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Proper age for pup to leave mom........

Xtream Dogs
September 6th, 2004, 02:52 AM
I was reading a post......lots of know it alls......about the proper age for a pup to leave its mother! :mad: I am a dog breeder, a lot of people seem to think that a pup should stay with its mom until 8 weeks.........I have to say that it DEPENDS on that mother!!! If the mom doesn't teach the pups anything, she growls at them, she is NOT doing the pups any good! I have found that if a puppy is kept beyond 7 weeks, in a big litter, the pups tend to learn to guard their food, I have also found that puppys kept past 7 weeks have a harder time adjusting to a "new" family. Personally I keep my pups until "they" are ready to go..........meaning they show independance, the mom is ready to let them go. They are at minimum 6 weeks for the larger breeds, and 8 for the smaller breeds.

LavenderRott
September 6th, 2004, 08:02 AM
So, what breed(s) of dogs do you raise?

LavenderRott
September 6th, 2004, 08:27 AM
Oh, I see you have linked to your home page.

Your web page says that you Breed for temperament and health, breed to meet standards, breed to IMPROVE the breed!! Later in your sight you say that you are hoping to put these dogs in a show ring this year. How do you know if these dogs meet the standard if they have never been in the ring? Isn't it a bit hard to tell if you are improving the breed if you have never had the parents judged against other dogs?

I see no where on the sight have you mentioned OFA certifications for heart, hips or elbows. These have been tested, right? Also, the site says that we can see your dogs pedigrees, but I don't see them anywhere. I do see a brief discription of the dog though.

Just out of curiosity, what part of Germany did your German dogs come from? I spent a couple of years over there and know a couple of breeders.

heeler's rock!
September 6th, 2004, 05:35 PM
I got my border at 8 weeks and 3 days and she is awesome. I train dogs for a living and I have seen way too many that are taken away before 8 weeks. If the mum leaves her pups at 6 weeks, so be it but I wouldn't place them into a home that early. Do you know how many pups that are taken too early bite, growl, and become agressive? I know too many owners that got pups too early and love them to death, but have to give them up because irresponsible breeders want to get rid of them. I'm not saying you are an irresponsible breeder, but do you talk to anybody that owns one of your pups that you took away at 6 weeks? It'd be interesting to see how many behavioural issues they have. If the mum CHOOSES to leave her pups, fine, but how can you tell that they are independent enough to leave her? She is teaching them so much by growling at them. she's teaching them to be respectful of other dogs and how to understand canine language. I would NEVER buy a dog from a breeder that thinks removing them from the mum at 6 weeks. I want a good dog, not a dog that will be put down at 3 years old for biting and being uncontrollable.....Maybe that's just the "know-it-all" in me coming out....... :mad:

heeler's rock!
September 6th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Funny....the most recent case I've seen of a puppy with MAJOR behavioural issues was a rottie...wonder if they got it from you.....I told them to find it another home because at 12 weeks, it was biting EVERYONE that tried to control it, it snarled, and started going balistic. Sure, most dogs act that way at first when it's being controlled, but this one didn't stop. I was working with it for 2 hours, and it didn't stop trying to tear me apart!!! :mad: I never tell people to get rid of their dog, but these people were so good and they didn't need to go through the pain of owning a dog that would eventually bite and draw blood on someone and be put down anyways. They got it when it was 6 weeks old.....

MBRA518
September 6th, 2004, 05:47 PM
Funny....the most recent case I've seen of a puppy with MAJOR behavioural issues was a rottie...wonder if they got it from you.....I told them to find it another home because at 12 weeks, it was biting EVERYONE that tried to control it, it snarled, and started going balistic. Sure, most dogs act that way at first when it's being controlled, but this one didn't stop. I was working with it for 2 hours, and it didn't stop trying to tear me apart!!! :mad: I never tell people to get rid of their dog, but these people were so good and they didn't need to go through the pain of owning a dog that would eventually bite and draw blood on someone and be put down anyways. They got it when it was 6 weeks old.....

I'm not meaning to be rude here but.... as a dog trainer why would you tell these people to rehome a dog you admit WILL bite someone? Why would you not advise them to have him PTS?

heeler's rock!
September 6th, 2004, 05:53 PM
I NEVER want to tell someone to re-home a dog. This dog was out of control and these were first time owners that didn't deserve to be duped the way they were. A more experienced owner would have been a better fit for this dog....I don't think they re-homed the dog and she is still with them last I heard....No worries, I didn't think you were rude...

heeler's rock!
September 6th, 2004, 05:59 PM
I actually shouldn't say that a more experienced owner would have been a better fit. I should have said that a more experienced owner might have been a better fit. Somewhere where the dog would have been handled by an experienced rottie owner. I'm not gonna tell someone that their dog should be put down or anything like that because I don't know 100% for sure that this dog will bite in the future, but it is an extremely educated guess. I hope that clarifies what I ment. It's hard not to be passionate when you're angry.....

SSAC
September 6th, 2004, 06:01 PM
xtream dogs..........nice approach....."know it alls". That's bound to go down well. :rolleyes:
I don't believe that this site is full of "know it alls". Just animal lovers that like to share their personal opinions and beliefs, as did you. Hhhhmmmm

I guess things change? but when I was first started in the "animal field", Good, responsible breeders were known to let ther dogs go at 10weeks, no younger. Then as time went on 8 became the min.

Like I said, I guess things change??????????? :confused: :mad:

My schnauzer and her siblings were removed from her mother by her breeder at 4wks, put in a seperate cage, as the breeder wanted to get the mother "ready" for breeding AGAIN. :mad:
Then she was seized in a puppy mill raid by the SPCA in NB :) , along with 30+ others. I fostered her and found seperation anxiety to be a huge issue amongst her many health problems. (yes I kept her). I know 4wks is different from 6wks, but personally I feel 6wks is too young....................Like I said PERSONALLY

goldenblaze
September 6th, 2004, 06:38 PM
I was just reading in my Golden Retriever's For Dummies book about this very subject :) This is what they say
" If a breeder lets the pup's go at 5 -6 weeks, say goodbye and leave" Some breeders keep all puppies till up to 10 weeks even.

So maybe people should just do that, bye bye. :)

Lucky Rescue
September 6th, 2004, 07:24 PM
I guess there are some "know-it-alls" making laws too, because in many places it's illegal to sell a puppy under 8 weeks old.

goldenblaze
September 6th, 2004, 09:14 PM
I guess there are some "know-it-alls" making laws too, because in many places it's illegal to sell a puppy under 8 weeks old.

I agree with you 100% :D
Eight weeks is young enough, puppies need to learn from mom and litters mates till at least 8 weeks

SSAC
September 7th, 2004, 11:20 PM
I was just reading in my Golden Retriever's For Dummies book about this very subject :) This is what they say
" If a breeder lets the pup's go at 5 -6 weeks, say goodbye and leave" Some breeders keep all puppies till up to 10 weeks even.

So maybe people should just do that, bye bye. :)

I love this goldenblaze! :D
spoken very well

goldenblaze
September 8th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Golden Retriever's For Dummies great book lots to read and I tell you I have read it cover to cover more times than I can count. I bought the book when we brought Blaze our Golden home in April and I am sure you can get them in alomost any bred. it is true never take the pup from Mommy till 8-10 weeks unless there is a reason that can not be controled. :)
Say bye and keep looking, many great breeders out there as I learned the hard way with Blaze and his breeder pawruskennel.com
I would never tell anyone to go there and buy a pup.

Cflat
September 8th, 2004, 08:00 PM
My guess would be that if the Mom is not responsive or becomes aggressive it is likely that she has been bred WAY TOO young.

I'm more inclined to say closer than to 10 weeks (between 8 - 10) 8 being the minimum.

MBRA518
September 8th, 2004, 08:06 PM
My guess would be that if the Mom is not responsive or becomes aggressive it is likely that she has been bred WAY TOO young.

I'm more inclined to say closer than to 10 weeks (between 8 - 10) 8 being the minimum.

I agree...

Also even if the mother is agressive (other than the obvious of don't breed her again and have her fixed!) I think the pups maybe should be taken from her, but still kept together as a litter to socialize. I think that puppies at the age of 6-10 weeks learn as much from their litter mates as the do from their mom.

trescanis
September 8th, 2004, 08:16 PM
I agree with what you are saying about pups in large litters and the food dilemma. Seen that happen.

I do disagree about the 6 week olds leaving the "nest". Between 6 and 8 weeks old is the optimum time for learning doggie behaviour with their own pack. The 7-14 days is an intense learning period for pups.

