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Anyone Fined By Their Municipality ?

HelenNutmeg
February 23rd, 2010, 09:49 AM
Like many here I run the rescue out of my house and with fosters.. my municipality only allows three dogs .. I was fined last year for having two extra dogs in my place after they came into my yard then up on my deck and snapped pictures through my patio door of the dogs in my kitchen barking as they were frightened of this intruder snapping pictures.. Well the other day I was washing my hair and I heard the dogs barking wildly so I put a towel on my hair and went to look.. only to find these two people in my yard headed for my deck again.. I went and grabbed my camera so I would have evidence of this .. they paid me absolutely no mind.. as I took their picture peeping through my kitchen patio door.. yesterday I was hit with a $1400. fine for extra dogs.. now the last time I went to court the judge told me that in the bylaw I could have a dog who was licensed elsewhere here for up to 6 weeks.. these dogs were licensed.. and were going into foster on that weekend as both had just been through surgery..
Here are the pictures I took..
http://bassethoundrescuechronicles.blogspot.com/2010/02/violated-again.html Have any of you gone through this craziness ?

Helen
BHRQ

Love4himies
February 23rd, 2010, 10:00 AM
Don't they need a warrant to go on your property and do that :eek: :eek: :eek:.

Isn't the pretty much the same as a peeping tom? What if you were doing the deed with your partner :eek::eek::eek:

3iggys
February 23rd, 2010, 11:01 AM
My municipality was trying to quietly pass a bylaw that gave them the right to enter any property without notice. The bylaw also included the # of dogs allowed on a property. I have 4 dogs - will need a "kennel license" over and above the price of tags for the dogs ($500.00). That will only cover the extra dog allowed (3 is the max). If I had 5 dogs it would be $1000.00 and so on. Just a money grab. I haven't told my municipality about the dogs and my neighbors know about them HOWEVER..... in the spring there will be new neighbors down the road and who knows what will happen. Oh yes, that bylaw I am talking about - the property owners in the County (a very large county) protested and took the County officials to task. The bylaw has been put on hold for a while but rest assured it won't poke its ugly head for quite a while as we are now aware of what they are trying to do - take away our freedom & rights. I plan on moving in the summer anyway.:cry:

Bina
February 23rd, 2010, 11:21 AM
That sure looks like trespassing to me.
Next time call 911 and scream that there are strangers at your door.

Love4himies
February 23rd, 2010, 11:44 AM
That sure looks like trespassing to me.
Next time call 911 and scream that there are strangers at your door.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: That's funny.

Cathy1
February 23rd, 2010, 11:46 AM
Where I live the city workers, gas companies, hydro,police, people like that are allowed to enter the property. I do not believe they should be taking pictures through the window. Usually the by-law officers only come around if someone has phoned in a complaint and if they can't get an answer at the door then they will enter the property and take pictures for proof that there is a law being broken. Our by-law states only 3 dogs per household and someone that lives a few blocks away has had 5 dogs for the past 9 yrs. but a new neighbor moved in and complained about the barking and was fined for having too many dogs and had to give up 2.

Frenchy
February 23rd, 2010, 01:34 PM
omg the nerves !! :frustrated: I can't believe they're allowed to do this :wall:

if only they would put that much effort to look out for abused and neglected dogs tied up in people's backyard :mad:

I should really lend you Churchill , they wouldn't dare step a foot in your backyard ;)

the gang
February 23rd, 2010, 02:10 PM
boy this sucks, makes me a little nervous, brenda and the pins

aslan
February 23rd, 2010, 02:11 PM
Where I live the city workers, gas companies, hydro,police, people like that are allowed to enter the property. .

No they are not, people just think that they are allowed. Just as the police are not allowed to just enter your home of out buildings without a warrant. Helen we have had a problem with bi-law officers and bell, and rogers, etc..We sought legal advice..put a LARGE 'no trespassing ' sign on your gate/s. Call the powers that be and inform them that their employee's are NOT allowed in your yard without coming to your front door first. This way you're covering your butt. Next time they appear at your home, if they walk into your yard call the police and have them charged with trespassing.

Frenchy
February 23rd, 2010, 02:13 PM
Next time they appear at your home, if they walk into your yard call the police and have them charged with trespassing.

:thumbs up

or .... if you have a shot gun .... would scare the heck out of them :evil:

:mwaha:

aslan
February 23rd, 2010, 02:16 PM
:thumbs up

or .... if you have a shot gun .... would scare the heck out of them :evil:

:mwaha:


lol, yup that would work too,,when the bell guy came here and was swearing at grace, etc,,she called me, i came home, she told me what happened..Funny how quickly he got down his ladder and left when i walked out into the yard with a crossbow in my hand and suggested it was time he leave.:frustrated:

ladies,,if you own dogs, and these people walk onto your property and your dog bites they can drag you into court. Not saying they'll win but.....oh and make sure it's no trespassing,,not beware of dog,,implies your dog is known to bite.

Chris21711
February 23rd, 2010, 02:56 PM
ladies,,if you own dogs, and these people walk onto your property and your dog bites they can drag you into court. Not saying they'll win but.....oh and make sure it's no trespassing,,not beware of dog,,implies your dog is known to bite.

Or a sign saying "DOG ON PREMISES'

Tundra_Queen
February 23rd, 2010, 08:23 PM
Helen, I would think that is totally illegal,,trespassing, peeping in windows, taking pictures?

What is that blue cover? Did they have to move that to take pics too? Do u have legal aid there cause if u do I'd go see a lawyer.

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. You do such good things for the poor dogs you rescue. :grouphug:

Dee-O-Gee
February 23rd, 2010, 09:25 PM
How violating Helen! :mad:

I agree with Aslan and a "No Trespassing" sign would be more effective that a "Beware of Dog" sign.

Couple years ago, I renewed our dogs licenses then 2 weeks later, the "patrol" came knocking on my door wanting to issue me a fine for not licensing. I had to run up to my filing cabinet to get my receipt to prove to him they were a bunch of morons and the left hand really needed to talk to the right hand! :mad:

luckypenny
February 23rd, 2010, 10:44 PM
.. now the last time I went to court the judge told me that in the bylaw I could have a dog who was licensed elsewhere here for up to 6 weeks.

Do you have any papers documenting what the judge told you? If so, bring them along (as well as a copy of the bylaw where this article is mentioned) when you contest the fine. If you've been given permission, then I don't see what the city's trying to accomplish :confused:.


