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Article AGAINST RAW

Pink-ET
March 21st, 2010, 08:56 AM
As you know I have been looking into RAW and Kibble and whether they can be mixed etc, and I came across this (see link)

http://www.rgj.com/article/20060409/COL56/604090301/Dry-kibble-recommended-over-a-raw-food-diet-for-dogs

This professor gives all the reasons why the BARF is really bad for dogs.

Opinions anyone :shrug:

14+kitties
March 21st, 2010, 09:23 AM
The only thing is with further investigation it may be found many of those "experts" who are against feeding raw may be employed by the company they say you should buy the dry kibble from. At some point during the article there is probably a certain brand mentioned.
I find it hard to believe that a dry, hard kibble that shatters on contact with the tooth, if bitten into at all before being swallowed, can help dental issues. :shrug: The article says to avoid by products but again, without paying a huge amount of $$ for a food, the average consumer can not afford to buy the dry kibble that does not contain by products.
The sanctuary that was mentioned at the first of the article - take in abused and neglected animals. Therefore many may already have health issues before arrival. I would be more apt to think many issues were present on arrival.
You can form your own opinions. Most of us do. But I would like to think personal knowledge and experience of people who's pets are on balanced, correctly made raw diets speak for themselves.

LavenderRott
March 21st, 2010, 09:41 AM
Just like everything else in life - some experts think that BARF is good and some think it is bad. You can always find "facts" to support both sides of the arguement. I find it interesting that the "expert" interviewed for this article mentions chicken-by-products as something you don't want to find in your dog food then goes on to say that Iam's and Science Diet are good foods because they don't contain soy. No, Iam's doesn't contain soy but Science Diet does, and both contain chicken-by-products. Science Diet lists 3 corn products between their number 1 ingredient - chicken and their number 4 ingredient - chicken by product. After your chicken-by-product you have soy and yet another corn.

I talk to a lot of raw feeders on a daily basis and have fed raw. Not one of them have had any of the issues that this expert says are dangerous. I don't know of anyone who got salmanella from their dog after it ate chicken.

Love4himies
March 21st, 2010, 09:49 AM
Thanks for posting that.

*Sigh*, if you have to add nutrients to the food to make it nutritionally complete, then it is not a proper diet for that species. Why is that such a difficult concept for "scientists" to understand :shrug:.

Highly processed, sterile food is not good for humans, they need some bacteria in their digestive tract to stay healthy. It is not only the stomach acid level that makes it difficult for bacteria to flourish, it is the time the food stays in the digestive tract. Cats and dogs have a much shorter one than humans so the food doesn't stay in it so long.

Pink-ET
March 21st, 2010, 09:51 AM
You can form your own opinions. Most of us do. But I would like to think personal knowledge and experience of people who's pets are on balanced, correctly made raw diets speak for themselves.

ABSOLUTELY....and I have taken a lot from everyones opinions on this board and am now feeding Lola RAW plus Acana. That is why these boards are so valuable. There is so much info out there that it becomes mind-boggling....

...as a specialist nurse we deliver 'best practice' which is evidence based research, and expert opinion" I am a firm believer in experience being utilized within the boundaries of evidence based research....and many on these boards ARE the experts :thumbs up

Masha
March 21st, 2010, 10:07 PM
There is almost no research or 'controlled studies' about raw, because there is no 'company' that can benefit from demonstrating the benefits of raw feeding. The big pet food companies spend millions on biased research to help support their brands, but it is biased and when you look into the methods used in the study its quite obvious the it is skewed. Unfortunately funding comes from the big companies and any findings that dispute their brands will quietly go by unmentioned. *I am a big raw food proponent through what i have seen in dogs who have switched to raw*

MyBirdIsEvil
March 21st, 2010, 10:37 PM
People are able to feed themselves without eating a highly processed prepared diet each day, and the fact that vets and other people think the average person isn't smart enough to feed their dog the same way is ridiculous. These people make it sound as if it's rocket science to figure out how to feed your animal without buying a prepared formula from some company.

"As more people experiment with raw meat diets, veterinarians are seeing frequent cases of pancreatitis, ulcers, malnutrition, injuries due to the raw bones, systemic bacterial poisoning and other conditions."

I don't even get this quote. Enough people don't even feed RAW to make the assumption, the vast majority still feed kibble or canned.

As far as pancreatitis that's an issue with ANY animal no matter what it has been fed. My vet told me it's one of the main dangerous illnesses he sees, and I really doubt most of his patients eat raw food.

