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not everyone wants a purebred dog - thoughts on BYB

MBRA518
September 8th, 2004, 02:16 PM
A comment was mentioned on another board I belong to:

"not everyone wants a purebred dog... some crossbreeds and mutts have better temperaments and less genetic issues"

Now puppy mills I do not agree with at all; but are all BYB, or breeders of non recognized breeds bad? What about the people that breed cross breeds for the love of it.. I mean this is an accepted practice all the time with horses, to get the best of both breeds. Isn't this practice how any of the recognized breeds around today came into existence?

Is anyone who breeds dogs that are not shown a BYB, or is it just the ones who do so with no concern for the dogs or what they are breeding for? I mean I don't agree with people pumping out puppies just for profit, with no concern for the heath, temperament or life of the pups... but what about responsible breeders who love their dogs and the breed/cross breed? I mean I know of people who breed pure bred dogs with impressive show credentials (usually more than one breed), but the dogs live in kennels and they own like 30... I would personally rather see a family with a well loved dog, doing all the right vet checks, paying attention to health and temperament, breeding and raising puppies in the home and finding loving forever home for those "mutts" than the above board pure bred people with 30 dogs. JMO.

Also what about people who breed pure bred dogs that are shown is events other than breed shows - like field trials, herding competitions and such? Are they considered BYB's or good above board breeders?

I'm interested to know everyone else's thoughts on this.

Beautygirl
September 8th, 2004, 02:44 PM
I don't have much of an opinion of BYB, but I have to say that our dog Beauty is a mix-breed dog and we love her. We adopted her from the SPCA and I have no idea where she came from, but she is an awesome dog. I really don't know much about Puppy Mills and BYB so I don't really have any strong feelings about them. I just think that dogs (or any animals should be treated well).

LavenderRott
September 8th, 2004, 02:52 PM
With over 100,000 dogs listed on petfinder, I am having a hard time seeing the redeeming qualities of anyone breeding mix breed dogs on purpose. The only reason to do so would be to make money and that is not what dog breeding should be about.

GsdDiamond
September 8th, 2004, 02:56 PM
I am by no means an expert in this field, and will only give my personal feelings on this. (deep breath) So, here goes....

A breeder of registered dogs is doing so to better (hopefully) the breed by attempting to breed out genetic impurities in the breed. A breeder who breeds two dogs with imperfect hips is just asking for the pups to carry the dysplasia (sp?) gene.
Most (reputable) breeders will have the prospective owers sign a contract indicating whether or not they're allowed to breed the dogs, or have them fixed. Another deciding factor, for some people, is the cost of the dog. (Not that I would do this!!!!) Some people see a dog they pay $500+ for as an investment. If someone "buys" a dog from a BYB for $50, then what's to stop them from dumping the dog once they're tired of it, or it starts to mis-behave? Not much.

BYB have no stipulations when dogs are purchased. Do the pups they sell get fixed? Probably not. Who buys them? There are lots of dogs in shelters and city pounds who need homes. Most of those came from BYB.

This is my opinion, and there are probably lots of BYB who LOVE their dogs. But I'd be hard pressed to find one that actually cares about the dog and not the money they're making.

Remember....this is just my opinion.

Lucky Rescue
September 8th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Agree with Sandi. When the 103,000 dogs on Petfinder are all adopted, and the shelters are empty, maybe then people can think about breeding dogs.

Until then, I see no reason to add to that number, and can't imagine how anyone could possibly justify it.

MBRA518
September 8th, 2004, 03:48 PM
I agree with everything you guys have said... but you didn't really answer my questions.

GsdDiamond - referring to the BYB you describe - I agree with you. But there are people out there that take all the necessary precautions for health, temperament, genetic defects, confirmation and such and are breeding either mixed breeds for a purpose (to get the best of 2 breeds) or un-shown registered dogs.

LavenderRott and LuckyRescue... you state with 103,000 dogs on pet finder you find it hard to see any justification... however I see it just as hard to justify pure breed breeding in those terms. Also I'm not talking about the people who breed anything to anything to make a quick buck... but basically a reputable breeder breeding for all the same reasons, ad with the same precautions as a purebred show dog breeder... but just not show dogs. Aren't these people better than the "reputable" breeder with 30 dogs - who does everything right - but runs it like a business?

Just to clarify... I'm not a breeder, nor do I plan on becoming one - just thought this could be an interesting depate.

BigDog
September 8th, 2004, 04:36 PM
If we put aside all the wrong reasons of breeding and mixing breeds such as puppy mills for money, I think sometimes there is a wonderful result of mixing two breeds, even if these new cross-breeds are not recognized internationally, many people cultivate them.
From my own experience I can tell that there is a great non-recognized breed called Moskovskaya Storozhevaya (Shepherd), it's a mix of St.Bernard and Shepherd (not sure how this particular kind of shepherd is called in English, in Russian it's called Caucasian Shepherd).
Moskovskaya Storozhevaya is a dog with goofy look of Saint, but with less drools (!!!) :p , it also has more protective traits and higher physical endurance from Shepherd, but is not that energetic and still is quite a calm and laid back breed that is very suitable in an apartment.
Here is the link to see this breed if you are curious http://www.dogterminal.com/list.php?breed=541
I owned a dog of this breed in the past, of course they are a little bit different within the breed, mine was closer to Saint than to Shepherd, but anyway he was a perfect boy...

GsdDiamond
September 8th, 2004, 04:45 PM
There are some very beautiful breeds out there, indeed. But as others said, there are so many homeless, unwanted dogs in shelters, that until they're all adopted, there's no need to breed dogs, unless you want a purebred.

I bought a purebred only because I love the breed, and I specifically asked for a long hair GSD. We were in a pet store, at the end of our street, one day, and the employees often bring their own animals in while at work, instead of leaving them at home, alone. Well, one of the employees had a long hair GSD and we fell in love with him. Not being able to take him, we asked where she got him. It turns out the breeders buy their food from them, so we got connected. We read up on the breed, knowing what to expect good & bad.

I've had a couple of dogs previous to Diamond. A white Lab X which turned out to be a nasty dog. At 4 months of age, no matter what you tried, this dog wanted blood. It bit family members and my roommate, all times drawing blood. The vet said there was no underlying illness she could detect and could not understand why the dog was acting this way. I tried puppy classes for dogs with temperment problems and she was a perfect angel, until we left class. I could not keep the dog, so I had to bring her to a shelter. I told them what her problem was and hoped that they could adopt her out to someone with more knowledge than I had.
My second dog had to stay in the house I lived in previously. I moved from there to an apartment and couldn't take her. It was some years until I had a house again and it wouldn't be fair to her to yank her from her home she knew from puppyhood. She was blind and that would be the most unfair thing to do.
Both these dogs were from BYB, well before I knew about them (I was pretty naive (sp?). Would I trust a BYB again? Not a hope in Hades.

Writing4Fun
September 8th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Also I'm not talking about the people who breed anything to anything to make a quick buck... but basically a reputable breeder breeding for all the same reasons, ad with the same precautions as a purebred show dog breeder... but just not show dogs. Aren't these people better than the "reputable" breeder with 30 dogs - who does everything right - but runs it like a business?
A "reputable" breeder would never consider cross-breeding. They breed, as GsdDiamond indicated, for the betterment of the breed they love. Just because someone has 30 dogs doesn't mean they're a "reputable" breeder. A "good" breeder, IMO, is someone who breeds carefully to create the best representation of a specific breed. They treat their dogs as members of their families. It is not a business to them - they rarely, if ever, actually turn a profit. Someone who is looking to run a business would do better to buy a computer and become an accountant instead of a dog breeder! Anyone who breeds with careful consideration to the breed's conformation and health issues should also be showing their dogs. How do you know your dogs are the best of the best if they've never been judged as such by the experts in the field? That's like me saying I'm the best chef on the face of the planet without ever having food critics taste my meals. (By the way, I can't cook to save my life :D ) As for breeding 2 breeds for a purpose - what is that purpose? I can't really understand justifying this cross-breeding. To get a supposedly hypo-allergenic Golden Retriever? There is no shuch thing! These cross-breeds were created for one purpose - to fleece gullible folks like you and me out of our hard-earned cash. I'm very unclear on the whole process - and I'm hoping someone out there can clarify it for me. How can anyone guarantee that a pup will come out with Poodle fur and Golden Retriever temperment?? What happens if it doesn't? Where do the pups born with non-Poodle fur go?? :confused:

BigDog
September 8th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Writing4fun, can't argue with you - you have some very good points, but as for mixing two breeds, how do you think many of now presented breeds appeared? people breeded different dogs until they got the kind they liked, and then cultivated this kind. There are many breeds now that were created this way, some - several hundreds years ago, some - several years, but still with human participation in breeding.

Writing4Fun
September 8th, 2004, 05:08 PM
BigDog - Granted. I just think we've come to a point where there are enough breeds - we really don't need anyone "creating" new ones! I don't know how they went about doing it, but it seems to me it was done for a specific purpose (i.e. to better herd the sheep). It also took a very long time and a lot of trial and error. Do we really need any more of those "errors" in our shelters??

BigDog
September 8th, 2004, 05:20 PM
There are close chances to end up in shelter for a purebred puppy bought by irresponsible owner and for a purposely mixed pup from a breeder who is making experiments to create a new kind (of course I talk about people who breed dogs for the love for these animals, not for the profit from puppy mills).
I agree that BYB should not multiple kinds of dogs in shelters, but these jerks breed purebred dogs and sell them to anybody, often sick or with behaviaral problems caused by poor breeding, and these purebred dogs also end up in shelters :( so what if they sell purebred or mixed, it is still not a good thing to do!
What I'm trying to say - we should protest against BYB in general, not to mix up BYB and good breeders who cross dogs trying to improve their breed or to make a new one. Of course if they treat these "experimental" pups with the same responsibility and find good homes for them or just keep them.

Writing4Fun
September 8th, 2004, 05:42 PM
You're right, BigDog - just because someone is breeding pure-breeds, doesn't mean they are a "good" breeder. And just because someone buys a pure-bred puppy doesn't mean that pup won't end up in a shelter. We should be focusing on abuse and neglect in every quarter.

I can't say I agree with cross-breeding to improve a breed or create new ones. You do make good points - this was done at some point in every breed's history. But with the state of things today, it's hard enough keeping tabs on the pure-bred breeders - who's going to watch the "responsible" cross-breeders to make sure they don't get out of line?? Maybe I'm just jaded, but I believe that the folks who are cross-breeding for the love of their breed are few and far between - the world seems to be overrun with people trying to breed for profit!

I'd still like someone to answer the questions for me - how can a breeder be 100% certain that a cross-breed will contain the characteristics they're breeding for (i.e. hypoallergenic qualities or low-shedding)? And what happens to the pups that don't have those qualities? Maybe I should ask Paws R Us or Rainbow Park??

melanie
September 8th, 2004, 06:38 PM
um i dont want a pure bred dog, it would make me feel to lower class and i could never get comfy with it, i would always feel i had to perform:D :D

we got a pup from a breeder (mothers girlfriend) when i was a small girl (25yrs ago), when we got him we were told that we could never have his breed papers as we were never allowed to breed him, it was part of the agreement, the ppl who bred him just loved goldens so much they never wanted him bred (i think they were worried about breeding could lead to abuse), just loved. i always thought that very nice an sweet, and somewhat responsible. but they are old and retired now and dont breed anymore. in a world of mixed races and skin colors, why not have mix dogs, they will be our equals :D :D :D

Goldenmom
September 8th, 2004, 06:46 PM
um i dont want a pure bred dog, it would make me feel to lower class and i could never get comfy with it, i would always feel i had to perform:D :D

Girl, sometimes you have some very strange ideas :eek: :eek: :confused:

BigDog
September 8th, 2004, 07:28 PM
When breeders mix two types of dogs they can not say for sure what treits from both kinds the pup will take. They can just guess and count on dominating features of each breed.
It is possible to cross breeds and get exactly what you programmed only if you worked in a lab researching genes, separating needed genes and when putting needed genes in needed order in the structure of the new pup.
Could you imagine BYB doing this this work?
They cross breeds to very just outfit of the dog, not low-shedding of hyppo-allergency factors, it's different from enchancing of the existing breed and building of the new one.

