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Pinch Collar

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Help me "use my words" as my Mum used to say...

Brody, who is 5 or 6 mths now, has a pinch collar as of yesterday. These people are my friends so I cannot in all good conscious ....kill them.

No, they have not started training yet though they promise they will soon.
Yes, Brody is puller but, he's a very energetic, rambunctious puppy. I've walked him, he does respond to some cues but again...he's a puppy and his attention span is 2 seconds and counting.:rolleyes:
Yes, Dad tried the pinch collar himself and doesn't feel it's a problem from a pain perspective.

I believe that in SOME, very limited circumstances a pinch collar may be a necessary aid where training has failed. I do not think this is or will be the case with Brody and I can't condone it with such a very young puppy. In fact, I saw Brody this morning with his Dad and he was still straining and lunging on the pinch collar in his eagerness to get to me and the grrrls.

He started on a harness. Based on the way his Dad corrects him when he pulls/lunges, I would rather not recommend a nose collar like a Newtrix.

So, please help me find the words to convince them this is a not a training tool at all and they should be using alternate means of restraining/ correcting Brody until Dad and Mom get some professional training.

I really don't want to have to kill them.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 12:27 PM
Wow. Interesting that you think a pinch collar is a necessary aid where training has failed.

A pinch collar is no less a training tool then a harness or a gentle leader. What you prefer to use is great for you but isn't everyone else's cup of tea.

A pinch collar is a great training tool for some people and some dogs.

aslan
May 7th, 2010, 12:28 PM
MMM,,,i have used a pinch/prong collar with both Bailey and Qman. In the right hands they are a useful training aid..In the wrong hands they can cause injury to the dog. The collar MUST sit high up on the neck ( almost right behind the ears)..anywhere else and you can hurt the dog.

I would suggest they take Brody to obedience class, or atleast have a professional trainer teach them how to use the collar. They can use a halti or a gentle leader harness.

BenMax
May 7th, 2010, 12:47 PM
Aslan is correct. Tell them better safe than sorry. The collar is only effective if used correctly. Also, as Lavenerott mentions, it works for some dogs but not all.

A good trainer will find the right tools and methods to help both owner and dog.

Winston
May 7th, 2010, 01:12 PM
I have to say that I agree with the fact the it MUST be used in the right hands.

Having said that I have used a pinch collar on Winston since he was 1 yr old. He will be 11 in November. I use this as my tool because without it he would never be walked..!! We started out like everyone else and slowly graduated from the regular collar, then the halty, then the choke chain and finally a pinch collar.

I cannot walk him without it plain and simple and that is because of his strength and size. He can pull me down the street if I didnt use it.

Again it MUST be used correctly.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 02:10 PM
A pinch collar is no less a training tool then a harness or a gentle leader. What you prefer to use is great for you but isn't everyone else's cup of tea.

A pinch collar is a great training tool for some people and some dogs.

In my mind a "tool" in dog training terms is something that helps one learn and from which one graduates to a less physically dominating means of restraint. Or not in the case of some dogs and some people. But, for a very young puppy who weighs 30 pounds soaking wet, I think the use of a pinch collar is not a tool for learning, it's a lazy wo/man's method of domination and restraint. LavenderRott, I respect your opinion a great deal ~ is a pinch collar really something you would recommend (albeit sight unseen) here?

I would suggest they take Brody to obedience class, or atleast have a professional trainer teach them how to use the collar. They can use a halti or a gentle leader harness.

I guess I was too subtle. I probably will continue to be just in case they ever tap into you ~ "my source". :D

I suggested the harness over a nose collar, to which I am not opposed having used them successfully as a learning tool with my grrrls, because of the way they corrected him with a neck collar. I've now seen the same kind of correction with the pinch collar. I know a pinch collar can be used responsibly and are sometimes necessary but, there is no way I can condone this a/ in a small puppy and with 2/ Mom and Dad's skill level.

