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CRF cat suddenly pooped outside the box

Mia101
March 26th, 2010, 04:58 PM
She's been on a new renal diet for 3-4 days, seems to like it, has been voiding correctly in the box - suddenly, poop on the mat in the kitchen!

The only time she has done something similar is when I changed her litter. There are no mats in the bathroom anymore as all the washing wore them out.

Even then she didn't go in the kitchen. She doesn't even ever go, as in walk, in the kitchen.

Her food and water is in the dining room and I literally never see her go in the kitchen for any reason, much less to poop.

The mat suggests further that it was deliberate. She has a message but I don't have the poop decoder ring!

sugarcatmom
March 26th, 2010, 08:30 PM
What is the renal diet that she's on?

Can you tell if her poop was unusually dry and hard? How is her hydration? Frequently when cats are constipated, they'll poop somewhere besides the litter box because a) they associate the box with pain, b) they try to poop in the box, but can't get it all the way out until later when they're somewhere else.

Constipation would be my first guess in this situation.

Mia101
March 26th, 2010, 09:33 PM
Purina, which I know people will bash, but the info out there is outdated. They are current on the research that too little protein is bad and elevated it in their rx food. They are the ones who DO most of the research. It's also the lowest in phosphorous to be found.

Doing my own thing caused her levels to triple in 6 month, so im not deviating from what the vet (who is up on nutrition too) says anymore.

Her last few poos looked a little dry, but it's hard to tell because she goes while I sleep so they have a chance to dry before I see them.

She's had regular sized poo every day.

Mia101
March 26th, 2010, 09:35 PM
oh, and hydration is good.

growler~GateKeeper
March 27th, 2010, 12:43 AM
Could be a touch of constipation due to the change in food upsetting the normal balance in her tummy.


Does she have just 1 litterbox? Was the box clean when she had to poop or had she peed in there already?

A good rule of thumb for all kitties, and I think especially ones with compromised kidneys, is 1 box per cat plus 1. So if you have 1 cat you have 2 boxes, 2 cats you have 3 boxes. Because of the extra amount of water consumed and subsequently peed out often times my CRF girl will have used both her boxes or 1 twice while I'm at work, so if your girl had peed in the box already she might not have wanted to stand in it while attempted to poop.

sugarcatmom
March 27th, 2010, 01:21 AM
Purina, which I know people will bash, but the info out there is outdated. They are current on the research that too little protein is bad and elevated it in their rx food. They are the ones who DO most of the research. It's also the lowest in phosphorous to be found.

Is it Purina NF? Canned or dry?

Mia101
March 27th, 2010, 11:41 PM
Is it Purina NF? Canned or dry?

Yes - she likes the dry, but not the canned.

Good thoughts in your other post. I don't get though why constipation would cause pooping on the kitchen rug!

She has never, in 18 years, pooped anywhere but her box (except for during thee 'litter war').

I really, really like 'world's best' and she must really, really like clay :p

sugarcatmom
March 28th, 2010, 12:15 AM
I know you're not going to want to hear what I have to say. Gonna say it anyway :D.

Yes - she likes the dry, but not the canned.

Are these the ingredients on the bag of food you have? (it's what Purina has on their website, so if what you have is different, let me know):

Brewers rice, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal,soybean meal, animal fat preserved with mixedtocopherols (form of Vitamin E), animal digest, fish meal,....

Notice there is no meat in this food. None. I'd love Purina to explain to me how this much rice, corn and soy is in any way beneficial to an obligate carnivore. The carbs in this food are a whopping 45% of calories! And the protein is all plant-based, which is a no-no for cats with renal insufficiency. You want quality protein, which means muscle meat. A cow might do fine on NF, a cat won't, whether they have CRF or not. If these truly are the ingredients in the bag of NF you bought, I guarantee it will cause constipation, and worse. At the very least, please please start giving your kitty subQ fluids. Although it would be better if she ate wet food, ANY wet food, if you're going to give her dry than she should absolutely be getting fluids.

Mia101
March 28th, 2010, 01:04 AM
Any wet food, regardless of phosphorous level?

No, I tried following the advice here and what I got was BUN levels tripled in 6 months.

A cat at the end of her life - it doesn't really matter so much about some of those ingredients. She's not going to eat them long enough to matter.

All that matters to me is lowest phosphorous levels, omegas, and vit. b, I think it is, and whatever the right balance is of other stuff.

I'm giving this food a chance because the vet is quite insistent. It's got the lowest phosphorous, .38.

I'll be able to see how she's doing in a month.

Purina is the company that does all the research everyone uses - how could their food be the wrong one?