As for them coming onto your property and looking through your patio door, omg, I would have freaked. I can't understand how that's legal without a warrant of some kind and without the presence of the police.

HelenNutmeg
February 24th, 2010, 07:11 AM
Helen, I would think that is totally illegal,,trespassing, peeping in windows, taking pictures?

What is that blue cover? Did they have to move that to take pics too? Do u have legal aid there cause if u do I'd go see a lawyer.

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. You do such good things for the poor dogs you rescue. :grouphug:

The blue cover is like a small Tempo.. to keep the snow/ice build-up away from the door so I can or we can get out.. the drifts on the deck can get quite high when it storms.. Safety.. No they did not move it it is bolted to the deck.. or it would blow away.
I'm going to get the local newspaper involved this time as well..

Golden Girls
February 24th, 2010, 07:28 AM
You might want to contact Janet 514 928.1573 kikodogrescue@live.com she's taking this city to court for the same thing your going through.

chico2
February 24th, 2010, 07:59 AM
Helen,OMG,I cannot believe the city would do this to you and the rescue-pups.
I don't know the By-Laws,but I know anyone entering my property,be it cable,gas-company or anyone else first knock at my door,of course if we are not home,they have a right to go in the backyard(I think).
Sneaking pictures of the inside of your house,must be illegal..

Something is very wrong here:wall:

A few years ago,I took pictures of a poor old Beagle,freezing outside 24/7,sent it to HS and they took action,but this poor dog was in the frontyard,clearly visible to everyone.
I sincerely hope this gets cleared up,that the city will leave good citizens be and go after some real law-breakers.

Dog Dancer
February 24th, 2010, 11:21 AM
I agree with the others that this does not sound legal - especially the taking pictures inside of your house part. I would put up a no trespassing sign (although it's kind of after the fact for this event, but for future events). I would also call Legal Aid or at least someone maybe from the local University Law society or something who could give you some direction. Look up the by-laws on line and see if you can find the section on having dogs from out of jurisdiction. Then it would come down to the city having to prove you had those other dogs for more than six weeks would it not?? It's just wrong all over it truly. Can you lock that gate?? Or would it impede the utility people who legitimately have to get access??

Bina
February 24th, 2010, 01:26 PM
First thing I would do is put a lock on that gate. I don't like to take chances with anybody opening a gate and letting a dog out in error.
Hydro, Bell, etc. can all phone first or knock on the front door away from the dogs.
In both Hudson and St. Lazare I encountered pissy neighbours...But when I lived in Rigaud I actually had good "doggy" neighbours: one side had a Weimaraner and my other side had a GSD. We all had minimum 1 acre lots with good fencing, so no problems at all.
Good Luck with this. You deserve a break.

aslan
February 24th, 2010, 01:42 PM
helen don't know if you misunderstood Tundra's question about the blue cover..looking at the two pictures, the man did pull the tarp corner back to be able to see in the door. I would be inclined to call the police and show them the photographs. Looking up laws, these workers trespassed and committed invasion of privacy. If you inform the police now least that happens is there is a record on file, best sinario charges are laid against the two workers.

buddingartist
February 24th, 2010, 02:17 PM
This is just so offensive that they would put you through this.

I thought I also saw that they had to pull the tarp away in order to take pics of the inside of your house. If that is not illegal, I don't know what is.

I'm with the others about protecting yourself by putting up a sign.

If only they were as responsive on calls about <puppy mills<

Good luck

totallyhip
February 24th, 2010, 11:13 PM
I'm so sorry that you are going thru this. It is frustrating and scary. I also have 4 dogs of my own and often have a foster or 2 or 3. Our gates are locked and nobody can get into our back yard without a key. If they are that ballsy to climb the fence then I think they deserve a good ass kickin. And that would probably be from my husband.... I would be angry too if I were you. keep us posted on this. I certainly think that if your dogs are not causing any problems in the neighbourhood they should not be coming around. We are very careful but sometimes it just takes one ass hole neighbour that calls it in. You might want to consider if you have someone in your area that is doing this to you.

Golden Girls
February 25th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Helen,OMG,I cannot believe the city would do this to you and the rescue-pups.
I don't know the By-Laws,but I know anyone entering my property,be it cable,gas-company or anyone else first knock at my door,of course if we are not home,they have a right to go in the backyard(I think).
Sneaking pictures of the inside of your house,must be illegal..

Something is very wrong here:wall:

A few years ago,I took pictures of a poor old Beagle,freezing outside 24/7,sent it to HS and they took action,but this poor dog was in the frontyard,clearly visible to everyone.
I sincerely hope this gets cleared up,that the city will leave good citizens be and go after some real law-breakers.I'm not sure how illegal this was. I'm thinking they may have rang the bell (while you were washing your hair) in response to a neighbour's complaint (maybe barking?) seeing you've already been ticketed for too many dogs I'm almost sure legally they are now allowed to get proof as to whether or not your over the limit again. 2nd offence = $200 each for a total of $1400 means you have 7 over the legal limit? Here in LaSalle AC officers can and will seize anything over 2 on the spot with the help of a police officer.

I'm not saying their not A$$holes but they are city employees. I've been on candid camera just for allowing my dogs paw on green space therefore couldn't fight the multiple tickets I received :shrug: I tried filing harrassement against my AC and the police wouldn't even take my complaint, it's crazy

The thing with animal control they do not like to be showed up because their job is selling or pts'g lost or surrended animals while others like the OP are trying to save them so they target with the help of neighbours to anyone doing this, so corrupt :yell:

Golden Girls
February 25th, 2010, 07:50 AM
If only they were as responsive on calls about <puppy mills< No kidding :frustrated:

aslan
February 25th, 2010, 09:43 AM
I'm not sure how illegal this was. I'm thinking they may have rang the bell (while you were washing your hair) in response to a neighbour's complaint (maybe barking?) seeing you've already been ticketed for too many dogs I'm almost sure legally they are now allowed to get proof as to whether or not your over the limit again. 2nd offence = $200 each for a total of $1400 means you have 7 over the legal limit? Here in LaSalle AC officers can and will seize anything over 2 on the spot with the help of a police officer.