And Winston ~ I totally get ya on the being pulled off my feet part. It was torn rotator cuffs and broken pinkies that "inspired" me to get the grrrls nose collars. And it was my 115 lbs walking my 300 pounds of dog which reminded me that training training training is indispensable and (for me) get thee back to the behaviourist/trainer.

MyBirdIsEvil
May 7th, 2010, 02:36 PM
Using a pinch collar on a 30 lb puppy is a bit lazy. What is their reasoning for this? The pup is young and still learning and they're trying to rush him into obeying through physical aids rather than training it sounds like. A prong collar means nothing without being combined with training anyway. I've seen lots of dogs that will pull just as hard on them as a normal collar when the owner has relied on the collar to be the trainer rather than actually putting effort into training themselves.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Using a pinch collar on a 30 lb puppy is a bit lazy. What is their reasoning for this? The pup is young and still learning and they're trying to rush him into obeying through physical aids rather than training it sounds like. A prong collar means nothing without being combined with training anyway. I've seen lots of dogs that will pull just as hard on them as a normal collar when the owner has relied on the collar to be the trainer rather than actually putting effort into training themselves.

I agree MBIE , thanks.

In this circumstance, I think it's into "cruel and unnecessary" territory. Their reasoning is that he pulls ~ just that. But neither he nor they have training. And he's a BABY.

I get the feeling they think he should be like what they see in my grrrls and all the other very grown up dawgs in our park, ~ and believe me here, they only seeeeeem like they are attentive and trained that is until they figure out who you are and what you can feed them :D . My dogs are also almost eleven and trying to convince M&D that a 5 mth old puppy simply doesn't have the social/ emotional "brain power" to suss out what we as guardians want or need may be possible but isn't likely.

And, hard as this may be to admit, they may not view dogs in the same way I do.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't recommend any collar to any dog sight unseen. But I really get tired of people bashing different training methods/tools. There is a time to every purpose.....

In this case, while I would recommend a good training class for sure - I would probably take a few minutes to teach the owner how to properly use the collar so that at least the dog wasn't getting jerked around.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 03:59 PM
In this case, while I would recommend a good training class for sure - I would probably take a few minutes to teach the owner how to properly use the collar so that at least the dog wasn't getting jerked around.

... for a 5/ 6 month old 30 lb, 5 mth old puppy when parents are big people?

Really??

Wow.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 04:09 PM
... for a 5/ 6 month old 30 lb, 5 mth old puppy when parents are big people?

Really??

Wow.

The fact is - they are going to use this collar whether you like it or not. At least if it is on the dog correctly, the dog won't get hurt. That doesn't mean I would recommend it.

cassiek
May 7th, 2010, 04:36 PM
IMO, I think the pup is far too young at this stage for a pinch collar - I would suggest they enroll in obedience classes to start. I think there are other alternatives better suited for the age of this pup at the current moment. If they really insist, could they maybe try a martingale instead?

As LavenderRott said though, they may go ahead with it anyways, if they do probably the best course of action is to at least show them how to use it probably so they don't end up hurting the pup. When used correctly, a pinch collar can be a very safe and effective tool.

I used one regularly on Brynn while we were in obedience classing and during training (and sometimes still while I am riding my bike with her), but very rarely do I use it walking anymore. I used it as a tool to reach our goal (walking nice) and now just walk her with a regular flat collar. When I did use a pinch collar on her though it was when I first adopted her and she was 50 lbs heavy and 2 years old.

aslan
May 7th, 2010, 04:48 PM
MMM,,,I agree with LR,,if they are bound and determined to use the collar atleast they should know how to use it. Our Bailey is a little demon to walk until the prong,,you don't yank, tug, pull with it,,let it correct itself..Bailey will walk perfectly with it on,,take it off another story..Quincy on the other hand we had to switch the the gentle leader harness due to his strength and how thick his ruff is ( oh and how obsessed he is with mommy G).

A halti just like any training aid as that is exactly what they are..doesn't work for every dog,didn't for any of mine. Lol,,give me their number i 'll tell them to take him to school.:evil:

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 04:58 PM
I think we are parting ways on this issue. We clearly do not share the same non-violent ways of being.

