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Are you Vegetarian,Vegan or Meat Eater?

September 1st, 2004, 09:57 PM
I've been talking to a few members on the board and found out some of you guys are vegetarians?

While browsing the forums i came across this little line posted by Luba "oHhhhhhhh so I ate steak huh (well thats funny I usually never eat red meat so there HAHA)"

Personaly i've been a vegetarian for 21 years!!
how about you guys? Are you Vegetarian,Vegan or *Juicy Steak yum yum*

With all the problems with red meat these day's i wonder if more people are turning towards a healthy vegetarian diet?

September 1st, 2004, 10:22 PM
Ooohh! I hate it when IE crashes in the middle of posting a reply! :mad:

So, Knight, vegetarian for 21 years?? WOW! You started young! :p

Sorry to disappoint all the "enlightened" folks on this board. I am very much a meat eater, but for the past few years I've been having more chicken than beef. Although being of Italian heritage, my diet contains A LOT of pasta. :rolleyes: Does that redeem me a bit?? I haven't met many vegetables that tickled my fancy, although my kids just LOVE 'em (wonder where that dormant gene has been hiding all these years?). :D

Curious - what's the difference between vegetarians and vegans? :confused:

September 1st, 2004, 10:43 PM
So, Knight, vegetarian for 21 years?? WOW! You started young! :p

Yeah i did LOL..but i did not decide or was told i should be i just stop eating meat and my mum had too always make an extra dish just for me!

Curious - what's the difference between vegetarians and vegans? :confused:

Shame on you lol Just Kidding :)..
Vegetarian = Consisting primarily or wholly of vegetables and vegetable products: a vegetarian diet.

Vegan = A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals.

Vegan/Vegetarian: What’s the Difference? And what are all these different types of Vegetarianism?

Well, there can be differing opinions but for the most part, most veg*ns will use these descriptions:

Vegan - Someone who consumes no meat or other animal products (dairy and eggs as well as honey) as food and who doesn't use products that contain animal products (e.g. leather, fur, animal products in things like shampoo, etc.) and who does so because of ethical reasons (i.e. not wanting to impose their will on or to harm other sentient creatures).

Strict vegetarian - Someone who does not eat meat and who consumes no other animal products as food (including dairy and eggs) but still may use animal products such as leather, fur, animal products in shampoo, etc.).

Lacto-vegetarian - Someone who does not eat meat and eggs, but consumes dairy products and who may still use animal products such as leather, fur, etc.

Ovo-vegetarian - Someone who does not eat meat or dairy, but consumes eggs and who may still use animal products such as leather, fur, etc.

Lacto-ovo-vegetarian - Someone who does not eat meat, but who eats dairy and eggs and who may still use animal products such as leather, fur, etc.

There are many variations of the above descriptions as well. Someone might be lacto-ovo-vegetarian and still choose to not wear leather or use animal free products. They are not hard and fast “rules” so much as a way of efficiently describing one’s vegetarian diet. The one thing that all vegetarians have in common is that they don't eat meat. Other differences come from whether or not they eat eggs or dairy or use animal products that don't involve food. Differences also come from people's reasons for being vegetarian. Some do it for the animals others for health reasons. Regardless of the reasons, the common thread is that they don't eat critters.

here's a cool site :)

September 1st, 2004, 10:56 PM
I like to call myself a "guilt ridden meat eater". I eat meat, then think about where it came from and feel guilty. I tried the vegetarian thing and really sometimes I go days without eating meat, but I am so picky about veggies I don't think I could subsist on them alone. It's very hard to stick to a non-meat diet surrounded by ex-farmers as well, they have a whole different view on animals, domestic and otherwise. :( There may be hope for me yet though, as I have discovered recently that I really can't tell the difference between the veggie burger and the now I order the veggie. :o

September 1st, 2004, 11:05 PM
Yeah i did LOL..but i did not decide or was told i should be i just stop eating meat and my mum had too always make an extra dish just for me!
LOL Knight, you sound more and more like my hubby every day! He, too, decided one day as a child that he's had about enough of this. He's not vegetarian, but he can't stand eating meat that looks like meat (??). So he'll eat only boneless, skinless chicken breasts (no chicken on the bone for him!), NO beef or pork or lamb or anything else whatsoever, he'll have the occasional hot dog (don't think that counts as meat anyway) and some pepperoni on his pizza. Makes for interesting dinners at our house!! :rolleyes:

September 1st, 2004, 11:13 PM
well this may just be a hot topic. all opinions given here are mine and mine alone, do not take it personally, dont get cranky just accept a diff view, i do not judge anyone for their meat consumption.

firstly do you eat any form of flesh ironknight, that is fish etc?? just wondering. you may have noticed that many claim to be vegetarian but still eat flesh products, to me that doesnt count.

now before i go on let me say this, studies and observations have shown a significant difference btw the smell of fecies and fart of flesh eaters and non, the flesh consumers farts and fecies smell alot worse than vego. this to me indicates that the process of meat consumption in large amts like todays society (lg meaning more than 3times week) is not conducive to healthy bowels.there is a million scientifically proven health reasons to support this practice.

there are huge varieties in vegetarianism, you have your lacto/ovarian (dairy/egg) veges, you lactos or ovos, and then your pure hearts which is really veganism if you ask me.
i am a lacto vegetarian, that is i consume milk and dairy products, i do not eat eggs (ovarian). i have been a vegetartian since i was a small child and am now into my 18th year of flesh free living. i have not suffered any physical aliments or disease due to my diet.
my reason for being lacto, growing up in the dairy industry i saw plenty of cows get udder disease from not being milked properly. it is horrid and painful for the cow, if you do not milk it, it will die, so i do not see a mortal sin with consuming these products. i do however PERSONALLY see a mortal sin in the consumption of flesh and have a hard time understanding the practice.

there is a world of vegetables and products out there that make a modern vegetarian diet very tasty indeed, and there is a world of cook books and recepies around these days so a vegetarian diet is not what it was when i was a kid.

did you know that meat is the highest water and land consumer of all products grown in the world. it costs 10,000Litres of water to raise a kilo of beef, it takes 2000Litres of water to grow a kilo of legumes. soil compaction, soil degredation, loss of soil due to erosion around water sources, methane production, and many more environmental problems surround meat production. not to mention high cost (such as fencing, security etc) (but high return if lucky) to the farmer.

the only prob i have being a vegetarian is this-
there is no instructions on meat you buy in the supermarket, in this day and age with so many different ppl and religions i find it insulting that it is assumed i know how to cook meat, yes i know how to cook most but some i have trouble with. there is no instruction on aussie meat for cooking and i always have to stop old ladies to see what i do (they are always sweet and very helpful).

September 1st, 2004, 11:14 PM
:p ;) :D ;) :p :) :) :) :)
There! This is how happy I am to be vegan. If anyone else needs convincing to become vegan visit meet your meet at

September 1st, 2004, 11:19 PM
I too am a GRME :o I was a veggie for 13yrs. Started to eat fish and Chicken for health reasons (protein sups didn't work for me).
Then went to only eating chicken and fish if we went out to eat :o

Became pregnant last year, repulsed at the sight of chicken, but craved peppercorn steak :D Now I eat steak, fish and chicken. One of them, once aweek and yes I do feel guilty!

September 1st, 2004, 11:20 PM
firstly do you eat any form of flesh ironknight, that is fish etc?? just wondering. you may have noticed that many claim to be vegetarian but still eat flesh products, to me that doesnt count.

yup i dont eat fish.. in my view it's just the same as eating regular red meat!

i am a lacto vegetarian, that is i consume milk and dairy products, i do not eat eggs (ovarian).

OMG lol we're the SAME!! i dont drink milk but i DO use cheese :)
when i was a kid i've always seen it as.. it's okay too use what the animal give us..not use the animal all together..that's so prehistoric lol :)

September 1st, 2004, 11:22 PM
meet your meet is a good thing. It helps you see why being vegitarian is not enough and vegan is the animal rightous thing to be. There are other good videos at

September 1st, 2004, 11:24 PM
sorry forgot to mention after reading additions by iron knight,
QUOTE'products and who may still use animal products such as leather, fur, etc. ' that sounds very american such strict definitions are not often used here. i have not had many ppl give a description as that above (i have heard it but not much).
i will only use secound hand animal products (leather, fur), i do not buy them as demand =supply and im not going to have one more cow killed for my shoes, i would rather wear none, but secound hand is just using the animals skin respectfully to me, it died for it so use it as long as you can, recycle that product as many times as possible so that animals life was not wasted and its sacrifice respected.
our cloths are all cotton, hemp or recycled plastic fibers and come from sources that are kind to the environment. we have plastic recycled cloths, that is a technology where recycled plastic bottle materials are reused to make various fabrics, the bush walking brands of mountain design and kathmandu sell these products..
i also op shop and collect all secound hand cloths that are nice, i will recycle anything i can, including clothing, a worn out dress becomes a cloth, then perhaps a polishing cloth, then a rag, the it ends its lifecycle on the compost heap or worm farm.
these days i can get recycled anything and dont have to buy brand new, i can even get recycled shoes, that is shoes with a base made out of recycled tyre matierial. :)

September 1st, 2004, 11:25 PM
yay ieonknight, that is good to hear :D

September 1st, 2004, 11:27 PM
QUOTE'It helps you see why being vegitarian is not enough '
sorry but can you elaborate, i dont know what you mean :)
surely your not saying that being a vegetarian is only a half arsed job, and that vegan is the only way?? i dont agree with veganism. do you know not milking a cow or goat will kill it?? i dont support killing any animal and that is why im vego not vegan.
q for vegans, what is your opinion of the milking statement above, do you find not milking a cow ok or is it cruel to you?? this is not to judge you but just to see what you think and find out about your practices and belief.

September 1st, 2004, 11:28 PM
Hemp is alot better than trees. You all know the statistics, In three months you can grow enough hemp to supply the same demand as twelve years worth of trees. weve all heard it before. As vegan or (snicker) vegitarian we should also remember environmental issues.