I don't like the looks of the ingredients either, but I'm going by the advice of my vet right now.

PS I don't buy it at her clinic b/c it's too far. That is not why she chose it.

She said K/D is next in line and Royal Canin after that.

Mia101
March 28th, 2010, 01:10 AM
meat protein produces nitrogenous waste products. That is why there is not much in there.

I didn't mean to be so harsh in my last post, and obviously I respect the posters here or I wouldn't be back with questions.

But I think y'all need to be careful about telling people not to listen to their vets unless they are a vet or a cat nutritionist who has studied renal issues specifically.

Mia101
March 28th, 2010, 03:15 AM
I still have some wellness cans. I can't find though the phos. count on those.

sugarcatmom
March 28th, 2010, 01:51 PM
Any wet food, regardless of phosphorous level?

Absolutely! You can add phosphorus binders to the food. It's NOT about the protein. Cats need protein!!!!! At all stages of their life, but especially when their health isn't optimal, otherwise they start to catabolize their own muscle tissue. http://www.felineoutreach.org/Education/Kidney.html

It was believed that low-protein diets might be beneficial for cats with CRF, but studies indicate that low protein diets actually elevate Creatinine levels and exacerbate the anemia and muscle wastage commonly secondary to renal issues. Feeding a diet containing a high quality protein can improve the quality of life for cats with CRF. High quality proteins are easily digestible proteins such as poultry or rabbit muscle and organ meat. Grains and grain glutens are not easily digestible, and it may be desirable to avoid them.

No, I tried following the advice here and what I got was BUN levels tripled in 6 months.

What were you feeding? There is more to CRF than just the BUN. Plus, you don't know how this disease would have progressed had you been feeding
one of the poor quality prescription diets instead. Could very well have been an even faster decline.

All that matters to me is lowest phosphorous levels, omegas, and vit. b, I think it is, and whatever the right balance is of other stuff.

These can all be managed without resorting to a prescription diet. The quality of the omegas in NF is very poor (if they're even viable by the time they get ingested, since they very easily oxidize). Plus, the fish meal is likely preserved with ethoxyquin, but Purina doesn't have to list that little tidbit on the bag because they weren't the ones to actually add it. Such is the sleaze of pet food manufacturers.

I'm giving this food a chance because the vet is quite insistent.

That tells me all I need to know about how much your vet understands feline nutrition. :rolleyes:


Purina is the company that does all the research everyone uses - how could their food be the wrong one?

First, you have to understand the nature of all this so-called "research". They very specifically set up their experiments to make their food look good. There is no independent oversight to these experiments and they can pretty much say whatever they want, brushing results that don't fit their agenda under the rug. If you don't believe me, read a book called Not Fit for a Dog: The Truth About Manufactured Pet Food (http://www.amazon.ca/Not-Fit-Dog-Truth-Manufactured/dp/1884956831). It was written by 3 vets. One of whom used to work for both Hill's and Purina. In case that makes it more relevant for you.


But I think y'all need to be careful about telling people not to listen to their vets unless they are a vet or a cat nutritionist who has studied renal issues specifically.

You're putting far too much faith in the whole vet and pet food manufacturer relationship. I'm not going to repeat the reams of info related to this subject but I do urge you to read some of the following links:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59134&highlight=nutrition
http://catnutrition.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/dry-food-and-vets/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14708361
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmnews/22-1/vmnews22-1p07.pdf
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1375
http://www.mousabilities.com/nutrition/rebuttal.html

I still have some wellness cans. I can't find though the phos. count on those.

Phosphorus levels for various Wellness flavours: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=733931&highlight=wellness+phosphorus#post733931

Mia101
March 28th, 2010, 05:05 PM
I don't see how it makes sense to give phosphorous and then binders. Everywhere I read says it's best to control with diet. There are downsides to binders, so that doesn't make sense.

The majority of links I am directed to for low phosphorous foods are out of date, it's pretty hard to find new info.

Script diets have raised the protein back up, so that's not an argument against them anymore.

At the least, people are continuing to scare people away from rx food saying the protein is too low when it is not anymore.

I think the ingredients look like **** too. But I'm giving it a month - that is when her next check-up is.

My vet did say if I can find a food with even less phosphorous, to feed that. So she is not stuck on the script foods, she just wants the lowest phosphorous.

growler~GateKeeper
March 28th, 2010, 09:18 PM
Any wet food, regardless of phosphorous level?

Yes to a certain extent providing the ingredients are high quality including quality muscle meat, after that a phos binder is used.

What was the blood phosphorous level on the latest test?