Oh well.

aslan
May 7th, 2010, 05:03 PM
they aren't willing to take Brody to a trainer? That is sad as the vet bill they may end up with if the collar isn't used right will probably cost more than a trainer.:(

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 05:11 PM
Aslan ~ to me a pinch/prong collar is a sign of failure.
A failure to communicate.
Mine. Not the dogs.
They communicate as well as they are able, it is me who is not always able to hear.

cassiek
May 7th, 2010, 05:15 PM
MMM, are they willing to try out some puppy obedience classes for a start? I am not against pinch or prong collars, but really think they should not be used as a first resort. I think there are much better alternatives they should try first. Is there any obedience classes in your area starting up soon that they could enroll in?

aslan
May 7th, 2010, 05:18 PM
Aslan ~ to me a pinch/prong collar is a sign of failure.
A failure to communicate.
Mine. Not the dogs.
They communicate as well as they are able, it is me who is not always able to hear.


see i disagree,,i don't think its a sign of failure..on these peoples part i see it as a sign of lazyness and want of a quick fix.

I would never do anything to hurt my dogs and i have used a pinch,,,but i also have been taught how to use it properly. I also hadn't seen the harness i have now for qman,,it was LP who showed me it in montreal.

TeriM
May 7th, 2010, 05:20 PM
Gonna throw my two cents in here.

I don't think pinch collars are the evil device that people assume when the see them. I do think there is a potential for misuse and in this case I would definately recommend that they purchase the pinch collar like this one (I know they have one already but ..) http://www.allk-9.com/collars-prong-collar-c-17_20.html?zenid=0871eb6cfca3fdfd434d742da5acae35. That type of prong does not have the choke portion on it so in fact is much gentler and less prone to misuse. The collar should be fit snugly up above the regular flat collar. That combined with having the owner stop forward motion when the dog pulls (so dog cannot self reward) will likely be enough to have them walking semi-peaceful.

I firmly believe that fearful dogs should not be prong users as the potential for them to make bad associations is huge.

Having the puppy pull on a regular collar can also be very damaging to growing neck/throat areas so keeping the status quo is not a good thing either. Halti can be good if the dog will accept it (Riley won't) but I would also worry about that with a pup as pulling his head around could also be very damaging especially if the owner pulled the wrong way when the dog was moving forward. I used a halti on my mom's dog for a while but stopped because he would take huge leaps up/forward with the halti which caused his head to whip around which I found very unsafe. I have used the halti with Lucy to keep her from wanting to eat little dogs (arghh) and she was totally fine and it worked well in that situation,

cassiek
May 7th, 2010, 05:20 PM
If anything, they may want to enroll in obedience classes to learn from a qualified trainer how to use is properly. Not all obedience classes with allow the use of a pinch collar, but some will if you ask. In this situation it is defiantly best if they at least are supervised with their pup while they use it so they can learn how to use it correctly.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 06:34 PM
I have to say...I'm shocked by this response.

luckypenny
May 7th, 2010, 07:06 PM
These people are my friends so I cannot in all good conscious ....kill them.

Would your conscious get in the way if someone else did?

J/k :o.

I know you can't take their hands and walk them to classes but, how about printing out a schedule and registration form for them (or email)? Or suggest that they sit in on a class so they can experience some modeling (maybe offer to go with them?). Often ppl don't appreciate how helpful something could be unless they see it for themselves. They can likely not realize there are alternatives because they've never witnessed any.

Goldfields
May 7th, 2010, 07:53 PM
Just curious about something. Does anyone train their dogs using food? My sister has remarkably good results doing that. No Halti, no prong collar, and her correction collars may as well be a necklace for all they are ever used in the old jerk and tug way of training. Her dogs are happy workers in the trial ring or when tracking, I suppose because it's so gentle. Please don't jump on me if you don't like the idea, I don't use it myself but then I've only had one cattle dog that forged on a correction collar, but she was super hyper and had to be obedience trained just so she was safe to be around. Forging wasn't her only bad habit.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 07:59 PM
I think we are parting ways on this issue. We clearly do not share the same non-violent ways of being.

