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REALLY could use some advice!

cassiek
August 24th, 2010, 12:43 AM
Sigh. :( I am having a tough time with Brynn and really could use some advice, tips, suggestions, anything!

Since I adopted her about a year ago, she has had an "issue" (I suppose you can call it, for lack of a better word), where very randomly she will attack another dog. Apparently this is why she was given up, as she was continually getting into fights in the previous owner's home with one of their other dogs and the two could not live together anymore.

Slowly, I have learned some of her triggers. They include rawhides, bones, or other chews. I have helped this by not leaving chews laying around in the house and only giving them to the dogs when they are in their crates. She does not become territorial over toys. She will however become territorial over another dog's rawhides. For example, she has attacked Furby and Sassy before if they walk by Diesel's kennel and one of his rawhides is in it. I try to put all rawhides up and out of the way when they are out of their kennels.

She also will attack another dog, if the dog displays signs of aggression (i.e. baring teeth, growling etc). I keep her leashed around other dogs that I don't know so I am in control of her at all times. We have stopped going to off-leash parks as of recently, because I don't know what other dogs are like and if they growl or bare their teeth at her, she will jump them.

There is no trend to the dog she attacks. I have known dogs before who can't be around a certian breed or whatever. She has attacked dogs of all sizes, both sexes, fixed or not fixed, and all breeds.

Understanding that behaviour can be linked to health issues, I have had her to the vet several times over the course of the last year, and she has come back with a perfect bill of health. Unless there is a specific disorder or neurological issue or imbalance or something specific I need to look for? I just don't know :shrug:


I am really frustrated. :wall: I am trying to take all precautions possible, as I am very worried that things could become very, very serious (even fatal) if she attacks another dog. It could end up with her being PTS and that's the last thing I want.

I have talked with a few trainers, and understand how to break apart a fight properly so as not to agitate it even further. About a month ago though, she attacked the farm dog where I live. Richard and I tried to throw water, a chair, etc. and finally had to pry Brynn's jaws from the other dog's head (yes, I know this is not a smart move, but I had no other choice, the other dog was screaming). I was shocked by how strongly Brynn's jaws were latched on to this other dog.

This evening, she attacked my oldest for no reason at all. Brynn and Diesel were playing one moment, and all of a sudden she flew out of the room and jumped Sassy. Fortunately, she did not use her teeth, and no one was hurt.

She loves children and has such a wonderful disposition 99% of the time. But I really don't know how to best address this. Obviously I have 3 other dogs, so there is no opportunity for her to be a single dog (which I now realize would probably be the most ideal situation in a perfect world).

Any ideas, anyone? I just don't know what the best way is to handle it... I know a few of her triggers and try to avoid those, but sometimes, like tonight, there is no reason at all. Ideally, I want to try to avoid the incidents from happening in the first place, but sometimes I can't, there is just no sign! I just could not deal with her tonight, so I put her in her kennel after it happened. I know I should not associate her kennel with something negative, but I just didn't know what to do. :shrug: Do I punish her after I pull her off the other dog? I just don't see that remediating the situation.

I should also add, I do practice NILF in my home. All the dogs, including Brynn, sit before they receive breakfast or supper, before a leash goes on to go outside, etc. I make sure that I go out/in the doors first, they don't sleep on my bed with me, etc.

Goldfields
August 24th, 2010, 01:41 AM
Wish I could help you, cassiek, but I don't know what Boxers are like. If cattle dogs have one fight it seems that they always want to fight afterwards, you just can't trust them. But then their fights can be such deadly affairs, being strong biters they cripple or kill if not separated, so in a way I can understand them attacking fast, wanting to get the first bite in and therefore the upperhand in a fight. A kill or be killed attitude. My red dog has never been involved in a fight and is 14 now, so he was never any trouble, thank Heaven. The girls on the other hand, and not just my own, I could generalise a bit and say with this breed, are usually worse. It may be that you might need to exercise her with just one male dog, like I do with Cuddles . Does she like Diesel? There again, I've been told the worst fight is not two females, it can be a male and female fight. So Diesel would need to mild mannered perhaps, like Perkins. I personally don't think there is any easy fix and that these are very dangerous dogs, so you can't rehome them really, and if you don't want to put them down then it's a case of separating them from other dogs they might attack.

TeriM
August 24th, 2010, 02:49 AM
I'm so sorry Cassie, this must be incredibly frustrating.

