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Too strict kennel licence requirements around GTA?

AnneCS
September 18th, 2010, 08:36 PM
I've been waiting to move until after the supposed housing bubble bursts and then I want to purchase a place where one day I can legally breed dogs within my home, without living in the boonies. I would be small-scale--a hobby toy dog show breeder only focused on improving the breed and producing quality show dogs that meet CKC standards.

Now that I'm looking into it though, it seems like you're required by all of the nearby municipalities around the GTA to get a kennel licence to do this legally... but the requirements for getting a kennel licence seem unreasonable for small-scale hobby toy dog show breeders.

The problem I've run into is that in all of the nearby municipalities where I've been looking (I'm located in Vaughan), it seems like there are strict by-law requirements for obtaining a kennel licence, which you're required to get if you will be keeping more than 3 dogs on your property or in some cases, if you will be breeding any number of dogs. The more I read through them though, the more bizarre it gets. The municipalities have varying requirements, but it seems like a small hobby breeder that might keep 4 toy dogs in her home is subject to the very same requirements a large-scale puppy mill would be. What gives? I would be lumped in the same category as puppy mills according to these municipalities?!

In some cases, you're not even allowed to breed dogs within a human dwelling--you must have a separate building with the appropriate heating, concrete flooring with drainage, etc. Some require the land to be zoned for a specific rural or agricultural use and for the parcel of land to be a minimum of 25 acres, for the building where the dogs will be kept to be at least something like 450' away from any residential building or property line or something like that. I don't want to dig out the specifics right now to double check, but I had checked the requirements for Vaughan, King, Caledon and some other municipalities nearby where I knew some reputable toy dog show breeders were located (and don't meet these requirements from what I can tell).

So I'm frustrated and wondering why it is this way--essentially giving puppy mills the green light and placing unrealistic demands on small scale hobby show breeders of toy dogs?

Has anyone else run into this problem? Any input would be appreciated... It seems like I will have to move so far away from family just to be able to even keep two show dogs legally (I currently have 2 pet dogs--also toy dogs). I'm a very by the books/law person, but this seems so crazy. :shrug:

Love4himies
September 18th, 2010, 08:40 PM
Has anyone else run into this problem? Any input would be appreciated... It seems like I will have to move so far away from family just to be able to even keep two show dogs legally (I currently have 2 pet dogs--also toy dogs). I'm a very by the books/law person, but this seems so crazy. :shrug:

Probably not, this is a pro spay/neuter forum with many members into rescuing dogs due to the overpopulation of them by breeders. My suggestion is to just spay and neuter your dogs, they will be much happier and you don't have to worry about the laws.

AnneCS
September 18th, 2010, 10:04 PM
I currently only have 2 pet dogs--spayed, as they are pets. I'm also pro spay/neuter and rescue as well as very against brokers, BYB's and puppy mills. If this site is generally anti-show breeders, that's really a shame imo, as most would otherwise share the same concerns as you indicate people here have.

14+kitties
September 18th, 2010, 10:16 PM
I currently only have 2 pet dogs--spayed, as they are pets. I'm also pro spay/neuter and rescue as well as very against brokers, BYB's and puppy mills. If this site is generally anti-show breeders, that's really a shame imo, as most would otherwise share the same concerns as you indicate people here have.

Not to start an argument but if you got a license to breed would your breeding dogs not be your pets as well? They would be reduced to just stock? If that be the case what is the difference between you and a byb? And yes, I know you want to breed "show dogs". Would most people who breed show dogs not consider their dogs pets as well? The couple I know who show their dogs and breed on occasion also treat their dogs as their children. In fact they are treated much better than a lot of children.

Love4himies
September 18th, 2010, 10:20 PM
I currently only have 2 pet dogs--spayed, as they are pets.

:confused: If you were to adopt dogs to breed would they not be your pets too :(

Love4himies
September 18th, 2010, 10:46 PM
If this site is generally anti-show breeders, that's really a shame imo, as most would otherwise share the same concerns as you indicate people here have.

