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Bomber is sick again

Winston
June 17th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Well I know I havent been on much lately but we have been having a rough go of it for a few weeks. Bomber has been urinating outside the box pretty regularily and I have tried everything I can think of to make it better but we are off to the vets in am for them to figure out whats happening to my boy.

A couple of days ago he ws sitting on the top of the stairs he just stood there, didnt even crouch down just pee'd...and what drew my attention to him was that his whole body began to shake...because we startled him he ran away. I have not caught him shaking since?? I started him back on the metacam the other day just in case he is in pain..not sure what were in for tomorow but I am hoping we can get to the bottom of it.:shrug:

catlover2
June 17th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Sorry to hear about "Bomber". Has the urinating outside the box just started in the past few weeks, or is this a "regular" thing with him? Just hope it's something easier, like a UTI that can be fixed fairly easily. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

Winston
June 17th, 2010, 04:05 PM
Well its been more often than it should be lately! He has ideopathich cystitus. Last vet visit we gave him metacam for pain so I have resarteds that. last night I replaced the litter boxes yet again...he has also been difficult to get sample from so he will be staying for a bit tomorrow until they can get what they need. I will be asking fro a blood panel this time to see whats up. Last year Bomber had issues where his urine was too diluted and that also worrying me. Right now there is little color to the urine and it doesnt have an odour?? Thanks for the well wishes!

chico2
June 17th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Winston,good luck with Bomber,hopefully you'll get answers as to why he's doing this:goodvibes::fingerscr:cat:

Love4himies
June 17th, 2010, 06:09 PM
:goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodv ibes: for Bomber and a HUGE :grouphug: for you.

Jim Hall
June 17th, 2010, 06:22 PM
good luck bomber and W

mastifflover
June 17th, 2010, 07:40 PM
I hope Bomber is feeling better good vibes coming your way
:sick:

hazelrunpack
June 17th, 2010, 10:19 PM
Oh, no, Winston! Now Bomber is under the weather? :grouphug: When it rains it pours...

:fingerscr the vet visit tomorrow turns up something easily treated!

sugarcatmom
June 18th, 2010, 07:15 AM
Good luck at the vets! Make sure they get the urine sample via cystocentisis, and that it gets sent out for a culture and sensitivity.

14+kitties
June 18th, 2010, 07:36 AM
Sending lots of :goodvibes::fingerscr:pray: today. I hope you find something to help Bomber. He is such a sweet boy.

ancientgirl
June 18th, 2010, 08:29 AM
Sending lots of positive thoughts Bombers way.

I can't recall, but have you tried having him on Cosequin and possibly using Prozac? Oksana has suffered from Idiopathic Cystitis as well, and so far (knock on wood) the Cosequin seems to be helping.

Winston
June 18th, 2010, 06:13 PM
Well no real updates yet. Bomber went in at 8:30 and they were unable to get enough urine until 3pm. They drew blood as well and sent that out today. Hopefully we have more info tomorrow.

My poor boy must have been starving. He came home, ran dwonstairs to the food bowls and began chomping away as fast as he could! I have never seen him be so food motivated before!

The fact that it took so long for them to get urine was kind of scarey but she said if they had to they would give him some sub q fluids to help but I guess he didnt need that after all.

Thanks for the positive vibes...for some reason I feel I am going to need all of them...Bomber is really not himself...:(

diandpat
June 19th, 2010, 06:06 AM
Aw, sorry you are going through this. There is nothing worse than when the furkids are sick and that helpless feeling of not being able to do anything.
:goodvibes::goodvibes: for some positive answers soon.

hazelrunpack
June 19th, 2010, 09:03 AM
I hope you get good results today, Winston! :goodvibes:

Winston
June 19th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Well I need to rant! as I mentioned Bomber spent the day at the vet. I had arranged an early morning drop off & check for urine...he stayed all day and the girl origionally told me they had only a 2:15 appointment. Long story short I arrive at 2pm yesterday to pick him up because that is what they told me. I did not see the vet when I pick him up. The girl comes out and says okay you can take him and we will put everything together and go over it all at once tomorrow. I was a little taken back because ultimately I wanted to ask the vet about the shaking episode and also at the very least see what he thinks? regardless I paid the bill and left a little annoyed. Not even thinking that today is Saturday and they are closed until Monday????? The girl never said anything and I didnt think.

What pisses me off is that if he has a UTI he has to wait all weekend and then maybe until Monday evening before I can get back to them. It could have taken them 10 minutes to check the urine as they have done previously and waited? at the very least to get the meds in him if he needs something.

I am giving him metacam. I decided a couple of days ago that since he cant tell me I am going to assume that this is why he is urinating outside the box. I caught him again this morning when I came home from a class trying to urinate in Winston's crate. I know I should block it off and I do but its been so hot here and he loves to lay in the crate in the basement when its cool, but the moment he leaves Bomber is down there peeing! so Winston doesnt always have the liberty to go and lay in there when he wants. frustrating!

I know something is up because he is meowing alot today, although he is a vocal kitty it seems to me to be more? maybe I am just imagining it I dont know. Tabitha and him have been fighting since he came home yesterday. Likely because when they took the urine they said the pee went on him too! and they tried to clean him up but Tabitha can obviously smell it. I cant bath him either right now because he is already a scared kitty (has been all his life!) but it would be too tramatic for him.

Okay I am done ranting........:(

catlover2
June 19th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Sorry to hear of all the aggravation with the vet and the trouble you're having. Anyway, an alternative to bathing to freshen his coat to remove the urine smell, if you have a sani-wipe or, use some rubbing alcohol on a cotton pad and rub all over the coat, then take a washcloth, wet it in hot water, wring out and rub it all over his coat very well---do it a couple of times. The alcohol will get rid of the smell of urine, and you don't want him licking the rubbing alcohol, so that's why you have to wipe him thoroughly, and then towel-dry him, or blow dry on low if he'll tolerate that. Hopefully Tabitha will like him better. :cat:

Love4himies
June 19th, 2010, 12:19 PM
You rant away, you have reason to!

14+kitties
June 19th, 2010, 12:33 PM
It would be wonderful if all vets actually cared about their patients. But sadly it seems they are few and far between. If you manage to find one then hang on tight.
Is he still pooping ok? Maybe it's got something to do with that too. :shrug:
Still keeping my :fingerscr and sending lots of :goodvibes: your way. :grouphug:

Winston
June 19th, 2010, 01:02 PM
No the pooping was Winston and he is A okay now! I am darn sure it was a bad bag of food!

Ill try wiping him down...he is still mad at me though! cause I caught him in the act! :laughing:

chico2
June 19th, 2010, 01:09 PM
Winston,I am sorry you and Bomber are having such a hard time,it is so very important,to have a vet who will talk to you when you worry.
Before I switched vets,I had the kind of vets,that would charge me $45 just to talk.
My current vet will talk to me any time,he is wonderful,really cares.
I thought a urine-test is checked right at the vets,with instant results:confused:
I would imagine UTI is painful for him,but easily treated,right?

Winston
June 19th, 2010, 01:18 PM
It should be Chico....if thats what it is ...Bomber has had reocurring problems where his urine is too diluted and that is worrying me...we will see what happens Monday.:thumbs up

sugarcatmom
June 19th, 2010, 01:45 PM
It could have taken them 10 minutes to check the urine as they have done previously and waited?

If they're doing a proper culture and sensitivity (http://www.petplace.com/cats/culture-and-sensitivity-in-cats/page1.aspx), as they should be at this point, then the urine has to be sent out to a lab where it usually takes 72 hrs to get the results. I think the fact that they haven't done this in the past is part of the problem.

Likely because when they took the urine they said the pee went on him too!

How exactly did they get the urine sample??? Please don't tell me they expressed his bladder.

14+kitties
June 19th, 2010, 01:51 PM
No the pooping was Winston and he is A okay now! I am darn sure it was a bad bag of food!

Ill try wiping him down...he is still mad at me though! cause I caught him in the act! :laughing:


I know the last pooping issue was Winston. I just thought maybe part of Bomber's problems may be that as well as the peeing.:shrug:
If you don't want to use the rubbing alcohol just use warm water and do the best you can. Then do your baby powder trick with them. Hopefully Tabitha will figure it out soon. :fingerscr

ancientgirl
June 19th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Winston, I'm so sorry Bomber is still not feeling well. I do hope when you get to the vet on Monday you have a few choice words for the girl you spoke to.

I wonder if it might be safe to give him a bit of cranberry.

Winston
June 19th, 2010, 02:37 PM
SCM I am not sure how they did it and I havent talked to anyone. I hope they did it the correct way?? Makes sense though if he pee'd on himself that they may have expressed the bladder? is that painful?

hazelrunpack
June 19th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I don't think it's necessarily painful, Winston, but it won't get them the sterile sample they'd need to send out for culture and sensitivity tests :frustrated:

I hope you get some answers on Monday... :fingerscr

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 11:15 AM
Well I waited patiently all morning for a phone call and nothing! I guess they are not too concerned! I gave in and called them and the response I got was "its been a zoo in here today" and the vet and assistant are out for lunch until after 1:30pm??? WTF?

They saw Bomber at 8:30 am on Friday and I am still waiting to hear what they think? I guess its good I have some metacam for pain!

I guess I am still waiting! :(

rjesak
June 21st, 2010, 01:32 PM
Um, if it's a zoo, why are the vet and assistant out for lunch??? I'm just sayin'!

Good luck - I hate that kind of waiting. I hope the vet enjoys her lunch and gets back to you soon!:thumbs up

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 02:40 PM
Well I called back again at 3:10 to see whats going on! (boy they must have had a good lunch!)

This is what they told me...Bomber has a UTI...silence...okay so what are we going to do? he prescribed a medication you can pick up.

So then I ask about the bloodwork...her reply...kidney disease...silence and nothing more...I said okay I need to talk to the vet about this right?

Hang on hold again

She comes back and says he can call you or you can speak to a technician....WTF?????? am I wrong here or should he be having a serious discussion with me??? please tell me I am not overreacting?? I told her to have the vet call me..:(

Now I am even more pissed to klnow he probably suffered all weekend with the UTI and when the heck were they gonna call me after they close so I wont have a chance until tomorrow night to get meds into him???? :shrug:

sugarcatmom
June 21st, 2010, 02:52 PM
Winston, you NEED to find a new vet. For Bomber's sake. I'm wondering how long he's had kidney issues, since this vet had never previously made any attempt to get to the bottom of his dilute urine, which earlier blood tests may have helped narrow down. If this is how bad they are with diagnostics and customer service, then what makes you think they'll have any more concern for Bomber's actual treatment?

Just make sure you get a copy of Bomber's files for the new vet, so they don't have to run all the tests again.

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 03:02 PM
OMG SCM I am devastated and I havent even talked to them yet. your right the diluted urine has been ongoing for a little while now...Sad I just went to them about 3 yrs ago and have to change again. But your right it is time.

Having said that I obviously need to treat this now so what do I do. There is a prescription apparrently waiting and I think she mentioned a foog change is in order..OMG they are on soft food almost 100% I have been using their kibble as a treat here and there on the food?? I guess I need to talkt o someone because I know nothing about kidney disease really?? :(

chico2
June 21st, 2010, 04:14 PM
Winston,how terribly frustrating and I have a feeling these vets will recommend the food they sell,they sound very much like my previous vets.
I wish you lived closer to me,my vet is a wonderful guy,was recommended to me through a lady who has the local Pet-Value store and she was not wrong.
I am sure,if you pm'd Growler she will help you out.
:pray:for you and poor Bomber.

sugarcatmom
June 21st, 2010, 04:17 PM
I think she mentioned a foog change is in order..