Oh well.

A prong/pinch collar, when used properly is less violent then most training collars.

Aslan ~ to me a pinch/prong collar is a sign of failure.
A failure to communicate.
Mine. Not the dogs.
They communicate as well as they are able, it is me who is not always able to hear.

Every dog is different and different collars work better for different dogs. It certainly isn't a sign of anyone's failure. Personally - I think it is a much greater failure on the part of an owner/handler to disregard any humane method of training because they don't understand it or agree with it and instead continue to frustrate themselves and their dog by using methods that don't work.

DoubleRR
May 7th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Must say I agree with LavenderRott--a prong collar properly fitted and used is much more gentle on the neck than a choke chain or even a regular collar--both of which do much damage to trachea when dogs pull hard, and owners pull back in an effort to keep them under control.

The prong, or pinch collar can only close to the proper fit--not choke, and feels like a lot of hard fingers grabbing the neck to stop forward movement rather than a collar cutting off air. I have worn all training collars around my own neck--not just my arm or leg--so I know what message they send to the dog. A gentle soul of a dog needs only a martingale collar--each individual dog needs what works with it. I successfully trained many dogs with no neck damage with the old style choke chains--used correctly. All equipment is good in the right hands and bad in the wrong. Particularly automobiles--o wait that is another thread.:offtopic:

Although we would all like the ability, we cannot decide who gets to own animals or how they train them. So, we try and help them not hurt their pets.:dog:
Yes, Goldfields I use food to train the basics, but there are times in the life of dogs that food runs out, or is is faded out and replaced by praise..and then that feral cat or crazy rabbit or whathaveyou runs out in front of your leashed doggy....or those wild dogs from down the block come tearing out...etc.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 09:37 PM
A five month old puppy LP? I just don't want this incredibly bright, sweet little guy get yanked in circles bigger than I until he is brain-dead to humans.

LavenderRott ~ relationship control or complete obeiance? One or the other, I choose relationship control. My dawgs and I have a deal about behaviour and our co-existence and it rarely demands complete domination. I'm not so much interested in whether they heel as whether they know to lie down in the face of a tractor. And I know you are on the page with that.

We can say there's no diff between a collar and a prong collar but there's a huge difference in philosophy. There's a HUGE difference in perspective on training. I use a halter / collar/ bit to control when needed.

Goldfields ~ where food/ treats are a good match, useful and handy ~ I use them without hesitation. It's a primitive reward and one I and my dawgs like and is an obvious payback to the trained and the trainer. Dad "doesn'r believe in them".

As we are dealing with a very young puppy, a small puppy at that, in my mind it's a failure to communicate on the humans part and Brody should not be punished with a prong / pinch collar because of our failure to understand and value his interests and needs.

Winston
May 7th, 2010, 09:51 PM
MUM3 I dont think this is really true. If not used correctly perhaps. But I MOST DEFINATELY have full control of my happy dog who is never hurt by it at all and he knows his boundries when it comes to pulling. I dont feel like a failure.

Aslan ~ to me a pinch/prong collar is a sign of failure.
A failure to communicate.
Mine. Not the dogs.
They communicate as well as they are able, it is me who is not always able to hear.

Just a good ole puppy class would be helpful in teaching manners, socialization and all that fun stuff.

mummummum
May 7th, 2010, 09:54 PM
Winston, please bear in mind we are not talking about your big brute.

We are talking about a small, very young and rambunctious puppy.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 10:02 PM
You really do have your mind locked into this whole "prong collars hurt" thing, don't you? I have seen dogs strangle themselves at the end of a leash wearing a simple web buckle collar yet self correct on a prong collar. After a couple weeks of training with a prong, the buckle collar was put back on the dog and the improvement was huge.

I have a 100 pound, 9 month old puppy. I can tell you right now that for walking and training - a prong collar is what he wears. And I can tell you right now that I most certainly don't get complete obedience. My dog obeys me (to the best of his ability as a 9 month old puppy) because I ask him to. And it is done in a manner that is safe for him, me and anyone around us.

