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Not meaning to offend[B][/B]

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aslan
February 15th, 2010, 05:23 AM
Myself and others have noticed lately some members taking offense to comments made by others and would like to add our comments. I can't say if these comments are made out of prejudice or lack of information, but they are hurtful just the same. There were a couple comments made to do with homosexuality in a thread recently and i'd like to correct some things said or atleast how they were said.

The comment had to do with someone outing themselves and the backlash from it. First off kinda wondering how the person posting the comment felt this person should have " expressed " it. The way it was phrased made it appear that if you aknowledge your lifestyle you're too " active". So back in the closet we go.

The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. Seriously do you think we would choose a life where we are discriminated against, beaten (and yes it still happens), having to fight for any rights we have. Do you think Mathew Sheppard chose to be beaten and left to die. It is genetic plain and simple. Yes in Canada after a long hard fight we are now able to get married but ONLY in Canada. For years we had to pay school taxes but were not allowed to adopt. There are countries where people are killed for this, others where the gov't will pay for a sex change, etc. Gay is what we are not who we are. Anyone from Pets.ca who has met me in person knows, the person you see here is the person i really am. If you meet me and like me what does it matter what i do in the privacy of my own home. Believe me we don't want to sleep with every person we meet of the same sex just as you don't want to sleep with every opposite sex person you meet.

Just so i'm clear,,I AM NOT asking anyone here to out themselves for the sake of this thread. I am openly gay so i seemed the best person to post this. What i am asking from people not just concerning this topic. Think before you speak you may be hurting someone.

TacoGrl
February 15th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Myself and others have noticed lately some members taking offense to comments made by others and would like to add our comments. I can't say if these comments are made out of prejudice or lack of information, but they are hurtful just the same. There were a couple comments made to do with homosexuality in a thread recently and i'd like to correct some things said or atleast how they were said.

The comment had to do with someone outing themselves and the backlash from it. First off kinda wondering how the person posting the comment felt this person should have " expressed " it. The way it was phrased made it appear that if you aknowledge your lifestyle you're too " active". So back in the closet we go.

The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. Seriously do you think we would choose a life where we are discriminated against, beaten (and yes it still happens), having to fight for any rights we have. Do you think Mathew Sheppard chose to be beaten and left to die. It is genetic plain and simple. Yes in Canada after a long hard fight we are now able to get married but ONLY in Canada. For years we had to pay school taxes but were not allowed to adopt. There are countries where people are killed for this, others where the gov't will pay for a sex change, etc. Gay is what we are not who we are. Anyone from Pets.ca who has met me in person knows, the person you see here is the person i really am. If you meet me and like me what does it matter what i do in the privacy of my own home. Believe me we don't want to sleep with every person we meet of the same sex just as you don't want to sleep with every opposite sex person you meet.

Just so i'm clear,,I AM NOT asking anyone here to out themselves for the sake of this thread. I am openly gay so i seemed the best person to post this. What i am asking from people not just concerning this topic. Think before you speak you may be hurting someone.


You say "Gay is what we are not who we are"...fine then, why does it always seem to be the main focus in what gay people do/say? It seems that people know people are gay because they tell us in the first 30 secs of meeting us...we don't care.

The comments I made were not to hurt...they were the facts in what started a downward spiral for someone who was good at what they did...the PETA thing added to how that someone was already perceived from previous actions and away from mainstream she went. It was how she expressed it...the things she said about those who didn't really care either way...didn't really see why she was making such a big deal out of something that wasn't a big deal...something no one really cared about...most people said "what a beautiful voice" not "what a lesbian" and they bought her tapes/went to her concerts without a thought of her sexuality...until she started making people feel bad for not focussing on her "plight" as she perceived it...I was too busy enjoying her music to care...until it got to be too much drama.

Why exactly does sexuality even have to come into the picture anyway? Everyone has a talent and I don't really care what you do in bed...I don't go around "Hey I am hetro, love me or I'll sue you"...I don't have parades "celebrating" my sexuality...I and a lot of others just don't see the reason for all the hub-bub...you are who you are...enjoy life!

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:58 AM
wow talk about a generalization..can't say i've ever walked up to anyone and said " hi i'm trish and i'm gay" i do speak of my wife by her name as i'm sure you do your spouse. Come to think of it i don't know any of my friends who introduce themselves that way..yes there are idiots in the gay community as in any other group on earth. When asked about her private life yes she could have responded none of your business, she chose not to hide and this was what ten years ago when it was even more discriminated against than it is now. I do have to say that the racism isn't quite as large as in other parts of society.

I have an 8yr old nephew who knows about me and auntie grace and loves us to death, but what he's learning at school is to call his friends as an insult,,faggot, queer, dyke,,sorry for this one folks i have even heard him say Nigger..believe you me he is corrected immediatley.

Yes we have a parade as do the blacks for Caribana, the chinese for new years, etc, etc. We're celebrating how far we've come and you'd be amazed how many heterosexuals are there to celebrate along with us..Everyone loves a good party.

Celebrities came out trying to help the rest of us get the rights that you take for granted every day.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 08:12 AM
just a little statistics for you,,we're not asking to be treated better, just equal. you ask me why sexuality comes into it,you tell me.


Students who describe themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered are five times more likely to miss school because of feeling unsafe. 28% are forced to drop out. --National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, "Anti-Gay/Lesbian Victimization," New York,
The vast majority of victims of anti-lesbian/gay violence - possibly more than 80% - never report the incident, often due to fear of being "outed." --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project Annual Report,
85% of teachers oppose integrating lesbian, gay and bisexual themes in their curricula. --"Making Schools Safe for Gay and Lesbian Youth: Report of the Massachusetts Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth,"
Due to sexual orientation discrimination, lesbians earn up to 14% less than their heterosexual female peers with similar jobs, education, age and residence, according to a study by the University of Maryland. --Badgett, M.V. Lee, "The Wage Effects of Sexual Orientation Discrimination," Industrial and Labor Relations Review,
42% of homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Orion Center, Survey of Street Youth, Seattle, WA: Orion Center,
More than 84% of Americans oppose employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. --Survey Conducted by Newsweek,
75% of people committing hate crimes are under age 30 - one in three are under 18 - and some of the most pervasive anti-gay violence occurs in schools. --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Report,
Lesbian, gay and bisexual youth are at a four times higher risk for suicide than their straight peers. --Gibson P., LCSW, "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services,
A survey of 191 employers revealed that 18% would fire, 27% would refuse to hire and 26% would refuse to promote a person they perceived to be lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Schatz and O'Hanlan, "Anti-Gay Discrimination in Medicine: Results of a National Survey of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Physicians,"

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 08:13 AM
Amen Aslan

Didn't see the original thread where this started, but had to chime in. I've got a close family member that's gay and find it really hard to fathom that some prejudiced attitudes continue to persist.

*off to find thread*

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 08:27 AM
ditto aslan , I myself have a couple of gay friends , which makes no difference to me. When I meet people , I look at the person they are inside , I don't ask who their spouses are :p

TacoGrl
February 15th, 2010, 08:39 AM
No, they don't say "Hi my name is --- and I am gay"...however, it does come up early in the conversation and I just don't see why it has to...sometimes it almost seems like they want to get a reaction. :shrug: Generalization? I agree...I base my comments on those I have met and the majority of those fall into my previous comments...although some do go through life not hating/looking for a reaction and are productive individuals who get respect through their actions not their words.

As for your stats...agreed...you can also apply them to fat people and coloured people. I am fat...I get discriminated against every day...I don't get jobs...I don't get dates...I get laughed at in public...I used to get beat up in school...now, I rely on my personality and other talents to draw the focus away and am usually quite a happy person. Other fat people commit suicide...self mutilate...the list goes on. It is all in how you handle yourself.

Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

ancientgirl
February 15th, 2010, 08:42 AM
There is obviously still way too much discrimination of the gay culture. I think it's a shame to judge people simply because of who they choose to love and want to share your life with.

As far as laws go, we are all required to pay taxes, we should all have the same rights. It makes me angry that laws against gay people marrying are really based on a religious belief!

Macomom
February 15th, 2010, 08:43 AM
Hetrosexuality is the invisible assumption. No one ever says "Hi, here I am and I am hetro" because it is assumed they are. This is evident in all popular media, rights given to families, etc.
Further evidenced by the silent taboo of language, being hetro is not a common slander, the way children will call each other "gay or faggot".
So no, hetros don't have to announce who they are because the world assumes they are.

Why would someone like kd lang discuss her sexuality when people just want to hear her sing? No one can know because we are not her, but here are some thoughts...

- Most producers and record execs probably told her to grow her hair, sex it up and hide her "preferences" or she would never sell records- then she did.

-Enormous pressure from her friends and colleagues to use her platform to educate people. This is the exact same pressure that might come if you were raised in poverty and wanted to discuss this, were adopted, were the victem of a crime such as sexual assault, etc. Fame can do amazing things to help people- why wouldn't she say she was a lesbian?

-Perhaps she had a wife or girlfriend who deserved respect in the press, or the ability to sit in the front seat the way Trudie Styler can, or Dr. Phil's wife Robyn

-It influenced her music, maybe she had songs she wanted to sing which were not the typical boy meets girl crap

I can keep going and going and going, but there are a few things I know for sure. The music industry is cut throat for women, more so for gay women. People may not want to hear that you are gay, or ethnic, or religious, or feminist or suffer from illness or see that you are fat, too skinny, tattooed...

I was proud of kd lang for telling us that she was gay.
She is being true to herself, honest to her audience and leading a whole life. If people don't want to hear her politics, then turn her off. I however, will buy her books, read her interviews and visit her websites.
She is a sum of her parts, all of them.

and boy, she is damn cute to boot!

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 08:46 AM
Why is it made into such a big deal?

That's weird that you have met people so open , I find that , well , my friends anyway , took kinda of a while before they would feel comfy enough with me to tell me about it.

One of my male friend even waited 10 years to come out and tell me and was homosexual ! That saddened me , that he felt he couldn't tell people around him.

ancientgirl
February 15th, 2010, 08:51 AM
As for your stats...agreed...you can also apply them to fat people and coloured people. I am fat...I get discriminated against every day...I don't get jobs...I don't get dates...I get laughed at in public...I used to get beat up in school...now, I rely on my personality and other talents to draw the focus away and am usually quite a happy person. Other fat people commit suicide...self mutilate...the list goes on. It is all in how you handle yourself.

Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

I've seen many people who have had good friends, often lose friendships when they have come out. I think making a big deal about it, telling people you are gay from the get go, is possibly just to let the other person know simply because there is so much discrimination.

I'm fat too. But, I can go out and adopt a kid if I wanted to, even though I'm single. A gay couple may not find it as easy. If I don't get a job because I'm fat, or get dates, well, I can lose weight. I can't imagine having to hide who I really am, just because someone might not like my sexual orientation.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 09:03 AM
the ladies have pretty much answered for me and i thank them. TG imagine growing up and being told you must be gay, marry a woman(assuming your female). You'll have no rights, etc, etc..that's what i grew up with,,you must marry a man, have 2.5 kids,(still trying to figure out how you have half a kid). and all the other niceness that comes with being hetro. I came out to my parents at 16yrs of age and was promptly thrown out of the house.

what does intrigue me is you seem to take this topic personally. I also prefer the phrase overweight not fat. my two older sisters are both overweight..now in some situations it is genetic, some is an eating disorder, some is just plain old eating far too much crap. the first two you can't do anything about and i feel for those people. If you fall under one of those catagories then you should understand how we feel being made fun of, insulted because of something you can't change..but i don't know of anyone beaten to death for being overweight.

marko
February 15th, 2010, 09:10 AM
I like the tone of this thread. Hot but civil :highfive:

14+kitties
February 15th, 2010, 09:12 AM
I am not gay. (DUH!:rolleyes:) I am a slightly overweight, very short 50+ year old woman who was sexually abused at 10 years old by an uncle for six months. Does it change the way I treat people? You're damned right!! My life was changed in a heartbeat because my uncle "chose" to molest me. I don't hide the fact that he abused me. He was the sick one, not me. However, it defined me for a long time. I didn't realize it. When I did (somewhere in my late 30's) I worked very hard to change the way I lived my life. I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person. That includes me opening my eyes to a lot of other people's plights.
You don't "choose" to be gay. You don't "choose" to be anything other than a loving, caring person. We can "choose" to let others live their lives peacefully from this day forward. We all deserve that.

marko
February 15th, 2010, 09:14 AM
I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

Macomom
February 15th, 2010, 09:16 AM
I am not gay. (DUH!:rolleyes:) I am a slightly overweight, very short 50+ year old woman who was sexually abused at 10 years old by an uncle for six months. Does it change the way I treat people? You're damned right!! My life was changed in a heartbeat because my uncle "chose" to molest me. I don't hide the fact that he abused me. He was the sick one, not me. However, it defined me for a long time. I didn't realize it. When I did (somewhere in my late 30's) I worked very hard to change the way I lived my life. I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person. That includes me opening my eyes to a lot of other people's plights.
You don't "chose" to be gay. You don't "chose" to be anything other than a loving, caring person. We can "chose" to let others live their lives peacefully from this day forward. We all deserve that.

I just wanted to say this is a great post.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 09:17 AM
I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

i said that earlier Marko, i see it with my nephew all the time. Atleast now the law is doing something about it. a family just had their children taken away from them for promoting racism.

14+:grouphug:

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person.


and you are :2huggers:

ditto on : people don't choose to be gay , like we don't choose to have brown or blue eyes :shrug: it's how we're born !

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 09:25 AM
You say "Gay is what we are not who we are"...fine then, why does it always seem to be the main focus in what gay people do/say? It seems that people know people are gay because they tell us in the first 30 secs of meeting us...we don't care.

Here's the thing TacoGrl...those of us who are not heterosexual live in a world where we are ASSUMED to be hetero. With VERY few exceptions, every single song on the radio, ad in a magazine or on a billboard, and tv show screams HI WE'RE STRAIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT ONE OF US.

Every straight couple on the street can walk holding hands, or give eachother a peck on the cheek before parting...or hell, even make out if they feel like it (ew, PDA:yuck:) People I work with talk about their spouses/boy/girlfriends all the time...because they're important people in their lives. Just as my partner is important in mine.

People see my wedding band and ask me about my "husband". Or they don't see the band and ask me if I have a "boyfriend". My partner is suddenly invisible, and I am made invisible, and awkwardness ensues, and I am put in a position where I now have to out myself and explain the situation.

So, TacoGrl, if you think people are being "too open" about things, simply by mentioning they're gay or mentioning their partner...well, it's very likely that, like me, we a) don't want that yucky feeling of being invisible or b) want to take control of any potentially awkward situations of accidental "outing" by just getting it in the open right away.

The comments I made were not to hurt...they were the facts in what started a downward spiral for someone who was good at what they did...the PETA thing added to how that someone was already perceived from previous actions and away from mainstream she went. It was how she expressed it...the things she said about those who didn't really care either way...didn't really see why she was making such a big deal out of something that wasn't a big deal...something no one really cared about...most people said "what a beautiful voice" not "what a lesbian" and they bought her tapes/went to her concerts without a thought of her sexuality...until she started making people feel bad for not focussing on her "plight" as she perceived it...I was too busy enjoying her music to care...until it got to be too much drama.