Ya, let me guess: a bag of Hill's K/D or something containing equally lousy and completely inappropriate ingredients. :rolleyes:. But hey, they'll make a few bucks off it, so why not pimp it out?


OMG they are on soft food almost 100%

Fantastic! That's the most important step in dealing with kidney issues. Next would be to consider what the phosphorus levels are of the food Bomber and Tabitha eat, and whether there are any supplements or medications that Bomber should be taking according to what his lab results are. Check growler's CRF thread here for more info: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45017

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 06:40 PM
Well here is the urine

Color Light Yellow
Odour Normal
Urine Specific Gravity 1.020
ph 5.5
protein 1+
glucose normal
ketones neg
urobilinogen normal
bilirubin neg
blood 4+

Not fasted
clarity clear

cells
rbc's 2+
wbc's 1+
trans epith 2+

casts
occas granular

Other
cocci 3+

Comments
Occas crystal fragment

We also did the blood panel and there are some figures that are elevated there as well but I dont understand all of it...one thing that stood out was the Creatinine it was 316 and the normal range shows between 50-177 and the urea as well was elevated at 16.4 and the range is 5.0 - 13.0

The vet prescribed Clavamox and Fortekor. The Clavamox for the UTI and the other to assist with kidney issues.

They provided me with a pamphlet on food but did not push it because they know not to argue with me about it. Thank DAWG! however she gave me some info and I will have to look at the ingrediants in the food he is getting. I am giving them Dick Van Pattens Natural Balance in a few variety's now and it is the only canned they will / or would have in the past??

Pretty funny thought the pamphlet is for dry food. A new one that includes the new blend of antioxidents in dry formula only!! Medical Mature....

sugarcatmom
June 21st, 2010, 07:43 PM
I am giving them Dick Van Pattens Natural Balance in a few variety's now and it is the only canned they will / or would have in the past??

One problem I have with Natural Balance is the fact that the company is obnoxiously secretive about the nutritional profile of their food. I have no idea what the phosphorus amount is in any of their flavours. Venison tends to be lower in phosphorus than most meats so their Venison and Green Pea formula might be a good choice, but it's hard to know for sure when they aren't forthcoming with the info. I think the fact that your cats are eating wet food is the most important aspect and phosphorus can be dealt with in other ways if necessary (ie phosphorus binders).

Pretty funny thought the pamphlet is for dry food.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. The number of cats that are going to suffer because vets don't have a clue and think foods like this actually benefit felines in some way is a travesty. :(

A new one that includes the new blend of antioxidents in dry formula only!! Medical Mature....

Ugh. Here are the ingredients for Medi-cal Mature:

Rice Flour, Corn, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat, Corn Gluten Meal, Herring Meal, Plasma Protein, Natural Flavour, Dried Egg Powder, Flax Meal, Fish Oil, Calcium Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, DL-Methionine, ....

3 of the first 5 ingredients are grains :yuck:. Dried Brewer's Yeast is highly allergenic, and DL-methionine is an acidifier that can actually be harmful with long-term ingestion. The fact that Bomber's urine appears to be quite acidic anyway (normal is about 6.0-6.5 and his last few urinalysis results showed it to be in the 5.0-5.5 range) is another reason to absolutely NOT feed him this food. He could end up with calcium oxalate crystals or stones, which can only be removed with surgery.

If it were my cat, I would continue feeding the canned Natural Balance, but maybe start mixing an ever so tiny amount of Wellness chicken or turkey into it. We do know the phosphorus levels of Wellness and they tend to be lower than many other foods. Innova Evo 95% venison and beef are also excellent choices. Not sure how well that will go over with your guys, but if you start really small and work up, perhaps you can convert them. You also might want to ditch the kibble even for treats (especially if it's the Orijen fish, which is quite high in phosphorus). I prefer freeze-dried chicken (like Pure Bites or Halo Liv-a-Littles or Real Food Toppers) for treats, as they are 100% meat, nothing else.

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 07:46 PM
Thanks SCM! what do you think about the meds?

sugarcatmom
June 21st, 2010, 08:03 PM
Thanks SCM! what do you think about the meds?

Clavamox is okay, as long as you mix it with food to avoid digestive issues. And as long as it's appropriate for the strain of bacteria in Bomber's urine! Watch out for inappetence or vomiting/diarrhea and call the vet at the first sign of either.

Don't know much about Fortekor except that it's an ACE Inhibitor (more commonly used for heart issues), but perhaps Growler can help you with that. Here is a blurb about it on Tanya's CRF site (http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm):
http://www.felinecrf.org/just_diagnosed.htm#ace_inhibitors

14+kitties
June 21st, 2010, 08:17 PM
Winston - I am so sorry for Bomber's diagnosis. I was hoping for better. But kitties can live for a long time with kidney issues.
I totally agree with SCM. Time for a new vet. If you manage to find one who cares let me know please. :rolleyes: It's been a long time since a vet has phoned me first. Seriously though, you need to find one. This one obviously doesn't care or is terribly overworked.

Winston
June 21st, 2010, 08:29 PM
SCM I did discuss the fortekor and he said the saime thing about it being used as a drug for heart issues but said studies show that it assists the kidneys with opening up the vessels? (i think thats the word he used)

He assured me there were no side affects with this one. I did forget to ask about the Clavamox. He didnt say to give it with food. I have to say its a pain because the pill is designed to be cut in half and he wants me to only give him a 1/4 of a pill. Well once I cut them they break apart. Each pill before I cut them is a 5mg pill.

I am going to have a look at the food and also ask them again about the protein level they want the food at because the girl told me 26% crude protein and to me that just seems to be really high. When I look at the brand they are eating now it shows 9 % nothing at all close to that high??

Thank you 14+ I appreciate your kind words. I know its not the end of the world for sure. I know its not curable but I do know that I will fight for my boy to be healthy as he can be and I know I can improve it. He is such a good boy when it comes to pilling and meds....Thank God its not Tabitha I am dealing with because sadly I cannot pill her at all.....:(

Vet also said to stop using the metacam. I started to use it again a few days ago when I thought Bomber was in pain.

He really had no explanation for the shaking episode either.

I was aitting at work today thinking about Bomber and realized that I had stopped the d-mannose approx a month ago because Bomber seemed well enough and was not urinating outside the box. I mentioned this to the vet and he said if it worked before by all means use it. He seemed interested in what it was.

Before I ended the call I told him I was pissed off at the length of time this took and he apoligized and indicated they did have a really busy day. I also told him about the incident with his partner and the comment he made and he was none too impressed expcept the partner is the senior vet. I told him I was looking...

Thanks for the support and hopefully the meds will kick in for my boy soon!

Cindy

14+kitties
June 21st, 2010, 08:42 PM
Oh Cindy, I am in no way negating the seriousness of Bomber's illness. If it were one of mine I would be devastated. :grouphug: I am sorry if my words came out wrong. It was meant to reassure you. :o
Could the shaking just have been the pain of passing the urine? :shrug: Maybe you just happened to catch him when he was showing pain.

hazelrunpack
June 21st, 2010, 09:50 PM
I'm so sorry you got bad news, Cindy. :grouphug: I hope Bomber kicks the UTI quickly so you can concentrate on helping him with the kidney issues. Have you talked with growler, yet? She may have some good tips for you! :goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
June 22nd, 2010, 01:56 AM
Well here is the urine

Color Light Yellow
Odour Normal
Urine Specific Gravity 1.020
ph 5.5
protein 1+
glucose normal
ketones neg
urobilinogen normal
bilirubin neg
blood 4+

Not fasted
clarity clear

cells
rbc's 2+
wbc's 1+
trans epith 2+

casts
occas granular

Other
cocci 3+

Comments
Occas crystal fragment

We also did the blood panel and there are some figures that are elevated there as well but I dont understand all of it...one thing that stood out was the Creatinine it was 316 and the normal range shows between 50-177 and the urea as well was elevated at 16.4 and the range is 5.0 - 13.0

The vet prescribed Clavamox and Fortekor. The Clavamox for the UTI and the other to assist with kidney issues.

Bomber is definately showing signs of both a UTI & kidney issues as indicated by the urine results & elevated creatinine & BUN, anything else increased/decreased?

Did the vet mention the increase in creatinine levels that sometimes occur when using Fortekor? Given that Bomber's level is already over 300, I would be requesting another blood test within 2 weeks to make sure the cre is not being pushed any higher.

Did they run a culture & sensitvity on the urine sample?

Did the vet mention anything about the urine pH & the crystal fragments?

what do you think about the meds?

I never used Fortekor so I don't have direct info but from the above mentioned site, though it may increase the creatinine slightly, it helps by reducing blood pressure which will increase blood flow allowing the toxins to be filtered faster. It also appears to reduce the loss of protein in the urine ie proteinuria, which is the protein 1+ in the urine labs.

Clavamox is one of the most used/safe/effective antibiotics for uti's but it might not be the only one that works for this bacteria. You may also need to switch to a different one if this doesn't clear the infection after the initial treatment or run another course of the same.

I have to say its a pain because the pill is designed to be cut in half and he wants me to only give him a 1/4 of a pill. Well once I cut them they break apart. Each pill before I cut them is a 5mg pill.

You may wish to speak to your vet about Clavaseptin (http://www.vetoquinol.ca/en/index.asp?ref=13&page=231) which is the veterinary formula of clavamox, it's also chewable though the pills are tiny. :cat:

Are you sure that's a 5 mg not 50 mg? 1/4 of 5 mg is an awfully small dose when dealing with a persistant infection.

Vet also said to stop using the metacam. I started to use it again a few days ago when I thought Bomber was in pain.

The Clavamox, if the correct antibiotic for this uti, should take effect within 24 hours & that should also lessen any pain he is having urinating, though the crystal fragments needs to be looked further into, especially given the 4+ blood in the urine.

About the Natural Balance see if you can get them to give you the nutrient analysis, not the guarenteed analysis, for all the canned varieties you are feeding, they should list everything in exact amounts not max/mins, in that including all minerals, vitamins etc. That will show what the phos levels of the food is, then it can be converted to dry matter basis for proper comparison. When asking for the nutrient analysis tell them you have a cat with kidney insufficiency that should get them to not only give it to you but do so quickly. Wellness was wonderful :thumbs up when I asked for the values of their canned foods, I was given the numbers with dry matter conversions for the entire line including all dry foods which I hadn't asked for.

Let me know if you have further questions, I'll be happy to help :goodvibes:

sugarcatmom
June 22nd, 2010, 06:53 AM
I have to say its a pain because the pill is designed to be cut in half and he wants me to only give him a 1/4 of a pill. Well once I cut them they break apart.

Another method is to cut them in half, then grind up the half into a powder (mortar and pestle works great for this, but sandwiching the pill between wax paper and smooshing it with the back of a spoon could also work). It's much easier to then divide the powder into 2 equal piles with a sharp knife (save the unused portion in a piece of wax paper with the ends twisted together).

Vet also said to stop using the metacam.

Oh absolutely!!!! In fact, this is the part that really makes me think you need a new vet: HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE PRESCRIBED METACAM IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Not without thoroughly checking Bomber's kidney values. Metacam is contraindicated for renal insufficiency, and can in fact do more damage to already compromised kidneys. It was negligent and lazy of them not to more thoroughly pursue the reason for Bomber's dilute urine way back when he first started having these issues.

ancientgirl
June 22nd, 2010, 07:26 AM
Winston, I really hope you can get your boy better soon. He must be so uncomfortable. Hopefully, if you can find another vet who might be a little more informative and curious about finding out how to get him well.

Winston
June 23rd, 2010, 08:33 AM
Growler here is the blood report increased levels


Under Biochemistry
Amylase 1873 range between 300-1700
Urea 16.4 range 5.0 - 13.0
Creatine 316 range 50-177

Under Hematology
RBC 5.9 range 6.0 - 11.0
WBC 10.4 range 5.5-19.5

The only other item that was on the higher end was MCHC at 310 and the range is 290-360.