The whole point of a prong collar is you don't yank your dog in circles until it is brain dead. The slight pinch that a properly fit collar gives reminds the dog that it needs to pay attention without your having to worry about your dog being hurt.

Winston
May 7th, 2010, 10:09 PM
Oh I am so sorry I was just commenting in general and not thinking a pupper! :thumbs up I guess I should read more carefully....

luckypenny
May 7th, 2010, 10:10 PM
A five month old puppy LP? I just don't want this incredibly bright, sweet little guy get yanked in circles bigger than I until he is brain-dead to humans.

I'm not suggesting traditional training classes. There are puppy socialization classes that offer to educate guardians in a fun and safe environment. If you, or Brody's owner's call around, ask if any centers follow Dr. Jennifer Messer's Kinderpuppy curriculum, or something very similar. An excellent class will address socialization (making careful consideration of age and breed differences), acquired bite inhibition, and resource guarding and behavior problem prevention. Just as important, it should also include education in normal puppy/dog behaviors so that guardians learn to have realistic expectations. Marker/reward based training is also introduced to teach basics such as come, sit, etc.

MyBirdIsEvil
May 7th, 2010, 10:13 PM
I can see both sides. I've used a prong before, but as I got much better at understanding dogs I found they don't really have a purpose for me. I haven't used them on any dog for years and haven't felt I needed to. I don't personally think they're dangerous or even painful in the right hands but I don't think they're necessary in the majority of cases.
I do like the head halters, mainly with young dogs that tend to try and choke themselves and may hurt their throats. I won't use them on a dog that lunges. I don't even use them all the time.
I haven't used anything but a flat collar, a harness or a head halter for a long time. The last time I used a harness was for Bheka because she was a bit apprehensive as baby and would lag behind us, and while I was trying to get her used to wearing the head halter. I found the harness was good for encouraging her to go foward because the pull of a collar would make her want to pull backward even more. She left that apprehensive stage behind pretty quick so I stopped using the harness before she even outgrew it.

I really do think a prong is not necessary in this case and for most people. I think these people will probably find their dog doesn't do any better with a prong collar than with a flat collar. I don't think of a prong collar as an anti-pull device as some people seem to, I think of it as a way to get a dogs attention during training when other methods fail. I do know people that just use it as their go-to training collar, and it can be just fine for the run of the mill dog as long as strong corrections aren't used, but I don't see why people use it for that purpose other than it's just the collar they're used to using :shrug:.

With these people, I say teach them to use the prong. It's not going to hurt the dog if they use it correctly, it's just not going to help them any if they refuse to put the effort into training. I'm sure they'll soon move onto another device when they realize this one isn't a fix-it-all without the addition of training. Maybe while you're teaching them to use the prong collar you can show them some training tips and perhaps they'll start to listen. Criticizing people doesn't usually get them to do what you want, but being cooperative and making things fun for them can work wonders. The prong is not the major problem, rather the people themselves, so I would try to work with them as much as possible and make training as interesting for them as possible. Maybe once they realize training can be fun for them and the dog and make things much easier they will catch on. Plus someone needs to remind them to be PATIENT, because most puppies take forever to learn and obey.

Just curious about something. Does anyone train their dogs using food?

I use food to reward when I'm first teaching commands. I also use the dogs regular feeding time as a time to teach commands. For instance they must sit or lay down before getting their bowl.
I don't use food with anti-pull training. For that, and a lot of other training I use similar methods to if you were training a horse. The dog tries to pull I make them stop, turn and sit. Don't continue walking until they don't pull.
I also use play a lot for training. They sit before I throw a ball or they get a toy they like, etc.. I find this to be quicker learned and less tedious for the dog than actual run of the mill repetition training. I try to stay away from actual training "sessions" because not only do the dogs bet bored, but so do I. Really I'm very laid back and I let my dogs progress at their pace, and I try to make training fun and interesting for them :). Mainly I think this is because I tend to go for the high energy or high intelligence working type dogs that get bored easily with doing the same thing over and over again.
Right now, of course, I have 3 puppies, one of them only several weeks old, so none of my dogs appear that well trained :laughing:. They all know sit, and the 2 new dogs starting to learn lay down and other commands, but their attention span is like non existent right now.