I'm not saying their not A$$holes but they are city employees. I've been on candid camera just for allowing my dogs paw on green space therefore couldn't fight the multiple tickets I received :shrug: I tried filing harrassement against my AC and the police wouldn't even take my complaint, it's crazy

The thing with animal control they do not like to be showed up because their job is selling or pts'g lost or surrended animals while others like the OP are trying to save them so they target with the help of neighbours to anyone doing this, so corrupt :yell:

the fact helen got off of the first fine due to the fact they are fosters not her own private pets, then the original charges shouldn't even be on record, if they are then the fact the case was dismissed would also be on file, so this wouldn;t be the second offense thus they still have no right to trespass or peek in her windows. now me being me, they would have gotten some pretty interesting photo's. i'm not shy and i would have walked right up to the door nude and i would have opened the door.

Golden Girls
February 25th, 2010, 10:02 AM
the fact helen got off of the first fine due to the fact they are fosters not her own private pets, then the original charges shouldn't even be on record, if they are then the fact the case was dismissed would also be on file, so this wouldn;t be the second offense thus they still have no right to trespass or peek in her windows. now me being me, they would have gotten some pretty interesting photo's. i'm not shy and i would have walked right up to the door nude and i would have opened the door.Unfortunately she did not get off and was fined $428.00

As posted Kiko Rescue who also lives in this same burrough has obtained a lawyer as she too keeps getting harrassed by the same Animal Control Officers, maybe they can help each other regarding over the limit verses foster dogs :fingerscr

aslan
February 25th, 2010, 10:20 AM
now the last time I went to court the judge told me that in the bylaw I could have a dog who was licensed elsewhere here for up to 6 weeks.. these dogs were licensed.. and were going into foster on that weekend as both had just been through surgery..
Helen
BHRQ

this is what i read, i don't see where she got a fine, i did see her mention the other woman later on in the thread.:shrug:

Frenchy
February 25th, 2010, 11:13 AM
i'm not shy and i would have walked right up to the door nude and i would have opened the door.

and then scream : RAPE !! RAPE !!

that would get them off the property :thumbs up

Love4himies
February 25th, 2010, 11:37 AM
Mona_b seems to know a lot about the law, perhaps PM her :shrug:.

Even if they ring the doorbell and nobody is home, I still don't think that gives them the right to look into windows or take pictures without a warrant. Police could use that defense all the time to peek into windows and take pictures. "We rang the doorbell and nobody came to the door, guess you didn't hear it, or your bell is broken" :rolleyes:. However, I am not a lawyer :shrug:

If they were on the street and taking pictures through the window, I think that is legal (visible to the public). They can also come up to your front door and ring the doorbell and if there is a window on the door, they can look through that. However, because they had to move the tarp out of the way, I really believe what they have done is illegal and you should consult a lawyer.

However, the exception would be if it is believed to be an emergency in the home.

lUvMyLaB<3
February 25th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Oh wow, i am so sorry this has happend to yot. I cannot imagine how violated you must have felt to see them at your window like that.
I do however that they are allowed to enter your yard when investigating to gather evidence. Like if you complained about a neglected dog in a yard, they would enter to check, nothing can be damaged. They cannot enter your house without permission unless there is a warrent.
The taking pics, is scary, and i dont know if moving the tarp and taking pics of inside is o.k. Call a lawyer and get a free consultation and ask.

I think the best thing to do is contact the media. Here you are SAVING animals, helping the very people you feel violated by. Kind enough to open your home to a couple babies in need for a few days. Are any of the dogs under 6 months? Usually pups dont count toward your total.

Municipalities need to start some kind of fostering permit. Where with a letter from a rescue group you could get a free permit that allows you 3 extra pets that can each stay 6 months.

Wow, i am just so sorry for you, and angry! Here they dont push if its a foster, and ignore it, unless their is a complaint. Do you have any terrible neighbor complaining and making a stink to them that is making them push it this far? Keep us updated. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Tundra_Queen
February 26th, 2010, 12:35 AM
Helen, I was wondering if your patio door is the only place they can see into your house? I'm thinking that there is liquid stuff u can put on glass that will cover all the glass in a frosted pattern so no one could see thru it. It still let's light in thought. My parents used it on the bathroom window so no one could see in it. You could put masking tape around an area u want to use as a peep hole to see outside as the frost stuff wouldn't cover that part when the tape was on it. Then u could just cover the hole when you weren't using it or not home. You just use a scrapper to get the frost stuff off when u don't need it anymore. Just a thought.

Debbie

Shaykeija
February 26th, 2010, 12:50 AM
I am kind of lucky. My bylaw officer is also the guy that calls me to pull dogs. He knows how many I have and has told me to licence the rest for out of town. If I ever get fined, I will go to jail....I need the time off ( no holidays for 8 years) and free dental..lol

HelenNutmeg
February 26th, 2010, 03:55 PM
Well I did get our local media involved.. they did an article in our paper.. scroll down its page 4 I think..

http://www.yourlocaljournal.ca/pdf/issue.pdf

and I have been in touch with Janet at KiKo.. we are going to try something together as well..

Thank You for all the kind words and encouragement .. it means allot..

Frenchy
February 26th, 2010, 05:06 PM
Good for you Helen ! :highfive:

14+kitties
February 26th, 2010, 05:21 PM
Very good article HelenNutmeg. :thumbs up Took most of page five.
This paragraph is interesting......
“Our inspectors ring and knock but if
there is no answer they are still allowed
to go onto the property,” said Martel.
“They can take pictures of the property,
even the inside of the building.
Whatever somebody else can actually
see, the inspectors are allowed to take
pictures of.”
Did they knock? Of course they will say they did. Also, the part about "whatever somebody else can actually see"; the only way they "saw" was to move aside your temp covering. That should not have been allowed.

TQ's suggestion of a frosted covering is a good one. There is a MacTac covering you can buy to cover windows. They can snap all the pics they want but all they will see is shadows. You could say the shadows were cats or furniture. :rolleyes:

Talk about having your rights violated! You should have the right of privacy in your own home. :frustrated: Disgusting!

totallyhip
February 26th, 2010, 06:00 PM
I am kind of lucky. My bylaw officer is also the guy that calls me to pull dogs. He knows how many I have and has told me to licence the rest for out of town. If I ever get fined, I will go to jail....I need the time off ( no holidays for 8 years) and free dental..lol

Yes we are lucky too. Our bylaw guy comes to our house whenever I find strays. And we had a in depth conversation about our dogs and rescue. He knows we have 4. But God forbid if he ever leaves

totallyhip
February 26th, 2010, 06:01 PM
Good for you! I sure hope this article helps you

erykah1310
February 26th, 2010, 06:10 PM
Where I live the city workers, gas companies, hydro,police, people like that are allowed to enter the property. I do not believe they should be taking pictures through the window.
Being a Hydro employee in Ontario and being allowed on any property that has hydro because of our property allowances I can assure you we are NOT allowed to take pictures of anything, even with the home owners consent.
I took a picture of a very pretty black dog with bright blue eyes with the owners consent and got in SOOO much crap from my supervisor, she called the customer to see if my story had matched up.
the only things we are allowed to photograph on peoples property is meters, lines, poles ect. Things related to the company.

I would be so freaked out having people just walk on my property like that and snapping pics.
Could you put a lock on the gate to keep them out?

Macomom
February 26th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Excellent work Helen. Now call the CBC!

t.pettet
February 26th, 2010, 07:36 PM
Excellent article that shows you are being victimized by your municipality and that won't stand well with the homeowners who pay taxes. I would make reference to money being wasted by the people in charge who are harrassing a credible charity organization that benefits the township by taking animals from shelters and a adopts them out to loving families.

Cathy1
February 26th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Being a Hydro employee in Ontario and being allowed on any property that has hydro because of our property allowances I can assure you we are NOT allowed to take pictures of anything, even with the home owners consent.
I took a picture of a very pretty black dog with bright blue eyes with the owners consent and got in SOOO much crap from my supervisor, she called the customer to see if my story had matched up.
the only things we are allowed to photograph on peoples property is meters, lines, poles ect. Things related to the company.




I didn't say they could take pictures. I said they can come on the property. We had problem with neighbors throwing garbage into our backyard and when we contacted the police and by law officer we were told it was our word against their's so we put up cameras in our windows and caught them. Once the neighbors knew they were caught they had their lawyer send a letter stating that we had to remove our cameras because it showed part of their yard. We refused so they took us to court and the judge said there is no law saying we cannot take pictures of other peoples property but we cannot have our cameras viewing in peoples windows, which we didn't, it only showed the area where they would stand to throw the garbage. So our cameras are still up but not turned on. We also had the by law officer called on us because the neighbor said our shed was built illegally. An officer showed up with pictures on his camera and I asked how he got the pictures because we have locks on our gates and he said he used a ladder and took them from the neighbors yard. The law states that our shed has to be 4 ft from any property line and ours is 3 ft 6 in. which we fought and won. That's when we were told by a judge that they are allowed to take pictures but are not allowed to take pictures inside a building because that falls under the privacy issue.

HelenNutmeg
February 26th, 2010, 08:14 PM
I'm not sure how illegal this was. I'm thinking they may have rang the bell (while you were washing your hair) in response to a neighbour's complaint (maybe barking?) seeing you've already been ticketed for too many dogs I'm almost sure legally they are now allowed to get proof as to whether or not your over the limit again. 2nd offence = $200 each for a total of $1400 means you have 7 over the legal limit? Here in LaSalle AC officers can and will seize anything over 2 on the spot with the help of a police officer.

I'm not saying their not A$$holes but they are city employees. I've been on candid camera just for allowing my dogs paw on green space therefore couldn't fight the multiple tickets I received :shrug: I tried filing harassment against my AC and the police wouldn't even take my complaint, it's crazy

The thing with animal control they do not like to be showed up because their job is selling or pts'g lost or surrended animals while others like the OP are trying to save them so they target with the help of neighbours to anyone doing this, so corrupt :yell:

The tickets were 3 of $400.00 .. 3 of them for the three extra dogs they saw.. even though 2 in the yard were mine.. The extra $200.00 for unlawful use of my home.

Golden Girls
February 27th, 2010, 09:00 AM
Well I did get our local media involved.. they did an article in our paper.. scroll down its page 4 I think..

http://www.yourlocaljournal.ca/pdf/issue.pdf

and I have been in touch with Janet at KiKo.. we are going to try something together as well..

Thank You for all the kind words and encouragement .. it means allot..Great article! Your city and these officers should be ashamed of themselves, disgusting. Hopefully it'll encourage people to help by fostering for you :goodvibes:

Tara2221
February 27th, 2010, 03:49 PM
HelenNutmeg.......what about contacting Fifth Estate......I wonder if they would be interested in this type of story......Municipality harassing small animal rescue instead of going after the backyard breeders, throw away and abusive people ???? Worth a call maybe......we had to watch Earl Jones maybe an animal story might wake up a more people about the work you do and your cause...!!!

Kay9
February 27th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Where I live, it's my understanding that people who have rescue animals are exempt for those laws. Do they know you have rescues?

NoahGrey
February 27th, 2010, 05:06 PM
The thing with animal control they do not like to be showed up because their job is selling or pts'g lost or surrended animals :

I hope you are not making a general assumption of all ACO's. The HS that i used to work only Pts extremely sick and are injured animal..were meds or recovery and release is not possible. As for surrended animals...do you know what surrended means? When someone comes into the shelter and surrenders their animal, the animal is no longer legially yours, but the shelters. The HS can put this animal up for adoption.

For adopting out lost pets...the law states that every animal, that comes through shelter doors, has to be held as a stray for x amount of days. Once the stray hold is up, the animal becomes legially the shelters and can be put up for adoption. So shelters do not sell other peoples pets.

CHICO: We can not allowed walk into someones backyard.

However in the picture, I believe the guy is standing on public property. If so, he is not traspassing. For instance...I could stand at the end of someones driveway and take a picture of your dog in your yard. I am still on public property and the dog is in plain view.

ACO22

aslan
February 27th, 2010, 06:05 PM
ACO22 the pictures that Helen posted were from her back window, so he is on her property opening the gate, he then enters her backyard walks up onto her deck, pulls a tarp back and takes pictures through her back door window.. I was sooooo waiting for you to post to confirm they're not allowed on private property.:thumbs up

NoahGrey
February 27th, 2010, 06:58 PM
Oops sorry..didn't see the other pictures. I just scrolled to the first one.

ACO22

the gang
February 27th, 2010, 07:00 PM
helen contact c t v news, it was a great piece in the paper, brenda and the pins

Melinda
February 27th, 2010, 07:31 PM
we should all write letters to the editor, because you know the inspectors will be following it up to see if anyone is on their side

mona_b
February 28th, 2010, 11:58 AM
Helen, can I ask why you didn't confront them? I am assuming the pics you took of them are from the backyard?

Legally they did not have the right to take pics and snoop around.

As for the Police needing a warrent, not always. There are situations where one is not needed. And as for cruelty calls, again in certain situations pics can be taken. But this is with the cruelty investigators. They have the same authority as cops in laying charges. But that's a bit off topic.

I agree with the no trespassing sign. But I also suggest the beware of dog signs. Some people have misconceptions as to what this sign means. It actually is a warning stating that a dog lives there. I have one. My niece and her fiance(criminal lawyer) also have one as do all my family and friends as I have told them to put one up. This actually stops some fool from breaking in. Unless they want to get bitten. Or if they do get bitten, it lessens the chance of them wanting to charge you. I know a judge who actually threw out the case where someone was bitten. His reply was, did you not read the signs. :rolleyes:. Yes this from a Judge.

Frenchy
February 28th, 2010, 12:00 PM
hey MonaB , I have a question for you , I"ll pm you.

mona_b
February 28th, 2010, 12:04 PM
i'll answer it as best I can.:)

Golden Girls
February 28th, 2010, 12:55 PM
I hope you are not making a general assumption of all ACO's. The HS that i used to work only Pts extremely sick and are injured animal..were meds or recovery and release is not possible. As for surrended animals...do you know what surrended means? When someone comes into the shelter and surrenders their animal, the animal is no longer legially yours, but the shelters. The HS can put this animal up for adoption.

For adopting out lost pets...the law states that every animal, that comes through shelter doors, has to be held as a stray for x amount of days. Once the stray hold is up, the animal becomes legially the shelters and can be put up for adoption. So shelters do not sell other peoples petsACO22Not generalizing, speaking from experience and many of their methods here in Quebec. This petition letter to the Minister of Municipal Affairs - pretty much self explanatory http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/animal-advocates-demand-the-closure-of-a-kill-pound-using-the-gas-chamber

Golden Girls
February 28th, 2010, 01:16 PM
Where I live, it's my understanding that people who have rescue animals are exempt for those laws. Do they know you have rescues?It's important to realize that every province has their own by-laws. In the Montreal area they refuse to recognize rescues therefore we can only keep in our home the max pets by your muticipality. Anything over your limit you must have a kennel license but you cannot get one if you live in a residencial area because of zoning laws. Many still do but once your targeted they'll continue to harrass you. People I know have had to move.

Sophie Adoptions aka Lil'RickyMom another Montreal rescuer had a really hard time a few years ago with her animal control officer and kept getting ticket and ticket. I think she fought them in court, not sure the outcome :shrug:

Golden Girls
February 28th, 2010, 01:23 PM
But I also suggest the beware of dog signs. Some people have misconceptions as to what this sign means. It actually is a warning stating that a dog lives there. I have one. My niece and her fiance(criminal lawyer) also have one as do all my family and friends as I have told them to put one up. This actually stops some fool from breaking in. Unless they want to get bitten. Or if they do get bitten, it lessens the chance of them wanting to charge you. I know a judge who actually threw out the case where someone was bitten. His reply was, did you not read the signs. :rolleyes:. Yes this from a Judge.Mona, I was told to put a sign "beware of dog" because Utility Co's have a right to enter private property and should be aware of the danger prior to entering. Then I got a visit from my Animal Control and he told me with that sign he can seize my dogs because it's stating their dangerous? To add insult I was also told by him if my dogs ever bit anyone even a burglar on my property they would be pts? In any event I removed the sign :shrug:

Dog Dancer
March 1st, 2010, 02:54 PM
I don't see these signs many places, but you could always make your own, some say 'DOG IN YARD'. That's it. It just states the fact that there is a dog in the yard. No implication of danger. I would try that one over Beware of Dog. I sure hope you can get more publicity on this, it really is over the top the way they took the pics. I do believe you have proof they moved the tarp to take the pics. The fellow in the news article states they can take pictures of something everybody can see - well you can't see through your tarps without moving them. Good luck to you.

Tundra_Queen
March 2nd, 2010, 08:16 AM
Hi
I know I have seen signs saying "Dog on Premises", I don't know if that would be the same as Dog in Yard. But I would think it would be.

mona_b
March 2nd, 2010, 09:37 AM
Mona, I was told to put a sign "beware of dog" because Utility Co's have a right to enter private property and should be aware of the danger prior to entering. Then I got a visit from my Animal Control and he told me with that sign he can seize my dogs because it's stating their dangerous? To add insult I was also told by him if my dogs ever bit anyone even a burglar on my property they would be pts? In any event I removed the sign :shrug:

NO, AC can't seize your dogs because of the sign. And I don't know why you were told that..If that was true, then everyone I know with signs(including me) would not have their dogs.:rolleyes:

Again, the signs are WARNING people that there is a dog on the property. It's up to the person who wants to chance it. If a JUDGE will throw it out of court, what does that tell you?

And you can tell them that this came from someone who has been in Law for 20+ years.:D

Golden Girls
March 2nd, 2010, 09:48 AM
NO, AC can't seize your dogs because of the sign. And I don't know why you were told that..If that was true, then everyone I know with signs(including me) would not have their dogs.:rolleyes:I called the city and was told if the officer said it was a law ... it was. They couldn't be bothered to look it up and quite frankly I'm so fed up with Quebec and the lack of animal protection I can't be bothered anymore. The sign is down and that's it.

Again, the signs are WARNING people that there is a dog on the property. It's up to the person who wants to chance it. If a JUDGE will throw it out of court, what does that tell you?All it tells me is that judge is in Ontario, my dogs are here :shrug:

And you can tell them that this came from someone who has been in Law for 20+ years.:DI'll tell them if there's a next time :)

mona_b
March 2nd, 2010, 10:10 AM
I called the city and was told if the officer said it was a law ... it was. They couldn't be bothered to look it up and quite frankly I'm so fed up with Quebec and the lack of animal protection I can't be bothered anymore. The sign is down and that's it.

Then if I were you, do some research. To me, having the city say it is just not good enough for me.

Move to Ontario....:D

buddingartist
March 2nd, 2010, 10:27 AM
Nutmeg, have you thought of calling CTV news.

I have seen on occasions where they will cover stories on lost or stolen dogs, puppy mills, etc. What you are doing is really a <feel good story> and not everybody is dedicated to that extent.

Sometimes a little negative publicity goes a long way.

Good luck

binkybuff
March 2nd, 2010, 11:42 AM
Have been reading this thread, and although I haven't been charged with having too many animals, I have been warned with a ticket. :shrug:(4 years ago)

I had lost one dog, and was actually in the process of going down to get a licence for the new dog. Animal control was going by and checking licences, and (I was getting in the car with my dog), he checked, saw it was for my other dog. I got the warning. Even when I explained where I was going.

When I got to the police station, I bought my new dog her licence, and gave them the warning ticket, and said that I was upset about it, I thought the guy would have given me the benefit of doubt, but no.

The person I spoke to was nice about it, and told me, that they would look after the problem. A couple of days later, I had a police officer at my door, and he stated, he was just checking that the dog had her licence, that bylaw thought I was trying to pull a fast one. Anyway, the officer checked, saw that I had one dog, with a tag, I also showed him the cat licence, and he was totally satisified, left with a "Thank you, Maam. I appreciate your honesty." and left.

Haven't heard a word from bylaw since, and it is now spring, I expect him to be around checking again. I am ready for him this time.:thumbs up

take care
binky

Melinda
March 2nd, 2010, 12:22 PM
wow, I never realized they were so strict about it in some places!

HelenNutmeg
March 4th, 2010, 10:22 PM
Yes CTV.. The Globe & Mail.. Pulse News..

but as I am only one voice.. maybe if a few of you wrote to newspapers or tv .. radio.. whoever might help.. would be appreciated..

Helen

the gang
March 5th, 2010, 04:03 PM
count me in!!! i will get a letter of to c t v news good luck brenda.

Deauce
March 5th, 2010, 09:14 PM
I really can't believe the degree of misuse of privacy laws -if that is what I assume you are basing these on. Having a lot to do in the privacy business myself, and knowing what you have gone through, it can in no way be substantiated as plausible proof (they never asked for the registered tags of your dogs (they could easily have been registered elsewhere!! - you don't have to tell them, but it is a high probabilty, they can't deny),what they were actually looking at. If they never made an attempt to contact you personally (then how could they possibly know,if, or where they were registered???) Absurd to the endth degree!!! If you have a petition, count me in too! Fight them. With all your photographic and background proof, they don't have a leg to stand on.....lol but serious

MIA
March 21st, 2010, 10:17 PM
I think you should start Doberman rescue..... That might make them think twice..... Kidding aside I think what they are doing is disgusting and a violation of your privacy! I don't know if I can help but I will any way I can.

shibamom
April 3rd, 2010, 09:39 PM
How frustrating Helen.

Just to clarify a few things according to the CCC (Canada Criminal Code)

It is not illegal to enter someone's property without the intent to commit an indictable offence - whether or not the photography counts, I really couldn't say because I haven't dealt with that one before.

I could come onto the property of anyone here and build myself a little shanty shed in order to keep warm (although that is likely a bylaw infraction)~ it isn't an offense until I refuse to leave. It is an offense to refuse to leave someone's property when asked.

The whole "need a warrant" to enter a property is a very complex issue and not really applicable to walking onto property (photographing INSIDE a residence is diff). Police (and fire, ambulance) absolutely do NOT need a warrant to enter a property, dwelling, etc in many circumstances (ranging from 911 calls from a landline,etc) - BUT this rarely applies to municipal workers (the whole theory is that it is an imminent danger to someone's life)

Anyways, what I am trying to say is that if this happens, you need to contact the police to clarify this issue in regards to criminal offense and bylaws.

HelenNutmeg
April 4th, 2010, 11:27 AM
You know I wish I knew as much about legal ease as I know about bassets and animals.. I was really hoping someone once either reading or hearing me dilemma might offer some legal advice.. I'm waiting still for the " formal " letter and fine for the $1200.00 dog fines and the $200.00 fine for illegal use of my home.. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

shibamom
April 4th, 2010, 12:59 PM
You know I wish I knew as much about legal ease as I know about bassets and animals.. I was really hoping someone once either reading or hearing me dilemma might offer some legal advice.. I'm waiting still for the " formal " letter and fine for the $1200.00 dog fines and the $200.00 fine for illegal use of my home.. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hi Helen,

While it is not illegal to enter someone's property without the intent to commit an offense (the offense would be refusal to leave), I'm 99.9999% positive that the photography would constitute something - what that is, I'm not sure. In this instance, I would ask my supervising officer for advice. You can call your local police department/RCMP detachment and speak with either the dispatcher or even the watch commander (supervising officer) and they can tell you. The dispatcher will probably ask the watch commander anyways, I've never faced that question in 5 years!

Give it a shot...

HelenNutmeg
April 4th, 2010, 07:22 PM
Okay Thanks.. I will.. and let you know..

kiara
June 24th, 2010, 06:17 PM
I think that city officials in Quebec should start chasing after those who abandon animals all over this province, all year long, not good people that are helping them!!! I am a cat rescuer and already all the shelters and S.P.C.A are full and our "PROVINCIAL MOVING DAY (july1-st) AND DUMP YOUR PET ON THE STREET DAY IS COMING", this behavior is a total disgrace and people are getting away with it, because in Quebec there are no laws to protect animals !!! Please give generously to your local rescue or shelter and if you have time---- foster.

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Hi helen
My name is maria and i just move to montreal to reunite with my dauther after 16 years of separation, i am a former immigrant , so please don't mind my broken english
I was living in St.John's Newfoundland for 16 years, and i Have 3 ****-tzus for 7 years two of them i had since they was baby the third one i rescue since last year.
I am scary to loose my dogs , i spend all my savings to reunite with my dauther. i rent one apt here in montreal and the land lord toll my dauther that was ok have 3 dogs but he never wrote it so , i cannot live in the apt, i try to sublet it,but the real problem is that i am hiding myself and my 3 dogs in my dauther building wich you are not suppose to have them, now i am living like "Anne Frank;"
i have to walk with my dogs 5 :30 in morning and cannot leave the building until the next morning, it's a very bad situation once i never kill or still or even be a prisoner, i am free citizen, vote , organ donor, help SPCA in st.john's, ASPC< and Toronto human society. i cannot continous put more stress im myself and my dogs, and i cannot even foster , that's is amazing, if I will tell that to "Fidel Castro" he will laught on me, because i never hear that someone can dictate how many dogs you can have, if i can afford so be, who cares, if i was negligent fine, but my dogs are my life! it's simples that.
so, when i read you comments i decide to ask for help, because i do not know nobody here in montreal, and wich town here allow you have at least 3 dogs?
please , say something because i am in despair
i cannot came back to newfoundland, as i say i spend all my savings and lost my job as well, everthing to be with my dauther and my dogs as a family.
thank you so much
maria

BenMax
August 13th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Hi Maria,

I aswell have 3 dogs and 6 cats and our municipality DICTATES that I can only have 2 animals. I do not however hide my dogs as I own my own condo so I am in a better position. However, if someone where to snitch on me, I would be in very big trouble.

You will have to check the municipalities to find out how many animals you are allowed to have. Also, when renting, it's best to be honest about your situation. What I have done in the past when renting, was to make an appointment with the landlord, I brought my rottie with me, and when they saw how sweet he was, they allowed him in the rental.

I wish I had more to give you, but the only way to know is to ask.

You are in a tough spot for sure. I hope you find quick employment and enjoy your stay here in Montreal.

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 11:31 AM
Hi I just move to montreal a couples weeks ago and i have 3 dogs, and i found out that you are allow to have only 2? that's true? where in quebec allow you own 3 dogs/ and if i want foster some, what to do? that's ridiculos you do not see things like that in any comunist country , really!
please let me know something because i cannot go back to Newfoundland (free land) and i am not give up my litlle angels, so what do i do?

HelenNutmeg
August 13th, 2010, 11:35 AM
Yes good luck Maria..
My fines of $4200.00 came in yesterday.. I'm just beside myself..

HelenNutmeg
August 13th, 2010, 11:39 AM
Maria.. I don't know where you are but check communities in the West Island.. Pointe Claire.. Sommervale Gardens on Saint Jeans allows dogs..
Off island Hudson.. or Saint Lazare allow 3 + dogs..

BenMax
August 13th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Yes good luck Maria..
My fines of $4200.00 came in yesterday.. I'm just beside myself..

Are you kidding? How the heck do they justify 4200$ fine? That is absolutely ridiculous!

Frenchy
August 13th, 2010, 12:12 PM
Yes good luck Maria..
My fines of $4200.00 came in yesterday.. I'm just beside myself..

Are you kidding? How the heck do they justify 4200$ fine? That is absolutely ridiculous!

holy :censored: crap $4200.00 ? Animal abusers don't get fine 1/10 of that !! WTF ??? How did they come up with that amount ?

BenMax
August 13th, 2010, 12:13 PM
holy :censored: crap $4200.00 ? Animal abusers don't get fine 1/10 of that !! WTF ??? How did they come up with that amount ?

I was thinking the same thing. She is being treated worse than a criminal for heaven's sake.

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 12:15 PM
i am in montreal NDG, and I just lost my job so I move to Montreal to be with all my family, I will try to be honest with the landlord , like Benmax say, but i definetly look to be where i can have my dogs and foster others, and help the community , and i hope i can found a job , wherever i go
I would like to keep in touch with you guys because i will be a great help,
right now i am in a big turmoil, i have to wait to sublet the apt that i am paying and cannot live in there after i get that done i will move on, thanks for your guide and keep in touch, i do not know how to drive in montreal yet, that my first time here, and i can help driving dogs to foster homes, i can help in any way, but only when i got my place because now i am hiding me and the dogs so they cannot barking, it's a very difficult situation but i am not give up! take care!

Frenchy
August 13th, 2010, 12:17 PM
i am in montreal NDG, and I just lost my job so I move to Montreal to be with all my family, I will try to be honest with the landlord , like Benmax say, but i definetly look to be where i can have my dogs and foster others,

MTG , I'm afraid you won't be able to foster :( cities bylaws don't care if it's a foster , they'll count it as one of your dogs. I know , totally sucks and unfair. :(

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 12:26 PM
helen..those communities West island, point claire and sait lazare they are all french spoken? do we have SPCA down there? i definetly will check it out, thanks a lot, ops!! before i forget i read somewhere here that if you want have more dogs you should register yourself as you have a kennel? that's true?
good luck my friend and I think we should open a kennel , really!!! that's the only way to help, in this province, count on my vote to change those ridiculos laws

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 12:42 PM
You know what ,guys!?! montreal law need some smack, we are all canadians, pay tax, resposible, we should do some kind of moviment to attract peoples attention and change that! it's not fear to who want help any kind of animals paying fees? oh come on!!! we look like living in the "settle" times, come on!! something has to be done - the voice does the work and raise the bar! it's simples that! by the way i lost my job because some of montreal law,s , I had a good job and ask for transfer and everthing was great , my supervisor say that my transfer was done, just move out! then when i move here and introduce myself to the new provider, guess what?, nothing was accept by them, so anyway it's a long history and iam not worrie no more, almost died!lost a job in a blink of eyes, but right now, my dogs are my priority and concern, so here i am to fight for whatever need to be change, count on me!
Maria

Frenchy
August 13th, 2010, 03:06 PM
I know Maria , it sucks and doesn't make sense. I only know the limits in my area (south shore of Montreal) I live in the boonies (farmers & fields all around) here in Sherrington , I have no dogs limit , I can have as many as I want. But , all around , even if it's the same type of cities , it's mostly a maximum of 2 dogs ! Some places , if you buy a house where it's zoned agricultural , you can have more but not always !! It's different from city to city.

HelenNutmeg
August 13th, 2010, 05:58 PM
The fines are.. 7 @ $528.00 for dogs on my property.. over the limit.. May 19 & June 7
then 2 @ $264.00 Illegal use of my home..

Yes Maria.. we need more homes that will shelter dogs..
No West Island communities are English or bilingual its still a english stronghold..
Saint Lazare/Hudson same..
But I have to agree with Frenchie.. live rural and you have less problems.. Or on the Ontario border ..

