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Question about number of litters and puppies' health

Mirela
February 21st, 2010, 07:45 PM
So, here is the situation - I have to pick a puppy and the breeder has two litters - a few weeks appart. The first litter is the first one for that momma-dog, while the later is the fourth one for the second momma-dog. The question is: does it matter?
Health-wise? Temperament?

From which litter should I pick?

Chris21711
February 22nd, 2010, 08:05 AM
Why not save a life and adopt a homeless dog, there are thousands waiting for a loving home :(

Melinda
February 22nd, 2010, 08:09 AM
check the mom and dads health certificates etc and go by that, look for the parents temperments , the breeder must have a vet that you can call to see about their hips, eyes...etc depending on what breed they are there are different health worries, a good breeder will try to breed to prevent those issues

Mirela
February 22nd, 2010, 09:05 AM
Why not save a life and adopt a homeless dog, there are thousands waiting for a loving home :(

Yes, you are right, but that is not an option this time, for good reasons.

Mirela
February 22nd, 2010, 09:11 AM
check the mom and dads health certificates etc and go by that, look for the parents temperments , the breeder must have a vet that you can call to see about their hips, eyes...etc depending on what breed they are there are different health worries, a good breeder will try to breed to prevent those issues

Thanks, we did all that and everything is fine with both litters. The only difference is the female's age (one is 4, the other one 8) and number of litters.
The only worry I have is that the breeder told us that, because this is the first litter of the younger female, she does not quite know what to expect in terms of puppy temperament. Health-wise everything checks out; I have seen the parents and will have the proper health certificates for the puppy.

Melinda
February 22nd, 2010, 09:15 AM
well then you go to see both litters, and see how best any of the pups interact with you, thats how I chose my last dog, 4 females, one aggressively bit (10 weeks old), one was too shy to come near us, I run a daycare so I have to be careful of dogs I choose, one completely ran crazy and was a tad over hyper, the one we chose was ummmm "not too swift", playfull and didn't use teeth even at that young age so she came home with us. Go by their ways and your lifestyle, I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.

Love4himies
February 22nd, 2010, 09:16 AM
Not sure why you can't adopt from a rescue/shelter but anyways.

I would think twice before adopting from this person. I find it hard to believe that a rep breeder would have planned to have two litters so close together knowing how much time one litter can take especially if something happens to momma :eek: soooooooo....:

Do your research on the breed and find out what they are genetically proned to and ensure both momma and dad have been tested. Try to get some references on this breeder, you'd be surprised what you can find out on the internet ;). Spend some time with the momma and pups to see how good of a momma she is and her personality and, if you can, the father of the pups.

aslan
February 22nd, 2010, 09:38 AM
I personally am with Chris and Love4 on rescuing a puppy instead, but since you say you CAN'T..I would find another breeder. Not only does having two litters so close together put up red flags on this persons ethics but so does the fact she is still using an 8yr old for breeding. Are these dogs akc or ckc registered, do they have ch. titles.

Love4himies
February 22nd, 2010, 09:50 AM
I personally am with Chris and Love4 on rescuing a puppy instead, but since you say you CAN'T..I would find another breeder. Not only does having two litters so close together put up red flags on this persons ethics but so does the fact she is still using an 8yr old for breeding. Are these dogs akc or ckc registered, do they have ch. titles.

I agree, 8 year old dog is like a 60 year old giving birth to octoplets :eek::(

shirley1011
February 22nd, 2010, 09:51 AM
Am I reading this correct...an 8 year old female having a litter?
Wow! I would certainly question that.

BenMax
February 22nd, 2010, 10:22 AM
The red flag right away for me is using an 8 year old for breeding. That in itself is off. I would get the heck out of Dodge and either rescue one or find an ethical breeder.

Bailey_
February 22nd, 2010, 10:32 AM
A reputable breeder will have all puppies temperment tested to give their future homes a better idea of what puppy will suit which family. They won't let YOU choose your puppy, they'll choose FOR you.

Mirela
February 22nd, 2010, 10:42 AM
well then you go to see both litters, and see how best any of the pups interact with you, thats how I chose my last dog, 4 females, one aggressively bit (10 weeks old), one was too shy to come near us, I run a daycare so I have to be careful of dogs I choose, one completely ran crazy and was a tad over hyper, the one we chose was ummmm "not too swift", playfull and didn't use teeth even at that young age so she came home with us. Go by their ways and your lifestyle.

Thanks, that's what I will do.

I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.

I'm not sure either, that's why I asked. I'm trying to do my "homework" and be as prepared as one could be.

Bailey_
February 22nd, 2010, 10:47 AM
I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.

It matters because a first litter means that as a breeder she couldn't tell you how the puppies will be when they're older or past the puppyhood age, compared to the dog a breeder has been using for a while.

Melinda
February 22nd, 2010, 10:51 AM
thanks Baily, I never thought of that!!

14+kitties
February 22nd, 2010, 10:51 AM
Maybe this article will help clear up some questions.
Personally I am with the others. Run for the hills away from this breeder.

http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/bronline/en_US/jsp/BO_Page.jsp?pageID=RLDP&articleID=54

As a veterinarian, I recommend my clients have their bitches spayed by 7 or 8 years of age (or younger if the bitch is no longer being bred) to reduce the risk of pyometra.

Pyometra is a deadly deadly disease. It is one I would never put a dog of mine through.

Gotta say I am also with the ones who say to rescue. There are many many purebreds being put down every single day due to no homes being available to them. And the cost would be much less than from a breeder. :confused: Petfinder is a great site to start looking. You would also be surprised what is available at your local shelter or from a rescue.

Mirela
February 22nd, 2010, 10:54 AM
Thanks all for your replies.

And sorry - I gave you the wrong info - the older female is 6, not 8 - I called the breeder after reading your replied and asked.

The breeder has help taking care of the litters - there are 4 adult human "grandparents" for the 8 puppies. I have seen the adult female dogs before the puppies were born. We have also visited the first litter and both the female and male dog were there during the visit - we spent about an hour in the house and I haven't seen any "red flags". The only one I won't be able to see is the second male, as he does not belong to this breeder.

Oh, and I did check the breeder and the dog-parents; all four of them are ckc registered, and have ch. titles - this is not only from the breeder but I have also found the dogs' names as participants in several shows.

Mirela
February 22nd, 2010, 10:56 AM
A reputable breeder will have all puppies temperment tested to give their future homes a better idea of what puppy will suit which family. They won't let YOU choose your puppy, they'll choose FOR you.

She might do that - we did not get to choose a puppy yet; this was the first visit - the puppies are 4 only weeks old now.

I will let you know.

Love4himies
February 22nd, 2010, 11:24 AM
Does the breeder know the second father well? Will the owner provide health certificate from that father, including any genetic testing?

I really think the only way you are going to be able to choose (if you are given the choice) is to spend time with each of the litters. Watch the litter with the first time momma closely and how she is with them.

Good luck.

Melinda
February 22nd, 2010, 11:35 AM
well you certainly have done your homework! Congrates on the new fur baby and good luck!!

hazelrunpack
February 22nd, 2010, 02:39 PM
I find it hard to believe that a rep breeder would have planned to have two litters so close together knowing how much time one litter can take especially if something happens to momma :eek: soooooooo....:

Just a comment on the timing. Sometimes breeders will do this in case something does happen to one of the dams. It's much easier to take care of newborn pups if there is a dam to suckle them, even if she's suckling a double brood. Straight formula isn't as good--and if there are available nipples, the pups get at least some natural milk with all the good stuff in it instead of just formula. Supplementation with formula can then help make sure everyone gets enough calories and takes some of the load off the remaining mother.

Melinda
February 22nd, 2010, 02:41 PM
my grams use to always have more than one litter at a time at her kennels. we'd do the little toe nails different colors to make sure we knew which pups belonged to which mom.....often the moms would feed each others.

t.pettet
February 22nd, 2010, 06:09 PM
Breeding at age 6 is pushing their luck, thats the absolute latest a bitch should be made to reproduce.

shirley1011
February 22nd, 2010, 06:23 PM
Breeding at 6 is a little old for my way of thinking too...and the first litter at age 4? something isn't right!

Longblades
February 23rd, 2010, 10:30 AM
Unless the second bitch's litter is a repeat breeding there is no way for the breeder to be sure of temperament for those puppies. Even then, puppies turn out differently amongst litter mates. All you can hope for is a guideline based on the breeder's observations.

Age 6 is not too old for a litter and age 4 is not too young, depending perhaps on the breed of the dog. Of more concern to you might be how closely together were the 4 litters bred of the older dog? Breeding on successive heats might mean puppies every 6 months for that dog. Opinion amongst breeders differs on whether successive heat breeding removes them from so-called "reputable" status. Some say OK, maybe once, some same never. Ditto for repeat breedings with the same parents. Some say it overpopulates the gene pool, others disagree.

It is also well within the realm of reality and "reputable" to have two litters at the same time. Perhaps the breeder is fortunate enough to have a source of income not dependant on full time work outside the home (retirement comes to mind) and can devote the time to puppies that others could not. There are many variables.

I think you need to consider that the word "reputable" has NO legal meaning as pertains to dogs and is only a compendium of commonly held beliefs. Those beliefs can vary tremendously between the parties involved. Use them as a guideline but don't get hung up if one is missed.

It sounds like you have done a lot of work on pedigree and clearances. Good for you. Do you have specific goals for this puppy? We did and that's why we have gone the purebred route. We wanted those health clearances.

Mirela
February 23rd, 2010, 07:57 PM
[......]
It sounds like you have done a lot of work on pedigree and clearances. Good for you. Do you have specific goals for this puppy? We did and that's why we have gone the purebred route. We wanted those health clearances.


No, I just want a healthy puppy for a family pet; it will not be breed nor shown. But, it's my first dog and I do not have experience in dealing with any kind of health problems, that's why I'm obsessing and trying to avoid as much as possible of the unknown.
The only reason I checked pedigree and clearances was that I'm hoping for a dog without genetic problems. I know how to deal with upset tummies and projectile vomiting :D (did my share of diaper changes and cleaning questionable stuff off my clothes :) )

Melinda
February 24th, 2010, 05:30 AM
what kind of dog are you getting?

mafiaprincess
February 27th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Breeding at age 6 is pushing their luck, thats the absolute latest a bitch should be made to reproduce.

I have no problem with 6 for a bitch depending upon breed. Many sight hound breeders don't start breeding careers till later as they are often longer lived breeds. I have more of an issue with breeding an excessive number of times in a dog's life than breeding a slightly older bitch.

Using older dogs to breed is often looked upon as better as they have longer to possibly develop health problems before being bred.

Too many breeders breed young a few times and then rehome their breeding dogs. They did health testing nothing came up and then re-homed the dogs before anything could come up so gee when I bred the dogs they were healthy. Not cool, but it happens a good amount.

mona_b
February 28th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Do I think it matters? Not if the Sire and Dam are of sound Temperment. And it doesn't matter if it's the first litter or the 4th. Breeders do TT(temperment testing) when the pups are about 49 days old. Alot goes into the testing. And with this, they will know what type of temperment each pup will have. And since this breeder already has bred before, they know what to look for. Even if she was a first time breeder, then her mentor would be there to help with the testing.

Have you been able to see the pups?

As for not seeing the Sire of the second litter, yes you can. Let this breeder know you would like to go see the breeder who has the Sire. I did this. This way you can see the temperment of the Sire and know the breeder.

Is this the first breeder you are dealing with? I know that it took me a little over a year to find my breeder. I went to shows and talked to many breeders.

What contracts does this breeder have?