Goldfields
May 7th, 2010, 10:24 PM
LavenderRott, you wrote

The slight pinch that a properly fit collar gives reminds the dog that it needs to pay attention without your having to worry about your dog being hurt.

I just think that food makes them pay attention too. My sister's pup is 5 months old and already walks on a loose lead, can do sits, it comes and sits in front, it drops from a sit, stands from both the sit and the drop etc.. Admittedly Barb has had lots of experience and everything she does is with an obedience career in mind for her pup, but I never trained her way and am impressed, I think my next cattle dog will be trained that way. My first ever purebred ACD was a daughter to the fiist Obedience Ch. for the breed in this country and she was also trained with food, gaining her AOC title, and having had 2 litters along the way, by the time she was 5. Incidentally, the temperament of this pup my sister is training is so different to what she is used to that she is going to teach it more advanced exercises before the basic ones. I assume she knows what she is doing. LOL.

LavenderRott
May 7th, 2010, 10:32 PM
LavenderRott, you wrote

The slight pinch that a properly fit collar gives reminds the dog that it needs to pay attention without your having to worry about your dog being hurt.

I just think that food makes them pay attention too. My sister's pup is 5 months old and already walks on a loose lead, can do sits, it comes and sits in front, it drops from a sit, stands from both the sit and the drop etc.. Admittedly Barb has had lots of experience and everything she does is with an obedience career in mind for her pup, but I never trained her way and am impressed, I think my next cattle dog will be trained that way. My first ever purebred ACD was a daughter to the fiist Obedience Ch. for the breed in this country and she was also trained with food, gaining her AOC title, and having had 2 litters along the way, by the time she was 5. Incidentally, the temperament of this pup my sister is training is so different to what she is used to that she is going to teach it more advanced exercises before the basic ones. I assume she knows what she is doing. LOL.

I also said that the collar on the dog depends on the dog.

Treat training also depends on the dog. You can't treat train a dog that is SO food motivated that their focus is on the food and not on you.

14+kitties
May 7th, 2010, 10:51 PM
So, please help me find the words to convince them this is a not a training tool at all and they should be using alternate means of restraining/ correcting Brody until Dad and Mom get some professional training.

I really don't want to have to kill them.

MMM, maybe I am being very simplistic here but seeing as you want to try to educate them on the best collar to use for them and their method of "training" their small pup, could you print out articles on the pros and cons for several different collars. Then you could take them the articles, sit down over a hot coffee, or whatever, and have an intelligent conversation with them. You don't have to stress what collar you think would do the job. Let them reach their own decision. Sometimes it just works better that way. :shrug:

luckypenny
May 7th, 2010, 10:55 PM
Marker based/positive reward training isn't being applied properly if a dog's focus is only on food (what's treat-training anyways :shrug:). Appropriate reinforcement schedules have to be considered in order for this type of training to be successful. Here's some information on what does, and doesn't, work...and why. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/reinforcement-schedules

Rewards are used to teach a desired behavior. Once the behavior is learned, rewards are weaned and only offered sporadically to proof the behavior.

I think, for me anyways, this type of training allows for some mistakes without major consequences. I'm not confident human errors made with other training devices such as a choker, prong collar, halti etc. will have the same end result.

MyBirdIsEvil
May 7th, 2010, 11:09 PM
You can't treat train a dog that is SO food motivated that their focus is on the food and not on you.

I'm not sure what you're saying has much to do with how food obsessed the dog is. I've seen a lot of dogs that were majorly food motivated and performed at very high levels. It depends on how the treats are given and incorporated into training. The dog should be motivated to receive the food, not focused on where the food is, and that has little to do with how food obsessed they are and more to do with how to food is being incorporated into their training.
The article luckypenny posted is a good example of how food can be misused.

The only trouble I've had with food treats is with dogs that don't care much about food. In that case you need to find other motivators.