Xtream, why, in your opinion, is it okay for large breeds to go at 6 weeks, and not at 8?

Sending some http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/natur/nature-smiley-016.gif to you, I hear it's snowing out your way!

Spoiled
September 8th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Well Xtream Dogs, you havn't replied. Are you a scared know-it-all, or are you just not coming on again?

I agree, you're wrong. In the wild a mother would be with her pups longer than six weeks, so let it be with domestic dogs. Why are you trying to be so smart?

I agree with the "byby" method.

Byby! ;) :mad:

trescanis
September 8th, 2004, 08:38 PM
I don't understand the pissy attitude some have taken with Xtream!!! Is it because she breeds dogs?? This site is NOT a rescue site! (where breeders are never welcome)

This is someone who may be able to share some knowledge and information some may not have. Just as anyone else here...... Perhaps someone could tell me why the attitude?

Writing4Fun
September 8th, 2004, 08:53 PM
I believe the attitude comes from the resident experts being called "lots of know-it-alls" by someone who is new to the board (not a good way to introduce yourself and expect to make friends ;) ). Besides, this isn't a rescue issue - it's a rearing/training issue. I'm sure breeders are welcome, just not those with snotty remarks. :)

goldenblaze
September 8th, 2004, 09:01 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to be rude BUT ;) How many people have heard about a poor puppy leaving the mom too early and having problems later on in life. Come on the only reason a person would let the puppies go younger than 8-10 weeks is the person that should never of taken on this roll. Breeder should do anything they can to asure that puppy has the very best start in life and that does include caring for the pup until it is time to leave home. Never should the puppies be pushed away because take too much time or peepee too much :eek: This puppy deserves every chance that is really not alot to ask of breeders it is?

Goldenmom
September 8th, 2004, 09:24 PM
I don't understand the pissy attitude some have taken with Xtream!!! Is it because she breeds dogs?? This site is NOT a rescue site! (where breeders are never welcome)

This is someone who may be able to share some knowledge and information some may not have. Just as anyone else here...... Perhaps someone could tell me why the attitude?


I suspect the attitude originates from the remark she made right off the bat, first couple words, ever coming on this forum.

I quote "I was reading a post......lots of know it alls......"

This is what causes pissy attitudes in people that come here to offer their help and knowledge, not to be called this.

Not only that, she is absolutely, no doubt about it, WRONG. You do not take the pup from their mother any earlier than 8 weeks. I would not respect any breeder that does otherwise and like the rest I would say "bye bye"

JMO

LavenderRott
September 8th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Personally, I get pretty annoyed with BYB who breeds rottweilers. In these day and age, the last thing the breed needs is some know it all pumping out puppies. I have enough problems fighting BSL without someone like that passing off their pups as well bred onto the public. Puppies that leave their mothers too young have issues. Some of those issues can be pretty dramatic and lead to bites. Bites lead to headlines and headlines lead to BSL. Well, no thank you and STOP MESSING WITH MY BREED!!!

heeler's rock!
September 8th, 2004, 11:10 PM
Thank you, thank you everybody. As I said in my earlier posts, I have seen a rottie PUPPY try and tear me apart for 2 hours!!! All because I was trying to control it so that the owners may have a chance to rehabilitate this dog....why? because she was sold to them at 6 WEEKS OLD!! I'm not trying to be a "know it all" because I definitely do NOT know it all.....but I have seen first hand the damage that removing a pup from it's mum too early can do. I'm sure all those concerned about animal behavioural issues have seen or heard horror stories too. I'm also not against breeders at all. My border collie was from a breeder. A breeder that kept her with her mum and littermates for 8 weeks and 3 days and wouldn't let ANYONE even try to take them early. I'm just against irresponsible breeders that are not doing everything in their power to better their breed. Also, what is the need to breed 3 different types of dogs at once? I'm really just curious as breeding rotties, huskies, and poms seems a little much...I know breeders that breed the same breed for like 20 years consistantly, then try their hand at another breed they love...but I've never heard of 3 breeds being done at the same time by a reputible breeder. I'm really not trying to be rude, I am sincerely just curious.

LavenderRott
September 9th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Well, I am a bit concerned about anyone who claims to be breeding to better the breed but they have never stepped foot in a show ring. How in the world would you know if your dogs are the best if they have never been put in with the best by someone who knows what they are looking at? And I certainly hope that the "German" dogs were born in Germany and not just another way to get the uninformed to pay top dollar for a "good" dog. Since these are younger dogs, I doubt they are German because their tails are docked. Germany does not allow tail docking and hasn't for some time.