The fact that YOu or other people were uncomfortable with it doesn't make her actions wrong. It's like saying, "Gee, when black students demanded to be allowed into a white-only school, it made people angry and uncomfortable, so they really shouldn't have done it." Do you not see the parallel?

Why exactly does sexuality even have to come into the picture anyway? Everyone has a talent and I don't really care what you do in bed...I don't go around "Hey I am hetro, love me or I'll sue you"...I don't have parades "celebrating" my sexuality...I and a lot of others just don't see the reason for all the hub-bub...you are who you are...enjoy life!

You may not have parades, but you have the right to publicly display your love for your opposite-sex partner without fear of being beaten up or killed. You may not have parades, but you have every media outlet reinforcing your relationship as being "normal". You may not have parades, but you can have your relationship recognized by the law, and religious institutions.

One day of celebration of the hard-won gay rights, one day of celebration of NOT having to live in fear or in the closet because many people before us took the beatings and were thrown in jail and outcast...but they survived and fought back and made it easier for the rest of us...one day of being comfy walking down the street holding your loved one's hand....well, quite frankly my dear, get over it. It's not hurting anyone.


Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

Frankly, it's a big deal because there are millions of people like you who tell us every day that it doesn't matter, and that we should just shut up about it.

Those of us who hated ourselves because of the way we were born are not willing to be silent just because it might make a few people uncomfortable.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 09:29 AM
I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

I completely agree Marko...I was teased for years in grade school and high school, long before I was even aware of my orientation and certainly long before I was out of the closet.

Children can indeed be cruel, and it can have a lasting effect on people, no matter WHAT the reason for the bullying. What's sad is that adults seem to carry this cruel behaviour on and persist in putting down others because of their differences. I have a hard time understanding how ANYone who was picked on as a child could possible put down another human being for being the way they are...knowing full well the hurt that it causes. :shrug:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 09:31 AM
bendy all i can say to that is.

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 09:35 AM
Can I add that , about the gay parade , why not ? we have also now "women's day" (la journée de la femme) so everybody is getting their day :shrug:

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 09:41 AM
Hetrosexuality is the invisible assumption. No one ever says "Hi, here I am and I am hetro" because it is assumed they are. This is evident in all popular media, rights given to families, etc.
Further evidenced by the silent taboo of language, being hetro is not a common slander, the way children will call each other "gay or faggot".
So no, hetros don't have to announce who they are because the world assumes they are.

Bingo.

I can keep going and going and going, but there are a few things I know for sure. The music industry is cut throat for women, more so for gay women. People may not want to hear that you are gay, or ethnic, or religious, or feminist or suffer from illness or see that you are fat, too skinny, tattooed...

Excellent point. It's not just heterosexuality that's being "pushed" in mainstream music, it's an entirely unreasonable portrayal of women in general. kd refused to conform to many of these; it was ground-breaking for MANY types of women, not "just" gay ones.


I was proud of kd lang for telling us that she was gay.
She is being true to herself, honest to her audience and leading a whole life. If people don't want to hear her politics, then turn her off. I however, will buy her books, read her interviews and visit her websites.
She is a sum of her parts, all of them.

and boy, she is damn cute to boot!

:thumbs up

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 09:43 AM
i'm not sure why there would be an issue with the pride parade..I can't speak for any other city but in toronto pride week brings in more money to the city in one week than some business's make in months( gays like eating in restaurants, and nice hotels). the santa claus parade is funded by the city and business's, carabana has been running in the red for aslong as i can remember and is gov't funded..pride is totally self sufficient, it has been running in the black for many years and it DOESN'T get gov't funding.

durring two garbage strikes the gay community was the only clean part of the city as the pride committee hired private contractors to remove the garbage..If you ever see the parade. over 1 million people attend, the street is covered in confetti and stuff, within hours of the parade ending yonge st is spotless, once again paid for by the pride committee..and i must add unlike carabana there has never been one shooting incident.

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 09:47 AM
Interesting thread, but very sad at the same time.

I am not white (surprise, surprise!!). I am of mixed origin but asked constantly 'where do you come from'. My answer: 'the womb'.

I am straight, not because I choose to be straight - I was born that way and I cannot alter my attraction - it's impossible. But - I never been in position to explain my sexual orientation until I hang out with my friend who 'may be'! Yes she 'fits' that sterotypical description of being 'masculine', tall, deeper voice, attractive but not cutsey. I have known her for years and we don't have those girlie talks. She never mentions anything about her personal life...then again why should she?

But - I am now 'guilty' by 'association'. Funny. So I am a colored chick that people think is gay..... To be honest, I don't even bother saying otherwise. I enjoy her company, her passion for life, and not to mention her generous and gentle heart for all living things. I am proud to walk, talk and be in her company. I refuse to explain anything to anyone.

She is my very best friend. I love her so much for who she is...period. I do not feel compelled to ask her about her sexual orientation because in the big picture - who care? What would it change?

She has never asked me about my ethnic background, nor my sexual orientation. It just was never a topic of discussion.:shrug:

I aswell went through and sometimes still go through prejudice. Being told 'oh I am not talking about you because you are the 'good kind'. Good kind of what? Indian? Mix breed?

All I have to say (which came from another bisexual friend of mine was...)..'if you find love, regardless of which sex it comes from, then you are that much richer than those that are closed to it. If you are loved once in your life...then who cares where it comes from, or what form.' Another wise and gorgeous person I will always cherish in my life.

In this day and age it saddens me to know end that there is a reason to justify who we are.

Aslan - I met you and I absolutely ADORE who you are. You my dear friend are a wonderful human being that I am so darn honored to have met.:grouphug:

marko
February 15th, 2010, 09:48 AM
I have a hard time understanding how ANYone who was picked on as a child could possible put down another human being for being the way they are...knowing full well the hurt that it causes

we humans...very very flawed.
It's really that simple imo. We have an innate tendency to want to be better than the next person. We compete; it's in our genes. 'Competing' against someone different by making them feel bad with words is a sad type of competition though.

Despite all the advancements for gay people.... I'd expect another couple of generations (60 years) to pass before being gay is a non-issue in the western world. :2cents:

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 09:49 AM
Can I add that , about the gay parade , why not ? we have also now "women's day" (la journée de la femme) so everybody is getting their day :shrug:

A quick search of parades in Toronto:

Carabana parade (Caribbean countries)
St. Patrick's day parade (Irish)
Warrior's Day parade (veterans)
Easter Parade (Christians)
Mardi Gras Parade (New Orleans/Cajun)
Chinese New Year Parade (Chinese)

Even freaking SANTA gets a parade

How come none of THOSE are offensive? I mean, what's the big deal? Why is it so important to them to celebrate who they are? They really should just get over it and stop making such a big deal of it.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Aslan - I met you and I absolutely ADORE who you are. You my dear friend are a wonderful human being that I am so darn honored to have met.:grouphug:

omg you actually brought tears to my eyes.:eek: does this mean you wont hit me anymore. i have to say i bow down to all of the work you do for our furry friends and love you to death..

oh side note kd is an animal advocate too.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 10:35 AM
I just want to add one other "food for thought":

one reason that I am completely out (with family, friends, at work), is because I want to set a positive example, especially for young people.

I remember when I was first coming to grips with my sexuality. I spent a lot of time searching for other people "like me" so I wouldn't feel so isolated.

Sometimes I would discover that a celebrity whose work I already enjoyed (kd would be one, Micheal Stipe from REM is another that I remember) was openly gay/queer. It would make me smile, and think "YES!!! There ARE people like me! And they're successful and happy!"

You see, because the rest of society tends to either put down queers or make them invisible, young people have few positive role models to look up to. All they hear is the bad stuff, and it's frightening. These celebrities who are out make it easier and safer for others; it's a selfless act.

So me, I'm out. By NOT being invisible, and by showing the world that I am happy, loved, supported by friends and family, likeable, successful, and intelligent...and that I've made good choices in my life to get me where I am today...(oh, and btw also gay)...I like to think that it might change some minds about what it means "to be gay" or what gay people "are like" (which is such a weird concept to me...no two gay people are the same)...and also that it might allow young, scared, closeted people to feel like they don't need to be frightened, they don't have to be a certain "way" or fit a certain stereotype; simply that they can continue being who they are and make their own choices in life.

:2cents:

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 10:46 AM
The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. .

Ok, so one other tiny thing, then I'll shut up:

aslan raised this, and it's an important point. MANY people seem to use the terms "sexual preference" or "lifestyle". As aslan pointed out, being queer is not a choice, OR a lifestyle, it's how a person was born.

The only choice is whether or not one is honest with themselves and the people in their lives; whether they choose to live a lie or come out and live openly and truthfully.

SO, all that to say, a MUCH better way to say it is: "sexual orientation".

That is all. Edumacating over. :p

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 10:52 AM
btw ... if I ever use wrong terms , about anything , just tell me. It wouldn't be ignorance on my part , but I'm not 100% bilingual and can use terms sometimes without knowing these are not the right words. :)

I am french , hear me roar ... :laughing:

just kidding :cool:

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 10:54 AM
OMG Frenchy, you offend me allllll the time, it's amazing I even speak to you at all...:frustrated:

:laughing::laughing::laughing: J/k! :p

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 10:55 AM
OMG Frenchy, you offend me allllll the time, it's amazing I even speak to you at all...:frustrated:

:laughing::laughing::laughing: J/k! :p

:D I try my best :evil:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 10:56 AM
OMG Frenchy, you offend me allllll the time, it's amazing I even speak to you at all...:frustrated:

:laughing::laughing::laughing: J/k! :p

:laugh::laugh::laugh:it's that sexy french accent she has,,rurrrrrral.:D

Jim Hall
February 15th, 2010, 10:56 AM
I dont give a oot who u want to love i dont give a hoot how out you are i dont give a hoot what color or race or size ( as long as yu dont smell)

Are you kind? are u compassionate thats what i want to know


hell i get dicriminated sometimes cause im from big bad paterson

as b marley said get up stsnd up
stand up for your rights
get up stand up dont give up the fight

chico2
February 15th, 2010, 11:01 AM
The day my youngest son,in tears,told me he was not like his brothers,he would never marry,never give me grand-children,I'll never forget..
I hugged him and cried with him,not because I was surprised,but because I knew the hard-ship he would suffer,as a Trans-Gender person.
However,a huge weight was lifted off his shoulders from that day on,a new self-confidence emerged and I am very proud of her/him,as is her father.
After having been bullied and often hurt through the school-years,she now lives the life she was born to live,up until now a lonely life,but I am sure there is someone out there for her too..
I have lived longer than most of you,have met people in many different countries,the only thing that matters is love,compassion and respect for others and yourself.

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 11:04 AM
I did not know that Chico2 ! :o thank dog he/she ended up with such wonderful parents :grouphug:

erykah1310
February 15th, 2010, 11:05 AM
I'm straight, and when I meet new people I always bring up the fact that I am... not clear out going "Hi I'm Erika and I am straight" but I am proud of my man, I love him to death and just love to talk about him so early on in conversations he comes up if he is not around. I dont have to call him my "partner" and I truely dont like how the gay/lesbian community refers to the loves of their lives in the manner that they are portrayed as nothing more than a buisness partner.
As much as it is accepted to be either heterosexual or homosexual the gay/lesbian community does indeed suffer far more prejudice than the straight community does. I hate how there is such a double standard for love.
You love who you love, and prefer what you prefer and no one should make any other human being feel like they are singled out because of it.
I do not personally care how one lives their life by means of love as long as there is love who cares which sex it is? Everyone deserves the right to be happy and COMFORTABLE with who they are.
I would hate to have to defend my sexuality day in and day out, hear the jokes, hear the snickering ect.
I have so many gay and lesbian friends and absolutely adore how true to themselves they are. I commend them on being able to stand up and be proud of who they are even when faced with ridicule. Us "straight" can truely learn alot from their 'community'
I am quite passionate about the subject as my man is truely a "homophobe" he does not bash or ridicule but ALWAYS seems to have a comment which, to be honest, causes many arguements in our household. I love him to death but it hurts me when he sais these things as my point of the subject is "love is love no matter where it comes from or goes"
Aslan, up until just now i had no idea you were gay, I'm sorry that you were made to feel that you had to defend yourself, I would hate to have to defend my sexuality.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 11:05 AM
The day my youngest son,in tears,told me he was not like his brothers,he would never marry,never give me grand-children,I'll never forget..
I hugged him and cried with him,not because I was surprised,but because I knew the hard-ship he would suffer,as a Trans-Gender person.
However,a huge weight was lifted off his shoulders from that day on,a new self-confidence emerged and I am very proud of her/him,as is her father.
After having been bullied and often hurt through the school-years,she now lives the life she was born to live,up until now a lonely life,but I am sure there is someone out there for her too..
I have lived longer than most of you,have met people in many different countries,the only thing that matters is love,compassion and respect for others and yourself.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:
You're an awesome mama, chico

marko
February 15th, 2010, 11:10 AM
aslan raised this, and it's an important point. MANY people seem to use the terms "sexual preference" or "lifestyle". As aslan pointed out, being queer is not a choice, OR a lifestyle, it's how a person was born.

I may get myself into trouble....but I don't believe this to be true for all gay people.... I do believe it is true for the majority of gay people. I give nature the HUGE edge here but nurture plays a part for some gay people in my experience. Like most things on planet earth there are shades of grey (Bisexuality has to fit in here somewhere imo) and the sweeping statement above contradicts what I've learned over the years.

But I love to refine what I've learned so please correct me if you feel I'm off-base.

thx - Marko

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I may get myself into trouble....but I don't believe this to be true for all gay people.... I do believe it is true for the majority of gay people. I give nature the HUGE edge here but nurture plays a part for some gay people in my experience. Like most things on planet earth there are shades of grey (Bisexuality has to fit in here somewhere imo) and the sweeping statement above contradicts what I've learned over the years.

But I love to refine what I've learned so please correct me if you feel I'm off-base.

thx - Marko

I guess I personally have never met someone who outright "chose" to be queer, which is why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the "nurture" component. Even if you want to talk about bisexuality, why would a bisexual persons' orientation be any less innate than that of someone who identifies as 100% straight or 100% gay? Does a straight person's orientation come about as a result of both nature and nurture, or were they born that way?

I completely agree that there are many shades of grey in terms of who people love, and also think that it's very fluid for some people. But that fluidity doesn't necessarily correlate to choice; just expression of what's already built-in.

Thoughts?

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:18 AM
I did not know that Chico2 ! :o thank dog he/she ended up with such wonderful parents :grouphug:

I knew and to anyone who hasn't met our lovely grand dame Chico2, she is one of the most beautiful people you could ever hope to meet. And i'm sure her son/daughter is as proud of her as she is of him/her.

Erykah, thank you and some of us the " partner" title is bothersome too, but unfortunately until recently we couldn't call them our wife/hubby. i hate spouse. I personally call Grace either by name or my wife. As for the thread i have to say it was started out of hurt but i am sooooo proud of you people you'll never know. We have people sharing past hurts, love of family, friends, etc. And hopefully a little education from Bendy and I.:grouphug:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:23 AM
I may get myself into trouble....but I don't believe this to be true for all gay people.... I do believe it is true for the majority of gay people. I give nature the HUGE edge here but nurture plays a part for some gay people in my experience. Like most things on planet earth there are shades of grey (Bisexuality has to fit in here somewhere imo) and the sweeping statement above contradicts what I've learned over the years.