Malnutrition I could believe, if someone does not do the correct research. I really doubt they're seeing that in the vast majority of people feeding raw food though, and that would be an error caused by an idiot owner rather than an issue with the diet itself.

Bacterial infections generally only happen when the animal is fed food that's not fresh, raw or not. These infections happen even with animals that eat kibble. If kibble is old and out of date, or has been stored improperly you will see this.

Injuries due to raw bones can happen, especially if your dog tends to be a gulper and does not chew. I don't think these injuries are all that common though. Either way, you do not HAVE to feed your dog whole bones if he tends to gulp, so that's not a very good argument against raw feeding.

further, he said, "Nutritionally, feeding these raw ingredients decreases their bioavailability while the cooking process increases the bioavailablity of nutrients."

I don't know where he's getting this one. I haven't seen research that shows cooking increases bioavailability of nutrients for dogs. I've seen research that shows bioavailability of specific nutrients are increased with cooking some vegetables, meats, and grains for humans. I have not seen a complete research study on this for canines, so I'm not sure what he's citing. And besides that, NO good study would state that bioavailability of nutrients in general is lowered, it would show bioavailability of SPECIFIC nutrients (because some nutrients are more easily absorbed when cooked, some nutrients are not even present in something uncooked, and some nutrients are present or more easily digestible in raw food.)

"The beauty of beet pulp is that half is soluble and half is unsoluble. It provides the best of both worlds."

Ok. Now I'm convinced these guy is just a shill for some pet food company. I've never heard ANYONE besides a pet food company or an ingredient supplier for a pet food company extol the value of beet pulp in dog food for the nutrition of the dog. It's in kibble because it's a high calorie source of fiber that holds the kibble together well. No other reason. You notice you rarely see it in canned foods. I don't think it's evil like some people do, but it's an unnecessary filler. It's a good ingredient for the pet food company because it's a cheap filler that holds together well. They don't add it for the health of your pet, it's for their own benefit.

BARFers often claim those who disagree with them are toadies for the pet food industry. So I asked Hussein if he were one.

He laughed and said no, that most dog food companies do research in-house and don't fund university studies.

Well that convinces ME then!

I couldn't find any information on this guy. He wasn't listed on the colleges website as a member of the faculty so maybe he doesn't work there anymore. Couldn't find anything on him on google. No info whatsoever, so I can't say what he is :shrug:. I just know the information he gave isn't very scientific or detailed and is generally the same shoddy info a pet food company will throw at you. Some of his info was accurate, such as looking for chicken meal in kibble (though, then the 2 companies he named generally DON'T use chicken meal as the main ingredient) and stating that soy isn't that great (then he names a brand that DOES use soy (Science Diet, as already stated)). I'm not sure why he named any brands anyway, because if he was an independent unbias scientist he wouldn't be recommending any specific brands.
Maybe he's NOT a shill for the pet food companies, but I wouldn't trust this guy as a scientist at all.

cassiek
March 21st, 2010, 11:20 PM
RAW is the ONLY diet I have ever been able to successfully feed to my three dogs. Part of the beauty for me in raw is being able to easily accommodate each of my dogs special needs.

Its unfortunate there is not alot of physical data to support raw, but for myself I don't need any data because I have seen the live results in my dogs... almost immediately they had a refreshed energy about them, coats were shiny, eyes bright etc. and that was within a few weeks of starting. I have a 9 year old dog who was starting to show her age, we switched to raw and she is like a pup again - its incredible, I have never seen results like this with any other dog food.

Alot of the arguments against raw can be said about kibble (i.e. the process of making kibble does not eliminate all bacteria, dogs can choke on kibble etc etc.)

I have a friend who is a vet in Ontario and she herself is about to start trying raw. Yes, I think you do need to use common sense and make sure you wash down your counters etc. just like you would handling any other raw meat, but I think alot of the arguments against raw just simply don't hold up.

MyBirdIsEvil
March 21st, 2010, 11:59 PM
Its unfortunate there is not alot of physical data to support raw,

It's unfortunate that there's not a lot of physical data on dog nutrition in general for that matter. Up until recently dogs weren't necessarily considered part of the family, but more like livestock, or just working animals. So people fed what they could feed, meat scraps and whatnot (and oddly enough dog's lifespans - assuming they didn't die of injury or illness - were not much different than now). When people started keeping dogs more as family members the big corporations jumped right into the market (Nestle, P&G, etc.) to make cheap foods that they marketed as highly nutritious with lots of advertising so people would buy. This was a good way for the companies to use their leftovers (non human grade meat byproducts, grain leftovers and stuff like that). It became generally cheaper and more convenient for people to buy pet food in a bag or a can than to prepare their own foods.
It's only very recently that more than a few companies have jumped into the market with better food formulas and people have started to question the ingredients in big name pet foods. Hopefully now that there are more and more people wondering about pet nutrition there will be more unbias studies done into canine and feline nutrition.