Some people give up pretty much their whole lives to rescue dogs and cats, some of them who come from "show breeders". Take some time to scan petfinder and shelter adoption sites, I think you will find them filled with every type and breed of dog and cat. There are just too many pets and not enough homes. IMO, EVERY breeder contributes to this overpopulation. For every dog/cat that is born, a dog/cat dies in a shelter. We don't need any more until all of them have found homes.

Loki Love
September 18th, 2010, 11:03 PM
IMO, EVERY breeder contributes to this overpopulation. For every dog/cat that is born, a dog/cat dies in a shelter. We don't need any more until all of them have found homes.

So if we get rid of ALL breeders - even the ethical/reputable ones - then what happens to the breed standards in general? Do they not get lost altogether? Reputable and ethical breeders are doing it to improve on the breed.

AnneCS
September 19th, 2010, 12:09 AM
:confused: If you were to adopt dogs to breed would they not be your pets too :(

I guess this is just a misunderstanding. I consider there to be either pet quality dogs or show quality dogs. If a dog is only of pet quality (not meeting its breed standard in some way), then it should not be bred. If it is of show quality, it should be shown at least to championship before considering to breed it, so that the breeder then knows it isn't only his or her (sometimes biased) opinion that it meets the standards of that breed well enough to be bred, but also that of experienced CKC judges. Even still it shouldn't be bred until various other conditions are met... screened and cleared of health problems that breed may be susceptible to, a suitable partner chosen, enough loving homes ready for all possible resulting pet puppies to be placed, etc.

If I were to purchase show dogs, then they would be much loved members of my family--same as my two pet dogs. In fact they would live nearly identical lives--except that they would be shown and possibly bred one day.

That is where my concern with these kennel licensing requirements comes into play. I couldn't fathom locking up little lap dogs in kennels in a separate building. It seems so backwards to me for there to be by-laws that prevent breeders from breeding dogs (toy dogs especially) in their own home. I couldn't care less if they would charge an arm and a leg for regulating it. I'd pay for it. I wouldn't care if they'd require even quarterly random inspections... I just would want the dogs to be kept in the best environment they can be--and that is definitely not in a separate kennel building.

LavenderRott
September 19th, 2010, 12:46 AM
You know - it really is sad that the only people who seem to be welcome on the forum anymore are people who rescue. Every single thread with the word "breed" in it is greeted with the same answer - "this is a pro spay/neuter board".

The OP didn't ask about how to breed her dogs. She didn't ask about what to do with her dog that she picked up off the street that she bred and is having a planned litter of puppies. She asked a simple question about license requirements. Not just for breeding but for the number of dogs one can keep. Seems to me, a couple of rescuers have had the same problem recently.

I get the whole rescue thing. I have had rescues for 20 years and I am sure that I will have more of them in the future. I have volunteered at shelters. I have euthanized whole litters of kittens that I helped deliver. I have no idea of the number of puppies that I held while they died for lack of a home. I can tell you right now, the fact that I bought a puppy from a COE breeder didn't save a single puppy at the local shelter. On the other hand - educating the woman I got my pom from about ethical breeding and genetics DID make a difference. She took what I said, did some more research on her own and Rusty's litter was the last litter she bred.

So - instead of jumping to the conclusion that the OP is just going to pump out litter after litter of ill bred puppies to sell to the first person that shows up with a credit card - try being nice.

AnneCS
September 19th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Some people give up pretty much their whole lives to rescue dogs and cats, some of them who come from "show breeders". Take some time to scan petfinder and shelter adoption sites, I think you will find them filled with every type and breed of dog and cat. There are just too many pets and not enough homes. IMO, EVERY breeder contributes to this overpopulation. For every dog/cat that is born, a dog/cat dies in a shelter. We don't need any more until all of them have found homes.