But I love to refine what I've learned so please correct me if you feel I'm off-base.

thx - Marko

I believe in some ways you're right Marko, there are people who live a gay lifestyle as they were molested as a child and feel safe with the sex opposite of their molester. There are those that stay true to their orientation. As for Bi-sexual, transgender, transvestites etc, i still believe it's genetic too. some little gene didn't do what everyone elses did. I feel sorriest for the bi-sexuals to be honest because they don't totally fit in with either group.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 11:26 AM
I use "partner" a lot...what I find funny is that more and more people are using it REGARDLESS of the gender of their partner. It used to throw me off at first, I'd be like "huh? I thought you (girl) were with a guy!"

I think people like that it doesn't define their relationship status (i.e., are they married or not), just that they are in a relationship. :2cents:

marko
February 15th, 2010, 11:30 AM
I guess I personally have never met someone who outright "chose" to be queer, which is why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the "nurture" component. Even if you want to talk about bisexuality, why would a bisexual persons' orientation be any less innate than that of someone who identifies as 100% straight or 100% gay? Does a straight person's orientation come about as a result of both nature and nurture, or were they born that way?

I completely agree that there are many shades of grey in terms of who people love, and also think that it's very fluid for some people. But that fluidity doesn't necessarily correlate to choice; just expression of what's already built-in.

Thoughts?

Our world after we are born can shape us in very concrete but also in very subtle ways... I can see how some people could be attracted to members of the same sex even if they are not gay if they were in the right environment.

It would likely happen WAY more often if there were no stigma.

If this attraction builds up over time it can turn into love. I'll be honest here, personally I don't know anyone like this, my gay friends were born gay.

But take a look throughout history...Ancient Greece comes quickly to mind. Seems in certain environments where the expression of homosexuality is accepted, nurture plays a part.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:39 AM
i don't think it was so much nurture Marko as it was " the norm". In accent Greece it was a little more tolerated for some reason, even Alexander the great had a male lover,,but he was also married to a woman as that is what was the norm, or expected. If nurture was such a large part,,i have two children with Grace, 18 and 19 and straight as an arrow. Two of my ex's have children(teehee not mine phew) they also are straight but all of these kids were raised in gay homes.

they're already doing genetic testing to try and prove if a fetus will be born gay so the parents will have the right to abort. Isn't that gonna cause a huge hubbubb, anti-abortion over homophobia.

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 11:54 AM
I believe in some ways you're right Marko, there are people who live a gay lifestyle as they were molested as a child and feel safe with the sex opposite of their molester. There are those that stay true to their orientation. As for Bi-sexual, transgender, transvestites etc, i still believe it's genetic too. some little gene didn't do what everyone elses did. I feel sorriest for the bi-sexuals to be honest because they don't totally fit in with either group.

Well according to 'Stephie' biosexuality is not a choice thing. She explains that she cannot choose one sex over the other as she feels that both are one of the same. Other than different 'parts', she says it's more of an emotional connection than the sexual one.

Funny - I asked her if it was confusing as to not being able to commit to one or the other 'group'. In her eyes, she has the best of all worlds. She loves whoever she pleases and does not compare one sex to the other. For her - everyone is one the same page (sort of speak).

marko
February 15th, 2010, 11:54 AM
AFAIK, this is false aslan. It was not the norm in ancient Greece. It was common, but NOT the norm. Why was it common? Because it was acceptable, because there was little stigma...not because the majority of these men were born gay (I can't know that to be true, but to me it makes logical sense).

If poof all of a sudden the mindset changed here in Canada - I'd expect we'd see a similar scene to ancient Greece minus the pedophilia.

I guess my only point was...although the prevailing thought (in gay positive people) these days seems to be that gay people are born gay, that that is not completely accurate and not always the case....and in the right environment things could change real fast. I'll go even farther, imo there would be an explosion of same sex relationships (in people without the 'gay gene') if there were no stigma...

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:55 AM
ummmm i didn't say it was a choice,,i said it was genetic.

Macomom
February 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM
From my understand of Greece, it was a class choice as well. Homosexuality was acceptable among the Spartans and some of the scholars.
I believe this was corelated to the extrememly lowly status of women in those groups, more than sexual exploration.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM
nono marko i didn't state what i meant clearly,, i don't think that hetro was so much nurture as it was that it was the norm,,, then i went on about the greeks..sorry

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 11:59 AM
lol, if you look at the who's online list 9 out of 10 people are reading our thread...hmmm now i feel nekkid.:eek:

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 11:59 AM
I guess my only point was...although the prevailing thought (in gay positive people) these days seems to be that gay people are born gay, that that is not completely accurate and not always the case....and in the right environment things could change real fast. I'll go even farther, imo there would be an explosion of same sex relationships (in people without the 'gay gene') if there were no stigma...

I have to absolutely disagree with you Marko. If you have ever 'tried' to go to the other side, you will see that even though you WANT this same sex exchange, with all the same activities as a straight couple, you will see that this engagement will be very very short lived. You will go back to what was genetically meant for you and not because it is 'ok' by society to try something different. It does not work that way at all.

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 12:02 PM
lol, if you look at the who's online list 9 out of 10 people are reading our thread...hmmm now i feel nekkid.:eek:

It's still a case of curiosity I think. But it is a facinating thread as this topic is still taboo in so many societies.

This is a GREAT thread. I am so glad it got brought up as I am sure that we all have been faced with somesort of curiousity, racism, sexism and discrimination.

TacoGrl
February 15th, 2010, 12:02 PM
I am not taking things "personally"...I am trying to express my points...my ideas...much like the rest of you and unfortunately, some of those points are not being received in the manner in which they were intended and I am not sure if it is because of the way I am typing them or the way they are being read.

I am not out to bash gays...none of what I have said leads in that direction...I honestly do not understand why it is being perceived that way :( I simply do not understand why such a big deal is made out of your sexuality...gay or straight...it doesn't matter...you don't have to hide it...live life! So much time is spent trying to make people accept your sexuality when in fact the people probably don't have any issue with it or even give it a second thought in the first place! :shrug: For those who are abusive to gays or whomever (people are mean), that is called abuse...there are laws against abuse.

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 12:06 PM
I am not out to bash gays...none of what I have said leads in that direction...I honestly do not understand why it is being perceived that way :( I simply do not understand why such a big deal is made out of your sexuality...gay or straight...it doesn't matter...you don't have to hide it...live life! So much time is spent trying to make people accept your sexuality when in fact the people probably don't have any issue with it or even give it a second thought in the first place! :shrug: For those who are abusive to gays or whomever, that is called abuse...there are laws against abuse.

When a people is surpressed TacoGrl, then after time - it's time to stand up and be heard. Nothing is force fed to anyone, but when a socieity is not allowed or shamefully must put their heads between their legs - there comes a time when enough is enough. It's all about acceptance, peace and co-habitation in harmony.

marko
February 15th, 2010, 12:07 PM
I have to absolutely disagree with you Marko. If you have ever 'tried' to go to the other side, you will see that even though you WANT this same sex exchange, with all the same activities as a straight couple, you will see that this engagement will be very very short lived. You will go back to what was genetically meant for you and not because it is 'ok' by society to try something different. It does not work that way at all.

Then we agree to disagree :)
I have never tried, played or desired to play on the other side. I'm not attracted to men.

However.....the crushing weight of conformity plays a huge part on how I (and everyone else on the planet) see the world, and how I interact with the world.

Remove that conformity....and the world changes drastically.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:10 PM
it is made an issue unfortunately TacoGirl because a large portion of society, dislikes, puts down, bashes, kills or some other ungodly thing anything that doesn't fit their idea of what " the norm" is. It becomes an issue when as bendy said one of us tries to walk down the street holding hands with our love. It becomes an issue when a little child in a school yard calls another little kid queer.

First mankind thought it was ok to bring blacks over from africa, chain them beat them, etc. to present day where the gays are the targets. If something isn't the way the majority thinks it should be then it becomes an issue.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:14 PM
put their heads between their legs - .


if i could do that,,,,,rotfl..

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 12:18 PM
if i could do that,,,,,rotfl..

Then no one would be on the internet....:laughing:

free
February 15th, 2010, 12:19 PM
tacogirl it is easy to say you don't have to hide it but that is a very naive attitude. my daughter who is now only 25 has friends who were afraid to tell their parents because they didnt want to lose family and be kicked out of the house. there is still plenty of prejudice out there

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:19 PM
i think you mean wouldn't don't you.:evil:

marko
February 15th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Tacogirl, I see where you are coming from. I know you are not out to bash anyone.

For people that are already gay positive, there are other very important issues that affect our lives and our country.
For some gay people, it does seem to be the main topic of their conversations (NOT talking about anyone in this thread). That's cool, being gay is a huge part of who they are. That said...like anyone that only talks about 1 thing, it gets old even if it IS an important topic. Did I put my foot in my mouth?

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 12:21 PM
tacogirl it is easy to say you don't have to hide it but that is a very naive attitude. my daughter who is now only 25 has friends who were afraid to tell their parents because they didnt want to lose family and be kicked out of the house. there is still plenty of prejudice out there

Absolutely 100% true statement. We as a society have not evolved. I also have a daughter that is dating a somewhat more feminine young man. He is absolutely delightful, but just by his demenour he is labelled. She has a 'need' to defend him...now how sad is that?

Love4himies
February 15th, 2010, 12:23 PM
The day my youngest son,in tears,told me he was not like his brothers,he would never marry,never give me grand-children,I'll never forget..
I hugged him and cried with him,not because I was surprised,but because I knew the hard-ship he would suffer,as a Trans-Gender person.
However,a huge weight was lifted off his shoulders from that day on,a new self-confidence emerged and I am very proud of her/him,as is her father.
After having been bullied and often hurt through the school-years,she now lives the life she was born to live,up until now a lonely life,but I am sure there is someone out there for her too..
I have lived longer than most of you,have met people in many different countries,the only thing that matters is love,compassion and respect for others and yourself.

Awwww, chico, you are the best mom ever :cry: :lovestruck: :angel:. Wouldn't the world be wonderful if everybody allowed his/her neighbour to live in peace, without needless violence and ridicule.

Aslan and Bendyfoot: I can't imagine the pain you have to live through just because of your sexual orientation, I am sorry :grouphug: Every time I hear of Matthew Sheppard, I cry, it is just so upsetting that humans have done this to another human :(.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Tacogirl, I see where you are coming from. I know you are not out to bash anyone.

nope i don't see bashing either.:thumbs up just hopefully educating some people whether posting in the thread or just lurking. I guess its harder to understand something if you don't have to live it everyday.

wdawson
February 15th, 2010, 12:28 PM
its 2010,why is this even an issue?is this not a pet site,a place where we ALL have a common interest?......aslan your gay?i never knew:laughing:

free
February 15th, 2010, 12:29 PM
not to thread jack but we are jewish and her bf family is from india originally so we know what prejudice is. the younger goes to school in windsor and always hears you dont look jewish. i always reminded them everyone is equal when they were growing up. heads would have rolled if i heard hurtful remarks about others from their mouths, but that is not the case in many homes.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:30 PM
its 2010,why is this even an issue?is this not a pet site,a place where we ALL have a common interest?......aslan your gay?i never knew:laughing:

yes it is a pet site and as a member i created this thread BECAUSE it is an issue..only straight for you WD.

Love4 this is a song performed by melissa ethridge about mathew sheppard.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmDlQO61pk

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 12:49 PM
not to thread jack but we are jewish and her bf family is from india originally so we know what prejudice is. the younger goes to school in windsor and always hears you dont look jewish. i always reminded them everyone is equal when they were growing up. heads would have rolled if i heard hurtful remarks about others from their mouths, but that is not the case in many homes.

not a threadjack at all free prejudice is prejudice plain and simple.

mummummum
February 15th, 2010, 12:57 PM
Wowzer...terrific thread all!

As for "sexual preference"...yes, I do...prefer it that is:D

As for "sexual orientation"... the only time I'm interested in what you do with what is between your legs is if I am interested in what is between your legs.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 01:05 PM
Aslan and Bendyfoot: I can't imagine the pain you have to live through just because of your sexual orientation, I am sorry :grouphug:

You know the funny thing, L4? Any hurt I've ever experienced has NOT been because of my sexual orientation...it's been because of peoples' response to it. I'm perfectly happy being gay. For ME, it's a non-issue. It's just one small part of who/what I am. The issue lies with other people, plain and simple. If the rest of the world was more accepting, there would be no "closet", no young people killing themselves, no awkward coming out to parents...none of it. We would all just be. (Wouldn't that be nice?) :D

BenMax
February 15th, 2010, 01:06 PM
As for "sexual orientation"... the only time I'm interested in what you do with what is between your legs is if I am interested in what is between your legs.

:laughing: Well said, well put!

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 01:55 PM
Wow, great thread, I've read thru it twice.

I have many gay/lesbian friends, infact one of my best friends is a lesbian.
I also have many hetero friends, some who are totally accepting of gays/lesbians, and some who unfortunately are not.

I don't normally categorize my friends based on sexuality, my friends are my friends and I love them all.

My own mother was bisexual. I didn't find out until I was 12 or 13 that she was, and I remember how fearful she was in anticipation of my reaction.
I disliked my mother for many reasons, however, I didn't dislike her because of her sexuality. I wasn't surprised to learn she was bisexual, after two seriously abusive marriages, where she was almost killed, she took refuge in the arms of a woman, and she was never happier nor did she ever feel so safe.
Martha and my mother had a relationship that spanned a course of 5+ years, and I'm sure had my mother not started drinking again, their relationship would've lasted even longer. I loved Martha, she made my mother happy and that was all that mattered.

Someone brought up Pride Parades, some of my gay/lesbian friends, don't approve of them either, some do. The one's that don't, feel the parades do nothing but to marginalize their community even more. They also feel they are hypocritical, because if there were to be a Hetero Pride Parade, they are convinced that there would be an uproar in the gay community, accussing it of being bigoted and such. Maybe their right, maybe their not.
My gay/lesbian friends that do like the parades, and have contributed and participated in them. For them it's the one time a year they can truly be themselves, let their hair down so to speak and have fun.
My personal opinion of the parades, I don't think they are neccesary, but I certainly wouldn't deny the right to host such an event. I've been to a couple to support my friends who were participating, for the most part it was enjoyable, unfortunately, there were also parts that weren't appropriate for children, and since I had my children with me I was a tad annoyed. Now before getting angry with me for that comment, just let me say, that if I seen two Hetero ppl doing the same thing in a public venue, I would be equally annoyed.
I have no issue with showing affection in public, holding hands, a brief kiss, a loving embrace, but for people in general, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed.
I have faced descrimination over the past 20 years, for being married to an unorthodox Jew. A relative of ours recently had a racial bigotry spray painted on her garage door and fence. It's a human condition, and if I were a betting person, I'd wage that altho things have and will change, there will always be descrimination, hate, bigotry and fear.
It's unfortunate that we can't embrace our differences, it's unfortunate that some people refuse to accept others simply because it conflicts with their religious upbringing. It's most unfortunate, that some people have to inflict their children with their own insecurities and bigotry, therefore keeping descrimination and hate alive.

That's just my 2cents......

btw....when I found out I pregnant when I was 17, my mother threw me out in the street, no support, no nothing, gotta say that was probably the worst day of my life.

Love4himies
February 15th, 2010, 02:00 PM
yes it is a pet site and as a member i created this thread BECAUSE it is an issue..only straight for you WD.