Pink-ET
March 22nd, 2010, 06:47 AM
more convenient for people to buy pet food in a bag or a can than to prepare their own foods.

Same with baby food!! what did everyone do all those years ago without all the jars and cans!! And adults too! unfortunately we are in a world of pre-packaged, preservative packed, living....and the planet is suffering because of it.

Love4himies
March 22nd, 2010, 07:40 AM
Its unfortunate there is not alot of physical data to support raw, but for myself I don't need any data because I have seen the live results in my dogs... almost immediately they had a refreshed energy about them, coats were shiny, eyes bright etc. and that was within a few weeks of starting. I have a 9 year old dog who was starting to show her age, we switched to raw and she is like a pup again - its incredible, I have never seen results like this with any other dog food.



Me too when I switched my Puddles to raw the change in her fur and activity level was astounding.

marko
March 22nd, 2010, 11:27 AM
Personal opinion here. What do you think dogs ate BEFORE they were domesticated...

Meaning from when the world was created to about 150 years ago...what do you think they ate? The answer is RAW plus plant material. They did not go extinct did they?

IMO, feeding RAW for the average healthy animal is likely superior to can/kibble.
I'll be honest, I've never fed RAW nor do I intend to, nor do I wish to defend my choice. But logically, to me, RAW makes very good sense. OBVIOUSLY if the meat is ill prepared some dogs can get sick...but if you trust your butcher to feed your family...you should be able to trust them to feed your dog. :2cents:

kandy
March 22nd, 2010, 07:13 PM
The article was from 2006, so I think there are probably some additional research studies that have been done on raw since then. I read until I got to a part that this biologist said that 'chicken meal.......means the breast has been taken out for human consumption and the rest goes into dog food'. IMO that statement is not only inaccurate, it makes the man sound like a fool. He also said that it's more ideal to have 'whole chicken' as the first ingredient. Umm........no - a meal will already have the water removed and will stay as the first ingredient during processing, a wet meat will lose alot of it's weight during processing and will drop to 3rd or 4th on the ingredient list. IMO any of his students should really be questioning anything he teaches them - which is maybe why he's not on the University website anymore. I don't feed raw, but just reading that far through the article was enough for me to decide that this is one person's opinion that I don't think holds any water.

Pink-ET
April 12th, 2010, 06:59 AM
just an update here.....been feeding lola nature's variety RAW medallions now, got rid of the kibble completely and just feeding lola the raw (only takes 4 medallions a day because she is a toy breed so not too expensive)

I ran out the other day so gave her some acana until I could get to the store that afternoon - and she vomited the ENTIRE feeding back :eek:

so RAW medallions it will continue to be. :D (with a dentastix chew to help prevent tartare build up)

Love4himies
April 12th, 2010, 07:48 AM
I have found that Puddles can't tolerate her old cheap food since I have switched her to raw and NV Instinct canned. Gotta wonder how crappy the ingredients really are in the food.

Goldfields
April 12th, 2010, 10:32 AM
Must admit my vets here hate people feeding bones to their dogs, they see to many problems because of it. We've had our share too, so no more for mine. As for raw. Well, I bought a dog off a breeder who swore by a certain all natural dry food and a raw diet. She talked one of her puppy buyers into feeding it and the pup got returned to her as an adult with absolutely the worst coat I have ever seen on a sheltie, and that was after she'd had him back for 3 months, trying to fix the problem. The day she actually picked him up, well, I hate to imagine how bad it was, she drove from a show to the airport to get him and he was so bad she hid him in her dog trailer when she got back to the show. So, she probably thought "Come in sucker" when I was very interested in buying him, but I was confident about working some magic and thrilled that I could have him. Long story short, that awful all natural dry food left permanent dirty stains on his teeth, I found he hated the raw diet, so I took him off that, and after some coat care and a decent diet he ended up winning his class at a Sheltie National. :D Don't you love a good ending? :)

MyBirdIsEvil
April 12th, 2010, 12:10 PM
That's great, but I'm confused as to your point :laughing:

Are you for raw, against it, neutral? :confused:

I feed a high quality kibble and my greater swiss mountain dog has an awesome coat. I've fed raw before and the dog I was feeding it to looked great.