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 06:57 PM
Hi helen
thank you so much, i am "Rural" person anyway, I was check the west island as you toll me. I just need fixe something here in Montreal first, then try rent something in West island, and they have jobs down there even thou i start volunteer , help the comunitie , somehow, then I will looking for job.
and i sure i wil found something. OMG! I am so happy now! i was think cross the sea again , very depressed, be far way from my dauther, it wasn't a good feeling, now, I am brand new, looking forward to meet you one day.
i am really appreciate what you do, and we both together , who knows, !?!? one mile start with one "paw"
and by moving to West Island i keep my babies and help foster too.
Good luck to you , my friend, and do not worrie, good things happen to good hearts, you just light my path , someone will light yours, that's the real law!
take care and thanks again
Maria

MTG
August 13th, 2010, 07:40 PM
Hi Frenchy
I haven't look the map yet, but in
your community south Shore accept 3 dogs? or two?sorry , i became blunt after i discover those odd laws , here in Montreal (QC)
i am gonna spend all my time search all communities in west island and make sure that i can take my little ones with me because what they are doing to helen is inexplicable, behind my comprehension.insane and brutal.
They should look for drug dealer, crime, prostituition, animal abuse,, gambling, violence against women, kids that disapear ( a lot here in QC) pedophile , those are big issues because compromise the citizen well being, really! right???? but foster dogs ??? it's something wrong somewhere, my dear!!

Frenchy
August 13th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Hi Frenchy
I haven't look the map yet, but in
your community south Shore accept 3 dogs? or two?sorry , i became blunt after i discover those odd laws , here in Montreal (QC)


In depends where in South Shore , there's many municipalities ... but in the suburbs , it's usually 2 dogs limit. Rural (which is much further) also 2 dogs limit but , some places , like in Lacolle , 3 is the limit. St-Bernard de Lacolle , 5 is the limit. But these places are near the US border and there's no jobs here. :(

West Island is where most of the rescues are. :) and it's much closer to Montreal , more jobs openings there also.

chico2
August 14th, 2010, 09:13 AM
OMG Helen,that fine is outrageous,what are you going to do:(
I can't believe this is what happened to you..
Can you fight it somehow?

MTG,I am sorry to hear about your troubles,but would not 3 small dogs be equal to 2 large dogs,I don't know what the limit is where I live,but often small dogs are ok,not fair to large dogs though.

Love4himies
August 14th, 2010, 11:57 AM
OMG, Helen :eek::eek::eek:, Frenchy is right, animal abusers get less than that. I would certainly be going to the press with the whole story :frustrated: Including how they got the pics (tresspassing as far as I am concerned).

This is just crazy :( :grouphug::grouphug:

MTG
August 14th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Hi Chico
very nice way to say that 3 small dogs are equal 2 big, but i have been search in all municipalitys here in quebec and they only allow 2 dogs, and hudson you cannot even take 3 :shrug: to a park, now?
frenchy say that in the rural areas are much better and after i check it out, she's right1 but there is no job, so i have 3 solutions for my problem :1) rent one apt close to my dauther and take 2 of my babies and leave one with my dauther ( i do not know if i can do it , because they want sleep with me) 2) move to windsor ,ON where i can found job and it's just 9 hours drive and I am free to have my dogs and the 3 one is go back to Newfoundland, where i can have many dogs I want, foster beagle,help my community, found job, and a bunch of good dog lover friends.
I want be here, i spend all my savings for this big move in my life,but it's very hard to help animals here, you be treat like a criminal, that's not life!!! Nothing worse them you live like fugitive without commit no crime, it dosn't make no sense, I am very dicouraged!

Frenchy
August 14th, 2010, 12:40 PM
:1) rent one apt close to my dauther and take 2 of my babies and leave one with my dauther

You don't have too ! You can register 2 of your dogs under your address , and the third one under your daughter's address. If , by any bad luck , the city sees you with 3 dogs , and ask you about it , you just say you have 2 and you're dog sitting the third one for your daughter :D

HelenNutmeg
August 14th, 2010, 02:13 PM
I'm going to fight it.. and if I cannot .. well I'm not thinking that far..

HelenNutmeg
August 14th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Maria... Yes you can only bring two dogs to the dog park in Hudson just for their own safety.. Its very hard to control 3 dogs should some dog get out of hand... There is NO number of dog law in Hudson.. Lots of people have 3 and more dogs.. with NO problem..

MTG
August 15th, 2010, 07:58 AM
Thanks Helen
I definetly consider to live in Hudson in that case and looking for job, also i was looking the rent and is same as here $ 700 for a small house/apt
I do not know how to go there i have to waiting for weekends whe my dauther and her husbund are off , so we can go there.
I know I am not in a good conditions right now, but is there anything that I can do for you?
I have a lots things from all over South America, i can give to you for nothing, is not really important for me right now, You cause is more important, so You can have a flea market, and get , I don't know, maybe $ 500 ? so , whatever we can get i hope help, unfortunately that's so I can do right now if You need my help, please let me know, because we are here for a great cause , and I want be part of it!
take care
Maria

MTG
August 15th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Heheheh, thanks frenchy, but is funny you mentioned that , because this morning (06:00am) i was walking with my litlle ones, and a police car came very slow and look at me, but he did not stop, but if he did stop. I will say: I am from newfoundland , my dogs have licence from St.john's, they have tag with st.John's address, they have tag from PetFinder, they can be found in Spain if they will be lost, and they have all the files from the vet from my province, thank you very much!!! so that was a good thing, but , yet, I will take your advice. i will take my dogs with my dauther and get their licence and rabin vacine, do everthing right! and like you say, I am looking after my dauther's dog while she's fighting in afganistan!!!! have a good day!!

chico2
August 15th, 2010, 08:25 AM
Helen,I was going to mention the media as well,like L4H,but I always do that,so I did not.
As soon as something about animals is in the papers,animal-lovers respond and hopefully the municipality will see the injustice in what they have done.
The whole episode,with them trespassing
,taking pics through the patio-door is outrageous and should be known to the public.

Golden Girls
September 8th, 2010, 08:52 AM
The fines are.. 7 @ $528.00 for dogs on my property.. over the limit.. May 19 & June 7
then 2 @ $264.00 Illegal use of my home

Make sure when you contest to: (1) Find out court date and room # (2) who is proscecutor/lawyer by calling 514.872.2964 fax your letter indicating why your contesting each infraction seperately to both proscecutor and Greffe de Cour Minicipale. This way no one can just :rolleyes: misplace your contestment. The proscecutor will call you verifying it's been received.

sigh good luck :fingerscr