Did the vet do a urinalysis yet?


No, I tried following the advice here and what I got was BUN levels tripled in 6 months.

http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm#treat_the_cat
This leads us to the mantra of the Feline CRF Information list: "treat the cat, not the numbers". Of course, it is still important to do what you can to improve the bloodwork and to treat whatever issues arise, because this will both make your cat more comfortable and increase his/her chances of survival. This mantra is simply a way of pointing out that many cats do astonishingly well despite their bloodwork results being poor. There are no guarantees and it is a fine line to tread, but it is usually worth trying treatments, although you must also consider your cat's temperament when deciding how much to fight the CRF.


A cat at the end of her life - it doesn't really matter so much about some of those ingredients. She's not going to eat them long enough to matter.

I would hope 18 isn't "the end of life" for a cat, quality of life is important as well. High quality muscle meats, no grains, no fillers etc can improve muscle mass & joints, improve digestive health all making the cat feel good & the immune system fuctioning better.

I'm giving this food a chance because the vet is quite insistent. It's got the lowest phosphorous, .38.

Is that the amount listed on the bag/can? What is the moisture level listed? Unless that is the dry matter value you can't accurately compare that number to others as the moisture level in food vary.

Why is your vet so insistant on feed this food but leaving the far more medically important decision of fluid therapy up to you?

Purina is the company that does all the research everyone uses

Where did this info come from? Who said Purina is doing the research everyone uses?

I still have some wellness cans. I can't find though the phos. count on those.

Which varieties do you have?

Wellness does have a few different flavours in the low end phosphorus range: Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Beef & Salmon are all kidney cat approved by my CRF grrl :D

I don't see how it makes sense to give phosphorous and then binders. Everywhere I read says it's best to control with diet. There are downsides to binders, so that doesn't make sense.

The majority of links I am directed to for low phosphorous foods are out of date, it's pretty hard to find new info.

Script diets have raised the protein back up, so that's not an argument against them anymore.

At the least, people are continuing to scare people away from rx food saying the protein is too low when it is not anymore.

I think the ingredients look like **** too. But I'm giving it a month - that is when her next check-up is.

My vet did say if I can find a food with even less phosphorous, to feed that. So she is not stuck on the script foods, she just wants the lowest phosphorous.

Yes treating with diet is best but when neccessary phos binders are a valuable addition as they bind to the phos in the food & prevent it's absorption.

What downsides? These can be compensated for if the pros outweigh the cons

The mint flavour can be overcome by using a generic tasteless/odourless binder.

The calcium based binders can in some cases cause too much blood calcuim and may not be as effective as an aluminum binder, and aluminium toxicity is only a concern for human dialysis patients.

I steer people away from the rx foods because of the ingredients as well as the well publicized toxic recall a couple of years ago. Where is the quality meat protein in NF?


So what are the treatment protocols your vet had currently in place aside from eat low phos food?

sugarcatmom
March 28th, 2010, 09:44 PM
I don't see how it makes sense to give phosphorous and then binders. Everywhere I read says it's best to control with diet. There are downsides to binders, so that doesn't make sense.

There are even more downsides to feeding a lousy food.

Script diets have raised the protein back up, so that's not an argument against them anymore.

Raised them to what?

At the least, people are continuing to scare people away from rx food saying the protein is too low when it is not anymore.

What info do you have on these revised protein levels? And lets take a look again at the source of that protein. Poor quality grains. How is this good for a cat, designed to eat meat?

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 12:04 AM
If you don't know the protein amount, how can you say it's not enough?

'Binders are used IF NECESSARY'. Doesn't make sense to MAKE it necessary by feeding too much phosphorous.

I don't like the ingredients of NF anymore than y'all but I don't have the luxury of farting around about food right now. She's on the cusp of stage 4.

I'm giving this a chance because my vet believes that the lowest phosphorous food is the priority right now.

She is not dehydrated, so the issue of fluids has been put off until next month, when we check to see if the food is helping.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 12:15 AM
I already said that meat (to my understanding) produces a waste material that Purina is wanting to avoid. better to get alternate protein sources than produce more waste the kidneys can't handle.

I do not think that an 18 year old cat with kidney disease is going to live long enough for that to matter much.

Not to mention, there are tons of cats who live to ripe old ages eating plant based protein, so that shows they are adaptable like most creatures.

Sorry but you guys go a little too far with the insistence on canned food at any cost and some other things.

Research does not support that feeding high phosphorous foods and then using binders and then using things to mitigate binders is better than feeding low phosphorus dry. Especially with a good drinker. I'd like to see proof, not supposition, that cats cannot drink enough.