I really can't imagine a kibble, even the cheap stuff, and raw causing a horrible coat on its own, it sounds like there was some kind of other neglect going on. Like they weren't feeding the stuff properly in general and weren't caring for the dog and its coat. I haven't had a sheltie, but they have a similar coat to a rough collie (which I had and now my mother in law has him) and if you don't rake their coat out daily, exercise them and feed them properly they will get hot spots or chew on themselves and their coat will just look crappy. My mother in law missed a knot on his butt and he got a hot spot there and now he's fur looks really bad there (well before we shaved the fur off to treat the spot, so now he looks worse :laughing:).

So yeah, point is, just not sure what you're implying about the dogs coat? What do YOU currently feed?

3iggys
April 12th, 2010, 12:44 PM
I am on several other forums and there is this one poster that sounds exactly like the article that has tried to push is RAW opinion down the throats of everyone. He (she) had only theory - nothing proven - and had a few vets on the forum questioning everything he (she) said.
I love to read each one's opinion. Some diets work for certain people, some don't. The only problem I have reading these posts is sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what the poster is meaning - placement of words - and a few readers seem to take the post personally.
What would this forum be like if it were Skyped? We could see who was posting and be able to talk that way. Some times just seeing the face makes the meaning of the post come out differently.

JUST MY OPINION!!!!
Linda

14+kitties
April 12th, 2010, 01:09 PM
Must admit my vets here hate people feeding bones to their dogs, they see to many problems because of it. We've had our share too, so no more for mine. As for raw. Well, I bought a dog off a breeder who swore by a certain all natural dry food and a raw diet. She talked one of her puppy buyers into feeding it and the pup got returned to her as an adult with absolutely the worst coat I have ever seen on a sheltie, and that was after she'd had him back for 3 months, trying to fix the problem. The day she actually picked him up, well, I hate to imagine how bad it was, she drove from a show to the airport to get him and he was so bad she hid him in her dog trailer when she got back to the show. So, she probably thought "Come in sucker" when I was very interested in buying him, but I was confident about working some magic and thrilled that I could have him. Long story short, that awful all natural dry food left permanent dirty stains on his teeth, I found he hated the raw diet, so I took him off that, and after some coat care and a decent diet he ended up winning his class at a Sheltie National. :D Don't you love a good ending? :)

What was in the all natural dry food? That's kind of a conundrum in itself, isn't it? If you are not feeding the proper raw diet with the proper amount of nutrients then yes, I can see the problems you are speaking of.
But to each their own. A lot of people on this forum feed raw and have had amazing results from it. I have never, before now, heard anything else.
Sounds to me like there were other things going on with this poor dog beside bad nutrition. :(

cassiek
April 12th, 2010, 09:53 PM
Goldfields, I am curious as to what problems you have had feeding dogs RAW bones...? :shrug: IMO, they are mother nature's very best toothbrush/dental floss for dogs. I have two smaller dogs who before starting RAW last fall had terrible teeth. I will admit I am a bad doggie mom and never brush their teeth and at ages 7 and 9, their teeth were in dire need of a cleaning. Last week, after 6 months of raw, I took them in for a cleaning and received the best news... not only did they not have to pull any teeth, the vet tech told me that she has never seen such wonderful teeth in small dogs this age! When I told her that I give my dogs a raw diet supplemented with raw bones, she agreed that the raw diet and bones was THE contributer to their clean bill of oral health! :thumbs up

I can see how a dog owner/vet would have a lot of problems with bones if they are fed COOKED, but I have never heard of a RAW bone causing any problems (yes, things can happen, but not very often).

I have never seen my dogs in better shape since starting on raw... all 3 dog's have beautiful coats, a sparkle in their eyes, lean muscle, and little fat. I have never found a diet I can feed all three of my dogs successfully until now - raw.

But yes, raw still needs to be given in the correct ratios and portions. So perhaps this dog was lacking a major nutrient in a raw diet?

