What constitutes a BYB?

Mods - if you don't think it should be here then remove it.

In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for. :rolleyes:

So - What exactly is a BYB? What factors determine if it is? What differs back yard breeding from a puppy mill? At what point does a back yard breeder become a puppy mill? Do they need to be selling a certain number of puppies? Do they need to be set up differently? Do they need a license?

What can we do as a cohesive unit to educate people?

From dogtime.com - Backyard breeder

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.

http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Wikipedia describes BYB's as:
Backyard Breeder is a term used for breeders of dogs in a largely pejorative sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and dog club. It is used to refer to one of the groups usually deemed not to be a Reputable Breeder.
It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm.
This type of breeder is usually regarded by the Animal Welfare, ASPCA, and canine establishment as likely to exhibit one or more of the following faults:
Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of dog being bred.
Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or Co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations.
Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct working and show strains have emerged.
Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.
Excessive breeding from individual bitches, to the detriment of their health.
Sale of puppies with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.
Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing a dog that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.
Breeding of dogs for illegitimate reasons, such as for the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation.
Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for the puppies, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs.

From examiner.com - Backyard breeder - Breeds at least one pair of dogs together in the hopes of raising a litter.
http://www.examiner.com/x-21101-Coonhound-Examiner~y2010m2d23-Definition-of-a-dog-breeder-backyard-hobby-or-professional-and-puppy-mills

Have fun folks but play nice. ;)

I think that this is very appropriate since a pet forum is suppose to be informative and educational. This also will help people who purchased pets in such establishements - explain perhaps why their loved pets are ailing with certain behavioral or medical ailments.

Also - taking a dog from such establishments are not rescueing the said animal..well in a way they are but they are also only encouraging the practice. Reporting such places is doing all animals a better service then just purchasing them and letting it go.

Don't forget - puppymillers started somewhere..usually they started out as a byb..saw the profit and then went BIG.

Great thread 14+K.:thumbs up

I agree, this is a good idea! :thumbs up 14+

I think that Wiki descrbed BYB's perfectly, but for me its really the people who breed carelessly, random breeds, without concequences or concerns of any sort. :( It could be one litter or many - it's still wrong.

My :2cents:

I know in the US, anyone involved in the commercial sale of dogs is supposed to have a license that is issued by the USDA. This includes brokers. The USDA is supposed to inspect these kennels/brokers but IMO that doesn't happen - which makes the license not worth the paper it's written on. Most pet store owners will use that as a marketing tactic to sell their puppies though - "Our breeders are all federally licensed" kind of thing. Makes them sound like fine, upstanding breeders producing healthy pups.

IMO a byb is a breeder who breeds for profit, but who breeds only one or two breeds of dogs - and lots of times is breeding for specific traits without concern for the health risks (such as breeding for size or coat color or breeding "designer" mixes). In my mind, a mill is a large commercial operation breeding numerous breeds and holds a large population of "breeding stock". IMO you would see much more horrific conditions at a mill than at a byb's facility - although I'm sure there are byb's out there whose kennels would make your stomach turn. I think the ads you see in the newspaper or online offering puppies are mostly byb's - with some brokers for the mills thrown in there too.

For example - Hazel's breeder.........now that I know more, I would consider her a byb. While some of her dogs have had the genetic testing done, IMO her quest to produce bigger dogs, with more of them being the pewter or chocolate varieties, has created problems in her breeding lines. I've read that newfs are 50% more likely to suffer ACL injuries than most other breeds, and when newfs are line-bred that risk goes up even more. Hazel's breeder does quite a bit of line breeding - and it's showing in the puppies that she is producing IMO. IMO she thinks she is 'bettering the breed' but she's not.

Thank you Kandy. Very interesting information. I was not aware that the US regulated, or tried to, the breeding facilities. Or, more correctly, I think I was aware but forgot. :o
Do you think the biggest problem with not being able to regulate better is because there are not enough people trained to do the job? Or do you feel the people trained are in the pockets of the big time breeders?
There are more and more puppy mills popping up all the time. It seems to me the rules governing breeders need to be much more stringent than they are now. People get slapped with a small fine, their dogs taken away (hopefully), and within a month have opened another site somewhere nearby the first. :shrug: The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon. :(

Looking back 16 years ago I am now almost positive the breeder I got Keesha from was probably a byb. In those days not much was known about them. I went specifically looking for a bishon and Keesha just happened to be there. One tiny 10 week old silver toy poodle among a sea of white. Of course I fell in love on the spot. I got her for the bargain price of $300. Back then that was a lot of money. No papers though. That would have cost another $200. When Keesha turned a year old she started having seizures. We have dealt with them for a long long time. :( I have always wondered since then what health issues her parents had. The woman said she had no intention of selling her. She was "keeping her for a friend". So no parents on site.
Since joining Pets I have learned so much. But I still have tons more to learn.

The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon. :(

They are not interested 14k....and the Agencies that do are so understaffed it's not even funny...then when they do get to press charges they have the go to court, thus taking them off the road, defendant doesn't show, new court date set and it goes on and on until in the end the Judge passes sentence/or not in their absentia :rolleyes:

As far as BYB's, they are probably way better than Puppy Mills...I've seen lots of photos taken by people hands on in the field of BYB's and they ain't pretty....many of them don't even use their backyard but their home and live in the same squalor as the animals involved.

They are not interested 14k....and the Agencies that do are so understaffed it's not even funny...then when they do get to press charges they have the go to court, thus taking them off the road, defendant doesn't show, new court date set and it goes on and on until in the end the Judge passes sentence/or not in their absentia :rolleyes:

As far as BYB's, they are probably way better than Puppy Mills...I've seen lots of photos taken by people hands on in the field of BYB's and they ain't pretty....many of them don't even use their backyard but their home and live in the same squalor as the animals involved.