I guess I am just appalled when people who don't know what they are talking about (or do and try to sell you a line of bull) and then have the gall to claim they know more then dozens of other people.

heeler's rock!
September 9th, 2004, 12:11 AM
For the record, the breeders I was talking about are border collie breeders that do take their dogs to hearding trials as borders aren't recognized by the CKC. They do compete them against top herding dogs within the ABCA (Alberta Border Collie Association) :D

trescanis
September 9th, 2004, 02:32 AM
LavenderRott, Your statement " I doubt they are German because their tails are docked" means nothing. Huh? And it might come as a suprise to you, but they DO show dogs with docked tails in Germany!

As well, "I guess I am just appalled when people who don't know what they are talking about (or do and try to sell you a line of bull) and then have the gall to claim they know more then dozens of other people." My thoughts exactly.

Can someone provide me with the link that shows she was responding to someone's post about puppy's ages to leave the litter please?? I looked and cannot find it. I thought she was speaking about another forum?

Heelser'srock, etal, calm down. This board is strange in the way that SOME people seem to "feed" off others posts. Those people all of a sudden feel "powerful" and post a few quick posts.....Alot of legally slanderous posts have been bandied about. You should be more careful about calling people BYB's on a scripted message board.

Heelersrock, this "line" of yours " I was working with it for 2 hours, and it didn't stop trying to tear me apart!!! " HUH? WTF was happening? You obviously do NOT know dogs if you were working on a dog for 2 hours and it didn't stop trying to tear you apart!!! What the heck were you doing? Are you actually trained in some area with dogs???


I 100% agree about the conformation route. That is where ALL breeders should start, not attain to be. But, who knows what Xtream's start in the doggie world was...maybe she's come around to knowing that?

Anyway, what a rude bunch of posts. I got the same deal when I first posted here disagreeing with a top poster's post. I had to remind myself that there are only 10 or under constant posters here on this board.

heeler's rock!
September 9th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Easy trescanis...I never called anyone a BYB on this board. If you have no idea who I am or the training I do, what gives you the right to assume I know nothing? I was actually in the company of the man I took my dog training course through during this rottie's training session and he's been working with dogs of all breeds and sizes for 20 years. The situation was one of control. I was not letting the dog jump up, I was not letting it pull on the leash, and I was not letting do whatever the hell it wanted, and it didn't like that too much. So it growled, snarled, and tried to bite me repeatedly. That's WTF. He also worked with this dog and backed me up with what was going on. I'd appreciate it if you would ask questions before blatently being an ass.

As for my "momentum", well yeah. I am THRILLED that educated people on this board know the damage removing pups early can do. I know of a lot of breeders in Alberta, where Xtream is from too, that remove them too early and the result is the pup I worked with. I have it all on videotape to if you like. I can mail you a copy and you can see that I'm not stupid and I DO know something about dogs....jack ass....

mastifflover
September 9th, 2004, 10:29 AM
I don't think that you are talking to a respected and reputable breeder I think this person is a BYB. They are breeding 3 totally different dogs and most breeder that I know would not release a dog before 8 weeks and large and giant breeds 10 weeks. This is a key period for the pups to learn from their mother. Personally I keep my pups until "they" are ready to go..........meaning they show independance, the mom is ready to let them go. They are at minimum 6 weeks for the larger breeds, and 8 for the smaller breeds.
Biography:
I am a Canadian dog breeder, I have Rottweilers, Siberian Huskys and Pomeranians
This person professes to know so much about dogs does not really seem to be very well informed. I am sorry but to defend someone who does not have any confirmations or championships on there dogs is not a breeder you want a dog from, even if it just as a pet. Do they do health testing, what is the geneology, how many times do they breed a bitch? Since they havent come back I guess if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I am with you totally on this one Heelers Rock. I know you did not call them BYB but I think that is exactly what they are.

MBRA518
September 9th, 2004, 11:17 AM
I have a bit of a rant - not only related to this post, but it seems to fit here best...