Love4 this is a song performed by melissa ethridge about mathew sheppard.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmDlQO61pk

Thank you aslan, of course the tears flowed again :rolleyes:. I just can't imagine living with such hate and anger as these murderers do.

Wowzer...terrific thread all!

As for "sexual preference"...yes, I do...prefer it that is:D

As for "sexual orientation"... the only time I'm interested in what you do with what is between your legs is if I am interested in what is between your legs.
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


You know the funny thing, L4? Any hurt I've ever experienced has NOT been because of my sexual orientation...it's been because of peoples' response to it. I'm perfectly happy being gay. For ME, it's a non-issue. It's just one small part of who/what I am. The issue lies with other people, plain and simple. If the rest of the world was more accepting, there would be no "closet", no young people killing themselves, no awkward coming out to parents...none of it. We would all just be. (Wouldn't that be nice?) :D

I am glad you live your life to please yourself, not others :thumbs up. You only have one life to live!

My daughter works with a young gay man, he was kicked out of the house by his parents when he told them he was gay :(. I can't imagine parents having such conditional love for their children :wall:. He is the sweetest young man.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:01 PM
well said LMPG,,,, yup there are things that happen durring the parade that are just uncalled for, such as public nudity. I also don't think it's neccessary to grope each other in public, jeez get a room..

Unfortunately you're right there probably will always be hate and discrimination in the world.

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 02:02 PM
My daughter works with a young gay man, he was kicked out of the house by his parents when he told them he was gay :(. I can't imagine parents having such conditional love for their children :wall:. He is the sweetest young man.

omg :( wow ! :wall:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:02 PM
My daughter works with a young gay man, he was kicked out of the house by his parents when he told them he was gay :(. I can't imagine parents having such conditional love for their children :wall:. He is the sweetest young man.

sadly i don't have to imagine it, i lived it..you've met me, do you get the impression i care what people think of me. Either you like me or you don't not going to be something i'm not for anyone.

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 02:05 PM
A relative of ours recently had a racial bigotry spray painted on her garage door and fence.

wow again .... I can't believe people !

I've tried to watch the movie "Mississipi burning" the other day and I was sick to my stomach. I was well aware about this but still , things like this makes my blood boil. :frustrated:

marko
February 15th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry for the sadness in your thread LMPG:sorry:

As far as overly sexual displays in public parades are concerned, I agree, NOT appropriate at all. I can easily see how it happens in a festive parade....but inappropriate. :2cents:

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 02:13 PM
sadly i don't have to imagine it, i lived it..you've met me, do you get the impression i care what people think of me. Either you like me or you don't not going to be something i'm not for anyone.

aslan....I haven't met you, and I get the impression you don't care what people think, and that you are not going to be something you aren't for anyone. Nothin' wrong with that, I'm the same way.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:14 PM
aslan....I haven't met you, and I get the impression you don't care what people think, and that you are not going to be something you aren't for anyone. Nothin' wrong with that, I'm the same way.

lol, not from lack of trying on my part FG was just working me sooo hard..this is why we get along mf.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 02:19 PM
lol, not from lack of trying on my part FG was just working me sooo hard..this is why we get along mf.

Yessssss it was all FG's fault, therefore from this day forward I will refer to her as "Theonewhohoggedaslanthewholetimeshewasouthere".....
If you are ever out this way again, I would love to take you out for dinner or something, ya can come over and meet the pitties and the rotti, meet the hubby and the brats.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:22 PM
well last i heard i'm supposed to be there in sept to gut FG's bathroom so i would be there longer, and i would loooove to meet your puppers and family,,i was trying to meet up with SCM while i was there, nope didn't happen. i did get to see FG's bare bum tho.:D

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 02:25 PM
well last i heard i'm supposed to be there in sept to gut FG's bathroom so i would be there longer, and i would loooove to meet your puppers and family,,i was trying to meet up with SCM while i was there, nope didn't happen. i did get to see FG's bare bum tho.:D

:laughing::laughing:....

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:28 PM
actually i have a picture of it too.:evil:

My Lodi Girl
February 15th, 2010, 02:33 PM
..'if you find love, regardless of which sex it comes from, then you are that much richer than those that are closed to it. If you are loved once in your life...then who cares where it comes from, or what form.'

OK, I'm going to jump in here. First of all, I completely agree with the quote above. I have always said that if you are lucky enough to find true love, take it.
That being said, my oldest brother is gay and I have nothing to do with him. Before you get all excited here, my decision to not have a relationship with him has nothing to do with his sexual preference. He is an alcoholic who treated my mother like crap, he is a self-centered, arrogant, condescending, full-blown a$$hole. He also sexually abused me when I was five years old and has the nerve to say that my memory of that was "planted" there by my counselor. Get over yourself. Just thinking of him makes my stomach hurt.
He will announce to anyone he meets, literally within the first few minutes, that he is gay. Who the hell cares? He has actually gone into job interviews and when they ask if there is anything else they need to know about him, he offers them this information. Again, who cares?
I have had several gay friends in my life and have loved all of them dearly. I don't care what their sexual preference is (just as I don't care about their color/heritage/religion/political affiliation), I care about how they treat me and their general attitude in life. I have had friends who I "suspected" were gay but it never was a big deal to me. They always "come out" to me and the only reason I can think of is that people can feel (or just know somehow) whether someone else will accept them as they are.
I also firmly believe that people are born with a determined sexual preference. As was said earlier, why in the world would anyone CHOOSE the discrimination that comes with being gay? I believe that ALL people should have the right to marry who they want. I also don't believe that any one group should get special privileges, meaning that if gay people just living together and not married get the same benefits as married people (insurance, etc.) then EVERY committed couple just living together and not married should get it also. The main group completely against gay marriage are usually the "bible-thumpers". I really, really don't intend to offend anyone with that term and I apologize if I do, BUT this group is always quick to quote the Bible as the determination that homosexuality is wrong. First of all, and this is my opinion only, the bible has been re-written by man (as a species) so many times, who is to say what, if any, of the original text remains? I don't believe that any "superior being" would allow a person to be born with a preference that would automatically condemn them.
My outlook on life is to "live and let live". As long as what you do does not affect me or my loved ones in negative manner, I will accept you as a friend.
*off my soapbox now*

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:39 PM
my Lodi girl,, very well said thank you..i'm sorry for what happened to you as a child. And i believe people who discriminate use the bible to hide behind..it doesn't say in the bible that we'll burn in hell, it says' we'll never rule in his kingdom,,,jeez the fags don't want to rule they just want to decorate. rotfl...


MMM you're going to learn a whole new meaning of gay bashing..:D

mummummum
February 15th, 2010, 02:50 PM
MMM you're going to learn a whole new meaning of gay bashing..:D

Frick you did see that didn't you :laughing:

By gay bashing you mean as in "we'll have a gay ole time?" :D

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:51 PM
Frick you did see that didn't you :laughing:

By gay bashing you mean as in "we'll have a gay ole time?" :D


wasn't quite what i had in mind, but if you pick me up on the way to hazels we'll talk about it.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 02:52 PM
my Lodi girl,, very well said thank you..i'm sorry for what happened to you as a child. And i believe people who discriminate use the bible to hide behind..it doesn't say in the bible that we'll burn in hell, it says' we'll never rule in his kingdom,,,jeez the fags don't want to rule they just want to decorate. rotfl...


MMM you're going to learn a whole new meaning of gay bashing..:D

:laughing::laughing::laughing:...omg aslan, I have a gay friend Mitchell who says that all the time!

Everything I've learned about decorating....came from my gay and lesbian friends.:D
Actually they come and decorate for me....:o

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 02:53 PM
:laughing::laughing::laughing:...omg aslan, I have a gay friend Mitchell who says that all the time!

Everything I've learned about decorating....came from my gay and lesbian friends.:D
Actually they come and decorate for me....:o

:laughing::laughing: see and until you posted that people thought i was kidding..the lesbians build it and the gays decorate.

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 03:06 PM
I gotta say, I love the direction that this thread has taken.

I'm pretty sure I always knew my sister was gay. We were close growing up and still are. I think spending so much time together as kids and teens I just noticed certain things that I can't really put my finger on.

When she was finally ready, she told our mom first. I was the last person she told and she felt horrible because she knew that I'd be the most supportive and she knew that I probably already suspected. I knew, and I never pushed her to come out to me, I waited for her.

Since then, I've done some reading on female sexuality and there're some interesting studies. The topic that caught my eye was the theory that female sexuality is fluid compared to men who are pretty static, they like what they like. period.

I've never met a gay person who made a point of telling me they were gay. Ever. In the course of conversations it sometimes becomes apparent, but vice versa, it becomes apparent that I'm straight.

We should get a rainbow flag in our smilies selection :D

Frenchy
February 15th, 2010, 03:09 PM
We should get a rainbow flag in our smilies selection :D

:laughing: too cute !

http://bestsmileys.com/rainbow/2.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/rainbow/3.gif

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:10 PM
i'm pretty happy with the way the thread is going too Stacer..My opinion is your sis came out to you last BECAUSE she knew you'd support her, just incase or if someone else didn't she'd have you to comfort her.:thumbs up

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 03:17 PM
She was actually forced out a little sooner that she would have liked by my brother's ex girlfriend. The ex was doing some internet stalking and found an online journal or something and confronted my sister about it. My sis knew this bitch wouldn't keep her mouth shut, so she told my mom and dad before they were told by other people. I think initially my sis was going to come out to me first, but after the ***** hit the fan and I was living in TO an hour away she had to make some quick decisions.

In any case, the story has a happy ending, my brother is no longer with the bitch, my family whole heartedly supports my sister, and even my grandma is down with it. Her girlfriends have always been immediately a part of the family.

She's single right now, anyone know any hot chicks in Edmonton?

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:19 PM
actually yes i think i just might.:D

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 03:20 PM
I'm headed there on wednesday. Give me names, lol

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:21 PM
lol, i'll get back to you,,you better be meeting up with pbpatti too young lady.

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I really should try to get in touch with some of the members while I'm out there.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:29 PM
guess i should say patti isn't the single hottie i was talking about..differant one.:D

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 03:33 PM
As far as overly sexual displays in public parades are concerned, I agree, NOT appropriate at all. I can easily see how it happens in a festive parade....but inappropriate. :2cents:

I have to be honest, I think I'm a prude...anything beyond handholding and a cheek peck or a hug passes into the realm of PDA/GET A ROOM...I don't care WHO is doing WHAT to WHOM, it's all inappropriate. :yuck:

I'm not a huge fan of parts of parades myself, really, for that reason (bendy=prude)...but I love stuff like the PFLAG groups and the families...:lovestruck: And all the cute couples :lovestruck: And the beer. :lovestruck:

Actually, it's mostly about the beer :p

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:34 PM
so if you talk DW into coming this year and we lose you i'll just look in the beer gardens.:thumbs up

Stacer
February 15th, 2010, 03:37 PM
So this year are we adding a pride meet up in addition to woofstock? :D

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 03:38 PM
sure what the heck,,if i'm not mistaken they were a weekend apart this year.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Ummm...did somebody say "beer gardens????

Where?.....mmmm....beer (insert drooly face here).

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 04:23 PM
Just look for me, LMPG, you'll find one! :D

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Well if I ever make it back out to Ontario (my home province), I'll be looking for you and aslan, and a few others....we'll go paint the town, or find a beer garden to raise hell in:D

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 04:39 PM
i'm so gonna hold you to that, i'll drive since i don't drink.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 04:42 PM
i'm so gonna hold you to that, i'll drive since i don't drink.

sounds like a plan!:D

My Lodi Girl
February 15th, 2010, 05:10 PM
Beer garden? What if you don't drink beer? Anyone heard of a whiskey or wine garden? I would be there with if I was a tinny bit closer to Canada :)
You all are just so cool. I have been on other forums (lurker :o) where a discussion like this ended up in a big fight.
It breaks my heart that a parent (especially a mother) would kick out or disown a child for anything, in particular at a time when support is needed the most. My mother, while not perfect, did not condone everything her children did, but we knew she always, always loved us (even the a$$hole! :laughing:)

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 05:29 PM
sounds like a plan!:D

oh forgot to mention, no drunken micheal buble singing in the car.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I second that *shudder*

Wait, is there a chance that could happen for real?

'Cause if there is I want nothing to do with these plans...:yuck:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 05:48 PM
we wont let LMPG bring her cd's,, and i'm driving so i can smack any hands trying to play his stuff.:thumbs up

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 06:03 PM
well, that's ok then

DoubleRR
February 15th, 2010, 06:15 PM
Good thread--great people on this forum! Pulleeeze no Micheal Buble anywhere. Just cannot listen to 'crooning' as they call that.
Have several friends and a couple of family members who have had a hard time of being gay. One nephew moved from the West Coast to Montreal and stayed there--where he felt comfortable and accepted. He is a great guy, who came out to his family in his teens--but we all knew it beforehand and no one gave him a hard time. However, his peers did, and apparently he had enough of small town mentality.
I know there are a few bad apples in any group that make it hard for the rest--as in some of the people Taco g has met. Too bad, because as a generalization--gays encompass most of the nicest people I know. I do not know why that is--it just is, in my experience.

14+kitties
February 15th, 2010, 06:20 PM
oh forgot to mention, no drunken micheal buble singing in the car.

:eek: :yell: DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!!!




:D Joking. I'm not crazy about a lot of his stuff either.

14+kitties
February 15th, 2010, 06:21 PM
May I just say I am very very proud of all of the replies in this thread. They have been well thought out and respectful. :thumbs up

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:22 PM
:eek: :yell: DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!!!


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

:D Joking. I'm not crazy about a lot of his stuff either.

there are times i don't mind his music, but i'm sooooo beyond sick of his new song and have you ever heard a bunch of drunks try and croon.

Double RR, glad you've met some of the good ones and not the ones TG met.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:23 PM
May I just say I am very very proud of all of the replies in this thread. They have been well thought out and respectful. :thumbs up

i have to agree with you 100% and i'm so proud of you and the others that have shared your own stories, i totally wasn't expecting this thread to take the turns that it has..:thumbs up

14+kitties
February 15th, 2010, 06:27 PM
:cry: OK, lovefest....... :grouphug:
That's enough now. :D I have to go watch some Olympics until House comes on.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:28 PM
olympic update,, team canada is kicking the crap out of the swiss in womens hockey...and mens snowboarding race thingy canada got a silver.

14+kitties
February 15th, 2010, 06:32 PM
olympic update,, team canada is kicking the crap out of the swiss in womens hockey...and mens snowboarding race thingy canada got a silver.

I watched the snowboarding. He was in the lead until the very last. Soooo close and so exciting!! :thumbs up

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:33 PM
oh i know eh we were yelling at the tv..the women are winning 9-1 in the hockey,,poor swiss goalie.:D i mean :(

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:34 PM
ooops 10-1

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 06:41 PM
i have to agree with you 100% and i'm so proud of you and the others that have shared your own stories, i totally wasn't expecting this thread to take the turns that it has..:thumbs up

And to everyone else who is reading and who may not feel comfie sharing their own experiences, I hope it's been a positive/affirming experience in some way. :grouphug:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 06:43 PM
And to everyone else who is reading and who may not feel comfie sharing their own experiences, I hope it's been a positive/affirming experience in some way. :grouphug:

oooopsy my bad,, yup to anyone that's just following along,, keep coming back.