Goldfields
May 7th, 2010, 11:09 PM
I also said that the collar on the dog depends on the dog.

Treat training also depends on the dog. You can't treat train a dog that is SO food motivated that their focus is on the food and not on you.

I think I made an OOPS!. Barb has trained her current dogs, (all titled) with food, however I think she's having to train this latest pup with praise only. Like my first home bred Ch ACD, this pup isn't interested in food. Makes it a challenge for her.I just recalled telling Barb how at an agricultural show someone had come running over from a horse truck to ask if my dog would like a piece of leftover pie. I just looked at her blank and said no. LOL. She couldn't believe that Shady wouldn't accept it so I told her to try, and no, she didn't want it. It was hard not being able to bait her in the showring.
Anyway, much as there are those that don't like treats, I understand, sort of, the idea that some might focus on it, although I've never had that happen. Ours always watch our faces, in fact I got too much focus from my red ACD boy because when gaiting in the ring he started that habit of head up, slightly turned,watching me. I always though it looked great in an obedience dog, but truly cursed it when it spoilt the outline of my show dog. :frustrated:

MyBirdIsEvil
May 7th, 2010, 11:15 PM
Like my first home bred Ch ACD, this pup isn't interested in food.

Walnut was like that. When I offered treats she was just like "Meh, what does that have to do with anything?"
She was extremely intelligent though and liked knowing she was doing something right. Food wasn't necessary. I taught her to spin by doing it myself and saying the word and she copied me :shrug:. She did stuff because she liked learning new things and getting attention from people for it.

Though, I'm sure she would have performed for m&ms :laughing:. She used to let them roll around in her mouth and melt. She savored them, it was not dog-like at all. She did really like pears too, but I never used them for training. Too messy cuz of the juice.

Goldfields
May 7th, 2010, 11:24 PM
Oh, you didn't fancy a pocket full of oozing pear pieces? :laughing: I guess you'd understand my sister's pup. Hopefully it might be as smart as yours was. (she would wish.)

I have a visitor who bought me plants for my garden, so I'd best go talk to him and not be rude. Cya.

growler~GateKeeper
May 9th, 2010, 02:51 AM
He started on a harness. Based on the way his Dad corrects him when he pulls/lunges, I would rather not recommend a nose collar like a Newtrix.

Since he is already used to wearing a body harness have you/they looked at the Sense-ation Harness (http://www.softouchconcepts.com/products/sense_ation_harness.php) or the Easy Walk Harness (http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/collars/easywalk/description)? Instead of a traditional back/shoulder blade leash clip these two have the leash clip in the front of the chest producing a similar effect as the head collars - minimal/no pulling, redirection back & towards the handler.

Chaser
May 9th, 2010, 08:22 AM
Since he is already used to wearing a body harness have you/they looked at the Sense-ation Harness (http://www.softouchconcepts.com/products/sense_ation_harness.php) or the Easy Walk Harness (http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/collars/easywalk/description)? Instead of a traditional back/shoulder blade leash clip these two have the leash clip in the front of the chest producing a similar effect as the head collars - minimal/no pulling, redirection back & towards the handler.

MMM - I am with you 100% on this. I don't believe in anything but a harness or a head halter for a puppy, and pinch collars should only be used by people who have been properly educated in their use.

My next suggestion would be a Halti, but if you're thinking that it would result in harsh corrections that is clearly still not safe for puppy.

Although I have had most success with Haltis on my two, there was a period of time when it was rubbing Chase's nose quite a bit and I thought he needed a break from it. I used the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness, mentioned by growler above, and it was excellent! :thumbs up IMO, it would be the best suggestion in this case. I had amazing control with it.

mummummum
May 10th, 2010, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the advice and opinions ~ all are valued.

I'll keep at them on getting him (them actually :D) into a suitable class ~ thanks for the link! ~ and look into those harnesses for him. And yes, we will have this discussion over coffee.

LP ~ if I want a job done right I do it myself. :p So, depending on their response the coffee may be laced with Brandy or :eek: