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Biting dog

Debbie and Fred
September 10th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Our 5 month old chow-husky female bites. She usually does it in playfulness or if we try to put her outside. Last night, however, she bit my son badly. She did this because she was enjoying her bone. what should we do?

Lucky Rescue
September 10th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Hi! You've posted this question 4 times now and having multiple threads on the same topic is confusing to people.

I replied to you in Breed Discussion.:)

Debbie and Fred
September 10th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Sorry, I just joined today and have No clue how this works... I guess I was looking for a breeding answer in the Breeding posting and a training reply in the Training posting, if that makes any sense.
This is a huge problem for us and one I am feeling strongly about. Every time I look at my son's bitten face, I have second thoughts, so you could imagine why I am desperately searching for info and answers to my questions on her breed and how to properly train her.
Also, we've had severe problems with another puppy before (long story!) and this only adds to my concern... I just want a good dog!

Angelwolf
September 13th, 2004, 09:35 PM
I will tell you... to get a "good dog" takes a lot of training. they don't just come that way... believe me!

Was your son trying to take away the bone? Does your dog let you take its food dish away while it is eating? If you answer yes to these...either one... you need to get your dog to an obediance school. Either that or start reading a lot of dog training books as I have. I have never taken any dog to puppy training, obedience school or any thing and have always found a positive way to work through thier problems. It just takes a lot of time.

I have had a dachshund and a shepard/husky mix before (both lived to be 15 and we put them down last year) and they never went to a school either. The dachshund snapped when irritated with kids, but the mix was sooooo patient. My hubby is dog sitting a doberman (5 months old too) and I think that's why my dog snapped. She was indeed enjoying a bone when my son approached her and she bit him...badly. The doberman is always trying to take her food, her treats, her toys, ect... Maybe this didn't help. However, I also believe that she is, by nature, somewhat aggressive, and that scares me. I love her, she is part of our family now, but I don't know what to do... Any suggestions?

Spoiled
September 17th, 2004, 06:31 PM
First of all, don't give your dog bones if they are aggressive.
Second, make sure your dog knows your son, you, and everyone in your family is boss over him.
Third, take him to obedience classes.
Fourth, Don't EVER let your son tease him.

LavenderRott
September 17th, 2004, 10:47 PM
If your dog bites you when it is playing or when you are trying to make it do something it doesn't want to do, then you have allowed him to become the alpha in your family pack. No bite should have been taught when this dog was a young pup.

You pretty much have two options.

Option 1: Find a good obedience instructor and get this dog into a class.

Option 2: This dog bit a child. If you do not have time and money to put into correcting this problem the dog needs to be put to sleep.

DO NOT rehome this dog! To rehome a dog with a serious bite history (which your dog now has) is the single most irresponsible thing anyone can do.

I haven't read LR's response so I have no idea what she told you you should do. What ever it is had better be serious.

Copper'sMom
September 24th, 2004, 03:34 PM
RULE NUMBER 1

Never leave your children unattended around a dog or any animal for that matter.

Huskies are known for being very possesive over food. Make sure you teach your son as well to stay away from the dog when she has anything in her mouth. If the dog has a bone, give it to her in a place where she will not be disturbed.

Be sure to train your dog so that she knows debbie, fred and son are alpha dogs- not her. I posted a reply somewhere else about biting you should read it. I'll tell you where it is when I find it!!

chico2
September 24th, 2004, 03:42 PM
I am not a dog-owner,but have the dog put down because a boy teased him and tried to take his bone away? LavRott,is that not a little unfair?
I think the boy needs a lot of training around the dog and never to bother the dog if he's eating,even a dog needs privacy at times.

TalonsMa
September 24th, 2004, 03:49 PM
I am not a dog-owner,but have the dog put down because a boy teased him and tried to take his bone away? LavRott,is that not a little unfair?
I think the boy needs a lot of training around the dog and never to bother the dog if he's eating,even a dog needs privacy at times.

I agree 100%...

mastifflover
September 24th, 2004, 04:00 PM
I am sorry but kids tease and the dog pays the price sorry that does not fly with me. Your son also needs to learn the rules of being with a dog if you did not teach your dog to let you take away there food or toys with no reaction then you now have to teach your son to leave the dog alone while it is eating or chewing a bone until the time that you feel that he is well enough trained that you can take his food and toys away with no repercussions. Sorry but I have seen more dogs put to sleep because owners dont train the dog and the kids.

Mysts38
September 24th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Children need to be trained along with the puppy..when puppy is brought home,rules need to be set for the safety of both the kids and the pup.

Children AND dog need to learn whats acceptable behaviour and what isnt..I have always trained my dogs to learn to accept everyone in the house handling his food,bones,toys etc....But on the same hand...my kids were also taught that when Cujo had a special treat,they were to leave him alone to enjoy it.

Pups of this age can have their bad behaviours turned around,but it takes time and training for all the family..
Really does sound like pup is biting out of dominance..and he needs to learn that he is the lowest in the household pack

If you want to keep this pup,then I do suggest you get him to a qualified puppy training class..good luck!

Writing4Fun
September 24th, 2004, 08:26 PM
I am not a dog-owner,but have the dog put down because a boy teased him and tried to take his bone away? LavRott,is that not a little unfair?
I think the boy needs a lot of training around the dog and never to bother the dog if he's eating,even a dog needs privacy at times.
Sorry, Chico2, but I have to disagree on this one. Mysts is right - children and dogs need to learn to respect one another. However, I don't think it's right to say "well, teach the child to leave the dog alone". Let's face it - we all try to watch the children and dogs 100% of the time, but that isn't always possible. The phone rings, you run into the other room to grab the cordless, and in the two seconds it takes you to get back - BAM! That's why they're called "accidents", right? You can't expect a 2-yr old to understand that it's ok take the ball from doggie's mouth, but not the bone. I expect my dog to allow any member of my family to take anything out of her mouth at any time. She responds to commands from my 5 yr old without hesitation. If she were to agressively bite anyone in my family, I'd never be able to trust her again. And what kind of life would that be for either of us? That's just my two cents.

chico2
September 25th, 2004, 07:09 AM
Sorry if I did not get my point across,I objected to LavRott's suggestion to have the dog put down,this dog needs training,but so does the child.
Of course the safety of my children would be the first of my concerns,as far as I know,Huskies are temperamental very active dogs and apart from training the dog,you should also make sure your child knows certain boundaries,any dog can be unpredictable around small children and no 2yr old should ever be left alone with a dog.

Mysts38
September 25th, 2004, 07:28 AM
I agree as well.you should never leave a dog and child alone....even if you think its the nicest dog in the world...

I dont agree about putting the dog down...he can be redeemed..but its gonna take time and serious training

LavenderRott
September 25th, 2004, 07:31 AM
Please don't misunderstand. I think that training of both dog and child is paramount. But I also think that spending two minutes "training" is what most people spend trying to fix these problems and if that is the case here, then yes, the dog needs to be pts.

It is grossly irresponsible to rehome a dog with a bite history. Especially one that has snapped at or bitten a child.

Lucky Rescue
September 25th, 2004, 09:59 AM
Since in another thread, the original poster states that the child was left alone with the puppy, there is no way to know what happened and I don't think anyone should recommend killing a dog under these circumstances.

I'm always reminded of the couple who took their adult Lab to be killed after the dog badly bit their 18 month old child, who was left alone with the dog.

After the dog was dead, the vet saw a pen sticking out of the dog's ear. It had been jammed right through the eardrum.

Any dog (or human) would have to be comatose to not react to sudden and excruciating pain.

melanie
September 25th, 2004, 05:22 PM
it does not matter what the age of the child, they should all be able to understand you never ever go near a dog when it is eating something, i have taught all the kids that this is the cardinal rule of knowing a dog. my 2yo neice understands this one big time, her mother and i have taught her that you dont do it, she gets in trouble if she is ever seen near the dog eating (yes i always keep an eye on charlie when she is eating, at all times i know where she is and wehre the kids are, but she is always seperated from the kids anyway), it has worked for us and none of the kids go any where near her when she eats. i think all kids can be trained to understand this, charlie a GSD has lots of kids around and in 8yrs there has never been an incedent.

Writing4Fun
September 25th, 2004, 05:33 PM
In the parents' defense, seeing your child in pain and covered in scars will usually promt a knee-jerk reaction. One that they surely regretted later (I know I would have been mortified). It is a horrible story, however, and I'm wondering what such a young baby was doing with a pen in the first place?!

There's a world of difference between a dog that bites out of pain and one that displays agression and dominant behaviour. I'd be curious to know what the OPs final decision was.

I'm not sure if I wholeheartedly agree with LavRott's comment about having the pup pts. I can see where she's coming from, though. The pup has a bite history. If the owner were to give her up for adoption, who's to say that the rescue or shelter would ensure that she went to a home that could handle her, and one without young children? I know I'd be pretty ticked (to put it mildly) if I adopted a dog which bit my child, and found out after the fact that the reason it was given up in the first place was because it had already bitten someone else.

Writing4Fun
September 25th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Sorry, Mel. I have to disagree with you a little on that one. We once knew a Dobi named Red Sun. Beautiful dog. And very well behaved. The family's toddler was able to approach him when he was chewing on a bone, take the bone from his mouth, play with him a little, and then walk away unscathed while Red returned to his bone. My previous dog, Murphy, was also that way with children, even though we didn't have any for the first 8 years of her life. That is the kind of relationship I want to have with my dog. I don't want to be on tenterhooks every time the dog is eating or is given a treat, wondering if the baby is crawling too close and might be considered a threat. I'd have ulcers for sure!

Besides, it's been my experience that the dog understands me and responds to my commands waaay better than the kids ever have!! :D

glasslass
September 25th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Keep in mind this is just a 5 mo. old puppy! Yes! Training for all is needed - the adults as well!

Angelwolf
October 1st, 2004, 04:05 PM
I am not a dog-owner,but have the dog put down because a boy teased him and tried to take his bone away? LavRott,is that not a little unfair?
I think the boy needs a lot of training around the dog and never to bother the dog if he's eating,even a dog needs privacy at times.

Thanks, Chico... I thought putting our Gaby down instead of rehoming her was a bit harsh, too (I have changed my user name and am now angelwolf! :)
However, my son, teasing or not is only 18 months old and if you've ever had a toddler, no is not their favorite word! So, we take the blame completely, it was not our son's fault nor our dog's (in our eyes)...
It's been about a month since the incident and the pup has been fine with our baby... Now she has her treats in her cage and we have taught her to be less aggressive when eating by putting our hands in her food while she is eating-seems to be working.
AND, we are teaching our children to be respectful or animals as well...

Angelwolf
October 1st, 2004, 04:34 PM
Since in another thread, the original poster states that the child was left alone with the puppy, there is no way to know what happened and I don't think anyone should recommend killing a dog under these circumstances.

I'm always reminded of the couple who took their adult Lab to be killed after the dog badly bit their 18 month old child, who was left alone with the dog.

After the dog was dead, the vet saw a pen sticking out of the dog's ear. It had been jammed right through the eardrum.

Any dog (or human) would have to be comatose to not react to sudden and excruciating pain.

Luckyrescue and Others who have kindly put in their two cents:

I appreciate the replies, the advice, and even the concern you have shown, but I think you need to hear the situation before judging us, our baby, or our dog(s)... First of all I was in our basement doing work while my husband was upstairs with our 18 month old son and the two 5 month old pups. I had given them each a bone outside (which they must have brought inside). Literally, 2 minutes after I had gone downstairs, my hubby fell into a light sleep on the couch and I then heard the terrible scream. I ran upstairs to my toddler who was covered in his own blood. Gaby was under the table, and Cognac was lying down. I noticed the bone by Gaby and along with her guilt stricken face, I knew it was her. We rushed the baby to the hospital where the Dr cleaned him up and then gave us a pres. for antibiotics. He also has to see a plastic surgeon next week to see if his face will scar badly.
Now, Ok, my husband shouldn't have fallen asleep, and yes, I should have given them their bones in their cages ONLY -- Lessons learned. But to blame my inocent child or to say that we should train HIM better, is a bit too much!!! He isn't even 2 yet, but I still try to teach him how to handle our two dogs, two cats, bunny and fish in a loving and respectful way. Toddlers aren't fond of the word NO, and they learn best through imitation, so now we make sure that he SEES the right way of treating animals through us (even when discipling them) and our older son, who is 8. Rehoming Gaby was at a time a possibilty ( to a couple without young children), but putting her to sleep was NOT an option for us. Now, as our son's face is healing and our trust in Gaby is slowly returning, we love her as much as ever and plan on keeping her and will be training her ourselves with the help of a dog trainer friend.
This big, long explanation was just to clarify some BIG misjudjements and misunderstandings, which I hope it did. One of you (must have been a parent too) said it perfectly before--- Things, bad things happen---they are called accidents.... Thanks again to all... Deb and Fred and kids

heidiho
October 1st, 2004, 04:35 PM
Well we dont know if she is only gonna spend 2 minutes training the dog,lets not condmen her without knowing.......

chico2
October 1st, 2004, 09:28 PM
Angelwolf,thank's for letting us know of your progress and I am happy you decided to keep Gaby and give her another chance,hopefully there will be no more serious problems.
Good luck to the little tyke and lets hope there will be no scarring from his ordeal.It sounds to me you have your hands full with 2 dogs,2cats,2 kids and one husband and you deserve a medal for sure :D

Lucky Rescue
October 1st, 2004, 09:40 PM
In no way am I judging or condemning you, and I don't know how you got that from my comment. I understand the child was left alone with the puppy accidentally. Nowhere did I place blame. I know very well things can happen in a split second.

I was merely explaining why I didn't agree that this puppy should be killed when no one knew the circumstances of the bite.

I put in my "two cents" because advice/opinions were being asked for. :confused:

Anyway, I'm glad things are working out.

Angelwolf
October 2nd, 2004, 07:56 AM
In no way am I judging or condemning you, and I don't know how you got that from my comment. I understand the child was left alone with the puppy accidentally. Nowhere did I place blame. I know very well things can happen in a split second.

I was merely explaining why I didn't agree that this puppy should be killed when no one knew the circumstances of the bite.

I put in my "two cents" because advice/opinions were being asked for. :confused:

Anyway, I'm glad things are working out.

Chico,
Thanks for the reply and I appreciate the comments you've made! :)
Luckyrescue,
Maybe it was because you mentioned to the others that our son was "left alone" (not totally true) and then gave the pen in the ear example from another couple that bothered me, I'm not sure... I think it gave the impression that we were like this couple, even if your point was that Gaby shouldn't be PTS (I truly appeciate that comment, however!) I also thank you for the first bit of advice you'd given us about putting them in their cages when chewing a bone, ect. We have been doing that, among other things which has been helping tremendously. I just don't like being thought of as an irresponsible mom or pet owner!
DEb and Fred (Angelwolf)

Angelwolf
October 2nd, 2004, 08:07 AM
Please don't misunderstand. I think that training of both dog and child is paramount. But I also think that spending two minutes "training" is what most people spend trying to fix these problems and if that is the case here, then yes, the dog needs to be pts.

It is grossly irresponsible to rehome a dog with a bite history. Especially one that has snapped at or bitten a child.

Dear LR,
I hope you've read my general message and know that we did not and never even considered putting Gaby to sleep because she snapped once. We would have rehomed her (ourselves, not through an SPCA) and would have made sure she was not homed with young children such as mine. I think killing her would have been the easy way out and that rehoming her or working with her ourselves would have been the more responsible thing to do!!! Secondly, we spend WAY more than 2 minutes a day training her and our doberman- and they are truly both very good pups, considering their age.

Angelwolf
October 2nd, 2004, 08:09 AM
Keep in mind this is just a 5 mo. old puppy! Yes! Training for all is needed - the adults as well!

Yes, training is always needed when bringing a new pup or pups into a home, which we are indeed doing!

poohbear123
October 2nd, 2004, 09:28 AM
Could it have been that the other dog tried to take the bone and your son was caught in the middle? And he never did anything to the dog? There is no way that you can supervise a dog and child every minute of every day in your home and I think that if you have a dog that is not safe to be around children than you should not have the dog. Growing up we have always had dogs and never were any of us or my nieces or nephews bitten. Your son is very young and his respect for the dog and the dog for him will grow has he does. Like you said no one was there so we don't really know what happened but maybe your son did nothing to the dog at all and ended up in the middle. Any ways just a thought....I am happy to hear everything is good now :)

LavenderRott
October 2nd, 2004, 09:28 AM
I am very glad to hear that you are seriously training this dog and things are going well.

Too often you will find that people come to forums like this, with problems like this and make excuses for the dog. They avoid training because they just don't want to put forth the effort and/or they put an add in the paper that just says free to good home. Many are dropped off at animal control as strays and the dog endangers someone else.

I DO NOT think that every dog that bites, no matter what the reason, should be put to sleep. I do think that if a dog has bitten, that needs to be a serious warning and some serious steps need to be taken.

I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that you are making the commitment to this dog instead of taking the easy way out. :D

Angelwolf
October 17th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Gaby is doing very well, in fact, she seems really docile since the incident happened... She is even more protective of our baby than before. She won't let the other dog near him! I think it's cute, but I wonder why she is like this now?
On another topic, we are having trouble training the doberman... He will finish his food then head to the other side for Gaby's. He also ruined our couch by peeing on it twice. Any suggestions?

Angelwolf

melanie
October 18th, 2004, 12:14 AM
quote'Sorry, Mel. I have to disagree with you a little on that one. We once knew a Dobi named Red Sun. Beautiful dog. And very well behaved. The family's toddler was able to approach him when he was chewing on a bone, take the bone from his mouth, play with him a little, and then walk away unscathed while Red returned to his bone. My previous dog, Murphy, was also that way with children'

:eek: :eek:

sorry but that has freaked me totally out, W4F are you seriously saying that you allow small children to approch your dog and take food from it, or you would allow a toddler to approach a big dog such as a rottie and take its food?? and do these children understand that you cannot do that with other dogs?? i teach the kids to stay away from her, yes she is good girl but i odnt want them thinking that all dogs are like charlie and they can take their food away. when i teach the kids about charlie i am teaching them how to treat all dogs and how to respect all dogs and the different ways we communicate.

i personally would rather teach kids to respect my dogs space than have their faces torn off by another dog because they could do it with charlie, just imagine that little toddler who taks the bone from the rottie trying that with another dog, that to me spells disaster.. and i personally believe it is teaching the wrong thing and very irrisponsible, in my country such behaviour may get the parents in some serious trouble esp if a passser by or neighbor saw it.

and i am not on tenderhooks when she is feeding, she is in another area from the kids that the children cannot get to without me. and as any responsible carer knows, you should always know where you babies, toddlers and dogs are. it is against the law here to leave a child under 12yo alone with a dog and if anything happened i will be charged with neglect etc. these type of laws have reduced the incedence of dog attack on small children and are very effective.

and if you can teach a child the word 'no' that is how you start training a child to handle dogs. if my neice attempts to hurt my dog she gets a big no and a bit of a growling from us and is removed form the game for a few minutes. just like dogs she associates the action of hurting the animal with disaproval.

and when she was a crawling babe, charlie was by my side at all times as it is a legal requirement here and charlie is always with me anyway.

oh and my dog is very well trained and i trust her and she listens to me, but she is a dog which is still an animal.

so if you want your kids to be taking bones of big rotties go ahead, i just pray it does not go bad, as many of us know, it often doesnt matter till it really does matter.

Writing4Fun
October 18th, 2004, 06:40 AM
Melanie, I'm not suggesting that my children routinely remove food from my dog's mouth. I was only trying to make the point that I need to be able to trust my dog not to consider my children a threat.

We try to be there at all times, but in the split second that I might turn my back to answer the phone, I need to know that my dog will not object if the baby happens to crawl too closely.

I don't believe the dog should be separated while eating. Besides, we don't have that big of a house and it's of the "open concept", so putting up barriers while the dog is eating isn't really an option. And I don't like feeding her outside because it might attract unwanted attention from other critters (there are foxes and raccoons nearby, and a black bear was recently sighted as well :eek: ).

Obviously, if another dog is present, the kids and dogs are monitored 100% of the time, or else they are separated. My children understand the word "No", but that doesn't mean they listen to it all the time. ;)

chico2
October 18th, 2004, 06:43 AM
Melanie,very well said :thumbs up

badger
October 18th, 2004, 07:54 AM
I thought so too. Maybe you could post the Australian legislation on dog attacks, etc. I like that they charge the PERSON with not supervising any interaction between child and dog, that is exactly right. Maybe we could send a copy to Bryant...

Writing4Fun
October 18th, 2004, 08:10 AM
So you think that Debbie and Fred (the original poster) should be charged with negligence?

melanie
October 18th, 2004, 04:36 PM
i never said that, and that is not my descision or my issue to judge, that is why we have laws, it is up to the courts to decide that.

i will find a copy of the act today for you guys to look at.

W4F i do understnad what you are saying, i trust charlie and know she would never hurt the kids without great cause, she has been round lots of littlies in her life. but when the kids around i like her to eat alone for all safety and so she can eat in peace without hurrying it. and i know she really appreciates it, i jsut wihs someone would lock me away from the kids too :crazy: ;)

bigdawgluver
October 21st, 2004, 08:38 AM
I am new here but had to make a reply.
I figure some are going to agree and some won't.
Your pup does definately need training.
I have a 4 month old pup and anyone at anytime can go up to her while she's eating anything and can take it away from her.
From the day we got her at 8 weeks, she was taught that she is the lowest on the totem pole.
Humans decide when and where and what she eats.
I want a very well behaved adult dog that will be welcome wherever I go.Be it the park, a store or a friends.
Every time she was fed, from the first feed ing on (only occasionally now) someone would put their hands near her food while she was eating and pet her and praise her.We would put our fingers in her food bowl and act like we were stirring it with our fingers.We walk by and pet her while shes eating.We would pick the bowl up and then praise her and give the food back and praise her.
A dog has to be safe in ALL situations, especially with children.
When company came I would have them go over and pet her while she ate. Same routine for chew toys and bones.
A family pet has to be safe no matter what.
I don't belive in leaving a dog alone because its eating.Humans gave the food, humans can remove the food.Dog has to accept this arrangement.
I will not, under any circumstances abide a biting dog. Your pup will probably be fine with training.I wouldnt even consider putting it to sleep at this point.
Children, little children will be unpredictable.I agree, children have to taught acceptable ways to treat a dog, but the child is still alpha over the dog.
what if the puppy got a childs toy and the child went to take it back?
Good luck with training and it is a problem that can be fixed.

Iggette
October 26th, 2004, 08:16 AM
bigdawgluver ....I totally agree with your statements, but children should non the less be taught to never do this with strange dogs!! Not everyone trains their dogs in this manner (although I think they should) and that's when "accidents happen".

Another trick is to measure out the dogs dinner and have the child put about 1/4 at a time in his bowl when it is gone next 1/4.....this teaches puppy that child is alpha to them and must rely on them for food :)

Under your supervision of course :thumbs up