue put it well.

I just have a hard time accepting that individuals can know about how many innocent, loving, sweet pets are killed because of their owner's irresponsibility (because, let's face it - most animals that end up in these situations is no fault of their own) and still want to breed their pets. :confused: Am I missing something here? Where is the common sense? Maybe it's a stretch here, but in my mind those who breed their pets irresponsibily are directly contributing to the murder of millions of dogs and cats every year.

I don't want this thread to turn into a hostile debate back and forth, rather I ask... no beg, those of you who are considering breeding your pet to please re-think it.

the gang
September 29th, 2010, 09:56 PM
no not just y:mad:ou

Dracko
September 29th, 2010, 10:08 PM
I'm convinced many of those threads are started by trolls and I don't even bother posting in them.

luckypenny
September 29th, 2010, 10:08 PM
Cassie, thank you for bringing this topic up. I can't speak for others but I do have to admit, until only 5 or so years ago, I didn't know much about what went on at shelters and pounds and how bad the pet overpopulation, abuse, abandonment rate was. For some reason, I always thought that SPCA's were where one took their pets to be neutered or was the place responsible for picking up strays who would shortly be found by their owners :o.

It was only when we had a truly awful experience did I begin to do some research, and it wasn't even related really but, one topic led to another and I just happened to fall on all sorts of information by 'mistake.'

I think that unless someone is looking for particular info, it's really not that readily available to the general public as we'd like to think. I often wonder how many of "us" had come here for one reason or another and learned so much more by accident? I know I sure am one of them.

Rgeurts
September 29th, 2010, 10:32 PM
I often wonder how many of "us" had come here for one reason or another and learned so much more by accident? I know I sure am one of them.

I am one of those people. And until we had health problems with Thorin, he wasn't neutered. Not because we wanted to breed him, but more because a) the surgery scared me b) we didn't see the need as he doesn't run free or go to off leash. I have learned alot from the people here, and am very appreciative :)

And also learned how important spaying/neutering is, not just for reproduction, but overall health of the animal.

cassiek
September 29th, 2010, 11:23 PM
I'm convinced many of those threads are started by trolls and I don't even bother posting in them.

I think so too... but sometimes I'm not so sure. Regardless, I volunteer at a HS and it just baffles me the number of calls every shift I have of yet another litter of puppies because of irresponsible owners, the incorrect information people have about spaying/neutering etc. :(

Cassie, thank you for bringing this topic up. I can't speak for others but I do have to admit, until only 5 or so years ago, I didn't know much about what went on at shelters and pounds and how bad the pet overpopulation, abuse, abandonment rate was. For some reason, I always thought that SPCA's were where one took their pets to be neutered or was the place responsible for picking up strays who would shortly be found by their owners :o.

It was only when we had a truly awful experience did I begin to do some research, and it wasn't even related really but, one topic led to another and I just happened to fall on all sorts of information by 'mistake.'

I think that unless someone is looking for particular info, it's really not that readily available to the general public as we'd like to think. I often wonder how many of "us" had come here for one reason or another and learned so much more by accident? I know I sure am one of them.

I also was not nearly aware of just how bad the situation is until about 4 years ago. Once I started becoming involved in rescue work and doing some research my eyes were quickly opened to the harsh reality of this tragedy. We had always had our pets fixed, probably more initially because we did not want to deal with the work puppies require and because of the health benefits, not necessarily because we realized how bad the pet over-population is. When Diesel came along I was bouncing up and down the day he went in to lose his buddies! :laughing:

Still, I like to think that one does not have to do that much digging to find the benefits of spaying and neutering your pets. Surely, the number of pet stores that are starting to promote rescues instead of buying puppymill pups, the billboards, the vast amount of literature on the topic is starting to get through to people... I hope. :shrug: With this day and age of all the information that is available literally at our fingertips it's not difficult to find the information... if you know what you are looking for. I know BFAS also does a lot of work in the US to promote No More Homeless Pets and does tons of advertising on the issue... I like to think that this info reaches members of the public and may cause them to think twice before breeding their pet. I know that I usually get comments from people that call the HS along the lines of "I guess this is why they are promoting spaying/neutering" and it gives me hope that people are starting to realize how important it is.

I really think our vets have such a huge advantage here. They talk to many, many pet owners and I hope that a lot of them also promote the surgery and explain the benefits of it. They really are at an advantage as they see so many clients and they are considered a reputable source.

I am one of those people. And until we had health problems with Thorin, he wasn't neutered. Not because we wanted to breed him, but more because a) the surgery scared me b) we didn't see the need as he doesn't run free or go to off leash. I have learned alot from the people here, and am very appreciative :)

And also learned how important spaying/neutering is, not just for reproduction, but overall health of the animal.

I think this is one of those things we just have to keep plugging away at, and slowly the situation will improve. Sometimes I just become so frustrated and saddened by how tragic reality really is and need to vent. :rolleyes:

luckypenny
September 29th, 2010, 11:32 PM
I think this is one of those things we just have to keep plugging away at, and slowly the situation will improve.

I believe it is improving, slowly but surely. Not sure how old you are Cassie but, when I was a kid only 30 years or so ago :rolleyes:, no one I ever knew spayed or neutered their pets :shrug:. Now that I think of it though, not too many people in our neighborhood had pets. I don't remember any cats living on our street and only two homes had dogs. Where I live now, at least every second house on the road has either dogs or cats.


Sometimes I just become so frustrated and saddened by how tragic reality really is and need to vent.

As you should when you need to :grouphug:.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 12:53 AM
I believe it is improving, slowly but surely. Not sure how old you are Cassie but, when I was a kid only 30 years or so ago :rolleyes:, no one I ever knew spayed or neutered their pets :shrug:. Now that I think of it though, not too many people in our neighborhood had pets. I don't remember any cats living on our street and only two homes had dogs. Where I live now, at least every second house on the road has either dogs or cats.




As you should when you need to :grouphug:.

I think the increased awareness over the past 20 years has really helped to decrease the number of pets euthanized every year. And certainly people seem to have more pets these days... I remember growing up it was common for a home to maybe have one dog or cat, but very rarely did homes have multiple dogs and/or cats like we see now! :laughing:

What's disturbing though is pre-1990's more than 15 million animals were PTS in the US. I believe these days it is down around 2-3 million. There certainly were less pets in people's homes pre-90's so that means that a good majority of animals were being PTS. Also means with all the pets we have these days, there are not nearly as many percentage wise being PTS. Maybe there wasn't the resources at that time to deal with the # of animals surrendered. Certainly in the last few years many rescues have sprung up, and the internet (in someways) has helped with the creation of sites such as PetFinder. And even though its taken 2 decades, we are obviously making some progress. I love the work rescues, shelters, HS, etc. do but to be honest I really think these days there is just too many alternatives to keeping your pet. Which is fortunate otherwise most of these pets may end up with a very tragic ending :( IMO, I think it has become so easy for people to "dump" off their pets somewhere - even though shelters are over full, they can usually find someone to take their animal somewhere. It has become very easy for people to just put their "problem" on another person and not hold up to their responsibilities. :shrug: :2cents:

14+kitties
September 30th, 2010, 06:11 AM
Great thread. One I will mull over this morning at work. :thumbs up

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 06:19 AM
I think that unless someone is looking for particular info, it's really not that readily available to the general public as we'd like to think. I often wonder how many of "us" had come here for one reason or another and learned so much more by accident? I know I sure am one of them.

I think you hit on a very important point here. Many, if not most of us, have made mistakes in the past (hey, I've got a byb dog myself), and only through experience have we learned better ways to go about things with our animals. I think most of these threads are probably started by people who have good intentions and genuinely don't know the facts or alternatives. I think when we jump down their throats with accusations and hostile words, we lose any chance to educate them...hostility leads to closed defensiveness, not an openness to be taught. :2cents:

mastifflover
September 30th, 2010, 06:55 AM
I think you hit on a very important point here. Many, if not most of us, have made mistakes in the past (hey, I've got a byb dog myself), and only through experience have we learned better ways to go about things with our animals. I think most of these threads are probably started by people who have good intentions and genuinely don't know the facts or alternatives. I think when we jump down their throats with accusations and hostile words, we lose any chance to educate them...hostility leads to closed defensiveness, not an openness to be taught. :2cents:

I also have learned a lot being here. I hope I have helped to also educate others. Without the knowledge of others here I would have not learned so many things and gotten some great advice. Some of the posts are definitely trolls those are the ones that are usually the ones that get everyone really upset and that is the reason they are here. Me too Bendyfoot I have also bought a dog many years ago from a byb. Now I know better so I do better. :pawprint:

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 07:39 AM
I also have learned a lot being here. I hope I have helped to also educate others. Without the knowledge of others here I would have not learned so many things and gotten some great advice. Some of the posts are definitely trolls those are the ones that are usually the ones that get everyone really upset and that is the reason they are here. Me too Bendyfoot I have also bought a dog many years ago from a byb. Now I know better so I do better. :pawprint:

And if they're not trolls? If they're just someone who's misinformed but actually cares about their pet, not knowing (because they haven't been educated) that their actions/decisions may not be in their pet's best interests? I think if someone suspects a poster is a troll, they should refrain from replying all together. If they don't ignore, I think they should park the hostility at the door and provide helpful information. :2cents:

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Ok, I am pretty sure I responded to this thread a few minutes ago, but it doesn't seem to be here :confused:. I wonder what thread I posted to :o :laughing:

BenMax
September 30th, 2010, 08:35 AM
I know I for one have learned tons of information on Pets. There is always room to grow and learn.

To be honest with you, and even though there is plenty of information out there on spay and neutering, over-population, gas chambers, lethal injections and the other mulitiple ways of destroying lives..if you don't ask questions, then alot of people really don't know.

Animals are 'property' in the eyes of the law. Because of this, we can avoid responsibility because property has a decreased value once purchased. You can dispose and do whatever you want with it, even though it lives and breaths. Until this mentality is convinced otherwise, people will still purchase from petstores, reproduce these creatures for profit or for the thrill of it without thinking about the consequences.

How about the costs of spay and neutering? Why is it that as important as this is, the medical community does not participate in trying to lower their darn prices to make it more accessible? The answer: Greed. Again - money is the nasty common denominator.

There are many campaigns out there to enlighten the public but again nothing that is more 'in your face'. Where are the billboards? I mean clothing companies splash half clad women on billboards to get the public's attention...where are the animal welfare campaigns? Why is it the animal food companies not trying to help out by putting a tiny bit of their profits towards educating the public? Greed.

It is going to take many many more years to educate. I fear we may not be around to see it. Our only hope is to let our children know so that they can pick up the slack and keep plugging away.

Great thread.:thumbs up

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 09:37 AM
And if they're not trolls? If they're just someone who's misinformed but actually cares about their pet, not knowing (because they haven't been educated) that their actions/decisions may not be in their pet's best interests? I think if someone suspects a poster is a troll, they should refrain from replying all together. If they don't ignore, I think they should park the hostility at the door and provide helpful information. :2cents:

I totally get the "let's educate" thing , I mean , I've been trying to help here for 5 years now. But in some cases ... I'm like , come on , it's 2010 , people should know better by now. :shrug:

If they come here to ask questions , that means they do have a computer and have internet access. They can look up infos (which btw , is very easy to find) and yet , they don't. They can call vet offices and ask a question , and yet , they don't. :shrug:

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 09:46 AM
Why should they know better? I'm being serious! I considered myself to be a well-educated person AND an animal lover...but I still got a dog from a byb. I got my pets spayed/neutered because "that's what you do", not because I knew WHY it was the right thing to do. When neighbours had litters of puppies or kittens, my first reaction was "awwwwwww", not :yell: (as it is now). I didn't know better then...and why should I have? I was a new pet owner...I just did what others around me did...it seemed pretty straightforward and I had no reason to go seeking alternate opinions.

Just because WE know this stuff (now) doesn't mean we can reasonably expect everyone else to. It's simply not realistic.

I know it gets super-tiring saying the same thing over and over...for US...but for other visitors here, it may be the first time they've ever heard "the speech". If it's delivered with an honest intent to help and inform, people are way more likely to hear it. If we give "the speech"with the (however thinly veiled) intent to tell someone they're an idiot and a terrible pet owner, well...they're probably going to think "go to hell". And may not come across another potentially excellent resource like this forum.

I have to say this...there are so many people here who I admire greatly and do so much incredible work on behalf of animals that I could never even dream of doing myself, and who I generally think are pretty awesome people:grouphug:...but sometimes the replies I read that are given to new posters about matters of S/N, or breeding etc...well frankly it puts a very sour taste in my mouth, and makes me very uncomfortable, and well...a bit ashamed to be honest.

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 09:55 AM
Why should they know better?

Because infos are all over , and very easy to access. Take for example a certain thread ... shouldn't the owner have ask her vet (or anywhere on the net) what could happen to have an intact male and an intact female in the same house BEFORE adopting 2 large dogs from different sex and not have them neutered / spayed ? Why is it too difficult to think things ahead of time ?

For crying out loud , I do research before buying a $100 vacuum !

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 10:05 AM
Because infos are all over , and very easy to access. Take for example a certain thread ... shouldn't the owner have ask her vet (or anywhere on the net) what could happen to have an intact male and an intact female in the same house BEFORE adopting 2 large dogs from different sex and not have them neutered / spayed ?



They did ask...here...maybe a bit too late, but they're asking now :shrug:

As for research ahead of time...yeah, maybe it would have been a good idea...but they were probably basing their decision to have a male and female in the house, with the intention of breeding, on what they've seen other people do or what they saw in their own homes growing up :shrug: I was totally winging it at one point with my pets...monkey see, monkey do...it doesn't make me a bad person, just uneducated at the time. Now I'm a research fanatic, but I wasn't always :2cents:

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 10:26 AM
I happen to agree with Bendy. When I first came to this website, I wasn't very happy. I was actually feeling stupid and like a horrible pet owner. Then, as I was reading more, I started to get to know people and it was making sense. when you guys see the same stupid questions over and over - you must feel frustrated and hopeless (.".oh, great, here comes another one..") but the truth is that although I am a smart person and consider myself well-educated and knowledgeable about animals - I had NO CLUE how much info is out there! And how much suffering, an what really goes on... I never asked the questions simply because it was never in my mind. I never questioned where these cuties at the pet shop come from, and what conditions their parents are kept in etc... It boggles the mind once you are EXPOSED to it, but until then - its like an ostrich, head in the sand!
I only know all of this and am aware of what goes on and why because I stuck around long enough.
I am not saying that ya'all should sugar-coat it, but a bitter pill is hard to swallow and when a regular person (not a troll) feels under attack - they will turn and walk away and our words will fall on def ears or, rather, blind eye... :shrug:
JMHO

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 11:51 AM
And if they're not trolls? If they're just someone who's misinformed but actually cares about their pet, not knowing (because they haven't been educated) that their actions/decisions may not be in their pet's best interests? I think if someone suspects a poster is a troll, they should refrain from replying all together. If they don't ignore, I think they should park the hostility at the door and provide helpful information. :2cents:

I know I for one have learned tons of information on Pets. There is always room to grow and learn.

To be honest with you, and even though there is plenty of information out there on spay and neutering, over-population, gas chambers, lethal injections and the other mulitiple ways of destroying lives..if you don't ask questions, then alot of people really don't know.

Animals are 'property' in the eyes of the law. Because of this, we can avoid responsibility because property has a decreased value once purchased. You can dispose and do whatever you want with it, even though it lives and breaths. Until this mentality is convinced otherwise, people will still purchase from petstores, reproduce these creatures for profit or for the thrill of it without thinking about the consequences.

How about the costs of spay and neutering? Why is it that as important as this is, the medical community does not participate in trying to lower their darn prices to make it more accessible? The answer: Greed. Again - money is the nasty common denominator.

There are many campaigns out there to enlighten the public but again nothing that is more 'in your face'. Where are the billboards? I mean clothing companies splash half clad women on billboards to get the public's attention...where are the animal welfare campaigns? Why is it the animal food companies not trying to help out by putting a tiny bit of their profits towards educating the public? Greed.

It is going to take many many more years to educate. I fear we may not be around to see it. Our only hope is to let our children know so that they can pick up the slack and keep plugging away.

Great thread.:thumbs up

Why should they know better? I'm being serious! I considered myself to be a well-educated person AND an animal lover...but I still got a dog from a byb. I got my pets spayed/neutered because "that's what you do", not because I knew WHY it was the right thing to do. When neighbours had litters of puppies or kittens, my first reaction was "awwwwwww", not :yell: (as it is now). I didn't know better then...and why should I have? I was a new pet owner...I just did what others around me did...it seemed pretty straightforward and I had no reason to go seeking alternate opinions.

Just because WE know this stuff (now) doesn't mean we can reasonably expect everyone else to. It's simply not realistic.

I know it gets super-tiring saying the same thing over and over...for US...but for other visitors here, it may be the first time they've ever heard "the speech". If it's delivered with an honest intent to help and inform, people are way more likely to hear it. If we give "the speech"with the (however thinly veiled) intent to tell someone they're an idiot and a terrible pet owner, well...they're probably going to think "go to hell". And may not come across another potentially excellent resource like this forum.

I have to say this...there are so many people here who I admire greatly and do so much incredible work on behalf of animals that I could never even dream of doing myself, and who I generally think are pretty awesome people:grouphug:...but sometimes the replies I read that are given to new posters about matters of S/N, or breeding etc...well frankly it puts a very sour taste in my mouth, and makes me very uncomfortable, and well...a bit ashamed to be honest.