Marcha
February 15th, 2010, 07:00 PM
And to everyone else who is reading and who may not feel comfie sharing their own experiences, I hope it's been a positive/affirming experience in some way. :grouphug:

I've been reading along today. And I agree it was a positive and affirming experience. I really have respect for the dialogue that took place. I was cautious to not respond, because I have had unpleasant experiences participating in topics about homosexuality, bisexuality, transgender and transvestite identities, and the various cultural norms and expectations, where everyone came out of the thread feeling bruised and battered and put down. It was refreshing to witness the respect in this topic.

:thumbs up

Marcha
February 15th, 2010, 07:00 PM
cross posted with Aslan.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:03 PM
i'm looking at it if someone is still closeted and this helps them feel better about themselves yay,,if someone is dealing with a family member coming out and it's helping again, yay,,someone dealing with abuse,molestation,discrimination or anything else. If anyone posting here has said something that is helping you out big yay.. or if you came here today with a less than friendly feeling towards gays and maybe just maybe you've changed your mind even a little then we did good.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 07:21 PM
oh forgot to mention, no drunken micheal buble singing in the car.

aweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :(.........ok how bout Cher? Can we sing Cher tunes?....

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:22 PM
aweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :(.........ok how bout Cher? Can we sing Cher tunes?....

maybe, depends on how drunk and slurry you are.

DoubleRR
February 15th, 2010, 07:24 PM
aweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :(.........ok how bout Cher? Can we sing Cher tunes?....

I love Cher- but not sung by drunks, lol.

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 07:26 PM
maybe, depends on how drunk and slurry you are.

ohhhh I'll be really drunk and slurry....I save that kind of behavior for special occassions;)....:laughing:

I can't believe I'm the only Michael Buble fan here.......:o

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:26 PM
I love Cher- but not sung by drunks, lol.

there you go, Double RR says nope..seriously,,gypshyyyy's cramps and beees''

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:27 PM
ohhhh I'll be really drunk and slurry....I save that kind of behavior for special occassions;)....:laughing:

I can't believe I'm the only Michael Buble fan here.......:o

ummm do you puke when you're drunk.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 07:27 PM
Our world after we are born can shape us in very concrete but also in very subtle ways... I can see how some people could be attracted to members of the same sex even if they are not gay if they were in the right environment.


Ha. I need to bring this one up again, I've been chewing on it all afternoon. It didn't sit right with me, but I wanted to be clear why. Here's what I came up with:

Marko, I think the logic here is flawed.

While I DO understand what you're trying to say about culture playing a role (i.e. reference to Greeks), here's a more modern example: in the Samoan culture there is a "third gender", the Fa'afafine...these are biological males who express their gender and sexuality in a more traditionally "feminine" way. It's transgenderism, really, or at least a particular expression of male homosexuality...and it may seem more prevalent there compared to our own society.

One could argue that the culture is "encouraging" or "shaping" the orientation of these people. I personally would argue that the mere fact that the Fa'afafine are accepted and considered a very normal part of the Samoan society allows those individuals to freely express who they innately are...as opposed to here, where people feel they must hide it. It is only in more recent times, with the influence of European/Western societal views, that the Fa'afafine are becoming fewer; our "modern" riducule/shunning has permeated into their society.

That sidebar aside, here's the main crux of my argument: you claim that if the environment was right, more people would assume "gay behaviour".

Well, let's flip that argument on it's head:

If the environment was right, more people would assume "straight behaviour".

The current cultural norm here is most certainly that of heterosexuality. As we've seen, it's the dominant expression of sexuality pretty much everywhere you turn. The assumption is that one is hetero until proven otherwise. Little boys are raised with the assumption that they will fall in love with girls, and vice-versa. Does that not describe an environment condusive to heterosexuality? It does to me.

Yet somehow, despite being born, raised and living in this environment, people STILL end up queer. If your assertion was correct, homosexuality/transgenderism etc. would be pretty much non-existant. I grew up with messages of heterosexuality EVERYWHERE, and...well...still totally gay. :D

Whaddaya think, Marko? :D

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 07:29 PM
aweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :(.........ok how bout Cher? Can we sing Cher tunes?....

Only "Believe" and only in a bar and only if I've had enough to fool me into thinking I sound faaaaaaaaabulous :laughing::laughing::laughing:

shirley1011
February 15th, 2010, 07:33 PM
Agree with Marcha...I tried hard just to stay out of this one...I got into quite a discussion on a chat room last week. I have a gay stepson who I knew was gay I think before he did but he is a great person and has a wonderful profession in what else
"commercial interior design". I have come to understand and respect his community of friends and understand all too well the hardships he went thru to get to where he is today.
Interesting thread and hats off to you Aslan for being so open and forthcoming...it has been an intersting day! on pets.ca but..........

I want to come to the meeting of the pets.ca friends and I promise I won't even sing!

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:33 PM
oh man i come back inside trying to avoid hearing grace:yuck: to the image of drunks singing I BELIEVE..:yell:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:35 PM
sure the more the merrier in my books.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 07:48 PM
oh man i come back inside trying to avoid hearing grace:yuck: to the image of drunks singing I BELIEVE..:yell:

LMAO, I do a GREAT "Cher" after a few beers, honest! :angel:

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:49 PM
LMAO, I do a GREAT "Cher" after a few beers, honest! :angel:

but i wont be have the few beer. i have to talk to your DW for confirmation.

edwina
February 15th, 2010, 07:50 PM
I am not gay, but i know what discrimination is all about. When i was a kid, i was chunky, i was poor so my clothes werent the best, and i was a sci fi geek. So i had a triple wammy. For years i thought i was stupid (even though i was an A and B student in school), and worthless. But after i got out of school and got my first job, i realized ( not to be mean or harsh) that i was alot smarter than i thought. And over the years i have grown to , like aslan said, not care about what people think of me, i am chubby, a scifi geek, and i dont care if you like me or not. :) Its amazing what kind of peace you can get when you get an i dont give a crap what you think attitude. :thumbs up
And as far as people using the bible or other religious book for an excuse not to accept gays, i cant see a good god sending someone to hell because they 'love' someone of the same sex. I have loved quite a few other women in my life, (mother, sister, friends), does that mean i am going to hell because i love someone of the same sex ? There is no difference between them.
Oh also , i am coming out of the closet with one thing, i have deep love for kitties. :o Or is it ovious. :rolleyes: :laughing:

Macomom
February 15th, 2010, 07:51 PM
Oh no. Cher impressions....

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 07:53 PM
Oh no. Cher impressions....

please tell me you don't want to sing them too..

Edwina, it is a good feeling when you realize the only opinion of you that matters is yours eh.:thumbs up

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 07:54 PM
but i wont be have the few beer. i have to talk to your DW for confirmation.

Anything she might tell you about my singing talents is a lie. Unless it's "SHE RAWKS", then that would be true.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 07:55 PM
please tell me you don't want to sing them too..

of COURSE she does (duh) :rolleyes:

Edwina, it is a good feeling when you realize the only opinion of you that matters is yours eh.:thumbs up

Thanks for sharing your story, Edwina! :grouphug:

Luvmypitgirls
February 15th, 2010, 08:03 PM
ohhhh ok, I won't sing....altho I do a wicked Patsy Cline impersonation.

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 08:04 PM
ohhhh ok, I won't sing....altho I do a wicked Patsy Cline impersonation.

if i say you can sing cher do you promise not to sing patsy cline,, nothing worse than a drunk babbling,,,crrraaaaazyyyy,,

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Iiii'm crazy for FEEEEEEEELLLLING sooOOOoooo LOOONLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! !!

LMAO

aslan
February 15th, 2010, 08:07 PM
now you're riding in the back seat young lady.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 08:15 PM
:frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:

luckypenny
February 15th, 2010, 08:41 PM
I have soo may comments to make but it'll be June by the time I have it written out the way I'm thinking it all :laughing:.

One point I do want to make...maybe it's a little obvious to you all but it took awhile before I understood it myself. I think we all, if we've been fortunate enough (I like to believe "fortunate" anyways), have experienced prejudices, abuse, etc., in one form or another in our lifetimes. And I think it's important to hang on to, or remember rather, that hurt so that we're empathic to the hurts of others. Regardless of the form it comes in, the bottom line is it's still the same and it's the one thing we all have in common. I just wish ppl would see the commonalities they share with others and learn about and celebrate the differences in a positive, caring light.

bendyfoot
February 15th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Well said, LP! :thumbs up

JennieV
February 15th, 2010, 10:45 PM
wow..what a read!

I have a couple of things to say:

Aslan, you are one of my closest friends. I feel that way not because you are gay but because you are who you are, a beautiful, caring, warm, funny, quirky, cool person, who gives a hoot and is not afraid to say whats on her mind. You have been an inspiration more than you know. And you have a cute butt! :laughing:

Over the course of my life I have seen a lot (like all of you). I have seen death, I have seen abuse... I have seen betrayal...I have seen a whole country fall apart...I have seen people do horrible things to each other. Some I experienced first-hand, unfortunately. All that made me who I am today. Every single thing I experienced has brought me knowledge and wisdom. Every person I met, good or bad taught me something.

I still look for best in people, I still believe in good, but it is very hard these days. Waking up and saying "today will be a good day" is sometimes the hardest thing to do. But we all do it. I just wish we could see beyond the labels and the names and the prejudice, into the soul of the person. To see who they ARE or AREN'T. And people I "met" here, on "pets" are remarkable in SO MANY ways!!!

So I don't really know how else to say it, except: I care about the person as a whole. Not one particular part of them. And the sexual orientation is the last thing I would ever want to know.

Excellent thread, Aslan!:thumbs up

Luvmypitgirls
February 16th, 2010, 01:36 AM
ummm do you puke when you're drunk.

Actually no I don't.....I did once when I was like 16...
To be honest, I don't drink very often, and when I do I like to get a buz going but that's about it.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 03:43 AM
Our world after we are born can shape us in very concrete but also in very subtle ways... I can see how some people could be attracted to members of the same sex even if they are not gay if they were in the right environment.

It would likely happen WAY more often if there were no stigma.

If this attraction builds up over time it can turn into love. I'll be honest here, personally I don't know anyone like this, my gay friends were born gay.

But take a look throughout history...Ancient Greece comes quickly to mind. Seems in certain environments where the expression of homosexuality is accepted, nurture plays a part.

Heterosexual and homosexual orientation to me is like handedness. You either are left-handed/ right-handed or you are not.

Attitudes towards handedness have changed considerably in the last 35 years. Left-handed people make up roughly 10% of the population. Being in the minority by a long stretch, it was assumed that something was wrong with them which could and should be corrected. Just like being LGBT.

In the world at large, with few societal exceptions (Incan and Buddhist being two) lefties were viewed as strange and sinister, clumsy, stupid and so on. Moreover, the "rightness" of being right-handed was reinforced by words. In almost all languages "left" is associated with something shameful, unnatural and bad. Just like being LGBT.

In the school and home environment, the rightness of being right-handed was enforced with cruel verbal and physical abuse. Additionally, left-handed children frequently had their left hand tied behind their back to force them to use their right hands. Most children in this environment learned to write with their right hands but used their left hand as the lead hand for all other tasks as this would generally go unnoticed. Many used their left hand to write in private. They never stopped being left-handed, they merely learned how to use their right hands to avoid stigma and punishment.

Just like the lefties in school who became righties when in the public eye, many LGBT folks had opposite sex relationships, got married and had families to conform to the status quo. Others denied their sexuality entirely and sought solace (or punishment) within the priesthood/ nunnery. Tragically many LGBT folks developed mental health and addiction problems, some were driven to suicide and still others, unless they were incredibly rich where the rules are different, were severely marginalized and lived life on the fringe. Lefties hid their handedness in school by using their right to write, LGBT folks hid their sexuality in public and lived life underground.

Attitudes towards handedness in a non-academic environment have always been different. When learning how to draw and paint, right-handed art students are advised to use their left hand as a means of exploring a deeper level of creativity and envisioning. In this environment, there is no stigma, no shame and left-handedness is viewed as something positive, freeing the budding artist to be creative without being judged. But, when the bell rings the right-handed artist doesn't become naturally left-handed anymore than the natural leftie, regardless of whether they have ever written a single letter with their left hand, regardless of how well they learn to write with their right-hand, can ever stop being a natural left-handed person.

In an environment which does not suppress sexuality, more self-identifying heterosexual people will feel free to explore the many forms of human sexual expression considered to be outside of the heterosexual norm. But that's all it is, exploration. The morning after the night before, the drunk college girl calls her boyfriend. Well, most do :D ~ others realize the only thing that was wrong with them was that there WAS nothing wrong with them.

But, can a life-long, self-identifying heterosexual person have a lasting intimate and loving relationship with a person of the same sex? Yes, but I would argue that they are not a heterosexual at all but are, rather, someone who is discovering and coming to terms with their sexuality where ever it may lie on the heterosexual-homosexual continuum.

Did a nurturing environment play a part in the development of that same-sex relationship? Yes, but only insofar as that self-identifying heterosexual person felt they had "permission" to explore and express their sexuality with that specific same-sex person. The right-handed person can indeed create a one-time masterpiece with their left hand but they will naturally and regularly use their right hand thereafter. A gay-positive environment will free people to explore their sexuality and because of that positive environment more people will discover themselves. or finally admit to themselves and the world, that they are LGBT. But it won't mean that a heterosexual will thereafter be naturally and regularly physically attracted to and seek out intimate relationships with people of the same sex anymore than a LGBT repressive society will mean that a gay or lesbian person will be naturally and regularly attracted to and seek out an someone of the opposite gender.

Defining sexual expression and attraction gets a little less linear when we talk about people who are intersexed, transgendered, bisexual and asexual. But that's another opus for another day.

On a final, and perhaps more serious note, all I can say is: Thank dawg, no one brought up straight men who love Broadway musicals. :D

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 05:20 AM
wow..what a read!
Aslan, you are one of my closest friends. I feel that way not because you are gay but because you are who you are, a beautiful, caring, warm, funny, quirky, cool person, who gives a hoot and is not afraid to say whats on her mind. You have been an inspiration more than you know. And you have a cute butt! :laughing:
Excellent thread, Aslan!:thumbs up

aaaw JennieV my montreal mistress. Funny when i went to montreal it was to work. I came home with some very special friendships, people i would bend over backwards to be there for. You are way up there on that list. I love that the friendship continued once i came home and that i have had you in my home on a few occassions. You know you're someone special when my shy wife took to you so quickly. I haven't been on msn alot lately but i hope you know i am always here for you if you need me.As for my butt, DD's i can't take credit for it, it came that way. Much love to you my good friend.:2huggers:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 05:21 AM
MMM i have to say that is one of the best explanations i have ever heard and i am so glad you took the time to put it in writing.:thumbs up

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 05:57 AM
MMM i have to say that is one of the best explanations i have ever heard and i am so glad you took the time to put it in writing.:thumbs up

Your welcome! (Every so often I like to exercise my right to be coherent :D)

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 06:11 AM
Aslan, where's that bowing smilie? MMM needs one of those.

Awesome MMM, simply awesome. :lovestruck:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:20 AM
you mean this little guy.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 07:13 AM
That's it, thenk yew. :thumbs up

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 07:53 AM
"I'm just honoured to be nominated." :laughing:

marko
February 16th, 2010, 09:04 AM
I appreciate what you wrote mumx3 and I buy most of it. Like I said in my post that you quoted, for the majority of gay people I do indeed believe nature rules, If I was forced to pull a number I might go as high as 90%. I just don't believe nature to be an immutable 'law' here.