Cflat
September 8th, 2004, 07:51 PM
The only reasons anyone would purposely breed dogs:

1. For profit (labradoodle - need I say more).
2. Stupidity (geez I didn't know that my girl dog could have babies after being with the boy dog).
3. Feelings of true love of the breed and wanting to breed in good and out bad.
4. Wanting to have that really smart herding dog but it not shed (border-poodle - K I made that up but you get the pic).

Why on earth does anyone think that we need a non shedding herding dog? How many dogs do we have to breed until we get one that is perfect in our eyes? We have got to get over this perfection and clear lines malarky.

Did anyone ever think that so many races of people were put on the same earth so that someday there was only one and that in doing so we would not only have learned to love and live with one another but BE one another. Why would it be so bizarre for that to happen to dogs, cats etc.?


Just my opinion!

MBRA518
September 8th, 2004, 07:59 PM
I'd still like someone to answer the questions for me - how can a breeder be 100% certain that a cross-breed will contain the characteristics they're breeding for (i.e. hypoallergenic qualities or low-shedding)? And what happens to the pups that don't have those qualities? Maybe I should ask Paws R Us or Rainbow Park??

Well you can't be 100% certain of what you'll get in a cross breed... but you also can't be 100% certain when breeding pure breeds either. A "good" cross breeder does the same as a good pure breeder... they take 2 dogs with the best of the traits they want to pass on and hope for the best.

I've known a few people that cross bred on purpose, and read about breeders of this type on the internet and such - and they are usually cross breeding for things like temperment, size or look... so they are things that you can be some what sure of what to expect.

For the pups that don't turn out as expected... it's like for any breeder - the ones that don't make the cut are found homes like any other dog... for a pure bred breeder those would be the non-show quality or pet quality pups that good breeders often sell for a lower price than a show quality dog.

One thing no one has mentioned yet... what about the people who breed working dogs and only show at working competitions - like herding, hunting and such?

Cflat
September 8th, 2004, 08:03 PM
I hope for everyone of these breeders that you mention they rescue TWICE as many as they produce and that they take back ALL dogs that don't work out or have health issues. At the very minimum they are responsible for that. If breeders were held to doing that I can guarantee there would be a heck of a lot less. I can't believe anyone can condone breeding period.

Lucky Rescue
September 8th, 2004, 08:30 PM
I hope for everyone of these breeders that you mention they rescue TWICE as many as they produce and that they take back ALL dogs that don't work out or have health issues. At the very minimum they are responsible for that.

Since Petfinder has a huge number of purebreds of all kinds (even obscure breeds) the conclusion has to be that most breeders are not reputable, are churning out puppies for $$$ and couldn't care less where they end up.

For anyone who wants a mixed breed, there are no shortage of those being dumped - even entire litters of young puppies. There is NO reason in the world for anyone to be deliberately breeding them.

There is no reason to breed unless you are bettering the breed. You can only find out if your dog is breeding quality by titling and health testing and anyone breeding and not doing that is just a byber who is either ignorant, selfish, or greedy. Not good reasons for breeding.

Writing4Fun
September 8th, 2004, 08:46 PM
One thing no one has mentioned yet... what about the people who breed working dogs and only show at working competitions - like herding, hunting and such?
That would fall into the same category as "showing", wouldn't it? I mean, if you're breeding a working dog, then proving that it's the "best of the best" would mean putting it up against other working dogs and being judged by those standards, right?
For the pups that don't turn out as expected... it's like for any breeder - the ones that don't make the cut are found homes like any other dog... for a pure bred breeder those would be the non-show quality or pet quality pups that good breeders often sell for a lower price than a show quality dog.
I beg to differ. Maybe that's the way it works for "good" breeders (who I still believe are few and far between). But I would bet dollars to donuts that a BYB or miller will destroy the puppies that are born with "Labra" fur instead of "Doodle" fur, because they can't then sell them as "LabraDoodles" and charge a fortune for a "hypo-allergenic, non-shedding new breed".
Did anyone ever think that so many races of people were put on the same earth so that someday there was only one and that in doing so we would not only have learned to love and live with one another but BE one another. Why would it be so bizarre for that to happen to dogs, cats etc.?
OMG! :eek: I sure as heck hope it never comes to that, for us OR for our animals! Can you imagine a world where everyone was the same race, creed, colour, and held the same views on everything?? How interesting is this site now that we have folks of such diverse backgrounds from all over the world sharing their thoughts and opinions? How strange to have only one breed of dog to choose from?! No thanks! Give me diversity any day! I think we all learn a lot from one another this way! :D

goldenblaze
September 8th, 2004, 09:18 PM
I'd still like someone to answer the questions for me - how can a breeder be 100% certain that a cross-breed will contain the characteristics they're breeding for (i.e. hypoallergenic qualities or low-shedding)? And what happens to the pups that don't have those qualities? Maybe I should ask Paws R Us or Rainbow Park??


I am afraid to hear that answer- I wonder that myself because as you write about asking paws r us I think back and never heard any thing about these pups where they end upno mention of them at all. I am sure that paws r us do have many mixed breds as I learn more about them each day.

Writing4Fun I think you should email paws and ask that very question :D I would if I could but I believe I am the last person they want to hear from at this time. :confused:
Not sure about them answering any questions for me,
here is the email address :) charlene@pawsruskennel.com

Charlene is the mother she will answer your question, be nice now... ;) Let us no the answer ok.

LavenderRott
September 8th, 2004, 09:25 PM
A REALLY good breeder not only has conformation titles on their dogs but working titles also. They have room to take back puppies for whatever reason, and if they don't rescue dogs personally, they make sure to donate to the local rescue group.

And yes, I do know several in my breed that do exactly that.

goldenblaze
September 8th, 2004, 09:42 PM
They have room to take back puppies for whatever reason, and if they don't rescue dogs personally, they make sure to donate to the local rescue group.

Ok so tell me what happens to the dogs that people take back to the breeder :confused: Maybe I don't want to here your answer but I hope for the pups sake someone cares enough to find a good life time home. I could never take a dog back to the breeder, I believe till death do we part with my dogs.

LavenderRott
September 8th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Well, the breeder that I want to get a pup from has a list of people who want pet quality dogs from her. If the dog is a fit, she will offer it to one of them. If not, it is spayed/neutered and kept until a forever home can be found. Since she only breeds maybe one litter a year, it usually doesn't take long to find an older puppy a home. Or even an adult.

goldenblaze
September 8th, 2004, 10:21 PM
Well, the breeder that I want to get a pup from has a list of people who want pet quality dogs from her. If the dog is a fit, she will offer it to one of them. If not, it is spayed/neutered and kept until a forever home can be found. Since she only breeds maybe one litter a year, it usually doesn't take long to find an older puppy a home. Or even an adult.


Thanks, it is real nice to know the pups and adults do get a good home after all. I wish all breeders were the same.

MBRA518
September 9th, 2004, 09:41 AM
A REALLY good breeder not only has conformation titles on their dogs but working titles also.


Ok... that makes sense to me... thanks.

Also maybe you will know this - are rotties ever competed in herding? I know that's where the breed started many many years ago, I've never heard of Rotties doing this now, but I was surprised to find a bit of a herding instinct in my dog. She's always trying to herd my horses and it's not just chasing them around, she actually moves them where she wants them and doesn't bark at them much - and she follows at the rear when with me on a ride, in the heeling position. I was surprised when i figured out what she appears to be doing, I would has thought that instinct was breed out of the breed by now. My Rosie is a well breed pure breed, but came from a BYB who bought a few titled dogs... she isn't papered - so I've never been to a show, or know much about it.