I AM going to feed canned food that is low in phosphorous when I can find some that I know is and that she likes.

I know Growler said some varieties of wellness are, but I can't find the post with the actual values. Our idea of what is low enough differs.

Below .5 is what my research says. For 6 months I fed with 1.0 or slightly higher due to being told on here that is the target. Where did that come from?

In my reading I found that 1.0 being alright is only if the cat will not eat anything below .5, and only in early stages.

Again, unless you are a vet or a nutritionist who specializes in renal disease, I do not think you should state your opinions so forcefully based on internet research.

It's misleading to people who come here knowing nothing and believe you because you are so emphatic and cite a couple of studies.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 12:19 AM
protein 25%. moisture 11%

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 12:59 AM
I am not financially able to go to extreme measures to keep her alive, unfortunately.

The cost of food is fine, I'll eat cheaper foods myself before not getting what I think at the time is best for her.

But all the extra bloodwork alone is going to make me go into debt. I can afford maybe twice to have IV's, but if it gets into all these meds and regular fluids, I'm simply going to run out of money and credit.

I'm going to march on with whatever the vet suggests until I have only $100 to let her go humanely.

I HATE that, but it's the sad, sad reality of being poor.

I sacrifice quite a bit of things most consider necessities so that my two pets have premium food, every vet visit they need, the heartworm, other parasite, and flea protection, toys, bones, etc. and pet insurance on the dog.



But there is a point where there is nothing left to give up.

growler~GateKeeper
March 29th, 2010, 03:32 AM
'Binders are used IF NECESSARY'. Doesn't make sense to MAKE it necessary by feeding too much phosphorous

Depending on blood phosphorus numbers, she may need a phos binder even on the vet rx food.

She is not dehydrated, so the issue of fluids has been put off until next month, when we check to see if the food is helping.

Cats at stage 4 renal failure should be on fluid therapy. Fluid therapy is not just to combat dehydration but also will reduce the BUN & Creatinine numbers as it flushes these toxins from the blood & kidneys.

http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm#how_bad_numbers

I have found that most conventional vets are not pro-active enough with renal disease, instead opting the wait & see approach.

Has your vet mentioned any of the Vetoquinol supplements? http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/pages/pro_renal.html


I already said that meat (to my understanding) produces a waste material that Purina is wanting to avoid. better to get alternate protein sources than produce more waste the kidneys can't handle.

Cats cannot effciently digest vegetable based proteins the rate is 50-72% whereas meat & eggs is 75-98%. Most of the vegetable matter is removed as waste material and not absorbed.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=2615&SourceID=
Older animals tend to require a higher dietary protein level in general when compared to their younger counterparts. Protein also adds palatability to the food so that if we try to restrict protein too much we may end up with a pet who will not eat at all.

http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm
There are varying opinions in the veterinary community as to whether low protein food is effective in the management of feline CRF. Some experts believe that any benefit from eating low protein food may be from the lower content of phosphorous contained in the food rather than the low protein itself. Furthermore, some believe that a low protein diet contributes to weakness and muscle wasting, two very common symptoms in CRF cats.


I do not think that an 18 year old cat with kidney disease is going to live long enough for that to matter much.

I'm doing what I can to help my nearly 19 year old CRF cat live for several more quality years.

Sorry but you guys go a little too far with the insistence on canned food at any cost and some other things.

What does a feral cat eat? Mice, birds, lizards and bugs not dried corn, dry rice and wheat stalks. Basic porportion of a mouse is roughly 68% water, compare that to the 8-11% in dry food, canned food is 75-78%.

Research does not support that feeding high phosphorous foods and then using binders and then using things to mitigate binders is better than feeding low phosphorus dry. Especially with a good drinker. I'd like to see proof, not supposition, that cats cannot drink enough.

From Royal Canin http://www.petngarden.com/cats/cats12.php

The main water loss is urinary loss. With a dryfood, about half of the water consumed is eliminated through this way, 2/3 with canned food.

The cat have a reputation to be a "small drinker". It is because he is able to concentrate his urine very much (average density: 1045 compared to 1015 in dog and man). But if the concentration of the urine is too high, there is a higher risk of crystals precipitation and urinary stones formation. Then, the cat must be encouraged to drink.

http://cats.about.com/od/waterforcats/f/waterneeds.htm
Water Needs Depends on Diet
Cats' body tissues consist of about 67% water. Coincidentally, that is approximately the percentage of water in the prey they catch and eat in the wild. In contrast, dry cat food contains around 10% water, and canned cat food around 78%. Therefore, a cat on an all-dry food diet would obviously require more supplemental drinking water than a cat on an exclusive raw or canned food diet. Likewise, a cat on a combination of dry and canned cat food also needs more drinking water


I AM going to feed canned food that is low in phosphorous when I can find some that I know is and that she likes.

I know Growler said some varieties of wellness are, but I can't find the post with the actual values. Our idea of what is low enough differs.

Below .5 is what my research says. For 6 months I fed with 1.0 or slightly higher due to being told on here that is the target. Where did that come from?

In my reading I found that 1.0 being alright is only if the cat will not eat anything below .5, and only in early stages.

Purina NF canned dry matter protein is 30% dry matter phos is .78% with 77% moisture, it is likely to taste very close to the dry you are feeding her.

As close to or below 1% dry matter was recommended by my previous conventional vet as most rx canned foods are around .5-1% dry matter phos. The 1% dm phos value is where the rx foods tend to top out at.

http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm#refusal_prescription_food
Whichever you feed, ideally, as mentioned by Dr Scott Brown in Management of feline chronic renal failure (1998) Waltham Focus 8 (3), you want your cat to eat food with less than 0.5% but you also need your cat to eat, so if necessary you may have to have a less ambitious goal, at least to start with, of less than 1% phosphorus
And if your cat will eat that slightly higher phos food in later stages you add a phos binder if necessary. So many people have trouble getting their CRF cats to eat anything at all, so if you have to feed a higher phos w/a binder then that's what you do.

I would rather feed a slightly higher phos level food with quality ingredients than a lower phos food with lower quality ingredients.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=485203#post485203

Again, unless you are a vet or a nutritionist who specializes in renal disease, I do not think you should state your opinions so forcefully based on internet research.

It's misleading to people who come here knowing nothing and believe you because you are so emphatic and cite a couple of studies.

Vets do not know all there is to know about nutrition. My cat was on a rx "sensitivity" diet because the vet at the time said her soft poop was because she had a "sensitive stomach" instead of finding out what she was reacting to. Guess what food was recalled for toxic ingredients? yup that very rx food. Once I switched her to a holistic high quality canned food her poop issues cleared up.

I have a CRF cat, I have been living with/researching this disease since April 2007. Before/at the time my grrl was eating a RC prescription vet food that was recalled due to toxic melamine that was confirmed by RC to have caused her CRF. My grrl has been raw fed since Dec 2007, she is on fluid therapy & renal support supplements and her numbers are better than your cats' are :shrug:.

My opinions are not just based on internet research I'm living it. :)


protein 25%. moisture 11%

dry matter protein of this dry food is 28% the minimum requirement for healthy adult cats is 26% http://maxshouse.com/nutrition/aafco_cat_food_nutrient_profiles.htm

Good luck with your cat :goodvibes:

sugarcatmom
March 29th, 2010, 08:28 AM
If you don't know the protein amount, how can you say it's not enough?

Ah, but I do know the protein amount. And I know what cats should be getting instead.

She's on the cusp of stage 4.

Then there is no way that she isn't dehydrated, and you should be giving fluids if you're going to insist on feeding her a moisture-depleting dry diet.

Not to mention, there are tons of cats who live to ripe old ages eating plant based protein, so that shows they are adaptable like most creatures.

And there are tons that don't. Just like there are people that smoke but live to a ripe old age. Doesn't mean that's what we should all do. There is also a huge difference between surviving and thriving.

Sorry but you guys go a little too far with the insistence on canned food at any cost and some other things.

And your insistence on feeding kibble is costing the well-being of your cat.

I'd like to see proof, not supposition, that cats cannot drink enough.

From all of my "internet research" :rolleyes:: http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

The cat has evolved to obtain her water requirements almost entirely on the moisture content in her food - inherited from her desert-dwelling ancestors. Cats can live for long periods without drinking water when receiving food containing 67-73% water but become dehydrated when the water content of the food is 63% or less. Canned diets contain enough water that cats consuming them rarely need to drink. Daily water needs, in milliliters, often are "guesstimated" as equal to the metabolizable energy requirement in kilocalories or approximately 60 ml/kg. Once the diet is consumed, oxidation of nutrients produces an additional 10 to 13 grams of water for each 100 kcal of metabolizable energy. Thus a 4 kg cat consuming a 240 kcal canned diet containing 78% moisture will consume 237 ml or 98% of its daily water need directly from the diet. Thus the cat needs to drink less than 1 oz. of additional water per day whereas a cat consuming a 240 kcal dry diet needs to drink over 7 oz. of water per day. This can be difficult because cats are not naturally big drinkers. Feeding a canned diet containing 78% moisture virtually guarantees homeostatic control of water balance in the cat.

The water content of the commercial foods commonly fed to cats varies from 8% in dry foods to over 75% in canned foods; thus the amount of drinking water required is affected substantially by the water content of the food. When fed canned food (80% moisture) with access to drinking water, cats obtain over 90% of their total water intake from the diet, whereas on dry food, 96% of the total water intake is obtained by drinking. The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases when cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter intake ratio when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on canned foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1. Thus for any given dry matter intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on dry foods. (National Research Council [National Academy of Science] Nutrient Requirements of Cats).
Diet moisture content is related to the observation that cats fed dry food drink more than six times more water than cats fed canned food but that much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food. The urine concentration of all solutes, including potentially calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume.

Cats increase voluntary water intake when fed dry food but not in sufficient amounts to fully compensate for the lower moisture content of the food. In a recent study, cats consuming a diet containing 10% moisture with free access to drinking water had an average daily urine volume of 63 milliliters (ml). This volume increased to 112 ml/day when fed a canned diet with a moisture content of 75%. Urine specific gravity was also higher in cats that were fed the low-moisture food. Decreased urine volume may be an important risk factor for the development of urolithiasis in cats. Diets that cause a decrease in total fluid turnover can result in decreased urine volume and increased urine concentration, both of which may contribute to urinary tract disease in cats. Several studies have shown that dry cat foods contribute to decreased fluid intake and urine volume.

Homeostatic control of water balance in cats differs in some important respects from that of dogs Cats make less precise and rapid compensatory changes in voluntary water intake than dogs in response to changes in the water content of their food. Similarly, their compensatory drinking response to dehydration due to increased environmental temperature is less effective than dogs. This apparent weakness of the cat's thirst drive to respond to changes in her state of hydration has led to the conclusion that feeding canned food assures adequate hydration at all times.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 03:55 PM
I don't have an insistence on feeding dry. I spent months being a scientist figuring out canned foods she'd eat I'm only doing it while it's the only food I've got that is low enough in phos.

I've also explained that I've given alternate advice a try and I don't think it hurts to give the vet's idea one stinking month!

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 04:03 PM
She's not NOT being pro-active. She is not in stage 4, and she wants to see if the food helps, and if it doesn't enough then fluids.

Not every cat is the same. Treating CRF is not a one size fits all approach.

I know all the arguments for canned food - no need to repeat over and over.

I know they eat meat - no need to repeat over and over.

I also know they are adaptable and if plant protein produces less waste in the blood, then it makes sense to me to feed it to a CRF cat! Though I would not to a non CRF cat.

I don't care if she eats more and wastes more in the litterbox, it's her kidney levels and overall health I care about.

Since there are cats who lived their whole long live on foods like this I don't automatically think it's a crappy as you do.

Obviously if after a month it hasn't helped her and/or she seems in poorer health in other ways I will make another change.

But I would never forgive myself if I did not TRY what the vet says she has seen GOOD results from more often than any other food!

hazelrunpack
March 29th, 2010, 04:08 PM
Mia, I don't think anyone is trying to badger you. You asked for input and other members tried to help. It's not out of the blue--growler, for instance, has been treating her CRF cat successfully for many months now.

You can choose to follow their advice or not, but I'm sure it was all given with only the best of intentions.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Also the research on canned food does not say that dry causes dehydration. It is a THEORY that feeding dry MAY cause chronic slight dehydration and MAY be a factor in CRF. They'd need to do a 20 year study to conclude that, and it hasn't been done controlling for all other factors.

But y'all take that THEORY and use it to hammer people who feed dry. Once, I couldn't even get info on dry because everyone said if I feed dry I may as well just shoot her so what is the point? That's fanatical. That's crazy.

Cats have been domesticated for many many generations and learned how to drink! Talking about them like they still are their ancient desert creatures is denying evolution.

Now, I *do* get why CRF cats need canned, but I've explained why I'm not doing that for one month. Unless I find one that is below .5 on a dry matter basis.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 04:15 PM
Mia, I don't think anyone is trying to badger you. You asked for input and other members tried to help. It's not out of the blue--growler, for instance, has been treating her CRF cat successfully for many months now.

You can choose to follow their advice or not, but I'm sure it was all given with only the best of intentions.

I'm sure it is, but I'm referring also to past threads. They have a lot of info or I wouldn't come here at all, but for the sake of others I'm going to say what I think too and challenge some of the things some here act like are HARD FACTS that are NOT.

It's dangerous for people to do a few months of research and tell people to ignore all other advice from pros in such an authoritative manner.

Many people leave this board very fast because instead of help they get put down over things sometimes they weren't even asking about!

Not everyone has the same view that pets are like children,for instance. I do, but many do not and it doesn't make them evil.

Why not help them where they are instead of blowing them off if they don't do everything that is considered to be the most ideal?

hazelrunpack
March 29th, 2010, 04:18 PM
Opinions differ, Mia. You'll find that wherever you go. But everyone makes their own choices. :shrug: I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but they really are only trying to help. :o

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I would rather feed a slightly higher phos level food with quality ingredients than a lower phos food with lower quality ingredients.


That didn't work so well for my kitty, and the vet would rather the other, and so does a friend who is a vet and both of them stay up on nutrition.

So I find it quite reasonable to simply TRY their way for a month and see what her check-up shows.

Vets do not always know a lot about nutrition, true. But some do, and they know a lot of things that nutritionists don't, so I think a coordinated effort is best rather than throwing out everything a vet says.

When one displays to me they don't know jack about nutrition (like the one who said low protein is good 'a thin cat is better than a dead cat') I ignore them.

Mine knows that it's the kind of protein, not the amount, that is of more concern.

The NF canned is too high if it's .78, but if she would eat it I would feed it.

Your quote agreed with what I said - that below .5 is the actual target and around .1 is only advised if the cat will not eat any food below .5.

So why do y'all always tell people 1.0 when you know the real target is below .5?

It doesn't take much typing to explain 1.0 is only IF the cat will not eat the target amount.

As I said, and I have not had the chance to re-research what is so crazy bad about phosphorous, but my vet is emphatic that lowest phosphorus trumps the moisture in cans and the better ingredients in a higher phosphorus food.

I am not saying that is true, and if it is true for all cats (they are not cookie-cutter) I'm saying I'm going to TRY it for a month because if I keep listening to the internet and not the vet, and she continues to decline, I will hate myself for not giving it a CHANCE.

What in the hell is so wrong about that? My God.

This week she is eating NF, a little of her old dry, and wellness with a touch of fancy feast to make it taste better to ease the adjustment, and then she will eat NF for 3-4 weeks, and I will know one way or another what is best for THIS cat.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Opinions differ, Mia. You'll find that wherever you go. But everyone makes their own choices. :shrug: I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but they really are only trying to help. :o

I know and I appreciate that. But it's not helpful, as a for instance, for posters to refuse to help with a dry food choice because it's like feeding only cheetoes to a child. It is NOT the same, and that's not helpful to a person who for whatever reason is not going to feed canned.

It just sends people away continuing to feed meow mix or old roy. It would be better to get them on a quality dry than not changing anything.

sugarcatmom
March 29th, 2010, 08:25 PM
You know Mia101, your surly attitude has gone beyond merely annoying and is now insulting. I won't waste my time posting more links to you that you won't read or will continue to dismiss. You're going to believe what you want to believe, and that's fine. I do have a question for you though.

and that's not helpful to a person who for whatever reason is not going to feed canned.


Why are "y'all":rolleyes: so reluctant to feed wet food? It isn't the money, apparently. I'm guessing it's laziness. Just like with the subQ fluids. Several months of subQs are going to cost you waaaaaay less than even one night of IV fluids at the vet. But whatever, your cat ain't "going to live long enough for that to matter much" anyway.

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 08:34 PM
I have nothing against canned food! You're not reading all that I write.

I was like a scientist over here when I learned about premium food and canned in particular.

It was a long struggle with lots of money down the drain to switch my princess to PREMIUM CANNED, but I did it gladly.

I was referring to people who just won't. Either for money or convenience or whatever.

I can't convince a friend of mine, because her cat doesn't like it and she won't take the time and energy to gently but firmly make thee change.

So I at least extol the virtues of getting a GOOD dry. Iams is as far as she will go, but that is MUCH better than Friskies!

************************************************** *******

The ONLY thing I am 'stubborn' on is giving this NF a freaking one month trial. You won't answer what is so terrible about that. What if it works?

I seriously doubt it's going to hurt more than NOT trying it and having to wonder forever if I did all I could.

************************************************** *******

Mia101
March 29th, 2010, 08:41 PM
I don't have a 'surly' attitude anymore than any of the regular posters here who demonize newcomers if they don't tow the line of what some here think is the ideal, even though it is NOT proven!

Come on, healthy debate brings out more knowledge!

Isn't that the goal?

growler~GateKeeper
March 30th, 2010, 01:01 AM
What was the blood phosphorous level on the latest test?

Did the vet do a urinalysis yet?

Where did this info come from? Who said Purina is doing the research everyone uses?

what are the treatment protocols your vet had currently in place aside from eat low phos food?


Your quote agreed with what I said - that below .5 is the actual target and around .1 is only advised if the cat will not eat any food below .5.

So why do y'all always tell people 1.0 when you know the real target is below .5?

It doesn't take much typing to explain 1.0 is only IF the cat will not eat the target amount.

What was the max amount your vet said is allowable?

Not every cat is going to eat the foods that are 0.5% or less, therefore in order to save time finding appropriate levels foods the max amount that the renal diets top out at are used as a guideline, this way a person can try a variety of foods without delay.

When I started looking for a lower phos canned food, before switching to raw, I skipped all the renal diets because I chose not to feed those foods based on ingredients.

The guideline is 1% or less based on what the cat is willing to eat not only if they refuse to eat less than 0.5%. You find the best food with the lowest phos level your cat will eat, if it's higher than 1% you look into phos binders.

It is a THEORY that feeding dry MAY cause chronic slight dehydration and MAY be a factor in CRF.

The cats kidneys filter toxins from the blood and deposit them as urea in the bladder to be excreted out of the body with water as urine. The cats kidneys are unlike any other animal in that they concentrate the waste products that are filtered out and what is left is water, the kidneys then recycle this now clean water back throughout the body, therefore using as much of the water they ingest and thereby not needing to drink as much as a dog or human etc. The toxins that are deposited in the bladder are combined with as little water as possible to excrete as urine.

In the case of a cat with CRF the kidneys get overloaded with toxins can not filter fast enough as many of the cells die, and they can not concentrate as efficiently as healthy kidneys therefore there is more water used in the removal of urea from the bladder which presents itself as increased urination. In order to compensate for the extra water they have now lost, as normal kidneys would have recycled most of that extra water back through the body, the cat now has to drink more water.

If the CRF cat is fed a dry food diet there is only 8-11% moisture in that water, they can not use their food source to replace the extra water they've lost by urination so they must drink more water. IF the CRF cat is fed an exclusively wet food diet with 75-80% moisture there is enough in there that they can use some of that moisture to replace what they've lost, therefore they do not need to drink as much water as a dry fed only CRF cat.

Once the CRF reaches stage 3 and 4 the cat can not drink enough water to replace what they are urinating in order to effectively flush the toxins from the system. The kidneys start shutting down because they are backed up with too much toxins. Without fluid therapy the cat becomes sicker with metabolic acidosis - an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood, they refuse to eat because they don't feel well, they become nausous because there is too much stomach acid produced causing them to vomit, because the cat doesn't feel well & is nausous & vomiting they refuse to eat and start losing weight. Once the cat refuses to eat they are also at risk of liver complications.

People with healthy canned fed cats say they rarely see their cats drink water, yet those that are dry fed or a combination of dry & wet fed often see their cat drinking water. If a dry fed cat is not chronically dehydrated why are they drinking so much water?

sugarcatmom
March 30th, 2010, 08:24 AM
I don't have a 'surly' attitude anymore than any of the regular posters here who demonize newcomers if they don't tow the line of what some here think is the ideal, even though it is NOT proven!

Nobody is "demonizing" anybody. If you feel that way (and you are prone to hyperbole, I've noticed) then that stems from your own insecurities and I can't help you there.

As far as proof that dry food harms cats, hmmm, lets see..... FLUTD. Diabetes. IBD. Kidney disease. Allergies. Dental disease. All hugely impacted, if not entirely created, by a dry-food diet. Don't believe me? Come hang out on the feline diabetes message board sometime. Or the IBD Yahoo group. How about the fact that a blocked urinary tract is one of the leading causes of death in male cats under 4 yrs old? I guess "evolution" hasn't caught up to them yet. http://www.catinfo.org/feline_urinary_tract_health.htm

There is no good reason to feed dry food to cats, and plenty reasons not to. If you want "healthy debate" on the subject, then stop flying off the freakin handle when we say stuff you don't agree with. If you'd rather just continue to feed your cat kibble and feel good about it, then you're talking to the wrong person. Go talk to your vet instead. Since they're so "up on nutrition" and all. ;)

Ford
March 30th, 2010, 10:38 AM
If anyone has something to add to this thread, please do so without rudeness or ignorance. If you can not do that while remaining civil, then please refrain from posting. We'd prefer to not have to close another thread because people can't discuss and debate like adults.

Your friendly neighbourhood mod,
Ford