I'm surprised he hated raw... my dogs trample me down for it! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Goldfields
April 13th, 2010, 11:27 AM
Sorry, had a busy day. Okay, first off, that dog had no health issue that could have caused his appalling coat. He was bred by a top breeder/exhibitor/judge here who has been involved solely with this breed for more than 30 years, importing dogs from England and breeding heaps of Ch's. Point I was making is that she, like so many of you, thought highly of raw food diets. The dry food she used was not cheap, far from it, and by the way, I DO consider her an expert, so for a while followed the diet she suggested. Another point I was making, it will not suit EVERY dog. Ben hated it, it did him no good, the dirty brown dry food gave him dirty brown stains on his teeth that could not be shifted and his previous owner would have tried everything to try and get the dog looking good, because he did want to win with him. I know the breeder would not have parted with him the second time if she could have got his coat right but maybe she was just too set in her ways to experiment, who knows? I thought it was a dietary problem all along, I just knew I could turn the ugly duckling into a swan :D so imagine how annoyed I was when another top breeder/exhibitor tried telling me that the coat was a product of his breeding, that when you double up on such and such a dog in a pedigree you get bad coats. I just told her to give the dog a chance, I'd only had him one day at that stage. :laughing: I'm not going into what made the coat bad, or what I fed to have him looking so beautiful, I just thought this was a classic case of raw food having a detrimental effect.
And bones? Well, if you show dogs you want them to have full dentition. I have watched one of my bitches actually pull out a premolar that became stuck in a bone. The friend who bred my red cattle dog had his brother bleeding all over her patio after that dog damaged inside his throat with a piece of bone. My boy nearly choked to death on a piece. My childhood dog got an impaction from eating bones. A blue cattle dog from the past got hold of a rabbit that cats must have killed and ate it, then later vomited up the most horrifying splintered, jagged bones, I was so glad she did that. Time proved that she just couldn't eat rabbit whether it was raw or cooked(and off the bone), it always made her vomit.(thank heaven) Regardless of my experiences with troublesome bones, I was surprised when my vet's receptionist told me that vets at that clinic I go to hate dogs being fed bones, maybe I should ask my vet what's the worst he's seen? I never have this attitude that "It won't happen to my dog", I think it's better to be safe than sorry. I use a scaler on my dogs' teeth.
MyBirdIsEvil, there is no way known my dogs get groomed every day and I have NEVER had a hot spot on a sheltie. My sister has. I asked my mentor about that problem and she said it usually occurs if shelties aren't dried thoroughly after being bathed, and hey, I blow dry mine and make sure there isn't a damp spot anywhere, and my sister doesn't. Could your Collie have got damp under that matt on his rump?

aslan
April 13th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Goldfields you've now confused me too...you said the " dirty brown kibble gave him dirty brown stains on his teeth". Kibble has nothing to do with raw feeding?

14+kitties
April 13th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Raw is exactly that. Raw beef, raw pork, raw chicken, raw rabbit, etc. with raw bones. Cooked bones are deadly to animals btw. It has nothing to do with dry brown dry food. :confused: It incudes veggies, tripe, and any other nutrients raw feeders feel necessary to add to their pets' food.
As Marko said earlier in this thread - what do we think dogs and cats ate before the pet food industry came along? Cats have thrived for years and years on mice, birds, even rabbits. JMO

Goldfields
April 13th, 2010, 12:18 PM
This was supposedly a superior dry food, not one of the commercial ones, made with all good, natural products, and just part of the hype about how we should be feeding our shelties back then. Not amusing that he had stained teeth all his life from that, and heavens only knows what was in it that did that to them. :eek: Mind you, his wouldn't be the worst teeth a judge has seen on a show dog. I was interested in using one at stud, so asked at a show could I check his teeth. They were so incredibly dirty that I almost reached for my tooth scaler, I could not believe that anyone could let them get so bad, or show this to a judge. The dog went Best of Breed. Unreal!

aslan
April 13th, 2010, 12:18 PM
oh 14+ you couldn't have called it any better as you read the article look what suddenly appears.

"If you switch the dog to Science Diet or Iam's," he said, "you'll find (the gas) disappears because they're not using soybean meal."

aslan
April 13th, 2010, 12:20 PM
This was supposedly a superior dry food, not one of the commercial ones, made with all good, natural products, and just part of the hype about how we should be feeding our shelties back then. Not amusing that he had stained teeth all his life from that, and heavens only knows what was in it that did that to them. :eek: Mind you, his wouldn't be the worst teeth a judge has seen on a show dog. I was interested in using one at stud, so asked at a show could I check his teeth. They were so incredibly dirty that I almost reached for my tooth scaler, I could not believe that anyone could let them get so bad, or show this to a judge. The dog went Best of Breed. Unreal!

but you're talking about kibble not raw this is what confused me..so the breeder suggested a crap kibble which resulted in stained teeth and crappy coat..none of which has anything to do with raw feeding.:shrug:

BenMax
April 13th, 2010, 12:22 PM
My GSD eats raw fish as a treat only. I have not converted to raw nor do I plan to. For the dogs I feed Acana or Oriijen kibble and Merrick can. For the cats they get Nutri Source Kibble in the morning and 5 out of 6 get can food at night. For me personally, there is too much prep work involved with feeding raw. I want the convenience of opening a bag, a can, and feed. Yes I sound lazy but it really is a matter of time convenience.

MyBirdIsEvil
April 13th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Could your Collie have got damp under that matt on his rump?

I think mainly the knot caused irritation and he chewed on and licked himself there causing an infection. Moisture does aggravate the situation though because it allows bacteria, fungus and/or yeast to grow. We generally treat with plain old yeast infection medicine and it works.
Any dog can get a hot spot no matter how they are dried. It's usually not caused by water, it's caused by the dog chewing on itself for whatever reason and licking which causes a constant moisture and presence of bacteria, fungus and/or yeast. If a dog has allergies to something or becomes irritated for some reason they may chew or lick and a hot spot will be caused.

My point was that a properly fed diet does NOT cause huge coat issues and the appearance of neglect, which it what it sounds like happened in your situation. Just because the breeder shows dogs and has champions does NOT mean they know how to feed RAW properly; I don't personally know you or your breeder, and wouldn't know if either of you have nutritional knowledge in general. There are indeed SOME dogs that don't do well on specific diets, even RAW, and I don't think anyone implied otherwise. Any dog can have nutritional needs that can't be met by normal diets, or allergies to specific items. In GENERAL I have seen dogs do just fine on RAW diets.

As far as NATURAL foods, I have no idea what kind of "natural" food the dog was being fed, so that doesn't say anything about foods labelled as natural in general. The word natural, concerning dog foods, doesn't even have a distinct definition by the FDA, so a food labelled natural isn't necessarily nutritionally complete just because it's labelled as such, and doesn't contain specific types of ingredients just because it says natural.

Concerning the danger of raw bones, yes it is possible for a dog to choke or get a blockage if they tend to gulp, and also depends on what kind of bone they are given. Certain bones, specifically large leg bones and such, aren't always safe to give and CAN cause broken teeth. That's why it's important to completely research raw feeding and learn what parts are safe to give.
Even so, the danger of bones isn't a valid argument against raw feeding, IMO. If someone is worried about such a thing they can feed the correct ratio of GROUND bones which pose no danger of broken teeth or becoming lodged in a dog's intestines or throat.

14+kitties
April 13th, 2010, 12:41 PM
oh 14+ you couldn't have called it any better as you read the article look what suddenly appears.

"If you switch the dog to Science Diet or Iam's," he said, "you'll find (the gas) disappears because they're not using soybean meal."

But we all know that most of these articles are written by employees of the big pet food companies. It's their job to turn people away from a diet that is beneficial to a dogs' or cats' health and onto their inferior products. I sometimes wonder if they have a stake in every vets' office that sells their stuff. :shrug:

MyBirdIsEvil
April 13th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Mainly the pet food companies are like drug reps for the large pharmaceutical companies that go around getting doctors to prescribe their drugs. The reps tout the benefits of their food and the vets get a discount on the food which is sold at a huge markup. Many vets don't get a well rounded education on pet nutrition in school and don't do their own research (which is honestly understandable because veterinary school is a lot of time and work in itself, so who has the time to start doing their own research?). The big reason for this is there aren't many unbias educators to teach nutrition in the schools, so the vets have all the information that the big name pet food companies put out beaten into their heads. If you notice, most nutritional studies are done by big name pet food companies because they have the money and incentive to perform those studies. There aren't really that many independent unbias studies done on pet nutrition.
I do understand why some vets are hesitant to recommend foods outside of the large name pet food industry. It's because they're wanting to recommend foods that have been fully researched and have scientific studies (albeit bias) backing their nutritional benefits. If the vets had more unbias information to go off of I think they would be more likely to recommend better foods. There is just not the amount of independent research on pet food nutrition that there has been on human nutrition.
To be fair, us owners are also shooting in the dark because we're going largely on anecdotal evidence and the small amount of unbias research we can find. We could be wrong on some of our info also, but we need more research to make fully educated decisions about our pets.

Goldfields
April 13th, 2010, 12:54 PM
You are not that easily confused I'm sure, aslan, the dog was on a raw diet. I stopped feeding him that dry food the minute I realised what it was doing to his teeth. He is dead and gone now and to this day I still feel guilty that I listened to his breeder and continued feeding raw for a short time to suit her, when I knew he hated it and it didn't suit him. For him one day more on it was too much. And that ends any discussion on dogs' diets for me, my point is made, that it doesn't suit every dog.
14+, I know what raw means, I also know cooked bones are dangerous, but so are raw, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. People speak of dogs or cats in the wild as if nothing bad ever happened to them, when of course it would have.