The nature nurture controversy is such a part of who we are, so why can it not enter into this conversation for some gay people? Possibly because it's not PC at this point in time. Politics may play in here as well.

This is a very very complex issue though that we seem to want to pigeonhole. What even makes a person gay? do they need to have the 'gay gene'. If they don't have the gay gene, are they not 'really' gay? Does one experience make a person gay? Does repeated experiences make that person gay? Is a bisexual person gay? Is a bisexual person's 'gayness' different. Despite your extremely well written post mumx3, I would be surprised if you thought nurture played ZERO role in some of these cases. Just like most things on the planet there are likely 'shades of gay' as well.

But, can a life-long, self-identifying heterosexual person have a lasting intimate and loving relationship with a person of the same sex? Yes, but I would argue that they are not a heterosexual at all but are, rather, someone who is discovering and coming to terms with their sexuality where ever it may lie on the heterosexual-homosexual continuum.
This I don't agree with one bit. Change a person's 'environment' which INCLUDES social pressure and you can change someone's level of attraction to a member of the same sex. Not for all people for sure. But for WAY more than you would expect. Isolating environments where members of the opposite sex are unavailable allow this to happen much more easily. The desire for love and intimacy, imo, can override one's natural sexual preference in the right conditions. Never underestimate the power of social pressure. It can make people do things they would otherwise never do, JUST LIKE it can keep people from doing things that they might do.

What we REALLY need now in this thread are the opinions of a sociologist or social psychologist and a geneticist. If they were both gay, even better. I'd bet HARD that neither would say it's 100% nature all the time.

Thanks all - I love these fascinating topics :highfive:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 10:36 AM
This I don't agree with one bit. Change a person's 'environment' which INCLUDES social pressure and you can change someone's level of attraction to a member of the same sex. Not for all people for sure. But for WAY more than you would expect. Isolating environments where members of the opposite sex are unavailable allow this to happen much more easily. The desire for love and intimacy, imo, can override one's natural sexual preference in the right conditions. Never underestimate the power of social pressure. It can make people do things they would otherwise never do, JUST LIKE it can keep people from doing things that they might do.


Thanks all - I love these fascinating topics :highfive:

This part is where i'm going to disagree( i know big surprise eh, lol). I'm going to answer another question you asked first tho..What makes me gay isn't just the fact that i sleep with a person of the same sex. yes it is part of it, but it's also. I as a lesbian have the same feelings for a woman as you do marko. and my feelings towards a man are the same as yours. yes there are men in my life that i love, but not in the same way as i do a woman. The only difference between you and i is i can take my dangly bits off and put them in the dishwasher.

now why i disagree with your above quoted section. You can still thousands of men into a prison system together..Yes there are men that will turn to another man for sex ( usually forcefully). This doesn't make them gay in the least. In some instances it is for power, for some it's just a sexual release. None is for love, the search for a mate. These same men upon release from prison look for a woman to mate with.

14+kitties
February 16th, 2010, 10:41 AM
The only difference between you and i is i can take my dangly bits off and put them in the dishwasher.

Ewwww, I think that comes under the heading of TMI!!!!! :yuck: :D

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 10:44 AM
lol, sorry 14+..

14+kitties
February 16th, 2010, 10:48 AM
lol, sorry 14+..

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbs up
Keep up the great education!! Just don't need to know about the danglys. I have to deal with enough dicks in my house. :rolleyes:

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 10:50 AM
This I don't agree with one bit. Change a person's 'environment' which INCLUDES social pressure and you can change someone's level of attraction to a member of the same sex.



I have to go back to my last point...my environment and my social pressures all facilitate attraction to the opposite sex. Yet I'm NOT attracted to the opposite sex.

Just because people CAN and DO have sexual relationships with people of a particular gender, regardless of their environment/social pressures...it doesn't make them queer or straight. We can't define a person as queer/straight by their actions alone:shrug: There are TONS of people who engage in sexual activities with a same-sex partner who still identify as straight...the behaviour is not the determining factor here.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 10:55 AM
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbs up
Keep up the great education!! Just don't need to know about the danglys. I have to deal with enough dicks in my house. :rolleyes:

lol trade them in for one of our type, they don't talk, stay awake after, you don't have to feed them breakfast or do there laundry and as i pointed out,,,dishwasher safe.:D

14+kitties
February 16th, 2010, 11:02 AM
lol trade them in for one of our type, they don't talk, stay awake after, you don't have to feed them breakfast or do there laundry and as i pointed out,,,dishwasher safe.:D

But that would go against myorientation. I was born to like men. And, as you have been telling us, you can't change who you are. :thumbs up
Btw - mine doesn't talk (much), he does stay awake afterwards (it's me who wants to sleep), I very seldom feed him breaky, he will do laundry when he sees it needs done, and let him wash his own danglys thank you!! :D
Now I have to go to work so I can get paid for yesterday.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 11:07 AM
lol, ok then aslong as he fits the bill.. have a good one mf.

marko
February 16th, 2010, 11:20 AM
......

now why i disagree with your above quoted section. You can still thousands of men into a prison system together..Yes there are men that will turn to another man for sex ( usually forcefully). This doesn't make them gay in the least. In some instances it is for power, for some it's just a sexual release. None is for love, the search for a mate. These same men upon release from prison look for a woman to mate with.

What about in the Army or Navy where it's less about force and more about the lack of opposite sex opportunity. What about men fighting at war. Bonds are built in these 'extreme' environments. Feelings of love and devotion can rise from places we did not know existed. What about Heath Ledger's Character in Brokeback Mountain? Was he Bisexual, was he gay? What WAS he. The deeper you probe, the harder it is to answer the question, because it IS complex, because it's not black and white because nurture CAN SOMETIMES play a big part. (though not the majority of the time, IMO)

I have to go back to my last point...my environment and my social pressures all facilitate attraction to the opposite sex. Yet I'm NOT attracted to the opposite sex.

Just because people CAN and DO have sexual relationships with people of a particular gender, regardless of their environment/social pressures...it doesn't make them queer or straight. We can't define a person as queer/straight by their actions alone:shrug: There are TONS of people who engage in sexual activities with a same-sex partner who still identify as straight...the behaviour is not the determining factor here.

A sample of 1 or 2 is a very poor sample. I want 1000 random gay people to answer...THAT"S a sample....again I'd bet HARD that for some portion of that minority, nurture plays a role.

So what IS the determining factor? Too loaded a question because it is so complex. What makes someone male or female? Gonads, behaviour, self identification? What makes someone gay, only nature for all gay people?

No way.

(I GOT to do some work today but i will return later to stir it up again :D)

Thanks all!

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 11:30 AM
LOL, so come to Toronto for woofstock stay for Pride and you will have more gays than you know what to do with to ask..As for Brokeback mountain,,the character was gay living a hetro lifestyle. When push came to shove he chose the man.

your army navy comment is the same as my prison comment..lack of available women/men. The emotional bond they share is strong but not the " omg i love you and want to spend my life with you" its more " holy crap bombs are going off around me and i'm gonna die". Fear, stress etc will trigger a need for human companionship. Return those same soldiers home and back to their normal life they go.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 11:36 AM
:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::w all::wall::wall:

I lost my post... and it was a good one...:cry:

Luckily the rest of you made most of my points!

Except this one...

What we REALLY need now in this thread are the opinions of a sociologist or social psychologist and a geneticist.

:laughing: Egad no! <does best impression of The Scream> They'd get giddy on chamomile tea, yak your ear off and you would never get them to agree on anything!!!

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 11:37 AM
The only difference between you and i is i can take my dangly bits off and put them in the dishwasher.


:offtopic: Sandwich splattered all over the screen and keyboard....:yuck:

LUV this!!!

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 11:39 AM
doesn't hazel have a couple spare degree's...

hiya benmax,,sorry bout the sammich,,gotta poke fun sometimes.

marko
February 16th, 2010, 11:52 AM
The emotional bond they share is strong but not the " omg i love you and want to spend my life with you" its more " holy crap bombs are going off around me and i'm gonna die". Fear, stress etc will trigger a need for human companionship. Return those same soldiers home and back to their normal life they go.

You cannot know this to be true for anyone except yourself....Some soldiers/people come back from special circumstances completely changed. That's pure nurture.

The gay population just like the straight population is a complex group (likely a melting pot in a city like Toronto/Montreal). We tend to think that just because it's true for me, it's True for all. And this is an error that humans make all the time.... We may be at the center of our own universes, but we are just 1 of 6.5 billion.

Although many gay people are similar....just go to a gay pride parade and you will see a variety of gay people coming from a variety of different backgrounds.....complex backgrounds.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 11:54 AM
There are lots of studies that support the notion that behaviour is not correlated to orientation, here's a few: (Emphases mine)

From: Sex in Australia: The Australian study of health and relationships, Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society. (Published as the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Public Health vol 27 no 2.):

The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date was conducted by telephone interview with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 2001/2002. The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual. Nevertheless, 8.6% of men and 15.1% of women reported either feelings of attraction to the same gender or some sexual experience with the same gender. Half the men and two thirds of the women who had same-sex sexual experience regarded themselves as heterosexual rather than homosexual.

From: Laumann, Edward O. (1994). The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States. University of Chicago Press. p. 299.

An extensive study on sexuality in general was conducted in the United States. A significant portion of the study was geared towards homosexuality. The results found that 8.6% of women and 10.1% of men had at one point in their life experienced some form of homosexuality. Of these, 87% of women and 76% of men reported current same-sex attractions, 41% of women and 52% of men had sex with someone of the same gender, and 16% of women and 27% of men identified as LGBT.[16]

Also, from The Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction:

Sexual orientation should be distinguished from sexual behavior. Sexual behavior are the sexual acts people engage in alone or with others and may not correlate or match-up with a person’s sexual orientation.

LOL I need to get some work done too! :D

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 11:55 AM
What about in the Army or Navy where it's less about force and more about the lack of opposite sex opportunity. What about men fighting at war. Bonds are built in these 'extreme' environments. Feelings of love and devotion can rise from places we did not know existed.


Oops - now you have stepped into my world.

Army, Navy, Airforce - This is a highly testorone world...male or female.

The bonds that are built in the military is that of commorades. There is no room for sexuality or expression of sexual interaction (in training and operational theatres). In garrison - that is a different story.

There are enough women now in field units to 'satisfy' any expression of sexual release. So that kills your theory all together.

However there are gay males and females in the military. Women are more expressive and 'accepted'. Males not.

Now you are right in one aspect which you posted previously. If this society was more open to homosexuals this indeed would 'allow' men and women to come out. Would women - they already do. Men?? No way. They will never be accepted. For those that did come out, there were and still are huge prejudisms.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 11:57 AM
you said you were going to work young man..

and nope if you look back at what i posted yesterday, i said that there are gays that turn to their own sex due to molestation, or other reasons.
and yes like any other group we are complex with our own crap whats the word i'm looking for,,i hate headaches..ok the lesbians, have lipstick lesbians, lesbians, dykes, bull dykes etc..In the normal situation away from things like pride the lesbians and gays even seperate from each other. In a larger city we even have seperate bars.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 11:58 AM
Although many gay people are similar....just go to a gay pride parade and you will see a variety of gay people coming from a variety of different backgrounds.....complex backgrounds.

I'm the first one to agree that no two queer people are alike, and quite frankly scoff at the notion of a "queer lifestyle" or even a "queer community" to be honest. We all have our own histories and our own way of living, to be sure.

BUT if, as you say, their backgrounds are so varied, how is it that they still manage to end up queer if environment plays such a strong role? What was the shared determining environmental factor? :confused:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 12:01 PM
I'm the first one to agree that no two queer people are alike, and quite frankly scoff at the notion of a "queer lifestyle" or even a "queer community" to be honest. We all have our own histories and our own way of living, to be sure.

BUT if, as you say, their backgrounds are so varied, how is it that they still manage to end up queer if environment plays such a strong role? What was the shared determining environmental factor? :confused:

good point bendy,,as you see marko bendy and i are both gay but totally differant personalities..don't know bendy's background, but i grew up in a big city suburb to homophobe parents, my one grandfather was a duplicate of Archie Bunker, my family is and was pretty screwed up. Both sisters are straight, have sons, been married blah blah,, i on the other hand:D

JennieV
February 16th, 2010, 12:03 PM
This part is where i'm going to disagree( i know big surprise eh, lol). I'm going to answer another question you asked first tho..What makes me gay isn't just the fact that i sleep with a person of the same sex. yes it is part of it, but it's also. I as a lesbian have the same feelings for a woman as you do marko. and my feelings towards a man are the same as yours. yes there are men in my life that i love, but not in the same way as i do a woman. The only difference between you and i is i can take my dangly bits off and put them in the dishwasher.

now why i disagree with your above quoted section. You can still thousands of men into a prison system together..Yes there are men that will turn to another man for sex ( usually forcefully). This doesn't make them gay in the least. In some instances it is for power, for some it's just a sexual release. None is for love, the search for a mate. These same men upon release from prison look for a woman to mate with.

aslan, I totally agree with you on the last part. I think that circumstances will play a major role in a situation of a prison or otherwise isolated situatuon, but that will not make men or women gay or lesbian. Same applies to those who choose to live that lifestyle by CHOICE. Its one's choice vs being born that way. In a prison, its still a choice of the person comitting the act, maybe not so much of the one on the receiving end (that's why it would be calle a rape), but if its concensual (SP?) it is a choice one makes at that time, but that does not make them gay by definition.

And LOL on the dishwasher! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 12:05 PM
aslan, I totally agree with you on the last part. I think that circumstances will play a major role in a situation of a prison or otherwise isolated situatuon, but that will not make men or women gay or lesbian. Same applies to those who choose to live that lifestyle by CHOICE. Its one's choice vs being born that way. In a prison, its still a choice of the person comitting the act, maybe not so much of the one on the receiving end (that's why it would be calle a rape), but if its concensual (SP?) it is a choice one makes at that time, but that does not make them gay by definition.

And LOL on the dishwasher! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

exactly, how long have me and grace been working on you and you still wont give in.:evil:

hello my dear friend,,, your friend here got me sick.

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=aslan;885799]exactly, how long have me and grace been working on you and you still wont give in.:evil:

QUOTE]

Exactly my point Alsan. Being in the military, there were many pressures for me personally. Males and females. My attraction were for the men though there were very sexy women in the army as well. I built wonderful relationships for the women there, yet I was straight and could do nothing to change this fact. As gorgeous as some were, as wonderful loving people there were, and no matter how tight our bond or how close our quarters were - I could not jump that fence because it was against my grain. If tried - very unsuccesful.:shrug:

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 01:14 PM
Alright I've gotten over myself. :D

Marko, you believe that social norms, cultural practices and environment have a causal effect not just on my sexual behaviour but on my sexual orientation and sexual identity itself.

You identify as a straight man. I don't know this but I will assume this: that you also behave as a straight man. Are there circumstances in which you would not behave as a straight man but rather as a gay man? Yes, we all agree that a change in one's environment, social norms and cultural practices can cause a change in behaviour.

Now, is there an environment, a cultural practice or a social norm in which you would stop identifying as a straight man? In other words, can I take away or add something to the context of your life which would cause you to completely change your sexual identity? If you say yes, then you are telling me that heterosexuality can be cured.