September 1st, 2004, 11:31 PM
egg laying hens have it 1ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo times worse than regular slaughter hens. Milk cows are also tourtured through out there lives in ways beef cattle are not, and if you support the milk industry you are also supporting the veal industry. Who wants to kill a calf?!
choose the short video, "meet your meat"

September 1st, 2004, 11:38 PM
Melanie i'd be afriad to get on your bad side LOL
just kidding i totally agree with everything you say..

i see Pinkeyedmouse is taking this serious.. LOL

September 1st, 2004, 11:40 PM
After a childhood of diet-restricting allergies (got over most of them), I just don't want anymore diet restrictions. So even though I don't particularly like meat, and have many qualms about eating cute creatures, I haven't lept the noble leap many of you have. But I sure don't eat much of it! Tofu is cheap, fresh and so delicious in Asia!

September 1st, 2004, 11:43 PM
QUOTE (snicker) vegitarian' well that is downright nasty, why would you do that, cant you have intellegent discussion :mad: :mad: :mad: i take great offense to that and i know you meant to offend, did you write that because you think your practice is the only right one?? i personally think vegans extreme freaks who have no idea what they are talking about, you mention nothing useful but hemp, well that aint going to save the world, come back to reality. :mad:

QUOTE'and if you support the milk industry you are also supporting the veal industry. Who wants to kill a calf?!'
so you are saying stop milking and let them all die a painful death, yeah thats a real nice attitude for a vegan.

you say environmental issues, trees are not the only issue here but you do not mention any others, since you are sooo well informed why dont you enlighten the group to at least 3 more environmental issues surrounding flesh production?? (other than the several this well informed vegetarian gave above).

September 2nd, 2004, 12:00 AM
Wow, delicate subject :eek:

How's this for "messed up" I don't use any products (make up, soaps etc) that are tested on animals, yet I eat meat, use lumber, and work with drugs that have probably been tested on animals to save animals? :confused:

It's a cruel, mixed up, muddled up, ironic world we live in.

September 2nd, 2004, 12:21 AM
I've been vegetarian for about 11 years now I guess and just recently vegan. Lost a lot of weight fast, feel better, more energy, and to me,it's a more thoughtful way of living. Meet your meat is a good video, yes, I agree. has veg forums if anyone is interested in going vegetarian or needs advice. Also, no leather, no fur etc for me. And, just to respond to someones comment about vegans being "freaks".......I may be a lot of things, but a freak isn't one of them. I have a blurb in the cafe about meat and the environment ........if you'd like me to post it here, let me know.
:) Sharon ;)

September 2nd, 2004, 12:23 AM
Shae..this is off topic but i've always liked your Avatar LOL
i got that ..dont use it cuz you're using it :)

September 2nd, 2004, 12:26 AM
Thank you IronKnight! Feel free to use it, anything that promotes vegetarianism! :)

September 2nd, 2004, 12:39 AM
sorry shae but i didnt mean to insult you, i was just a bit p'd off at someones elses post when i wrote that.
but can i say there are statistics from health care professionals that show a high number of children of vegans to be malnutritioned, i dont agree with the practice and i dont think kids should be vegan, it should be a choice for them.
i believe leaving animals to suffer from udder disease and egg boundness/waiting to hatch is far to cruel. animals produce these products naturally, milk and eggs, i dont understand why you wouldnt use them, if you dont it can cause serious and painful health probs for the animal. my girls lay eggs, if they are not removed, the hens sit on those eggs forever waiting for a baby (and if you dont have rooster they are unfertalised), they will starve to protect the egg, can you imagine the mental stress and pain they feel??
i care too much for these animals to have them suffer in any way including the above mentioned problems. i personally could not watch a cow die slowly from udder disease, so i milk it. i cannot watch my chickens suffer anguish and unhappiness so i remove the unfertalised eggs (and if i had a rooster i would produce alot of chickens so i would have to sell some thus creating a horrid cycle).

please can a vegan give us exact reasons for this practice of not eating or consuming these products even though if we dont they will suffer?? i would really like to hear an intellegent vegan argument about this issue. (i am serious here ppl).

September 2nd, 2004, 12:44 AM
forgot to add above,now i am being inquisitive and ther is no insult or malice in this post.
if you dont agree with milk production and egg consumption what is the ideal situation for a vegan?? knowing that not milking a cow physicaly hurts that cow and causes intense pain and anguish, should the animals be killed thus ending the cycle of all production?? serious again here ppl :D
i would really like to know

Cactus Flower
September 2nd, 2004, 12:59 AM

How's this for "messed up" I don't use any products (make up, soaps etc) that are tested on animals, yet I eat meat, use lumber, and work with drugs that have probably been tested on animals to save animals?
(For whatever it's worth, that's many of us- except we buy the prescriptions rather than working with the drugs)

I nearly cheered out loud at your post. What guts you have to be SO honest, and especially on a thread like this!


September 2nd, 2004, 01:16 AM
I am sooooooo sleepy. Yet, I wanted to reply Mel. No offense taken by the way. :) Instead of responding, which will tak em forever.....yawning.....just snoop through this site or the cafe has some postings on veganism. (No need to register or anything if you just want to lurk...*L*) Hope this helps......if not, I can post my reasons tomorrow if thats ok. Oh, I'll quickly just explain one reason for not drinking supports the meat industry in the way that, in order to produce milk, the cow must continue to give birth, the males are taken at that point and used for veal or???? To continue bringing in profit for milk.....they continue having babes. Its an ongoing cycle. Many cows end up having their life expectancy cut short, and many find themselves crippled way before their time. So, here are a few sites to check for the info if you would like.

Have a great evening! *yawn*

September 2nd, 2004, 01:18 AM

What's Wrong with Dairy Products?
Facts about Vegetarian and Vegan Diets
Compiled from The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

Many Americans, including some vegetarians, still consume large amounts of dairy products. Here are eight important reasons to eliminate dairy products from your diet.

1. Osteoporosis

Milk is touted for preventing osteoporosis, yet clinical research shows otherwise. The Harvard Nurses’ Health Study,1 which followed more than 75,000 women for 12 years, showed no protective effect of increased milk consumption on fracture risk. In fact, increased intake of calcium from dairy products was associated with a higher fracture risk. An Australian study2 showed the same results. Additionally, other studies3,4 have also found no protective effect of dairy calcium on bone. You can decrease your risk of osteoporosis by reducing sodium and animal protein intake in the diet,5-7 increasing intake of fruits and vegetables,8 exercising,9 and ensuring adequate calcium intake from plant foods such as leafy green vegetables and beans, as well as calcium-fortified products such as breakfast cereals and juices.

2. Cardiovascular Disease

Dairy products—including cheese, ice cream, milk, butter, and yogurt—contribute significant amounts of cholesterol and fat to the diet.10 Diets high in fat and saturated fat can increase the risk of several chronic diseases including cardiovascular disease. A low-fat vegetarian diet that eliminates dairy products, in combination with exercise, smoking cessation, and stress management, can not only prevent heart disease, but may also reverse it.11 Non-fat dairy products are available, however, they pose other health risks as noted below.

3. Cancer
Several cancers, such as ovarian cancer, have been linked to the consumption of dairy products. The milk sugar lactose is broken down in the body into another sugar, galactose. In turn, galactose is broken down further by enzymes. According to a study by Daniel Cramer, M.D., and his colleagues at Harvard,12 when dairy product consumption exceeds the enzymes’ capacity to break down galactose, it can build up in the blood and may affect a woman’s ovaries. Some women have particularly low levels of these enzymes, and when they consume dairy products on a regular basis, their risk of ovarian cancer can be triple that of other women.

Breast and prostate cancers have also been linked to consumption of dairy products, presumably related, at least in part, to increases in a compound called insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I).13-15 IGF-I is found in cow’s milk and has been shown to occur in increased levels in the blood by individuals consuming dairy products on a regular basis.16 Other nutrients that increase IGF-I are also found in cow’s milk. A recent study showed that men who had the highest levels of IGF-I had more than four times the risk of prostate cancer compared with those who had the lowest levels.14

4. Diabetes

Insulin-dependent diabetes (Type I or childhood-onset) is linked to consumption of dairy products. Epidemiological studies of various countries show a strong correlation between the use of dairy products and the incidence of insulin-dependent diabetes.17,18 Researchers in 199218 found that a specific dairy protein sparks an auto-immune reaction, which is believed to be what destroys the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas.

5. Lactose Intolerance

Lactose intolerance is common among many populations, affecting approximately 95 percent of Asian Americans, 74 percent of Native Americans, 70 percent of African Americans, 53 percent of Mexican Americans, and 15 percent of Caucasians.19 Symptoms, which include gastrointestinal distress, diarrhea, and flatulence, occur because these individuals do not have the enzymes that digest the milk sugar lactose. Additionally, along with unwanted symptoms, milk-drinkers are also putting themselves at risk for development of other chronic diseases and ailments.

6. Vitamin D Toxicity
Consumption of milk may not provide a consistent and reliable source of vitamin D in the diet. Samplings of milk have found significant variation in vitamin D content, with some samplings having had as much as 500 times the indicated level, while others had little or none at all.20,21 Too much vitamin D can be toxic and may result in excess calcium levels in the blood and urine, increased aluminum absorption in the body, and calcium deposits in soft tissue.

7. Contaminants

Synthetic hormones such as recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH) are commonly used in dairy cows to increase the production of milk.13 Because the cows are producing quantities of milk nature never intended, the end result is mastitis, or inflammation of the mammary glands. The treatment requires the use of antibiotics, and traces of these and hormones have been found in samples of milk and other dairy products. Pesticides and other drugs are also frequent contaminants of dairy products.

8. Health Concerns of Infants and Children

Milk proteins, milk sugar, fat, and saturated fat in dairy products may pose health risks for children and lead to the development of chronic diseases such as obesity, diabetes, and formation of athersclerotic plaques that can lead to heart disease.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that infants below one year of age not be given whole cow’s milk, as iron deficiency is more likely on a dairy-rich diet. Cow’s milk products are very low in iron. If they become a major part of one’s diet, iron deficiency is more likely.10 Colic is an additional concern with milk consumption. One out of every five babies suffers from colic. Pediatricians learned long ago that cows’ milk was often the reason. We now know that breastfeeding mothers can have colicky babies if the mothers are consuming cow’s milk. The cows’ antibodies can pass through the mother’s bloodstream into her breast milk and to the baby.22 Additionally, food allergies appear to be common results of milk consumption, particularly in children. A recent study23 also linked cow’s milk consumption to chronic constipation in children. Researchers suggest that milk consumption resulted in perianal sores and severe pain on defecation, leading to constipation.

Milk and dairy products are not necessary in the diet and can, in fact, be harmful to your health. Consume a healthful diet of grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes, and fortified foods including cereals and juices. These nutrient-dense foods can help you meet your calcium, potassium, riboflavin, and vitamin D requirements with ease—and without the health risks.

September 2nd, 2004, 01:19 AM
look at the US olympic teams.................not allowed dairy

its been proved that what was thought to be calcium hitting the body is calcium spores - causing - lots of problems

calcium is great - but you wouldnt eat a clams shell - as your body cant absorb it

why drink milk - how does the cow get its calcium?
go direct

factorty farming means the cows are kept pregnant permanently to produce the milk -

cows normally only produce milk when needed

feed pasturised milk to a calf - it dies very very quickly
(posted by Gibby ....ARC)

and one more by Shelly from A.R.C.

Sharon...I am living PROOF of the fact that cutting out dairy improves your cardiovascular health. I had hypertension and high cholesterol. I was advised to quit smoking, which I did, and I gave up meat and poultry for Lent. My heart condition improved a bit. But the biggest change came after I gave up dairy. My blood pressure averages are near normal in only a month and half! With NO medication and no extra exercise.

Okay, now I REALLY have to get sleep ! Goodnight all! Sharon

September 2nd, 2004, 02:19 AM
i eat meat... tired to be a veggie, just cant do it. I saw a cow and a pig slaughtered in one day and couldnt eat meat for a month.. then I got the cravings.. and to be quite honest here.. I have NO will power.. sad but true. Vegan or veggie or meat lover like me, none of these ways of life are wrong, merely a way of life. People were made to be able to eat meat or to eat veggies or both. Good thing about this world is that we get to decide which we prefer more. Everyone has a difference of opinion and some will preach to high heaven for what they believe is the "right way to live, and the decent thing to do"... But what some consider to be right is not nec. what another thinks is moral and the battle continues. I believe a wise man once said.. "cant we all just get along?"

September 2nd, 2004, 02:26 AM
oh shae, dont stay up, go to bed missy, i can wait till tomorrow, have a good sleep now wont you :D

my resident dairy farmer would like me to say this, (this farmer has been in the dairy industry for most of his life and has been part of the land his whole life)

'a cow does not need to keep having calves to produce milk. the first calve a cow has start milk production and it does not cease in a cow, the only time they dry up is when the cow is pregnant'.
so a cow has one calve and can produce milk its whole life. if it was necessary to keep them getting pregnant it would not be effecient and far to expensive.

i got this from the victorian (australia) better health organisation, which is a govt funded and supported org also supported by the australian med ass. this is what they have to say
Milk - the facts and fallacies
Milk is an excellent source of vitamins and minerals, particularly calcium. It has long been recognised for its important role in bone health. Nutritionists recommend that milk and other dairy products should be consumed daily as part of a balanced diet. There are fallacies in the general community about the health benefits of milk. Changing your milk intake on the basis of these fallacies may mean you are unnecessarily restricting this highly nutritious drink.

Milk contains many different nutrients
Milk and milk products contain a good balance of protein, fat and carbohydrate and are a very important source of essential nutrients including:

Vitamins A, D, B12
Pantothenic acid.
Milk products also contain 'high quality proteins' that are well suited to human needs. Milk proteins increase the value of poorer quality cereal and vegetable proteins in the diet by providing the amino acids these proteins lack.

Milk and health
Australians tend to restrict dairy foods when they try to lose weight, believing them to be fattening. Dairy foods contain saturated fats, which have been associated with increased blood cholesterol levels. However, dairy foods are not a threat to good health if consumed in moderation as part of a nutritious diet.

Australians receive most of their calcium from dairy foods. If milk is removed from the diet it can lead to an inadequate intake of calcium. This is of particular concern for women, who have high calcium needs. Calcium deficiency may lead to disorders like osteoporosis (a disease characterised by bone loss).

Colon cancer
Recent studies have found that people who eat a lot of dairy products or dairy product nutrients like calcium, have a reduced risk of developing colon cancer.

Blood pressure
Research in the US found that a high intake of fruits and vegetables combined with low-fat dairy decreased blood pressure more than fruits and vegetables alone.

Type 2 diabetes
A ten-year study of 3,000 overweight adults concluded that consuming milk and other milk products instead of refined sugars and carbohydrates may protect overweight young adults from developing type 2 diabetes.

Milk avoiders and flavoured milk
A recent US study reported that children who avoid milk tend to be fatter than children who drink milk. This may be because milk is being replaced by high energy drinks such as fruit juice or soft drinks.

As children move into adolescence, at the time they need the most calcium, they tend to drink less milk and more sugary soft drinks. As milk is a healthier choice, it is worth encouraging children to drink flavoured milk rather than soft drinks.

Milk and tooth decay
Milk and milk products are thought to protect against tooth decay. Eating cheese and other dairy products:
Reduces oral acidity (which causes decay)
Stimulates saliva flow
Decreases plaque formation
Decreases the incidence of dental caries.

Milk and mucous
Many people in Australia believe that nasal stuffiness is related, in part, to how much milk you drink. However, there is no scientific basis to this theory. Milk doesn't encourage extra mucous production.

Cow's milk versus goat's milk
Some people switch to goat's milk because of perceived sensitivities to cow's milk. If a person has an allergic sensitivity, it is usually due to one or more of the proteins in milk. The proteins in goat's milk are closely related to those in cow's milk so replacing one type of milk with the other usually doesn't make any difference. Although cow's and goat's milk are similar in composition, goat's milk is a greater source of calcium but a poorer source of folate.

Heated milk products, such as evaporated milk, seem to be better tolerated than unheated foods because the heating process breaks down some of the lactose.

Foods that contain lactose are better tolerated if eaten with other foods or spread out over the day, rather than being eaten in large amounts at once.

Foods that may contain hidden lactose include:
Biscuits and cakes
Processed breakfast cereals
Cheese sauce
Cream soups
Milk chocolate
Pancakes and pikelets
Scrambled eggs
Muesli bars
Some breads
Some margarines (containing milk).

Daily calcium requirements
To meet the body's daily calcium requirement, it is recommended that you eat three serves of dairy products a day. One serve is equivalent to:
250 ml of milk
35 g (one matchbox) of cheese
200 g yoghurt
200 g (four small scoops) of ice cream.
Milk products that are poor calcium sources include cream, cottage cheese, ricotta cheese and cream cheese.

People who do not eat any dairy products may have difficulty meeting their daily calcium requirements. They will need to pay special attention to other dietary sources of calcium.

Things to remember
Milk is an excellent source of calcium and other essential nutrients.
There are many modified milks available.
Reduced fat milk and milk products may help prevent oesteoporosis and diabetes and manage high blood pressure and body weight.

but i dont want cut and pasted information or answers to my Q's, i want the information i asked in my last post in your own words and reflecting your own beliefs not those of these organisations.

SSAC- dont ever be afraid to post your opinions, it is just those that are deliberatly insulting and totally illinformed (not you shae) that i get upset about. i respect your choice to eat meat, different courses for different horses so to speak :D

September 2nd, 2004, 11:02 AM
Why thankyou CF and Mel, don't worry I'm NEVER afraid to post my opinion :D

I will admit though, I do run (I'm no athelete though), and I enjoy an ice cold glass of 100% skimmed milk and I do get the odd calcium deposit :confused: (they eventually disolve)
My bones are probably being robbed due to too much calcium. But I do love my milk :)

Ce cera. As long as we all do what we can to help animals and the environment and with what fits into our own lifestyles. Every little thing helps. And bravo to the people that can go all the way ;)

September 2nd, 2004, 12:12 PM
i eat meat... tired to be a veggie, just cant do it. I saw a cow and a pig slaughtered in one day and couldnt eat meat for a month.. then I got the cravings.. and to be quite honest here.. I have NO will power.. sad but true."

Same with me!! i tried to be a vegatarian once, i lasted about 2 weeks, and just couldnt do it!! i would have no problem not eating steak and those kinds of meat, but i LOVE chicken!! I do feel guilty though.

September 2nd, 2004, 12:22 PM
I'm a veggie (tho' not a vegan - yet - love my milky tea, hate soy milk), but everyone has to decide for themselves. Purists (of any kind) are SUCH a bore, don't you think?

September 2nd, 2004, 12:26 PM
Haha Meggie, I love chicken too! thats my weak spot. Ill eat a salad no problem.. but its even better with some grilled chicken on top.. yumm.. And would never, ever be able to give up seafood. Lobster, shrimp, crab.. geez, Im making myself hungry..

September 2nd, 2004, 12:45 PM
*Juicy Steak yum yum* <--- that's me!!! I like them, I like 'em a lot! Sometimes I have had some experiences that have turned me off for a couple of days, like taking the skin of chicken legs.... * where's the barfy emoticon?? *
Iron - will you eat Hagus? ;)

September 2nd, 2004, 12:53 PM
Iron - will you eat Hagus? ;)
no i wont eat haggis ewww!
but if this Other (LOL) hagus happends to be you then my all means YES lol

September 2nd, 2004, 01:10 PM
no i wont eat haggis ewww!
but if this Other (LOL) hagus happends to be you then my all means YES lol

Huh, maybe I should remove my picture now.... :p

September 2nd, 2004, 01:46 PM
Hi Mel......As far as I know,at least this is what I was lead to believe......... cows are forced to have a calf every year to produce milK. As they are inseminated during their lactation period, they continue to have milk during their following pregnancy. They have a dry period of about 60 days (at the most ), in the latest part of pregnancy.

Furthermore, they are manipulated so as to give ten or twelve times more milk than they would give otherwise. So, at the age of 3 or 4, dairy cows are in a very, very bad state and sent to the slaughterhouse.

September 2nd, 2004, 01:53 PM
:p I think Iron is stalking!! LOL

I'm not vegan/vegeterian

I eat organic but rarely if ever any red meat. I eat mostly white meat (turkey, chicken and fish).

Toronto folks will know The Big Carrot a institution around her for us organic folks. I was just there today btw and picked up some turkey, chicken and lots of fruits and veggies and got some great deals too! Love the discount veggie cart woo hoo I get so happy when I see that!

If you like soy or like pudding ya'll gotta try BEL SOY Vanilla pudding OMG
to die for!


September 2nd, 2004, 03:00 PM
Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,050

Fecal Matter?.....Gross!

A 1996 USDA study found that 78.6% of U.S. ground beef was contaminated with fecal matter! *GAG*
Need I say more? :eek:

September 2nd, 2004, 03:03 PM
Petas weekly newsletter

In light of America’s latest meat recall, which involved 497,000 pounds of beef feared contaminated with E. coli bacteria and distributed to Sam’s Club stores in 10 states, PETA is reminding consumers of the substantial health risks associated with eating animal flesh with a billboard that reads, “Eat Meat and Die—Go Vegetarian.” In 2003, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) issued 21 recalls for ground beef alone. This latest recall of ground beef is the fourth contaminated meat recall in 2004.

But these recent recalls aren’t the only times that Americans have been exposed to deadly bacteria; in fact, some 55.3 million pounds of contaminated animal flesh were recalled in 2002, including 27.4 million pounds of processed poultry from a Pilgrim’s Pride plant in Franconia, Pa. That’s enough bad meat to make a fecal sandwich for every single American!
Most of the flesh from the 10 billion cows, pigs, and birds butchered every year in this country is contaminated with E. coli bacteria from feces. A 1995 USDA study found that more than 99 percent of “broiler” chicken carcasses contained detectable levels of E. coli. The March 1998 Consumer Reports—great bathroom reading material for meat-eaters—also reported that some generic E. coli (an indicator of fecal contamination) is present on virtually every chicken on the market.

“Eat meat and die” is becoming a common theme among Americans who choose to consume dead animals. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), foodborne illnesses cause approximately 76 million cases of gastrointestinal illness, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths per year in the United States. According to scientist Guy Plunkett of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where the genetic code of E. coli was mapped, as few as 10 to 100 E. coli bacteria are sufficient to infect a human.

Another strain of bacteria to look out for, listeria, is found in animal feces and other animal sources. The bacteria are killed by cooking, but here’s the problem: Nobody cooks deli meats, like the 27 million pounds of recalled flesh produced by Pilgrim’s Pride. The consequence: Deli meats kill people. Listeria attacks everyone, especially old people and pregnant women, causing severe infections, severe illness, and death. The USDA investigated at least 20 deaths, several miscarriages, and 120 illnesses linked to listeria contamination from the Franconia, Pa., Pilgrim’s Pride plant in 2002. Meanwhile, every year, thousands more Americans suffer listeria attacks, and hundreds die.

E. coli and listeria aren’t the only bacteria bugging meat-lovers. Each year, campylobacter is responsible for up to 1 million foodborne illnesses and 100 deaths, and salmonella sickens about 40,000 people and kills about 600. Nearly all meat is infected with dangerous bacteria that can prove deadly for human beings. This makes sense, considering that “meat” is a euphemism for rotting animal flesh.

There is simply no such thing as “safe” meat. In addition to foodborne contaminants, animal products contribute to heart attacks, strokes, high cholesterol levels, obesity, high blood pressure, and a slew of other health problems. So if you want to spend your time on the beach instead of in the hospital—or the grave—throw animal products in the garbage, and go vegetarian.

September 2nd, 2004, 03:10 PM
Everyday I am becoming more and more disgusted with meat. Mainly redmeat but also chicken and turkey.... and I hate seafood and fish.
A few years ago I did not eat meat but then slowly turned to eating meat at least 5 times a week! This conversation is making me want to go vegetarian again... although I don't know what kind I would be considered because I can't drink milk anyway, but I would find it hard to stay away from cheeses and eggs.

An interesting fact about fast food hamburgers.... ONE hamburger coming from a fast food chain is well likely to have come from thousands of different cows, that in itself is sick! One bad apple does in fact spoil the whole bunch!!!!!!

September 2nd, 2004, 03:15 PM
Pretty disgusting isn't it Sneaky? I'm veg and I nearly gagged when I read that. You can go veg quite easily if you think about the fecal statement. *ARRRGH* Sorry if anyone got grossed out but, it is what it is.
There are some "vegetarians " that still consume dairy products...some eat eggs still but no meat,etc......

September 2nd, 2004, 03:18 PM
Yes! That is disgusting!!!
I had a friend from school that was such a strict vegetarian... she wouldn't even eat jello!

September 2nd, 2004, 03:21 PM
Well, I guess I'm with your friend on that one though......jello really grosses me out. *LOL*

September 2nd, 2004, 03:21 PM
Anyone here care to know whats in the hot dogs ??? (Speaking of disgusting)

September 2nd, 2004, 03:22 PM
Isn't gum in that category too?

September 2nd, 2004, 03:23 PM
my dad used to tell me the nice things that go into hotdogs - pigeons and boots, but then I found out the truth - lips and bum-holes! :eek:

September 2nd, 2004, 03:24 PM
Ughhh, hotdogs... sausage (ok, WTF is the hard things? lol), spam, pepperoni!
Just the thought of it makes me sick. Don't answer that pls! :D

September 2nd, 2004, 03:26 PM
IF I told u things you all would be I won't and just say
eat organic! ESP red meat!!

September 2nd, 2004, 03:29 PM

September 2nd, 2004, 03:32 PM
Gum???............Hmmmmm, not sure

September 2nd, 2004, 03:37 PM
Organic redmeat??? Luba?

September 2nd, 2004, 03:43 PM
Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to do it......if you don't want to know, close eyes. *L*


Female Hormones? Why? So the animals will gain waterweight before being butchered.. and make more profit. These hormones are banned in Europe because they cause prostate, uterine and breast cancer

Sodium Nitrate Sodium nitrate, red dye no. 2 forms with animal proteins in the stomach to make carcinogenic nitrosamines.

Why Are Hot Dogs Dyed? Because otherwise they would be brown, the color of the intestines.

What Are Natural Casings? Some hotdogs come with an NC on the package, standing for natural casings. Natural casings are the actual intestinal links of the butchered animal, and are like everything else saturated with ecoli or colon bacteria.

What's In Hot Dogs? Lips Snouts Ground Up Hooves Eyelashes Tails Spinal Cords Other Slop from Slaughterhouse Floor

When profiteers say some hot dogs have everything but the squeal, they can be taken literally. Howard Lyman got a spinal tumor fromeating the meat of animals on his 4th generation Montana cattle farm. He promised God that if he recovered (he was told he would never walk again) he would end ranching. He began to tell the world about the animals fed to other animals.When he described this on Oprah Winfrey's show, they were both sued by Amarillo cattlemen. The 5thCircuit recently upheld them, saying the truth is not libelous. However the Amarillo cattlemen, majorcontributors to George Bush, Gov Perry, Tom Delay and others, have sued again.

Oh I'd Love to Be An Oscar Mayer Wiener is a lie by ad execs. In reality 1100 pigs an hour were butchered in Madison Wisconsin. The sound they make would rend any heart which is why slaughterhouses have the most turnover of any occupation. The kicking terrified animals make slaughterhouse and deep fishing the 2 most dangerous occupations. Oscar Mayer with its Oscar Mobile is guilty of criminal child endangering as it promotes leukemia and food poisoning engendering food. The Minnesota Dept of Health says to give a child rare meat is like driving your child 95 mph down a road.

What about pet food? When animals are so full of cancer that even the meat inspectors condemn their carcasses, the bodies are put in the pet food tankers. Dog and cat cancers are multiplying.

So are you saying that hot dog buns are little coffins for the cadavers of pigs' buns? Yes

Ralph Nader who is not yet a vegetarian.. said he would never
eat a hot dog and wrote about why.
A meatcutter in upstate NY said although he was not a vegetarian
he would never eat coldcuts or hot dogs.

George Bernard Shaw once asked a man with a meatless plate next to him if he was like Shaw a vegetarian. The man replied.. I wasn't til I became a meat inspector.

Revised July 10, 2002

PLEASE POLYPOST: (7000 vegan MD's)
Blood, trioxypurine, adrenalin, cholesterol, prions, fecal matter, colon bacteria, toxoplasmosis, trichinosis, insecticides, female hormones, antibiotics, mercury, arsenic, chromium, polychlorinated biphenols, no vitamin C, no natural bulk, senility, sterility, cancer, anthrax, lead, Mad Cow, Mad Deer, impotence, fly dung, smallpox, tularemia, Alzheimer's, alcoholism, addiction

. THE BLOOD is called juice after its chemical nature changes from cooking.
. SWEAT OR PRE URINE is uric acid or trixoypurine.. more addictive than caffein (dioxypurine). It is the primary cause of arthritis and rigidity as it crystallizes into needles jabbing the joints. Uric acid would have been eliminated by the animal's muscle cells had she not been butchered. Carnivores have 5 times the kidney size per pound of body weight.
. TEARS THE ADRENALIN secreted by terrorized animals survives
cooking.. since it is a protein enzyme.. only some of whose links are broken.. it is the ingestion of anger, terror, and agony. Such meat adrenalin has been correlated to violence. A recent Maryland prison study reported reduced violence in those eating vegetables. Ingesting meat causes the body to be a constant state of unnatural alert.
. THE FECES poured out by terrorized animals has traces of ecoli or colon bacteria.. not only their own waste but that of other cows on which they often slip as they are being skinned alive at Iowa Beef Processors or other sites. Dr. John Harvy Kellogg, affiliated in the last century with Kellogg cereals found that after a few hours ecoli (colon or intestinal bacteria) can multiply into the billions. As trillions of gallons of fecal matter are dumped into the waterways, ecoli or colon bacteria based infections are coming to vegetarians as well as nonvegetarians.
. ALzheimer's Disease is caused by ALcohol, cooking with ALuminum, and the prions in ALlanimal protein.
. The animal fat in meat clogs cerebral arteries.
(Wm Shakespeare in "Twelfth Night": "He is a heavy eater of beef. Methinks it doth harm to his wit." )
C is in no animal products.. It speeds up the flow of brain snyapse
messages and promotes connective tissue in the skin, said two time Nobel Laureaute Linus Pauling, who defined an orthomolecule as a molecule in fruit. C is a toxin bouncer.
Animal fat clogs the arteries causing heart attacks and strokes, which are the single major cause of death in the world. Meat deaths per year outdo alcohol, tobacco, and accidents combined. It is not just the animal fat in meat which causes this, but the uric acid (trioxypurine) is an unnatural stimulant, as is the adrenalin enzyme.
Adrenalin mobilizes the body for fight or flight. Meateating puts the body in a constant state of stress.
Countries with the highest meat consumption have the highest rates of
intestinal cancer. Canada, Australia, the US, Argentina, and Chile
are some of these. Meat has no natural
bulk and causes a constipation which leads to total blockage.
Dr Mervyn Hardinge working at an Ivy League university
found that vegans weigh 23 lbs. less than nonvegetarians while dairy
vegetarians weigh 12 lbs. less. Fruitarians weighed least. In the 3
month study, the groups were
all given the same number of calories per day. The increased bulk and
lack of constipating flesh in vegetarian and vegan diets is a factor.
bioterrorism all originate in the consumption of animal flesh or
contact with their skins (hides, leather making, wool sorters'
disease) The USDA which protects the multi trillion dollar
meat industry while attempting to prevent diversity in fruit seeds
from entering the country attributes only 700 deaths in animals to
anthrax last year (500 in Texas) while virtually only NBC reported
the anthrax in November 2001 in 21 California cows.
Susan Miller, voice specialist with Georgetown Univ Hosp (a
vivisecting institution) has spoken of the rigidity of vocal chords
caused by dioxypurine (caffeine). Trioxypurine (uric acid in meat) is
even more damaging.
An environmental magazine reported in Jan of 73 that the longest
lived people in the world were the 3 vegetarian tribes: Villcabamba
of Ecuador, Hunzas of Tibet & Pakistan and Azerbaijans or Abkhasians
of the Caucusus. In June of 2002 NPR reported Abkhasians
118 years old, on a vegetarian diet. All have many centenarians.
Conversely the shortest lived
people are Inuit males subsisting primarily on animal flesh and fat
and fish flesh.
There are polychlorinated biphenols even in the livers of polar
bears. The country with the most vegetarians in percentage and
numbers is India. The United Kingdom, Thailand and Israel
have higher than average percentage of vegetarians.
AMYLOID PLAQUE a biproduct of meateating correlated to ALzheimer's
Disease as are ALcohol and cooking with ALuminum
There are tens of thousands of diseases caused by the consumption of
the flesh of animals. The USDA listed slightly over 100 in the early
part of the 20th Century, but as knowledge has increased and toxic
pollutants have saturated the environment, the number has increased.
PERITONITIS When George Wallace was shot, he never completely healed
from peritonitis caused by the bullet ripping through his intestinal
tract after he had just eaten a hamburger. The bullet carried colon
bacteria throughout the body.
GANGRENE The downed cows passed into the human meat supply by
the corrupt USDA are often gangrenous.
PUTREFACTION: Like any corpse, animal flesh (meat) deteriorates after
death. Even when the cadaver is frozen, creiophilic bacteria
multiply. (see below) The inability of the body efficiently to digest
animal flesh is a cause of appendicitis. When the animal flesh is
heated, thermophilic bacteria develop. Dr John Harvey Kellogg found
that billions of ecoli
bacteria multiply in the body after the animal is dead a few hours.
The phrase ecoli-contaminated is redundant since all animal flesh is
contaminated by ecoli or colon bacteria.
GELATIN a name for the ground up bones of animals.. which
can contain Mad Cow frequent brand name Jello
MAD COW MAD DEER MAD ELK ETC Dr Stanley Prusiner went to the
University of California from Harvard to receive more priority for
his prion work, which won a Nobel Prize. Mad Cow proteins can
incubate for 50 years said the World Health Organization's
communicable disease division on the CBC. (Gelatin containing Mad Cow
is found in jello, gelcaps, soaps, toothpastes, soups etc. Vegans are
catheterized much more seldom than nonvegans. However if by chance a
vegan is unconscious and catheterized against her will, often the
gels used against her will are animal derived.
The 5th Circuit has just upheld Howard Lyman after Amarillo cattlemen
sued him. The Court held the truth is not libelous.
HEPATITIS The second cause of hepatitis is the consumption
of coprophagous (waste-eating) shellfish (lobsters, clams,
shrimp etc.) Raw sewage is dumped into the Atlantic from
several cities. Hepatitis is inflammation of the liver.
Dick Gregory states that eating liver can be compared
to eating the filter from a car.
. THE PRIONS cause cancer. Prion diseases include CJD, Creutzfeld-
Disease, GSS Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker syndrome, FFI, Fatal
Familial Insomnia,
Kuru, a disease cannibals contract from eating human brains, (as
contract Mad Cow, Mad Deer and other diseases from being fed other
animals' parts),
Alpers Sydrome

"If you saw how they made hot dogs you wouldn't take a bite out of them."

-Bill Cosby- in NPR interview promoting his new book I AM WHAT I ATE AND I'M FRIGHTENED
He is rethinking his ads for Mad Cow Jello (gelatin, ground up cows' bones, is put
into candies, ice creams etc.)
(thank to AV for posting this in the animal rights cafe!) :)

September 2nd, 2004, 03:48 PM
Organic red meat is simply cows that graze on natural grains and feed
NOT byproduct growth hormone and protein riched feed like non organic.
This is how we got mad cow disease in them and us.

Within the next `10 years mad cow will be epidemic, with thousands dying from it both human and non human.

There's no way to kill it, can't burn it, the disease survives the cremation process.

So I say to you, since the government has not banned feeding animal by product BACK to animals STOP buying grocery store meat and buy organic, if you value your brain the way it is!!

There's a restaurant at a race track in New Jersey where 17+ people died from Mad Cow from eating meat there.

Just a word of caution, it's a disease that can incubate for 20 years so there's no test to decipher if you got it until you die and they cut open your brain!! Even then pathologists don't wanna do it because they don't want to contaminate their instruments and surgical suite!

September 2nd, 2004, 04:00 PM
Thanks Luba!

To all the strict vegetarians out there, I just found an interesting site... It's a list of all hidden animal products... how many are YOU eating???

September 2nd, 2004, 04:05 PM
Sneaky....great site, I've seen a similar one. They try to trick you by using words one doesn't know the true definition of. I feel products need to be labelled, contains animal ingredients....or does NOT contain animal ingredients.These companies know exactly what they're doing.

September 2nd, 2004, 04:06 PM
It's lovely to be informed :D isn't it!! :D

September 2nd, 2004, 04:08 PM
*** Ignorance is bliss *** :( :p

September 2nd, 2004, 04:10 PM
Ok, Shae, who do we write to about that one???
They've now had to put a warning on anything that includes wheat or nuts, because of allergies... can't there be one about animal product?

Oh, Sammiec... I have to apologize and admit that I still call you sammy-yack in my head whenever I read your name... I feel so guilty!! :p Sorry, off subject...

September 2nd, 2004, 04:12 PM
Hey if they don't have to tell you it's Genetically Modified (which almost EVERYTHING grown non organic IS) then why this?

If they had to identify, they'd lose money. The govt has a big hand in this bank acct I tell ya!

September 2nd, 2004, 04:16 PM
How very true!

September 2nd, 2004, 04:16 PM
Wow,what a long testimony for vegetarians :eek:
I do admire your vegetarian ways and wish I could be the same,hubby would love it!!
I am a great cook,but trying to cook a dinner of just vegetables,does nothing for me and I would probably starve to death...I do not eat pasta of any kind,feel so sorry for all those little
macaronies:D :D
Tofu,forget it,just the thought.... :eek:
I do have to admit when I eat a sirloin-steak,porkchops or whatever,my conciense is bothering for hamburgermeat,I grind it myself,ever since mysterious objects were found mixed into hamburger.
Vegetables and fruits I buy organic,eggs from free-roaming chickens.
I eat meat maybe 3 times a week,otherwise salads and nice french bread and a beer goes with every meal,no milk!!!
I also am an absolut chocaholic :D
As for veggies,the only things I would consider is Asparagus,canned peas :D ,turnip yum!!!
If anyone can suggest a good vegetarian cook-book I would certainly give it a try for my husband,I could survive on choclate, 2 beers,salad and bread every day :D ooops,forgot to add cheese,love any cheese,except slices!

September 2nd, 2004, 04:18 PM
Sneaky....good question.........I know just the person to ask too. She's hardcore ARA. I'll talk to her and let you know.

September 2nd, 2004, 04:22 PM
Ok, thanks!!!

September 2nd, 2004, 04:27 PM
Of course, for those of you that know there are those "hidden ingredents" you can do what I do.....either memorize the list or print it out and carry with you shopping. Sounds a bit eccentric perhaps, but it's just something that means a lot to me.I'm sure I've ingested animal derived products without being aware and of course, I'm fine and still here *L*BUT it's a personal choice and a way of life that really means a lot to me. It feels great to be ableto walk past a pasture and have a cow or calf approach me....I can look into their eyes and feel a sense of comfort knowing I dont eat them, but oof course, I get sappy, knowing someone else will.

September 2nd, 2004, 04:28 PM
I'm with Luba... i dont see anyone else talking about Organic ..

back to Nature :) ..i buy Organic when i can afford it lol...
the colour of Organic veggies alone are So much brighter and colourfull..

Cactus Flower
September 2nd, 2004, 04:57 PM
So, I take it you all would not appreciate the bumper sticker on my Jeep, which says, simply: "ANIMALS TASTE GOOD". :D :) :D :)

I am a recovering vegetarian.

Not a huge meat-eater, but God help anyone who stands between me and the all-you-can-eat crableg buffet.

September 2nd, 2004, 05:00 PM
Recovering veggie LOL good one!! ;)

Glad others are looking into organic consumption.

September 2nd, 2004, 05:00 PM
no in australia gm products are indicated in the ingredients on the pack, and all that hidden stuff, i dont quite understand what you are saying, are you saying vegs are gullible?? in aus we have many products that are marked 'suitable for vegetarians and vegans", if it is not marked we dont get it and all products offer some vege alternative, we just must have very different food laws to you. also any real vege would be informed and know many products contain meat derivitives, such as jelly or mcdonalds milkshake mix

a cow has one calf and can keep milking it is simple, it is the same as a woman, 1 baby and she can produce milk as long as she wants (yes im very aware of some woman not being able to produce etc, thre are many causes, i am saying a normal woman with normal milk) gosh there used to be huge societies of nursing mothers, woman who produced milk over many to feed other womans babies, they could keep milking for years and they did not need ot have child every yr to keep producing milk

September 2nd, 2004, 05:11 PM
Mel, don't get so defensive. My comment was not directed personally at your father or otherwise. Take note......the 1st sentence in my post....I was lead to believe......I'm investigating claims made to me. No need to get hostile. I probably do not even belong in this forum anyway as I am an ARA. Peta does a lot of good for the animals. I don'tclaim to believe EVERYTHING they claim or stand for...I do have a mind of my own and I use it. I'm in the midst of starting and running a non profit org in BC. .....I didn't come here to get blasted, just noticed the subject and thought I'd share my beliefs. Maybe I really should stick to the animalrightscafe. Again, I wasnt and never would make a personal attack Mel. Thats not who I am or what I am about. My apologies if I offended you. That was not my intention at all

September 2nd, 2004, 05:37 PM
shae, please come back here missy, i didnt mean to upset you. im not attacking you or being cranky, but i have been in this position many times before, having vegetarianism questioned or attempted to be shown up (but that was not you, someone else did that by making a mean comment about vegetarians, this is how i got all worked up in the first place). i was not cranky, just passionate, cant help it.

i became a vegetarian when i was a young girl, in rural australia that was not such an acceptable thing to do and i have always copped alot of crap about vegetarianism or simimilar. so i am very defensive about the issue and it is one of those things that really gets my goat (like the pun? :D ).
i had actually just came back her to say lets agree to disagree and read your post? sounds good to me. also i never expect anyone to take what i say as gospel, it is all just food for thought. but maybe i should not have said anything in the first place as I know what i am like :rolleyes: oh well doesnt matter :D

September 2nd, 2004, 05:44 PM
I probably do not even belong in this forum anyway as I am an ARA

What is that suppose to mean? the rest of use are not
Animal Right's Activist...

can you please clarify what you mean?

i never expect anyone to take what i say as gospel
But i do take what you say as gospel.. ah feel itttt AAAAAMEN Sista!!!

September 2nd, 2004, 05:55 PM
ironknight your such a fool :D :p

September 2nd, 2004, 05:59 PM
Huh, that's interesting. I'm not sure I belong on this forum since I am not ARA. Don't get me wrong -- I'm in favour of animal rights and have supported financially at times, but my personal involvement in activism has been for labour and human rights... It seems to me there are a lot of animal rights activists here -- not just Shae... Maybe ARA stands for something else? Shae, you there??? Want to clear this up?

September 2nd, 2004, 08:18 PM
Certainly............... There is a substantial difference (s) between being an ARA,pet lover per say and for animal welfare.
Simply put, Animal rights activists are against any and all exploitation of animals ie: Rodeos,circuses,zoos, raising and slaughtering of livestock,eating meat,hunting,trapping, vivisection, all animal testing/research, breeding, pet shops, all abuse and forms of cruelty, fur,leather, etc,etc........We try to get the word out there on these practices and frequently do demos and protests,etc.
I would assume that many members here are for animal welfare per say. Animal welfare is also working towards prevention and cruelty to animals, however, believe slaughter etc is ok as long as the animal is being treated properly,etc prior to death. Maybe there are ARA's in the group, I don't really know. I mentioned, there is a general tendency to assume that animal welfare, animal rights and animal protection are the same thing. This is a misconception that must be clarified. (article ARC)
While animal welfare is a science dedicated to research on methods to reduce suffering in animals used by man, animal rights is a ,movement supported by the philosophy that animals should be given rights by governments. These rights vary according to the holding of the various organisations working for the advocacy of animal rights.
Animal protection is not necessarily a movement nor a research activity, but this denomination is usually applied to the organisations that collect and care for animals in need as for example animal shelters, or provide support for studies and activities that contribute to the reduction of animal suffering. Organizations dedicated to the protection of animals often share some ideals from animal rights philosophy, but not necessarily. These organisations may extended their action to both domestic and wild animals, some of them specializing in one or the other.

Animal rights movement may some how have influenced the direction in which research on animal welfare is done. For example, the idea defended by animal rights activists that animals should have the right to be free from suffering is also shared by people research on animal welfare . However in animal welfare avoidance of suffering is not seen as a right, but rather as an obligation of humans towards the animals in their care.

Hope this clarifies it up for you.........Have a great evening

September 2nd, 2004, 08:25 PM
Absolutely Shae! Thanks so much!

September 2nd, 2004, 08:26 PM
Melanie, it's your note too. Replying

September 2nd, 2004, 10:20 PM
Not a huge meat-eater, but God help anyone who stands between me and the all-you-can-eat crableg buffet.

Oh I so agree........In our family we go to an all you can eat buffet if your birthday falls on the weekends they have all you can eat crab.....and thats all I eat :o and the birthday person eats free :)

As for the question at hand I eat everything or at least try it once I love food period especially since I no longer cook that much anymore, hubby does all the cooking I just ask "what time will it be ready?" Most women would love that (and I must admit I do) but the penalty to pay for such a dream is extra 40 lbs of unwanted weight....need to work harderon me abs cant seem to find them :p

September 3rd, 2004, 08:56 AM
shae, whats wrong with zoo's?? i thought that they helped to rebulid the population of endangered animals and took good care of their animals?? (at least thats what i was told on the show "Zoo Diaries" :D )

September 3rd, 2004, 10:01 AM
Don't get me started on the Toronto Zoo!! :(

September 3rd, 2004, 12:32 PM
Just a little side note.. fecal matter can be found on most anything. Its on your toothbrush and even if you try to keep it clean and unexposed, fecal matter is present. Its a fact that fecal matter is present on most everything. Maybe not in large portions but its there. Gross but oh so true... Yuck!

September 3rd, 2004, 12:51 PM
Ya and have you guys seen that thing on how many spiders and bugs we eat a year!!! EWWWWWW :eek:

And the zoo thing, I think they have their high points like helping injured wildlife, aiding in re-populating endangered species, educating children and adults alike, etc. The last time I was at a zoo, on a trip to Cleveland, the zoo was beautiful and the cages were immaculate, but since becoming a cat lover I couldn't help but notice the tracks worn around the cages by the pacing cheetas and tigers...and the look in their eyes! It just about broke my heart. :(

Oh and living here so close to Marineland (at one time the ultimate in poor treatment of their animals and marine life), I have seen many a protest about the treatment of these captive wildlife. And you know, until I saw Free Willy, I had no idea that a killer whale's big fin was actually supposed to be straight!
Now to me they all look sad, with those big floppy depressed fins.... :(

September 3rd, 2004, 01:14 PM
What is wrong with Zoos?

Well, 1st off, it may not be fair to class ALL zoos and wildlife Parks in the same light.
However, there is a lot wrong with zoos. To begin with, it isn't a natural life for them to be kept in cages or small areas. (Some area may look large to our nakes eyes but infact are not in the least) Many have been captured, removed from their families/siblings to be used for our entertainment. Take the zoo in Abbostford BC.....Poor Tina. Thank God she was removed after we were on our way there to protest. She spent her remaining days at the elephant sanctuary in Tennesse. In the zoo, she was lonley, no place to roam,etc.
There are approx 10,000 zoos worldwide with about 3,000 different species in them. Yet, only about 16 successful programs have reintroduced them back to the wild.
I know I wouldn't want to spend my life on a chain or in a cage.....or even in a cleared field ...this isn't natural nor is it fair to the said animal. It's not the life it was born to lead. It needs freedom. For us to say, well, we need zoos for our education is selfish. Get a book and read up on them. Visit a sanctuary instead. They are becoming more frequent. There are bird sanctuaries, wildlife animal sanctuaries......) These animals are kept in habitats very very similar to the natural life they should have been able to lead.Their reasons for being there vary. Many due to injury or illness,or have been transferred from zoos who no longer want them or have come to their senses..etc,etc Whales kept in pools? Do you ever see how their behavior changes? And their dorsal fin? No longer stands tall, but falls to one side. They become dependant on humans for food, etc. Like a domestic dog or cat. To perform tricks for us.... Thats WRONG. Wild Birds who with freedom in their natural habit could soar across the skies, now, confined to a cage? Lions and tigers, cats,bears,etc ....all in cages or enclosed spaces? It's all for personal gain / profit . Thats all.
I could go on and on and on, but I do have to run for now. I , too, loved the zoo as a child, then I thought about it. REALLY thought about it, educated myself and began work at the animal emerg clinic,, I work along with animal right org's. I have very strong opinions when it comes to these topics.

September 3rd, 2004, 01:22 PM
In fact (and seeing we got off the vegie uissue at hand......), but if you want to help take some action, as many have with Iams, how about writing in to these on........

(The Calgary Sun takes letters at: . EDITOR should be
in the subject line.)

Calgary Sun (Alberta, Canada)
September 2, 2004 Thursday Final Edition

NEWS; Pg. 10


The Calgary Zoo should sink any notion of exhibiting Arctic whales or risk
being seen as an animal abuser, the spokeswoman for a wildlife rights
watchdog said yesterday.

But an official with the Calgary Zoo said while planning for the Arctic
Shores project is in its preliminary stages, the possibility of acquiring
narwhals or Beluga whales isn't being ruled out.

"We're looking at all Arctic species," said the zoo's Trish Exton-Parder

"We don't really have a specific policy on (excluding whales)."

A spokeswoman for the group Zoocheck Canada said Exton-Parder's words are
cause for concern, given what they call the dismal life expectancy prospects
facing marine mammals in captivity.

"If they leave open the possibility to do it, that's too much," said Julie
Woodyer, of Zoocheck, a Toronto-based nationally-registered charity.

"In the case of cetaceans (whales and dolphins), captivity kills."

She said Albertans have an acute appreciation for the issue following the
negative experience of holding dolphins at the West Edmonton Mall.

"It's not going to fly in Alberta ... if they don't drop it, they're in for
a giant controversy," said Woodyer, who called the Calgary's Zoo's current
reputation one of the best in Canada.

"But if they go with cetaceans, as far as I'm concerned, they'll be dipping
into the depths."

Animal rights groups in numerous jurisdictions are closely watching the
Calgary Zoo's Arctic Shores plans, she said.

Exton-Parder said Zoocheck is jumping the gun, adding the zoo is far from
deciding which animals would be part of the exhibit they hope to construct
in the next 10 years.

"Nothing has been approved by the board of directors, signed or sealed," she

"As for the species in our care, we're constantly looking at giving them the
best possible environment."

In the meantime, an overhaul of the zoo's elephant quarters is on the
agenda, said Exton-Parder.

September 3rd, 2004, 03:09 PM
Thanks Shae!! WOW!! only 16 out or 10 000 have reintroduced animals back to the wild!!?? :eek: (Thats far from what it says at the beggining at every episode of "Zoo diaries" but then again what can you expect? :D )

September 3rd, 2004, 03:11 PM
You're more than welcome Meggie!

September 3rd, 2004, 08:35 PM
Shae, do you know about the Forestry Farm in Saskatoon? It has always impressed me, as far as zoos go (I'm not sure it is actually considered a zoo or not). It isn't that exciting because the animals are all native to the area and they have enough roam space that sometimes you need binoculars to see some of them. That is, if I'm remembering it correctly -- it's been a few years. Also, I believe all the animals there are rehabilitated. What do you think about this kind of facility?

September 3rd, 2004, 09:28 PM
I haven't heard of that particular place to be honest. If the animals are there for specific reasons.....injury,rescue of sorts, abandonment, etc,etc and there main objective to rehabilitate the animals so that they can live out their natural lives in freedom, I am all for it! I've dealt with animal rescue also, and let me assure you, once you set an animal free after rehabilitating him/her.......... it's such an overwhelming feeling .... mixed of joy, satisfaction, and can be a most emotional experience. If ever you experience this, or anything similar...setting an animal free.......I know you'd feel the same way as I do about keeping wild animal confined.
Sorry I couldn't be much more help .......... hopefully, you are correct about this particular establishment. :)
We need more sanctuaries and rehab. facilities......but, it all costs.

September 4th, 2004, 12:52 AM
As much as I hate the idea of killing animals for food... I've grown up with meat and an amazing Ukrainian cook for a grandmother. I guess it doesn't help that steak is pretty much my favorite food either.

However, my husband had surgery last year that made us dramatically change our diet. Meat isn't good on his system... is what lead to his problem. So, we've been trying a lot more veggies out... and my favorite meat substitute is the Avacado. Those things are so darn filling... and you don't need pasta or rice to "fill you up". Lots of things you can do with an Avacado, and it's packed with protein!

One good side effect, I've lost 15 pounds since we've changed our diet. Animal products is where most of the "bad fat" and cholesterol comes from in our diet... so even if you love meat, it's a good idea to cut it back as much as your palette can permit. If you can cut oils and butter out of your diet as well, even better! Avacado mushed up tastes a lot like butter!

September 4th, 2004, 09:14 AM
Saved from slaughterhouse, lucky cows find sanctuary

Siri Agrell
National Post

Tuesday, June 10, 2003

They come to the lush green fields of a Pennsylvania farm from many directions. But all are desperate to save their hides.
The Lakshmi Cow Sanctuary, a non-profit organization run by Sankar Sastri, is just one of many havens scattered throughout the United States and Canada dedicated to saving cows from certain death.
Some are registered charities, others are privately funded projects of conscience. Their operators are motivated by religious faith, or a horror of the fate awaiting their charges at the slaughterhouse.
All give cows a place to retire far from the meatpacking plant.
A devout Hindu, Mr. Sastri was a university dean before he founded his cow sanctuary at Bangor, Pa.
He believes cows should be regarded as humans' second mothers, and dreamed of showing them the respect he believes they deserve.
He bought the property in September, 2000, and received his first cows from a Buddhist monk who bought the animals from a slaughterhouse in New York.
"He saves animals from the gateway to death," Mr. Sastri said. "And I give them a place to roam and enjoy."
He runs the 17-hectare farm on his savings and university pension, paying US$90 a month to support each of his nine cows. He will soon adopt two more.
Mr. Sastri is not alone in his sympathy for bovine refugees.
Adopt-A-Cow, a farm in Port Royal, Pa., sustained by donations of animal lovers and Hindus, houses 38 cows. A sanctuary in Carriere, Miss., houses 132.
In Moundsville, W.Va., 24 cows are protected on a 64-hectare farm run by William Dove, also known as Balabhadra das. He incorporated the farm as the International Society for Cow Protection.
Fifty-year-old Helga Tacreiter opened a 13-cow sanctuary in Shiloh, N.J., after working part-time on a dairy farm.
She was so horrified at the prospect of the calves there being slaughtered that she worked for two years to buy six of them at US$1,000 a piece.
"I was just blown away by their nature," she said. "Their entire attitude is gracious."
She bought a farm through a "series of miracles," and supports it through the sale of "cowches," life-sized, cow-like floor pillows that sell for as much as US$800.
If her sales hold up, she plans to save even more cows from local slaughterhouses.
"I know it's all token, but for these individual cows it makes a difference," she said.
The owner of a Canadian cow sanctuary feels the same way.
Roger Brinker owns Big Julie's Rescue Ranch, a 70-hectare farm and registered charity in Fort Macleod, Alta.
The 71-year-old takes care of 36 cattle -- including several riddled with tumours that would have been sent to the rendering plant -- as well as six horses and 37 dogs.
Mr. Brinker bought his property in 1991, after he watched his neighbour deliver a calf through a Cesarean section. The male calf was unnaturally large and would have been killed if Mr. Brinker had not offered to take him -- and the entire farm -- off his neighbour's hands.
"They were such gentle creatures it went against my grain to see them killed in such numbers," he said.
He acknowledges such feelings are rare in the agriculturally driven province, but said neighbours respect his love for animals.
"I don't go around pointing fingers, telling people what they're doing is wrong," he said. "But if I can save just a few of these creatures, then that's something."

September 4th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Wonderful story Badger,I've seen and heard of retired people who maybe once had a few animals,but upon retirement quiet by chance and out of love end up with a sanctuary.
When I see these wonderful people and the many animals in their care,I cannot help but wondering what happens to all these animals when the caretaker passes?
To me taking care of unwanted,abused animals would be my ultimate dream,since we are probably moving out into the country in the near future,but at 60,any longterm commitment might not be realistic,,,I worry enough about my 3 cats and what happens to them if hubbie and I are gone :(

Cactus Flower
September 4th, 2004, 11:32 AM
Here is the list that Sneaky linked to. I added the text above the list because I sent it out as an email to a few of my friends that are really into this sort of thing:
Are you really a vegetarian? Or a vegan (one who uses NO animal products whatsoever...eggs/milk/meat/leather/fats etc.)?
You might be surprised to find out what some of those indecipherable ingredients listed on food labels are, even if the product seems to be animal-free. In this day and age, it would be a difficult feat, indeed, to avoid using any part of an animal in our daily lives:
__________________________________________________ ____________

Hidden Animal Ingredients

Albumin - The protein component of egg whites. Albumin is also found in animal blood, milk, plants, and seeds. - Used to thicken or add texture to processed foods.

Anchovies - Small, silvery fish of herring family.- Used in Worcestershire sauce, Caesar salad dressing, pizza topping, Greek salads.

Carmine (carmine, cochineal, or carminic acid) - Red coloring made from a ground-up insect.- Used in bottled juices, colored pasta, some candies, frozen pops, "natural" cosmetics.

Calcium stearate - Mineral typically derived from cows or hogs - Used in garlic salt, vanilla, meat tenderizers, salad-dressing mixes.

Capric acid (decanoic acid) - Animal fats - Added to ice cream, candy, baked goods, chewing gum, liquor and often not specified on ingredients lists.

Casein (caseinate) - A milk protein. It coagulates with the addition of rennin (see rennin below) and is the foundation of cheese.- An additive in dairy products such as cheese, cream cheese, cottage cheese, and sour cream. Also used in adhesives, paints, and plastics.

Clarifying agent - Derived from any number of animal sources.- Used to filter wine, vinegar, beer, fruit juice, soft drinks.

Gelatin - Protein from bones, cartilage, tendons, and skin of animals, Much of the commercial gelatin is a by-product of pig skin. - Used in marshmallows, yogurt, frosted cereals, gelatin-containing desserts (Jello), molded salads.

Glucose (dextrose) -Fruits or animal tissues and fluids.- Used in baked goods, soft drinks, candies, frosting.

Glycerides (mono-, di-, and triglycerides) - Glycerol from animal fats or plants. - Used in processed foods, cosmetics, perfumes, lotions, inks, glues, automobile antifreeze. Used as emulsifier.

Isinglass Gelatin - from air bladder of sturgeon and other freshwater fish.- Used to clarify alcoholic beverages and in some jellied desserts. Rarely used now.

Lactic acid - Acid formed by bacteria acting on the milk sugar lactose. Imparts a tart flavor.- Used in cheese, yogurt, pickles, olives, sauerkraut, candy, frozen desserts, chewing gum, fruit preserves, dyeing and textile printing.

Lactose (saccharum lactin) - D-lactose Milk sugar - Culture medium for souring milk and in processed foods such as baby formulas, candies and other sweets, medicinal diuretics, and laxatives.

Lactylic stearate - Salt of stearic acid (see stearic acid below).- Used as a dough conditioner.

Lanolin -Waxy fat from sheep's wool.- Used in chewing gum, ointments, cosmetics, waterproof coatings.

Lard - Rendered and clarified pork fat. Often fat from abdomens of pigs or the fat around the animal's kidneys- Used in baked goods.

Lecithin Phospholipids - From animal tissues, plants, lentils, and egg yolks, used to preserve, emulsify, and moisturize food. - Used in cereal, candy, chocolate, baked goods, margarine, vegetable oil sprays, cosmetics, and ink.

Lutein - Deep yellow coloring from marigolds or egg yolks.- Used in commercial food coloring.

Myristic acid (tetradecanoic acid) - Animal fats.- Used in chocolate, ice cream, candy, jelled desserts, baked goods.

Natural flavorings - Unspecified, - Could be from meat or other animal products Processed and packaged foods.

Oleic acid (oleinic acid) - Animal tallow (see tallow below) - Used in synthetic butter, cheese, vegetable fats and oils, spice flavoring for baked goods, candy, ice cream, beverages, condiments, soaps, cosmetics.

Palmatic acid - Animal or vegetable fats - Used in baked goods, butter and cheese flavoring.

Pancreatin (pancreatic extract) - Cows or hogs- Used in digestive aids.

Pepsin- Enzyme from pigs' stomachs - With rennet to make cheese.

Propolis Resinous- cement collected by bees - Food supplement and ingredient in "natural" toothpaste.

Rennin (Rennet) -A coagulating enzyme obtained from a young animal's stomach, usually a calf's stomach - Rennin is used to curdle milk in foods such as cheese and junket (a soft pudding like dessert).

Royal jelly- Substance produced by glands of bees - Used in "Natural foods" and nutrient supplements.

Sodium stearoyl lactylate- May be derived from cows, hogs, animal milk, or vegetable-mineral sources.- Used in cake, pudding, or pancake mixes, baked goods, margarine.

Stearic acid (octadecenoic acid)- Tallow, other animal fats and oils- Used in vanilla flavoring, chewing gum, baked goods, beverages, candy, soaps, ointments, candles, cosmetics, suppositories and pill coatings.

Suet- Hard white fat around kidneys and loins of animals - Used in margarine, mincemeat, pastries, bird feed, tallow.

Tallow- Solid fat of sheep and cattle separated from the membranous tissues- Used in waxed paper, margarine, soaps, crayons, candles, rubber, cosmetics.

Vitamin A (A1, retinol) - Vitamin obtained from vegetables, egg yolks, or fish liver oil.- Used in vitamin supplements, fortification of foods, "natural" cosmetics.

Vitamin B12 - Vitamin produced by microorganisms and found in all animal products; synthetic form (cyanocobalamin or cobalamin on labels) is vegan- Used in supplements or fortified foods.

Vitamin D (D1, D2, D3) - D1 is produced by humans upon exposure to sunlight; D2 (ergocalciferol) is made from plants or yeast, D3 (cholecalciferol comes from fish liver oils or lanolin Supplements or fortified foods.

Whey- Watery liquid that separates from the solids (curds) of milks in cheese-making.- Used in crackers, breads, cakes, processed foods in cheese-making.

Source: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Being Vegetarian by Suzanne Havala, M.S., R.D., F.A.D.A., Food Lover's Companion by Sharon Tyler Herbst, The Vegan Sourcebook by Joanne Stepaniak, M.S.Ed.
__________________________________________________ ______________

One of my (former vegetarian) friends wrote back with a point that I thought was interesting. He said: "... then I realized all organisms on this earth live off other organisms, so it’s the circle of life "

What do you all think of that?
That point really struck me, that all organisms live off of other organisms.

He's a chemist, by the way, and explained that many of the ingredients on that list can be produced chemically, in a labratory, but wonders if companies pay the extra cost it takes to do so.

Your thoughts?

September 4th, 2004, 11:50 AM
One of my (former vegetarian) friends wrote back with a point that I thought was interesting. He said: "... then I realized all organisms on this earth live off other organisms, so it’s the circle of life ". What do you all think of that? That point really struck me, that all organisms live off of other organisms. He's a chemist, by the way, and explained that many of the ingredients on that list can be produced chemically, in a labratory, but wonders if companies pay the extra cost it takes to do so. Your thoughts?
I think your friend has a point. I think it is very admirable for all of you to stick to your values and do what you feel is right by the animals we share this planet with. I am certainly not that noble! But in discussing this thread with my sister, she also pointed out the "circle of life". She noted that human beings are and have always been omnivores - that's why we have the tooth structure that we do.

September 4th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Laura, You believe animals were put on this earth for us to eat???? Many think that.......This really gets me going. Have you read the bible fully? I have. Now keep in mind, the bible is in fact actually written by man....words he perceived from God. Many verses in the bible can be taken in several forms of definition. It even says in the bible that one day...the prophecies believe the earth will be once again vegetarian. The Lion can lay down in peace with lamb once again. I ecan spend hours posting verses and let you know where to find them in the bible. If this were true, animal were for human consumption, why would God give them,pain,sadness, etc??? Wouldnt he create them without souls and feelings then. So, you're saying that he's willingly inflicting torture on animals that HE himself created and loved? That's sick, doesn't that make him a 'Cruel" GOD? I dont know about your God, but I dont think God is cruel. Sorry.....,the bible and animal issues are a sensitive subject with me. Many of my speeches have included arguments from the bible, although I would never preach but when its flung in my face, I fling back.... :o Glad you treated your cows so well Laura....howver, that isnt the way most are treated in this day and age. After a cows reached the age where she's not going to produce.....let me assure you they are not all buried under a nice oak tree like your gal. (I'm glad you did that btw!....thoughtful) This is part of the reason I'm thinking I dont belong here ......I'm an active ARA.....This site was made for "pet owners, not ARA's per say......or there would be nothing but vegetarians in here and certainly not discussing so callled ethical breeders (I dont believe there are any....can't be with so many animals on death row) or defending farming. I'm not here to argue with you.....A wonderful book is called, The Pig Who Sang to the Moon by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson. Its about the lives farm animals live. Really a fantastic read.
Think about it: If you were made pregnant against your will and then your child was taken from you and served for dinner the next night, would you be happy? If you think a cow never gives a second thought to her missing calf, ask any farmer how long a newborn calf and her mother call for each other. One farmer told me that as long as they can see each other, they will call until they are hoarse, indefinately.
This book points out facts that you don't consider in everyday life until they pointed out to you. This book is perfect not just for ARA's but even more so for those who are not! Carnivores per say, should ALL read this book!
I have visited and interviewed farmers.......then visited a farm animal sanctuary. OMG, what a totally different life they lead.....and even their behavior is such a drastic's amazing.
I suppose I should end my part in this thread..........unless there are like minded people that decide to post. Like I say, I'm not here to argue with members of this forum. I wont allow it in the cafe after all. :)
Have a good day.

September 4th, 2004, 12:47 PM
He's a chemist, by the way, and explained that many of the ingredients on that list can be produced chemically, in a labratory, but wonders if companies pay the extra cost it takes to do so.

I highly doubt any companies would spend the extra to do that, they are in it only for money... why would they spend more?

It is definitely a circle of life. And even though I am considering going veg, I am glad that the whole world would never do so, because if that's the case the world would be over-run by animals eventually, if you think about it.

September 4th, 2004, 01:09 PM
If people stopped eating animals altogether, the farming / breeding industry would be at a halt and a thing of the past. Eventually, I would think the animals would die off as they would not be used as baby-making machines and used as food any longer.

September 4th, 2004, 01:12 PM
I am sure they would make plenty of babies on their own (after all, they are animals:)), way more than the ones that die off.

September 4th, 2004, 01:17 PM
I hope you don't think I'm judgng anyone personally for eating meat. I'm not......but I had to respond a couple threads ago to a couple comments. This is what I do in my everyday life. I work for the animals. (as silly as that sounds) I've met many wonderful people here......and a few that are now even on my List to contact for demonstrations. (thumbs up !))
I just dont want you tothink I'm a horrible person for my comments, its what I believe, and is the way I live my life. In fact, the majority of my family are meat eaters, (although, my sister is going veg now and my aunt and uncle are bothvegan now... :D ) My family wonders what happened, where did I come from? Baby switch maybe? *L*
I'll still post now and then in here......but I think I'll stick to the animal rights cafe forum for awhile maybe. Will still peek in though and post every so often *s* Wondering, should I delete my photo in the other thread....*L* I think I better *LOL* :)

Cactus Flower
September 4th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Shae, I like you, and I feel comfortable sharing my thoughts with you. That said, here they are:

You keep reiterating that you feel you might not "belong" on this board, emphasizing your A.R.A status. Each time I read that, I have to fight feeling insulted. Although you explain yourself, it still feels a bit "holier than thou" to me. Perhaps this is just a case of so much being lost in "text alone", but does anyone else have this reaction to those comments? Please tell me if I am the only one who feels this way.

I choose not to respond to the biblical references, as scripture can be interpreted so many different ways, and I fear this thread will turn into a theological debate. I am non-Christian (not ANTI-Christian), but am well-read when it comes to the Bible. I respect your definition of those verses, but humbly refrain from sharing my own.

I feel the need to point out that there are still some areas on this planet where not eating meat would equal starvation. I happened to have lived in one such area, the Navajo Indian reservation here. This is an extremely poor region where the diet consists of mutton (sheep) and fry bread (flour, salt, lard). The Traditional family that adopted me when I first moved onto the reservation had only a small handful of sheep to feed a family of six. After I was Traditionally adopted, they began making supper for celebration. I asked someone what they were cooking, and was told it was mutton. I had been a vegetarian since childhood. I responded "Oh, I couldn't eat that!". A friend whispered: "You'd better, they killed that sheep for you, and they only have four to last until spring". It was, in their culture, a HUGE honor for them to have killed that sheep to celebrate my coming into the family. Considering how poor they were, it meant even more to me. I ate the mutton (and was full for a month, I might add- LOL- my body didn't know what to do with it). That sheep was prayed over, thanking the Creator for it's life, thanking IT for it's life- and every single part of the sheep is used for various purposes. If you took mutton out of the Navajo diet, these people would have only bags of flour to "live" on. Try planting a garden in the middle of the desert.
I have great respect for those who are ABLE to sustain themselves on a vegetarian diet, and choose to do so for the animals' sake, no matter how many lists there are pointing to animal content, etc. You are doing what you can and as much as you can, realistically, to hold yourself to your own ideals.
But there are places where this is just not possible, or even practical.

September 4th, 2004, 01:23 PM
I personally don't think you are judging anyone, I have never gotten that from any of your posts. As of now I do eat meat but am becoming more and more disgusted with it every day. So while I may go veg... it isn't for the same reason you did or the main reason someone would go veg.
I hope no one is going to judge each others choices for whatever reason... you gotta do what you gotta do.

September 4th, 2004, 01:42 PM
You are not the only one who feels that way, CF. If someone doesn't feel comfortable here, aside from commenting on the topics, they shouldn't be here. I like you also Shae, don't get me wrong, but you are the one who is questioning your acceptance. I should've added this to my previous post after saying I didn't think you were judging people, it seems like you are judging yourself.

September 4th, 2004, 02:06 PM
Not in the least, would I judge myself and my convictions. What I am questioning, is poting in this particular forum with my convictions and offending other members. I can see certain people are taking offence and that wasn't my intention. As for mentioning that I am ARA.....well, I am. I'm not rubbing noses in it or other....I'm simply stating this fact so others may better understand my beliefs. On the flip side, I cringe everytime ppl tell me they eat meat. Do I question if there are rubbing that in my face deliberatley? I admit to cringing also,when I see a breeder recommended in a post or otherwise.These are a couple of things that I am against That is why I question if I should continue to post or leave. Yet, we have one thing in common, we all love and cherish our animal companions. Soooooo, with that being said......I'm off to work.