MyBirdIsEvil
April 13th, 2010, 01:01 PM
People speak of dogs or cats in the wild as if nothing bad ever happened to them, when of course it would have.

I understand. There are some people that toute RAW and feeding raw bones as if nothing bad could happen and it would suit every dog. This is definitely not true.

I don't think I saw anyone in this thread doing that though, and you seemed to be a bit defensive about comments that weren't actually made in this thread.

Your first post was a bit confusing and it was hard to tell what point you were trying to make. You mentioned raw, but it was hard to tell whether you were saying it wasn't fed properly to that specific dog, or you were against it altogether, or just for some dogs, or what. And then you mentioned natural kibble, which this thread wasn't even about, so that was a bit off topic.

14+kitties
April 13th, 2010, 01:03 PM
14+, I know what raw means, I also know cooked bones are dangerous, but so are raw, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Totally totally agree people are entitled to their own opinion. :thumbs up

People speak of dogs or cats in the wild as if nothing bad ever happened to them, when of course it would have.

Yep. Again I agree. Normally coyotes, cars, poison, freezing temperatures, hawks, etc.

aslan
April 13th, 2010, 01:04 PM
thanks MBIE,,,nope goldfields i'm not usually easily confused..There are members here who do feed raw and there are members who don't. My opinion is feed your pet whatever they will thrive on. Not everyones animal likes raw, some aren't big kibble fans,,some have tummy issues or allergies so have to be on certain diets. Aslong as your feeding your pet a good quality food, thats fine by me.:thumbs up

not sure what i said that seemed to upset you, not my intention.

I was already leaning towards raw when i met one of our members dogs who all eat raw,,penny had the most beautiful shiny coat i have ever seen and omg Lucky is sooooo soft. I watched twice a day for approximately a month just what and how much the puppers were fed and put it into practice when i got home. My big boy dropped down to a perfect weight and if you want to see a nice soft shiny golden come on over.

14+kitties
April 13th, 2010, 01:10 PM
thanks MBIE,,,nope goldfields i'm not usually easily confused..There are members here who do feed raw and there are members who don't. My opinion is feed your pet whatever they will thrive on. Not everyones animal likes raw, some aren't big kibble fans,,some have tummy issues or allergies so have to be on certain diets. Aslong as your feeding your pet a good quality food, thats fine by me.:thumbs up

not sure what i said that seemed to upset you, not my intention.

Thanks aslan. Exactly what I wanted to say. I don't feed raw. At the moment I just don't have the time to prepare it and still do the other stuff I do. I would love to. It's my intention when some of my time frees up to do so. I have tried it with my cats. Most don't like it but, given time, I am sure I could get them off their canned and switched. It's hard with the sheer number of cats I have. My dogs I would not change at their ages.
As long as your pets are thriving and healthy - :thumbs up

cassiek
April 13th, 2010, 05:02 PM
While bones can be dangerous and sure a dog could choke on one (they can choke on kibble too), break a tooth etc. its been MY experience that feeding my dogs raw bones (both edible and non) has been beneficial to their overall oral health and mental stimulation (ok, and my sanity too... LOL, nothing like throwing a bone at the dog and having them quiet for a few hours!).

But you do need to be careful with RAW, and with raw bones care must be taken as to what TYPE of bones the dogs chews on as to help minimize the chance of breaking a tooth.

As much as us RAW advocates always are encouraging new raw feeders to lighten up and not over-analyze everything, its still important that some thought and planning is put into a RAW diet.

I think its pointless to debate back and forth the RAW subject. Everyone has their own opinions, and my opinion is feed your dog what he/she does best on. Simply put. While I think we can make SOME generalizations re: dog nutrition, they will not hold true for EVERY dog and there certainly is exceptions.

TulipRoxy
April 22nd, 2010, 09:32 PM
I can see how a dog owner/vet would have a lot of problems with bones if they are fed COOKED, but I have never heard of a RAW bone causing any problems (yes, things can happen, but not very often).

I am a raw feeder but I recently stopped feeding raw beef marrow bones to my dogs as my sheltie cracked one of her pre-molars down to the pulp on one. The tooth had to be extracted, which was expensive, and traumatic. I dont feed beef marrow bones anymore as I feel they are too hard. I do however still feed chicken carcasses, turkey wings, pork riblets etc,smaller softer bones.

Goldfields
April 22nd, 2010, 11:23 PM
TulipRoxy,is your sheltie a blue merle, or sable merle? I assume that is her in the avatar? Sorry to hear of that damage. I used to have the big shin bones cut lengthways so my cattle dogs could easily get at the marrow, until one of them got a premolar stuck in that honeycomb sort of bone inside and pulled the tooth out.:eek: Fortunately that was my foundation bitch(too big for showing) , and not her daughter, my first home bred Ch.. I'd have been so depressed if my actions had caused a show dog to lose a tooth.

cassiek
April 23rd, 2010, 03:38 PM
Yes, you need to be careful with larger bones from weight-bearing animals.

Personally, most of my dogs get their bones from edible bones (i.e. ground up in patties or poultry like turkey/chicken backs and necks or carcasses - poultry are not weight-bearing animals, so their bones are softer and are safe for the dog to consume).

TulipRoxy
April 23rd, 2010, 08:49 PM
TulipRoxy,is your sheltie a blue merle, or sable merle? I assume that is her in the avatar?

She's a sable merle :)

Goldfields
April 23rd, 2010, 09:27 PM
cassiek, because of trouble with bones in the past and a vet who doesn't like dogs getting bones, mine don't get them, and their chicken(human grade - they eat better than I do :D ) is cooked and de-boned. Those who get minced beef get it raw but I prefer not to feed raw chicken.

14+kitties
April 23rd, 2010, 10:23 PM
IMO I think in order to feed a raw diet you need to do lots of research. You need to decide what you want from the diet and what you want it to do for your dog(s). Whether or not you include bone should be another factor of your research. If you want the calcium/nutrients the bone provides you can buy a good quality meat grinder and the bone can be ground fine enough not to cause any issues. If you want the benefits that chewing a bone provides you need to ensure you are getting the right size bone for your particular dog(s). I am not saying accidents don't still happen. They do. The same as accidents can happen when doing a lot of other things.
In this article:
http://www.professorshouse.com/pets/dogs/should-dogs-eat-bones.aspx
it says:
Many veterinarians state that they see more problems and health complications dealing with dog toys, chewed clothing, Christmas ornaments, and plastic bags than they do from bones. Is this because few people are giving their dogs the bones based on veterinarian advice or is this because bones are actually safer in reality than we have been led to believe?

I am not saying it's a must to feed bone. I am saying every owner needs to decide what diet best suits their particular dog(s) and their lifestyles and go from there. Just my :2cents:.

Another interesting read.......
http://www.squidoo.com/rawbone?utm_campaign=direct-discovery&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_source=APJ

Goldfields
April 24th, 2010, 01:15 AM
I don't let mine have plastic bags either 14+. :D Just joking, I'm pretty careful is all. I wouldn't mind betting that the majority feed the most convenient way. Dry and canned food.

14+kitties
April 24th, 2010, 03:21 PM
I don't let mine have plastic bags either 14+. :D Just joking, I'm pretty careful is all. I wouldn't mind betting that the majority feed the most convenient way. Dry and canned food.

Ouch!! I wouldn't think any responsible pet owner would "let" their dogs have plastic bags. But things happen quickly. :shrug:
As I said, people are entitled to educate themselves and feed what they feel is the best diet possible for their pets. Unfortunately pet food companies have made it way to convenient to feed kibble. Convenience is everything.

Love4himies
April 24th, 2010, 03:32 PM
IMO I think in order to feed a raw diet you need to do lots of research. You need to decide what you want from the diet and what you want it to do for your dog(s). Whether or not you include bone should be another factor of your research. If you want the calcium/nutrients the bone provides you can buy a good quality meat grinder and the bone can be ground fine enough not to cause any issues. If you want the benefits that chewing a bone provides you need to ensure you are getting the right size bone for your particular dog(s). I am not saying accidents don't still happen. They do. The same as accidents can happen when doing a lot of other things.
In this article:
http://www.professorshouse.com/pets/dogs/should-dogs-eat-bones.aspx
it says:
Many veterinarians state that they see more problems and health complications dealing with dog toys, chewed clothing, Christmas ornaments, and plastic bags than they do from bones. Is this because few people are giving their dogs the bones based on veterinarian advice or is this because bones are actually safer in reality than we have been led to believe?

I am not saying it's a must to feed bone. I am saying every owner needs to decide what diet best suits their particular dog(s) and their lifestyles and go from there. Just my :2cents:.

Another interesting read.......
http://www.squidoo.com/rawbone?utm_campaign=direct-discovery&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_source=APJ

Excellent suggestion on grinding :thumbs up. It is ALWAYS much better for any animal to get it's nutrition naturally than chemically. Of course the only downfall is the lack of teeth cleaning.