Now, we all chuckle at THAT one. But the truth is that 40 years ago homosexuality was pathologized. It was a psychiatric disorder listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical manual used by all North American psychiatrists and psychologists in clinical assessment and treatment of patients. The treatment or "cure" was Reparative therapy. While this did include counselling, the core of this "cure" was aversion therapy with the use of electro-shock paired with visual imagery upon detection of arousal. Another aversion therapy "cure" was the use of medications which made patients nauseous while they looked at same-sex images and ecstatic when they viewed heterosexual images.

Now that's a major contextual (environment, social norms, cultural practices) change intended and designed to effect both behaviour and identity wouldn't you say? Did it effect behaviour? Yes, patients learned to stop or avoid painful shocks by either suppressing their arousal or by repressing their desire to see same sex imagery in favour of heterosexual imagery. But did it cause a permanent change their sexual orientation and identity? I'm sure I don't need to tell you that there are no records confirming a permanent change in sexual identity of patients.

Sadly, this thinking / reparative therapy model continues today via the ex-gay movement led by fundamentalist religions in the States).

So Marko, how can we cure you of that pesky heterosexuality of yours? :D

My Lodi Girl
February 16th, 2010, 01:17 PM
..In the normal situation away from things like pride the lesbians and gays even seperate from each other. In a larger city we even have seperate bars.

Several years ago, I visited my oldest brother (when we still had a relationship) while he was living in New York City and one thing I noticed is that lesbians and gays did not really associate with each other. I asked my brother why. He said that it is because the (most, not all) gays discriminated against the lesbians. I found this mind-boggling.
:offtopic: While I was visiting him in NYC, I was in one of my "I hate men, they are all a$$sholes, not dating any more" stages, he took me to a gay bar. I had the BEST time! Tons of gorgeous men to look at but knowing that none of them would be interested in me was very freeing. I made some good friends that night. Later when I told my brother what a good time I had, he told me that it was a test. I asked who were you testing and he said that he was testing me and his friends. He was testing me to see if I could really accept/like his gay friends and he was testing them to see if they would accept/like me in spite of my southern accent. We all passed with flying colors. Who would have thought that discrimination exists because of one's accent? Evidently, to some people, a southern accent equals stupidity (and I'm blonde!) Discrimination is subtle at times but it is there.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:22 PM
So Marko, how can we cure you of that pesky heterosexuality of yours? :D

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

excellent argument Mumx3:thumbs up

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 01:24 PM
Now, is there an environment, a cultural practice or a social norm in which you would stop identifying as a straight man? In other words, can I take away or add something to the context of your life which would cause you to completely change your sexual identity? If you say yes, then you are telling me that heterosexuality can be cured.



Oooh, this is good (and a question I wanted to ask, but you followed it up with a MUCH better addendum than I was thinking of)

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:27 PM
yup lodi ignorance knows no boundaries unfortunately..I personally don't like or dislike gays. I dislike idiots. i do know that a large majority of the lesbian community distances themselves from gays due to HIV/AIDS. The lesbians by far are much more relationship oriented where as the gays tend to be more promiscuous. In this day and age HIV should have been stopped in it's tracks but it hasn't. I personally have been in a bar and seen two men leave together for umm obvious reasons, only to see one of the two re-appear later on and leave with someone else. No I'm not saying it's every gay that is like this, but there are quite a few. The two groups tend to lead severally differant lifestyles that we just don't inter-mingle much.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 01:31 PM
I dislike idiots..

This made me LOL

But this:


The two groups tend to lead severally differant lifestyles that we just don't inter-mingle much..

Come on, NOW who's perpetuating stereotypes? :rolleyes: Yes, yes, some people are like that, but not everyone. I know plenty of women who behave the way you say the men are behaving, and plenty of men who live in domestic bliss with their hubbies and kids and picket fences. Let's not overgeneralize. *tut tut*

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:34 PM
and if you go back and read what i wrote i said not all are like this, but quite a few are..

In downtown toronto if you've ever been here, there are gay bars and lesbian bars only a couple that intermingle. yes there are trampy lesbians just as there are nesting gays. What would your answer be as to why the two don't intermingle on a larger basis.

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 01:38 PM
What would your answer be as to why the two don't intermingle on a larger basis.

I will take a crack at it - not much in common? Not the same interests?:shrug:

Just the same as to why I don't hang out with jocks?? As in 'This indian can't jump'?

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:43 PM
I will take a crack at it - not much in common? Not the same interests?:shrug:

Just the same as to why I don't hang out with jocks?? As in 'This indian can't jump'?

which is pretty much exactly what i said with totally different lifestyles...the actual downtown gays/lesbians are different again from us suburban homo's too.

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 01:48 PM
which is pretty much exactly what i said with totally different lifestyles...the actual downtown gays/lesbians are different again from us suburban homo's too.

And therefore I understand.:thumbs up

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:50 PM
And therefore I understand.:thumbs up

i knew i could count on you..:cry::grouphug:

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 01:51 PM
which is pretty much exactly what i said with totally different lifestyles...the actual downtown gays/lesbians are different again from us suburban homo's too.

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa there Nelly. I live downtown. :evil:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa there Nelly. I live downtown. :evil:

ummmm are you outing yourself.:D

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 02:03 PM
ummmm are you outing yourself.:D

Absolutely, I've always been open with my friends, family and colleagues about the fact that I live downtown. :p

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 02:04 PM
Absolutely, I've always been open with my friends, family and colleagues about the fact that I live downtown. :p

lol, remember that new form of gay bashing i was telling you about..:evil:

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 02:07 PM
lol, remember that new form of gay bashing i was telling you about..:evil:

A gay bash. Sure, I'm up for a lesbian gala. Just let me get my ballgown ironed. :D

Luvmypitgirls
February 16th, 2010, 02:13 PM
You identify as a straight man. I don't know this but I will assume this: that you also behave as a straight man. Are there circumstances in which you would not behave as a straight man but rather as a gay man? Yes, we all agree that a change in one's environment, social norms and cultural practices can cause a change in behaviour.


My mother identified herself as a straight woman, even tho she had a 5 yr intimate relationship with another woman. When the relationship ended, my mother never again had a relationship with another woman, instead she went back to dating men, eventually marrying again twice.
I asked my mother once, if she was a lesbian, to which she said absolutely not. I asked her why she hooked up with Martha if she wasn't a lesbian, her reply, "Martha filled a void in her life, it was the gentleness and understanding, the sense of safety, a different kind of love my mother never received from a "man".
So was my mother a lesbian, or was she heterosexual? Was she bisexual, there was only one relationship with a woman?

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 02:13 PM
A gay bash. Sure, I'm up for a lesbian gala. Just let me get my ballgown ironed. :D

ummmm ballgowns would be the gays hon not the lesbians.:laugh::laugh:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 02:19 PM
LMPG, i would say she is straight. As she said Martha filled a void at the time. Most women have other women friends to fill that void, your mom just took it one step further..That too may have had to do with the drinking..people, places things..

marko
February 16th, 2010, 02:22 PM
Alright I've gotten over myself.

Marko, you believe that social norms, cultural practices and environment have a causal effect not just on my sexual behaviour but on my sexual orientation and sexual identity itself.

NO. I do not say that it DOES have a casual effect. I say that in the right circumstance in CAN have an effect. My only goal here is to suggest the possibility that nurture 'can potentially' play a role in the lives of some gay people. I'm very surprised that so far, not 1 person besides me in this thread thinks this is possible.

You identify as a straight man. I don't know this but I will assume this: that you also behave as a straight man. Are there circumstances in which you would not behave as a straight man but rather as a gay man? Yes, we all agree that a change in one's environment, social norms and cultural practices can cause a change in behaviour.

So far, I have not ever 'behaved' in a gay way or longed for same sex companionship. I'm a full on hetero, happy with it, I don't ever see that changing for me in this life.

But I'm a curious person by nature and I love to debate, learn and yes, play devil's advocate in an effort to understand things better.

Now, is there an environment, a cultural practice or a social norm in which you would stop identifying as a straight man? In other words, can I take away or add something to the context of your life which would cause you to completely change your sexual identity? If you say yes, then you are telling me that heterosexuality can be cured.

IF you changed my world drastically so that the social pressure also changed drastically, I WOULD BE A DIFFERENT PERSON....and so would HUGE numbers of people. This is Ancient Greece, NO? If I got transported back in time where instead of 10% of a gay population it was closer to 30% of men in a certain social class or subculture... that's an incredible change in social pressure that (IMO) has ZERO to do with genetics.

Again very strong social pressure. Does it cure anyone of heterosexuality? No way. But in such an environment, it NURTURES homosexual behaviour. It does not stigmatize it. Does nobody see this but me? Is this line of thought so freakish, so outlandish?

Now, we all chuckle at THAT one. But the truth is that 40 years ago homosexuality was pathologized. It was a psychiatric disorder listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical manual used by all North American psychiatrists and psychologists in clinical assessment and treatment of patients. The treatment or "cure" was Reparative therapy. While this did include counselling, the core of this "cure" was aversion therapy with the use of electro-shock paired with visual imagery upon detection of arousal. Another aversion therapy "cure" was the use of medications which made patients nauseous while they looked at same-sex images and ecstatic when they viewed heterosexual images.

Now that's a major contextual (environment, social norms, cultural practices) change intended and designed to effect both behaviour and identity wouldn't you say? Did it effect behaviour? Yes, patients learned to stop or avoid painful shocks by either suppressing their arousal or by repressing their desire to see same sex imagery in favour of heterosexual imagery. But did it cause a permanent change their sexual orientation and identity? I'm sure I don't need to tell you that there are no records confirming a permanent change in sexual identity of patients.

Sadly, this thinking / reparative therapy model continues today via the ex-gay movement led by fundamentalist religions in the States).

I obviously disagree with that practice. It screwed up generations of gay people. We were stupider back then. We are somewhat smarter now

So Marko, how can we cure you of that pesky heterosexuality of yours?

I don't think you can...because you don't have the power to change my world drastically enough...





My mother identified herself as a straight woman, even tho she had a 5 yr intimate relationship with another woman. When the relationship ended, my mother never again had a relationship with another woman, instead she went back to dating men, eventually marrying again twice.
I asked my mother once, if she was a lesbian, to which she said absolutely not. I asked her why she hooked up with Martha if she wasn't a lesbian, her reply, "Martha filled a void in her life, it was the gentleness and understanding, the sense of safety, a different kind of love my mother never received from a "man".
So was my mother a lesbian, or was she heterosexual? Was she bisexual, there was only one relationship with a woman?

THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Remove the stigma and this experience will become more and more common. Thanks for sharing it LMPG.

Back to work for me :D Thx - Marko

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 02:41 PM
i'm loving this convo between you guys,, carry on.

Mumx3 lets see what i can do for you..

crossdress-straight male likes to dress in womens clothes
transvestite-gay male who likes to dress in womens clothes
drag-queen- gay male who dresses in very campy womens clothes bright wigs and all, sometimes(not saying all the time bendy will smack me) to do drag shows

transgender/transexual- male or female born one sex but having all the feelings and desires of the other.

ancientgirl
February 16th, 2010, 02:53 PM
I love drag queens.

Luvmypitgirls
February 16th, 2010, 03:19 PM
LMPG, i would say she is straight. As she said Martha filled a void at the time. Most women have other women friends to fill that void, your mom just took it one step further..That too may have had to do with the drinking..people, places things..

People,places and things yes, but not drinking, while she was with Martha it was the longest my mother was ever sober. She began drinking again near the end of the relationship, according to her it was because she met a man and didn't want to hurt Martha, the "stress" caused her to drink, not a very good excuse but it was hers.
Martha, ended the relationship because Martha wouldn't tolerate drinking, as she herself was a recovering alcholic and had almost 20 yrs sobriety. I commend her for not jepordizing her sobriety for my mother.
Martha, was the closest thing I ever had to a "dad", even tho it was a bit of an adjustment for me, I came to love Martha as a "parent figure".
I think about her a lot and hope that she found the love of her life and is happy.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 03:21 PM
and if you go back and read what i wrote i said not all are like this, but quite a few are..

In downtown toronto if you've ever been here, there are gay bars and lesbian bars only a couple that intermingle. yes there are trampy lesbians just as there are nesting gays. What would your answer be as to why the two don't intermingle on a larger basis.

lol, yes I've been to downtown TO, and frequented a handful of bars. Do I know the scene there intimately, definitely not. Why do gay men and lesbians not intermingle on a larger basis? I haven't the foggiest idea to be honest with you, I've never understood the "us" vs "them" mentality.

which is pretty much exactly what i said with totally different lifestyles...the actual downtown gays/lesbians are different again from us suburban homo's too.

So, from what you're describing, it's not so much that gay men and lesbian women don't hang out because it's "gay vs lesbian" (i.e. gender related), but that people with shared interests are congregating in particular areas/bars. THAT I can agree to. If it's "trampiness with someone of the same sex" that's the shared interest :p, then it makes sense to have bars that cater to that and not see intermingling there. If it's "nesting with someone of the same sex", I can understand seeing more overlapping between gay/lesbian friendships (which is more what I've experienced...but I've never been huge on going to bars). It makes sense that if one was more exposed to, say, the "trampiness" scene, one might be inclined to feel there's more of a divide (perhaps artificially?) between guys/gals; whereas if one was exposed more to the "nesting" scene, that divide might seem (perhaps artificially?) to be much less significant. Makes me wonder what all the folks who don't really hang out in EITHER scene would say about the gay/lesbian divide?

(Long story short, after much rambling, I think we agree :laughing:)

THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Remove the stigma and this experience will become more and more common. Thanks for sharing it LMPG.


But Marko, she's NOT saying that her mother was queer, or self-identified as queer (i.e. ORIENTATION), she's saying that her mother engaged in certain BEHAVIOURS for a time. BEHAVIOUR doesn't equal ORIENTATION. The fact that she was with a woman for a while doesn't mean she was/is/will be gay.

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 03:22 PM
I love drag queens.

I don't. Their make-up, shoes and attire make me look like a hoodlem. Puts me to shame.:o

marko
February 16th, 2010, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Remove the stigma and this experience will become more and more common. Thanks for sharing it LMPG.


But Marko, she's NOT saying that her mother was queer, or self-identified as queer (i.e. ORIENTATION), she's saying that her mother engaged in certain BEHAVIOURS for a time. BEHAVIOUR doesn't equal ORIENTATION. The fact that she was with a woman for a while doesn't mean she was/is/will be gay.

Aren't you proving my point? There's no genetics here. This is pure NURTURE....


Although LMPGs mom didn't self identify with being gay.....a 5 year exclusive same sex sexual relationship? What type of relationship would you call that? For me that's a gay relationship and her orientation was not heterosexual (in the conventional sense of heterosexual) while she was in that relationship for 5 years.

Again my only point here was that genetics did not pay a part here...only the nurturing environment did. And that this type of 'non genetic' gay relationship does happen even though the prevalent thought is that gay people are born gay. Most are imo, but as this example demonstrates, not always.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 03:41 PM
LOL :laughing:

O/T (well, not about drag queen or BenMax's aversion to sparkly makeup:laughing:) I just want to be clear, too, that I'm trying to use the term "queer" here as much as possible (unless I specifically mean "pretty much totally homosexual") because I think all of this applies to people who identify as bisexual (or whatever term they choose to describe where they sit on the continuum of human sexuality, I know not everyone likes the either/or-ness of many labels we tend to use in everyday conversation).