Cindy

Winston
June 23rd, 2010, 09:07 AM
Growler here are some answers to the questions..

Yes they told me I had to recheck the urine befoe he finishes the Clavamox.

No mention of the ph level or crystal fragments

As for the fortekor explanation thats exactly what the vet explained.

Bomber was on Zenniquin I think twice and it did not work.

I checked and it is definately a 5mg pill and it mentions the weigh based on Bombers size to give a 1/4 of a pill.

I emailed Natural Balance for a nutrient breakdown but have not received a reply.

According to the vets office their medical crap is 6% protein and 0.4 phosperous and they said I need to get the food down to at least that amount.

I am having trouble with figuring out what foods are at that percentage...

My dilemma is that some may remember my attempts to get them to wet food was a real trial and this is the only brand I can get them to eat.....:(

Bomber has been sleeping alot since I gave him the meds 2 days ago but perhaps he is just tired.

Winston
June 24th, 2010, 09:16 AM
Hey guys I need some help warpping my brain around the food requirements for Bomber. I emailed Natural Balance and they seem to have only canned between 8-10% protein. They provided this answer to the amount of phosphorus and sodium:

Hello,
Please know that the Canned Cat Formulas have an average sodium content of 0.25% and the phosphorous of 0.47% as fed. The protein contents are shown for each formula on our website at:

What is confusing to me is that I dont understand the phosphorus? You cant see it on the analysis? How does anyone know what amounts are in a can?

For example here is the analysis of Turkey & Giblets:

Crude Protein 9.0 minimum
Crude Fat 5.0 minimum
Crude Fiber 1.5% max
Moisture 78% max
Taurine 0.05% minimum

So can anyone explain to me what all this means? Does it mean that this food is 15.5 % (being a total of crude protein, fat & fiber that is listed? )

Any help would be appreciated!

growler~GateKeeper
June 25th, 2010, 02:25 AM
Growler here is the blood report increased levels


Under Biochemistry
Amylase 1873 range between 300-1700
Urea 16.4 range 5.0 - 13.0
Creatine 316 range 50-177

Under Hematology
RBC 5.9 range 6.0 - 11.0
WBC 10.4 range 5.5-19.5

The only other item that was on the higher end was MCHC at 310 and the range is 290-360.

Cindy

http://home.gci.net/~divs/disease/lab_tests.html
Amylase (AMYL) - The pancreas produces and secrets amylase to aid in digestion. Elevated blood levels can indicate pancreatic and/or kidney disease.

Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) - BUN is produced by the liver and excreted by the kidneys. Decreased levels are seen with low protein diets, liver insufficiency, and the use of anabolic steroid drug. Increased levels indicate any condition that reduces the kidney's ability to filter body fluids in the body or interferes with protein breakdown.

Creatinine (CREA) - Creatinine is a by-product of muscle metabolism and is excreted by the kidneys. Elevated levels can indicate kidney disease or urinary obstruction, muscle disease, arthritis, hyperthyroidism, and diabetes. An increased BUN and normal creatinine suggest an early or mild problem. An increased creatinine and increased BUN with elevated phosphorus indicate a long standing kidney disease.

Decreased RBC is a sign of anaemia, WBC are normal it doesn't have to be exactly in the middle, mild increase indicative of the infection from the UTI.

Mean Corpuscular Hemaglobin Concentration (MCHC) is also normal though slightly on the higher side. MCHC is the average of weight of hemaglobin in each RBC. High MCHC shows there is an increase of hemaglobin in the RBCs, (hemaglobin binds & transports oxygen in the blood). and indicates dehydration.

Growler here are some answers to the questions..

Yes they told me I had to recheck the urine befoe he finishes the Clavamox.

Good, it should be done about 5 before finishing so they can do a culture & sensitivity and about 2 weeks after finishing to make sure there is no re-occurance

No mention of the ph level or crystal fragments

I'd be asking about that especially given the 4+ blood in urine. Perhaps an ultrasound to check kidney/urinary tract structure, level of inflammation and crystals/stone visualization.

As for the fortekor explanation thats exactly what the vet explained.

Bomber was on Zenniquin I think twice and it did not work.

Zenniquin is a broad spectrum antibiotic that works on bacteria that is suceptable to it's active ingredient Marbofloxacin. Clavamox also a broad spectrum antibiotic uses two different active ingredients amoxicillin and clavulanic acid.

The reason a culture & sensitivity needs to be done is to find one that this particualr bacterial strain is suseptible to. Not all broad spectrum antibiotics will work effectivly to erradicate bacterial strains everytime, you need to switch to one with a different active ingredient once the bacteria becomes resistant to one.

Everytime a drug is used on a bacterial strain it adapts to/learns that drug, that is why it is important to ensure the proper dose is taken, the script is finished and it's the right one for fighting that strain.

I checked and it is definately a 5mg pill and it mentions the weigh based on Bombers size to give a 1/4 of a pill.

What does Bomber weigh?

I emailed Natural Balance for a nutrient breakdown but have not received a reply.

According to the vets office their medical crap is 6% protein and 0.4 phosperous and they said I need to get the food down to at least that amount.

I am having trouble with figuring out what foods are at that percentage...

The vets office has given you these numbers in two different forms - the protein level of 6% is as fed including moisture content and the phos level is dry matter basis with all water removed.

Not a valid comparison to other foods unless you also convert the protein to dry matter basis which according to the Medi-Cal site the k/d canned is 28.9% dry matter protein, since they do not list the as fed values I can not check their calculations.

My dilemma is that some may remember my attempts to get them to wet food was a real trial and this is the only brand I can get them to eat.....:(

It is too high in phos, try a couple of cans again they may surprise you and if you honestly can not get them to switch to a lower phos food, you need to discuss a phosphorus binder with the vet - tell them the phos level in the food, the difficulty switching food etc. Many vets are not aware that you can get generic odorless/tasteless phos binders at the pharmacy instead of the mint flavour (:rolleyes: :wall:) many vets use.

A phosphorus binder will not remove phosphorus from the blood it is mixed into and attaches itself to the phos in the food & prevents absorption from what they are eating. At that point the blood phosphorus : calcium ratio needs to be monitored to make sure it stays normal

Bomber has been sleeping alot since I gave him the meds 2 days ago but perhaps he is just tired.

Dehydration, infection, high toxin levels (high crea & BUN) can also make him weak & overall feel crappy. The antibiotics are also a foreign substance in his body that he is getting used to.

Hey guys I need some help warpping my brain around the food requirements for Bomber. I emailed Natural Balance and they seem to have only canned between 8-10% protein. They provided this answer to the amount of phosphorus and sodium:

Hello,
Please know that the Canned Cat Formulas have an average sodium content of 0.25% and the phosphorous of 0.47% as fed. The protein contents are shown for each formula on our website at:

What is confusing to me is that I dont understand the phosphorus? You cant see it on the analysis? How does anyone know what amounts are in a can?

For example here is the analysis of Turkey & Giblets:

Crude Protein 9.0 minimum
Crude Fat 5.0 minimum
Crude Fiber 1.5% max
Moisture 78% max
Taurine 0.05% minimum

So can anyone explain to me what all this means? Does it mean that this food is 15.5 % (being a total of crude protein, fat & fiber that is listed? )

:eek: The phosphorus is way too high for a kidney cat!

100-moisture = dry matter; phos/dry matter * 100 = dry matter phosphorus

Natual balance: 100-78 = 22; 0.47/22 * 100 = 2.14% dry matter phosphorus = way too high :eek:

I would not go any higher than a MAX dry matter phosphorus level of 1.25% and feed anything between 1.23-1.25 as an occasional not a staple food.

Most food companies do not list phos on their cans/bags and a lot don't put it on their sites. It is an essential nutrient but not one that most people are looking for, unless you have a cat with medical needs.

If you are looking for the carbohydrate formula you find that by adding protein, fat, water, fiber, and ash, then subtracting that sum from 100% to get "as fed" carbohydrate.

Phosphorus is a separate essential nutrient mineral:

http://www.felinecrf.org/just_diagnosed.htm#phosphorus
Phosphorus and calcium are minerals which are important for nerve function, muscle contraction and bone formation. A healthy body has a natural balance between levels of phosphorus and calcium.

CRF kidneys can no longer excrete phosphorus properly so levels of phosphorus rise (hyperphosphataemia), which can then adversely affect the cat's calcium levels, with potentially serious consequences (see secondary hyperparathyroidism).

Not only that, but high phosphorus levels may make the CRF progress faster and can make a cat feel lousy. So controlling phosphorus levels is one of the most important steps in managing CRF and helping your cat feel better.

mikischo
June 25th, 2010, 06:46 AM
Hi, Winston. I'm sorry to hear about Bomber's diagnosis.:grouphug:

I have little to add over the excellent advice and information you are receiving from SCM and Growler.

However, I am wondering if there is some confusion here about the pill you are referring to when you are talking about 1/4 of a 5 mg pill. I believe the others may think you are referring to an antibiotic. Because Mickey did receive Fortekor for a short period during his illness, my guess is you are referring to the Fortekor. If that is the case, I would consider 1/4 of a 5 mg pill once a day to be reasonable and appropriate. As indicated by Growler, it is possible it might initially cause an increase in Creatine levels and I would be more concerned if Bomber had been put on too large a dosage. I can sympathize with the difficulty of cutting those pills exactly into quarters. I used a sharp paring knife and, although it is difficult to get the sizes 100% accurate, I would not get overly concerned about it. As long as it is close, the amount would balance out over a 24 hour period.

Winston
June 25th, 2010, 07:22 PM
Mischiko it is the fortekor that is 1/4 of a pill. It was a tad easier this time. I just have to be careful thats all.

I just figured out that the Clavamox is to be taken every 12 hours....They told me once a day...the package says every 12hrs??

He pee'd outside the box last night so he isnt all better yet. I guess I spoke too soon! They did not weigh him at the vets for some reason this time which I forgot to ask them to do because we think he has lost some weight. He last weighed in at 8 pounds.

ancientgirl
June 25th, 2010, 07:29 PM
Mischiko it is the fortekor that is 1/4 of a pill. It was a tad easier this time. I just have to be careful thats all.

I just figured out that the Clavamox is to be taken every 12 hours....They told me once a day...the package says every 12hrs??

He pee'd outside the box last night so he isnt all better yet. I guess I spoke too soon! They did not weigh him at the vets for some reason this time which I forgot to ask them to do because we think he has lost some weight. He last weighed in at 8 pounds.

When I've used Clavamox for any of the gang, I've always been told to give it to them 2 times a day. :shrug: Have you considered using Cosequin?

Winston
June 25th, 2010, 09:39 PM
I have to order some more AG I used it for awhile and never erally found that it did anything??

growler~GateKeeper
June 26th, 2010, 12:23 AM
However, I am wondering if there is some confusion here about the pill you are referring to when you are talking about 1/4 of a 5 mg pill. I believe the others may think you are referring to an antibiotic. Because Mickey did receive Fortekor for a short period during his illness, my guess is you are referring to the Fortekor.

Mischiko it is the fortekor that is 1/4 of a pill

Okay I get now, cuz from this post it looked like you were talking about the Clavamox being the 1/4 pill:

He assured me there were no side affects with this one. I did forget to ask about the Clavamox. He didnt say to give it with food. I have to say its a pain because the pill is designed to be cut in half and he wants me to only give him a 1/4 of a pill. Well once I cut them they break apart. Each pill before I cut them is a 5mg pill.

Did the vet give you the Clavamox or did they give you a prescription? They should've given you written instructions either way.

ancientgirl
June 26th, 2010, 12:22 PM
I have to order some more AG I used it for awhile and never erally found that it did anything??

Poop. I really hope you can figure something out soon.

Winston
June 26th, 2010, 12:52 PM
Growler I dont understand this post?? I am blonde remember! :D

100-moisture = dry matter; phos/dry matter * 100 = dry matter phosphorus

Natual balance: 100-78 = 22; 0.47/22 * 100 = 2.14% dry matter phosphorus = way too high

I would not go any higher than a MAX dry matter phosphorus level of 1.25% and feed anything between 1.23-1.25 as an occasional not a staple food.

growler~GateKeeper
June 27th, 2010, 12:50 AM
Growler I dont understand this post?? I am blonde remember! :D

100-moisture = dry matter; phos/dry matter * 100 = dry matter phosphorus

Natual balance: 100-78 = 22; 0.47/22 * 100 = 2.14% dry matter phosphorus = way too high

I would not go any higher than a MAX dry matter phosphorus level of 1.25% and feed anything between 1.23-1.25 as an occasional not a staple food.

In very simple terms the Natural Balance canned you are feeding has more than twice the recommended maximum amount of phosphorus for a kidney cat. It has way way too much phosphorus in it to feed without adding a phosphorus binder - something you need to either get from the vet or a pharmacy but you need the vet to give you a dosage to use, they also need to be aware that you are using it.

The formula above allows you to calculate the dry matter of the nutrients & ingredients when you remove all moisture from the food. This makes it much easier to compare different flavours & brands of food because they all have different amounts of moisture so once you remove that the values are more consistant. When you remove the moisture content from the canned & dry foods you can accurately compare not only canned food to canned food but also dry food to canned food to tell which has higher phosphorous levels etc.

As for the last line of the quote quite simply that is the amount of phos I wouldn't go higher than to feed. In order to find which foods have a low enough or an acceptable level of phosphorus you need to use either that formula or the conversion to mg/kcal to calculate which foods are okay and which to stay away from.

Winston
June 28th, 2010, 07:38 PM
I found this link and am wondering about some of these brands for Bomber?

http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

Any thoughts?

sugarcatmom
June 28th, 2010, 08:10 PM
I found this link and am wondering about some of these brands for Bomber?

http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

Any thoughts?

Which ones in particular are you wondering about?

That list is also pretty old, last revised in 2003. There's a more updated version (2005) at this link: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm, but it's not as extensive. The list at this site is the most recent (2008): http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

Winston
June 29th, 2010, 08:48 PM
Not really sure SCM just thought something might stick out to someone.

I picked up this tonight to see if they will eat it.

life stages...performatrin chicken & liver

Crude Protein 10%
phosphorus 0.18%

any thoughts

growler~GateKeeper
June 30th, 2010, 06:23 AM
Not really sure SCM just thought something might stick out to someone.

I picked up this tonight to see if they will eat it.

life stages...performatrin chicken & liver

Crude Protein 10%
phosphorus 0.18%

any thoughts

Where are you getting the phos at 0.18% is it listed on the can label?
They don't have phos content on their site.

Did they put actual moisture content on the can label or just max amount?

Winston
June 30th, 2010, 07:55 AM
yes right on the can...the moisture showed 78% max...no sodium listed on it.

When I get home I will list all the other stuff.

cpietra16
June 30th, 2010, 09:10 AM
How is Bomber doing, Winston

Winston
June 30th, 2010, 09:49 AM
Bomber seems okay. He has still pee'd outside the box a couple of times so I am not sure if the clavamox is working. I need to have a urinalysis done in about a week to see if anything is working?? I actually think he is loosing weight because he seems a little on the thin side lately and they didnt weigh him last time he was in.

I think Bomber is handling things better than his mom because she cant wrap her head around what he needs food wise :(

How is Nickie doing today? I hope she settling back in to her usual routine. I am glad the transport team is working out sooooo well!

You did an awesome thing mf! :thumbs up

cpietra16
June 30th, 2010, 07:02 PM
pleas e check your pm

Winston
June 30th, 2010, 07:59 PM
here is the full breakdown on the can

crude protein 10%
crude fat 6%
crude fiber 1%
moisture 78%
ash 2.2
calium 0.22%
phosphorus 0.18%
magnesium 0.022%
taurine 0.06%

doesnt matter about the breakdown now anyway they didnt like the performatrin :( only a few mouthfulls?

I went and bought a couple of the teeny wellness turkey and the wellness chicken to see if they will try it?

growler~GateKeeper
June 30th, 2010, 11:16 PM
here is the full breakdown on the can

crude protein 10%
crude fat 6%
crude fiber 1%
moisture 78%
ash 2.2
calium 0.22%
phosphorus 0.18%
magnesium 0.022%
taurine 0.06%

doesnt matter about the breakdown now anyway they didnt like the performatrin :( only a few mouthfulls?

I went and bought a couple of the teeny wellness turkey and the wellness chicken to see if they will try it?

The moisture content is a max value, is the phos listed as "phos 0.18% min" or is it listed as actual value like you typed it?

If phos is actual value the food comes in @ 0.81% dry matter phos :thumbs up

If that is min value & providing the actual doesn't go over 0.26% you're still looking at good numbers roughly around 1.18% dry matter phos (if at 0.26 actual) :thumbs up

Did you try adding some of the Natural Balance to it? or PureBites treats, parmesan cheese, cooked chicken bits, tiny bit of melted butter on top?

Try warming the food up a little bit, put hot water in the sink just enough to heat the bottom of the dish, place food dish in the water & let sit for a minute to release the aroma, make sure the dish & food is not too hot for the delicate kitty nose to touch

chico2
July 1st, 2010, 07:54 AM
Wiston,my cats did not like Perfomatrin either,I tried it a couple of years back.

I do exactly what Growler says,but I put the can in a dish of hot water.
Wellness has a lot of juice in it and I usually pour some of it on top of their food,they seem to like that,probably smells strong.

Also,Rocky at one point stopped eating and he cannot lose any more weight,but after I put his dish on a fat book to elevate it,he eats very well,3 times/day.

:pray::fingerscr:goodvibes:to you and Bomber:grouphug:

Winston
July 1st, 2010, 08:31 AM
Chico which wellness do you buy? the one I bought is a teeny little 3oz can to try it. There was no juice just pate type food?

There were a fewe types of wellness??Wellness normal then a wellness core? and I think another one?

I am going to try and mix a bit of the old food today. Tabitha seems to eat the wellness. Bomber hasnt been eating well since I started him on the meds. Today he looks really tired for some reason? He is having a snooze right now with his brat of a sister!

mikischo
July 1st, 2010, 10:49 AM
Winston, you are right on track in trying the regular Wellness chicken and turkey. Wellness is an excellent choice and has high quality ingredients, and for your CRF kitty, you do want the regular, not the Core. Another couple of flavours you could also try are the Wellness chicken and beef as well as the kitten and, yes, they are all pate. All these flavours were already researched by Growler and have under 1.18% phosphorus content on a dry matter basis which is good. Other flavours of Wellness are somewhat higher in phosphorus.

Good idea to try to introduce it slowly by adding it to the food they are familiar with.:thumbs up Growler also has some great suggestions about adding the toppings and warming the dish to encourage them to eat it.

If Bomber's loss of appetite started when he was put on the meds, it is possible that the Clavamox may be contributing to it. Clavamox is a good antibiotic, but it can sometimes cause nausea in some kitties. Many kitties who suffer from CRF also experience nausea at some point and, if you are not already doing so, keeping Bomber's food and water dishes raised as Chico mentioned is a great idea and highly recommended for CRF kitties and any kitties who may be experiencing nausea.

Winston
July 1st, 2010, 11:10 AM
Thanks Mischiko! How high should I raise the dishes?

I did get the chicken and beef...not kitten....have a few cans so hoepfully I can get Bomber intrigued...

I am so glad there are wonderful people here with tons of knowledge! makes it much easier for me to deal with. I love my boy and it hurts knowing he is sick! But I will do whatever it is I need to do.

I am going to make his appointment with the new vet and try to bring them up to speed on whats going on. Basically this appointment will be to check the urine and see if the antibiotic is working. I really hope this place is good. Its an all cat clinic...makes it tough with having a dog too but I am looking for another vet for Winston too!

mikischo
July 1st, 2010, 01:45 PM
How high should I raise the dishes?

Anywhere from 2 to 6 inches is recommended but 2 to 3 inches is usually sufficient. The idea is that the head is not below the stomach when eating. I only had Mickey's bowls elevated about 3 inches and he was a big boy.:lovestruck: You can experiment and find out what works best with Bomber.

chico2
July 1st, 2010, 02:42 PM
Winston,I buy the large cans,since I feed 3 cats,but that's for 2 meals breakkie/lunch,then I have the medium size for dinner.
They all have some juice in it.
I use a book,about 2 1/2 inches high for Rocky,it's amazing the difference it made.:thumbs up
My 3 boys did not like the chicken/beef,but that does not mean Bomber won't like it.

Winston
July 2nd, 2010, 11:43 AM
anyone ever heard of this food or tried it?

http://www.weruva.com/

ancientgirl
July 2nd, 2010, 11:49 AM
I've bought it before for the gang once when their food order didn't come in. They liked it, but it's way out of my price range to give to them all the time.

sugarcatmom
July 2nd, 2010, 12:02 PM
anyone ever heard of this food or tried it?

http://www.weruva.com/

It's a decent food (they use very high quality meat), except there's potato starch in pretty much every flavour. I have no idea what the phosphorus levels would be. And as AG mentioned, it's hella expensive. But maybe if your cats liked it, you could mix it half-n-half with something else to mitigate the price.

chico2
July 2nd, 2010, 04:26 PM
I've never seen it before:confused:

growler~GateKeeper
July 3rd, 2010, 01:52 AM
All the chicken flavours except Grandma's Chicken Soup (too high @ 1.36% dm phos) work out to have 1.13% dm phos, which is good though these are estimates as both the moisture & phos levels are listed as max values.

However if the food is actually what is shown in those pictures you might be throwing out quite a bit of it, with the exception of the Paw Lickin' Chicken & the Nine Liver they all have large chunks of potato & carrot - not all cats will dig into that.

Winston
July 4th, 2010, 03:53 PM
Well I have been giving them Wellness Chicken and also the Chicken & Beef...havent tried to Turkey yet. Tabitha seems to like them. Bomber on the ther hand has not eaten much for 2 days?? He is sleeping alot as well. I think that is the fortekor that is making him tired?? I forgot to raise the dishes so the next meal I will...I am hoping he is a little more hungry tonight...

chico2
July 4th, 2010, 04:08 PM
Winston,I could not believe the difference it made for Rocky with raised dishes,now Chico wants the same:cat:
:pray:for Bomber to eat tonight:pray:
Stirring up the food,so he can really smell it and the little bit of juice in the can on top of the food helps too.

growler~GateKeeper
July 4th, 2010, 11:34 PM
Bomber on the ther hand has not eaten much for 2 days?? He is sleeping alot as well. I think that is the fortekor that is making him tired??

Try everything you can to get him to eat: adding warm water, heat the food in the dish in a bowl of hot water, treats like Purebites, little sprinkle of parmesean cheese, teensey tiny pinch of catnip (doesn't work with all cats, but some it will stimulate the appetite a bit), bits of shredded cooked chicken etc

If the tiredness/extra sleeping/lethargy continues, you should let the vet know, they may wish to adjust the dosage:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/benazepril.html
SIDE EFFECTS

Nausea, appetite loss, or diarrhea are sometimes observed with this medication. In some patients, these effects are severe enough to preclude the use of benazepril.

In some patients, blood pressure can drop too low as the peripheral blood vessels are dilated. This manifests as listlessness and lethargy. Often the dose of benazepril can be modified should this side effect occur.