I've seen a few people here talk about dogs being brought to shelters because they couldn't handle their agression... I don't understand that - a shelter can only make an aggressive dog worse, why not have the dog PTS? Being PTS is not tramatic or cruel to the dog - just the owners and there are so many dogs on petfinder (LR said 103,000 the other day) Why not step up and do the right thing rather than add to the problem. And yes I've been there, I had my 3 yr old mutt - from a BYB, he was taken from Mom at 5 weeks - he had never before shown agression beyond alarm barking before the incident and he attacked a young girl totally unprovoked... sorry but as much as I loved that dog - I had him PTS. Lord knows what will happen to an agressive dog dropped at a shelter, or the people who take him in if the shelter does not have him PTS.


thats my rant!

LavenderRott
September 9th, 2004, 01:23 PM
LavenderRott, Your statement " I doubt they are German because their tails are docked" means nothing. Huh? And it might come as a suprise to you, but they DO show dogs with docked tails in Germany!

Well, since the ADRK didn't change their standards until 2000, then I guess that older dogs in the ring would be competing with out a tail. Sorry, didn't know you had been to any German dog shows lately.

In most of Europe, tail docking and ear cropping for cosmetic reasons is now illegal.

CarlaD
September 9th, 2004, 01:37 PM
I know nothing of breeding and letting dogs leave their mom at a certain age. But I wanted to say that we got Willy when he was 12 weeks and Charlie when he was 10 weeks. (10 weeks is the minimum that he allows them to go) and even in that 2 week span, we noticed a ton of differences. I don't think that I could imagine a puppy at 6 weeks being let go. I am not saying it is right or wrong because again I don't know, but that is pretty young.

heeler's rock!
September 9th, 2004, 06:21 PM
You're right MBRA518. Taking an agressive dog to a shelter is definitely doesn't help the dog or the people adopting it. It's also hard to convince someone that loves this little puppy with everything they have, to havie it PTS...to them they still have a chance as long as it hasn't bitten someone. Some people need to learn the hard way....

I'd like to appologize to trescanis. I shouldn't have called you a jack ass but I was quite upset at your post.

Your quote: "I got the same deal when I first posted here disagreeing with a top poster's post. I had to remind myself that there are only 10 or under constant posters here on this board." Maybe people wouldn't be so rude if you weren't so rude to them. This board is good for listening to opinions that are written tastefully, not rudely..... :rolleyes:

If you have any questions about my training or about this rottie puppy I worked with, please feel free to PM me and I'll give you my number so we can debate this some more.

Mastiff, thanks for the support on this. I too found it odd that they feel the need to breed 3 different breeds at once. The first thing that actually came to my mind, but I didn't post it was early stage puppy mill....

heeler's rock!
September 9th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Thank you Cactusflower. I really appreciate that. I hope things are okay now between everyone here. I don't have any hard feelings towards anybody and I like debating issues, when they're done tastefully. This thread seemed to just start off bad....I think I'm gonna take a break from this one for a bit...trescanis, no harm done and no hard feelings on my end.

jenjen
September 9th, 2004, 07:00 PM
I don't know if cats are the same as dogs, but I was told by my vet and several other people that the earlier the babies leave the more behaviour problems they have. I kept my kittens for 12 weeks and then let them go.
Yes mom was fed up and I'm sure she would have been happy to see them go when they were on solid food. But even after that it was neat to waatch how much mom was still teaching them. The did everything she did and I must say that all of the kittens turned out wonderful. I have kept in touch with all of the owners (they are all good friends) and they do not have any complaints about the kittens. They are all well behaved, don't have problems using the litter boxes and are not the type of kittnes that bite and scratch.
It sounds like people get rid of the babies early so that MOM is ready for the next round. Kinda sick really. Good to know that all animals are good for is being breeding machines. Too bad all of my cats are fixed.HAHAHAHAHAHA

Lucky Rescue
September 9th, 2004, 07:22 PM
It sounds like people get rid of the babies early so that MOM is ready for the next round

Sure does sound that way, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

moontamara
September 9th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Anyone else annoyed by the fact that Xtreme Dogs started this thread and apparently hasn't even checked back to see the "kettle of fish" (for lack of a better expression!) s/he caused? When I first read the original post I cringed at the attitude expressed, knowing it could only cause trouble. What I didn't expect is that it would cause trouble between the regulars, while the original poster is probably off causing trouble on other forums! :rolleyes: Anyway, I think we're all friends (cyberfriends that is) here and it will all be fine. I just wanted to point out the fact that Xtreme Dogs is MIA.