I happen to agree with Bendy. When I first came to this website, I wasn't very happy. I was actually feeling stupid and like a horrible pet owner. Then, as I was reading more, I started to get to know people and it was making sense. when you guys see the same stupid questions over and over - you must feel frustrated and hopeless (.".oh, great, here comes another one..") but the truth is that although I am a smart person and consider myself well-educated and knowledgeable about animals - I had NO CLUE how much info is out there! And how much suffering, an what really goes on... I never asked the questions simply because it was never in my mind. I never questioned where these cuties at the pet shop come from, and what conditions their parents are kept in etc... It boggles the mind once you are EXPOSED to it, but until then - its like an ostrich, head in the sand!
I only know all of this and am aware of what goes on and why because I stuck around long enough.
I am not saying that ya'all should sugar-coat it, but a bitter pill is hard to swallow and when a regular person (not a troll) feels under attack - they will turn and walk away and our words will fall on def ears or, rather, blind eye... :shrug:
JMHO

To sum it up... education is key, but so is being tactful. This thread had taken a completely different turn, but has raised an important point: our message will no doubt fall on deaf ears if we do not reply in a polite manner. How many threads are closed because it escalates out of control? I am a new member here, and to be honest have considered leaving several times because of the hostility that comes across on the board. Sometimes it feels like a group of teenage girls and boys with the lack of maturity and name-calling and it gets old real quick. :shrug: That being said, I understand 110% where the frustration comes from when you are as passionate as most of us are about these issues and keep seeing the same ol' scenario coming up again and again and again.

Certainly I have learned much more since joining Pets and did not know near the amount of information I did now until joining. I certainly think that increasingly it is becoming more common for people to spay/neuter their pets and look at rescuing instead.

We have all made mistakes - I am not trying to point anyone's out - heck I said myself I purchased a dog from a BYB and had no idea at the time that it was "bad" in anyway. As far as I was concerned, that's what people did - looked in their local newspaper and purchased a pup - not questioning anything. I always had a bad feeling about where pet store puppies/kittens came from, but to be honest it was probably something we never did more so because of the horrendous cost they charge for a mutt.

Education is the answer here. I agree that the $$ vets charge to spay/neuter is outrageously over-priced and surely deters some pet owners from fixing their pets. I know that there is programs available for those who really can not afford it for low-cost spay/neuters. It's unfortunate that the greed of major pet corporations gets in the way of what's best for our pets whether that is nutrition wise, health wise, etc. Really, it's no different than for us humans... we can not rely on organizations like the USDA, FDA, or CFIA to ensure human food safety when they are funded by the company who is trying to promote their product. We need to educate ourselves, do our research, and read the labels and not just assume they have our best interests at heart.

I guess we really can't assume people know better. I like to suggest to people who are considering breeding their pets to volunteer at their local shelter. What better way to become informed of the tragic reality then to witness first-hand the sheer number of pets that are surrendered and PTS everyday, all for a BS reason? Or return endless messages of people who can't keep their pets for a garbage reason, have a litter of puppies because of stupidity, etc.? It doesn't take long to realize how ****ty the situation is, and start to feel disgusted at how us humans treat our companions. And once you start to become informed, I think you begin to appreciate that good information is everywhere - you may have to dig a little deep for it, but it is out there. It's not an excuse anymore that there is not good information out there - it's literally at our fingertips, even if yes you do have to type a few words into the google search bar. Probably we need groups to start having a more aggressive approach towards conveying the message - along the lines of PETA, who I disagree with for several reasons, but have to admit... they get their message across loud and clear. (And before anyone freaks, I am not saying advertising naked women or graphic pictures to get a message across is necessary!).

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 11:58 AM
I can't find my original post, but anyways.

If you are one to research to ensure you are making the correct decisions, then you will do so and are probably well educated in whatever endeavor you try. Those I think can be taught and will take in different opinions.

Then there are others who will do what the heck they please, doesn't matter what is "frowned upon" in society, doesn't matter how nice you are. If you don't agree with what they want to hear, then being nice isn't going to make one bit of difference.

I really believe that those who are research types will take in what members are saying and don't respond negatively back and we don't respond back negatively to them. However those who jump back at members' posts fit into those "who will do the heck they want" category, we do jump on their backs.

And then you get into senior members attacking other senior members and to me that is something to be ashamed of. That really makes us look like we are :crazy:, then things get off topic.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Yes it is entirely possible for someone to not have all the information they need,,,mind you what information is available today as opposed to 5-10yrs ago is hugely different. I do find it harder to believe that you can go anywhere without knowing atleast a little something about the need to spay/neuter. It is all over tv,papers,etc now adays,,for years Bob Barker ended the price is right with a plea to spay/neuter your pets..but even so,,ok you don't know all the pro's and cons about the topic..don't you think you should find out before
deciding to breed?

Then we have the obvious Trolls,,those are the ones you will usually see a thread get nasty then closed. When you're seeing senior members who rarely say boo to a goose responding a little less than friendly,i might suggest to other senior members who would like to discuss it with them..pm the person,,they more than likely have a very good reason for the way they're posting. Sometimes it's like putting a puzzle together,,doesn't look like much until you see more of the picture.

ancientgirl
September 30th, 2010, 12:20 PM
I am also one of those that really never knew anything about what it really takes to be a responsible pet owner until I found this site and it prompted me to do more research out there on my own.

I had two cats in high school, both of which were outside, and both died as a result of a dog attack. The last one had been killed just days after she gave birth. I was clueless, and I have to say so where my parents. They both grew up in Cuba, and their families had farms, where dogs and cats were kept outside and spaying and neutering wasn't the norm.

When I got Vlad he was a little wee thing, so I came here and found out about the benefits of neutering.

I think many people just don't want to do the research and are plain lazy, and yet others live by what they observed their parents doing. Saying you don't have the money to spend when there are many low cost alternatives isn't an excuse. I could have taken mine to get S&N for $20 at the animal shelter, but at the time I had the money and wanted them to be at the vets office which has 24/7 staff.

There are so many things I see and read that make me think, "This is the 21st century! We are living in a George Jetson society, and yet some people seem to be stuck in Fred Flintstone's world."

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Then there are others who will do what the heck they please, doesn't matter what is "frowned upon" in society, doesn't matter how nice you are. If you don't agree with what they want to hear, then being nice isn't going to make one bit of difference.



This is such a good point, L4H. Sometimes I think people have their minds made up and there is no convincing them eitheir way. No matter how many statistics, articles, etc. you provide, their mind is already made up and there is no changing it.

Yes it is entirely possible for someone to not have all the information they need,,,mind you what information is available today as opposed to 5-10yrs ago is hugely different. I do find it harder to believe that you can go anywhere without knowing atleast a little something about the need to spay/neuter. It is all over tv,papers,etc now adays,,for years Bob Barker ended the price is right with a plea to spay/neuter your pets..but even so,,ok you don't know all the pro's and cons about the topic..don't you think you should find out before
deciding to breed?



This is my thoughts too, aslan. I agree that you have to dig a little deep to find information, I think it is readily available. We have a wealth of information (some good, some bad) at our fingertips, if one chooses to look.


I think many people just don't want to do the research and are plain lazy, and yet others live by what they observed their parents doing. Saying you don't have the money to spend when there are many low cost alternatives isn't an excuse. I could have taken mine to get S&N for $20 at the animal shelter, but at the time I had the money and wanted them to be at the vets office which has 24/7 staff.

There are so many things I see and read that make me think, "This is the 21st century! We are living in a George Jetson society, and yet some people seem to be stuck in Fred Flintstone's world."

Love this quote! :laughing: I think people do become lazy, or just follow what has always been done and don't question it. I think many people who are buying dogs from BYB's, pet stores, etc. or feeding their pet crappy food, really don't think they are doing anything wrong, they don't know any better. So certainly education is the key here. Still when it comes to spaying and neutering, I have talked to people who do know better, but they don't have it done because it's too expensive, or they never get around to it, or they just can't bear to see their males dogs testicles removed, etc. etc.

driver8
September 30th, 2010, 12:42 PM
I think what's happening is so many more people have internet access and are using it to find places like this to ask questions. You're seeing them more and probably so are other sites. I know the medical type sites I read have the same thing - more people asking questions online.


The key is the "hook". Getting people to stay.

If you decide right off the hop that this person is "going to do what they want anyway" - you lose an opportunity. Because maybe they will continue to do what they want, for a while and then learn. Or maybe they will continue to do what they want on that issue, stay here and learn about some other aspect of pet care.

If they post their initial question and you don't approve of how they are raising their pet, and show it--- Responses that start with Ummmm and then a disagreement, or just plain old blunt disdain for their practice, for example - they will leave. They'll think poorly of this forum and the people here. Then they won't read any other threads or talk to people in the forum, get to know the people here and learn more. That's really too bad.

I've seen a lot of newbies that get less welcoming responses to their initial question and then don't post again. And I haven't been here that long.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 12:54 PM
usually you'll get a less than freindly response if,,,,you just joined a pro spay/neuter forum and start a thread titled something like,,,is it almost time,,,my dog is oozing green stuff,,how do i get my male to mount my female,,,i am totally serious these are actual threads that have been posted here..the first two,, are totally immediate vet attention not something we can handle..the last well being a pro spay/neuter forum few members would know how to help that one out and those that do aren't really going to be willing.

There are a couple threads that i can think of on this forum off the top of my head dealing totally with information on breeding,,pro's and cons of spay neuter,,etc..the members that on a daily basis that are cleaning up after the people that are still not having their pets fixed are plain old tired..it's easy to say,,take a break then...sometimes they're the last stop for an animal before it is destroyed,,so they can't..

ancientgirl
September 30th, 2010, 12:56 PM
or they just can't bear to see their males dogs testicles removed, etc. etc.

OMG, this excuse drives me crazy! I recently met a guy online that had two Sharpei, both un-neutered. Why? He didn't want to break their spirit.

Huh? That to me is the dumbest excuse ever.

driver8
September 30th, 2010, 12:58 PM
No kidding! I have a neutered male kitty - BELIEVE ME, he has lots of spirit!!!! :D

ownedbycats
September 30th, 2010, 12:59 PM
I think people come here asking questions because there is so much information out there, it is almost too much. That's why I came here. I wanted to know what other people had chosen and why (about many things).
You can search spaying and neutering and you find articles saying spay/neuter as early as possible, don't because it's bad for the animals health, do spay/neuter but wait x amount of time. It's confusing, you have no idea what articles are reliable, what are recent and what's old. Which point of view should you listen to?:shrug:

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:00 PM
No kidding! I have a neutered male kitty - BELIEVE ME, he has lots of spirit!!!! :D

:laughing::laughing: yup i have an 110lb golden who when the humans playfight,,yup his spirit is right there,,,usually humping along to the theme of the loan ranger...

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 01:02 PM
usually you'll get a less than freindly response if,,,,you just joined a pro spay/neuter forum and start a thread titled something like,,,is it almost time,,,my dog is oozing green stuff,,how do i get my male to mount my female





Why does the response have to be unfriendly? It's possible to educate without snark. Snark doesn't help anything or anybody.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:04 PM
Which point of view should you listen to?:shrug:

now remember this is my opinion,,,,i would listen to my vets any day when is comes to spay/neuter over strangers on a website. I'm not talking pet nutrition cause we all know we have the most knowledgable people on that subject right here.:D

but seriously,,a poster comes in,,,,asks about breeding,,they're informed most here are pro spay/neuter,,the OP isn't always either getting the fact we can't help them,,,or they get mad 'cause we won't.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:06 PM
Why does the response have to be unfriendly? It's possible to educate without snark. Snark doesn't help anything or anybody.

I didn't say it had to be,,,i said that is usually when you will get an unfriendly response...As for why that happens i answered that,,the info is already on the forum and sometimes people have just had enough..

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 01:12 PM
I didn't say it had to be,,,i said that is usually when you will get an unfriendly response...As for why that happens i answered that,,the info is already on the forum and sometimes people have just had enough..

I can completely appreciate their exhaustion and exasperation; I know I couldn't do half the work they do without having a completely breakdown. But if they've had enough of answering the same stupid questions, then I honestly think they shouldn't say anything at all. A response of :wall::wall::yell::yell::yuck: what kind of moron are you, duh, neuter your dog ? is going to = a new poster saying "to hell with you" (literally or they'll just leave). Then we've lost them. Lost the chance to educate or at least have a civil discussion about it and give them food for thought. Rather than opening their eyes and bringing them on the side of reason (and thus hopefully resulting in one less litter of pups/kits), they bug off and carry on doing exactly what they were doing before...adding one more litter for our overtaxed rescuers to deal with. We could be inadvertently contributing to (or at least really not helping) the problem. I don't think people realize how much influence they can have on new posters, both good and bad.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Then we have the obvious Trolls,,those are the ones you will usually see a thread get nasty then closed.

They get closed because members have taken the bait. If it's so obvious, it doesn't take long before a mod closes the thread, even if it doesn't get nasty.

If you know you can't help, or if an OP won't listen, why bother responding at all :shrug:? Give someone else a chance to do it tactfully, so the thread doesn't get closed for other newbies lurking/seeking info. No one is forcing anyone to reply :shrug:.

Personally, I've noticed two senior members begin to make real efforts to educate with their replies instead of letting loose their frustrations. I've been so impressed because their message does come across loud and clear and gives others not so knowledgeable something to consider. Isn't that a better option than just blasting away at someone?

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 01:14 PM
They get closed because members have taken the bait. If it's so obvious, it doesn't take long before a mod closes the thread, even if it doesn't get nasty.

If you know you can't help, or if an OP won't listen, why bother responding at all :shrug:? Give someone else a chance to do it tactfully, so the thread doesn't get closed for other newbies lurking/seeking info. No one is forcing anyone to reply :shrug:.

Personally, I've noticed two senior members begin to make real efforts to educate with their replies instead of letting loose their frustrations. I've been so impressed because their message does come across loud and clear and gives others not so knowledgeable something to consider. Isn't that a better option than just blasting away at someone?

+1 :thumbs up

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:19 PM
We could be inadvertently contributing to (or at least really not helping) the problem.

That would be so unfortunate. This isn't just a forum big on members who support spay/neuter (not a spay/neuter forum), it's a forum made up of many members who come here to share their knowledge and experiences to help others, which in turn, help their pets. Is that not the end result we all have in common?

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:20 PM
They get closed because members have taken the bait. If it's so obvious, it doesn't take long before a mod closes the thread, even if it doesn't get nasty.

If you know you can't help, or if an OP won't listen, why bother responding at all :shrug:? Give someone else a chance to do it tactfully, so the thread doesn't get closed for other newbies lurking/seeking info. No one is forcing anyone to reply :shrug:.

Personally, I've noticed two senior members begin to make real efforts to educate with their replies instead of letting loose their frustrations. I've been so impressed because their message does come across loud and clear and gives others not so knowledgeable something to consider. Isn't that a better option than just blasting away at someone?

yup sometimes things just get the better of people,,like playing the telephone game,,i said,,then she said then,,,blah blah..thus i've been staying out of the threads as of late..

I've also notice a couple of senior members being greatly involved in those threads that normally aren't and they're venting their frustrations. Guess it depends on how people are feeling at the time, how frustrated they are,,etc. I geuss some people would rather say what they're thinking to the person than blah blah about it later..

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 01:22 PM
but seriously,,a poster comes in,,,,asks about breeding,,they're informed most here are pro spay/neuter,,the OP isn't always either getting the fact we can't help them,,,or they get mad 'cause we won't.

Or another member jumps all over a senior member because they didn't like the answer the senior member gave the OP.

bendyfoot
September 30th, 2010, 01:22 PM
That would be so unfortunate. This isn't just a forum big on members who support spay/neuter (not a spay/neuter forum), it's a forum made up of many members who come here to share their knowledge and experiences to help others, which in turn, help their pets. Is that not the end result we all have in common?

+1 :laughing:

(Ok, I'll just let you talk from now on :p)

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:22 PM
Is that not the end result we all have in common?

i would most definately hope so,,,,unfortunately it's also a forum made up of different personalities and not everyone is going to agree with everyone 100% of the time.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:24 PM
Guess it depends on how people are feeling at the time, how frustrated they are,,etc. I geuss some people would rather say what they're thinking to the person than blah blah about it later..

Are you saying that some members use these threads as a way to off-load? To vent their frustrations? Maybe we could start up a thread similar to the tjt but it would be a "rant" thread to help people decompress. I don't think a thread opened up by a misinformed person is the place to do it :shrug:.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Or another member jumps all over a senior member because they didn't like the answer the senior member gave the OP.

I haven't seen that, or I don't remember :rolleyes:, but, that would be very unfortunate as well. It's ok to have different opinions but, it's never ok to show disrespect because of that. Not to senior members, not to new ones either.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:29 PM
Are you saying that some members use these threads as a way to off-load? To vent their frustrations? Maybe we could start up a thread similar to the tjt but it would be a "rant" thread to help people decompress. I don't think a thread opened up by a misinformed person is the place to do it :shrug:.

no that's not what i'm saying,,,i'm saying sometimes we as humans,,our emotions get the better of us..i can't even imagine how certain members feel with umpteen animals and someone coming in blah blah about their pregnant pet,,or my dog did such and such, should i re-home or put them down.. I personally have been staying out of those threads unless specifically asked by someone to say something.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Ok, let me try this. You work at a doggie daycare and deal with the adolescent group. You're exhausted at the end of the day. You come home to your own adolescent dog and he's acting up because you're too tired to deal with him. Will yelling at him frustrated, "you're such an @ss" teach him anything?

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 01:34 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again : free speech !

sorry guys but I'll never change the way I post. If some don't like it , don't read it , or reply to me nasty , as you like , I don't care. I will NOT sugarcoat anything I have to say. And I don't think I usually start off rude , I just go straight to the point that's all. If then the OP asked questions , I will gladly reply and help. If the OP gets rude , I'm sorry but I will reply same as I'm being replied to. Plain and simple. :shrug:

If I reply in 10 threads where I give advices or welcome new members , and then post in one thread where I'm a bit ... straight to the point , it's not the end of the world. I'm kinda put off by people who will tell ME I'm rude once in a while , when those same people are barely posting , barely helping in threads. They never offer help or sympathy to anyone but will jump right in other threads just to tell senior members they're not "nice enough". The virgin Marie attitude is getting on my nerves. :shrug:

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:37 PM
no and i didn't say it would,,i never said that the stuff that goes on in the threads is right either. what i said was sometimes stuff happens. Now if i was working in an office all day with a doorknob and came home and G was acting stupid,,,yup i'd tell her so. How an animal thinks or behaves is different than how a human behaves. People have different methods of training their pets,,we may not all think the other persons is the best way,,not everyone is going to feed their dogs the same food. And not everyone is going to re-act to something the way others think they should.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:38 PM
But Frenchy, getting straight to the point is an admirable trait. There's nothing wrong with that but it helps if there's at least a short explanation to go along with it to get people to start thinking.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:39 PM
Ok, let me try this.

:laughing::laughing: now if i didn't know you and i was in a crappy mood i could take that like you're talking down to me..:D

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 01:40 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again : free speech !

sorry guys but I'll never change the way I post. If some don't like it , don't read it , or reply to me nasty , as you like , I don't care. I will NOT sugarcoat anything I have to say. And I don't think I usually start off rude , I just go straight to the point that's all. If then the OP asked questions , I will gladly reply and help. If the OP gets rude , I'm sorry but I will reply same as I'm being replied to. Plain and simple. :shrug:

If I reply in 10 threads where I give advices or welcome new members , and then post in one thread where I'm a bit ... straight to the point , it's not the end of the world. I'm kinda put off by people who will tell ME I'm rude once in a while , when those same people are barely posting , barely helping in threads. They never offer help or sympathy to anyone but will jump right in other threads just to tell senior members they're not "nice enough". The virgin Marie attitude is getting on my nerves. :shrug:

:thumbs up That's what I love about you, Frenchy :lovestruck:

I am also a person of very little words, normally because I have a lurking boss, get to the point, that's the kind of conversation I like to have.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:41 PM
Now if i was working in an office all day with a doorknob and came home and G was acting stupid,,,yup i'd tell her so.

But what if she did something, not on purpose, that annoyed the hell out of you?

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 01:42 PM
I agree, not everyone will see eye to eye 100% of the time. Having said that, if you don't like someone - nobody is forcing you to talk to them. You are free to post your opinion and share the knowledge, but not one of us here was born with the knowledge, it comes when you bother to do the research. And if you begin your research with a google question - our site pops up alot... so granted, people come on here, but not always bother reading the rules or the description of the site. I, for one never read the rules, I came and asked my question. :laughing:
So I think having some restraint and maintaining a cool composure when answering even the most stupid questions may lead to the OP to stick around and find out more and eventually become a part of this comminuty. BTW, this is an AWESOME community I think!:thumbs up

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 01:43 PM
But Frenchy, getting straight to the point is an admirable trait. There's nothing wrong with that but it helps if there's at least a short explanation to go along with it to get people to start thinking.

and we usually do give that short explanation but I'm no wikipedia :shrug:

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:43 PM
:laughing::laughing: now if i didn't know you and i was in a crappy mood i could take that like you're talking down to me..:D

You're taller than I am so I'd be talking up at you :p. Seriously, you do know me well enough that it's easier for me to explain things if I over-simplify them....makes it easier for me to understand myself too :laughing:.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:45 PM
You're taller than I am so I'd be talking up at you :p. Seriously, you do know me well enough that it's easier for me to explain things if I over-simplify them....makes it easier for me to understand myself too :laughing:.


and i know where you live...

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:47 PM
...but not one of us here was born with the knowledge, it comes when you bother to do the research.

And the results of research are available because someone is bothering to teach :). It's a cycle...one learns, then teaches, another learns, then teaches, and so on.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:50 PM
maybe i'm being dense but i really don't think most threads start off with someone being rude,,usually the usual blah blah,,,then it starts to change durring its course.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 01:51 PM
The point is it can be very difficult when you are as passionate about these topics as many memebrs are to not want to yell at someone when you hear the same old scenario over and over again. That being said, of course no one is going to stick around if members are being rude and disrespectful to them... we lose an opportunity to educate that person and maybe help make a ****ty situation better. It's best if you want to rant and rave to create your own thread where people can choose to come and listen and are not singled out (which is what I think I tried to do here but it completely has spun into something else :rolleyes:).

Which point of view should you listen to?:shrug:

There is so much information out there it can be completely exhausating trying to figure out which you should listen to. IMO, the best POV to listen to is the one you form yourself. For me, I like to form my opinions by looking at several sources, not just one forum, one book, one vet etc.

This forum is for all things Pets... it happens that alot of members do not have knowledge in regards to breeding two animals, raising a litter, etc. I see no problem with referring a member to somewhere else if they come on here seeking that information - in a polite manner. I also see no problem with posting a link or referring them to a thread that has information on good reasons to spay/neuter your pet. A reputable breeder who knows what they are doing would not come to the internet on a forum asking members for information of this nature - we can probably guess that the person is not a reputable breeder; however, that is no reason to call them names, be disrespectful, etc.

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 01:51 PM
maybe i'm being dense but i really don't think most threads start off with someone being rude,,usually the usual blah blah,,,then it starts to change durring its course.

yep , totally agree.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:51 PM
And sometimes it's overkill :shrug:.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:53 PM
yep , totally agree.
:grouphug:
And sometimes it overkill :shrug:.

yup sometimes it is. it's like when you're talking to someone and their not listening,,sometimes you raise your voice (that yelling thing we taught you)...sometimes people on here feel like they're not being heard i guess.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 01:58 PM
That makes me think of my mother when I was a teenager :rolleyes:. If she had a yelling fit, I simply tuned out. I could only focus on the fact that she sounded like a lunatic and not on the words that she was actually yelling :shrug:.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 01:58 PM
But what if she did something, not on purpose, that annoyed the hell out of you?

just saw this,,heck yes,especially around pms time,,,you can tell in person if i'm irritated,,,for lord sake don't push it,,especially if there are rubber chickens around.:evil:

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 01:59 PM
I think we will always have members that will have the patience and those that won't simply because they are FED UP picking up after people....
Which is how life is...
Yep, LP, if I didn't stick around - I wouldn't have learned all the oooooodles of info and wouln't have been able to pass it on to my friends and family for one... So if 3 less pups eat crappy food because I researched it and know what to recommend - thats thanks to you guys who put the info on here for me to read!

BenMax
September 30th, 2010, 02:02 PM
Ok let me give an example of something I learned about 3 years ago that I did not know, would not even think of googling, nor ask questions about: Gas Chambers in Quebec.

Even though I am very active in rescue, consider myself somewhat animal welfare 'savvy', know the laws to an extent, go on missions, rescues, etc....I never knew that gassing, shooting, be-heading and electrocution were still ways of euthanasia that is legal. It was something that I stumbled upon when I went to pick up 50+ dogs at midnight. It was a complete eye opener. I was speachless, confused, baffled, and definately under educated.

I have since learned many things about this subject. Why it is legal, why it still happens, and again, education keeps coming to the forefront. People don't know, and only when something relevant comes up, are they aware of the situation.

I am all for educating. I am. I wish I personally always had my 'happy hat' on to convey some information without being judgemental. At times it comes out right...and others not so.

Guilty as charged.

luckypenny
September 30th, 2010, 02:02 PM
,,,you can tell in person if i'm irritated,,,

Ahhh, yes, in person you can tell. But this is the internet. I don't think most people come on here to purposefully irritate members with their questions.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Ahhh, yes, in person you can tell. But this is the internet. I don't think most people come on here to purposefully irritate members with their questions.

no but it does happen and we were talking about would i re-act to g if she didn't do it knowingly...thus the in person comment.

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Ok let me give an example of something I learned about 3 years ago that I did not know, would not even think of googling, nor ask questions about: Gas Chambers in Quebec.

Even though I am very active in rescue, consider myself somewhat animal welfare 'savvy', know the laws to an extent, go on missions, rescues, etc....I never knew that gassing, shooting, be-heading and electrocution were still ways of euthanasia that is legal. It was something that I stumbled upon when I went to pick up 50+ dogs at midnight. It was a complete eye opener. I was speachless, confused, baffled, and definately under educated.

I have since learned many things about this subject. Why it is legal, why it still happens, and again, education keeps coming to the forefront. People don't know, and only when something relevant comes up, are they aware of the situation.

I am all for educating. I am. I wish I personally always had my 'happy hat' on to convey some information without being judgemental. At times it comes out right...and others not so.

Guilty as charged.

BM, you are one of the bravest, strongest people I have ever had the priviledge of knowing, doing what you do day in and day out.
But if you don,t share that knowledge with us, with me as an average Jane (or Jennie) I will never know!
I used to snap at people on the forum. I sometimes still do. But one time it got me so nervous and frustrated, I was physically shaking... so that I now choose to stay out if I can't contribute. Thats about it. :shrug:

BenMax
September 30th, 2010, 02:15 PM
BM, you are one of the bravest, strongest people I have ever had the priviledge of knowing, doing what you do day in and day out.
But if you don,t share that knowledge with us, with me as an average Jane (or Jennie) I will never know!
I used to snap at people on the forum. I sometimes still do. But one time it got em so nervous and frustrated that I now choose to stay out if I can't contribute. Thats about it. :shrug:

I absolutely agree JennieV. My point was this: I never even thought of googling or investigating such a subject. I stumbled upon it.

What I am trying to say is that not everyone knows how or they take the easy way to ask questions without exploring or researching the subject matter. Internet is made easy and forums even easier.

I am not saying I am an angel in my responses (heck NO!) but I do understand sometimes about taking a step back and then replying. However, after a few 'nudges' about spaying and neutering, and if the OP does not receive the responses well.....well then I say it's a free for all in the sense that all the advise given was for nothing. Do they deserve respect and everyone bending backwards...I think not.:shrug:

People get frustrated in sharing good information, and then members flipping out on them, or the OP takes the reins and it is the members that get reprimanded. I think this is what pisses members off.

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 02:15 PM
maybe i'm being dense but i really don't think most threads start off with someone being rude,,usually the usual blah blah,,,then it starts to change durring its course.

That's what I think too.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 02:21 PM
I absolutely agree JennieV. My point was this: I never even thought of googling or investigating such a subject. I stumbled upon it.

What I am trying to say is that not everyone knows how or they take the easy way to ask questions without exploring or researching the subject matter. Internet is made easy and forums even easier.

I am not saying I am an angel in my responses (heck NO!) but I do understand sometimes about taking a step back and then replying. However, after a few 'nudges' about spaying and neutering, and if the OP does not receive the responses well.....well then I say it's a free for all in the sense that all the advise given was for nothing. Do they deserve respect and everyone bending backwards...I think not.:shrug:

People get frustrated in sharing good information, and then members flipping out on them, or the OP takes the reins and it is the members that get reprimanded. I think this is what pisses members off.

I could not agree more... sometimes people come on here looking for us to give them the answer they want to hear or to 'sugar-coat' it. Why should we? Yes, we can be polite but to the point as well... we are here to educate people and tell them about the realities of some of the harsh tragedies in the world not help them keep living in their happy - rainbows - kittens - floofy - fluffly world.

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 02:24 PM
not help them keep living in their happy - rainbows - kittens - floofy - fluffly world.

yep , sometimes some OP/members would need to be redirected at the www.carebears.com website.

or www.everythingIdoisok.com

:cool:

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 02:26 PM
:laughing::laughing: Frenchy!!

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 02:26 PM
yep , sometimes some OP/members would need to be redirected at the www.carebears.com website.

or www.everythingIdoisok.com

:cool:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

hey i like rainbows...:D

BenMax
September 30th, 2010, 02:26 PM
yep , sometimes some OP/members would need to be redirected at the www.carebears.com website.

or www.everythingIdoisok.com

:cool:

OMG Frenchy...you are killing me over here.:laughing:

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 02:27 PM
yep , sometimes some OP/members would need to be redirected at the www.carebears.com website.

or www.everythingIdoisok.com

:cool:

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 02:28 PM
ok am i the only one who can't stop laughing at that...

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 02:29 PM
:party::cloud9::clown::cat::whistle:

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 02:34 PM
:laughing::laughing: the carebears.com link actually works...

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 02:35 PM
OMG they do have a website / forum !

http://www.planetcarebears.com/

note to self : will sooooo use this one in future threads ... :evil:

:laughing: just kidding .... or am I ? :cool:

JennieV
September 30th, 2010, 02:39 PM
OMG... you gonna make me piddle my pants! :crazy:

14+kitties
September 30th, 2010, 03:11 PM
It comes down to the all mighty dollar. As long as people are making tons of money breeding their cockapoos, goldendoodles, whackamoles, whatever, they are going to do it. Where else can you make a bunch of money really quickly for doing absolutely zilch? :shrug: Who needs mentors? Who cares if the female dies having those puppies or contracts mastitis afterward and gets very ill? They have puppies! They can keep one and start over. Who needs anyone to show/teach/whatever .......... until something happens and they panic. Whoa!! Then it's time to worry. Who needs to do research.
Are there more people thinking that way? I don't think so. I think there are more pets now than in the past. Then there's the group that feel s/n before a certain age is harmful for a dog. Fine and dandy. Don't use it as an excuse to breed.
Unfortunately cats are in the same position they have always been in. It's just that there are so many of them due to breeding getting out of hand we notice them more now. Why spend the dollars (again, that almighty dollar) getting Fluffy fixed when it is so much easier to put her outdoors when she is in heat. :wall: So what if she has kittens. We can drop them off somewhere and never give them another thought.
Ok, I think rant is over. Back to the carebears now................

marko
September 30th, 2010, 03:52 PM
I've said this before MANY times and i'm truly impressed that some members are trying harder. :highfive: :goodvibes:

There is NEVER any good reason to be rude on this forum...or any other forum.

Letting your passion get the best of you to the point of replying with bad attitude.... honestly, is bad for this forum, bad for our community, bad for the other members, mods and me one of the Admins. It makes this forum feel unfriendly. It is the exact opposite of the goal of the vast majority of members.

I realize that many members are in rescue and have seen much bad. But really, so what? Why should witnessing bad give people the right to be rude and snarky to people coming here seeking help in earnest? They need education, not attitude.

The original question here was how can people breed animals in this day and age...

The answer is DIRT simple. There is a 40:1 ratio of guests to members and the guests need education. They don't need a lecture, rudeness, attitude etc. They need education. If the education is tactful the member might stay.
If it is not tactful, then those less than tactful posts have chased this person away. Some members don't care about that and it makes me sad and frustrated.

If someone asked me what my single goal would be for the forum, it would be for our forum to be the friendliest pet forum on the Net. THAT would get more people to join and THEN we could tactfully educate way more people.

anyway I'm SUPER glad to see that more members are trying harder.
Many many thanks :grouphug:

BenMax
September 30th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Marko taking into account that you know who those rescue members are, perhaps education can be given to the admin mods as to a degree of understanding. It goes 2 ways.

marko
September 30th, 2010, 04:14 PM
I don't understand what you mean BM.

Have you ever seen a rude post by Mods or Admin?

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 04:16 PM
I think what BM means is to be more understanding with those members.

On my part , if I'm rude and , a mod / admin calls me on it , I'm fine with it. You guys have a job to do , and I'm big enough to take it. :shrug: I'll "suck it up buttercup" :p

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 04:22 PM
The original question here was how can people breed animals in this day and age...

The answer is DIRT simple. There is a 40:1 ratio of guests to members and the guests need education. They don't need a lecture, rudeness, attitude etc. They need education. If the education is tactful the member might stay.
If it is not tactful, then those less than tactful posts have chased this person away. Some members don't care about that and it makes me sad and frustrated.


I agree 110% that being polite and tactful is the best approach. I find that volunteering in rescue I find myself becoming very angry and frustrated at people in general. That being said, I realize that getting angry goes nowhere to educate others and I try to be very tactful when I reply to posts of this nature on here.

Back to my original post though... while I can appreciate that people may not know where to always find the best information on spaying/neutering, I still think the information is widely available for those who choose to dig even just a little deep... I think simply put, most people do see that many rescues, organizations, etc. are pushing for pets to be spayed/neutered and acknowledge this, but simply are too lazy, won't pay for it, don't care enough, etc. etc.

It's no excuse not to research something just because the information is not stamped across your forehead or sitting smack dab in front of you. :shrug: I get sick of always hearing the excuse that people don't know any better... it's time people learn better and they take some responsibility. We can certainly help people by pointing them in the right direction and sharing our knowledge.

And... with that all being said, I still find it incredibly sad in this day and age the number of people who choose to breed their pets. It's the year 2010... the information and knowledge is there, people are just choosing not to listen to it, read it, etc.

Chris21711
September 30th, 2010, 04:25 PM
That makes me think of my mother when I was a teenager :rolleyes:. If she had a yelling fit, I simply tuned out. I could only focus on the fact that she sounded like a lunatic and not on the words that she was actually yelling :shrug:.

I'm the same, I don't like being yelled at and I won't be yelled at....but I don't suffer fools or $hit disturbers lightly.

OMG they do have a website / forum !

http://www.planetcarebears.com/

note to self : will sooooo use this one in future threads ... :evil:

:laughing: just kidding .... or am I ? :cool:

No you ain't kidding :evil:

marko
September 30th, 2010, 04:31 PM
I'm confused Frenchy, Mods and Admins should be more understanding to rescue members that are rude?

On my part , if I'm rude and , a mod / admin calls me on it , I'm fine with it. You guys have a job to do , and I'm big enough to take it. I'll "suck it up buttercup"

(Just so it's clear I'm only talking in a general way here)
Although you can suck it up, you are not realizing the full effect of a rude post. You may think that your post will be edited/deleted so it's all good and it affected nobody but you....This is FALSE.

If your post is provocative enough, it chases away the OP and leaves them with a crap impression of our community. It likely chases away some guests and keeps lurkers from registering. Every rude post from individual members has an effect on our community, and that effect is bad.

I've said my piece now and I think that's it for me in this thread. I've said the following before many times; Rescuers have hearts of gold.

Frenchy
September 30th, 2010, 04:34 PM
I'm confused Frenchy, Mods and Admins should be more understanding to rescue members that are rude?

I think that's what BM meant.

(Just so it's clear I'm only talking in a general way here)
Although you can suck it up, you are not realizing the full effect of a rude post.

I know I know Marko , for my defense , I think I've toned it down a lot :angel: compared to a few years ago.

marko
September 30th, 2010, 04:45 PM
One last one, we regulars on the forum know there are too many animals in shelters.

But really you are expecting too much from the general population imo. OF COURSE I agree with you personally and I will always spay and neuter and I will tactfully explain this to any poster.

But most people INCLUDING that 40:1 ratio might not share your belief....that's just the way it is. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think people SHOULD know this spay/neuter/ anti breeding info. This is your passion, and my passion but we are in the minority...you have to know that. We are not in the minority when it comes to regulars posting...but when it comes to newbies posting, we are imo.

I'm a big fan of recycling, but do you know how many people throw plastic stuff directly into the garbage. That's BLASPHEMY to me. Everyone should know better....and SO many people don't......There's just too much knowledge for everyone to know and accept what you personally believe to be common knowledge.

So the only good way to solve this problem imo......is through tactful education.

Thx - marko

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 04:47 PM
I know I know Marko , for my defense , I think I've toned it down a lot :angel: compared to a few years ago.

You certainly have.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 05:03 PM
One last one, we regulars on the forum know there are too many animals in shelters.

But really you are expecting too much from the general population imo. OF COURSE I agree with you personally and I will always spay and neuter and I will tactfully explain this to any poster.

But most people INCLUDING that 40:1 ratio might not share your belief....that's just the way it is. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think people SHOULD know this spay/neuter/ anti breeding info. This is your passion, and my passion but we are in the minority...you have to know that. We are not in the minority when it comes to regulars posting...but when it comes to newbies posting, we are imo.

I'm a big fan of recycling, but do you know how many people throw plastic stuff directly into the garbage. That's BLASPHEMY to me. Everyone should know better....and SO many people don't......There's just too much knowledge for everyone to know and accept what you personally believe to be common knowledge.

So the only good way to solve this problem imo......is through tactful education.

Thx - marko

The information is out there and it has been in MY experience that most people who do NOT spay and neuter is not because they do not know anything about the topic, it is because they are too lazy or have a BS excuse not to. And then to boot, come whining when their pet ends up with a litter and get upset when a shelter/SPCA/HS can not take them in.

I don't think I am expecting too much from the general population. I think the general population expects too much from the shelters, HS, etc. to take care of their mess. It's time to hold people accountable for their actions, quit letting them use excuses when most of them know better, and give them correct information if they are misinformed. You don't have to know alot about animals or spayed/neutering in general, besides that it is the only way we can work towards the end of millions of animals being PTS every year.

I have agreed all along that the best way to solve this is to continue to educate people, but I am entitled to rant if I want, and it's been in MY experiences that it is common knowledge, people just choose not to listen to it, read it, etc.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 05:06 PM
I said from the very beginning...



I don't want this thread to turn into a hostile debate back and forth

And all its become is a fricking battle ground. People need to be civil to each other, no matter who they are or what their "status" is here, and quit the bickering, rude remarks, etc.

If it continues please close this thread.

TY.

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 05:08 PM
just did a quick google search under...to spay or not to spay...1,670,000 links came up.

Love4himies
September 30th, 2010, 05:19 PM
The information is out there and it has been in MY experience that most people who do NOT spay and neuter is not because they do not know anything about the topic, it is because they are too lazy or have a BS excuse not to. And then to boot, come whining when their pet ends up with a litter and get upset when a shelter/SPCA/HS can not take them in.

I don't think I am expecting too much from the general population. I think the general population expects too much from the shelters, HS, etc. to take care of their mess. It's time to hold people accountable for their actions, quit letting them use excuses when most of them know better, and give them correct information if they are misinformed. You don't have to know alot about animals or spayed/neutering in general, besides that it is the only way we can work towards the end of millions of animals being PTS every year.

I have agreed all along that the best way to solve this is to continue to educate people, but I am entitled to rant if I want, and it's been in MY experiences that it is common knowledge, people just choose not to listen to it, read it, etc.

Exactly. Spaying/neutering and the fact that there is an overpopulation of pets has been very well publicised.

driver8
September 30th, 2010, 05:23 PM
What's needed is public information campaigns, that's what will make more of a difference than snark on a message board - snark that takes someone aback and is a shock to the system when they thought they were just asking a question.


IMO, contacting your elected officials to ask about public policy changes, laws, and organizing local campaigns is the way to go on the spay and neuter issue.

And I've been there with burnout, on other topics, and the solution when you are feeling angry or frustrated is to walk away for a good long while. You don't do anybody any good when you speak to the uninformed with your anger. Passion yes, anger and disdain, no.

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 05:29 PM
just did a quick google search under...to spay or not to spay...1,670,000 links came up.

Exactly. Spaying/neutering and the fact that there is an overpopulation of pets has been very well publicised.

Exactly. The information is out there. There is no shortage of information on the topic, and most information on it promotes spaying/neutering. Sure, there can always be more, and maybe rescues, shelters, HS need to take a more aggressive approach to this and start using shock and awe campaigns like PETA does to get the harsh truth across.

What's needed is public information campaigns, that's what will make more of a difference than snark on a message board - snark that takes someone aback and is a shock to the system when they thought they were just asking a question.


IMO, contacting your elected officials to ask about public policy changes, laws, and organizing local campaigns is the way to go on the spay and neuter issue.

And I've been there with burnout, on other topics, and the solution when you are feeling angry or frustrated is to walk away for a good long while. You don't do anybody any good when you speak to the uninformed with your anger. Passion yes, anger and disdain, no.

I agree, which is why I try to be very polite and tactful when responding to a post of this nature or not at all. In fact, I have felt some of that "snark" before and it only scares people off.

I know in my local city, they push very hard for people to fix their pets and even have bylaws against leaving a bitch outside in heat, having more than so many pets at a residence to discourage breeders, giving reduced licensing rates for those who have their pet fixed, etc. etc. Oh, and there is alot of public campaigns out there... look at BFAS as an example of all the workshops, campaigns, etc. they do...

14+kitties
September 30th, 2010, 05:39 PM
And all its become is a fricking battle ground. People need to be civil to each other, no matter who they are or what their "status" is here, and quit the bickering, rude remarks, etc.

:shrug: I don't see a battleground cassie. I see friends joking with each other. It's all good!!

like PETA does to get the harsh truth across.

Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control. :( A 33 million dollar budget could go so far to truly help by building so many more shelters/rescues/etc. to help those animals they are supposed to be helping. Instead all they want to do is tell us how bad we are if we still eat meat.

Chris21711
September 30th, 2010, 05:43 PM
:shrug: I don't see a battleground cassie. I see friends joking with each other. It's all good!!

I don't see it as a battleground either...all in all I think it has been a good discussion between everyone :shrug:

Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control. :(

Oh yeah PETA....then the gloves come out :yell:

aslan
September 30th, 2010, 05:46 PM
ummm chris,,cassiek is the OP of this thread...and yes everyone has been extremely civilized to each other,,we occassionally surprise people and can have a polite yet controversial conversation.

which means one of two things,,we're all aware of where each of us is coming from so no wondering about whether or not what is being said is for real...ooooor,,nobody is pmsing at the moment.:D

Chris21711
September 30th, 2010, 05:53 PM
ummm chris,,cassiek is the OP of this thread...and yes everyone has been extremely civilized to each other,,we occassionally surprise people and can have a polite yet controversial conversation.

DUH :loser: that I am.....in my head I was referring to that other thread...you know which one?

,,nobody is pmsing at the moment.:D

I ain't that's for sure :D

cassiek
September 30th, 2010, 10:57 PM
Probably we need groups to start having a more aggressive approach towards conveying the message - along the lines of PETA, who I disagree with for several reasons, but have to admit... they get their message across loud and clear. (And before anyone freaks, I am not saying advertising naked women or graphic pictures to get a message across is necessary!).



Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control. :( A 33 million dollar budget could go so far to truly help by building so many more shelters/rescues/etc. to help those animals they are supposed to be helping. Instead all they want to do is tell us how bad we are if we still eat meat.

Oh yeah PETA....then the gloves come out :yell:

14+ and Chris, you missed my post from earlier :rolleyes: (see above) trust me I am about as anti-PETA as they get... I am actually part of a group called PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. :laughing: I am very aware of their practices - including euthanizing 95% of companion animals that enter their care. :eek: They just don't think we should all stop eating meat - they have gone as far to say that those of us who own companion animals are sentencing our pets to miserable lives and it is selfish on our behalf to keep them in our company. They think our companion animals are better off dead then sharing a life with their humans. :frustrated: They are truly looney toons no question about it. :crazy:

Maybe rescues, HS, etc. need to also take such a stance on advertising and show the public what they don't often see i.e. innocent animals being euthanized in huge #'s, being left to die outside, severely neglected etc. Maybe in this day and age we can't use statistics or research, we have to show people what the harsh reality of this situation really is.

And my comment about keeping things civilized was not directed to any of you... no worries. :)

Dracko
October 1st, 2010, 01:22 AM
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.

Now, me, I simply avoid posting in "those threads" cuz I would lose my cool. Also, I believe at least 50% of them are trolls. When the OP just seems to lead people on and on making the situation sound even worse with each post, I'm not buying it.

Frenchy
October 1st, 2010, 09:11 AM
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.



I know 14+ has been doing so lately , she will post links of pets.ca rules and links about spay/neuter. :)

marko
October 1st, 2010, 09:39 AM
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.

Now, me, I simply avoid posting in "those threads" cuz I would lose my cool. Also, I believe at least 50% of them are trolls. When the OP just seems to lead people on and on making the situation sound even worse with each post, I'm not buying it.

I think that is a wonderful, wonderful idea Dracko. :highfive: If we all agreed to use that form answer, (OR answer with complete tact, or not answer at all) then the friction round here would be greatly reduced in hot threads. It would make our forum friendlier for members/guests/lurkers/newbies.

I have no problem investing the time to write something up. I also have no problem if another member wants to do it.

Thx - Marko

mikischo
October 1st, 2010, 11:00 AM
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why.

Marko, I am directing this to you because, I would really appreciated your clarifying the bolded part above. The policy on this board clearly states the following:

"Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill."

To me there is an important difference between being a pro spay/neuter forum and being a forum on which most of the members are VERY pro spay/neuter.

One individual who posted on here just apologized for posting on this site because he/she "was not aware that this site is only for people who are against not neutering."

Love4himies
October 1st, 2010, 11:21 AM
To me there is an important difference between being a pro spay/neuter forum and being a forum on which most of the members are VERY pro spay/neuter.

One individual who posted on here just apologized for posting on this site because he/she "was not aware that this site is only for people who are against not neutering."

To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions :shrug:

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions. We are HUMAN, not robots (and add some PMSing in the equation :crazy:).

Just my :2cents:

BenMax
October 1st, 2010, 11:25 AM
To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions :shrug:

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions. We are HUMAN, not robots (and add some PMSing in the equation :crazy:).

Just my :2cents:

AMEN L4h...Amen! Thank you for the reminder and maybe some understanding on why things may go sideways. :grouphug:

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 11:29 AM
To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions :shrug:

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions.
Just my :2cents:

:thumbs up
There are plenty of breeding sites/forums out there where breeders can go and brag about how well SallyJeans litter is doing. Google them and you will find a ton. There are NO pro s/n forums where people who feel strongly about the issue can go and let their feelings be known. I feel at home here on Pets because I know there are a large majority who feel the way I do. :grouphug:

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 11:38 AM
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?

Personally, I don't see "breeder" and "pro-S/N" or "active rescuer" as being mutually exclusive. I think it's possible that we miss out on opportunities to generate partnerships with knowledgeable allies. But that's just my :2cents:

*ducks to avoid the rotten tomatoes flying my way*

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 11:50 AM
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?

Personally, I don't see "breeder" and "pro-S/N" or "active rescuer" as being mutually exclusive. I think it's possible that we miss out on opportunities to generate partnerships with knowledgeable allies. But that's just my :2cents:

*ducks to avoid the rotten tomatoes flying my way*

I think you missed what I was trying to say. :o I don't care that there are breeders here or that there are folks here who feel it is not necessary to s/n their pets. All I meant is there are lots of breeding sites available. There are not many sites I can go to and feel comfortable with my thoughts and feelings. Right now it's all about fairness to the breeders, the people who don't feel they should fix their pets. How about some fairness to the ones of us who do feel the need to s/n? We are a growing majority, thank Dawg. Don't we deserve a place where we feel we can let loose? To me that's what Pets.ca is. :shrug: I think the rules are fine the way they are. As they say - Pets has developed a certain pulse over the years. I feel proud that in my own small way I helped make it so. :shrug:

And no tomatoes. I leave those for the people I don't like. :p

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 11:55 AM
Do you want to make it such a cliquey place that people who don't share ____ views are chased away and told they don't belong? Officially even, with closed threads.

What about the side of things that if you don't chase them away and they stay, they'll learn some other stuff. And maybe so will some of the existing members learn from them. How "open" is your community to new members in general? It sounds like some of you don't care about that.

Breeding isn't the only issue I've seen people get snarky unwelcoming replies about. How many issues do the newbies have to agree with you on before they're allowed to feel welcome.

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 11:58 AM
I think you missed what I was trying to say. :o I don't care that there are breeders here or that there are folks here who feel it is not necessary to s/n their pets. All I meant is there are lots of breeding sites available. There are not many sites I can go to and feel comfortable with my thoughts and feelings. Right now it's all about fairness to the breeders, the people who don't feel they should fix their pets. How about some fairness to the ones of us who do feel the need to s/n? We are a growing majority, thank Dawg. Don't we deserve a place where we feel we can let loose? To me that's what Pets.ca is. :shrug: I think the rules are fine the way they are. As they say - Pets has developed a certain pulse over the years. I feel proud that in my own small way I helped make it so. :shrug:

I totally get where you're coming from, I guess I'm just thinking about how we, as a community, can best avoid the situations where threads go off course and feelings get hurt and strong words are spoken to new posters. If pets had an offical stance on these things, these threads could be closed with a quick "please refer to forum policy" note, end of discussion. I think it's ambiguous right now, and new people are scared away without really understanding what they did wrong. If we are NOT going to talk about those particular subjects, then we should make it clear ahead of time. It's not the position I personally would take, because it would make us uninviting, but it is an option, and I'm throwing it out there.


And no tomatoes. I leave those for the people I don't like. :p

Phew. :o :D

Love4himies
October 1st, 2010, 11:58 AM
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?



I don't see it as a "rule" that the admins have to make., I see it as a "theme" of thoughts and ideas for people to come together to converse :shrug:. Policy about health questions, I am pretty sure, stem from liability issues the admins would have on their hands should a member give wrong advice.

I guess you could have breeders and rescuers together, in theory anyways, but being human, I think you would continually get clashes.

As 14+ stated, this is by far the most pro spay/neuter forum out there and that is why pro spay/neuter members stick around.

Mirela
October 1st, 2010, 12:00 PM
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. [.....]

I absolutely agree with this. To me, as a newcomer with no experience as a pet owner, the "formal" stance of this forum did not prepare me for the grilling I've got in my first thread.

I've read "Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill."
... and I thought - Yes! all of this is good and I feel the same so,...on to register.... only to get admonished for buying a puppy from a breeder instead of adopting from a shelter or rescue.
In my mind, being "pro spay/neuter" meant being a responsible owner and neutering my dog but sometimes on this forum it means "no breeding whatsoever, by anybody".

I guess clarifying this stance might avoid some unpleasant situations.

Love4himies
October 1st, 2010, 12:02 PM
Bendy, just read you reply to 14+: Sometimes it takes me so long to write :frustrated:, I am not a person of words :o

I don't think they necessarily should be closed, only if they start getting off course. Some people may give some of our advice to spay/neuter, check the pet overpopulation, etc., etc. some thought and change their minds.

Perhaps an official post by the Admins that we can post a link to specifically discussing the pro spay/neuter issues and see where the OP goes from there:shrug:.

If you get any tomatoes, send them my way, I could eat them till the cows come home.

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 12:06 PM
I don't see it as a "rule" that the admins have to make., I see it as a "theme" of thoughts and ideas for people to come together to converse :shrug:.

But since only indicate it's a "theme" and then we get pissed at new posters when they offer alternate lines of discussion, it doesn't seem fair. Remove the ambiuity, and you remove any possibility of hurt feelings or nasty retaliation. You never see an angry response of "hey, you closed my thread!" after we close a medical emerg thread.

Policy about health questions, I am pretty sure, stem from liability issues the admins would have on their hands should a member give wrong advice.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so...members give eachother advice, including about supplements, OTC medications etc all the time, some of which could actually be harmful (easy example: New Poster: My dog is limping a bit, seems sore. Reponse: Give some baby asprin. Potential problem: if the dog is already on another antiinflamatory, or has a blood issue or stomach ulcers or...it could cause problems). I just thought we had the policy because it was in the animal's best interest.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 12:19 PM
Do you want to make it such a cliquey place that people who don't share ____ views are chased away and told they don't belong? Officially even, with closed threads.

By their very nature forums over time DO become cliquey. No one is told they don't belong. NO ONE. If they chose to take it that way so be it. I agree we can tone it down. I'm working on it. :p:rolleyes: But I am what I am. Anyone who has met me in person will tell you the same. :shrug:

Love4himies
October 1st, 2010, 12:23 PM
By their very nature forums over time DO become cliquey. No one is told they don't belong. NO ONE. If they choses to take it that way so be it. I agree we can tone it down. I'm working on it. :p:rolleyes: But I am what I am. Anyone who has met me in person will tell you the same. :shrug:

Absolutely they do become cliquey! It is human nature. I have seen it in another forum I am a member of (health related).

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 12:25 PM
But since only indicate it's a "theme" and then we get pissed at new posters when they offer alternate lines of discussion, it doesn't seem fair. Remove the ambiuity, and you remove any possibility of hurt feelings or nasty retaliation. You never see an angry response of "hey, you closed my thread!" after we close a medical emerg thread.

You also do not see one single one of those people who's threads have been closed down so quickly EVER come back. I know 'cause I have checked. They probably moved on to another forum who told them what they wanted to hear. There's lots of them out there.
I don't agree with members telling people what to give their pets either when it comes to harmful things like aspirin. I cringe when that happens. In those cases there should be a *I am not a vet. Please check with your own vet before administering any medication.* at the end of any post where we have said to try this on Muffy's toes or do this to Biffy. :shrug:

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 12:35 PM
You also do not see one single one of those people who's threads have been closed down so quickly EVER come back. I know 'cause I have checked. They probably moved on to another forum who told them what they wanted to hear. There's lots of them out there.
I don't agree with members telling people what to give their pets either when it comes to harmful things like aspirin. I cringe when that happens. In those cases there should be a *I am not a vet. Please check with your own vet before administering any medication.* at the end of any post where we have said to try this on Muffy's toes or do this to Biffy. :shrug:

Yeah, info given out on here would be a LOT different if you were legally liable for the advice you gave...

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 12:41 PM
You also do not see one single one of those people who's threads have been closed down so quickly EVER come back. I know 'cause I have checked. They probably moved on to another forum who told them what they wanted to hear. :

I probably wouldn't have come back either :shrug: I wonder if my first post here had been "hey, so I got my new puppy from some lady in my neighbourhood whose dogs had puppies"...if my welcome would have been as warm? I said "I rescued her", which I thought I had, in my mind...I didn't even know what a byb was at the time...if folks here hadn't welcomed me warmly (as they did) but rather berated me for contributing to an unethical, inhumane industry, not to mention the pet overpopulation problem, I may not have stuck around long enough to learn everything I have since then.

Frenchy
October 1st, 2010, 12:43 PM
I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions. We are HUMAN, not robots (and add some PMSing in the equation :crazy:).

Just my :2cents:

AMEN L4h...Amen! Thank you for the reminder and maybe some understanding on why things may go sideways. :grouphug:

I second the amen L4H :)

I know some people here that are not involve with rescues because they can't , but they do understand what rescuers are going through. They give great support , and many times , will also help however they can , even if it's just understanding and support. :grouphug:

unfortunately , there always people that would need do walk in one rescuer's shoes for a couple weeks , to even begin to understand why we think the way we think.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 01:05 PM
I probably wouldn't have come back either :shrug: I wonder if my first post here had been "hey, so I got my new puppy from some lady in my neighbourhood whose dogs had puppies"...if my welcome would have been as warm? I said "I rescued her", which I thought I had, in my mind...I didn't even know what a byb was at the time...if folks here hadn't welcomed me warmly (as they did) but rather berated me for contributing to an unethical, inhumane industry, not to mention the pet overpopulation problem, I may not have stuck around long enough to learn everything I have since then.

I think you missed what I was trying to say again. :o :p You mentioned the medical emergency questions threads that were closed down. Those were the ones I was referring to. Not any other thread. I have gone into a few of those threads and offered advise about getting the pet to their vet and stated reasons why and did it nicely :D only to go back a few minutes later and find the thread closed. These have been threads that would not have "turned". That's all I'm saying.
For the most part I don't see what some people are referring to. I don't feel we tell all people who ask questions about their sick pup/kitty that they got from a byb or mill or pet store that they are the worse people in the world. I feel we try to educate. I suppose we do at times come across strong handed. But - go to any other forum and ask the same question and see the answers you get. I can almost guarantee they will be far worse than what we post. Pets is by far the most welcoming forum I have ever found. :thumbs up

mikischo
October 1st, 2010, 01:15 PM
"Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill.

That said, all posts are to be responded to in a polite manner. Please EDUCATE or IGNORE posters that you don't agree with. Respond with kindness or do not respond at all. Rudeness from newer or older members will not be tolerated and may result in the member being removed without warning."

Going back to the posting rules and policies, in the second paragraph above it clearly states that "rudeness from newer or older members will not be tolerated ............."

My experience on this board has led me to get the impression that rudeness from older members is tolerated on this board (sorry Marko, but I feel the need to say this).

I have been a member here for 1 1/2 years and I have lost track of the times I have been left with a very bad taste in my mouth, to the point where I have often considered leaving this forum, after watching yet another thread disintegrate because some older members have ganged up on yet another newcomer or, in some cases, someone who is not so new. I am not saying that rude comments can never be uttered. Nobody is perfect. I am referring to the threads where a member is ganged up on, and people behave in a way that reminds me of "grade school bullies." That kind of behaviour does not command any respect, IMO.

And then you get into senior members attacking other senior members and to me that is something to be ashamed of. That really makes us look like we are :crazy:, then things get off topic.

I totally agree, but why is it considered okay to gang up on and attack junior members or newcomers? Does attacking junior members or newcomers make people look any less :crazy:?

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 01:15 PM
I think you missed what I was trying to say again. :o :p You mentioned the medical emergency questions threads that were closed down. Those were the ones I was referring to.

You're right...I DID misunderstand *SPLAT* (that was me throwing a tomato at myself :D)

I feel we try to educate. I suppose we do at times come across strong handed. But - go to any other forum and ask the same question and see the answers you get. I can almost guarantee they will be far worse than what we post. Pets is by far the most welcoming forum I have ever found. :thumbs up

And I'm willing to say that yes, most of the time we do try to educate...but yeah, it's the strong-handedness that I find so off-putting. Maybe I'm too nice :p I guess I just personally find that a more diplomatic approach works better for me.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 01:20 PM
You're right...I DID misunderstand *SPLAT* (that was me throwing a tomato at myself )

:laughing::laughing: I hope you like tomatoes.

And I'm willing to say that yes, most of the time we do try to educate...but yeah, it's the strong-handedness that I find so off-putting. Maybe I'm too nice :p I guess I just personally find that a more diplomatic approach works better for me.

So I will try to do the best I can to "educate with a kinder hand".

Truly, my feeling about forums is that a lot of people come on to ask a question, get their answer (whether they like it or not) and don't come back. They got what they wanted so why stick around. Maybe I'm way off the mark. It's been known to happen once or twice. :p There are a lot of people out there that are simply not the "forum" kind of people.

Love4himies
October 1st, 2010, 01:43 PM
I totally agree, but why is it considered okay to gang up on and attack junior members or newcomers? Does attacking junior members or newcomers make people look any less :crazy:?

Didn't say that.

My point being that normally takes the thread off topic and then the thread goes :crazy: and the OP is long gone.

Sew-sew-steve
October 1st, 2010, 01:49 PM
i've tried researching stuff with my first cat before i even knew of this site.
maybe i didnt research correctly, but i didnt get too much information that would "open my eyes" and make me think as much as when i got on here.

its much different to read something on google then to come on here and get people to respond with first hand experience.

i didnt know that spaying/neutering was better for the overall health of the animal. i didnt like the idea when i first heard of it, i still dont like it, because im taking something valuable away from the animal. but its the lesser of two evils to spay/neuter then to leave them breed and have many of them live a hard life.

theres an ocean of information out there, but sometimes you dont exactly know where to "swim" to find the information you want. sometimes, you dont know where to look exactly. and sometimes (i know because its happened to me) you have questions that are too specific to be researched.

thats why this site (in my eyes) is a goldmine.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 03:02 PM
So let’s ask this question. If a newbie is joining should they not take the time to look through the site to see if their question has been asked/answered before? :shrug: In reality if we have answered the same question 5 or 6 times in a week I think anyone is bound to get a little off kilter. Now follow my skewed thinking here.:D You may say “What if they need a fast answer to the question they are asking?” Then, in reality, does that not qualify as an emergency and they should be contacting their vet? Why are they on the computer asking questions on a pet forum where we can not "legally", as already pointed out, answer medical questions?
All I am saying is if I am joining a forum where I hope to stick around and meet wonderful people :grouphug: I would take the time to suss out the feel of the forum before joining.
We talk about all the times we greet newbies with “hostility”. What about all of the times we welcome people to the forum and beg them to post pictures? How many never ever come back after posting once of twice? I bet you will find the answer a little shocking. We weren’t “mean” to them. They just didn’t bother coming back. :shrug:

hazelrunpack
October 1st, 2010, 03:09 PM
So let’s ask this question. If a newbie is joining should they not take the time to look through the site to see if their question has been asked/answered before? :shrug:

If they're new to forums, they likely don't know how to look around. I didn't when I first joined up. I joined to address a specific problem that came up in an unrelated browser search...and my first post turned out to be in a thread a year or more old. Sound familiar? :D Newbie mistake.

But as far as searching for an answer on the site before joining? Except for that first hit off a search, the only other thing I knew how to access at that time were the day's posts. Wouldn't have gotten me very far if I'd come in with a question. :shrug:

Sew-sew-steve
October 1st, 2010, 03:19 PM
i usually try and look if im gonna ask an already answered question.

if its not there, i ask.

but if you already answered a question multiple times, your not obliged to do it another time. theres many members here, its bound to get answered.

worst case scenario, you link them to a thread where it was answered.

some people join and lurk, some just join and then leave for no reason, and thats fine its their choice. who cares.

some people join, ask a question, and get chewed up and spit out.
its best to just not write anything at all if you want to hit the OP or the newbie, or w.e.

the important thing is the animals, if your mad, dont be. be good, do it for the animals' wellbeing. if your frusterated, dont be. be calm for the animals' wellbeing.

i've said it before, you guys are the abasadors for the animal, wether you acknowledge it or not. with great power comes great responsiblitiy. knowledge is everything. maybe someone might take their knowledge for granted and forget the influence they have on a fellow member, and with a few subtle words cause them to leave.

one thing that unites us all is the love for the animals, we all joined here for the same reason, to learn and help the animals. its the reason i even came back (again).

so if someone boils your blood just dont post a reply to them.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 03:19 PM
If they're new to forums, they likely don't know how to look around. I didn't when I first joined up. I joined to address a specific problem that came up in an unrelated browser search...and my first post turned out to be in a thread a year or more old. Sound familiar? :D Newbie mistake.

But as far as searching for an answer on the site before joining? Except for that first hit off a search, the only other thing I knew how to access at that time were the day's posts. Wouldn't have gotten me very far if I'd come in with a question. :shrug:

Fair enough. Point taken. :thumbs up I didn't know how to access anything on the forum either when I first found it. That's why I took the time to look around and figure things out before asking my first question. I "thought" that's the way most people did things. :shrug: After all, we don't walk into a grocery store and pay for our groceries before buying them. To me it's just doing things a little backwards. I would rather know what I am getting into before getting into it than afterward. I can't be the only one. :confused:

hazelrunpack
October 1st, 2010, 03:23 PM
I've evidently always been backwards. :p But I doubt I'm the only one :shrug:

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 03:29 PM
I've evidently always been backwards. :p But I doubt I'm the only one :shrug:

Nope. In fact I am beginning to get the feeling like I am the backward one. :p

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 03:45 PM
So let’s ask this question. If a newbie is joining should they not take the time to look through the site to see if their question has been asked/answered before? :shrug: In reality if we have answered the same question 5 or 6 times in a week I think anyone is bound to get a little off kilter. Now follow my skewed thinking here.:D You may say “What if they need a fast answer to the question they are asking?” Then, in reality, does that not qualify as an emergency and they should be contacting their vet? Why are they on the computer asking questions on a pet forum where we can not "legally", as already pointed out, answer medical questions?
All I am saying is if I am joining a forum where I hope to stick around and meet wonderful people :grouphug: I would take the time to suss out the feel of the forum before joining.
We talk about all the times we greet newbies with “hostility”. What about all of the times we welcome people to the forum and beg them to post pictures? How many never ever come back after posting once of twice? I bet you will find the answer a little shocking. We weren’t “mean” to them. They just didn’t bother coming back. :shrug:

I used to run a forum elsewhere, not about pets. I found out the hard way, that no, people will not read what's already been posted. They don't make that effort when they are just new. IF they are "hooked" by the responses and discussion to their first post, they might come back and look a little more.

I think of it as someone just coming to your house the first time. Most first guests don't feel comfortable looking in each cupboard to find where you keep the coffee cups on the first visit, they are more hesitant and stay in the front room, etc.

There are many reasons people don''t come back, and only one of them is less-welcoming responses from existing members. Lots of people just aren't interested in posting lots and being part of a community. Some people just don't use the internet like that. Maybe in a year, they might remember the site again when they have another question, something like that.

On the place I used to run, we found we had to be certain that new members agreed to the rules before they were allowed to join. Otherwise people would get very nasty and defensive and act like it was unreasonable to expect them to actually read the rules before join. So if the pets.ca forum as a group (it seems like its just a few very vocal people right now?) wants a formal policy on whether people must be pro-spay/neuter, anti-breeder, anti-certain foods, anti-toilet training, and all the other things people object to when unsuspecting newbies post - I would suggest formalizing it in the rules people must agree to when they first join. :2cents:

Sew-sew-steve
October 1st, 2010, 03:56 PM
that might make things run smoother, but then theres no real freedome of speech. people come one here with different values and opinions. but they are roughly all the same. i came on here and i was against spaying/neutering.
now though, im ok with it, and will spay/neuter any animal i get.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 04:29 PM
On the place I used to run, we found we had to be certain that new members agreed to the rules before they were allowed to join. Otherwise people would get very nasty and defensive and act like it was unreasonable to expect them to actually read the rules before join. So if the pets.ca forum as a group (it seems like its just a few very vocal people right now?) wants a formal policy on whether people must be pro-spay/neuter, anti-breeder, anti-certain foods, anti-toilet training, and all the other things people object to when unsuspecting newbies post - I would suggest formalizing it in the rules people must agree to when they first join. :2cents:

Again, fair 'nough. Now how would you propose to go about that? On most of the different sites I have been on where they want you to agree to the rules before you join you do it with a simple check. Grand idea in theory. In reality how many people read those rules before checking the box? :shrug: I suppose the most important sections could be bolded and half an inch high so people can't say they "didn't see it" before clicking. Other than that when a simple click lets you on a site why bother reading the rules? Are you saying when they later say I didn't see that and someone points out it's in the rules that they had to click before they became a member that they will act any better?
I think the whole part of cassiek starting this thread was to try to say that it is not always the senior members that react badly. Sometimes it's the newbie coming in with preconceived ideas. Should we react to that? No. Do we? Yes. It's human nature. :shrug:

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 04:36 PM
We had a system where you had to say "I have read the rules", make an actual reply to indicate that, before membership was approved. It meant the moderators had to approve each individual new member, but it actually did cut down a lot on conflicts.

I do not know if the admin here even want a system where there are so many values ingrained in the rules, but it is possible.

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 05:20 PM
I've evidently always been backwards. :p But I doubt I'm the only one :shrug:

Nope :D:D:D



On the place I used to run, we found we had to be certain that new members agreed to the rules before they were allowed to join. Otherwise people would get very nasty and defensive and act like it was unreasonable to expect them to actually read the rules before join. So if the pets.ca forum as a group (it seems like its just a few very vocal people right now?) wants a formal policy on whether people must be pro-spay/neuter, anti-breeder, anti-certain foods, anti-toilet training, and all the other things people object to when unsuspecting newbies post - I would suggest formalizing it in the rules people must agree to when they first join. :2cents:

Now THIS is a good idea! Even if not everyone reads it, it could be put as a disclaimer before registering; some would read it. It would be more likely to be found than the link on the forum to the same info (where the heck is that link, anyways? :laughing:)

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 05:33 PM
(where the heck is that link, anyways? :laughing:)

There's a link right in my signature. :D

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 05:36 PM
It might be a better idea to have a more private area (are there social clubs here) rather than closing off your forum to new members who don't fit the checklist of opinion criteria. I'm betting I'm not the only one who feels unwelcome at reading how enthusiastic people on here are to close off membership and disallow those who don't agree.....

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 05:40 PM
It might be a better idea to have a more private area (are there social clubs here) rather than closing off your forum to new members who don't fit the checklist of opinion criteria. I'm betting I'm not the only one who feels unwelcome at reading how enthusiastic people on here are to close off membership and disallow those who don't agree.....

:confused::confused::confused: Where in heaven's name did anyone say that?

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 05:46 PM
:confused::confused::confused: Where in heaven's name did anyone say that?
That's what I feel like I've been reading a lot of in this thread. I hope I'm wrong.

But it feels sort of like people are saying it's fine to jump on newbies about certain issues, because well, the newbies should already know the stance of this board. So therefore, don't come here if you don't agree, we'll jump on you.
:(

People think it's great to make it so that members have to agree to be anti-all this stuff that the established most vocal members are against - before you even join? Really?? What you want then is not a forum, what you want is a private club.

Loki Love
October 1st, 2010, 05:47 PM
So, being pro spay/neuter does that mean this forum, in general, is against all kinds of breeding - or only those classified as BYB? The 'rules' would suggest the latter, however discussions would indicate that all breeding is frowned upon.

To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

Just curious.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 05:51 PM
That's what I feel like I've been reading a lot of in this thread. I hope I'm wrong.

Yikes!! I think there has been a lot of reading between lines that just are not there. :confused: I have not seen that at all. All I have seen is a discussion that I thought was going fairly civilly. Strange that you would see it differently.
I believe it is time for me to bow out of this thread. I feel a strange chill.........

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 05:53 PM
There's a link right in my signature. :D

:wall::laughing:

That's what I feel like I've been reading a lot of in this thread. I hope I'm wrong.


I think you're wrong...I'm not hearing that at all. Even if there was a "disclaimer" it would be just that...no one would have to swear an oath to agree, but they would be duly warned that it was the prevailing sentiment of the board.



To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?



I don't think so. I hope not.

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 05:54 PM
Yikes!! I think there has been a lot of reading between lines that just are not there. :confused: I have not seen that at all. All I have seen is a discussion that I thought was going fairly civilly. Strange that you would see it differently.
I believe it is time for me to bow out of this thread. I feel a strange chill.........
Reading Loki Love's post above and a few others that talk about how they got their dogs firm breeders and wondered if this was frowned on, etc - I don't think you need to leave the thread, 14+, but I also don't think I'm so completely off base. I've felt a chill in threads where new (and not so new) people with good intentions are jumped on. :(

driver8
October 1st, 2010, 05:57 PM
:wall::laughing:



I think you're wrong...I'm not hearing that at all. Even if there was a "disclaimer" it would be just that...no one would have to swear an oath to agree, but they would be duly warned that it was the prevailing sentiment of the board. .

Do you think it is the prevailing sentiment on the board? I'm not so sure. Definitely the more vocal people are very strong on it.

luckypenny
October 1st, 2010, 06:02 PM
So, being pro spay/neuter does that mean this forum, in general, is against all kinds of breeding - or only those classified as BYB? The 'rules' would suggest the latter, however discussions would indicate that all breeding is frowned upon.

Some individual members are against all, some just the latter. A poll showing accurate representation of all members hasn't been done as far I know.

To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

If this is the case, then there's much hypocricy. Many members, both old and new, have purchased pets from responsible breeders, byb, and puppymills via pet stores.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 06:17 PM
So, being pro spay/neuter does that mean this forum, in general, is against all kinds of breeding - or only those classified as BYB? The 'rules' would suggest the latter, however discussions would indicate that all breeding is frowned upon.

To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

Just curious.

Responsible breeders are difficult to find. No, I am not personally against responsible breeding. Would I like it if good forever homes were found for those pups before the breeding took place? You betcha'! In fact I have been told that good breeders have a waiting list for their pups. Some lists are long with potential adopters waiting years to get a pup. :shrug: Then there are the dogs that are bred to be working dogs. Normally that is done in a breeding facility with dogs of known temperament. I speak to a gentleman a few times a week who will soon be starting to train his 14th dog. Every one came from the same breeding facility. That kind of breeding I am not against. What I am against is puppy mills, bybs, people who have no idea the harm they can cause a dog just because they want a litter of pups. Sadly there are a lot more of them than there are responsible breeders.

Reading Loki Love's post above and a few others that talk about how they got their dogs firm breeders and wondered if this was frowned on, etc - I don't think you need to leave the thread, 14+, but I also don't think I'm so completely off base. I've felt a chill in threads where new (and not so new) people with good intentions are jumped on. :(

If that is the case maybe it is because of the way those good intentions have been worded? :shrug: Take a look back at some of these threads you speak of and try seeing it from the other point of view. :confused: We are none of us perfect.
Now I do have to go. I have a kitty to feed and give sub-qs to.

bendyfoot
October 1st, 2010, 06:35 PM
Do you think it is the prevailing sentiment on the board? I'm not so sure. Definitely the more vocal people are very strong on it.

Actually, after having been here for about 3 years...yes, I do. I think most people here (those who post anyways) are pro S/N...they may beleive in delayed S/N for various reasons (as I do), but I think most beleive that unless you are a reputable ethical breeder (at the very least), then your pets should be snipped at some point (as mine are). And I think that most people (likely because it kind of goes hand in hand with the S/N issue) are also anti-byb (once they learn what it is). I think most people, given time to think about/research/ask questions about matters pertaining to food, want to do the best thing for their animals as much as they are able to within their financial means. I don't think the MAJORITY are completely anti-breeder, though, only a vocal few.

aslan
October 1st, 2010, 06:36 PM
To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

Just curious.

One of my dogs wash purchased by my spouse at a pet store before i met her and she didn't know anything about puppymills,,our big guy was purchased from a responsible breeder..From day one that i joined the forum i have never been treated negatively because of where my boys come from. All of my previous pets have been rescues..

I think what some members would like is for all breeding to stop until all the animals in shelters are helped..My personal wish is that we could atleast get rid of the puppymills and byb's..i think that would go along way to help the situation.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 10:53 PM
but if you already answered a question multiple times, your not obliged to do it another time. theres many members here, its bound to get answered.

Don't bet on it. There have been many times lately where a thread remains unanswered for a long time. My feeling is that the "regular" members are getting so tired of having their hands figuratively slapped for stating their opinion that they just aren't bothering to answer. That, IMO, is pretty sad.
For the regular members who are reading this (I know you are :p) please correct me if I'm wrong.

May I just add I am impressed as all get out that we have made it to page 6 without any major b****h slapping. 'Course now that I've said that we won't make page 7. :D

Dracko
October 1st, 2010, 11:04 PM
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 11:07 PM
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.


:thumbs up Terrific!!! Very well said!!

14+kitties
October 1st, 2010, 11:11 PM
... or does there seem to be more than the "normal" amount of users who won't have their dog/cat spayed/neutered for a number of reasons lately? :shrug:[/B]

I just went back and read the opening post. Talk about threadjacking!! This thread has gotten so far off course it's hilarious!! But I think it's helped clear the air a little.

cassiek
October 2nd, 2010, 12:51 AM
Gosh has this thread ever developed into something I never imagined! :laughing: I haven't been able to come on all day but was shocked to see how many more responses there have been! It's great... I love open, polite conversation! :thumbs up


I think the whole part of cassiek starting this thread was to try to say that it is not always the senior members that react badly. Sometimes it's the newbie coming in with preconceived ideas. Should we react to that? No. Do we? Yes. It's human nature. :shrug:

:D Actually, I started this thread just to rant about the amount of people I have been noticing lately who are not spaying/neutering their pets and to vent :laughing: but... I agree. I certainly have witnessed several times senior members responding very politely and tactfully to a new poster who starts a thread on a topic that's pretty "hot" territory and when the OP doesn't get the answer they receive, the OP is the one who becomes hostile and angry and starts spouting off insults. :shrug: Obviously we are all humans and don't take too kindly to someone screaming at us over the internet when we were being polite in the first place. :rolleyes:



And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

Very well put, Dracko. I think everyone is welcome here, but should expect that by joining a thread where many members are involved in what we are and have the opinions we do, they probably will not receive the answers they want. Can we point them in the right direction? Sure. But they need to be realistic too and expect that if they come on a board that is largely pro spay/neuter and start whining about their pregnant dog they left tied up outside to be raped by all the male dogs in the neighbourhood and now have 10 pups to deal with and don't know what to do (yes I had this call last night - good grief), they should not be surprised to expect some backlash. For the most part, I think we are fairly good at keeping our emotions in check :shrug:

I just went back and read the opening post. Talk about threadjacking!! This thread has gotten so far off course it's hilarious!! But I think it's helped clear the air a little.

Haha it has for sure! But I think it's been a good conversation. :thumbs up

I don't think anyone here would hold it "against" someone because they purchased their pup from a BYB, pet store, etc. we all make mistakes... I think as long as we learn from them and become educated, it's all good. We have all made mistakes. That being said, if we had a user join that learned how terrible pet stores are etc. and continued to support this after everything they learned on here but decided not to care... we might be a bit upset and somewhat hold them against that.

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2010, 04:49 AM
I don't think anyone here would hold it "against" someone because they purchased their pup from a BYB, pet store, etc. we all make mistakes... I think as long as we learn from them and become educated, it's all good. We have all made mistakes. That being said, if we had a user join that learned how terrible pet stores are etc. and continued to support this after everything they learned on here but decided not to care... we might be a bit upset and somewhat hold them against that.

I agree, I don't think members hold it against anybody who purchases from a byb or pet store, just that they care for their pet.

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2010, 04:51 AM
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

Exactly how I see things :thumbs up

marko
October 2nd, 2010, 06:47 AM
Just wanted to mention that i have been watching this thread and I'll post in it again at some point.

thx - Marko

Frenchy
October 2nd, 2010, 09:11 AM
the "regular" members are getting so tired of having their hands figuratively slapped for stating their opinion that they just aren't bothering to answer. That, IMO, is pretty sad.
For the regular members who are reading this (I know you are :p) please correct me if I'm wrong.



You're right 14+ , I for one , has been less active than I was before on this board. And I know others too because there used to be way more threads and posts to read. The board has been less active than since I've joined.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

Well said and I totally agree Dracko. :thumbs up

And I also feel the rudeness accusations by some , are over dramatic.

mikischo
October 2nd, 2010, 11:03 AM
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

I have watched things develop on numerous occasions as well and, yes, I have seen a some threads as you describe. However I have also seen many other threads that go out of whack with no provocation whatsoever from the OP. Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack? Fairly recently I saw a thread where the very first response to a newcomer's first post had to be edited by the mod and, in this case, the OP had only asked a very normal question (nothing to do with breeding or spay/neuter or declawing or other "touchy" subjects).

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

I don't see all threads and could very well be missing something but I have seen very few threads started by what I thought to be trolls in recent months and I can't think of any recent ones where members were baited either. I think a lot of that has to do with the excellent job Marko and the mods are doing.:thumbs up

Most of the time, trolls and/or spammers and spambots are caught very quickly and the threads/posts are deleted. Again I could have missed some threads that you saw.:)

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

Yes, I agree that Marko and the mods work very hard and do an excellent job of deleting posts and shutting down threads when it becomes necessary to do so. I do, however, question why threads get out of hand to the point that this needs to be done in the first place. We are all adults here and there is an excellent and very well worded policy in place that clearly states what is and is not acceptable behaviour.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

Again, I agree with you that members should be able to state their views clearly. However, I also believe that these views can be expressed clearly without attacking the newcomer. I must say that two very recent threads by newcomers on spay/neuter were handled reasonably well and far better than many I have seen in the past. Could this not become more of the norm rather than the exception?

Just my :2cents:

14+kitties
October 2nd, 2010, 02:13 PM
Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack?


I think that’s the point we’ve been trying to make.:shrug: Do we not have the right to stand up for our rights too or are they moot? Is it only the OP that has a right to accuse and take things the wrong way?
There have indeed been threads where things have taken a turn for the worse. Our words have been so totally taken out of context as to make their original meaning obsolete to anyone but the person who wrote them. The wording has been twisted and turned until “we” look guilty even though they were written with complete innocence. In some cases we have been told we said things which we absolutely did not. We all know threads like that.
Do we then stand by and say “Oh that’s ok. S/he’s a newbie and will learn.”?

Tolerance is a great thing. I suppose we should all try to be more tolerant. But then we probably all would have to take Prozac and see our world through a rose coloured haze. No offense to those that do.;) Some days I wish I could.

You don’t have to be in rescue to see the reality of what is happening with the pet overpopulation. It’s all over. On TV, in the news, on line, everywhere. All you have to do is open your eyes. I think I have made my points as calmly and clearly as I can. It’s time for someone else to step in. I've taken up enough of this thread. :o

hazelrunpack
October 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack?


I think that’s the point we’ve been trying to make.:shrug: Do we not have the right to stand up for our rights too or are they moot? Is it only the OP that has a right to accuse and take things the wrong way?
There have indeed been threads where things have taken a turn for the worse. Our words have been so totally taken out of context as to make their original meaning obsolete to anyone but the person who wrote them. The wording has been twisted and turned until “we” look guilty even though they were written with complete innocence. In some cases we have been told we said things which we absolutely did not. We all know threads like that.
Do we then stand by and say “Oh that’s ok. S/he’s a newbie and will learn.”?

Tolerance is a great thing. I suppose we should all try to be more tolerant. But then we don’t all take Prozac and see our world through a rose coloured haze either. No offense to those that do.;) Some days I wish I could.

What rights are those, 14+?

An OP has just as much right as anyone else to their opinion. There is a difference between attacking and educating. If I sincerely try to educate and the OP bridles and comes back on the attack, I step away from the thread if I think it's a lost cause--because, after all, it's that person's right to also have their own opinions. But just because they have a different opinion than mine, I don't feel like my rights have been violated. I still hold the same opinions and will say the same thing next time. :shrug:

Tolerance does go a long way--intolerance of anyone's ideas is a sure-fire way to close them off to education. The world is NOT black and white--it is infinite shades of gray. The trick is finding the grays you like in common and using them to get introduced. Then the education (the change in preference of grays) begins. Until you find some way to meet face to face, you'll never get the chance to educate.

Most the members here are not actively into rescue, and probably most of them were ignorant or at least blind to the problem of puppy mills and bybs when they joined, yet look how many were educated and became long-term members? Now ask how many of them would have stuck around if posts in their first thread were angry or judgmental based on little or no knowledge of their situation? Or angry in the face of their ignorance? A little knowledge can go a long way in clearing up that ignorance, but only if it's given in a way that allows them to hear it. Getting them angry is never going to promote education.

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2010, 02:52 PM
Most the members here are not actively into rescue, and probably most of them were ignorant or at least blind to the problem of puppy mills and bybs when they joined, yet look how many were educated and became long-term members?

Not of puppymills, maybe byb's. You would have to have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years or so. It has been in the news for years.

Also, everybody has different communication skills and how they interpret a post. Some people, me included, don't like to post a lot of wordy words. Others who may interpret my posts as being abrupt and read more into what I am saying than what I intended. That is my style, get to the point immediately. I personally like posts that are the same :shrug:.

hazelrunpack
October 2nd, 2010, 03:04 PM
I had no idea what a puppymill was when I joined. If I'd heard the term, it just wasn't something that I had a lot of occasion to think about. Truth--even though I lived in probably the biggest puppymill county of the state. The point is, I learned, and I learned quickly.

Internet communication is difficult--someone coming in, uncertain of themselves, getting an abrupt reply, might well misinterpret and get angry. Doesn't mean abrupt is wrong--just means I might have to explain my view more clearly later. That's easy to do in person, but on a BB, you sometimes don't get that chance to discuss things later. There is so much of human conversation that comes from tone of voice and facial expression--none of that comes across on a BB. So I always try to be more careful when trying to initiate a discussion on a BB than when in person. :shrug:

rainbow
October 2nd, 2010, 03:09 PM
Also, everybody has different communication skills and how they interpret a post. Some people, me included, don't like to post a lot of wordy words. Others who may interpret my posts as being abrupt and read more into what I am saying than what I intended. That is my style, get to the point immediately. I personally like posts that are the same :shrug:.

That's how I am and why I don't usually post in threads like this. It's often hard to tell if the OP is a troll trying to bait us or is really not aware of answers that seem so obvious to lots of us.

I also can never find the right words in the sad threads ....I'd sooner just reach out and give someone a big hug.

Loki Love
October 2nd, 2010, 03:15 PM
It's often hard to tell if the OP is a troll trying to bait us or is really not aware of answers that seem so obvious to lots of us.


Even if it is a 'troll trying to bait' - it's still a chance to educate. Forums are filled with lurkers and those who will NEVER post but only observe and read. Why not take every opportunity to try and educate not only the OP in that case, along with others who may come along and find the thread.

Chances are too, if you don't 'take the bait', the thread will die out quickly after providing some educational guidance and remaining civil. After all, a troll who wishes to bait but doesn't find any often just goes away - but if you provoke and keep poking, they stick around for the fun.


Just my :2cents:

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2010, 03:23 PM
Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.

rainbow
October 2nd, 2010, 03:38 PM
Even if it is a 'troll trying to bait' - it's still a chance to educate. Forums are filled with lurkers and those who will NEVER post but only observe and read. Why not take every opportunity to try and educate not only the OP in that case, along with others who may come along and find the thread.

Chances are too, if you don't 'take the bait', the thread will die out quickly after providing some educational guidance and remaining civil. After all, a troll who wishes to bait but doesn't find any often just goes away - but if you provoke and keep poking, they stick around for the fun.


Just my :2cents:

If it is a troll and you give an educational answer they just answer with something else to tick you off and by that time someone else has joined in and so on until things get taken out of context and then get out of hand. Any lurkers will just roll their eyes at it all and move on to a different thread.


Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.

I thought there was a sticky posted by 14+ that listed the reasons not to breed but a standard post by the admin/mods would be a great idea as would seem more authorative.

Great idea. :thumbs up

cassiek
October 2nd, 2010, 03:55 PM
You don’t have to be in rescue to see the reality of what is happening with the pet overpopulation. It’s all over. On TV, in the news, on line, everywhere. All you have to do is open your eyes.

Thank you! :thumbs up This was my point from the beginning, is where is people's common sense? I know that some think we are expecting too much from the general public to know this information... but I have thought over this the past few days and still argue my original point... you have to have had your head stuck in the sand and living in Antarctica to not have at least seen [B]something in regards to the importance of spaying/neutering. Sure, there could be more... but really do we need to tattoo it onto people's foreheads to get the point across? I still think the information is out there, people just choose to ignore it or disregard it. :shrug: You can present all the information, statistics, etc. you want, but at the end of the day you can't force the information on people... there has to be some responsibility.

Not of puppymills, maybe byb's. You would have to have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years or so. It has been in the news for years.


:thumbs up Thank you. My point exactly.



Internet communication is difficult--someone coming in, uncertain of themselves, getting an abrupt reply, might well misinterpret and get angry. Doesn't mean abrupt is wrong--just means I might have to explain my view more clearly later. That's easy to do in person, but on a BB, you sometimes don't get that chance to discuss things later. There is so much of human conversation that comes from tone of voice and facial expression--none of that comes across on a BB. So I always try to be more careful when trying to initiate a discussion on a BB than when in person. :shrug:

This is so true, hazel. So much of what comes across to others in conversation has nothing to do with our words at all. It's easy for people to misinterpret what we really mean, I think it's important to use the smilies and explain things as clearly as possible to try and avoid this. :)

Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.

What a great idea. That way we can have one standard post back to the OP and nothing further, leave it at that. It wouldn't escalate into anything further. :shrug:

marko
October 2nd, 2010, 04:43 PM
Again, I agree with you that members should be able to state their views clearly. However, I also believe that these views can be expressed clearly without attacking the newcomer. I must say that two very recent threads by newcomers on spay/neuter were handled reasonably well and far better than many I have seen in the past. Could this not become more of the norm rather than the exception?

Nothing would make me happier than if this did indeed become the norm. It would be a MUCH better place around here if it did. More members would join, more people would post more regularly, and our efforts in educating the uneducated would be 1 million times better received.

Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.

This is a good idea, a very good idea and the mods and i will write something up. I hope members will use what we have wriiten in an effort to educate newer members.....but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Just so it's crystal clear, I personally am passionate about spay/neuter. I now personally won't buy from backyard breeders. I respect the work rescuers do immensely. I am proud that rescuers post here and I am super super happy that pets get adopted because of pets.ca

HOWEVER, Dave and I did not start a spay neuter website/forum or an anti-breeding site/forum or a rescue site/forum. The goal of Pets.ca has ALWAYS been general pet information. Always. The PULSE of the forum is the pulse of the forum and it probably represents the majority of active members... that's cool, no issue with that. The 'pulse' makes me proud.... So it's unlikely that breeding posters will get the information they need here. But I will never say that those members are not welcome........and again, if we are nice to them, they might actually think about what they are doing and they might rescue a pet.

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.

I also wanted to thank the members that are trying harder :) :goodvibes:

driver8
October 2nd, 2010, 04:51 PM
Thanks for that post, Marko. I agree.

Thank you! :thumbs up This was my point from the beginning, is where is people's common sense? I know that some think we are expecting too much from the general public to know this information... but I have thought over this the past few days and still argue my original point... you have to have had your head stuck in the sand and living in Antarctica to not have at least seen something in regards to the importance of spaying/neutering. Sure, there could be more... but really do we need to tattoo it onto people's foreheads to get the point across? I still think the information is out there, people just choose to ignore it or disregard it. :shrug: You can present all the information, statistics, etc. you want, but at the end of the day you can't force the information on people... there has to be some responsibility.


Exactly, cassiek -to see it, yes, but to think about what was just on the news and how it applies in your own life and community....

Most people just shake their heads, say "that's too bad" and move on with aspects of life that are otherwise occupying their brain. Just because the info is out there (the truth is out there......) doesn't mean it has been heard.

There is so much info nowadays. People are overwhelmed. For something to sink in, a lot of people do need to be told on an individual basis.

People know there are bad breeders out there, but they don't know the deeper scope of the problem. They just think that breeder they saw on the news is just a "bad" breeder, and "something should be done" about the bad ones. It takes more time and energy to think about the bigger root problems, and there is a lot of competition for people's time and energy these days.

I have to wonder how many of the experts on here who know all about breeders and rescues and pet foods and whatnot - would also get a sigh of exasperation themselves from professionals who work in other areas - their doctor or mechanic or lawyer or elected politicians, etc. "Don't people know ANYTHING?", etc We ALL have "blind spots". :2cents:

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2010, 04:58 PM
This is a good idea, but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Fair enough, but it gives posters such as myself who may have only a minute or so to post (cause I'm at work and I am blunt), to post something.

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.

Puddles too was from a byb. Her father was a grand champion, but her momma was never shown and would not be considered to win. Her mother was owned by a millionaire so her life was pretty, ummmm comfy. I think because momma was owned by somebody quite famous in Edmonton, the parents of the grand champion agreed to the mating. I know from talking to the owner of the father that they do not usually allow their champions to breed with just any kitty.

cassiek
October 2nd, 2010, 09:51 PM
Thanks for that post, Marko. I agree.

Exactly, cassiek -to see it, yes, but to think about what was just on the news and how it applies in your own life and community....

Most people just shake their heads, say "that's too bad" and move on with aspects of life that are otherwise occupying their brain. Just because the info is out there (the truth is out there......) doesn't mean it has been heard.

Exactly my point. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink - eventually people need to realize it for themselves. My argument is that the info is out there, it just isn't heard. I really don't see how these rescues organizations can get the information to people better than what they do now. :shrug:

There is so much info nowadays. People are overwhelmed. For something to sink in, a lot of people do need to be told on an individual basis.

People also need to take responsibility themselves and do some good research - whether that is joining a forum such as this, talking to their vet, visiting a dog show, going to the library, researching on the web etc. Sure, there's alot of information out there. And alot of information that can even contradict itself. Its the individuals responsibility to learn as much as they can and make up their own mind.

People know there are bad breeders out there, but they don't know the deeper scope of the problem. They just think that breeder they saw on the news is just a "bad" breeder, and "something should be done" about the bad ones. It takes more time and energy to think about the bigger root problems, and there is a lot of competition for people's time and energy these days.

If people are looking into getting a pet, which can be a commitment for 15+ years is the time and energy to research all aspects of pet ownership not worthwhile?

I have to wonder how many of the experts on here who know all about breeders and rescues and pet foods and whatnot - would also get a sigh of exasperation themselves from professionals who work in other areas - their doctor or mechanic or lawyer or elected politicians, etc. "Don't people know ANYTHING?", etc We ALL have "blind spots". :2cents:

Yes we do. But I don't choose to medicate myself, fix my own car, or do my own legal work. But I choose to have a pet, and as such since no one else can be a better "expert" than the pet owner himself, you really are the best person to become the most educated you can about your pet. After all, it is you making the decisions for your pet. :rolleyes:

14+kitties
October 2nd, 2010, 09:53 PM
Yes we do. But I don't choose to medicate myself, fix my own car, or do my own legal work. But I choose to have a pet, and as such since no one else can be a better "expert" than the pet owner himself, you really are the best person to become the most educated you can about your pet. After all, it is you making the decisions for your pet. :rolleyes:[/I]


:thumbs up Very well said!

cassiek
October 2nd, 2010, 10:00 PM
Nothing would make me happier than if this did indeed become the norm. It would be a MUCH better place around here if it did. More members would join, more people would post more regularly, and our efforts in educating the uneducated would be 1 million times better received.

This is a good idea, a very good idea and the mods and i will write something up. I hope members will use what we have wriiten in an effort to educate newer members.....but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Just so it's crystal clear, I personally am passionate about spay/neuter. I now personally won't buy from backyard breeders. I respect the work rescuers do immensely. I am proud that rescuers post here and I am super super happy that pets get adopted because of pets.ca

HOWEVER, Dave and I did not start a spay neuter website/forum or an anti-breeding site/forum or a rescue site/forum. The goal of Pets.ca has ALWAYS been general pet information. Always. The PULSE of the forum is the pulse of the forum and it probably represents the majority of active members... that's cool, no issue with that. The 'pulse' makes me proud.... So it's unlikely that breeding posters will get the information they need here. But I will never say that those members are not welcome........and again, if we are nice to them, they might actually think about what they are doing and they might rescue a pet.

I agree with you 100% Marko... I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here... however everyone and anyone is welcome to join as far as I am concerned. :thumbs up

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.

I also wanted to thank the members that are trying harder :) :goodvibes:

We have all made mistakes... myself included. That's not really the issue here... as long as we learn from our mistakes, certainly no one is going to be looked down upon because of the mistakes they have made raising their pets, we have all been there. I myself have purchased a dog from a BYB and had no idea at the time that there was anything wrong with going to purchase a pup that was advertised in the local paper. :shrug: But I know better now, and we will rescue dogs from here on in for life.

:grouphug: :highfive: Good conversation, everyone!

14+kitties
October 2nd, 2010, 10:06 PM
I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here.

Yep, yep they will. We do have breeders, or people who used to breed, here now. They have and will answer breeding questions.

driver8
October 2nd, 2010, 11:37 PM
I don't feel it should be the basic expectation that every average pet owner does tons of research into a subject.

You do that when you have a passion for something.

Pet owners who develop a passion for the understanding of issues will research into breeding and spay/neuter type issues. many will not.

If it is a passion of yours as an individual, great. Other people have other interests and passions that drive them. That's okay too, because in thios world we all have a niche, a place where we can fit ourselves.

Someone who has an interest that is different from yours may be the expert helping you fix your car, take care of your child, sort out your taxes, obtain a mortage. Those things are your responsibilities too, but we all still have experts to help us along. Would you like to be greeted with exasperation at the bank when you ask a question that a banker thinks ought to be basic, but you had no idea??

Love4himies
October 3rd, 2010, 06:52 AM
Knowledge is power.

Like cassie stated, if we can take responsibility for the mechanics of our car, then we probably research anything we don't know, same as banking, legal issues, etc. If I repair my wheel and it falls off on the highway, then we are responsible, if a mechanic does it, he is responsible. An owner takes responsibility for their pets and therefore should be knowledgeable before they start out. If they want further expert info, you contact your Vet :D

As for ignorance about pet food, yes it is huge, absolutely huge, but it is coming out slowly in the news. For the majority of people, we think the "experts" are the AAFCO, and they are monitoring the quality.

BenMax
October 3rd, 2010, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=Love4himies;956337]Puddles too was from a byb.QUOTE]

Don't feel bad L4H - more than 80+% of all animals from rescues/shelters are from ByB's and/or puppymills (petstores). I am being very reasonable and overly generous with my percentage. What people also miss is that these mixed breeds are not bred by reputable breeders at all. They are just people putting one and two together to see what they get. Sorry off topic.:offtopic:

hazelrunpack
October 3rd, 2010, 09:33 AM
Knowledge is power.

Like cassie stated, if we can take responsibility for the mechanics of our car, then we probably research anything we don't know, same as banking, legal issues, etc. If I repair my wheel and it falls off on the highway, then we are responsible, if a mechanic does it, he is responsible. An owner takes responsibility for their pets and therefore should be knowledgeable before they start out. If they want further expert info, you contact your Vet :D

But what do they research? They aren't necessarily asking the right questions (see my comments below) and they wouldn't be coming here if they had all the answers. No one comes into this place with all the answers. And none of the members have all the answers :shrug: It's too much to expect of newcomers.

As for ignorance about pet food, yes it is huge, absolutely huge, but it is coming out slowly in the news. For the majority of people, we think the "experts" are the AAFCO, and they are monitoring the quality.

My point exactly! I would venture that most people have no clue what to even research. Johnnie wants a puppy, so they do a web search and they come up with thousands of links all sounding like they are managed by 'the experts'. If you don't know the questions to ask you can't refine the search. If you can't refine the search, you can't ask the right questions. I would also venture a guess that most people see a link to the BB and discount that link as a source of information, simply because they are still fixated on the fact that 'Johnnie wants a puppy'.

So we can't expect the venturesome newbies that do come in to be all-knowing, or even somewhat aware. And they will ask the same newbie questions. But if we chase them away because we're tired of answering those questions, no one benefits. :shrug:

luckypenny
October 3rd, 2010, 10:01 AM
I was wondering, how about adding a forum just for first time pet owners basic questions? It would be simpler for newbies to find answers without having to peruse the entire board or use the search function (for those that are new to how forums operate in general). Members who want to help can give advice there or provide links to pertinent articles. And for members who don't like to repeat themselves, they can avoid the forum altogether :shrug:.

hazelrunpack
October 3rd, 2010, 10:04 AM
I like that idea, LP! :thumbs up

driver8
October 3rd, 2010, 10:10 AM
I like that idea too.

I don't know if the version that's installed here does it, but I know that other forums that run on vBulletin have had a feature where you can "ignore" certain forums - the forum just doesn't show up in your search when you click new posts. But if you click on it on the main forum page you can still read it. If you had a "newbie questions" type forum, people who get frustrated by the repetition and ignorance can just choose to to read it.

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 10:29 AM
Sorry but I don't think adding a new forum will help with anything. If those people can't research on the web , and are not trying to find their answers here in older threads , you think they will see this new forum for newbies and search in it ? I highly doubt it.

I don't know why we should change the board , I think it will only confuse the newbies even more. :shrug:

I guess I expect too much out of people , people are lazy ! I totally agree with cassiek , infos are all over , there's no excuses !

I started to look into buying my first house in 2002. I didn't have a computer back then , but I did have one at work. I would spend all my lunch hours on the computer , looking for a house , and also , researching breeds because I wanted a dog as soon as I got the house. I was also researching dogs up for adoption , ended up on petfinder and rescues websites , read all about spay / neuter , pet overpopulation , BYB , puppy mills , on those websites. And that was in 2002 !!! It's now 2010 , for me , if you're a dog owner , and don't know about these things , you clearly bought a dog without doing any kind of research first, and to me , there's no excuse for that. :shrug: If I could do it in 2002 , people should know better in 2010 , as there are so much more infos out there now.

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 10:59 AM
I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here.

Yep, yep they will. We do have breeders, or people who used to breed, here now. They have and will answer breeding questions.

You know this actually may be the best solution to the issue..If someone creates a thread asking breeding advice, my honest suggestion is..." unless you have experience breeding or have ANY advice to give on breeding". Just DON'T post at all..The OP isn't asking for spay/neuter advice so members that don't have the info they want...We just need to leave the thread alone.

luckypenny
October 3rd, 2010, 11:16 AM
(I'm smiling cuz I know you're rolling your eyes at me :D) Ok, but....

...while researching breeds, spay/neuter, byb/puppymills, etc., did you research nutrition ie home cooking, kibble, raw feeding? Training methods? Behavioral problems? Every single disease that a pet might suffer from? Allergies? Medication? Every thing that could possibly go wrong? You see, many people normally look for info when things go wrong...everything else they take for granted :shrug:. I never researched any of the above because we had dogs in the past and we never encountered problems. And only 5 short years ago, I didn't even have the internet, I trusted my old vet for info. And what did he tell me? Vet food was best, yearly vaccinations were crucial, and that I should wait until our puppy was at the very least 2 years old before having him neutered. I trusted the vet to give me the right info on certain behavioral issues we were having with our pup...he told me to look up trainers in the yellow pages :shrug:. So how does someone like me, at the time, even know that there was other information out there if I only looked to who I trusted, my old vet?

What I'm trying to get at is, not everyone knows what questions to even ask (like Hazel mentioned) until something goes wrong. And even when one does have the right questions, look at all the misleading info they can receive. We've all experienced that. Sometimes it's much easier and less frustrating (unless greeted with disdain) to just ask other "real" people about their ideas, opinions, advice, and experiences...the kind of support that a pet forum such as this one can provide.

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 12:02 PM
The food questions , I learned about that in 1995 while taking my cats to an holistic vet in Ville Lasalle. :D he taught me about ingredients and how to read them. :shrug:

and yes , I also did read about training and other stuff while I was searching to adopt. What can I say , I know that adopting an animal is a 12-15 years commitment and I wanted to be as ready as I could.

luckypenny
October 3rd, 2010, 12:12 PM
What would be the point then of a pet forum if uninformed/ignorant people (including myself cuz I still don't know everything there is to know about animals) can't come here to ask questions without fear of being judged :shrug:?

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 01:01 PM
What would be the point then of a pet forum if uninformed/ignorant people (including myself cuz I still don't know everything there is to know about animals) can't come here to ask questions without fear of being judged :shrug:?

that's a little overboard don't you think,,i can't think of one thread asking about nutrition,health advice,,training,,etc that has caused an uproar or been closed...The threads where a kerfuffle happen is (gonna put myself out on a ledge here) atleast 99% of the time someone asking advice on either breeding their pet or having issues with the delivery of the puppies/kittens. Hence my suggestion that ONLY the people with breeding/delivery post in those threads. Those that are pro spay/neuter stay clear of them completely.

mikischo
October 3rd, 2010, 01:06 PM
What would be the point then of a pet forum if uninformed/ignorant people (including myself cuz I still don't know everything there is to know about animals) can't come here to ask questions without fear of being judged :shrug:?

Then wouldn't that make it, as someone mentioned earlier on this thread, more like an exclusive club than a pet forum? Sometimes I feel it is getting more and more like that already.:(

This forum is, as someone else on here said, a "goldmine" of pet related information. Contributions have come from many wonderful members through the years.

This is a large forum with new people signing up every day, yet the number of active members seems to continue to shrink, or am I imagining this?

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 01:18 PM
What would be the point then of a pet forum if uninformed/ignorant people (including myself cuz I still don't know everything there is to know about animals) can't come here to ask questions without fear of being judged :shrug:?

We're talking about neutering and spaying here . Not about people asking about dog/cat cancers etc....

Even back in 1992 , when I got my first appartement , when I adopted my first cat Missy , as soon as she was old enough , I got her spayed. And after a few months , I got Dweezil , and he also got neutered when he was old enough.

it's basic animal 101 ! :shrug:

Sew-sew-steve
October 3rd, 2010, 01:18 PM
little off topic, but its been bugging me.

lots'a talk about "trolls" doing what they intend to.
i havent seen any. i have been here for a little over half a year, and i have not noticed any. someone pm me a thread or post it on here to where there were trolls?

Sew-sew-steve
October 3rd, 2010, 01:22 PM
We're talking about neutering and spaying here . Not about people asking about dog/cat cancers etc....

Even back in 1992 , when I got my first appartement , when I adopted my first cat Missy , as soon as she was old enough , I got her spayed. And after a few months , I got Dweezil , and he also got neutered when he was old enough.

it's basic animal 101 ! :shrug:

that was in your case. as many of you already know, different people from all over the world come on this site. and with different places there are different cultures, beliefs, etc..etc.. so acceptance and understanding of information is limited.

you were one of the lucky people who had one thing lead to another in terms of information about the animals.

subtract one of the critical sources of your information back then, would you still have been as educated as you say you were?

mikischo
October 3rd, 2010, 01:25 PM
little off topic, but its been bugging me.

lots'a talk about "trolls" doing what they intend to.
i havent seen any. i have been here for a little over half a year, and i have not noticed any. someone pm me a thread or post it on here to where there were trolls?

Don't apologize for going off topic. This thread has gone off topic a few times already, but I am hoping the results will be a better forum for everybody. As for the trolls, I haven't seen any trolls recently that I can think of either. If I find anything I will definitely PM you the link.

Good to see you posting again.:thumbs up

♥Animal lover♥
October 3rd, 2010, 01:30 PM
a lot of people don't have their pets 'fixed' for many reasons such as breeding or they dont have enough money its kinda like some parents choose not to get their kids braces because its to expensive or they think they dont need to. I have also noticed alot of people of won't have their pet's 'fixed' i have 4 animals 1 cat and 3 dogs the cat and older dog is fixed but the other 2 dogs are not because we want to breed one of them so we're getting one fixed and breeding the other


(Check out my forum 'swollen eye?' in the cat health section)

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 01:40 PM
you were one of the lucky people who had one thing lead to another in terms of information about the animals.



Lucky ? I don't call looking up infos and being prepared "lucky".

luckypenny
October 3rd, 2010, 01:45 PM
a lot of people don't have their pets 'fixed' for many reasons such as breeding or they dont have enough money its kinda like some parents choose not to get their kids braces because its to expensive or they think they dont need to. I have also noticed alot of people of won't have their pet's 'fixed' i have 4 animals 1 cat and 3 dogs the cat and older dog is fixed but the other 2 dogs are not because we want to breed one of them so we're getting one fixed and breeding the other

Ok folks, great practice material. Who wants to be first :D?

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 01:46 PM
so we're getting one fixed and breeding the other




:headslap: I'm out of words !

Frenchy
October 3rd, 2010, 01:49 PM
:headslap: I'm out of words !

Animal lover , please read this : http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=72866

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 01:51 PM
Ok folks, great practice material. Who wants to be first :D?

this is a perfect example of what i was talking about,,,anyone who isn't a ethical breeder,,just don't respond,,,

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=72866

♥Animal lover♥
October 3rd, 2010, 02:00 PM
Animal lover , please read this : http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=72866

Frenchy, we are sure of the dog we are breeding. The dog we are breeding is only going to have one batch of puppies she has excellent vet care as will her puppies we will most likely be selling but one of the puppies when we do sell them we are going to interveiw the person intrested in buying to make sure they are fit to take care of a dog. so the puppies and parents will be very well taken care of

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:05 PM
I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here.

Yep, yep they will. We do have breeders, or people who used to breed, are now. They have and will answer breeding questions.

Sorry 14+ but I don't agree with you here... I really don't think someone who is looking for information of this nature will find what they are looking for. Most of us on here have very, very limited knowledge in this area.

I know we have a few people capable of offering advice in this area, but I don't normally see them appear when threads of this nature are started :shrug:

Those people with advice, it would be greatly appreciated if they would speak up when a thread is started about breeding. They could offer the OP advice, therefore the OP gets the information they are looking for.

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 02:13 PM
the whole point Cassiek is that the people without the info don't need to post in those threads,,then it is up to the ones who can provide the information..It shouldn't be a concern of anyone elses. If someone comes here asking for information on breeding and the actual members with the information don't choose to post there is nothing we can do about it. We can however stop any form of bad feelings occuring with members and new members by just not posting anything if we can't give them the actual information they are seeking. Someone comes in and asks information about how to breed,when to breed,,don't respond with,,spay/neuter your pets,,nothing,,zip,nada..if they come in with a possible problem occurring durring delivery,,only thing i would post would be to go to the vet.

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:19 PM
I don't feel it should be the basic expectation that every average pet owner does tons of research into a subject.

Why not? It's a commitment you are making for the next 15-20 years. You are responsible for another living, breathing thing... why should it be any different then when you decide to have a baby? Hopefully, you prepare for a baby by reading books, maybe attending parenting classes, read up about which toys, cribs, formula etc. is the best

You do that when you have a passion for something. I would hope that at the very least if you have a pet, you are passionate about it. Why else would you want to have a pet?

Pet owners who develop a passion for the understanding of issues will research into breeding and spay/neuter type issues. many will not.

If it is a passion of yours as an individual, great. Other people have other interests and passions that drive them. That's okay too, because in thios world we all have a niche, a place where we can fit ourselves.

Someone who has an interest that is different from yours may be the expert helping you fix your car, take care of your child, sort out your taxes, obtain a mortage. Those things are your responsibilities too, but we all still have experts to help us along. Would you like to be greeted with exasperation at the bank when you ask a question that a banker thinks ought to be basic, but you had no idea??

I'm not arguing that everyone who considers getting a pet research every damn possible disease, food, etc. out there. I thoroughly enjoy learning anything and everything about dogs that I can, so I do. I understand that to most people they don't care to know every little detail about their pet. However, I don't think asking people to look into spaying/neutering is asking that much. :shrug: I argue that alot of information about all things pets (i.e. what kind of food is best etc.) may not be that easy to find or there is alot of misinformation out there (i.e. your vet recommends vet food and you don't know any better). Still, I think that in regards to spaying/neutering... there is tons of information out there and I think to say you had no idea about it is a bull**** excuse. Most of the people I talk to through the HS on the phone are aware of the importance of spaying/neutering but choose not to... for whatever reason. And for those that say they can't afford it... I agree 110% the cost of spaying/neutering is very expensive and surely deters people from having it done... still if you can't afford it, how will you ever afford dog food over the dog's life, vet care, etc?

Regardless, we can sit and debate this back and forth all we want. The point is, there always will be people who are misinformed or uniformed about any topic, and if we can help educate them all the better. :thumbs up

Let's put this thread to rest already.

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:23 PM
the whole point Cassiek is that the people without the info don't need to post in those threads,,then it is up to the ones who can provide the information..It shouldn't be a concern of anyone elses. If someone comes here asking for information on breeding and the actual members with the information don't choose to post there is nothing we can do about it. We can however stop any form of bad feelings occuring with members and new members by just not posting anything if we can't give them the actual information they are seeking. Someone comes in and asks information about how to breed,when to breed,,don't respond with,,spay/neuter your pets,,nothing,,zip,nada..if they come in with a possible problem occurring durring delivery,,only thing i would post would be to go to the vet.

I agree with you 110% Aslan. Which is why I don't usually post anything in threads of this nature :rolleyes: I have no information to offer. I usually can respond to posts of any nature with alot of tact and politeness.

We can't do anything about it, but it sure would be great for those that have information if they could help these users out... after all we are here to help educate, and who better but those that have knowledge in this area to reply? :shrug: I can't force those to reply, but I can just ask :)

Love4himies
October 3rd, 2010, 02:24 PM
Sorry but I don't think adding a new forum will help with anything. If those people can't research on the web , and are not trying to find their answers here in older threads , you think they will see this new forum for newbies and search in it ? I highly doubt it.

I don't know why we should change the board , I think it will only confuse the newbies even more. :shrug:

I guess I expect too much out of people , people are lazy ! I totally agree with cassiek , infos are all over , there's no excuses !

I started to look into buying my first house in 2002. I didn't have a computer back then , but I did have one at work. I would spend all my lunch hours on the computer , looking for a house , and also , researching breeds because I wanted a dog as soon as I got the house. I was also researching dogs up for adoption , ended up on petfinder and rescues websites , read all about spay / neuter , pet overpopulation , BYB , puppy mills , on those websites. And that was in 2002 !!! It's now 2010 , for me , if you're a dog owner , and don't know about these things , you clearly bought a dog without doing any kind of research first, and to me , there's no excuse for that. :shrug: If I could do it in 2002 , people should know better in 2010 , as there are so much more infos out there now.

I agree, I am the same way. There is no excuse anymore, you can find out anything on the internet.

luckypenny
October 3rd, 2010, 02:25 PM
Regardless, we can sit and debate this back and forth all we want. The point is, there always will be people who are misinformed or uniformed about any topic, and if we can help educate them all the better. :thumbs up

Amen....

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:28 PM
the whole point Cassiek is that the people without the info don't need to post in those threads,,then it is up to the ones who can provide the information..It shouldn't be a concern of anyone elses. If someone comes here asking for information on breeding and the actual members with the information don't choose to post there is nothing we can do about it. We can however stop any form of bad feelings occuring with members and new members by just not posting anything if we can't give them the actual information they are seeking. Someone comes in and asks information about how to breed,when to breed,,don't respond with,,spay/neuter your pets,,nothing,,zip,nada..if they come in with a possible problem occurring durring delivery,,only thing i would post would be to go to the vet.

Isn't part of 'educating' these people as well is pointing out the benefits of spaying/neutering? Sure, someone can help them with delivery troubles, etc. but I don't see a problem with pointing out that in the future, they may want to consider fixing their pet? We don't need to be rude about it.

Love4himies
October 3rd, 2010, 02:29 PM
a lot of people don't have their pets 'fixed' for many reasons such as breeding or they dont have enough money its kinda like some parents choose not to get their kids braces because its to expensive or they think they dont need to. I have also noticed alot of people of won't have their pet's 'fixed' i have 4 animals 1 cat and 3 dogs the cat and older dog is fixed but the other 2 dogs are not because we want to breed one of them so we're getting one fixed and breeding the other


(Check out my forum 'swollen eye?' in the cat health section)

I would really love for admins/mods to have a standard reply :( that we had the option to use.

This just gives me pains in the pit of my stomach like you wouldn't believe :cry: :(

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:32 PM
I agree, I am the same way. There is no excuse anymore, you can find out anything on the internet.

My thoughts too... I've had enough of the excuses, and think it's time for people to start taking some responsibility and accountability. But obviously judging from this thread, we are a long ways from that... there will always be people who are uninformed. If we can't provide them with the information they are looking for, we can point them in the right direction. :rolleyes:

I would really love for admins/mods to have a standard reply :( that we had the option to use.

This just gives me pains in the pit of my stomach like you wouldn't believe :cry: :(

Me too. :yell: :( :frustrated:

mikischo
October 3rd, 2010, 02:33 PM
I agree it is probably best to close. I am happy to see that the majority of people who posted here are open to being less judgmental. It is great that more than the usual number had the opportunity to share their thoughts.

Thanks for starting this thread, Cassiek. It got to be bigger than you expected but I believe in a good way.:thumbs up

It's your thread and your decision, if you wish to close it.

Loki Love
October 3rd, 2010, 02:36 PM
Another forum I'm a member of has taken the stance that the forum, as a whole, advocates only responsible breeding. Why not just close down the threads that indicate otherwise? No harm, no foul - just a statement, thread is locked. This would in fact, go hand in hand with being pro spay/neuter and mainly being a pet forum, and avoiding the whole pet breeding, byb questions altogether?

The reality is, as others have pointed out, no responsible breeder is going to come to pets.ca to ask for help - no offense to any members here, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just my :2cents:

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 02:36 PM
Isn't part of 'educating' these people as well is pointing out the benefits of spaying/neutering? Sure, someone can help them with delivery troubles, etc. but I don't see a problem with pointing out that in the future, they may want to consider fixing their pet? We don't need to be rude about it.

but that isn't what the OP is asking in a thread about breeding and unfortunately that is what is going to cause the kerfuffles..yes i agree with you that we can point out the benefits of spay/neuter,,but usually that isn't the information the person wants and usually it will get a little tense...we want them to hear us and they want to breed.

♥Animal lover♥
October 3rd, 2010, 02:41 PM
Another forum I'm a member of has taken the stance that the forum, as a whole, advocates only responsible breeding. Why not just close down the threads that indicate otherwise? No harm, no foul - just a statement, thread is locked. This would in fact, go hand in hand with being pro spay/neuter and mainly being a pet forum, and avoiding the whole pet breeding, byb questions altogether?

The reality is, as others have pointed out, no responsible breeder is going to come to pets.ca to ask for help - no offense to any members here, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just my :2cents:

i strongly agree. a responsible breeder would not ask for help because they should already know what they are doing :thumbs up

aslan
October 3rd, 2010, 02:42 PM
The reality is, as others have pointed out, no responsible breeder is going to come to pets.ca to ask for help - no offense to any members here, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just my :2cents:

Exactly....:thumbs up

cassiek
October 3rd, 2010, 02:45 PM
I agree it is probably best to close. I am happy to see that the majority of people who posted here are open to being less judgmental. It is great that more than the usual number had the opportunity to share their thoughts.

Thanks for starting this thread, Cassiek. It got to be bigger than you expected but I believe in a good way.:thumbs up

It's your thread and your decision, if you wish to close it.

I just think we are going around in circles alot here, and everything that needed to be said has been said IMO :rolleyes: so I am done posting here, I have said all I wanted to.

Another forum I'm a member of has taken the stance that the forum, as a whole, advocates only responsible breeding. Why not just close down the threads that indicate otherwise? No harm, no foul - just a statement, thread is locked. This would in fact, go hand in hand with being pro spay/neuter and mainly being a pet forum, and avoiding the whole pet breeding, byb questions altogether?

The reality is, as others have pointed out, no responsible breeder is going to come to pets.ca to ask for help - no offense to any members here, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just my :2cents:

This is a good idea. :thumbs up I for one, am not against responsible, ethical breeders but like you mentioned, I don't think they are the ones that come on here looking for advice. :shrug: Just my :2cents: and observations. Maybe when a thread of this nature is posted, a "standard" reply can be posted back and then the thread closed?

but that isn't what the OP is asking in a thread about breeding and unfortunately that is what is going to cause the kerfuffles..yes i agree with you that we can point out the benefits of spay/neuter,,but usually that isn't the information the person wants and usually it will get a little tense...we want them to hear us and they want to breed.

I think its still worthwhile after a "standard" reply to also have a link to a good site or article about spaying/neutering. Maybe the OP won't take it into consideration this time, but maybe they will consider it in the future? If that's the case, IMO, we have been very successful at 'educating' this person. And really spaying/neutering do go hand-in-hand with breeding... many breeders choose to have spay/neuter contracts for the litter, eventually end up fixing their breeding stock, some even spay/neuter the young before they go to homes... :shrug:

14+kitties
October 3rd, 2010, 04:21 PM
Sorry 14+ but I don't agree with you here... I really don't think someone who is looking for information of this nature will find what they are looking for. Most of us on here have very, very limited knowledge in this area

I'm sorry cassie. Guess I didn't quite get my point out. What else is new? :rolleyes::p :D
What I meant is we have members here who either bred in the past or still do breed. Lately when new members come on and ask a breeding/birthing/emergency question they have been answered by these breeders/members. So they are finding answers to breeding issues on Pets.

I don't quite see what you were disagreeing with me about? :confused: Don't worry. It's happening a lot lately. :D

Golden Girls
October 3rd, 2010, 04:50 PM
Hazelpack: An OP has just as much right as anyone else to their opinion. But just because they have a different opinion than mine, I don't feel like my rights have been violated. :highfive:

Dave and I did not start a spay neuter website/forum or an anti-breeding site/forum or a rescue site/forum. The goal of Pets.ca has ALWAYS been general pet information. Always.Sounds good :)

14+kitties
October 3rd, 2010, 04:54 PM
Let's put this thread to rest already.

I couldn't agree more cassie.

marko
October 3rd, 2010, 05:15 PM
I would really love for admins/mods to have a standard reply that we had the option to use.

I'll try hard to make that happen this week.

My thoughts too... I've had enough of the excuses, and think it's time for people to start taking some responsibility and accountability. But obviously judging from this thread, we are a long ways from that... there will always be people who are uninformed. If we can't provide them with the information they are looking for, we can point them in the right direction.

It's sad but true, many uninformed people, still. Pointing them tactfully in the right direction imo, is the best thing we can do to try and inform them. We will fail sometimes, but in my heart i truly believe we will succeed more often than we have in the past if the tone is friendly and non-accusatory.

I'd like to thank everyone for this frank, open and civil conversation. It seems to me that there IS the collective will to change the tone around here. I won't use the 'hard week, kitty passed' excuse for much longer, I just wanted to say that the tone/civility of this thread has actually made my week slightly more tolerable. :grouphug:

Thanks again - this thread will now be closed at the request of the OP. If I've misunderstood the request, just PM me and I'll re-open it.

Thx - Marko

marko
October 6th, 2010, 10:55 AM
Just wanted to confirm that we are working on that optional standard answer and it should be available this week.
Thx again - Marko

marko
October 7th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Hi members,

Continued thanks for trying to make our forum friendlier. :grouphug: :goodvibes:
In an effort to do so here is an answer that educates newer members about spay/neuter without rudeness. It is located in both the Pet health forum and the top 16 questions forum. Please feel free to use it as a form of gentle education.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=43483

Many thanks in advance,

Marko