That's a shame Chris. I wonder how many people have to step forward before they are willing to do something. I realize the agencies are understaffed. It's not a job I would be able to stomach. I truly appreciate the ones that do put themselves in the forefront to try to improve things. Give that girl of yours a giant hug for me please. The things she sees..... :(:( We are only on the sidelines looking in most of the time.

That's a shame Chris. I wonder how many people have to step forward before they are willing to do something. I realize the agencies are understaffed. It's not a job I would be able to stomach. I truly appreciate the ones that do put themselves in the forefront to try to improve things. Give that girl of yours a giant hug for me please. The things she sees..... :(:( We are only on the sidelines looking in most of the time.

Let me tell you 14+K, that there are rescues or individuals that actually 'deal' with byb's, millers or even brokers to get some of these animals. In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.

all my dogs were/are from bybs. Brina was on her way to the spca with her litter mates. I've recieved puppy mill doggies/puppies to hand over to rescues. I'm really not sure what the thread is about, I do agree with the meaning of byb's and puppymills that you posted 14+kitties. My grandmother had a registered kennel many moons ago, I use to help her with the nose printing (identification back in the old days)

You'll see her yourself in the summer 14k, you can give the hug then, she might have cooties :laughing:

In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.

I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.

Let me tell you 14+K, that there are rescues or individuals that actually 'deal' with byb's, millers or even brokers to get some of these animals. In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.

So how can they call themselves a rescue? I thought a rescue was there to keep dogs/cats from being euthanized or from facing other perils? If they are taking from the bybs and millers are they not just aiding those same people?

all my dogs were/are from bybs. Brina was on her way to the spca with her litter mates. I've recieved puppy mill doggies/puppies to hand over to rescues. I'm really not sure what the thread is about, I do agree with the meaning of byb's and puppymills that you posted 14+kitties. My grandmother had a registered kennel many moons ago, I use to help her with the nose printing (identification back in the old days)

As I stated when I started the thread -
In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for. - the most important part of the statement being to help educate.
I am in no way trying to start an argument. Just an honest debate about bybs. There seems to be a huge misconception about what they are and what is just an "accidental" breeding.

You'll see her yourself in the summer 14k, you can give the hug then, she might have cooties :laughing:

I can't wait!! I love that girl!! And her momma too! :thumbs up They are both special peeps. :grouphug:

This is from No Puppy Mills Canada

The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.

The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.

Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.

Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.

Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.

Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble:

the parents likely have not been screened for health problems

puppies usually are not sold with contracts and no future support to the buyer

the breeders are not in it for the long haul

They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help.

Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a back yard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder.

I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.

It is not stopping the cycle. If it is not reported based on all the vetting that is done on these dogs saved from further hardships (which is evidence in itself) then it is allowed to continue. And ask yourself the question: what dog is taking the place of the one that is being relieved of these hardships?

It is not stopping the cycle. If it is not reported based on all the vetting that is done on these dogs saved from further hardships (which is evidence in itself) then it is allowed to continue. And ask yourself the question: what dog is taking the place of the one that is being relieved of these hardships?

Purely Hypothetical:

An agent goes to a call, pup in distress. They know the person involved is not going to relieve the pup of his distress, the person would rather kill the pup (legal if one hit does it, thus not causing suffering) than spend a dime.

What do they do?....Write orders to be complied with in 5 minutes and go back and find dead pup.......OR......pay $50 and save a life?

It's a fine line BenMax.

From what Ive seen, A BYB (In most cases) is a Dog owner that has good intentions and doesnt have the knowledge to actually know why breeding their dog/s is wrong..

They have dogs that they ether breed on purpose, or just let them get pregnant by a neighborhood dog and Give away the puppies or sell them.

Alot of them think they are doing good in the world by bringing in puppies to sell/give to people.. Cuz lets face it, Who doesnt love a cute puppy?

To most people in the world, A dog having puppies is just a natural thing. The majority of people whom S/N their dogs arent doing it to prevent pet overpopulation, but do it because they dont want to deal with puppies.

Im sorry but I dont see every BYB as money hungry.. Alot of them Actually feel they are doing something good by Carrying on the blood lines of there well mannered dog.. Even though , their German shepherd or yorkie or whatever doesnt have the temperment they should have or the conformation they should have..

I dont think they are monsters.. I hate when people see somebody breeding there dog and right away say " SHUN SHUN ! *GASP* What kind of selfish creature are you for breeding your dog? You Must REALLY love money to put your dog throug such a horrid thing! Call the SPCA right away! "
While the owner is just siiting there like WTF did I do?

Ive known alot of dogs that have puppies when ever went into heat, but they were SO well taken care of in every other aspect of there life and I used to fawn over there puppies and couldnt wait for them to have more so I could see more puppies.

All of us here were uneducated about these things at some point.
And most of these Horrid BYBS are just that. Uneducated.

They may ask money for puppies. But unfortunatly that is Normal in this society.. So why should they think its wrong?

Purely Hypothetical:

An agent goes to a call, pup in distress. They know the person involved is not going to relieve the pup of his distress, the person would rather kill the pup (legal if one hit does it, thus not causing suffering) than spend a dime.

What do they do?....Write orders to be complied with in 5 minutes and go back and find dead pup.......OR......pay $50 and save a life?

It's a fine line BenMax.

It is a fine line but what you are describing is one incident. Not to mention, if the pup is killed is there not something in the criminal code for animal cruelty that can be applied? If the testimoney of the agent is that the pup could have been handed over but instead killed by the person who is in possession of the dog - does this carry any weight at all in the judicial system? And how about neglect for not ensuring that the pup is properly vetted?

The case you are describing is very different than those that KNOW who the millers, byb'ers or brokers are.

What about reporting it? Is that not what we always tell people to do when they know something wrong is happening?

Sorry Babymomma, without appearing disrespectful, I think you are a bit misguided......prefers to think nice things about people which isn't a bad thing at all. But misguided nevertheless.

Thank you Kandy. Very interesting information. I was not aware that the US regulated, or tried to, the breeding facilities. Or, more correctly, I think I was aware but forgot. :o
Do you think the biggest problem with not being able to regulate better is because there are not enough people trained to do the job? Or do you feel the people trained are in the pockets of the big time breeders?
There are more and more puppy mills popping up all the time. It seems to me the rules governing breeders need to be much more stringent than they are now. People get slapped with a small fine, their dogs taken away (hopefully), and within a month have opened another site somewhere nearby the first. :shrug: The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon. :(

While I think a good portion of the problem is staffing, I also think that some of it is American's attitude of not letting government interfere with private business. Sadly, the laws (for the most part) still consider pets in the same light as livestock - they are possessions, and their owners allowed to do as they see fit and that includes breeding indiscriminately.

I think we keep seeing more and more mills because the demand is not going away. As one mill gets shut down, 2 more take it's place. It's got to start with educating people on where that cute puppy in the pet store window came from, or why you should not buy a puppy from an ad in the newspaper or an online ad. The trend of celebrities to have 'purse dogs' isn't helping anything, and of course every year after the large dog shows, whatever breed takes best in show suddenly sees a rise in demand. Humans are fickle - we see the newest remake of 101 Dalmations, and suddenly they are the "in" breed, we see celebrities we admire with "x" breed, and that's what we want too. We won't see puppy mills as a thing of the past until we quit lining their pockets, only when it is no longer profitable will they shut down.

While I can certainly understand someone letting their heart talk them into buying a puppy just to remove it from horrible living conditions - sadly that is just putting the money in their pockets. IMO they don't care where the $$ are coming from, and it allows the cycle to continue. Even when those people sell some of their breeding stock, they are just going out and replacing it so that they can continue to mass produce puppies. Like the owner of one pet store here told me when I was criticizing him for selling puppies, "people want little dogs, they want teacup puppies and they want them right now". :( :frustrated:

just because it's the natural thing to do doesn't make it right,,it's natural for humans to procreate too, but would you want your daughter getting knocked up every chance possible.

And yes we all think puppies are cute and smooshy, including the ones being put to sleep daily because people insist on breeding their dogs..breeders or yorkiepoo's and cockapoo's and every other poo you can name are not doing it for the goodness of the breed. they are doing it for money.

now adays for anyone to say they didn't know better is wearing blinders. With the amount of advertising, etc there is no way you couldn't know.

I dont think I said anywhere that I agree'd with it.. Just looking at it from the view of a normal everyday pet owner. :/

It is a fine line but what you are describing is one incident. Not to mention, if the pup is killed is there not something in the criminal code for animal cruelty that can be applied?

If the first hit does it, no cruelty, remember they are "property"

If the testimoney of the agent is that the pup could have been handed over but instead killed by the person who is in possession of the dog - does this carry any weight at all in the judicial system?

Like I said above, they are property.

And how about neglect for not ensuring that the pup is properly vetted?

That is when they write an order for it to be vetted, after issuing the order they have to leave the premises.

What about reporting it? Is that not what we always tell people to do when they know something wrong is happening?

Yep and that is the right thing to do and for the most part the problem is resolved one way or another....but not always, you know as well as I the cruelty laws suck and until such time that animals are not seen as property the people who try to enforce the weak laws that we have, have their hands tied by the LAW.

As for so called "rescues" who buy animals from BYB's or similar, that's a whole different can of beans.

Very very good points Chris. I cannot agrue them. Indeed the laws are very difficult to enforce and I do understand why some would pay to help the said animal in distress....

I personally report everything that I see. Yes - there is an impact...it may not be immediate, but over time places have been exposed. Do I think of all those that have suffered..yes, but I also know the ones that are saved today and not yesterday.

Great arguement Chris. I respect your input. Point well taken.:thumbs up

While I can certainly understand someone letting their heart talk them into buying a puppy just to remove it from horrible living conditions - sadly that is just putting the money in their pockets. IMO they don't care where the $$ are coming from, and it allows the cycle to continue. Even when those people sell some of their breeding stock, they are just going out and replacing it so that they can continue to mass produce puppies. Like the owner of one pet store here told me when I was criticizing him for selling puppies, "people want little dogs, they want teacup puppies and they want them right now". :( :frustrated:

Ok Kandy - that is what I wanted to say. Well put. Thank you for reading my mind!:thumbs up

Very very good points Chris. I cannot agrue them. Indeed the laws are very difficult to enforce and I do understand why some would pay to help the said animal in distress....

I personally report everything that I see. Yes - there is an impact...it may not be immediate, but over time places have been exposed. Do I think of all those that have suffered..yes, but I also know the ones that are saved today and not yesterday.

If everybody did the same, more could be achieved.

Great arguement Chris. I respect your input. Point well taken.:thumbs up

I respect your input greatly, you are a frontline worker, speaks volumes.

Kandy brought up the issue of Livestock, one of the reasons the Animal Cruelty Laws don't carry more punch is Livestock, which is a pretty cruel business as we all know.

Interesting convo....sadly my Masta is on the verge of walking through the door :yell:

no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada??

no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada??

I know that cruelty laws are Melinda....apparently Ontario has the best Animal Cruelty Laws in the country....there are Federal Laws but they are real weak even though they were updated last year.

In Ontario, the penalties are greater under Provincial Law than Federal.

all it takes is one phone call in cornwall to get action, I love our spca!! I wish all places could be like here

Babymomma - you are the new upcoming generation. All our hopes are that your generation picks up the slack and moves forward. Right our wrongs.

I see from what you post that us old timers still have our work cut out for us.

In saying this, My daughter is 18 years and very in tune with the way animals are treated. I am very proud to say that she is an animal advocate. She is aware of millers, byb'ers, brokers, and is a very active person in voicing her opinion to whomever will listen about petstores. She also refuses to eat certain animal products.

Hopefully the children of today can make the difference.

Kandy brought up the issue of Livestock, one of the reasons the Animal Cruelty Laws don't carry more punch is Livestock, which is a pretty cruel business as we all know.



So true - last year 2 men here tortured a killed one horse and severely injured another. They didn't get charged with any kind of animal cruelty, what they got charged with was destruction of property. If it would have been a dog or a cat that had died at their hands, the most they would've gotten would have been a small fine. The destruction of property carried a higher penalty, because the horses were worth more money in the eyes of the law. While I think that the laws governing livestock need to be given some teeth too - that's a whole other subject and one that the industry itself will fight tooth and nail to keep out of the public eye.

While I think that we have a long way to go in educating the general public, I do think the tide is slowly turning. I actually heard an ad on the radio this morning warning people not to buy puppies from petstores because it supports puppy mills. I have never in my life heard an ad like that on any of our local radio stations. Course when the locals hear that ad and go ask the pet store owner, he's going to make it sound like "he's not that kind of petstore" and John Q. Public will likely buy that, hook, line and sinker. :frustrated: :wall:

Great thread :thumbs up
I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.Me too :(

To most people in the world, A dog having puppies is just a natural thing. The majority of people whom S/N their dogs arent doing it to prevent pet overpopulation, but do it because they dont want to deal with puppies.

I'd like to argue that point. I don't think the majority s/n their dogs because they don't want to deal with puppies. I would like to think they speuter because they have educated themselves on what is best for their dog's health. I would hope the overpopulation issue would have impacted on them as well. Ethical breeders ask for a spay/neuter contract for a reason after all.


no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada??

Truly, post about what you would like. IMO both information to help others and our own thoughts are viable reasons. Maybe if people see/hear/read about what we have gone through with some of our pets' issues it will help them decide not to walk into that pet shop or the byb's yard.
We educate one at a time...

To most people in the world, A dog having puppies is just a natural thing. The majority of people whom S/N their dogs arent doing it to prevent pet overpopulation, but do it because they dont want to deal with puppies.
I'd like to argue that point. I don't think the majority s/n their dogs because they don't want to deal with puppies. I would like to think they speuter because they have educated themselves on what is best for their dog's health. I would hope the overpopulation issue would have impacted on them as well. Ethical breeders ask for a spay/neuter contract for a reason after all.:highfive:

IMO Irresponsible and Unethical BYB's (any one or all)

- are in it for profit
- often aren't breeding purebred dogs
- don't do the necessary health clearances on all of their breeding stock
- have little interest in screening proper homes
- produce pups with health and temperament issues
- don't offer health guarantees or don't offer a spay/neuter contract
- will not accept/demand that a dog be returned if for any reason ...
- separate the litters too early causing lifelong health and behavioral issues
- breed before they have a waiting list for pups
- not born/raised in a home but a barn, shed, cubicle or stalls
- isolated from each other mostly living in wired crates
- most never set paw on grass or have smelled fresh open air
- aren't exposed to different sounds, sights, people or situations
- fed poor quality food/minimal if any vet care to maximize profit
- sell puppies to pet stores

BYB's ultimately kill dogs - producing poor quality dogs will cost the committed owner thousands of dollars or sold to unprepared homes will land the dog in a shelter and euthanized.

I'd like to say that while a breeder may use contracts, and even specifying s/n, that alone does not make them a good breeder IMO. Hazel's breeder requires a contract for purchase, and she will take back any of the dogs she produces. However, her lack of concern over her line-breeding practices places her firmly in the byb category in my mind. I have learned the hard way that the presence of a contract does not necessarily mean an ethical breeder.

I'd like to say that while a breeder may use contracts, and even specifying s/n, that alone does not make them a good breeder IMO. Hazel's breeder requires a contract for purchase, and she will take back any of the dogs she produces. However, her lack of concern over her line-breeding practices places her firmly in the byb category in my mind. I have learned the hard way that the presence of a contract does not necessarily mean an ethical breeder.You make an excellent point!

I'd like to say that while a breeder may use contracts, and even specifying s/n, that alone does not make them a good breeder IMO. Hazel's breeder requires a contract for purchase, and she will take back any of the dogs she produces. However, her lack of concern over her line-breeding practices places her firmly in the byb category in my mind. I have learned the hard way that the presence of a contract does not necessarily mean an ethical breeder.

I used the word ethical hoping that it would rule out the ones that aren't. We all know how easy it is to sign a contract. We also know sometimes it's pretty easy to weasel your way out of said contract. IMO an ethical breeder does not breed without knowledge of the breed; does not breed with intent to mix dogs of questionable behaviour; does not breed two breeds together; and most importantly does not breed without the dogs being bred having passed all health checks. There is a lot that goes into being an ethical breeder. I guess that's why it's so hard to find one. :(

Wasn't directing that at anyone, just noticed that for lots of folks, the use of a contract is on the list of a good breeder - and I agree, a good breeder will always use a contract. I just meant that the use of a contract itself does not mean the breeder is a good one.

It is really hard to find a good breeder - I think the best place to start is with the regional or national club for your chosen breed. They have member listings and have strict requirements for membership. I thought I had done my research, checked references, read the contract beforehand, made sure I saw where the pups were housed, where the breeding stock is housed, etc., etc. I still ended up with an unhealthy dog. I realize that even ethical breeders will throw an unhealthy pup now and again - but we've had 3 dogs from this same breeder, all 3 from the same lines, and all 3 have/had health problems. First was Lacey, who had to be pts at 19months due to total kidney failure (vet said birth defect); then my son bought Parker, who has elbow displaysia but wasn't diagnosed until 2 yrs ago (at 3yrs of age). She gave us Hazel as a replacement for Lacey a few months after we brought Parker home. It was after Parker was diagnosed that I really got upset. I've tried to convince her to at least quit breeding that line - but she insists that the line is fine and I've just been "unlucky". I started doing research on the laws in her state, and that's when I figured out that she was not a member of the regional newf club. I have to ask myself why? And I think the answer is that she won't/can't meet their requirements.

Wasn't directing that at anyone, just noticed that for lots of folks, the use of a contract is on the list of a good breeder - and I agree, a good breeder will always use a contract. I just meant that the use of a contract itself does not mean the breeder is a good one.

It is really hard to find a good breeder - I think the best place to start is with the regional or national club for your chosen breed. They have member listings and have strict requirements for membership. I thought I had done my research, checked references, read the contract beforehand, made sure I saw where the pups were housed, where the breeding stock is housed, etc., etc. I still ended up with an unhealthy dog. I realize that even ethical breeders will throw an unhealthy pup now and again - but we've had 3 dogs from this same breeder, all 3 from the same lines, and all 3 have/had health problems. First was Lacey, who had to be pts at 19months due to total kidney failure (vet said birth defect); then my son bought Parker, who has elbow displaysia but wasn't diagnosed until 2 yrs ago (at 3yrs of age). She gave us Hazel as a replacement for Lacey a few months after we brought Parker home. It was after Parker was diagnosed that I really got upset. I've tried to convince her to at least quit breeding that line - but she insists that the line is fine and I've just been "unlucky". I started doing research on the laws in her state, and that's when I figured out that she was not a member of the regional newf club. I have to ask myself why? And I think the answer is that she won't/can't meet their requirements.

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience. I agree she should not be breeding that particular line. I suppose there is not much legal action you could take to at least recoup your money? How can you be "inlucky" three times? Makes you wonder what her other customers' luck is like. :shrug:
Oh, and I know you weren't directing that at anyone. :thumbs up

kandy did you check for titles...going to the kennel club is a good place to start when looking for a breeder.

kandy did you check for titles...going to the kennel club is a good place to start when looking for a breeder.

Yes, I checked that before I committed to buying from her. She's got some champion dogs in the blood lines - but none in the last few generations. All the dogs are AKC registered. Once Parker was diagnosed, I downloaded the 5 generation pedigree on all 3 dogs and compared just to see how much line breeding was going on. I don't have my research in front of me, but if I remember right - there were like 12 different dogs that appeared more than 27 times in the lineage. :eek: We didn't pay full price for Hazel (just the difference between what Lacey was and what Hazel's price was) and she did refund that to me when I called her about Hazel's knee - I donated it to the local HS. When Parker was diagnosed I told her that I absolutely did not want any money back from her, what I wanted was her word that she would quit breeding that line.

I signed a contract when I bought my beagle from a breeder, she was hunting stock and he was breeding for a wide chest...she at 3 months didn't have it so he was getting rid of her, my contract stated that at any time he saw fit he could have her bred with one of his own studs....dummy here signed it and also that if she got ill I could not take her back to try to recoup my losses (paid a whole 50 bucks for her) this was 20 yrs ago, by six months I had her spayed *L*

Yes, I checked that before I committed to buying from her. She's got some champion dogs in the blood lines - but none in the last few generations. All the dogs are AKC registered. Once Parker was diagnosed, I downloaded the 5 generation pedigree on all 3 dogs and compared just to see how much line breeding was going on. I don't have my research in front of me, but if I remember right - there were like 12 different dogs that appeared more than 27 times in the lineage. :eek: We didn't pay full price for Hazel (just the difference between what Lacey was and what Hazel's price was) and she did refund that to me when I called her about Hazel's knee - I donated it to the local HS. When Parker was diagnosed I told her that I absolutely did not want any money back from her, what I wanted was her word that she would quit breeding that line.Good for you, did she give her word :fingerscr ? So buying a registered AKC puppy doesn't necessary mean it comes from an ethical breeder, just means the parents or grandparents were purebred?

Yes, I checked that before I committed to buying from her. She's got some champion dogs in the blood lines - but none in the last few generations. All the dogs are AKC registered. Once Parker was diagnosed, I downloaded the 5 generation pedigree on all 3 dogs and compared just to see how much line breeding was going on. I don't have my research in front of me, but if I remember right - there were like 12 different dogs that appeared more than 27 times in the lineage. :eek: We didn't pay full price for Hazel (just the difference between what Lacey was and what Hazel's price was) and she did refund that to me when I called her about Hazel's knee - I donated it to the local HS. When Parker was diagnosed I told her that I absolutely did not want any money back from her, what I wanted was her word that she would quit breeding that line.

I wonder at what point ethics hit the road and greed took over? :(

A lifetime ago, when I was young an infatuation with everything Emily Carr led me to a puppy mill ( how could I know) selling Old English Sheepdogs.
For the next 16 years we struggled with my boys various health issues.
In every city I lived the first connection I made was with the veterinarian.
The cost of his care over the years was many thousands of dollars but did not compare to the heartache, tears and sleepless nights.
It saddens me greatly to think after all these years such practices are still allowed.
The impact on the lives of the pet and the owner is life long.
:rip:Texas Jamboree Storm "Toby"

That's right, Golden_Girls. Being CKC or AKC certified only means that the parents were purebreds of that pup, it doesn't certify or guarantee anything in regards to how ethical the breeder is. From my understanding, most reputable breeders do have their pups CKC or AKC registered, but any BYB can register their pups as CKC/AKC registered, which I think often leads someone to think they are purchasing a pup from a reputable breeder when in fact it can mean quite the opposite.

This is a great thread! So often there are alot of gray areas between a BYB and a reputable breeder and I think this is helping clear some of those murky areas up. As someone mentioned, having a contract does not alone imply that the breeder is reputable, but I think some good guidelines have been posted that well lead you in the right direction. Unfortunately, some reputable breeders are not reputable eitheir, so its really up to the individual to do their homework and go by their own feelings too. If you meet a breeder and they have all the criteria, but you get a bad feeling, leave!

The same can be said for rescues... quite often I think everyone assumes that every SPCA, rescue, humane group etc. is ethical, and they all aren't... always best to do your own thorough homework ;)

Unfortunately, some reputable breeders are not reputable eitheir, so its really up to the individual to do their homework and go by their own feelings too. If you meet a breeder and they have all the criteria, but you get a bad feeling, leave!

The same can be said for rescues... quite often I think everyone assumes that every SPCA, rescue, humane group etc. is ethical, and they all aren't... always best to do your own thorough homework ;)

Very good statement. And you are correct sadly. Homework, word of mouth, personal experience and that of others is the key. Following your gut never stears you wrong. You know the old saying: if it walks and talks like a duck..then it's a duck.

Ontario has the best animal cruelty laws...I have to disagree with. Yes, they have have been updated...but the best....

ACO22

Ontario has the best animal cruelty laws...I have to disagree with. Yes, they have have been updated...but the best....

ACO22

Who said otherwise :confused:

Ontario has the best animal cruelty laws...I have to disagree with. Yes, they have have been updated...but the best....

ACO22

I think all provinces could do better...but Ontario's laws seem somewhat more advanced than here in La Belle Province.

Who said otherwise :confused:

Ontario AC laws are laughed at from other provinces, organizations, people in the field, etc.

ACO22

I would also add that having titled dogs does not mean they are healthy. Since most kennel clubs place more importance on conformation than health, IMO they encourage breeding practices that place the health at risk.

That's why I've come to the conclusion that being a member of the national & regional clubs for your chosen breed should be a 'must have' on a checklist for what makes a good breeder. The breed clubs not only require the dogs to be properly registered, and include requirements on having titled dogs for breeding stock, but they also address the health issue by requiring testing for health issues common to that breed on any dog that is going to be bred. Granted, I suppose a breeder could falsify records of testing - but I would think that most would not go to that trouble since most buyers would not be checking on that anyway.

Also, the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) has a public database. This is the organization that rates hips, elbows & knees based on specific xrays taken by qualified vets and submitted to them. There is another testing organization, which does not allow the public to see the records - but I can't think of the name of that one. The OFA database allows you to search on the name of a kennel, or the name of a dog and will give you ratings on each test performed on that dog. It includes the orthopedic testing as well as heart testing. That database gave me some very useful information when I was doing research on Hazel's blood line.

No, GG - Hazel's breeder did not give me her word that she'd quit breeding that line. She continued to say that there was nothing wrong with that line and that I was just unlucky.

So much of this is ignorance and the need for instant gratification on the part of the consumer--please know that I hate using the word consumer for people that should be making a life-long commitment to a family member, but cash does change hands. People have the mentality that they want a puppy and they want it now. The pup is cute, so why be concerned about possible health issues.

We got Cass as an adult because the breeder was reputable and didn't want to breed her due to a confirmation flaw (gay tail). Although I did not sign a piece of paper, we had a verbal agreement that I would have her spayed within a set time. You would not believe the number of people/friends/neighbors/strangers who thought I was crazy to spay this beautiful dog. I was told frequently that she would make beautiful pups with my 13-year-old male! :eek: I was told to lie to the breeder about spaying her and that I could make lots of money on her puppies--people always knew a friend who would want one. Cass was spayed within one month of coming to us--I am a person of my word. I just can't believe the attitudes of people about puppies. I have a dog that a breeder with 25 years experience deemed unworthy of reproduction, yet my neighbors thought I needed to ignore this and create curly-tailed puppies with great grandpa!

Cass is a wonderful companion and very smart. I am blessed to have her in my life. I do take her places with me--walking trails in the park, pet supply stores--and people stop me and ask questions. She isn't a common breed in my area. I get asked by total strangers if I am going to breed her and then get told that they want a puppy. Where I think, "Yeah, right," I'm sure others see dollar signs.

I really want a second dog back in my family, but I also know that I will be waiting since I am on "the list" from the reputable breeder. If I wanted instant gratification and the accompanying heartbreak, I could probably find a dog within a month. I won't do that. I strongly suspect my rescue Scottie was product of a BYB or mill. She was plagued by health issues and she broke my heart.

And for the people in the states, beware of the CKC registration. There is a questionable registry called the Continental Kennel Club that uses the CKC abbreviation. It is a popular BYB and mill registry. So if you are not in Canada, make sure you ask which CKC.

I read somewhere where someone registered themselves as a purebred St. Bernard with the Continental Kennel Club - just to show that it is nothing but a sham. But good point ScottieDog!

I have also had people tell me that I was crazy to spay Hazel and neuter Parker - that we could have made tons of $$ off puppies. Or have someone tell me that they would've liked to breed Hazel to their "insert breed here". :frustrated: I tend to get very ticked off over those kinds of comments, or if I overhear people talking about how much money they are going to make off their dogs puppies. :wall: :(

IMHO - there is a HUGE difference between a REPUTABLE breeder and an ETHICAL breeder.

In my search for a good breeder to get a puppy from, I was pointed towards several people who had a "reputation" of producing very nice puppies. The ones that go into the show ring always do very well, blah, blah, blah. But nobody could tell me what the puppies were doing after they got that CH. at the front of the name. Well, beyond pumping out more puppies, that is. Or "reputable" breeders who bred dogs who did well in the ring and had all of their genetic testing done but had never, ever had a dog in a training class and had no idea if they were tempermentally sound enough to do the job they were intended to do.

A backyard breeder is generally thrilled to share their wonderful family pet with the general public. "Fluffy and Fido are just beautiful and so very sweet! Every one we know would just love to have a puppy from them!" They have no idea what a breed standard is, what a temperment test is or a clue as to what genetic issues their breed of choice (if they actually have purebred dogs!) are prone to.

As to AKC and Can.KC papers - the only thing they mean is that the puppies are bred from two dogs of the same breed. Well, providing the breeder doesn't use a different dog's papers to register a litter of mutt puppies. Neither club is going to send someone to every breeders house to look at puppies before registering them. It really isn't that hard to use the registration number from a dog to register a litter even if that dog wasn't the sire or the dam of the litter.

Ontario AC laws are laughed at from other provinces, organizations, people in the field, etc.

ACO22

And yet, when you do searches you find this......

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2009/03/02/c4870.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html

Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services
Ontario's Animal Protection Law Strongest In Canada


<<
McGuinty Government Includes Specific Coverage For Law Enforcement
Animals
>>

TORONTO, March 2 /CNW/ -

<<
NEWS

Ontario now has the strongest animal protection law in Canada.

The Provincial Animal Welfare Act, which took effect on March 1, 2009:
- Establishes standards of care for all animals.
- Introduces penalties for causing harm to any animal including jail
terms of up to two years, fines of up to $60,000 and a potential
lifetime ownership ban.
- Creates a specific offence for causing harm to a law enforcement
animal, such as a police horse or dog.

Other key elements include:
- New provincial offences for causing or permitting distress to an
animal.
- Authorizing the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to
Animals (OSPCA) to inspect places where animals are kept for
entertainment, exhibition, boarding, sale or hire, including zoos,
pet shops and circuses.
- Requiring veterinarians to report suspected abuse and neglect, and
protecting them from personal liability for doing so.
>>

The act amends the OSPCA Act and marks the most significant changes to
animal legislation in the province since 1919.

QUOTES

"As a society, we won't tolerate neglect or cruelty to any animal. The
act recognizes that principle and extends protection to law enforcement dogs
and horses that help rescue Ontarians, keep drugs out of our communities or
patrol our parks and streets."
- Community Safety and Correctional Services Minister Rick Bartolucci
(http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about_min/bio/bio.html)

"Today is an historic day in animal welfare in our province. The Ontario
government has clearly demonstrated their support for the life-saving work of
the OSPCA. The society looks forward to working on behalf of Ontarians to
address concerns for the well-being and humane treatment of all animals."
- OSPCA Chief Executive Officer Kate MacDonald


And this from your own site -

http://www.ontariospca.ca/1-bill50.shtml

Nova Scotia maybe now can take that title away from us as of Jan, 2010.

http://spcans.ca/news/press_releases/20100122.html

However, this thread is about BYBs . It is not a debate over which province has the best animal cruelty laws. We can talk about that in another thread. Thanks for your cooperation.

Let me tell you 14+K, that there are rescues or individuals that actually 'deal' with byb's, millers or even brokers to get some of these animals. In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.

I agree with you BenMax and we fell into that trap. We unknowingly set out to go to a breeder who was recommended by a friend of a friend. It was only when we got there that we realized that she was a BYB, she wouldn't let us in to the house, and after seeing the inside when someone opened the door, I was glad because I would have gotten my boots dirty. I saw one dog (which I think was the bitch) and she was old, very heavy and filthy. The lady went and got 2 puppies (when she told me she only had 1 male left in our telephone exchanges) out of a dilapidated barn where other farm animals were being kept and would not let us near the barn.

We walked out because your first thought is to get the heck out of there, and came right back because after seeing those 2 little 10-week old puppies in such bad shape, we just couldn't leave them behind, paid $1400 for both, and got them out. We felt we at least saved 2

Did we felt guilty for encouraging this kind of transaction? yes. Those people count on the emotions of suckers like us.
Would the guilt have been greater if we had left them there? even greater

When I reported her, I was told that I had <taken the last 2 pieces of evidence> and that they had much bigger ones to go after.

When we were solicited for donations at the door once from SPCA, I told them I had already made the donation and I offered to give the guy the breeder's name. He wouldn't take it.

My husband stopped giving his monthly contribution to the Humane Sociaty and told them the reason.

at 9 1/2, my little guy is very sick (recent diagnose of diabetes) with multiple complications because of a compromised auto immune system due to untreated severe case of mange when he was a puppy. We continue to spend a lot of money to give him the care and quality of life that he deserves.

We spent a few thousands of our girl to give her hip surgery that allowed to walk and run for the past 9 1/2 years.

Would I do it all over again? I don't know but I can tell you that we have never looked back on our decision and have enjoyed our 2 furry friends trememdously.

buddingartist - I can understand completely. When you have compassion and heart, it is very difficult to not try and save an animal. I don't blame you, I understand completely.

But let me tell you (to put your mind at ease)..the evidence that you 'took' (boy that is a stretch of the word since you paid so much), would not have made a world of difference. Usually they are after the 'big fish' and this would not have fallen within their interests.

You are in a rock and a hard place. Though I still disagree with it..I understand it.

But let me also put a spin on this. For HS or rescues that take in these dogs (or pay for them) why is the vet report not good enough to seize? If there is proof of neglect, abuse...then there is enough evidence one would think..or is there?

But let me also put a spin on this. For HS or rescues that take in these dogs (or pay for them) why is the vet report not good enough to seize? If there is proof of neglect, abuse...then there is enough evidence one would think..or is there?

I think the biggest problem is that the organizations who are able to do this would tell you their hands are tied. The laws governing byb's and puppy mills are not strong enough to hold up in court. I truly believe nothing will change unless we are able to persuade our government, not this one 'cause he doesn't seem to do too much of anything except raise taxes, that this is unexceptable. Our pets need to be looked on as more than property or livestock. It's not going to happen on a Provincial level. It needs to be Federally mandated. JMO

Buddingartist, I don't know where you live, but I don't understand why the spca would not investigate....the so called "big fish" that they receive calls on are so few and far between, most of their calls in this area are the "small fish"......That being said in this Province any establishment selling animals is open for inspection rights.

If people in general when they go to a BYB to purchase an animal and notice that the conditions are not kosher they SHOULD report it with no hesitation whatsoever......this will help close BYB's, once they have an eye on them, that eye remains there.

There is a member on this board, with all the education that different members try to provide, still went ahead and bought a puppy last year from a BYB that s/he was a bit leery of the conditions that the dogs were living.....with encouragement from different members to report this BYB, s/he didn't and still went ahead and purchased the pup :shrug: :wall:

It needs to be Federally mandated. JMO

We all know that ain't gonna :censored: happen.

We all know that ain't gonna :censored: happen.

I know. And that is so sad. :(
I'm getting myself in a great frame of mind to go to work in. If the one that bought those kitties from the store says anything....... :yell:

Tell them "I don't want to talk about it"....no point getting het up about 14k, some folks are just oblivious, that's the way they deal with "their world" :frustrated:

It's all good. I can shut my mouth occasionally y'know. :rolleyes:

It's all good. I can shut my mouth occasionally y'know. :rolleyes:

:laughing:.........

[QUOTE=Chris21711;900308]Buddingartist, I don't know where you live, but I don't understand why the spca would not investigate....the so called "big fish" that they receive calls on are so few and far between, most of their calls in this area are the "small fish"......That being said in this Province any establishment selling animals is open for inspection rights.

If people in general when they go to a BYB to purchase an animal and notice that the conditions are not kosher they SHOULD report it with no hesitation whatsoever......this will help close BYB's, once they have an eye on them, that eye remains there.

As I knew I SHOULD I did just that and the <evidence and targetting bigger ones< is the answer I received. We were living in Toronto and used a Toronto vet when we got our babies.

I think using the vet avenue makes a lot of sense. Our vet confirmed that our little guy was about 1 to 2 weeks from dying of malnutrition aggravated by the untreated mange. They thought we had lost our mind when they evaluated our dogs and we told him we didn't want show dogs, we just wanted to save 2 and help them throgh with their health problems such as hip displasia, heart murmur, hairline hip fracture, respitory problems, anal sac problems, mange, undernourished.

Maybe you are right and she is now out of business. That would be my wish

So just to put a bit of a spin on this... what do you call someone who calls themselves a "rescue" but all of the animals that end up being rescued are then being bred by the "rescuer"? These include dogs, pot bellied pigs, horses, etc. The reasoning behind it.. gotta make some money back on them. IMO that is a BYB in capital letters. Interesting way of looking at rescuing, isn't it?

So just to put a bit of a spin on this... what do you call someone who calls themselves a "rescue" but all of the animals that end up being rescued are then being bred by the "rescuer"? These include dogs, pot bellied pigs, horses, etc. The reasoning behind it.. gotta make some money back on them. IMO that is a BYB in capital letters. Interesting way of looking at rescuing, isn't it?

:eek::eek::eek:. How is that rescuing :frustrated:. That is a BREEDER, period.:mad:

As I knew I SHOULD I did just that and the <evidence and targetting bigger ones< is the answer I received. We were living in Toronto and used a Toronto vet when we got our babies.

Just an assumption on my part....since you were living in Toronto at the time, the call would have been made to the Toronto Humane Society, up until June of last year their Agents covered Toronto...am I right?

I think using the vet avenue makes a lot of sense. Our vet confirmed that our little guy was about 1 to 2 weeks from dying of malnutrition aggravated by the untreated mange.

Under the new laws that were enacted last year, a Vet is obliged to report any suspected abuse cases.....hopefully, slow but surely we are moving in the right direction.

Maybe you are right and she is now out of business. That would be my wish

My wish too Buddingartist and I only wish the best for your two little guys :)

So just to put a bit of a spin on this... what do you call someone who calls themselves a "rescue" but all of the animals that end up being rescued are then being bred by the "rescuer"? These include dogs, pot bellied pigs, horses, etc. The reasoning behind it.. gotta make some money back on them. IMO that is a BYB in capital letters. Interesting way of looking at rescuing, isn't it?

That's not rescueing - that's perverting the perception of a rescue to further your own personal agenda. IMO that's even worse than a byb. I can call myself the Queen of England too - doesn't mean I have any legitimate claim to the title. :frustrated:

Unbelievable :frustrated:I can call myself the Queen of England too - doesn't mean I have any legitimate claim to the title. :frustrated:LMAO!!!