I have found most shelter/rescue dogs to be the result of instant gratification purchases of pets. So they may appear to be purebred this or that, but they result from a puppy mill breeding and were purchased in a pet shop. Or they were purchased as gifts. Or someone started out with the best intentions and contacted show breeders, discovered the prices were on the high side for their liking and that there's a waiting list, so they looked up listings on kijiji or in the paper and purchased a cute puppy from a broker or BYB for half the price, which wound up having costly health problems they didn't want to deal with. Some people will always be like this--making impulsive purchases and not being prepared to deal with what comes. The only way to prevent this will be to stop the sale of dogs and cats in pet stores, outlaw the brokerage of pets, put more effort into educating the public about responsible pet ownership, and come up with stricter laws against BYBs and puppy mills.

Most reputable breeders make an effort to screen buyers and sell their dogs to the most appropriate person, where they trust it will be loved for its whole life. A big part of what they do is educate prospective puppy parents as well. Many reputable breeders also do rescue and have clauses in their sale contracts stating that if at any time the owner can no longer care for their dog, that the dog must be returned to the breeder. It's the responsible thing to do and I wish all breeders would do this.

BTW, I understand rescue work (having spent ~15 years with rescued dogs only) and that you mean well, but I think you and I should agree to disagree. I feel like my thread has been hijacked--not that I haven't participated in that by responding.

mikischo
September 19th, 2010, 08:28 AM
You know - it really is sad that the only people who seem to be welcome on the forum anymore are people who rescue. Every single thread with the word "breed" in it is greeted with the same answer - "this is a pro spay/neuter board".

The OP didn't ask about how to breed her dogs. She didn't ask about what to do with her dog that she picked up off the street that she bred and is having a planned litter of puppies. She asked a simple question about license requirements. Not just for breeding but for the number of dogs one can keep. Seems to me, a couple of rescuers have had the same problem recently.

I get the whole rescue thing. I have had rescues for 20 years and I am sure that I will have more of them in the future. I have volunteered at shelters. I have euthanized whole litters of kittens that I helped deliver. I have no idea of the number of puppies that I held while they died for lack of a home. I can tell you right now, the fact that I bought a puppy from a COE breeder didn't save a single puppy at the local shelter. On the other hand - educating the woman I got my pom from about ethical breeding and genetics DID make a difference. She took what I said, did some more research on her own and Rusty's litter was the last litter she bred.

So - instead of jumping to the conclusion that the OP is just going to pump out litter after litter of ill bred puppies to sell to the first person that shows up with a credit card - try being nice.

Very well said, LR.:thumbs up I have never owned a purebred animal. On a personal level, it simply doesn't interest me to do so, but at the same time I have to agree with everything you said. So far this thread has not run completely amok although it does have the danger signs of heading in that direction. Hopefully it won't.:fingerscr

Welcome to the forum, AnneCS.:) There are a small number of people on this forum who are ethical breeders on a small scale or who have done so in the past. Most of them don't come on here very often. Hopefully they can at some point provide you with some guidance.

Love4himies
September 19th, 2010, 08:42 AM
You know - it really is sad that the only people who seem to be welcome on the forum anymore are people who rescue. Every single thread with the word "breed" in it is greeted with the same answer - "this is a pro spay/neuter board".

The OP didn't ask about how to breed her dogs. She didn't ask about what to do with her dog that she picked up off the street that she bred and is having a planned litter of puppies. She asked a simple question about license requirements. Not just for breeding but for the number of dogs one can keep. Seems to me, a couple of rescuers have had the same problem recently.


Since this is a pro spay/neuter forum, then the chances of people having the answers are slim. This person should be talking to her mentor to get that info.


I get the whole rescue thing. I have had rescues for 20 years and I am sure that I will have more of them in the future. I have volunteered at shelters. I have euthanized whole litters of kittens that I helped deliver. I have no idea of the number of puppies that I held while they died for lack of a home. I can tell you right now, the fact that I bought a puppy from a COE breeder didn't save a single puppy at the local shelter. On the other hand - educating the woman I got my pom from about ethical breeding and genetics DID make a difference. She took what I said, did some more research on her own and Rusty's litter was the last litter she bred.

So - instead of jumping to the conclusion that the OP is just going to pump out litter after litter of ill bred puppies to sell to the first person that shows up with a credit card - try being nice.

Nobody assumed the OP was going to pump out litter after litter. And yes, if somebody wants a dog and there was nobody breeding, then they would be forced to go to a shelter to get one. That would save a life.

FACT: Too many dogs, not enough homes. Fact: Every puppy born, adds to the population of dogs.

Loki Love
September 19th, 2010, 08:46 AM
And yes, if somebody wants a dog and there was nobody breeding, then they would be forced to go to a shelter to get one. That would save a life.

And breed standards end up being a thing of the past.

Love4himies
September 19th, 2010, 08:47 AM
So if we get rid of ALL breeders - even the ethical/reputable ones - then what happens to the breed standards in general? Do they not get lost altogether? Reputable and ethical breeders are doing it to improve on the breed.

I think some of the breed standards are actually hurting some breeds as the standards get more radical and the original purpose of the standard gets lost.

I didn't say to stop breeding forever, that would wipe out all dogs and cats, but to stop until there are homes for the current unwanted pets :rolleyes:.

Loki Love
September 19th, 2010, 08:51 AM
I think some of the breed standards are actually hurting some breeds as the standards get more radical and the original purpose of the standard gets lost.

I didn't say to stop breeding forever, that would wipe out all dogs and cats, but to stop until there are homes for the current unwanted pets :rolleyes:.

But there are ALWAYS going to be unwanted pets and to think otherwise is quite naive. So in a sense, yes you are in fact advocating that we put a stop to ALL breeding and thus, standards are lost, and we have more risk of unhealthy dogs and cats.

Love4himies
September 19th, 2010, 08:54 AM
But there are ALWAYS going to be unwanted pets and to think otherwise is quite naive. So in a sense, yes you are in fact advocating that we put a stop to ALL breeding and thus, standards are lost, and we have more risk of unhealthy dogs and cats.

Ummmmm, I think you are reading something into my response other than what I stated. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I NEVER stated to stop all breeding for all time. :rolleyes:

LavenderRott
September 19th, 2010, 08:55 AM
Nobody assumed the OP was going to pump out litter after litter. And yes, if somebody wants a dog and there was nobody breeding, then they would be forced to go to a shelter to get one. That would save a life.

FACT: Too many dogs, not enough homes. Fact: Every puppy born, adds to the population of dogs.

FACT - people who care more about money then dogs are going to keep breeding. People who run puppy mills and commercial kennels don't give a damn about dying dogs in shelters - they don't care about dying dogs in their kennels! There is nothing you can say or do to stop them from breeding - except educate the puppy buying public. THESE are the people who add to the puppy problem - people who breed dozens of litters a year and sell them to anyone with a credit card.

Just out of curiosity - if EVERYONE did stop breeding and there were no more puppies born until EVERY shelter dog had a home - where do you think you would get a puppy 10 years from now?

Why in the world would the OP talk to her mentor about local laws!?! This isn't a question about breeding - it is a question about legally owning more then one dog. Seems to me we just had a thread here posted by a rescuer who had authorities on her porch, taking pictures through her windows because she had too many dogs. THIS is what the OP wants information about. I sure don't expect my mentor to know answers to questions about that! She lives on the other side of the country!

Longblades
September 19th, 2010, 08:58 AM
Wouldn't it help you to find out who else is breeding, reputably, your breed and see where they have their kennels? Surely many of them have websites that could start you off anonymously? Surely you will be aligned with a breed mentor from whom you may purchase or share your first dogs? Surely you can speak with them at the shows you are going to in preparation for starting your kennel?

I'm in a rural area and I only know of one kennel licensing requirement (of the many I suppose there must be) but it was cause for my neighbours who breed GR to move from a village lot on my street, even though they had 15 acres, to a farm nearby. They didn't have the requisite 350' of frontage.

I think that bylaw is to insulate the neighbours from the business of a kennel. It's probably something the neighbours would like and its probably the reason why poor sad souls bought another lot nearby, which took years and years to sell, built a house on spec. and now can't sell it. It's in between kennels of two different breeds of dog. People don't want to live near dog kennels and my bet is that is where a lot of the rules come from. It doesn't have to make sense or be realistic if your municipal council is beseiged with complaints from the neighbours. And we all know the neighbours don't often make sensible, reasonable demands either.

Loki Love
September 19th, 2010, 09:00 AM
Ummmmm, I think you are reading something into my response other than what I stated. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I NEVER stated to stop all breeding for all time. :rolleyes:

Uhm, no.. you just said we have to stop breeding until ALL shelter dogs and cats find homes. :rolleyes:

Loki Love
September 19th, 2010, 09:01 AM
Just out of curiosity - if EVERYONE did stop breeding and there were no more puppies born until EVERY shelter dog had a home - where do you think you would get a puppy 10 years from now?


Thank you! I'm happy someone else gets it!

14+kitties
September 19th, 2010, 08:51 PM
No disrespect meant for anyone but ... if we went to a breeding site and asked about spay/neuter clinics in the area and which ones are the best in their opinion or we went on and asked about spay/neutering and state how important we feel it is to do so how do you think the members of that site would respond to us? I would venture to say we would hear the other half of the coin with members stating that we were on a breeding site and therefore probably would not get the answers we wanted. :shrug:

Loki Love
September 19th, 2010, 10:08 PM
No disrespect meant for anyone but ... if we went to a breeding site and asked about spay/neuter clinics in the area and which ones are the best in their opinion or we went on and asked about spay/neutering and state how important we feel it is to do so how do you think the members of that site would respond to us? I would venture to say we would hear the other half of the coin with members stating that we were on a breeding site and therefore probably would not get the answers we wanted. :shrug:

But this isn't a spay/neuter site. This is about pets.. and animals. I really think the two views can co-exist peacefully. I'm all about rescue and will advocate to have pets spayed and neutered.. however, that doesn't mean those who choose to breed responsibly or those of us who have bought their pets from responsible breeders should be frowned upon. Perhaps that wasn't anyone's intention - but the underlying message was there loud and clear.

The 2 views can co-exist - respectfully.:2cents:

14+kitties
September 19th, 2010, 10:37 PM
But this isn't a spay/neuter site. This is about pets.. and animals. I really think the two views can co-exist peacefully. I'm all about rescue and will advocate to have pets spayed and neutered.. however, that doesn't mean those who choose to breed responsibly or those of us who have bought their pets from responsible breeders should be frowned upon. Perhaps that wasn't anyone's intention - but the underlying message was there loud and clear.

The 2 views can co-exist - respectfully.:2cents:

Yeah, I somehow knew that was going to come up. You are right. This is not a s/n site. However, as stated in the rules section.....

"Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding."

........ which was the point I was trying to make. Simply that coming onto a site where "most members are very pro s/n" and asking questions about regulations for a breeding kennel is not going to get the answers the OP requires. IMO she would do better to go to a recognized breeding site to get the right answers for her questions. They would be much better equipped to answer her questions in a knowledgeable way. I in no way meant she was not welcome to stick around and join us. :confused:

hazelrunpack
September 19th, 2010, 10:58 PM
Only the OP wasn't asking about breeding, she was asking about animal housing regulations. :shrug: How did what should have been a discussion about by-laws turn into a judgment call about breeding?

I think the OP asked a lot of very good questions about some of the regulations that have sprung up lately in both Canada and the US. Not all the legislation is logical or even addresses the problem it was supposedly crafted to fight. We fought a so-called puppy-mill bill a few years back here in WI that would have likely contributed to the puppy mill problem rather than done anything to mitigate it. That included putting very strict regulations on responsible/ethical breeders along with a fairly large loophole that would have let puppy millers fly under the radar and operate at the status quo. We won that battle and subsequent legislation passed a few years later was much more effective, imo, in addressing the problem at hand. In fact, I know of a few puppy mills in my county that have since shut down.

Perhaps the route to go, Anne, is to gather some facts and formulate suggestions, try to garner some support from the reputable breeders in your community and then approach your town/city governing body about making some common sense changes to some of the requirements.

Love4himies
September 20th, 2010, 08:22 AM
But this isn't a spay/neuter site. This is about pets.. and animals. I really think the two views can co-exist peacefully. I'm all about rescue and will advocate to have pets spayed and neutered.. however, that doesn't mean those who choose to breed responsibly or those of us who have bought their pets from responsible breeders should be frowned upon. Perhaps that wasn't anyone's intention - but the underlying message was there loud and clear.

The 2 views can co-exist - respectfully.:2cents:

I think the the spay/neuter and breeding co-existing would be very difficult. We are humans and many members on this forum are very passionate about the problem of the overpopulation of dogs and cats (as stated previously, give up their lives for unwanted pets). I believe you would end up with a split of people that would come together every once in a while and clash. There is an old saying "Birds of a feather, flock together".

BTW, as far as I know, there is no issue with those who adopt from a rep breeder, or even a BYB (unless they knew better before they adopted from one), so please don't make some members to be this way. And please don't read more into my posts than what I am saying because you could be wrong in your assumptions.

As 14+ stated, and was my intention too, this is a pro spay/neuter site, the OP's questions are probably best answered by talking to the municipalities, other rep breeders in the area or other forums that are not so pro spay/neuter. I wouldn't go onto a pro raw feeding site and ask about kibble. No different if somebody has a health question and we request they seek a vet.

LavenderRott
September 20th, 2010, 10:09 AM
I think the the spay/neuter and breeding co-existing would be very difficult. We are humans and many members on this forum are very passionate about the problem of the overpopulation of dogs and cats (as stated previously, give up their lives for unwanted pets). I believe you would end up with a split of people that would come together every once in a while and clash. There is an old saying "Birds of a feather, flock together".

BTW, as far as I know, there is no issue with those who adopt from a rep breeder, or even a BYB (unless they knew better before they adopted from one), so please don't make some members to be this way. And please don't read more into my posts than what I am saying because you could be wrong in your assumptions.

As 14+ stated, and was my intention too, this is a pro spay/neuter site, the OP's questions are probably best answered by talking to the municipalities, other rep breeders in the area or other forums that are not so pro spay/neuter. I wouldn't go onto a pro raw feeding site and ask about kibble. No different if somebody has a health question and we request they seek a vet.

I think that you don't know any ethical breeders. I have never met an ethical breeder who doesn't have a spay/neuter clause in their sales contract. There were 11 puppies in Stark's litter - he is the only one of those puppies that is NOT required to be speutered at 2 years of age and that is only because I want to show him. There are conditions that need to be met both by Stark (and me) and any potential girlfriends he might have after the age of two.

Also - every ethical breeder I know is active in rescue work - they pull, do temperament tests, transport, foster and provide funding. They also believe that pet shops are nasty places, shelter dogs are wonderful and that spaying/neutering pets purchased/adopted from either place should be mandatory. They are just as active in the rescue world as they are in the show world. They are, however, realistic and realize that educating the public will do more to end the pet overpopulation problem then mandatory spay/neuter laws.

This is a PET forum - not a spay/neuter forum. The OP asked a question about the laws and how she would have to get a kennel license just to add a show dog to her home that already has 2 pet dogs. YOU RESPONSE WAS: Probably not, this is a pro spay/neuter forum with many members into rescuing dogs due to the overpopulation of them by breeders. My suggestion is to just spay and neuter your dogs, they will be much happier and you don't have to worry about the laws. There it was - the very first answer she got. Sorry - but that was so in your face "we don't want your kind here" that I have ever read! AND yes! She would still have to worry about the laws - she would then have 3 dogs and require a kennel license!!

Love4himies
September 20th, 2010, 10:22 AM
I think that you don't know any ethical breeders. I have never met an ethical breeder who doesn't have a spay/neuter clause in their sales contract. There were 11 puppies in Stark's litter - he is the only one of those puppies that is NOT required to be speutered at 2 years of age and that is only because I want to show him. There are conditions that need to be met both by Stark (and me) and any potential girlfriends he might have after the age of two.

You don't know me or who I know, please don't make assumptions ;)


Also - every ethical breeder I know is active in rescue work - they pull, do temperament tests, transport, foster and provide funding. They also believe that pet shops are nasty places, shelter dogs are wonderful and that spaying/neutering pets purchased/adopted from either place should be mandatory. They are just as active in the rescue world as they are in the show world. They are, however, realistic and realize that educating the public will do more to end the pet overpopulation problem then mandatory spay/neuter laws.

This is a PET forum - not a spay/neuter forum. The OP asked a question about the laws and how she would have to get a kennel license just to add a show dog to her home that already has 2 pet dogs. YOU RESPONSE WAS: There it was - the very first answer she got. Sorry - but that was so in your face "we don't want your kind here" that I have ever read! AND yes! She would still have to worry about the laws - she would then have 3 dogs and require a kennel license!!

Once again, please don't read more into my response than what was stated. That was not my intention, nor did it enter my mind. Geesh :rolleyes:

LavenderRott
September 20th, 2010, 10:34 AM
Oh - I am certainly not reading anything into your posts - just going by what you have clearly stated in your own words.

Frenchy
September 20th, 2010, 11:00 AM
I think the the spay/neuter and breeding co-existing would be very difficult.

I totally agree. How can I be pro & neuter & rescue , then turn around and help someone who wants to breed ? :confused: I'm against pet overpopulation , therefor I would NEVER want to help someone to breed / get a license for a kennel :shrug:

I wouldn't go onto a pro raw feeding site and ask about kibble. No different if somebody has a health question and we request they seek a vet.

ditto.

I have never met an ethical breeder who doesn't have a spay/neuter clause in their sales contract.

I know what you're saying but , I've seen a couple of people buying from ethical breeders , saying to the breeder that , no , they won't breed the dog , they'll just show the dog ... to end up finally never or barely "showing" the dog but instead , bred them anyway. :shrug:

LavenderRott
September 20th, 2010, 11:14 AM
ditto.



I know what you're saying but , I've seen a couple of people buying from ethical breeders , saying to the breeder that , no , they won't breed the dog , they'll just show the dog ... to end up finally never or barely "showing" the dog but instead , bred them anyway. :shrug:

Then said breeder isn't doing their due diligence in deciding who gets their puppies. There was considerably more involved in getting my dog then just calling the breeder and showing up with my checkbook.

I completely understand that those of you in rescue don't want to help someone set up a kennel. On the other hand - there is a thread on here that is forever long about a rescuer having issues with by-law enforcement because she has too many dogs. It would seem to me that knowing the laws for having a kennel, and getting that license would save her a ton in fines and stress. I can't imagine the stress of having to hide dogs to avoid fines.

I am also having a hard time dealing with the whole - we don't want you here if you don't spay or neuter attitude that a lot of members seem to have. Not just in this thread but literally every thread where someone new mentions the fact that they have an intact dog. I have been a member here for years and quite frankly - this is one of the least friendly forums I am on.

Loki Love
September 20th, 2010, 11:36 AM
I think the the spay/neuter and breeding co-existing would be very difficult. We are humans and many members on this forum are very passionate about the problem of the overpopulation of dogs and cats (as stated previously, give up their lives for unwanted pets). I believe you would end up with a split of people that would come together every once in a while and clash. There is an old saying "Birds of a feather, flock together".

Then why can so many other forums do it? :shrug:

Love4himies
September 20th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Then why can so many other forums do it? :shrug:

I wouldn't know, perhaps some of the more passionate, caring and hardest working people in rescue are members of this forum ;) I have been a member of a few pet forums and have not come across such hard working rescuers as I have in this forum.

Frenchy
September 20th, 2010, 12:17 PM
On the other hand - there is a thread on here that is forever long about a rescuer having issues with by-law enforcement because she has too many dogs. It would seem to me that knowing the laws for having a kennel, and getting that license would save her a ton in fines and stress.

It's not that easy. I was looking to move last year , called cities first , to find out their dog limit. Here in my area , if you want to get a kennel license , you need to buy a house in an agricultural zone (which is kind of expensive , due to the land) from the pictures I saw , the person you're talking about lives in a residential zone.

Love4himies
September 20th, 2010, 12:20 PM
I am also having a hard time dealing with the whole - we don't want you here if you don't spay or neuter attitude that a lot of members seem to have. Not just in this thread but literally every thread where someone new mentions the fact that they have an intact dog. I have been a member here for years and quite frankly - this is one of the least friendly forums I am on.

This is really getting off topic. Perhaps a new thread is in order to discuss member's attitudes :shrug:

Can you imagine what new members must think about this forum when some of these threads in which senior members jump all over other senior member's posts because they didn't like what was posted or assumed something was said but wasn't the intention, which in turn gets the thread way off topic? Anyways, this is off topic too.

To the OP: my apologies.

Loki Love
September 20th, 2010, 01:27 PM
I wouldn't know, perhaps some of the more passionate, caring and hardest working people in rescue are members of this forum ;) I have been a member of a few pet forums and have not come across such hard working rescuers as I have in this forum.


And perhaps it's now your turn to be making assumptions :rolleyes:

In any case - I'm done with this thread.

aslan
September 20th, 2010, 01:59 PM
To address the OP first,,AnneC,,there is only one breeder on this forum that i am aware of so i really don't think anyone here will be able to help you out with the kind of information you need. The one thing you said that does concern me is you want to breed "toy" dogs..There is no such thing as a " toy" in any breed, just because a dog is smaller than breed standard doesn't make it a toy and there are NO guarantee's that these dogs will not throw pups of standard size.

Now to the rest of the convo..I am an owner of a pure breed and wouldn't trade him for the world as i'm sure the other members here who own them feel the same. This said,,yes i would love to see all breeders stop breeding for a couple of years to decrease the amount of dogs/cats in need of homes. Unfortunately we all know where that would lead. Seriously if you choose to disagree with a member fine,,but come on some of that crap said so far is beyond ridiculous..Oh and for some peoples info,,I have never been treated badly by any of the members here in person or online for my choice to have Qman,,even with most of them knowing he was not snipped until the age of 3,,for good reason. Personally i would love to see some of the breed standards totally revamped before they totally destroy some breeds.

AnneCS
September 20th, 2010, 04:53 PM
Aslan, the Toy Group is a recognized category of dogs in major kennel clubs such as AKC and CKC. I believe you have the terms "toy" and "teacup" confused. The latter is very much frowned upon by reputable breeders. It is generally a term used by unscrupulous BYBs and brokers, sadly attracting people who don't know any better.

I don't know if links can be posted here, so please go to the CKC website and go to CKC Resources > CKC Breed Standards, where you will see the CKC groups of breeds:

Sporting
Hounds
Working
Terriers
Toys
Non-Sporting
Herding

You will see the same breakdown if you go to the AKC website, Breeds > Breeds by Group. This is a standard term.

I snipped this off the Westminster Kennel Club site from their page about dog shows:

TOY: Toy dogs were bred to be companions for people. They are full of life and spirit and often resemble their larger cousins (e.g., Pomeranian as a Nordic breed, the Papillon a little Spaniel, and the Toy Poodle the smallest variety of the Poodle).

Hope that helps relieve you! :)

aslan
September 20th, 2010, 06:32 PM
AnneCS you are absolutely right and i stand corrected and do apologize. This is why one should sleep before posting...:D