I'm wondering if perhaps Brynn has some self control issues where when she gets overstimulated then agression is how she handles the situation and/or her frustrations. When she was playing with Diesel tonight was the play quite rambunctious? I'm guessing with two young boxers that it probably was. I would recommend working on a very solid "go to mat" (bed, crate etc) command where you could interupt the play regularly for short time-outs which will help to keep the level of stimulation under control.

The only time I ever have any issues with Riley is when he is super worked up like if we are driving/arriving to a favourite walking area or is he gets over overstimulated playing ball. In those cases before he is allowed to go and play I work through several obedience commands and/or tricks until his brain re-engages. Leslie McDervitt has a book called Control Unleashed that has several types of focus/calming exercises.

I would also suggest keeping a spray bottle filled with water and lemon juice or white vinegar. Spraying that will sting but not harm the dogs and will help to break up any disputes.

I think placing her in the crate after the situation was a good choice. If you do not express anger or frustration she should not make a negative association with that and it will help calm everyone down. I would be sure to make sure that any/all opportunities for resource guarding (rawhides) are not allowed. I doubt she associated the rawhide in another dogs crate as belonging to them, she wants it so therefore she is going to be territorial about it. Every outburst she has makes could make it that much harder to change the behaviour so claim all the rawhides for yourself by putting them well out of range unless everyone is safely crated.

I think avoiding dog parks is probably a very good idea and would also consider isolating her from the other dogs (baby gates?) when you are not at home for now.

Good luck :goodvibes:.

cassiek
August 24th, 2010, 01:17 PM
Wish I could help you, cassiek, but I don't know what Boxers are like. If cattle dogs have one fight it seems that they always want to fight afterwards, you just can't trust them. But then their fights can be such deadly affairs, being strong biters they cripple or kill if not separated, so in a way I can understand them attacking fast, wanting to get the first bite in and therefore the upperhand in a fight. A kill or be killed attitude. My red dog has never been involved in a fight and is 14 now, so he was never any trouble, thank Heaven. The girls on the other hand, and not just my own, I could generalise a bit and say with this breed, are usually worse. It may be that you might need to exercise her with just one male dog, like I do with Cuddles . Does she like Diesel? There again, I've been told the worst fight is not two females, it can be a male and female fight. So Diesel would need to mild mannered perhaps, like Perkins. I personally don't think there is any easy fix and that these are very dangerous dogs, so you can't rehome them really, and if you don't want to put them down then it's a case of separating them from other dogs they might attack.

Hi Goldfields,

I wonder if maybe because of the previous situation in her home, if it has become deeply ingrained in her and whenever she feels as if she may be under attack, or her chews are at stake, she reacts this way. :shrug:

I know in her previous home it was their female American Bull Dog that was the other dog she fought with, not their male Boxer. So I wondered at first, if maybe her reactions were only directed to females that were of similiar size to her. But this is not the case. Her aggression is directed at any dog, any size, any breed, fixed or not. If there was a "type" that she reacted to, it would be easy to avoid, but it's not.

Boxers are quite strong biters too, they have powerful jaws as I found out!

She actually does like Diesel a fair bit, and they have never got in a fight this way. Not to say that I haven't observed Brynn becoming a little aggressive at times when they fight. But, because of his size (he has 20 lbs on her) and how passive and mild-mannered he is, it has never escalated into anything more and I have been able to calm her down first. My other 2 little dogs are fairly passive too, but the difference is Brynn can just jump them and they are down; whereas Diesel has a lot of height and weight on her, she physically can not jump him and pin him to the floor.

I won't re-home her or PTS. I committed to her to life and know that I will just need to find a solution somehow, someway. But I don't see how I can just simply seperate her from other dogs. That's easy enough for other dogs in public, I can just avoid parks etc. but what about the other 3 in my house? I am very worried that she could seriously hurt one of the little ones. :(

cassiek
August 24th, 2010, 01:25 PM
I'm so sorry Cassie, this must be incredibly frustrating.

I'm wondering if perhaps Brynn has some self control issues where when she gets overstimulated then agression is how she handles the situation and/or her frustrations. When she was playing with Diesel tonight was the play quite rambunctious? I'm guessing with two young boxers that it probably was. I would recommend working on a very solid "go to mat" (bed, crate etc) command where you could interupt the play regularly for short time-outs which will help to keep the level of stimulation under control.

The only time I ever have any issues with Riley is when he is super worked up like if we are driving/arriving to a favourite walking area or is he gets over overstimulated playing ball. In those cases before he is allowed to go and play I work through several obedience commands and/or tricks until his brain re-engages. Leslie McDervitt has a book called Control Unleashed that has several types of focus/calming exercises.

I would also suggest keeping a spray bottle filled with water and lemon juice or white vinegar. Spraying that will sting but not harm the dogs and will help to break up any disputes.

I think placing her in the crate after the situation was a good choice. If you do not express anger or frustration she should not make a negative association with that and it will help calm everyone down. I would be sure to make sure that any/all opportunities for resource guarding (rawhides) are not allowed. I doubt she associated the rawhide in another dogs crate as belonging to them, she wants it so therefore she is going to be territorial about it. Every outburst she has makes could make it that much harder to change the behaviour so claim all the rawhides for yourself by putting them well out of range unless everyone is safely crated.

I think avoiding dog parks is probably a very good idea and would also consider isolating her from the other dogs (baby gates?) when you are not at home for now.

Good luck :goodvibes:.

Hi TeriM,

Thanks for the kind words :highfive: I think more than anything I just needed to vent.

That is a great idea about interrupting their play, and she does have quite good manners and listens well to commands (except when she has her mouth around another dog's throat...). I will try that. And your right, they do play quite hard! And I will look into that book, it sounds like it might have some good pointers.

Would you mix the vinegar and water together, or just the vinegar by itself?

Both Brynn and Diesel are crated when no one is home, at all times, entirely for this reason... if a fight happened when no one was home, it could become very serious, even fatal. So fortunately, I am always able to break up the fights right away and no dogs have been seriously hurt yet... I just worry if she gets into a fight with another dog the same size or bigger than her, with the same attitude, how I could break that up without hurting myself?

I will make sure all chews etc. are placed away from the crates when they are out of them.

Thanx again for the tips!

Goldfields
August 24th, 2010, 09:47 PM
I am not putting down anything TeriM has said, but if Brynn is anything like the girls here, vinegar and water won't stop her. Riley , (and I forget what breed he is, sorry), is a male and would not fight like an aggressive female can. Sounds rough but a good way to keep control of cattle dogs is with a stock whip. You do NOT hit them with it! They do not like it bring cracked and a quick light flick around the butt when they are thinking like fighting certainly changes their mind. They can't get out of your reach. Bear in mind too that they have a good double coat. I attended a Shearing Challenge the other day, a friend was setting a world record for shearing non-stop for 48 hours. Anyway, there was whip cracking display put on by a very amusing man and one of his demos was for people droving cattle. He said you know when a calf gets left behind and starts running around bellowing, so mum wants to rush back to it, which means that the mob wants to follow her, well this particular whip crack, one forward, one back and one to the ground is one forward to stop the cow, one behind to settle the calf, and the downward one for the stupid heeler that wants to get in the way. LOL. Anyway, bring a cattle dog up with the whip and you only need to warn them that you'll get the whip and they say okay, I'll behave. I don't think it would stop a bad fight once started, and I still think separating dogs is the answer. Have to go to town now, I'll be interested if anyone has ideas we haven't tried. You have my sympathy, Cassiek, it's rotten when they are so wicked.

cassiek
August 24th, 2010, 10:26 PM
I am not putting down anything TeriM has said, but if Brynn is anything like the girls here, vinegar and water won't stop her. Riley , (and I forget what breed he is, sorry), is a male and would not fight like an aggressive female can. Sounds rough but a good way to keep control of cattle dogs is with a stock whip. You do NOT hit them with it! They do not like it bring cracked and a quick light flick around the butt when they are thinking like fighting certainly changes their mind. They can't get out of your reach. Bear in mind too that they have a good double coat. I attended a Shearing Challenge the other day, a friend was setting a world record for shearing non-stop for 48 hours. Anyway, there was whip cracking display put on by a very amusing man and one of his demos was for people droving cattle. He said you know when a calf gets left behind and starts running around bellowing, so mum wants to rush back to it, which means that the mob wants to follow her, well this particular whip crack, one forward, one back and one to the ground is one forward to stop the cow, one behind to settle the calf, and the downward one for the stupid heeler that wants to get in the way. LOL. Anyway, bring a cattle dog up with the whip and you only need to warn them that you'll get the whip and they say okay, I'll behave. I don't think it would stop a bad fight once started, and I still think separating dogs is the answer. Have to go to town now, I'll be interested if anyone has ideas we haven't tried. You have my sympathy, Cassiek, it's rotten when they are so wicked.