Benazepril may lead to elevations in potassium blood levels.

Winston
July 5th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Well Bomber didnt eat last night. I could only get him to eat a teeny bit off my finger. He threw up too and it was a frothy type substance...and then went back to sleep for the night. I am soo worried now!

I booked an appointment with the new vet clinic and she was so worried she said she would fit me in tonight. How nice was that! She is very concerned about him not eating and the neds he is on.

I need some good vibes! feeling really down about this.:(..I will let you know what the new vet says!

hazelrunpack
July 5th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Sending lots of :goodvibes: and keeping my :fingerscr for Bomber, Winston! :grouphug: With luck they'll just need to adjust his meds to get his appetite going again!

sugarcatmom
July 5th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Well Bomber didnt eat last night.

Is he still taking the Clavamox? That can also cause digestive issues, especially nausea.

Good luck at the vet tonight!

Winston
July 5th, 2010, 07:42 PM
Well we are back from the new vet. I did like her and she seemed to know her stuff. We were there for 1 ½ hours but she told me she was busy as long as I didn’t mind waiting.

Basically she feels it is the Clavamox that has made Bomber not feel well. I was actually embarrassed because as I was explaining to her that he wasn’t eating and vomiting etc she handed him a handful of some dry food and he ate it so quickly it looked like I had starved him. I was horrified because you should have seen him go after the food!

Bomber is down to 7.1 pounds from 8.8. Vet was very concerned about that. You can now see the weight loss. Its actually very sad looking. We went over everything that was done a couple of weeks ago and we also went over the meds. She has said to take Bomber off of everything. She got a urine sample and it will be a Culture and Sensitivity and the results for that will not be back until at least Friday she said. She also confirmed that the previous sample was not a C&S. Once we know what we are dealing with then she will decide what to do further and what meds to prescribe for that issue. She seemed concerned that he seemed to repeatedly have the Cocci strain??

We are also doing a Urine Protein: Creatinine Ratio Test. She drew blood to confirm the levels that were previously taken for his RBC’s and the pt level….(I cant explain this one very well) .

She put Bomber on potassium (the invoice shows Tumil K Tablets) and those are 1 per day. We then discussed food options and although she didn’t disagree with my food comments she put it to me like this. She just wants weight on Bomber right now and I should do whatever it takes for that. Whether that be home cooking , the old food he was eating just get him eating. She liked that I had him on wellness but he wasn’t eating hardly any of it. Her main concern was not so much the protein BUT the phosphorus and sodium. Once we know what UTI we are treating and Bomber gets a little weight back on him we are not going to worry about food. I broke down and bought him the dry because I don’t have any of the dry left. I told her I would try him again on the canned but indicated he didn’t like it before?? So she said if he will eat the other brands just get him to eat it. So we have 1 can of Mature Diet (royal canin) and I bought a bag of the Medi Cal Mature Diet (the one he scarfed up in the waiting area.)…She agreed to check out some brand names for me so I know what I can look for when I am out shopping for food. Today was a zoo and she didn’t have enough time.

Bomber was none too pleased that he was there! I tried the soft food and I think he is just too pissed off and upset to even find the energy to eat. I actually brought it to him on the bed upstairs where he is sleeping and he only had a couple of licks…..hopefully once he is more settled he will have a bit more to eat….

I hope he starts to feel better soon….he pee’d in the living room right in front of me today looking at me????? Just as I was getting ready to leave for work.

Thanks for all the good vibes!

ancientgirl
July 6th, 2010, 07:29 AM
The vet sounds like she's got it together. I hope she's able to figure out what is causing this. I do agree about the food. At least he'll be eating something.

cpietra16
July 6th, 2010, 07:46 AM
http://www.felinecrf.org/persuading_cat_to_eat.htm

this is an interesting site; they talk about protein in foods. I know its not what Bomber has, but the protein part is interesting. It may give you ideas.:shrug::shrug:

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 08:26 AM
Well I am feeling so bad for Bomber. He came home from the new vets at 6pm last night and he hasnt left the upstairs bedroom since. I checked on him this morning and he was sleeping but is definately not feeling himself....I brought him up a handful of treats which he ate. So idecided to bring up some food to the bedroom. He ate about a 1/2 teaspoon of food and a teeny bit of water....but seemed to get tired fast and laid his head back down.

I had discussed with the vet about Bomber and if he is suffering and she said he did not appear to be in distress but just not feeling well which made me feel a bit better because the last thing I want is for him to suffer.:(

I am at work right now and worried sick. I may take some time off this afternoon to check on him. Some of the results should be in today with the exception of the C&S.

Love4himies
July 6th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Is he still on Clavamox?

My cats don't like Wellness but do like NV Instinct. Another food to try that all my cats just love is Almo. It is not for long term feeding, but is good for interim or mixed with their canned food. I find it has a lot of moisture in it which will be good for him.

My cats go crazy for the tuna and shrimp, maybe mixing that with his canned will entice him to eat it. Remember, cats eat food based upon smell, not taste so getting a smell that he likes is key to getting him to eat. The cat food companies spray their kibble to make it so very appealing to cats :frustrated:

Even sprinkling the kibble on a piled up bit of canned may get some canned in him.

Good luck and :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes:

chico2
July 6th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Winston,I am glad you found a vet you are comfortable with,it is sometimes half the battle,you have to have a vet you can trust.
You know,dealing with sick animals is just heartbreaking,I had 2 kids who were sick,but at least they can tell you how they feel,with cats you just don't know:(
My Rocky too,is very skinny,it does not show much on his pics,but you can feel every bone in his spine and he eats very good:confused:
Maybe Wellness,is not great if you want your cat to gain weight:confused:that's all my cats eat+treats.

I hope your little Bomber will start eating,I would feed him whatever he likes,even dry food.

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 09:09 AM
I would give him anything right now...he just doesnt seem interested....The new vet did not care what I gave him...she just wants him to eat....

L4H he is off the Clavamox...last one was yesterday morning....we have to wait for the C&S to come back so she can finally prescribe the right anitbiotic....they wont be back until Friday. I will be letting her know that he hasnt eaten except for the treats we gave him and the little bit off the teaspoon...

Do you think its okay to give him some yogurt to entice him?

Cindy

chico2
July 6th, 2010, 09:52 AM
I don't know much about what's wrong with bomber,but if he likes yogurt(mine don'T)for sure I'd give it to him..
He has to gain some strength back.
My vet put Rocky on Prednisone,just 1 5mg pill/day to make him drink more and eat,which he already did before:confused:

Love4himies
July 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM
I would give him anything right now...he just doesnt seem interested....The new vet did not care what I gave him...she just wants him to eat....

L4H he is off the Clavamox...last one was yesterday morning....we have to wait for the C&S to come back so she can finally prescribe the right anitbiotic....they wont be back until Friday. I will be letting her know that he hasnt eaten except for the treats we gave him and the little bit off the teaspoon...

Do you think its okay to give him some yogurt to entice him?

Cindy

If he will eat yogurt, yes.

I would try the Almo cat food. I get mine at Global and if Bomber likes tuna, I am sure he would like this food. It comes in a small can, perfect for treat size. There are many different flavours, so you can get whatever Bomber's fav is.
Jasper is a horrible kibble addict, hence why he lost so much weight when I stopped the kibble. When I feel him loosing weight, I mix the Almo and he gulps it down.

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 12:54 PM
Well I came home and Bomber was still upstairs but he changed bedrooms....maybe he was getting bored.....he couldnt be tempted to eat...and it seems today he doesnt like yogurt. So I headed back to the vet for a appetite stimulant called Periactin and we will see if that helps. The vet also asked if she could re run all the blood work the other vet did just to as she put it put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

She gave me the results of the Urine/Protein/Creatinine Ratio Tests and it is as follows:

Urine Protein 49
Urine Creatinine 8218
UrinePr/Creat Ratio 0.5 Range should be 0.0-0.2 and they indicate HIGH

We are waiting for the C&S , the CBC Panel, and also the newest blood work she requested to do today called feline ADR Plus (T4, fPL)...so I dont think I will have any more results until the end of the week....just hoping my boy desides to eat...I have to call her tomorrow and let her know if he has eaten and if not she said I can get a srynge and some special food and give it that way but she would like him to try on his own.

I have had the worst day!! not only am I worried sick about Bomber I decided to drive our new Edge to work and DH took mine....doesnt some $#%^&() hit me in the parkling lot I leave the car at..it looks like someone backed into me and then drove away....I could friggin scream....the license plate is pushed right in but it may have been the only thing to save the bumper?? and quite a few gouges and scratches....MAN I COULD KILL SOMEONE ! there are some real inconsiderate people out there!

End of rant......:(

Frenchy
July 6th, 2010, 01:32 PM
I'm so sorry Bomber isn't doing better Winston :(

ancientgirl
July 6th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Oy, when things just go wrong, it's like a domino effect.

Poor Bomber, no doubt it he's not feeling well, he likely may not feel like eating. Have you tried pouring some tuna water on his food? When one of the gang doesn't want to eat their food, I crush freeze dried chicken on top, those Food Toppers, and they begin to eat their food. I really hope your boy starts to eat soon.:pray:

Sorry about the car. People are just rotten!

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 01:36 PM
Thanks AG...you are right people are just too much sometimes....

I tried some parmeson cheese after giving him the first of the appetite stimulants and he went and hid under the bed so I an gonna leave him alone and see in awhile if he comes out on his own. Its so hot upstairs though I really dont want him under the bed??

Hope the gang is well...I will have to give the tuna a try.:thumbs up

Love4himies
July 6th, 2010, 02:09 PM
How crappy :grouphug:. I agree, people are so ignorant these days and don't own up to their responsibilities :yell: :frustrated:. :grouphug:

My cats won't eat food that I put parmesan cheese on it.

Did you look for the Almo? I haven't had a cat who didn't love it, it may be worth a try :shrug:.

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 02:44 PM
No L4H not yet..its been a crappy day. I am waiting for DH to come home and access the damage...and I can drive my one car! it wont be cheap anyway I look at it cause its a brand new car. Oh well I hope Karma plays itself!

hazelrunpack
July 6th, 2010, 03:11 PM
That sucks about the car, Winston :grouphug:

I hope Bomber at least comes around and starts eating again today :goodvibes:

chico2
July 6th, 2010, 03:47 PM
Yeah,me too:pray:
You know parkinglots are the worst places,it happened to me once too,but someone who saw it left me a note and a license-plate number.

I don't know what to say about Bomber,he just HAS to eat to survive:pray:
I hope the tests will show what's wrong,so something can be done to help him:pray::goodvibes::fingerscr

Love4himies
July 6th, 2010, 05:50 PM
I know you have had a rough day, Winston :grouphug:. I really hate rude people like that, but our laws don't do anything about it so they know they can get away with it :shrug: :frustrated: :mad:. :grouphug:

Sending some :goodvibes: for poor Bomber. :goodvibes:

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 05:54 PM
Okay I have managed to get him to eat a teeny bit again...he is scaring me tonight...he looks like he is stoned out of his mind and kinda swaying....mostly he seems to weak to get the energy up to eat. I have been bringing the food to him and wherever he is laying he nibbles or licks up the watered down food. Just now I tried paresan cheese..and then catnip and he ate some of it....I am far to scared to give him the second dose of meds???

Dh says we have to likely repaint the bumber and replace the license plate holder...:(

Winston
July 6th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Okay so Bomber has eaten a tiny bit...I am so worried sick though...he has been upstairs all day under a dresser....he can see us and we can pet him but he just wont move....if I try to take him out of there he just wimpers....I have been taking food up to him and he is taking it...little teeny bits but he is taking it...Just now I brought him a big bowl of water for the night and some soft food with water added and he was lapping it up when I came down....its so hot up there...I have fans going but I worry with him up there in the heat..

The lack of movement and lethargy worries me...I hope he hasnt given up...because he certainly seems like it. I couldnt bring myself to give him the second portion of the appetite stimulant cause he is so sad looking..

I will be checking in with the vet tomorrow to let her know how he is.....please pray for my boy!

Oh and if the day couldnt get any worse Winston has a large sore on his paw and has been licking it all night...I have it wrapped with polysporin and a vet wrap so he leaves it alone!

I hope tomorrow is a better day!

ancientgirl
July 7th, 2010, 07:13 AM
Oh Winston, your poor boy. I can imagine how worried you are. Perhaps he's just scared of coming out for fear you'll take him back to the vet.

:pray:he comes out today and starts to eat more.:pray:

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 08:39 AM
Well Bomber seemed a bit better this morning. He slept under the dresser all night but came down very slowly this morning to see me. He took a little more soft food with water in it. Only about a teaspoon but its still something.

I did not give me the Periactin last night or this morning because obviously thats what made him appear and feel so out of it! I will be giving the vet a call today to let her know how we did last night and to see if any other results are in.

Whats really weird about this whole thing with Bomber is that Tabitha and him are close, they are brother and sister, but she is paying no attention to him at all. Just seems weird.

Hoping for a better day today.:fingerscr

Love4himies
July 7th, 2010, 09:18 AM
Sending lots of :goodvibes::goodvibes: your way.

Has the vet done any ultra sounds or xrays on Bomber's kidneys?

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 09:22 AM
No not yet. We have done a complete blood panel, urinalysis and a Urine Protein/Creatinine/Ratio tests. I dont know if that will come next but she indicated yesterday that she wanted to do some other special tests witht he blood work and she said that way she would have all the pieces of the puzzle??

I really thought he wasnt going to make it through the night...but happy that this morning he seems to be a bit better. Thanks L4H....

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 09:24 AM
Oh and I finally got a reply from Wellness on the phosphorus and sodium amount... I am going to post it here in case anyone else needs these figures...

Dear Cindy,

Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness products.

Here are the nutritional values you have requested:

Dry Cat Foods

Complete Health Chicken 1.09% Phosphorus

Complete Health Salmon 0.93% Phosphorus

Healthy Weight 0.73% Phosphorus

Indoor Health 0.78% Phosphorus

Complete Health Kitten 1.20% Phosphorus

Core 1.29% Phosphorus


Canned Cat Foods

Chicken 0.31% Phosphorus

Chicken & Herring 0.37% Phosphorus

Beef & Chicken 0.28% Phosphorus

Turkey 0.28% Phosphorus

Turkey & Salmon 0.35% Phosphorus

Sardine, Shrimp & Crab 0.31% Phosphorus

Salmon & Trout 0.33% Phosphorus

Chicken & Lobster 0.33% Phosphorus

Beef & Salmon 0.26% Phosphorus

Kitten 0.34% Phosphorus

Core Canned Cat Foods

Chicken, Turkey, & Chicken Liver 0.30% Phosphorus

Salmon, Whitefish, & Herring 0.33% Phosphorus

Dry Cat Foods

Complete Health Chicken 0.23% Sodium

Complete Health Salmon 0.32% Sodium

Healthy Weight 0.23% Sodium

Indoor Health 0.18% Sodium

Complete Health Kitten 0.24% Sodium

Core 0.50% Sodium


Canned Cat Foods

Chicken 0.09% Sodium

Chicken & Herring 0.10% Sodium

Beef & Chicken 0.09% Sodium

Turkey 0.08% Sodium

Turkey & Salmon 0.11% Sodium

Sardine, Shrimp & Crab 0.14% Sodium

Salmon & Trout 0.13% Sodium

Chicken & Lobster 0.10% Sodium

Beef & Salmon 0.13% Sodium

Kitten 0.25% Sodium

Core Canned Cat Foods

Chicken, Turkey, & Chicken Liver 0.09% Sodium

Salmon, Whitefish, & Herring 0.17% Sodium

Thanks again for contacting us.

Mike Monahan
Representative
Consumer Affairs

chico2
July 7th, 2010, 10:18 AM
Winston,how about putting some food in a soup-spoon,like I do with Rocky.
Maybe Bomber just does not have the strength to sit and eat.
:grouphug:to you and little Bomber:goodvibes::goodvibes:

Chaser
July 7th, 2010, 10:31 AM
So sorry you're going through all this Winston :grouphug:

Chris21711
July 7th, 2010, 11:01 AM
Sorry to hear that Bomber is having such a crappy time of it Winston. I'm mustering all the good vibes I can for your boy....I hope Winston's paw is nothing serious.....Better days lie ahead :grouphug:

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 11:35 AM
I just received a phone message that Bombers kidneys are failing and that he may not make it....OMG I am so stressed. The vet needs me to bring him in right away...I am going to see if I can leave work and take him in.

Please keep us in your prayers.

Cindy

Love4himies
July 7th, 2010, 11:44 AM
OMG, Winston :cry: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes: :pray::pray::pray: :fingerscr:fingerscr

mastifflover
July 7th, 2010, 12:08 PM
:sorry: I hope Bomber recovers you and Bomber are in our thoughts :(

ancientgirl
July 7th, 2010, 12:54 PM
Winston, I'm sending prayers Bomber's way. I hope they can help him. :pray::pray::pray::pray:

Stay strong for your boy.:grouphug:

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 01:05 PM
Thanks guys I appreciate everything. I am with my little boy. He was still upstairs when I got home but he did lick all the juices up from the soft food I left this morning! I just laid with him for 1/2 hour and told him he is loved so much and that I need him to fight! and fight hard! All I know right now is she told me all of his levels are dramatically changed from the blood work from the previous vet and that if she didnt get him in and on an intervenace (sp?) that he may not make it. Apparrently the Urea and Creatinine levels have shot up ALOT. Now I just found out I cant get in until 4:15...so it gives me some quality time with my boy! He just followed me downstairs after we had our little talk and I gave him the can of Purina Maintenance from the vet and he ate a teeny bit. I hope that every teeny bit will help him thats all!

I am completey devastated thats all I can say between sobs at the moment. :cry::cry::cry: Sounds crazy but these pets are MY pets that I got on my own and not childhood pets and its like they are my children sort of?? I am sure some of you out there now what I mean. I am also positive that many of you have been through this before so you know what I am feeling like at the moment.

Bomber taught me what rescue was! along with his sister Tabitha and its so true! its when my life began in rescue....Ill let you know how we make out.

Cindy

Love4himies
July 7th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Good luck, Winston, and yes, I know how you feel. :grouphug:

chico2
July 7th, 2010, 01:32 PM
Winston,you know all of us are thinking of you and Bomber and yes,I too have been down that very sad route several times..
I am so very sorry,hopefully there is still hope he can be saved,but if not,we'll be here for you, maybe there is still hope:pray:

hazelrunpack
July 7th, 2010, 04:13 PM
:grouphug: So scary, Winston! I hope the vet can pull him through! :goodvibes:

sugarcatmom
July 7th, 2010, 04:20 PM
So sorry that you and Bomber are going through this! The vet clinic is the best place for him right now and I'm sure that after some IV fluids he'll be feeling tons better. :grouphug: :fingerscr

14+kitties
July 7th, 2010, 04:24 PM
:grouphug: I am so sorry you and Bomber are going through this. :grouphug: This has been a difficult thread for me to read because I have met Bomber and also because it is so soon after losing my boy. I am praying with all my might that things turn around for him. :grouphug:

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Well I am back home and Bomber is staying at the vets. His kidneys are failing and they feel that he needs IV fluids. He is scheduled to stay for 4 days until Saturday. I had a long talk with the vet and simply asked her if she felt he was suffering...Her reply was no he is a sick kitty. That gave me some hope. She also said that she felt the fluids would make him feel a lot better. I didnt want to put him through all of this if he didnt have a chance. She seemed to think he did but again she doesnt have a crystal ball.

His Creatinine level shot up to 1460. The C&S is still not back yet so I dont know about that. I imagine the IV fluids and antibiotics will help with the UIT if it shows what it is. She also said he is showing some pancreas issues but they are dealing with the kidney issues right now.

They tell me I can go and visit him which I will be doing for sure!

I just wish I could stop crying...:cry: I do for a second and then start again...thanks for the support guys! your all awesome....

cpietra16
July 7th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Winston, I always go on your post hoping for some good news...:(I'm glad to hear the vet doesn't feel he's suffering. :pray::pray::grouphug:we are pulling for you Bomber...

mastifflover
July 7th, 2010, 05:49 PM
:grouphug: for you and one for Bomber we are pulling for him

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 06:03 PM
Thanks so much guys....I know he needs to be there but I am just scared of loosing him...I know its inevitable at some point but I guess I am not ready.

Cpietra & ML I am feeling more hopeful....just hoping that my prayers will be answered...

Love4himies
July 7th, 2010, 06:13 PM
Oh no :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: . I didn't think kidneys would fail that quickly. Could it be just that he is dehydrated?

Winston
July 7th, 2010, 07:16 PM
Yes apparently they can go down hill quickly. She indicated his Urea was higher as well but said that may be from being dehydrated. She basically said he has a lot of toxins in his body right now and cant fight them. Alot of other amounts come back higher since he is sick..even the phosphorus counts were quite a bit higher. She did say that his WBC and RBC have gone up and that is good. She mentioned the pancreas and said he has symptoms of pancreatitus but we will wiat to see how he is after the iv. Basically they can treat him quicker and more efficiently than I can by the IV.

Bomber is my scaredy cat so I imagine he is gonna have a rough few days. Hopefully it will cheer him up a bit when I go visit.

ancientgirl
July 7th, 2010, 07:46 PM
Bless your boy, Winston. I hope the IV is helpful and he can regain his strength quickly. :pray:

luckypenny
July 7th, 2010, 11:29 PM
More prayers being sent your and Bomber's way, Cindy :grouphug:. Hoping tomorrow will bring a turn-around for him and he'll be on his way to a complete recovery with the right treatments :goodvibes:.

TeriM
July 8th, 2010, 12:59 AM
Prayers and good thoughts from my gang for Bomber. Hopefully the fluids will flush things along and then you can get him stable :goodvibes: :fingerscr :goodvibes:.

Hugs to you Winston. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:.

Love4himies
July 8th, 2010, 06:49 AM
Sending lots of :goodvibes: for Bomber today and a huge :grouphug: for you.

Winston
July 8th, 2010, 07:19 AM
Thank you everyone....I am hanging in there! Have a huge headache and my eyes are killing me! but I am hoping to hear some good news today...:fingerscr...thank you all so much for your good vibes and thoughts!

I think Tabitha has figured out Bomber is not there! she spent the night yodelling for him...god it broke my heart! :(

Cindy

chico2
July 8th, 2010, 07:54 AM
Winston,I was hoping he would be able to stay home:(but since he is very sick,he's better where he is...even if he hates it.
I can so understand your tears,just let them flow,I cry and don't even know Bomber..
I am :pray:for a miraculous full recovery for your little boy.

Winston
July 8th, 2010, 07:57 AM
Thank you Chico..:fingerscr

ancientgirl
July 8th, 2010, 08:00 AM
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your boy today. :pray::grouphug:

Winston
July 8th, 2010, 08:58 AM
Well I just checked on Bomber and the vet spoke to me. She said Bomber is hooked up to the IV and is receiving a high dose of antibiotics. He ate about 1/4 of the food they left him overnight so that is a good sign. She did indicate it is still very much touch and go and a waiting game to see if he is gonna respond to the treatment. She asked me if I could come visit him because she always feels that the cat does much better when they see a familiar face. I asked her if he was hiding in his carrier and she said no he is just sitting there watching them all work. She said they brought him down to the area they work in to give him some TLC....( I love this new vet already)

She is concerned about one thing and that is that she thinks that he still may have the UTI because the Clavamox wasnt really working but she thinks he may have a form of ecoli in the pancreas?? again she said we will deal with that once she has the C&S back from the lab.

So I am going for a visit after work today and I cant wait to give my boy a big kiss! Thanks for everyone's support and prayers and lets hope each day he gets better and can come home on Saturday!

ancientgirl
July 8th, 2010, 09:01 AM
That's wonderful that he ate. Hopefully the IV will help.:pray: Maybe he was really dehydrated.

Love4himies
July 8th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Well I just checked on Bomber and the vet spoke to me. She said Bomber is hooked up to the IV and is receiving a high dose of antibiotics. He ate about 1/4 of the food they left him overnight so that is a good sign. She did indicate it is still very much touch and go and a waiting game to see if he is gonna respond to the treatment. She asked me if I could come visit him because she always feels that the cat does much better when they see a familiar face. I asked her if he was hiding in his carrier and she said no he is just sitting there watching them all work. She said they brought him down to the area they work in to give him some TLC....( I love this new vet already)

She is concerned about one thing and that is that she thinks that he still may have the UTI because the Clavamox wasnt really working but she thinks he may have a form of ecoli in the pancreas?? again she said we will deal with that once she has the C&S back from the lab.



So I am going for a visit after work today and I cant wait to give my boy a big kiss! Thanks for everyone's support and prayers and lets hope each day he gets better and can come home on Saturday!

That is a great sign :thumbs up. Getting him flushed out will help so much with him feeling better. :grouphug:

cpietra16
July 8th, 2010, 11:09 AM
:grouphug: from all of us at the cpietra household...pass it on please...:D

Chris21711
July 8th, 2010, 11:15 AM
Lots of :pray:'s going out for Bomber Winston and :grouphug:'s for you.

mastifflover
July 8th, 2010, 12:01 PM
I am happy he is doing a little better we are still keeping him in our thoughts. I think all the good thoughts going his way are helping. :grouphug::pawprint:

Dog Dancer
July 8th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Winston, I've been following this thread and my heart is breaking for you guys and for poor Bomber. I sure hope they can get him on the rights soon and that he makes a full and speedy recovery. I agree he's probably best where he is, although I'm sure he's not very pleased about it. Poor Tabitha, they sure do miss their buddies when things aren't right don't they. Sure, they're "just cats". Hah! They're more human than a lot of humans I know. Prayers for a quick fix and strength for you all (and a lottery win maybe??).:grouphug:

Winston
July 8th, 2010, 03:53 PM
Well I stopped in to visit Bomber and I have to say it just devastated me even more! He gave me a little wimper when I said hello! :cry: he is not too happy to be there! he has a taped up front leg as if it was broken so he couldnt move really. He tried to get up but had trouble coordinating his new big paw....

They have been giving him syringe feedings and he is taking them well she said. He did eat a bit of dry this morning. She said he has been a really good boy for them. He did a bit of meowing at me when I was there but after a few minutes he stared at the wall and wouldnt look at me.....:( The trust we had for 14 years is most certainly gone now. We have this special bond and he really only trusts me....or did??

The C&S is back and she said it is negative?? So the antibiotics he was on (clavamox) from the old vet must have been working. She thought it would come back with ecoli but it didnt. I asked her what she thought about how he may be doing and she said he seems okay but the bloodwork needs to be repeated after the IV so they can see if there is any improvement in his kidney function. She may try to check his blood tomorrow. Then she ever so kindly said that I may have to make some decisions depending on its outcome. :cry:

My heart is broken...and I dont know if I can make that decision...:cry::cry:

One thing I am questioning now is whether it is the Fortekor that made his kidneys have this problem because obviously the clavamox was working for the UTI and that would have been the origional reason for him urinating outside the box....I am going to ask the new vet what she thinks?

Dog Dancer
July 8th, 2010, 04:02 PM
Winston so sorry to hear that your visit was so hard on you. Of course it would be. I'm sure in his heart Bomber still loves and trusts you - and in your heart you know this too. Again, you're in my prayers.

chico2
July 8th, 2010, 04:20 PM
Awww Winston,I am so sorry:(
I was going to say when you said you are visiting him,that it probably will be a heartbreaker to see him,but I am sure you needed to,our kitties just don't understand unfortunately.
Of course he still loves you,he just does not like the strange environment he's in,the strange people that are touching him:(probably just wants out of there,I know my cats would.
I don't know what to say,I just wish I could help,wish Bomber was doing good and could come home to the family he loves.
Did the vet give you any idea of what Bombers chances are?

sugarcatmom
July 8th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Well I stopped in to visit Bomber and I have to say it just devastated me even more!

Oh sweetie, I so understand this :grouphug:. When Aztec was critically ill from diabetic ketoacidosis, he had to spend a week in the 24hr emergency clinic. I would visit him twice a day, and it broke my heart to see him there cause he was so scared. He would try to climb into my arms as soon as he saw me.

The trust we had for 14 years is most certainly gone now. We have this special bond and he really only trusts me....or did??

It's still there, I promise. He's just a little overwhelmed right now. When you are visiting him, try to project calm thoughts and visualize him happy and healthy again. Kitties are so sensitive to our emotions that I think it's really beneficial if we can be strong for them when they're sick.

One thing I am questioning now is whether it is the Fortekor that made his kidneys have this problem

I don't know enough about Fortekor to comment, but make sure you tell the vet that Bomber was taking Metacam for a little while, as per the previous vet. I personally think that might be a bigger factor.

mastifflover
July 8th, 2010, 05:10 PM
I am so sorry this is happening to Bomber and you but I still am being an optimist, that things are going to turn around :sorry::cry2:

ancientgirl
July 8th, 2010, 05:21 PM
I'm sorry you feel so bad after your visit. I still feel Bomber will come through this. :pray::grouphug:

Love4himies
July 8th, 2010, 05:27 PM
It's still there, I promise. He's just a little overwhelmed right now. When you are visiting him, try to project calm thoughts and visualize him happy and healthy again. Kitties are so sensitive to our emotions that I think it's really beneficial if we can be strong for them when they're sick.

Absolutely, the vet had us come to visit Puddles when she was in the hospital for a few days, hooked up to IV, and he asked us to behave as we normally would be around her.

I don't know enough about Fortekor to comment, but make sure you tell the vet that Bomber was taking Metacam for a little while, as per the previous vet. I personally think that might be a bigger factor.

I hope if it is metacam, the kidney function will return :pray:

:grouphug: to you Winston.

cpietra16
July 8th, 2010, 05:31 PM
Winston, th etruat will always be there. Bomber knows what you are doing , you are doing for his own good...don't doubt yourself. :pray:for the best.

Winston
July 8th, 2010, 08:42 PM
Thanks again everyone....I received a card in the mail today from the old vet with a reminder to come in for a recheck on the urine. They are just a tad too late. He would have been finished the clavamox already and they were to test it a week before he finishes.??

SCM I never even thought about the metacam?? OMG he told me it was okay to give him a few drops when he was in pain. I guess it may have been harming him. I will mention it tomorrow.

Tabitha is sleeping at the moment and I am hoping for a yodelling free night..this has been very exhausting...:grouphug::fingerscr

14+kitties
July 8th, 2010, 08:59 PM
:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: No words. :(:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

hazelrunpack
July 8th, 2010, 10:26 PM
Sending more :goodvibes: and :pray:s for your boy, Winston! I hope tomorrow brings you good news! :grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
July 9th, 2010, 01:24 AM
My Rocky too,is very skinny,it does not show much on his pics,but you can feel every bone in his spine and he eats very good:confused:
Maybe Wellness,is not great if you want your cat to gain weight:confused:that's all my cats eat+treats.

Rocky's lack of weight gain is due to the HyperT not the food. :cat:

I had a long talk with the vet and simply asked her if she felt he was suffering...Her reply was no he is a sick kitty. That gave me some hope. She also said that she felt the fluids would make him feel a lot better

.....

His Creatinine level shot up to 1460. The C&S is still not back yet so I dont know about that. I imagine the IV fluids and antibiotics will help with the UIT if it shows what it is. She also said he is showing some pancreas issues but they are dealing with the kidney issues right now.

CRF doesn't physically pain the animal/person, but it sure makes them feel cr@ppy when not controlled. The high levels of proteinuria also contributes greatly to feeling/acting sick. The IV fluids will directly remove the toxins faster from the blood stream plus help the kidneys flush out faster.

Sometimes the urea & crea can drop all the way back into normal after a couple of days on IV, but once off it will start to climb back up. The pancreas issues may be related to the high kidney values & could reverse when the bun & crea are under control.

he has a taped up front leg as if it was broken so he couldnt move really. He tried to get up but had trouble coordinating his new big paw....

Chances are Bomber tried to take the IV line out himself :cat: & they needed to ensure a stable IV line so extra wrapping.

The C&S is back and she said it is negative?? So the antibiotics he was on (clavamox) from the old vet must have been working. She thought it would come back with ecoli but it didnt. I asked her what she thought about how he may be doing and she said he seems okay but the bloodwork needs to be repeated after the IV so they can see if there is any improvement in his kidney function. She may try to check his blood tomorrow.

You may be looking at:
pyelonephritis (http://www.felinecrf.org/causes_of_crf.htm#pyelonephritis) ie bacterial infection of the kidneys, in which is not uncommon for nothing to grow in a c&s, the only real way to rule out pyelonephritis is by ultrasound. There was concern that Duffy might've had pyelo but the ultrasound revealed her kidneys were free of infection, but she had a very persistant ecoli UTI.

and/or Pancreatitis (http://www.harpsie.com/pancreatitis.htm) which also really needs an ultrasound for accurate diagnosis. At one point after a weekend in ER on IV fluids Duffy was also suspected of having pancreatitis as the symptoms seemed to fit even though the fPLI came back normal, but as the ultrasound showed she had a very mild case of IBS & a specific protein allergy.

As I've mentioned before an ultrasound is a valuable diagnostic tool to check the structure of the kidneys & urinary tract as well as the rest of the internal organs such as the pancreas, intestines etc. Any inflammation, growth, crystals, or scarring will show on an ultrasound, giving you a clearer picture for treatment.

Then she ever so kindly said that I may have to make some decisions depending on its outcome. :cry:

Don't try to cross that bridge until you get there :grouphug: wait for the results & see how he's feelng tomorrow & Sat morning. :goodvibes:

One thing I am questioning now is whether it is the Fortekor that made his kidneys have this problem because obviously the clavamox was working for the UTI and that would have been the origional reason for him urinating outside the box....I am going to ask the new vet what she thinks?

As mentioned earlier the Fortekor can increase the crea levels, but I suspect the combination of it with the metacam might have something to do with it, was Bomber's blood pressure taken prior to prescribing Fortekor?

http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#benazepril_cautions
ACE inhibitors may cause lethargy, particularly when first begun. This may be a sign that blood pressure has fallen too low, which in turn may lead to an increase in creatinine levels as described above.

ACE inhibitors may interact with Metacam (meloxicam), a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, so do not give both medications to your cat without checking with your vet first; but I would advise against using Metacam in a CRF cat anyway

ancientgirl
July 9th, 2010, 07:21 AM
:grouphug::grouphug::pray::pray:

cpietra16
July 9th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Bomber you need to beat this....:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:; if you can survive dangling an inch from death....you can beat this too.....:pray:

chico2
July 9th, 2010, 08:03 AM
Winston,to you and Bomber!

Love4himies
July 9th, 2010, 11:16 AM
How is Bomber this morning?
:goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes:
for him.