BenMax
February 16th, 2010, 03:43 PM
Aren't you proving my point? There's no genetics here. This is pure NURTURE.

Nooo. This is called an experiment or a substitute for something else.

Marko - many women have more of a tendancy to 'try' something but like an elastic band that regains it's original state, they go back to what genetically drives them. I do not see this as being nurture.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 03:44 PM
Aren't you proving my point? There's no genetics here. This is pure NURTURE.

No, I'm not at all. You're still equating behaviour with orientation. It's not the same. If I chose to have sex with a man, it won't make me heterosexual, or even bisexual. Granted: a person's environment may open an opportunity to engage in a particular action action (behaviour), but it would not change that person's make-up (orientation).

If you had sex with a man tonight would that mean you suddenly are queer? Or did you simply have a sexual encounter with another man?

marko
February 16th, 2010, 04:36 PM
We are not talking about a one night stand, we are not talking about some curiosity here or experimentation.....We are talking about a deeply loving exclusive sexual relationship between 2 women for five years...not 5 minutes or 5 days...5 years.

If I had that same relationship for 5 years? exclusively? I call that gay. Gay and a product of Nurture.. it's a rarer beast but it happens.

Still surprised not 1 person sees any validity here; you chicks are tough :)

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 04:43 PM
We are not talking about a one night stand, we are not talking about some curiosity here or experimentation.....We are talking about a deeply loving exclusive sexual relationship between 2 women for five years...not 5 minutes or 5 days...5 years.

If I had that same relationship for 5 years? exclusively? I call that gay. Gay and a product of Nurture.

But the person who was IN that relationship did NOT call it gay.

And then all her subsequent relationships were exclusively with men. Where did the queer go?:confused:

So you are really saying that a person's actions are what define them as queer/straight.

Huh.

What about the people who live in heterosexual marriages for decades, then later come out as queer?

What about people who identify as queer years before they even have any sexual/intimate contact/relationships with someone of the same sex, even little kids who identify that way?

marko
February 16th, 2010, 04:57 PM
That person did not call herself gay after the relationship ended, but it was a gay relationship while it existed.

Let's see - it wasn't just friends, and it wasn't a heterosexual relationship
....so in your opinion what type of relationship was it? and was that relationship a product of genetics or something else?

Is sexual behavior toward the same sex not part of being gay?
Is loving a member of the same sex not part being gay?
Is being attracted to that member of the same sex not part of being gay?

Please define gay for me then.

marko
February 16th, 2010, 05:14 PM
Just wanted to add that I'm really enjoying participating in this thread.....
...and now I know why so many people surf and post on our board during their workdays. It's SO much more stimulating than the actual tasks at hand .:laughing:

ancientgirl
February 16th, 2010, 05:19 PM
I don't. Their make-up, shoes and attire make me look like a hoodlem. Puts me to shame.:o

LOL, I love the sparkly make-up and gowns. I've been watching RuPauls drag race, and let me tell you, I'm getting some really good make-up pointers. Some of those girls are GORGEOUS!!!

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 05:32 PM
That person did not call herself gay after the relationship ended, but it was a gay relationship while it existed.

Behaviour, not orientation.

Let's see - it wasn't just friends, and it wasn't a heterosexual relationship
....so in your opinion what type of relationship was it? and was that relationship a product of genetics or something else?


The RELATIONSHIP (the behaviour) was "gay"...the PERSON was not (orientation).

Is sexual behavior toward the same sex not part of being gay?
It could be, if a person is sexual. Some people are not sexual and still identify as queer. It's not a prerequisite

Is loving a member of the same sex not part being gay?
It could be, if a person is in a relationship. Some people are not in relationships and still identify as queer. It's not a prerequisite

Is being attracted to that member of the same sex not part of being gay?
Yes, being queer involves attraction to a person of the same sex. That is that person's orientation. But no actions are required in order to make their orientation "real".

Please define gay for me then.

From the American Psychiatric Association:

"Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person's sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions."


What about the people who live in heterosexual marriages for decades, then later come out as queer?

What about people who identify as queer years before they even have any sexual/intimate contact/relationships with someone of the same sex, even little kids who identify that way?

OK, now your turn! :D


What about the people who live in heterosexual marriages for decades, then later come out as queer?

What about people who identify as queer years before they even have any sexual/intimate contact/relationships with someone of the same sex, even little kids who identify that way?

Just wanted to add that I'm really enjoying participating in this thread.....
...and now I know why so many people surf and post on our board during their workdays. It's SO much more stimulating than the actual tasks at hand .:laughing:

Me too, I love a good, intelligent, respectful debate! :thumbs up

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 05:54 PM
:wall:I've lost this post three times now

on the upside it just gets shorter and shorter

:fingerscr

Marko, I thought the "can" in my post was implied. Apologies.

Okay Marko, here it is: if I transport Liberace back in time to the Isle of Lesbos, can Sappho "turn" him?

I say not bloody likely but that wouldn't stop them from doing the hokey-pokey.

You say, if they did the hokey-pokey and Liberace really, really liked Sappho, he might relinquish his membership in the Sequined Fedora Club and admit to his lesbian-lovin' nature.

I believe that we will agree to disagree.

Open question:

Okay then...I gender-identify as a woman. If you remove my breasts, my ovaries and my uterus ~ everything that makes my gender female ~ am I still a woman?

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 05:55 PM
:
Okay then...I gender-identify as a woman. If you remove my breasts, my ovaries and my uterus ~ everything that makes my gender female ~ am I still a woman?

ooooooh, and THERE she goes!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:12 PM
i'm loving this convo between you guys,, carry on.

Mumx3 lets see what i can do for you..

crossdress-straight male likes to dress in womens clothes
transvestite-gay male who likes to dress in womens clothes
drag-queen- gay male who dresses in very campy womens clothes bright wigs and all, sometimes(not saying all the time bendy will smack me) to do drag shows

transgender/transexual- male or female born one sex but having all the feelings and desires of the other.

Is this a menu ? I'm not errrmmm "hungry" but thanks for thinking of me! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

And just to clarify your point for folks for whom this may be an edumecation:

It is generally held that transgendered/ transexual folks are men and women who gender-identify as the opposite sex. They identify with neither the body they were born with or in some cases, to which they were assigned nor with the usual gender roles associated with that body. They see it as a completely false representation of who they are as people. Their sexual orientation can be straight, queer, polysexual, bisexual, pansexual and asexual. There are some folks within the community who put forward the argument that sexual orientation and identity, normative gender roles, in fact the construct of gender itself, does not apply to them.


:fingerscr Please wiffy, don't be iffy :fingerscr

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:16 PM
ooooooh, and THERE she goes!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Hey, it's a TOUGH one. I KNOW there won't be anything even close to agreement on this one.

Ladies and Gentlemen...the concept of the third gender. In fact the construct of gender itself.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Just wanted to add that I'm really enjoying participating in this thread.....
...and now I know why so many people surf and post on our board during their workdays. It's SO much more stimulating than the actual tasks at hand .:laughing:

I know eh and we were worried how this was gonna go..gotta say to everyone who has posted, those lurking. please give yourselves a round of applause. I love that some have chosen to share their experiences, be it gay or some other issue from their life..I am also pleased that not one person has posted anything remotely bash related..i don't fool myself to think everyone agree's with this topic but you are being respectful..

now marko as Bendy stated in her own way, to have a homosexual fling, relationship, thought, doesn't make you gay..LMPG's mother had a homosexual relationship but i don't consider her to be homosexual. I consider that she felt something she needed at that time, but obviously nurture or not, when all was said and done she went back to her comfortable orientation.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:27 PM
ummmm ballgowns would be the gays hon not the lesbians.:laugh::laugh:

Are you calling me a gay-wannabe ?? :laughing:

Actually I was making a bit of a joke. Gala stands for Gay and Lesbian Acceptance. http://www.galaweb.org/ :thumbs up

luckypenny
February 16th, 2010, 06:28 PM
Their sexual orientation can be straight, queer, polysexual, bisexual, pansexual and asexual.

You mean there's more :eek: . And I thought I had it figured out :laughing: .

I consider that she felt something she needed at that time, but obviously nurture or not, when all was said and done she went back to her comfortable orientation.

Do you mean to say she chose to go back to her original sexual orientation?

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Are you calling me a gay-wannabe ?? :laughing:

Actually I was making a bit of a joke. Gala stands for Gay and Lesbian Acceptance. http://www.galaweb.org/ :thumbs up

:eek: omg nooooo really...

since we're adding a 3rd gender we could add homaphrodites fondly known as moretobites.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:31 PM
You mean there's more :eek: . And I thought I had it figured out :laughing: .



Do you mean to say she chose to go back to her original sexual orientation?

There's always more LP...

She didn't "go back", she never left. Her single, albeit long-term and loving relationship with a woman did not "turn" her from being straight to lesbian anymore than the Sappho (historical Greek Lesbian poet) could "turn" Liberace.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:32 PM
no i meant comfortable..my original orientation was straight, wasn't comfortable...but i take it you're meaning it the same way i do.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:32 PM
:eek: omg nooooo really...

since we're adding a 3rd gender we could add homaphrodites fondly known as moretobites.

OMDawg I can't believe YOU said that.

Intersexed people is the appropriate term. :thumbs up

Macomom
February 16th, 2010, 06:33 PM
I identified as a lesbian for many years (school through through my twenties) and then married someone I fell in love with, who happened to be a man.
It was a huge shock for me, not to mention the woman I had been planning to start a family with.
Does that mean I am still a lesbian with straight behaviours?

People were very, very quick to call me straight (and not in a nice way0 and I fell out of all the queer cliques faster than you can imagine.

Much more socially acceptable to be straight and "explore" than to be gay and "go straight".

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:34 PM
OMDawg I can't believe YOU said that.

Intersexed people is the appropriate term. :thumbs up

technically if you told them to go ...well you know,,,they could. actually one of the nicest people i ever met,,,next to LP of course was a homaphrodite.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 06:34 PM
Hey, it's a TOUGH one. I KNOW there won't be anything even close to agreement on this one.

Ladies and Gentlemen...the concept of the third gender. In fact the construct of gender itself.

Aaaaaand there goes the ballgame! :D Love it!

Boy oh boy this was already a great discussion, this is gonna blow their socks off. :D



Do you mean to say she chose to go back to her original sexual orientation?

Nope, she never left it in the first place

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:35 PM
I identified as a lesbian for many years (school through through my twenties) and then married someone I fell in love with, who happened to be a man.
It was a huge shock for me, not to mention the woman I had been planning to start a family with.
Does that mean I am still a lesbian with straight behaviours?

People were very, very quick to call me straight (and not in a nice way0 and I fell out of all the queer cliques faster than you can imagine.

Much more socially acceptable to be straight and "explore" than to be gay and "go straight".

the answer to that would depend on you..are you still interested in women too, was this man the only man you've been attracted to, etc, etc..bi-sexual is in there too don't forget.

luckypenny
February 16th, 2010, 06:36 PM
She didn't "go back", she never left.

But that's not what Aslan said :shrug: :confused:.


Her single, albeit long-term and loving relationship with a woman did not "turn" her from being straight to lesbian anymore than the Sappho (historical Greek Lesbian poet) could "turn" Liberace.

I wonder if, at the time, she didn't consider herself lesbian or bisexual :shrug:.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:37 PM
Aaaaaand there goes the ballgame! :D Love it!

Boy oh boy this was already a great discussion, this is gonna blow their socks off. :D

yup i'm seeing a few people reading this going :eek:

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:39 PM
But that's not what Aslan said :shrug: :confused:.

yes i phrased it a way that the other two could jump on LP leading poor you astray. So i will re-phrase for them..when her homosexual encounter ended her next relationship was with a man as it was the comfortable orientation.

mummummum
February 16th, 2010, 06:41 PM
technically if you told them to go ...well you know,,,they could. actually one of the nicest people i ever met,,,next to LP of course was a homaphrodite.

Okay...are you being funny?

Hermaphrodite is no longer a term in common usage or accepted.

Intersex refers to people who are born which sexual characteristics of both genders. I'm going to way oversimplify things here just to keep the discussion clear. An intersexed child is one who is born with, let's say, what appears to be a large clitoris but no uterus or ovaries. Parents and doctors then must make a decision as to which gender to assign to that child.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Does that mean I am still a lesbian with straight behaviours?



Not at all...if your orientation is such that you are attracted to both genders, and that is how you self-identify.

The discussion here has been very black/white ("gay" vs "straight") for some people...personally I've been saying "queer" because I think all this encompasses ALL expresssions of sexuality. Bottom line: you are what you are. Only YOU know what that identity is. Behaviours can change, but the orientation does not (IMO). The example of LMPG's mother was one where the person in question did NOT identify as queer. If someone who identifies as bisexual is in a relationship first with a person of one gender, then with a person of another gender, no one could reasonably say that it was just a "behaviour". :2cents:

luckypenny
February 16th, 2010, 06:45 PM
no i meant comfortable..my original orientation was straight, wasn't comfortable...but i take it you're meaning it the same way i do.

You're confusing me :yell:. You're "original orientation"? What was your original orientation? I thought orientation is something one is born with, not one that's chosen :confused:.

Parents and doctors then must make a decision as to which gender to assign to that child.

Is it uncommon these days that they wait until the child is older to decide for themselves?

Macomom
February 16th, 2010, 06:47 PM
No I understand it is all about self definition :D
What an interesting read. I do think Aslan raised a good point awhile ago though that the bisexual label can be challenging because it doesn't fit into either group. I think many people still use that label as the catch-all for everyone who falls out of straight/gay.
I like the use of queer. I find that many people in the bdsm/fetish communities use it to define themselves as well because they are just not "normal" as the general population knows it.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:47 PM
Okay...are you being funny?

Hermaphrodite is no longer a term in common usage or accepted.

Intersex refers to people who are born which sexual characteristics of both genders. I'm going to way oversimplify things here just to keep the discussion clear. An intersexed child is one who is born with, let's say, what appears to be a large clitoris but no uterus or ovaries. Parents and doctors then must make a decision as to which gender to assign to that child.

yes i'm being funny..

i knew i was spelling it wrong but darned if i could remember how to spell it. The one that intrigues me is who decided it wasn't acceptable. somehow you know it was the scientific community.

aslan
February 16th, 2010, 06:49 PM
You're confusing me :yell:. You're "original orientation"? What was your original orientation? I thought orientation is something one is born with, not one that's chosen :confused:.?

LP LP LP..if i type this out will it unconfuse you or do i have to phone.

bendyfoot
February 16th, 2010, 06:50 PM
I know many people are uncomfortable with "queer", but it has the potential to be so much more inclusive, as you just said. I feel uncomfortable, personally, saying "bisexual" unless someone identifies that way...I don't like to pigeon-hole people into a label that others have come up with.

Personally I like to use "queer" because in can also encompass matters of gender orientation/expression as well as sexual orientation (which may or may not be connected-:laughing: oh what tangled webs we weave!)

luckypenny
February 16th, 2010, 06:52 PM
Type it out, just use easy words :D.

Macomom
February 16th, 2010, 06:53 PM
Bendy, I heard this new term the other day...soft core queer...brilliant, isn't it???:D