Seperation obviously does help, but it's not possible all the time. I can keep her away from other dogs by avoiding parks etc. but what about the other 3 living in my home? She is crated when I am out, but when I am home I can not hardly keep her crated 24/7. I also hope others reply with some ideas... I hate to use these, but wondered about getting her a shock collar and keeping the remote (or whatever it comes with) with me at all times, and if she starts a fight give her a shock. Does this sound too harsh? Ideally, I want to avoid situations altogether, but it's so random I have no way of predicting when it will happen. But I need her to somehow associate her fighting with negativity.

TeriM
August 24th, 2010, 11:45 PM
I am not putting down anything TeriM has said, but if Brynn is anything like the girls here, vinegar and water won't stop her. Riley , (and I forget what breed he is, sorry), is a male and would not fight like an aggressive female can.

I have never needed to use this on Riley, it is a suggestion from people I know that have other dogs that get into fights with each other. Based on the fact that when Bryn attacked your small dog there was no damage done I would think that she is not at the level of true agression and in that case the spray would likely help. You can also buy a citronella spray that does the same thing.

I really think a shock collar is a bad idea. I am not against shock collars when used properly and with lots of training for specific tasks (hunting, recall, retrieve etc) but in this case I think the collar will likely add to her stimulation level and make her even more reactive.

I think there is probably lots of signs that Bryn is making but you are missing. It can be as subtle as a brow wrinkle, a change in her ear position or a tensing in her body but there will be signs and you need to learn to read them and then to interupt before she escalates to aggression.

I would recommend you check out this website http://www.dogwise.com/ and pick up a few of their books.


ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
Feisty Fido - Patricia McConnell
Mine - Practical Guide to Resource Guarding - Jean Donaldson
Fight - Practical Guide to Dog-Dog Agression - Jean Donaldson
Feeling Outnumbered - Managing a multi dog household - Patricia McConnell

I haven't read the Jean Donaldson books but she is very well respected and I have read several good articles from her.

cassiek
August 25th, 2010, 12:02 AM
I have never needed to use this on Riley, it is a suggestion from people I know that have other dogs that get into fights with each other. Based on the fact that when Bryn attacked your small dog there was no damage done I would think that she is not at the level of true agression and in that case the spray would likely help. You can also buy a citronella spray that does the same thing.

I really think a shock collar is a bad idea. I am not against shock collars when used properly and with lots of training for specific tasks (hunting, recall, retrieve etc) but in this case I think the collar will likely add to her stimulation level and make her even more reactive.

I think there is probably lots of signs that Bryn is making but you are missing. It can be as subtle as a brow wrinkle, a change in her ear position or a tensing in her body but there will be signs and you need to learn to read them and then to interupt before she escalates to aggression.

I would recommend you check out this website http://www.dogwise.com/ and pick up a few of their books.


ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
Feisty Fido - Patricia McConnell
Mine - Practical Guide to Resource Guarding - Jean Donaldson
Fight - Practical Guide to Dog-Dog Agression - Jean Donaldson
Feeling Outnumbered - Managing a multi dog household - Patricia McConnell

I haven't read the Jean Donaldson books but she is very well respected and I have read several good articles from her.

Thanks, TeriM I will look into those. Ya, I am not sure how effective or ineffective the collar would be at this point. I will look into those articles though. I have done a fair amount of research into this over the past year, and am none the wiser regarding any signs she may be giving. I have mainly come to the conclusion that there are no body signs, that she has triggers (sometimes). But I will look into those, I am sure that there must be something. Although, I know the other night, she just stopped cold playing with Diesel and jumped on Sassy, so there were no signals so to speak. But I will look into those articles! Thx.

luckypenny
August 25th, 2010, 12:20 AM
I hate to use these, but wondered about getting her a shock collar and keeping the remote (or whatever it comes with) with me at all times, and if she starts a fight give her a shock. Does this sound too harsh?

A shock collar is sometimes used for severe aggression issues but you run the risk of having the results go either way. Your timing has to be perfectly precise, right down to the exact second. Not even experts can say with certainty that they are able to accomplish this. Either it works or, you've just created an association with severe pain to the object of her aggression. In the latter case, you'd have just about erased a good chance at rehabilitation/behavior modification. Is this something you're willing to risk :shrug:?

... in this case I think the collar will likely add to her stimulation level and make her even more reactive.

I agree completely.

I think there is probably lots of signs that Bryn is making but you are missing. It can be as subtle as a brow wrinkle, a change in her ear position or a tensing in her body but there will be signs and you need to learn to read them and then to interupt before she escalates to aggression.

Again, I agree. It's really important that you are able to interrupt any unwanted behavior before it happens, the tricky part is being able to recognize the signs. My advice is exactly what Teri replied in her first response to you. Lack of self-control seems to be the main issue here. I'd also be willing to bet that Brynn wasn't socialized as well as she should have been with other dogs early on or, she had some negative experiences with other dogs that showed aggression.

I would recommend you check out this website http://www.dogwise.com/ and pick up a few of their books.


ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
Feisty Fido - Patricia McConnell
Mine - Practical Guide to Resource Guarding - Jean Donaldson
Fight - Practical Guide to Dog-Dog Agression - Jean Donaldson
Feeling Outnumbered - Managing a multi dog household - Patricia McConnell

I haven't read the Jean Donaldson books but she is very well respected and I have read several good articles from her.

I've read just about all of Donaldson's books and have to say she's one of the leading experts on dog aggression as is Brenda Aloff. I would add to the list, Aggression in Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention, and Behavior Modification and Canine Body Language - A Photographic Guide both by Brenda Aloff. I find Aloff's books more instructional and easier to follow than Jean Donaldson's but, that's because I'm the sort who prefers detailed explanations and step-by-step instructions :o. The dvd, Dog-Dog Aggression with Patricia McConnell will also be extremely helpful to you (the second part of it deals with dog-dog aggression within the home).

Goldfields
August 25th, 2010, 05:07 AM
Cassiek, I realise you may not be able to do this but with my fighting girls I separated them by having 3 big exercise areas. Ian and I would be in one each, with a yard between us, and he'd have the shelties and Susie(ACD), while I stayed with the other 2 cattle dogs, or vice-a-versa. I actually believe it that maybe Brynn is showing next to no signals before she attacks, I couldn't spot them with Cuddles either, however I can recall one of our dogs, Blue-Boy, sitting in our ute when we visited a friend's farm. He sat very still as we walked out to the ute later, not even watching us approach, looking ahead through the windshield, but I was watching closely and his ears went slowly around to the back, then the minute Marcus touched the door he erupted! All teeth bared, chomping at the side window - they're very protective of (their?) our vehicle. Really scared poor Marcus. So, perhaps it's even that stillness you will need to watch for too. I agree with TeriM and LP that shock collars just might aggravate the situation, it would with a cattle dog for sure.

bluebear
September 20th, 2010, 01:16 PM
Cassiek, Hi, I have not been on the site for some time now. Not sure if you have corrected our dog's behaviour yet or not.

Having 2 new giant breeds has been a challenge in itself. I have had the same problem with my female great pyr. and now with my male almost 17 months now and 101 lbs. all muscle and no respect.

I understand that bryn plays with diesel and has not actually had a serious fight. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have 3 dogs (blue roti/lab, 8 1/2 years old, feels he is the dominate male).

I have a female great pyr. 2 1/2 years old now and she feels she has to protect everything, including attacking any animal with 4 feet and vehicle on 2 and 4 wheels. She is a rescue so has been a chore. Then there is Tank the youngest and the one who is tired of being dominated. by dogs in general.

He has had blue's head in his mouth 2 times now and the latest just last night. Blue was doing nothing we were trying to muzzle him (tank) as he would not let us shave his leg to check out a sore. In the struggle my husband thought he was bit on purpose and of course got angry. When tank does not want something done to him he will use his mouth to grab whatever you have. Mistakes happen.

During the struggle my husband grabbed his neck and hung on as tank was a wild dog on 2 legs and in the process of the struggle they passed by blue and tank just snatched blue's head. Big mistake for tank, (Blue is a special needs dog on thyroid medicine and I protect him dearly). My husband gave up (big mistake for a owner to do) I grabbed his snout and released it from blue's head and then cornered him and just would not let him get by until he was exhausted. Yes he was stressed very stressed as he did not get his own way, almost hyperventilating and I was a bit worried but knew he was not gonna die on me. Tough love!

I got the muzzle on him. Then calmed him down and then took it off. I then decided to try the e collar (from the vet after spaying dakota) as he was still licking the sore. He was hesitant but let me put it on and I left it on all night long. Even though he should have it on still due to the sore I removed it in the morning. He understand's I will not hurt him, they all do. When he goes to lick I say no and he stops.

So this morning I take them for there 6 km walk everything is good and I stop at the river to clean them off and when tanks goes to get into the vehicle he starts growling at the other 2 dogs, I hear blue growling at him. Well needless to say I was not a happy camper and pushed blue back out of the way and doesn't he growl, go figure my gentle blue growling at me, now I'm not happy and have discovered maybe blue is being nasty. So I told tank and blue no enough and repeated it. Tank jumped in and there was no fight just a growl as to say I'm coming in. Yes I was concerned as the vehicle is small and if a fight were to break out I would have to jump in no matter what. But I was very stern when I said enough. I have even growled at them and it worked.

My female Dakota acts worse but her bite is not like Tanks, she does not like even a human hand in her mouth, so one less worry. She has attacked many dogs and some have fought back though. I have to keep her leashed off the property, however on the property she will act crazy when people, dog, motor bikes, vehicles go by. We tried the water idea as she is terrified of water and will not even go into puddle's little own the river, but the adrienalien is pumping so high it does not phase her even though she squints when we used it. Needless to say the water failed us, best have a fire hose that sends her off her feet.

So I truly play the dominate role ALL THE TIME NOW! No letting something small get by even coming to me when not called. I say off or give them the cesar bite in the neck and chhhh word.

What I do now is when tank and dakota play they will start to get rough or dakota will flip over and tank steps over her. I stop it immediately, I do not mind catch me if you can games (chasing each other and playing tug a war, which only the boy's do) but dominating play I will not put up with anymore as this is the start of it. I feel if I put a stop to it I am boss and it has helped a lot as they are listening better when I say no, cause I know that they know the words and are just challenging me. Dakota has gotten aggressive with Tank a couple of times cause tank just won't stop playing. A lot of stamina. So that is where I come in and stop the play when I hear them. If my dogs are only playing there is no loud noises coming from them only when one is being bad. It's hard to describe the noise kinda growling or tank will bark for instance (the attention bark). That is a sign also.

If they disobey and not comply after the first command, I put the one who is bad in an area where they cannot see us at all or anything but the washer, dryer and walls. They hate this with a passion and after a 1/2 to 1 hour I let them out but in the meantime I play like crazy with the other 2 and let the bad one hear it. They learn quickly as they hate to be left out, especially when it rarely happens. We are usually alway's together.

I started with 10 minutes at first and then 20 and so on up to 1 hour. Once I forgot blue in the bedroom for a couple of hours maybe even 3 hours, years ago, he is the best behaved dog I have had. Now these are dog's that are with me 24/7 as I am a stay at home wife now. If I leave I take one or 2 dogs or I also have taken 3, if I have to go into town for a small trip. I use to worry leaving them all together but have no problems after taking control. I use to put tank behind the baby gate when I left cause he would just bother dakota so much she would get mad and bite him and I did not want him hurt as a pup and blue also bit him a couple times and left scabs cause he did not want to be bothered. I had to remember that I wanted tank not the other dogs so I will train him and care for him.

I decide who needs to take time out and who can come with me. Even though blue is a good as gold he will stay home and have no problem with it if I take Tank or Dakota and vice versa. I will admit Dakota say's a lot when I leave as she does have a fear. This is what I feel her problem is a fear of being bitten first so she dominates first to let the other dog know she is boss or not afraid to bite. I let her know this is not acceptable, another way is when I have gone to the park if she is negative she goes back into the SUV acting like a wild dog and does not come with us. Sure I make the walk short but we still go out of site.

I understand a pack animal protecting there pack as she is a female and my first by the way and the males territorial but I really let them know this is my territory and I will protect them if need be and this means from each other.

I would try time out in the bathroom or something not the crate as she is use to it. I use a baby gate and just lean it to block an area. Also stop any rough play with each other. My dog's know the word play and love the word but they seem to appreciate me telling them to stop when rough play starts. It's funny as they just stop and look at me and then walk around panting and one may come to me and the other get a drink and then they lie down and rest for a few minutes or more. They may start up again and may not if things were starting to get bad. Only they really know. Hope this helps and your not alone.

I also agree that when I get a dog they only leave one way. Remember Tough Love!

I have a few pictures of tank and dakota playing and it was getting rough even though it did not look like it the noise was starting as you can see dakota's teeth also.