Winston
July 9th, 2010, 12:54 PM
I just came from visiting Bomber and having a check with the vet. I am happier today with the visit because Bomber seems better. I wont get my hopes up but when I came in he got up and came to me when they opened the cage. He did give me a few head butts but he was PURRING!!! I know I am not to let him know I am upset but I couldnt help the tears when he did that! it made me so happy... My boy does look miserable but yet happier than yesterday. What bothers me is when he lays down he rests his neck and head on the edge of the litter box?? looks so uncomfortable. He has figured out how to sort of get up and turn around with his extra large leg....

The vet said his kidney levels are now down to 900 from the 1400 so we are making progress. She wants to keep Bomber longer than Saturday now. Maybe Monday?? I discussed the metacam and she said she will check into it. She only uses it as a last resort and if a patient is end state. She didnt really want to comment on the other vet and that is fine but I have my own opinion. I just wish I never took Bomber back to that vet and just went with my instincts and went to the cat clinic in the first place?? Because my opinion is that the UTI should have been treated and he should not have been prescribed either the fortekor or metacam. I wish I knew then what I know now?? Because I think that the medication has forced his kidneys into this state.

She is worried that if I bring him home too soon that he will plummet...I didnt know yesterday but his temperature was low yesterday and when I went to visit it was really warm in the cage and she said that they had him on a heater. But today his temperature went back up.

They are only open till noon tomorrow so I will check in with the vet and see him tomorrow and decide what the next course of action is. They do have someone that comes in on the closed days rather than transfer them to the emergency hospital so thats good.

The biggest thing I noticed today when visiting and I mentioned to the assistant because the vet had left for lunch but Bombers eyes were beautiful looking today. The past few days they were clouded and foggy looking and the tech agreed that they look better. Hopefully this is a good thing!

I dont know what I would be doing without all of friends and support I get from this site..thank you so much everyone...keeep the good vibes coming...:thumbs up

Love4himies
July 9th, 2010, 01:02 PM
I am so glad he is feeling better :thumbs up.

Hmmmmm, you mentioned his temp being low. That would be consistent with low blood pressure as Growler mentioned in her post from the Fortekor along with the increase in cre levels.:shrug:

chico2
July 9th, 2010, 04:04 PM
Winston,I am glad this visit was a little easier,but of course you'd cry still,you want him home and healthy and I hope that happens at least on Monday.
We are kind of a family here,a family of animal-lovers and if one is ailing or sad,I think we all feel it,so he just has to get better:pray:
Would you be allowed to bring him something from home?
Maybe one of your T-Shirts or something?

ancientgirl
July 9th, 2010, 06:13 PM
I'm so happy to read that Bomber has improved! I think if I were in your shoes, I'd let the vet keep him until Monday. At least for me, I'd feel comfortable knowing that when I brought him home, he was passed any difficult stage .:grouphug:

hazelrunpack
July 9th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Must have been such a relief to see him feeling better, Winston! :grouphug: I'm with AG. If there will be people there to keep an eye on him over the weekend, I'd be inclined to leave him at the vet. He's where he needs to be to get back on the right track! :goodvibes:

TeriM
July 10th, 2010, 12:01 AM
I'm so glad he is feeling better. Hoping for continued improvements :goodvibes: :fingerscr :goodvibes:.

Winston
July 10th, 2010, 11:53 AM
I spent some time with Bomber today. The vet told me she discussed Bomber in great length with her colleague and they both felt it was best for him to stay longer. I have to go with what they think best.

Today Bomber wasnt as good as yesterday. He did come to me and give me some headbutts butt he was very very shaky?? The vet asked me how I thought he was doing and I mentioned the shaking when he stands up. She said they took him off Torb (pain killer) early in the am....she thought that may be why so she gave him a shot while I was there. He did seem a little more out of it after the pain shot was administered too! What bothered me was he went to the water bowl, laid down in front of it and placed his chin and mouth in the both. I thought he was getting a drink but he was just sitting there like that?? When I tried to give him a drink he had some difficulty with it?? and then placed his head back in the bowl?? it was weird...,,eventually he laid down on his side and I gave him at least 1 million pets and he seemed relaxed. I see the reason they want him to stay he appears far to weak at this point...

He pooped and has been using the litter box. His temperature is normal again today and he is eating. They are still giving him a bit with a syringe. She did not check the kidney figures today I imagine it will be Monday.

I asked about his care because they are closed and she said that either herself or her collegue will be in at least twice and then she also showed me that she watches them on a web cam from home....she will call me tomorrow and let me know how he is.

Thanks for all the positive thoughts !! lets hope the kidney values are good on Monday...

Cindy

cpietra16
July 10th, 2010, 11:57 AM
this is so difficult for you...:(:grouphug:. It seems like the vets are giving hima fighting chance...:pray:

sugarcatmom
July 10th, 2010, 02:44 PM
then she also showed me that she watches them on a web cam from home....

Wow, that's awesome!!! I like this vet.

Continued good vibes for you and Bomber....:goodvibes: :fingerscr :grouphug:

ancientgirl
July 10th, 2010, 02:51 PM
:grouphug:I hope the time he is spending there will help him get well. It's nice to know this vet cares about her patients.

mikischo
July 10th, 2010, 07:58 PM
I just got back from a week's vacation and I was sorry to read what you and Bomber are going through right now. Much as you don't like to leave him at the vet's, it is essential that he remain on IV fluids for several days to help bring his numbers down.

Good to hear that his numbers did go down significantly after less than two days on the IV. :goodvibes::goodvibes: pawsitive :pawprint: thoughts that the numbers are continuing to improve. It is also a good sign that he is doing some eating on his own.

I know this is a very difficult time for you.:grouphug: We are all thinking of you and Bomber:cat:.

Winston
July 10th, 2010, 11:09 PM
Thank you :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
July 11th, 2010, 02:34 AM
Today Bomber wasnt as good as yesterday. He did come to me and give me some headbutts butt he was very very shaky?? The vet asked me how I thought he was doing and I mentioned the shaking when he stands up. She said they took him off Torb (pain killer) early in the am....she thought that may be why so she gave him a shot while I was there. He did seem a little more out of it after the pain shot was administered too! What bothered me was he went to the water bowl, laid down in front of it and placed his chin and mouth in the both. I thought he was getting a drink but he was just sitting there like that?? When I tried to give him a drink he had some difficulty with it?? and then placed his head back in the bowl?? it was weird...,,eventually he laid down on his side and I gave him at least 1 million pets and he seemed relaxed. I see the reason they want him to stay he appears far to weak at this point...

Bomber was given Torbugesic? :wall: It's more a sedative than pain med :wall:

A conventional vet in 2009 gave Duffy a small dose of Torbugesic prior to a manual stool evacuation -after not allowing me to instead give her a homeopathic remedy she'd had before- & I was told it would clear her system in about 2 hours & she would be fine.............12 hours later she was still loopy - totally out of it, unable to eat/drink/walk she was so unsteady. I had to run out to the Homeopath Vet at 11pm after they were closed to pick up a remedy they left outside for me in order to counteract the effects.

http://www.vasg.org/perioperative_pain_management_part_ii.htm

BUTORPHANOL (torbugesic, torbutrol) is a kappa agonist with moderate sedative effects capable of providing mild analgesia. Often the sedation outlasts the analgesia. Canine studies have failed to demonstrate analgesia past 45 minutes[i],[ii]. Feline studies have failed to show analgesia past 90 minutes[iii],[iv]. In fact some studies have failed to show analgesia of any significance in dogs and cats[v],[vi]. Interestingly, Lascelles & Robertson’s research in cats failed to demonstrate a difference in the analgesic intensity or duration as the dose was increased from 0.1 mg/kg to 0.8 mg/kg4. A significant number of these healthy cats demonstrated dysphoria when butorphanol was used as a sole agent.

**Dysphoria is defined as depression, anxiety, irritability, restlessness**

Butorphanol 0.2 to 0.4 mg/kg can be combined with either acepromazine or medetomidine in healthy patients to create an effective preanesthetic or procedural sedation combination. Butorphanol can also be combined with a benzodiazepine, either midazolam or diazepam, to sedate aged and less healthy patients. Butorphanol is not an effective analgesic when delivered by the oral route as butorphanol undergoes significant first-pass metabolism after oral administration. Couple the low oral bioavailability with butorphanol’s short duration of effect and you would have to give a dog at least 1.0 mg/kg every 45 minutes to gain any meaningful analgesia.

A logical companion for butorphanol is buprenorphine. Butorphanol’s analgesic onset is rapid but the mild analgesia is of short duration. Buprenorphine’s time to peak analgesic effect is quite slow even when given by the IV route but its analgesic duration can be quite long. When administered together, butorphanol’s short-term analgesia wanes as buprenorphine is reaching its peak effect.

One additional application for butorphanol is that of a mu antagonist. If a patient is exhibiting undesirable mu agonist effects while on morphine or hydromorphone (dysphoria, excess sedation, or excessive respiratory depression) butorphanol can reduce the unwanted mu agonist effects without total loss of patient analgesia.

In general, butorphanol does NOT give you much bang for the buck. Butorphanol costs about ten times more than morphine, per dose, while providing much more limited analgesia of much shorter duration.

After the experience Duffy had w/torbugesic I would not allow it to be used on any animal of mine :2cents:

:goodvibes: Hope Bomber is doing better tomorrow & :fingerscr for Monday's tests

Winston
July 11th, 2010, 06:59 PM
The vet called me twice today at home to let me know about Bomber. I was out both times she called. They were just updates but she said there has really not been any signifigant change in Bomber. He was eating and was comfortable but she was hoping he would have perked back up by now.

She indicated that Bomber will be still given another 15-17 hours of IV and then we will have to have a discussion...:( I am to give her a call in the morning. She mentioned she was going to run the blood work again in the morning to see if there is improved kidney function.

Maybe this sounds selfish but I have been thinking about this since yesterday. I want to bring Bomber home if possible and see if he changes his mood. He is stuck in the cage which he hasnt been in one in 14yrs! its not a very large cage so he can stand up, turn around and thats about it. He isnt walking around and most imprtantly he is not at home where everything is familiar?? I think he is sort of depressed..????

I need to be sure he can come home medically though??

It certainly isnt home without him here....:cry:

sugarcatmom
July 11th, 2010, 07:10 PM
He was eating

That's a great sign! :thumbs up Even if he doesn't seem as perky as the vet would like, I think the fact that he's eating is hugely important.


Maybe this sounds selfish but I have been thinking about this since yesterday. I want to bring Bomber home if possible and see if he changes his mood.

Not selfish at all. I definitely wouldn't make any decisions without first seeing how he does at home after he's finished with the IV fluids. Like Bomber, Aztec gets totally depressed when he has to stay at the vet clinic. He refuses to eat and tries to hide in the litter box :(. What you could do is get the vet to show you how to administer subQ fluids at home, in case Bomber would benefit from the extra hydration on a regular basis.

Big hugs to you :grouphug:

ancientgirl
July 11th, 2010, 07:22 PM
I hope the blood tests show improvement. I don't blame you for wanting him home. I imagine he's missing his mommy and his home. Kiska hasn't done well the few times I've had to leave her overnight either.

:pray:Sending more prayers your way.

Tundra_Queen
July 13th, 2010, 02:55 AM
Winston I'm sorry to hear about Bomber, I hope he is able to come home soon. :grouphug:

Winston
July 13th, 2010, 03:49 AM
Thank you TQ..Bomber passed yesterday morning...I appreciate your kind words.

PumpkinPal
July 13th, 2010, 04:06 AM
I'm so sorry. :cry:

Run free over the bridge, sweet angel. :candle:

Hugs to you Winston. :grouphug: