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Curious. How do my fellow cat people feel about cat discrimination?

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 12:02 PM
CearaQC posted a lovely article in the news section about a church experimenting with allowing dogs into their services once a month.

I thought that was a great idea, but it made me feel a bit of jealousy.

Now, I am fully aware that it's easier, much easier, to take a dog with you on daily errands and outings. They are used to being on a leash and follow commands better than cats. But, I often feel like cats are second class citizens in the pet department.

MSNBC has a video section, and I sometimes watch videos of the Today show having their pet segment. I have yet to really see a segment which includes a cat. They always have like pet adoption segments, and many involve taking dogs in shelters, giving them a make-over and bringing them on TV in the hopes of someone seeing them will adopt them.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is wonderful and kudos to them for bringing awareness to this, but, where are the cats? They need homes too!

Yesterday I saw a video about hotels that allow you to bring your pets. All I saw were dogs. What if I have a cat? What service do they have for my cat?

Sheesh!

lUvMyLaB<3
October 2nd, 2009, 12:10 PM
I do agree.... and I know as someone that tries so hard to help the kitties... It is hard, cats sit for so long in rescue, and foster care... years sometimes, so hard with the damn free kittens EVERYWHERE... I hate it, there has to be laws on cat breeding, HAS to be otherwise there is no end it site, there will forever be too many.. People think of cats as independant, able to survive alone, and disposable... so much needs to change, If anything the cats need more attention and promotion, dogs need it too, but more attention needs to begin to be given to cats.

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2009, 12:25 PM
OMG, I was thinking the exact same thing as I was cleaning the house last night!!! I was thinking if they can bring their dogs, I want to bring my cats.

People seem to put dogs in a much higher regard than cats. :frustrated: Almost seem "specist" if you ask me.

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 12:26 PM
I agree, there should be more awareness. You hear so much about puppy mills, which are terrible, but you know there have to be kitten mills out there doing the same.

I just wish there was more attention paid to cat issues.

I hope you guys who have dogs here don't feel offended. I love dogs! I've been thinking for a long time of getting a small dog, but keep going back and forth with it because of how the cats might react, the room in the apartment and the expense.

onster
October 2nd, 2009, 12:39 PM
I get what youre saying and ive occasionaly thought of it but at the end of the day, even if i could, i wouldnt bring my cats out with me. Theyre more likely to freak out/get lost/become stressed.

When I have seen cats on adoption shows, unless therye kittens, the poor things look petrified.

That being said im sure there are cats out there that are the exception and do get to go out with their owners and such. I saw a talk show recently where one of the guests had their cat with them and I was amazed at how calm the cat was!

As for hotels, most that I know of allow cats if they allow dogs.

The other thing is for places like church dogs i think would be more likely to sit quietly next to their owners "sit stay" kinda thing. I cant imagine even if i had a cat that would be ok in a different setting that it would just sit next to me. Ya right. It would be like climbing the curtains or something!!! hahaha

so i guess im saying is i kind of think the way things are makes sense

14+kitties
October 2nd, 2009, 12:44 PM
In Cleo's day if someone harmed a cat they could be beaten. If it was proven they killed a cat they themselves could pay with their lives.Since Rome defeated Cleopatra's Eygpt eons ago the cat has been taken from being on pedestals to being throwaways. That was the start of the downfall of the cat.
That is pretty much the first paragraph of a letter I have been working on to go to a paper.
Dogs have the reputation as being loyal, loving creatures who cleave to their master, loving him without restraint. Cats are by nature more independant and capable, not very well but capable, of looking after themselves. Until people's perception of what a cat "is" changes then the bleak short life of a ton of cats will remain the same.
We need the laws to be changed to reflect the laws there now are for dogs: People need to be responsible for their cats. If a cat is roaming the owner gets fined. Cats need to be microchipped, s/n, on a leash when outside. Of course the stray problem is going to take forever to fix. But I truly believe in my heart that slowly, so very slowly, we are getting through to some people. I have to believe that.
It is wonderful to come home at night to a wagging tail that meets you at the door and gives you lots of sloppy kisses - the dog. In my opinion there is nothing, nada, that beats having a warm kitty body curled up on you purring away in pure contentment. All is right in the little one's world and she is letting you know it.
And now you know why I have soooooo many........

CearaQC
October 2nd, 2009, 12:48 PM
Well I have two cats and two dogs.

I wouldn't take my cats anywhere because I know how it will be for them. They will be so stressed out and not have a good time at all. They don't like being away from home and especially dislike being in a vehicle. I wouldn't haul my cats around for my own enjoyment. I would think of their well being first.

I can just imagine lots of cat people in a church with kitty carriers and all the kitties meowing and howling. Other kitties may come out of the carriers and the second a stranger tries to pet kitty, it will freak out and scratch the heck out of its owner and run and hide. Or worse, run out the door. How fun would that be? (The Anglican churches here, on very nice days, keep the doors wide open.)

While I will admit there are very social kitties that love being around new people and visiting new places, most cats aren't really known for being happy-go-lucky like most dogs.

And as anyone with cats know, it's really really hard to get them to sit/down/stay. Cats look at you like, "how dare you order me."

TwinTails
October 2nd, 2009, 12:54 PM
I've tried to get my cats used to the harness (no problem) and leash (okie dokie), but open that front door and I'm wrestling a lion :eek::eek: My kids just don't want anything to do with life outside of that door :rolleyes: However, if I ever had a cat that would be interested in the outdoors and being walked, then I would certainly want them to be welcome wherever dogs were :)

I find it funny that people think cats are so independant and don't need us as much as a dog does...I look at all of my kids and wonder what they would do if I weren't around. They'd starve, go cold, and be crying all the time (they all cry outside our bedroom door at night, they hate being alone!).

sugarcatmom
October 2nd, 2009, 01:45 PM
I just wish there was more attention paid to cat issues.


You might be interested in learning about the Catalyst Council (http://www.catalystcouncil.org/faq/), which is a non-profit organization advocating for cats and trying to improve awareness about cat care, in everything from the veterinary community to shelters, governments, and the media. One of the sad things in all of this is that people generally tend to spend much less money on their cats than they do on dogs, despite the fact that cats outnumber dogs as pets by about 10 million in the US. One of the Catalyst Council's biggest issues and something they're trying to change is that cats go to the vet 60% less than dogs.

So ya, cats definitely get the short end of the stick on many levels.

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 02:58 PM
Onster, CearaQC, I'm with you on not stressing a cat out by taking them somewhere. I know mine would not do well in a situation where there are a lot of strangers. But, it's the fact we really don't have the option for our cats.

I guess it's like having someone not invite you to a party, even if you weren't planning on going, it's nice to have the invite and be though of.

Does that make sense?

14+, sounds like that's going to be a very good article!

SCM, I'm going to have a look at that link, thanks!

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 03:15 PM
I think the main reason that people focus on dogs is simply because dogs have the ability to love and trust pretty much anyone in any environment unconditionally. No questions asked. They adapt to new situations MUCH more quickly than a cat would, and it is that simple. I can't imagine bringing my oldest cat out of the house - she would have a nervous breakdown, and I would probably lose a lot of blood in the process. :rolleyes:

Cats are so much more sensitive to new situations, even if a particular cat isn't 'fearful'. Specifically referring to the pet hotel, cats are generally 'okay' if left at home for short periods of time alone while the owners are on vacation as long as someone is able to regularly check on them, change the litterbox, and feed them.

Dogs? Not so much. They're far less independent and rely on their humans for pretty much all of their entertainment, washroom needs, etc. The market for dogs is higher in this area simply because dogs are much needier than cats are. I don't really view it as people in this business believing that cats are a less important, but the fact is - when dog owners go away, they NEED someone to take over the 24/7 care of their dog.

lUvMyLaB<3
October 2nd, 2009, 04:08 PM
but the point is... like AG said, to have the invitation instead of being the kid left out. I have always had cats, everyday of my life I have had a cat... I cannot imagine life without them, I truly think every little girl should have a cat, to sleep with, to cuddle, to cry into their fur..

I agree that people treat dogs and cats different, and I hate it, people talk a lot about dogs needing rescued and when they are put down ect.. but the average person doesn't bat an eye when they hear the number of cats killed every year... They will cry about the dog, but think a stray or unwanted cat is just vermin. Of someone set up traps and trapped dogs and left them in a sweltering trap with no water or food, many would be concerned, but yet no one cares when it happens daily to cats...

All animals are important and I will never know true happiness until animals are treated like they should be. Not used, abused and dominated, just because we can, because they are animals, not important, I cry thinking about it. I will sacrifice anything to save as many cats as I can, it isn't enough.. There NEEDS to be laws for cats, this whocaresabouthowmanyarebredandsold then clean up the mess AFTER is NOT working, when any city looks at the stats of the cats they kill how can they think it is a good plan, something is obviously very wrong. Owning a cat that is not fixed should be a crime, very few permits could be issued beginning a couple years later after a long, tedious process, cat for sale tga ads would be against the law..

anyway that turned into a long ramble with a lot of gobbly gook,... sorry!! I am so passionate about this it even scares me sometimes, I know many of you understand!

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 04:25 PM
I understand what you're saying LML. And I agree with you as far as the 'invitation would be nice'. Unfortuantley society today focuses on dogs BECAUSE it is more natural for a dog owner to bring their dog outside of the home, compared to the number of cat owners that do this. Aside from vet or grooming visits, most cats don't venture out of the home. This is due to the natural instinct of the cat, and not that owners wouldn't WANT to bring them out if they knew their cat could handle it.

I understand the main point that AG is saying and I agree. I guess my point is that I can see why it happens; and I don't believe it's because the majority of people view cats as the 'lesser' of our beloved pets - but the fact that dogs are more adaptable. Business owners focus on this, because it's a reality.

I agree that people treat dogs and cats different, and I hate it, people talk a lot about dogs needing rescued and when they are put down ect.. but the average person doesn't bat an eye when they hear the number of cats killed every year... They will cry about the dog, but think a stray or unwanted cat is just vermin. Of someone set up traps and trapped dogs and left them in a sweltering trap with no water or food, many would be concerned, but yet no one cares when it happens daily to cats...


Hmmm. Not sure I agree with the thought that dogs and cats are treated differently. They are completley different species, requiring different needs. They adapt very differently in situations. I don't think it's fair to say that dogs are more important to society than cats by any means! Maybe it's just my own experience, I run into people all the time that don't like dogs - that cringe and move to the side when I approach with my dogs - that tell me they love cats, prefer cats, and don't know how I own and work with dogs. I also run into people that don't like cats. It's a two way street, due to personal preference - but I would never go so far as to say that "people" in general treat one species different than another.

Dogs can be abused, as are cats. Both are overbred.

Stray dogs AND cats are the responsibility of their owners. If they are better off being caught and brought to a rescue or a shelter, rather than run the risk of posioning - being hit by a car - mauled by a dog - or becoming pregnant due to irresponsible people not s/n their animal - then I would WANT that animal to be taken in. :shrug:

chico2
October 2nd, 2009, 04:27 PM
I honestly do not believe cats are more independant than dogs,it all depends on the owners.
Do they look at a loving cat as a piece of the furniture or a familymember?
I just look at Tux my stray and every night when I see him eat,I am close to tears,he is someones garbage,I so wish I could show him some loving.
Many dogs are dumped and abandoned too,many of them too old or sick for anyone to adopt them,if they make it to a shelter:sad:

I believe,as my cats have shown me,given enough time and love can learn many things a dog can.
They are definitely not independant,they cling to us like glue...I also would never leave them alone,with someone coming in just to feed them if we go away.
They need companionship and love,just as much as any pup..

There should definitely be some kind of law to protect cats,s/n mandatory,regular vet-care,no mutilation(declaw),but that will never happen:sad:

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 04:45 PM
I honestly do not believe cats are more independant than dogs,it all depends on the owners.
Do they look at a loving cat as a piece of the furniture or a familymember?
I just look at Tux my stray and every night when I see him eat,I am close to tears,he is someones garbage,I so wish I could show him some loving.
Many dogs are dumped and abandoned too,many of them too old or sick for anyone to adopt them,if they make it to a shelter:sad:

I believe,as my cats have shown me,given enough time and love can learn many things a dog can.
They are definitely not independant,they cling to us like glue...I also would never leave them alone,with someone coming in just to feed them if we go away.
They need companionship and love,just as much as any pup..

There should definitely be some kind of law to protect cats,s/n mandatory,regular vet-care,no mutilation(declaw),but that will never happen:sad:

Chico, sorry to hear about your Tux. That is sad, and must be hard to watch. I'm glad he's found you!

I also agree that the owners can build an animal up, or damage it greatly - be it dog OR cat.

I also wouldn't leave my cats alone if I go away - we always have a trusted house-sitter stay here to watch the cats and the dogs. My point though is that a cat would be able to look after itself to an extent that a dog never would. Not to mention that people let their cats outside on their own (and would not do the same with their dogs) for a reason - whether or not we agree with this. Does this make sense?:confused:

It's the nature of the cat to be more solitary. Dogs are a more social creature. I'm not arguing the fact that cats can't learn tricks or don't bond with their humans - absolutley they do.

lUvMyLaB<3
October 2nd, 2009, 05:13 PM
nope I disagree with you. Yes sure there are people that don't like dogs, I just feel that dogs are given a bit higher status in life... Perhaps the life i have led has allowed me to see it from a different perspective, but i know many that don't bat an eye when a litty er of kittens is drowned, or given to someone for snake food, but people would react if that were a litter of puppies.. These things happen to cats all the time... I have seen it, and worse many many times....

my vet has had many cats left when there are medical bills, and been asked to put cats to sleep because they are not wanted, ect.. rarely for a dog..

Also the fact that any dog no matter what the breed mix has value and people will pay, usually a lot for it, people are SHOCKED if they see a regular run of the mill cat for sale for money in a classified ad...the fact that cats do NOT have value is the reason rescue is so tough.. anyone can get a cute baby cat for free in about 5 minutes any colour you want, not so with a pup.

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 05:21 PM
Also the fact that any dog no matter what the breed mix has value and people will pay, usually a lot for it, people are SHOCKED if they see a regular run of the mill cat for sale for money in a classified ad...the fact that cats do NOT have value is the reason rescue is so tough.. anyone can get a cute baby cat for free in about 5 minutes any colour you want, not so with a pup.

Yes, I agree with you on this point. Most puppies will at LEAST sell for $250 from puppy mills and BYB's, while kittens go for free or at most $50.

my vet has had many cats left when there are medical bills, and been asked to put cats to sleep because they are not wanted, ect.. rarely for a dog..


Hmm. You should never come to my city if this is the case - you would be appalled at the number of dogs that are also put to sleep in our shelters.

:offtopic: I recently adopted a kitten that was abandoned because of medical bills, but our rescue ALSO just aquired two adult dogs last month because of the same reason. I don't think cats are at a greater disadvantage when it comes to being abandoned compared to dogs, at least not from what I have seen.

It sucks whether it has happened to a dog or a cat - the numbers are too high for both. Whether they have pointy ears or a long snout, makes no difference to me. It's all wrong, it happens too often, and the fate for these animals is generally the same when they're not adopted or are not sent to reputable rescues. :sad:

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 05:55 PM
It's the nature of the cat to be more solitary. Dogs are a more social creature. I'm not arguing the fact that cats can't learn tricks or don't bond with their humans - absolutley they do.

Bailey, I have to disagree with you here my friend. Cats are actually quite social. Oksana may not like to socialize much with the others, but she loves just being anywhere I'm at. She'll follow me from room to room whenever I'm home. Even Czari, who was an outside cat for 3 years used to hang around in her little group now and then.

aslan
October 2nd, 2009, 05:58 PM
i have to disagree with you Bailey..the number of cats in shelters way outnumbers the amount of dogs. People think twice about just pitching their dog out the door to roam free, but the poor kitty, plop out it goes. I do believe that we as humans do treat one animal differantly over another. for whatever reason.

I as a former kitty owner would never have thought to take my cats out with me, but i can totally understand the logic behind the invite would be nice. I find that people today don't see discrimination unless they have lived it first hand a majority of the time.

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 06:26 PM
Bailey, I have to disagree with you here my friend. Cats are actually quite social. Oksana may not like to socialize much with the others, but she loves just being anywhere I'm at. She'll follow me from room to room whenever I'm home. Even Czari, who was an outside cat for 3 years used to hang around in her little group now and then.

:) Yep AG, I agree they are social. Sorry, I feel like I'm not making myself clear when I'm talking about cats vs dogs, I don't want to make a case AGAINST cats by any means. :thumbs up
Cats certainly have personalities, just like any other animal. Owning three, I can say from experience that they certainly are quite bonded to my family, love to be in the same room as us, etc. But I can't agree on the fact that they are the same as dogs in the dependence area. Cats do much better on their own than a dog ever would, and this is why I bring this up in regards to *why* dog owners are more dependent on 'hotel businesses' and 'dog walkers', etc and why these careers tend to focus on those with dogs.
Just my :2cents:. :)

i have to disagree with you Bailey..the number of cats in shelters way outnumbers the amount of dogs. People think twice about just pitching their dog out the door to roam free, but the poor kitty, plop out it goes. I do believe that we as humans do treat one animal differantly over another. for whatever reason.


No worries Aslan, I can see why you say this. It is sad that there are such high numbers for our beloved pets in shelters, and while I personally see in my city a high number of BOTH - I can see why many cats end up in them. Again, I believe this all initiates with irresponsible pet owners, :sad: but I digress.

Chris21711
October 2nd, 2009, 06:36 PM
Bailey, in your city they must be doing something really effective to control the cat population. I live not far north of Toronto.... Our local SPCA takes in 10 times more cats than dogs. At the present time they have 400 cats. They never go a day without taking in cats...It is heartbreaking :sad:

:sorry: to hi-jack AG

CearaQC
October 2nd, 2009, 07:27 PM
I guess it's like having someone not invite you to a party, even if you weren't planning on going, it's nice to have the invite and be though of.

Does that make sense?


Sure does! I never thought of it that way before.

But there was a time when I did not have dogs and only had cats. Grew up with cats and never dogs. And honestly, I was envious because I didn't have a canine to go places with me, or go for walks, etc.

I love my kitties and their purring. But I just can't imagine life without my dogs now. They each have their purpose. Dogs for really active stuff and cats for snuggling. But then again dogs can snuggle too.

My computer chair is really a recliner. And most evenings I can't even type - only browse - because I have both a cat AND a dog sitting in the chair with me.

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 07:47 PM
Bailey, in your city they must be doing something really effective to control the cat population. I live not far north of Toronto.... Our local SPCA takes in 10 times more cats than dogs. At the present time they have 400 cats. They never go a day without taking in cats...It is heartbreaking :sad:

:sorry: to hi-jack AG

:offtopic: It IS sad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive in any way to the number of animals rescued and rehomed in Alberta or Canada, and I don't disagree that the percentage of cats in shelters and rescues are higher than that of dogs.
I'm just saying that there are ALSO too many dogs abandoned/rescued, just as there are too many cats. In Calgary we actually have a rescue that is only for cats - the MEOW Foundation. It's a wonderful organization and they're able to rehome many of them. :thumbs up

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 07:49 PM
But there was a time when I did not have dogs and only had cats. Grew up with cats and never dogs. And honestly, I was envious because I didn't have a canine to go places with me, or go for walks, etc.

I love my kitties and their purring. But I just can't imagine life without my dogs now. They each have their purpose. Dogs for really active stuff and cats for snuggling. But then again dogs can snuggle too.



I feel the same way. I adore my gang, I mean, I just can't imagine my life without them and I love them more than words can express. But, I'd love to have a dog that I could do active stuff with too. Go on walks for instance, and even taking them on an errand or two.

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 07:54 PM
I feel the same way. I adore my gang, I mean, I just can't imagine my life without them and I love them more than words can express. But, I'd love to have a dog that I could do active stuff with too. Go on walks for instance, and even taking them on an errand or two.

:D Have you ever seen one of those kitty strollers? SOOOO CUTE.

ancientgirl
October 2nd, 2009, 07:58 PM
I have, and I've been waiting to buy one. Waiting for A. to have the money, since they are a little pricey, and B. for the weather to cool a bit. I've seen them on ebay at some good prices. I'm thinking at the very least one or two of them would like taking a stroll. With 5 cats, chances are I'll get at least one who likes to travel right?

lUvMyLaB<3
October 2nd, 2009, 08:34 PM
i sooo need one! My daughter would be taking tickles EVERYWHERE and tickles would be game! She is one of those humans stuck in a cat body, i am sure many of you know what i mean, those few that have something extra? We took her to the 'cat show' at the fair and all the other cats were scared stiff and she was happy, chowing down on the free can of crap canned food having a great time! It was when we were fostering her and her sister. They both got a ribbon for best house pet!

14+kitties
October 2nd, 2009, 09:35 PM
Aside from vet or grooming visits, most cats don't venture out of the home.

I have to disagree with this statement. If you are looking at the fortunate few who have found good homes where they are kept indoors 100% of the time then it's true. But how many of those cats that have been adopted get put outside at least part time? How many times do we hear about cats being killed by cars, being killed by dogs, being killed by people who just plain don't like cats?
Unfortunately most cats don't have the luxury of living inside a home. A large majority of them live in barns, in fields, bushes, streets, shelters (for a short time), in abandoned cars, anywhere they can find to hide where they may be safe for a few minutes. How many cats actually get to live out their natural life time? Most cats are "lucky" if they live to be 6 or 7 years old. Or are they lucky? Having to scrounge for food, having to feed at least two litters a year if they are female, having to find what scant shelter they can. I don't know. Maybe a shelter and a short life is preferable to those cats. At least their suffering ends.

Some chilling stats I have posted before for this area......
Of the dogs turned in 75% were claimed by their owners. An additional 22% were adopted.
Out of 7900 cats turned in last year 120 were returned to their families. 1700 more were adopted. Do I need tell you what happened to the rest?

On Friday, October 9th at 8pm there will be a documentary on Global call CAT CITY National Prime Time Broadcast Premiere! It is about the stray cat problem in Toronto. It's estimated that at any given time there are 100,000 stray cats roaming the streets. One of the rescues mentioned on the show is the one I work with to get my kitties s/n.

There is a trailer to this broadcast here...... But let me warn you before you watch it, it shows a cat being euthanized. Not the face, just the body. I couldn't get past that without tears flowing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9x1sOzaYU0#

So is there equality between dogs and cats? Not bloody likely. Are we ever going to see equality? Not until people stand up and start taking responsibility for the mess they have created.

On more thing.. if it is the nature of the cat to be solitary why do they form colonies?

Bailey_
October 2nd, 2009, 10:49 PM
14+, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

In fact, I think you misunderstood my statement entirely and I can see why - I wasn't clear with my wording. I was referring to the fact that cat owners generally don't take their cats outside in the same manner that dog owners do - for walks, or to the local petstore, or for drives around the neighborhood just because, or to picnics at a nearby park. I for one, rarely see 'cats' around town with their owners - but always will see dogs. To keep in line with this thread, that was my point about WHY some business owners direct their attention to dogs. I don't at all believe that it's because people feel cats are unworthy of the lavishing, not at all. It's just the simple fact that responsible cat owners, generally tend to keep their cats at home on their property. I was not referring to the cats that are allowed to roam and venture 'outside' in this dangerous manner. And I'm not saying it isn't right NOT to include cat owners in advertisements - obviously they're doing themselves a disservice. Hopefully that clears up my train of thought.

So is there equality between dogs and cats? Not bloody likely. Are we ever going to see equality? Not until people stand up and start taking responsibility for the mess they have created.

I agree. But just to clarify, I also never said that there was equality, but rather there are simply also a lot of dogs that are in the exact same positions as our cats in shelters all over the world. Thanks for posting that link, but respectfully I can't watch it. I've been wittness to euthanasia far too many times for my liking, and certainly understand the seriousness of what happens to animals in shelters.

On more thing.. if it is the nature of the cat to be solitary why do they form colonies?

If you're referring to feral cats - yes, I have heard about colonies, but from what I have been told - they generally form very LOOSE colonies (correct me if I am wrong), and usually only if there is enough food available in the area. Otherwise - adios amigos.
Adult cats will also hunt by themselves - and usually don't share their food with other adult cats. Very different from the dog that will stay with the pack and thrive on this interaction & support.

All in all, I agree with what you're saying 14+, and as I've said before - I'm absolutley NOT making a case against cats.... I know the statistics, and they are heartbreaking.

My initial comments are coming out of a place of understanding why society focuses more on the dog when it comes to business planning, compared to cats. That is all. :thumbs up

14+kitties
October 3rd, 2009, 06:57 AM
To keep in line with this thread, that was my point about WHY some business owners direct their attention to dogs.

I guess I threadjacked waaayy off topic. Tend to do that when it comes to cats. :rolleyes:

Thanks for posting that link, but respectfully I can't watch it. I've been wittness to euthanasia far too many times for my liking, and certainly understand the seriousness of what happens to animals in shelters.

I wasn't posting the link so you could see the cat being pts. :sad: I was posting it in case anyone is interested in watching the show. It will prove to be a very interesting documentary.


If you're referring to feral cats - yes, I have heard about colonies, but from what I have been told - they generally form very LOOSE colonies (correct me if I am wrong), and usually only if there is enough food available in the area. Otherwise - adios amigos.
Adult cats will also hunt by themselves - and usually don't share their food with other adult cats. Very different from the dog that will stay with the pack and thrive on this interaction & support.

All in all, I agree with what you're saying 14+, and as I've said before - I'm absolutley NOT making a case against cats.... I know the statistics, and they are heartbreaking.

My initial comments are coming out of a place of understanding why society focuses more on the dog when it comes to business planning, compared to cats. That is all. :thumbs up

Again, I suppose it depends on where you are from. The colonies around this area do not separate. They stay very close together. As for not sharing food - I have watched on numerous occassions Ajax bring back a mouse/bird/small rabbit to share with Ace. Or he will hunt just for Ace. My feral Storm brings me food all the time. She will meow to let me know she has brought me a gift, leave it at my feet and walk away. It is only after I have "admired" and thanked her for the gift and I walk away that she will come back for it.
There are many feral colonies in the TO area. A lot of stories have been written about people dropping off their unwanted cats in the same area of these colonies thinking the cats will take them in. That normally does not happen. It is then that the dumped cat will leave to try to find a new place. Maybe that is what you are hearing about. :shrug:
I have seen it with my own group. Some cats get accepted, others don't. That is why I have the separate enclosures to keep everyone safe and happy.

AG - I apologize for the threadjack. I suppose when it comes to cats I don't look at it from the business end of things. I look at it from the heart. :sad: But in reading your original statement I don't think I am that far off track for parts of it. I guess we all see what we want to see in a thread.

ancientgirl
October 3rd, 2009, 08:13 AM
14+, no worries. We have to think not only in business terms, but heartfelt terms too. So many people, some who own and don't own cats also think of cats as inferior.

Like I said, I'd love to have a dog to do stuff with outside my home. I know my gang would be stressed if I took them places. I'd love them to experience the outdoors, but safely. My biggest issue is just the way some people don't see cats as important as dogs. In the media, all you hear about are dog issues and see dog programs on tv. I'm fine with that, I watch lots of these shows, but be fair, give time to cats too. They have issues as well and need help just as much as dogs.

chico2
October 3rd, 2009, 08:48 AM
You all have a valid point and unlike 14+,I do not have much experience with cats who have been dumped or left to fend for themselves:sad:
I agree with everything she says,we all love animals,no matter what they are,we see the suffering where others turn a blind eye,the cat-overpopulation is an emergency:yell:

The many cat-owners who let their cats out to roam each night and maybe lets them in in the morning,how could they possibly get to know their cats..:shrug:to them I am sure cats are"independant"and if they don't come home one morning,they'll just get another cat...
There is a prime example across the street from me,they must have lost at least 4 cats in the past couple of years.
They have a beautiful little female,longhaired Tuxedo at the moment,in tact,having been pregnant several times.
The owner hands the kittens out to whoever wants them:yell:cheaper than taking her to a vet to be spayed.
What happens to most of those kittens when they grow up??
I think we all know,my Tux is a prime example:sad:

I don't think the suffering is any less for an abandoned abused dog,oh and I love dogs too,but the sheer number of homeless cats is horrific.
I would vote for any politician,no matter what party,if he would come up with a solution for these poor homeless kitties:pray:and I do not mean killing them.

lUvMyLaB<3
October 3rd, 2009, 09:00 AM
Yes AG :(

Here (rural area) cats are shot daily. .some were found dead on a road with one survivor shivering against what we assume was the mothers body, took a lot of work to get that kitten healthy, and it sat in rescue for 2 years. In the spring a shepherd pup was found injured, wow, there were newspaper stories, fundraisers, it raised more than enough to pay for the month at the U in sask, so many clamoring to take charlie Ava home. . .

I see these differences all the time, if pups were being shot daily we would hear about it. There are cats that live the good life, but sadly that is the minority. Even when they are lucky enough to get into rescue the time they sit there averages so much longer than dogs. If you foster cats you are told it is likely to stay years, or even forever. . . I see it. .

Bailey, your oldest cat of coarse would flip out, but also would an older dog that has never left the house. If someone worked at socializing their kitten, walked it 3 times a day, took it wherever they went in the car, it too would like it. . .they say dogs are mans BEST friend, and cats. .are. . .great mousers?

14+kitties
October 3rd, 2009, 11:10 AM
Here (rural area) cats are shot daily. .some were found dead on a road with one survivor shivering against what we assume was the mothers body, took a lot of work to get that kitten healthy, and it sat in rescue for 2 years. In the spring a shepherd pup was found injured, wow, there were newspaper stories, fundraisers, it raised more than enough to pay for the month at the U in sask, so many clamoring to take charlie Ava home. . .

Exactly. Now where is the equality in that? I am not talking taking cats out for "walkies" on their harness. That can be done easily if trained from an early age. Same as for a dog. I am talking bottom dollar numbers... they don't lie. Stray/feral/homeless cats far outnumber dogs. Period. You don't hear about bands of homeless dogs roaming looking for food. But you do cats. They are seen as "nuisances". Stray cats who get into people's garbage or gardens are the same.

I very recently had a customer in the store who told me his cat was pregnant and when the kittens were born he was putting them in a bag and attaching the bag to the exhaust of his car. Yesterday I had a lady telling me how bad she felt and how hard it was when she had to put her declawed cat down because it was biting her son who, she admitted, was not playing nice with it. :wall: I can go on with many many horror stories. They are endless.

Yes, I know they happen to dogs as well. I also know that there is a great hoopla raised when this kind of cruelty comes to light with a dog. It is normally a first page story in the paper with tons of offers coming in to adopt the dog.

I am off my soap box now. It's all been said before. Now it's time to try and help.

sugarcatmom
October 3rd, 2009, 11:26 AM
Stray/feral/homeless cats far outnumber dogs. Period.

And then some. Not sure what the stats are in Canada (probably similar), but in the U.S., the number of stray and feral cats rivals that of owned cats. To a tune of approximately 82 million. Staggering.

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 01:13 PM
Stray/feral/homeless cats far outnumber dogs. Period. You don't hear about bands of homeless dogs roaming looking for food. But you do cats. They are seen as "nuisances". Stray cats who get into people's garbage or gardens are the same.


I agree absolutley and it is very heartbreaking. But do you not agree that part of the problem lies with society and uneducated owners believing that cats are supposed to wander around outside, or that they are 'happier' roaming? Many of these 'strays' do come from homes where people have not ensured their responsibility to keep them on their property.

We have two 'stray' cats who belong to our neighbors that regularly come into our yards to soil, use our fence for scratching posts, kill our baby birds from our bird houses, instigate fights with our own pets, among other things. Regardless of whether this was a cat or a dog or a skunk coming into my yard and doing these things - I would be frustrated by it.
The fact that stray cats are seen as nuisances is because many times the owners are not following simple laws that ensure their pets stay on their property, first and foremost.
I feel extremly sorry for these animals, and want them to have better care. We are currently trying to get our two visitor cats into a rescue :fingerscr, if nothing else so they can have vet care (one has a missing eye..:sad:) as our neighbors continue to ignore our concerns.

Bailey, your oldest cat of coarse would flip out, but also would an older dog that has never left the house. If someone worked at socializing their kitten, walked it 3 times a day, took it wherever they went in the car, it too would like it. . .they say dogs are mans BEST friend, and cats. .are. . .great mousers?

:thumbs up Point taken LML. :)


***Apologies AG for continuing to threadjack

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 01:26 PM
I very recently had a customer in the store who told me his cat was pregnant and when the kittens were born he was putting them in a bag and attaching the bag to the exhaust of his car. Yesterday I had a lady telling me how bad she felt and how hard it was when she had to put her declawed cat down because it was biting her son who, she admitted, was not playing nice with it. I can go on with many many horror stories. They are endless.

Yes, I know they happen to dogs as well. I also know that there is a great hoopla raised when this kind of cruelty comes to light with a dog. It is normally a first page story in the paper with tons of offers coming in to adopt the dog.


Very sad story about the cat. Unfortunatley I have seen that too many times to count - often when the family brings the cat to the shelter and it can't find a new home.

This also happens quite often to dogs, but it could be something as simple as the dog needing surgery. Medical bills for dogs tend to be higher than that for cats, therefore you end up with people putting their dogs to sleep because of the expense. This, IMO, is equally as horrible.

Maybe it's just my area, but I also never see these kinds of stories advertised for people to read. Generally the ones concerning dogs are always the stories of a dog biting someone - the dog is not assessed and simply PTS. Those are the kind of stories I read about dogs in my paper. :shrug:

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
October 3rd, 2009, 01:47 PM
I agree; I really hate the disposable attitude towards cats :(

I really believe cats should be held at the same regard as dogs. Leash/licensing laws should be as strong for cats as well as for dogs, for their safety as well. I have seen way too many dead cats on the roads, and am too aware of the number of cats being euthanized in Animal Control :(

ancientgirl
October 3rd, 2009, 01:50 PM
14+ I, 's inconceivable to me that anyone would just willingly and just be so nonchalant about saying what they do to animals. Like it's something to brag and be proud about. What other things go on in he mind of a person like that?:frustrated:

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 01:52 PM
I really believe cats should be held at the same regard as dogs. Leash/licensing laws should be as strong for cats as well as for dogs, for their safety as well. I have seen way too many dead cats on the roads, and am too aware of the number of cats being euthanized in Animal Control :(

Totally! Horrible... :sad:

babymomma
October 3rd, 2009, 02:48 PM
The way I see it. If cats are welcomed into the church (For instance) how many irresponsible people are going to bring their terrified cats along just because they can now? How many of those terrified kitties will run away and get hit? .. Its a good Idea, In theory. But its not the ideal situation.

edit to add: I bet many people would start getting bags to stuff cats and kittens in just for an accesery. blahh

chico2
October 3rd, 2009, 04:07 PM
Babymomma,I think taking a cat to church was just an example,my cats would sing louder than the choir:laughing:and for that matter,you would not catch me in church any time soon:cat:

I wish someone with good writing-skills could get the media interested in the plight of homeless cats,K-K comes to mind and I know she is already writing for her local paper.
Other than educating people,what can we do??

lUvMyLaB<3
October 3rd, 2009, 04:50 PM
Oh dear! I don't know how people can speak of killing cats as easily as they speak of the weather.. One day a man brought a bag to my friend that owns the reptile gardens and said it was something to feed the snakes, thinking he was doing a nice favor for my friend. My friend opened it thinking it would be ckicken or dear meat, and it was 5 dead baby kittens...

I remember discussing calgary probably 3 or 4 years ago? They were trying to change things around and we were watching to see if we could get some tips, it was so out of balance there that they had thousands of cats pts in the pound, but only a few dogs, the numbers were wayyy out of wack, similar to here. Here dogs rarely if ever are pts at the pound, but hundreds of cats, that is a lot for a small place, and that does NOT include the ones the farmers rid of themselves and I am sure that number is in the thousands. I agree that there are issues with dogs, but the cats are a bigger issue, and in so much more trouble.

I don't care why people do this, the fact they do it is enough, as that post said dogs get vet care 60% more than cats! Shocking, but not surprising... Seeing how great the need for cats in trouble are is why I have devoted every single ounce of everything i have to do what ever i can to save what I can. I have fostered a lot of dogs over the years, pulled dogs out of the pound, re homed dogs, but I just feel the need for cats is greater, dogs can be homed so much faster, we have a BEAUTIFUL flame point himi, in foster here for 3 years... My tortie foster mr catopeous sir ( yes.. its a girl) has been here almost a year, and she was a year when she got here... Kittens do get taken though, but the fact will always be that more people will go get a free kitten than a $100 kitten, and when people have success with their classified ad to give away free kittens, they see no reason to not do it. If they were stuck with 7 kittens, and had to get help, maybe they would re think breeding..

I really think letting your cat breed should be against the law, it can be enforced because every ad you see can be tracked down, the animals removed and a huge fine.. i HATE this system the way it is, let there be [sycho numbers and clean them up.. AFTER... when will someone look at this and change it!?!?!?!?!?

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 05:37 PM
I really think letting your cat breed should be against the law, it can be enforced because every ad you see can be tracked down, the animals removed and a huge fine.. i HATE this system the way it is, let there be [sycho numbers and clean them up.. AFTER... when will someone look at this and change it!?!?!?!?!?


...I think that's what a lot of people in rescue and foster are trying to do. :)

With both cats and dogs, the system is overbred. It's a mess, and regardless of whether our focus is on cats or dogs or both - the issue is the same. Too many animals need homes, it's too heartbreaking, and I can only hope that our children will follow our lead and continue to protest breeding and encourage responsible pet ownership.

ancientgirl
October 3rd, 2009, 05:39 PM
Oh dear! I don't know how people can speak of killing cats as easily as they speak of the weather.. One day a man brought a bag to my friend that owns the reptile gardens and said it was something to feed the snakes, thinking he was doing a nice favor for my friend. My friend opened it thinking it would be ckicken or dear meat, and it was 5 dead baby kittens...


I don't even know what to say. I think if I were your friend, I'd make a mental note of that guy and never let him near my place of business. What kind of a person does this?

You know, I often think of how hard some people, be they owners or people who work at rescues, work to keep a dog from being pts, yet they don't really think twice about a cat.

There are dog trainers, and organizations who work to take dogs with behavior problems and train them so they can be adoptable. Do people like this even exist for cats?

People declaw their cats, then put them to sleep because suddenly they have behavior problems or problems with aggression.

A friend of mine who I recently got back in touch with came to Miami and she came over to my place. We talked for a while about my cats then she mentioned to me her mother had this kitten she kept in the bathroom most of the time, and that she at one point had to declaw the cat because she was killing her furniture. Then she took the cat off her mothers hands only to have the cat bite her son, who by the way, was trying to reach for the cat while it was hiding in the corner underneath his bed.

I listened to her and I told her she could have prevented all that aggression by not declawing the cat, and not keeping it in the bathroom all the time. I said declawing the cat made it aggressive because she took away it's only means of defense, and the cat bit her son because she felt cornered and had no defense. It's not rocket science, but hey, it's easier to just get of the cat, so why not?:sad:

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 05:46 PM
I hate to be the downer here, and I totally understand what you ladies are saying but I'm kind of uncomfortable reading this comment:

You know, I often think of how hard some people, be they owners or people who work at rescues, work to keep a dog from being pts, yet they don't really think twice about a cat.


Maybe this bothers me only because I know many wonderful people that put their time/effort/resources into rescuing BOTH - be it dog or cat, guinea pig or horse. There is no discrimination among the people I have met, and I'm sad that there seems to be this feeling of frustration towards anyone who would rescue a dog.

I really do think maybe my own experience in this scenario is making me have a very different light on this - obviously you have all experienced some very horrible judgements against cats, things that I haven't seen, and I hope never to.

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 05:49 PM
There are dog trainers, and organizations who work to take dogs with behavior problems and train them so they can be adoptable. Do people like this even exist for cats?

Have you thought about starting something like this in your area AG? With your experience and knowledge, you may just the person to begin a rehabilitation for cats.

ancientgirl
October 3rd, 2009, 06:00 PM
Maybe this bothers me only because I know many wonderful people that put their time/effort/resources into rescuing BOTH - be it dog or cat, guinea pig or horse. There is no discrimination among the people I have met, and I'm sad that there seems to be this feeling of frustration towards anyone who would rescue a dog.

I really do think maybe my own experience in this scenario is making me have a very different light on this - obviously you have all experienced some very horrible judgements against cats, things that I haven't seen, and I hope never to.

I have no frustration towards anyone who would rescue a dog. There are people here who rescue dogs, and those that rescue cats. I feel people here who rescue cats would go out of their way also to help a dog, and vice versa.

I was talking about many organizations that in general seem to think dogs are more able to be rehabilitated and adoptable, and cats are a lost case. Pedigree has campaigns about adopting dogs. I don't see Purina going on TV and saying they are having adopt a cat campaigns. Even 9 Lives doesn't seem to advertise their efforts for helping cats like they used to.

As for rehabilitating cats, Bailey, I can't tell you how much I'd love to do that. It's one of the many reasons I dream of buying a small home some day. I can't bring another cat into this apartment. It's not big enough for one more and I'm scared it would mess up the dynamic I've already got. I also can't afford it.

I'm working toward at some point getting a bigger place, one with at least an extra bedroom and a patio. If luck smiles on me, then you bet I'd take some cats in need of help and a couple of pups too.

Bailey_
October 3rd, 2009, 06:08 PM
Thanks for clearing that up AG, I must've just been reading it wrong.

What if you were to just put an ad up and instead of actually taking cats and rehabilitating them - just getting word around your city that YOU come to peoples homes and help them out. (When a new baby comes, if there's an impending move, if someone is noticing any behavioral changes, etc.) I think there certainly a need for this, and if you've got the ability, then you may be the perfect person for the job!!

What I can say about being a trainer, is that from experience, there is nothing more gratifying than knowing that you can step in and keep another animal from being displaced to a shelter or rehomed just because owners don't understand a certain behavior or how to deal with it. And you're right - I don't know many that would do this with cats, but I do believe that this is one of the reasons the cat ends up "outside" for the majority of the time.

ancientgirl
October 3rd, 2009, 06:19 PM
Actually going to someone's home would be easier, that may be something I could do.

14+kitties
October 3rd, 2009, 08:41 PM
I agree; I really hate the disposable attitude towards cats :(

I really believe cats should be held at the same regard as dogs. Leash/licensing laws should be as strong for cats as well as for dogs, for their safety as well. I have seen way too many dead cats on the roads, and am too aware of the number of cats being euthanized in Animal Control :(

Unfortunately until people get rid of the "farmer's attitude" that cats are disposable mouse catchers the laws are never going to change. Recently one of the towns near us tried to implement a leash law/fine/# of cats per household. There was such a hue and cry about the whole thing they gave up. I *think* they also realized there was no way they could fine people for the strays that wander the streets as no one was willing to step forward to claim these cats. Oh, that's not my cat! has got to stop! Especially when neighbours know the cat belongs to you! :frustrated:

If I remember correctly they wanted to put a cap of 3 cats per household and 10 cats per farm into law. While wonderful numbers to one day think about until the HUGE problem of feral/stray cats in this area has been solved (through s/n preferably) there is no possible way it is realistic.

It would be a marvelous thing if the government would put aside some monies they are currently wasting on their free dinners, flights, etc and use it to hire HSs to trap/neuter/release stray cats. Yes, it would take a while. Yes, it would require vets willing to do the surgeries for a greatly reduced price. Yes, it would require meticulous record keeping so areas already done were not done again, Yes, it would require micro chipping and/or ear tipping to identify cats already done. Yes, I do believe it is possible. It is my hope for the future and one of the reasons I keep on t/n/r on my own dime.

As for the lots of people who are currently helping out cats........ we need lots more. I know of a woman who ran a rescue in this area for about 2 years. She ended up being so burnt out she just one day gave it up. Now... she's breeding dogs. So a woman who was once being very productive and was being part of the solution is now part of the problem.

Bailey_
October 4th, 2009, 12:00 AM
Actually going to someone's home would be easier, that may be something I could do.

:D:thumbs up Think about it AG!! That would be awesome!

chico2
October 4th, 2009, 07:58 AM
14+,you are absolutely right T/N/R is the only solution,but probably is not going to happen any time soon:sad:
If there was a bi-law,I would be the first one to pick up the phone and report the ignorant woman across the street:evil:

BenMax
October 4th, 2009, 12:09 PM
I personally feel that cats are left out of everything. There is alot of adoption day outside the shelters or rescues for dogs but not for cats. There is more emphasis made on saving dogs but sadly again not cats. There are rescues here specifically for dogs only which I think is very sad really. This has forced more cat rescues to emerge since there is even a GREATER requirement to save cats. I am fortunate to be with an animal rescue....that means dogs, cats and the odd bird, feret etc. I can distinctly remember an owner who wanted to surrender their dog. Once the president was there she also saw a cat. She asked about the fate of the cat and the woman said the kitty was going to the local animal control. We absolutely would not leave there without the cat if we were taking the dog. So we did and I am very pleased to say that the cat is at my best friends home (foster failure :D), and lives high on the hog!

For whatever reason, cats are not given the same chances as the dogs. It seems almost 'normal' to 'understand' why so many are killed in a year. This is my opinion is unacceptable!

I would love to be able to bring my cats with me wherever I go but that is impossible. Only 1 out of 5 would be game....and then there will be people who would use the old allergy to prevent me from taking her with me.

In my opinion, all animals have the same value as being an important part of our being. I cannot understand preference frankly. Anything that breaths is equally important....including spiders, ants etc (ok I am a nut!):laughing:

14+kitties
October 4th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Ok BM, I agreed whole heartedly with everything you said up until you said spiders. :yuck: :D
It is too true that we have become too complacent in accepting that so many cats have to die. :D

BenMax
October 4th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Ok BM, I agreed whole heartedly with everything you said up until you said spiders. :yuck: :D
It is too true that we have become too complacent in accepting that so many cats have to die. :D

I kind of figured that the spider thing would not go over very well, but I do try to save them and not flush them. I am facinated on how they work, what they do and how they do it..it is quite facinating.

I do not think that we should ignore the very grave situation this nation is in in regards to the cat over population. It sickens me to be aware of how many people think that cats are independant and can fend for themselves. The true fact is that they cannot. They need us just as much to speak up for them as do our dogs.

ancientgirl
October 4th, 2009, 12:22 PM
BM, you are so right. Why is a dog given more of an opportunity for life and not a cat. They should both be given an equal chance.

14+kitties
October 4th, 2009, 12:25 PM
And one by one we are slowly making a difference. It's the only thing that keeps us going.

chico2
October 4th, 2009, 04:19 PM
In my opinion, all animals have the same value as being an important part of our being. I cannot understand preference frankly. Anything that breaths is equally important....including spiders, ants etc (ok I am a nut!):laughing:[/QUOTE]

BM.Then I too am a"nut"(have been called worse:laughing:),who am I to decide a spider does not deserve to live,or a mouse or whatever..they are all living beings,now some humans,I would not mind squishing..

friend2animals
October 4th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Dogs are typically and historically known to accompany their master(male/female) on outdoor, social activities. They are better equipped to manage and process this sort of social activity (mentally). Cats are not. Even though cats are clever, and can be trained and socialized, I'm not sure any amount of training - especially outdoor training would tailor a cats pre- historic instinct for "running for cover." Especially in the presence of dogs.

I actually don't think cats are considered second class citizens. My experience has taught me that many, many people prefer the company of cats to dogs, regardless of breed. In this situation, it sounds as though it's a matter of cultural "norms." Not bias against cats, specifically. :)

NB: Having been a mom to a cat for so many years, I understand your feelings about this, and there have been so many times where I would have loved to have brought my cat along with me! It never really worked out. As Bailey mentioned, they tend to "freak out" when uprooted from the stability of their home nest.

Maybe, you could bring your cat with you (in his/her kennel carrier), and leave him/her in the car while you are in church. This might bridge part of the gap...At least your furbaby would be close by:shrug:
Or maybe you could find other cat owners who feel the same way as you, and launch a friendly campaign and initiative that will help introduce cats into mainstream, social activities, outside the cats' typical domain.:shrug:

:grouphug:

Frenchy
October 4th, 2009, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry but the thought of bringing an animal to a church is totally ridiculous to me. Dogs or cats. Try to imagine , one dog starts barking ... then another .... etc .... then cats goes all crazy because dogs are barking .... priest is talking and no one can hear him. I'm all for special days where priests bless the animals but that's about it.

and I do believe that , dogs are dogs and cats are cats. Nobody can tell me that they have the same relationship with their dogs and cats. It's all very different. And I'm not saying that I don't like my cats as much as I do my dogs , not at all. But my cats don't sit , give paws , bark , go get their toys on command like my dogs do. My cats don't feel the need to follow me everywhere as the dogs do. My cats would certainly not be happy if I decided I would bring them everywhere with me , for a walk , to a friend's place , to a park ....

14+kitties
October 4th, 2009, 05:24 PM
friend2animals...... I truly do not believe this whole thread is about "taking your cat to church". I think it is about the inequality of cats as compared to dogs. AG mentioned how often the adoption show she watches has dogs on but not cats. I also don't think it's about uprooting cats from the stability of their home nest. And may I point out I have also seen many dogs who freak out when taken from the stability of their home. I don't think this thread is about introducing cats into the mainstream by having get togethers with others who think like "us". That would be asinine. However, I would be quite willing to sit with people who "think like me" and talk. There would be a whole lot more s/n cats in this world, believe me!!!

And I certainly do not think this thread is about taking your cat to church and leaving it sitting in your car while you are in church just so you can "feel closer to it". Would you advocate someone taking their dog to church with them and leaving it sitting in the car? Please.
Could you please explain what you consider to be a cats' typical domain? That has me confused.

Frenchy
October 4th, 2009, 05:32 PM
friend2animals...... I truly do not believe this whole thread is about "taking your cat to church".

you're right 14+ , I was also off topic :o

I don't believe rescue wise , that cats are less than dogs. If you look at petfinder , there's a lot more cats up for adoption , then dogs , rescues are taking the more cats they can , but there's so many. I also know of a rescue that has cat adoption days almost every week end , in Verdun.

Love4himies
October 4th, 2009, 05:36 PM
:laughing::laughing: What a mental vision :laughing:.


My Snowball was like a dog. I started walking him as a tiny kitten on a leash. I was able to take him anywhere and walk him like a dog, even to provinical parks on the trails, and throughout our subdivision.

He would wait at the front window for me to come home from work. When he saw my car come into the driveway, he would run the door to greet me.

If I was sick in bed, he was with me. If I was upset, he was at my side.

He followed me everywhere, there was only a few nights in his whole life that he didn't sleep with me, otherwise he was at my shoulder on the edge of the bed, even his last night with me, he climbed up the bed to sleep with me :cry:. I don't think even a dog would be more loyal than my Snowball.

He may not be a typical cat, but if cat owners started socializing cats at 6 weeks old, like I did, they may become more like dogs, who knows :shrug:

14+kitties
October 4th, 2009, 05:58 PM
you're right 14+ , I was also off topic :o

I don't believe rescue wise , that cats are less than dogs. If you look at petfinder , there's a lot more cats up for adoption , then dogs , rescues are taking the more cats they can , but there's so many. I also know of a rescue that has cat adoption days almost every week end , in Verdun.

Quite all right Frenchy.
The biggest problem is that there are so many more cats than dogs. At least in my area. Almost daily you see or hear of dead cats on the side of the road. You very seldom hear that with dogs.
I love my dogs as much as I love my cats. I think everyone here knows that. I would not trade one for the world. It doesn't matter that Keesha pees on the floor daily, three or four times a day. She is 15. I almost expect it. When she goes we will be devestated. The same for Sammydog. She is my shadow outside when Stormy isn't too close. Of course she is mostly my shadow cause she's hoping I have food but still........ :D
One of the rescues I have been working with also has a cat mobile that they take out every weekend. It is filled with cats up for adoption. This year the adoption numbers are way down. But owner surrenders are way up. :sad:
We need to find a way to educate people about s/n their cats, keeping them inside where they belong, and vaccinating to stop the spread of some diseases.

quincymycat
October 4th, 2009, 05:59 PM
OK, I admit I jumped to the end of the thread without reading completely every post, but I had someting happen to me a few years ago that really shot home the attiiude of some people between cats and dogs.
I have always had cats...the day after I got married, a kitten came into our home and 38 years later there has still always been kitties in my home. This is not saying anything against dogs, I love all animals, it is just a matter of choice for me and what fit my personality better.
A few years ago, I had a fairly good "friend" who had dogs, the way I had cats. During this "friendship" I had to put down one of my beloved cats after a serious illness. Instead of offering me support her words to me were "I don't know why you are so upset. It's not like it was a dog". It has been many years and these words still cut me. What makes it worse, is this attitude has been put out there by many others.
There are "kitty mills" out there too. My ragdoll came from one and he has had so many health problems it is a wonder he is still alive, more a wonder that he survived the first 4 weeks of his lfe. I took him home when he was 4 weeks old and barely a pound in weight - why? because his "breeder" wanted to get the kittens out so she could go on vacation with her family. I bought this kttten to save it's life. I came upon it by accident, I was not looking to support the mill. I am not stupid nor naive. I knew what I was dealing with and reporting her to the local SPCA did nothing.
Thankfully, there are breeders out there who have no problem saying "no" to someone they do not feel is going to provide a good home to the kittens they produce. My breeder for my Maine Coons (the first "purebreed" cats I have ever owned) requires you to qualify and then you wait because she does not have litters always available. You agree to give the cat back if you cannot keep it as well. We still communicate with each other and I feel proud that she is able to tell you where everyone of her kittens are at any time.
Sorry to go off, but I have never seen a loose dog in my neighborhood, but I feed many wandering kitties who visit on a regular basis.:shrug:

luckypenny
October 4th, 2009, 06:45 PM
You know, I often think of how hard some people, be they owners or people who work at rescues, work to keep a dog from being pts, yet they don't really think twice about a cat.

I was talking about many organizations that in general seem to think dogs are more able to be rehabilitated and adoptable, and cats are a lost case.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. Rescues/shelters don't think twice about cats :confused:?

There are dog trainers, and organizations who work to take dogs with behavior problems and train them so they can be adoptable. Do people like this even exist for cats?

The cat rescues I know that use foster homes work with problem cats. What kind of behavior problems are you talking about? I have yet to meet a responsible dog rescue who would take on an extremely aggressive dog :shrug:. The means simply aren't available not to mention the legal ramifications if anyone was ever injured.

I don't have cats because of my allergies. If I didn't have allergies, I still couldn't have cats because I have a dog who would kill them. That doesn't mean I value dogs over cats. And just about every good dog owner (either only dogs or cats and dogs) I know feels the same way.

As for the Church thing....I won't be taking my dogs because it would be too stressful for them...but I would make the 6 hour drive if my mother's parish did the same. "Look Ma! Not only in my house, and in my bed, but in Church too :D."

chico2
October 5th, 2009, 09:16 AM
Whether dogs or cats,they all need love and care,we need to listen and learn their language,yes,even cats can speak to you,if you give them the time of day.
People who have cats,who let them out at night,maybe let them in in the morning to eat and sleep(if they are lucky)how could they possibly know what a cat is capable of.

Like L4H's Snowball,my Rocky always is where I am,he gets upset if I cough,has an uncanny way of knowing when I feel down:lovestruck:
All three of my cats come running when called,if we are gone for a couple of hours,they all sit at the top of the stairs with a"where the heck have you been"look.

Of course there are differences between cats/dogs,I love dogs,hate to see any neglected,that's why we have been walking Bailey for 3+years,unfortunately she does not know what a toy is about,she only cares about food.
Fate(white Husky)next door is also neglected,spends her days alone in the backyard although the owners certainly "love" her,not all dogs are loved and cared for,as we all know..
Yesterday we were visiting some friends,their daughter and grand-daughter has moved in with them.
They had a dog and 2 10yr old declawed cats,guess which animal got dumped???
One cat died before the move,of untreated kidney-failure:sad:the other is in a shelter and these people "love"animals,I was fuming and told them so...all in all not a nice visit:yell:
Some people love animals when it is convenient be it dogs or cats.

Better news,the"other"kitty was picked up by an in-law!!

kandy
October 5th, 2009, 05:14 PM
I would agree that there are a ton more things that are advertised for dogs than cats. You generally don't see ads with kitties on leashes playing ball in the park.

But I have to disagree that this is somehow the result of people thinking that dogs have value and cats don't. The whole pet industry has seen a tremendous increase over the last 2 decades or so, and yes, trainers, boarding services, walkers, etc are all geared towards dogs. Instead of taking this as a measuring stick to how people feel about cats vs dogs, perhaps we should look at it from a more economic point of view. As more and more people show their willingness to spend $$ on their pets, services and products start to pop up. I'm sure many folks will remember that hiring someone to walk your dog was unheard of not so many years ago, yet now it is commonplace. Almost any product or service that you can think of for dogs probably wasn't in existence 25-30 years ago, except for kibble - which was an invention with very questionable value IMO.

My point is that anyone who knows anything about economics will tell you it's all supply and demand. If cat owners show enough demand for these products and services, someone will provide them. I believe that the lack of services/amenities offered for cats is because their owners aren't clamoring for those kinds of services/amenities, the market research does not show business investors that there is a niche to be filled. So basically what I am saying is that the folks who invent these new dog toys, or start up that new dog training facility - they aren't doing it because they think dogs are more valuable than cats, they are doing it because they can make money on it. The church that is inviting people to bring their dogs - I would bet that someone on the clergy staff has a dog with seperation anxiety or something, and it was this person that came up with the idea. Although I'm thinking that animals in church, of any species, is probably not so much a good thing. I could definitely see Hazel tackling the priest for the communion wafers or blocking everyones path until they gave her a belly rub. But I'm sure that if any given city/town was having a problem with dozens of kitties with leash aggression, soon there would be a trainer in that area specializing in kitties with leash aggression. It's not a matter of what species people believe has more value, it's a matter of supply and demand. If there is no demand, there won't be any supply.

As for people who really do think that cats are a sub-standard species not worthy of anyones compassion (and this applies to those folks who think nothing of destroying newborn kittens) - well if those people have any pets at all, someone better be keeping an awfully close eye on them because they aren't true animal lovers. If they can kill newborn kitties, then they are capable of alot more cruelty too. True animal lovers see the beauty in all species, true animal lovers see the hurt that humans cause animals and cry for each and every one no matter what kind it is, and true animal lovers believe that all animals deserve to be loved and cared for in a responsible manner, whether they have fur, feathers, scales or whatever. True animal lovers do what they can for all animals, not just the species that they happen to share their home with.

chico2
October 6th, 2009, 07:26 AM
Well said Kandy:thumbs up

Golden Girls
October 6th, 2009, 08:00 AM
Kandy great post :thumbs up

Since this thread isn't really about allowing cats to attend a mass ...

While my preference of ownership is dogs I love and respect all animals cows included. I'd like to add though IMHO I feel dog owners are discriminated against where we must legally tag our dogs and keep them restrained at all times but not cats? Many here have the mentality "it's in their cat(s) nature to roam" well, so is the dog - they just aren't allowed to (legally)

But because of this law it forced dog owners TO be responsible = MASS more cats being PTS then dogs. One unspayed cat and it's offspring can produce 420,000 kittens in a 7 yr span. Logic alone ... people should be lobbying govt's by attending council meetings for cats to be added to the dog legislation (register, tag, 2 per househouse AND restrained and/or on kept on their property) Politicians have never in history changed a law, people do!

As said more cities should adopt TNR programs, vets should be willing to go beyond the greed factor; lower/free S/N and our SPCA's should be advocating the benefit of responsible pet ownership. Rome wasn't built in a day but obviously not too much has been going forward with the overpopulation crisis of stray/feral/homeless cats :yell:

AG why not contact Pedigree, Purina and/or 9 Lives ... ask them to do a campaign about cats needing homes?

btw Dogs have Masters, Cats have Staff :p

ancientgirl
October 6th, 2009, 08:13 AM
AG why not contact Pedigree, Purina and/or 9 Lives ... ask them to do a campaign about cats needing homes?

btw Dogs have Masters, Cats have Staff :p

Yep, I've done that. I get the standard form letter about how they are developing more programs blah blah blah. I'll believe it when I see it.

Melinda
October 6th, 2009, 08:14 AM
wow, very good Kandy and GG, you two sure both look at this at different angles, I'd never have thought of those two posts myself, thanks for opening my eyes!!

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 10:07 AM
I'd like to add though IMHO I feel dog owners are discriminated against where we must legally tag our dogs and keep them restrained at all times but not cats? Many here have the mentality "it's in their cat(s) nature to roam" well, so is the dog - they just aren't allowed to (legally)


:thumbs up Exactly - this is a huge side of the problem.

Love4himies
October 6th, 2009, 10:45 AM
Well, we have to be honest, cats and dogs are not the same, period. They are two different species.

No, it is not practical to take the average cat to "church" or Petsmart as cats do not like change, cats don't like to go out of their territory, and it will stress them out to no end. There are of course the exceptions (my Snowball), but they are far and few between, and I think a cat needs to be socialized at a very young age to be this way.

As for licensing, I think all cats and dogs should be microchipped, period, the heck with the tags, they fall off, or if the animal is out without a collar they are useless, both should be treated equally.

As for being restrained outside, yes, safer for the cat, as long as the owners are watching the cat. However, I think we can all agree, in general, dogs are MUCH MORE OF A NUISANCE than cats when they are out running free. Cats don't go up to strangers and jump all over them (even if it is a super friendly hello). They don't block people's way on the sidewalk and meow at them. For some pedestrians, it is very scary to have a dog barking at them. And no, I haven't heard of a cat running free attacking people, some even to death. So I guess that would be why dogs have stricter laws.

Yes they poop and pee in gardens, but heck, lets face it, dogs do that to my grass and kill it :frustrated: :frustrated:. I can keep cats out of my garden by putting mulch down or rocks depending on where you live, but I can't stop people from walking their dogs on the sidewalk so they can pee and poo on my lawn. And at least a cat's pee and poo is buried, I don't have to worry about stepping in it.:eek::yuck:

But even if you change all the laws you want, there is still a higher regard for dogs than for cats. There is still a general belief that cats are disposable, while dogs are "mans best friend". I hear a lot in the news of rescues of dogs from disaster areas, but have yet heard of cat rescues that made the news.

BenMax
October 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM
You know, I have to agree with 14+K on this.

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 11:30 AM
However, I think we can all agree, in general, dogs are MUCH MORE OF A NUISANCE than cats when they are out running free.

:shrug: This can be argued. I actually find cats to be more frustrating when out roaming. My property is currently being used as a litterbox (and yes, I have stepped in their poo when they don't properly bury or cover it) & scratching post & feeding ground for two cats in my neighborhood (both from the same irresponsible house). Cats can jump into your enclosed yard, dogs cannot. Most cats are much more difficult to catch compared to dogs, due to their quick nature, fear of strangers, and small size.

So no I don't agree that dogs are more of a nuisance as strays.

I do agree that they are entirely two different species and I think the bottom line that we all agree on - is the fact that owners need to be more responsible and ensure the safety of their pet - be it cat or dog.

A lot of animals would not be in rescues or shelters if this was done.

Melinda
October 6th, 2009, 12:06 PM
the four cats we have around here are very much a nuisance, they are where I get most of my rescues from, well those that are able to be saved. they seem to sense when the live trap is for them and avoid it at all costs, the neighbours pom had to be taken to the vet when it was attacked by the large orange male, poor dog, he was too old to fight it off (it was in its fenced yard) its senior owner had a heck of a hard time getting the cat off of it, so yes, it is a point that could be argued, but I won't..............

Love4himies
October 6th, 2009, 12:07 PM
:shrug: This can be argued. I actually find cats to be more frustrating when out roaming. My property is currently being used as a litterbox (and yes, I have stepped in their poo when they don't properly bury or cover it) & scratching post & feeding ground for two cats in my neighborhood (both from the same irresponsible house). Cats can jump into your enclosed yard, dogs cannot. Most cats are much more difficult to catch compared to dogs, due to their quick nature, fear of strangers, and small size.

So no I don't agree that dogs are more of a nuisance as strays.

I do agree that they are entirely two different species and I think the bottom line that we all agree on - is the fact that owners need to be more responsible and ensure the safety of their pet - be it cat or dog.

A lot of animals would not be in rescues or shelters if this was done.


Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because a dog roaming free may not be able to jump a fence, but they can dig to get under the fence, they can dig up gardens, can knock people over and injure them, bite them, scare them. I just don't see cats doing that :shrug: I would much rather meet cats roaming free while I was outside than dogs. Oh yeah, dogs that are free chase me on my bike, to bite my heels, never had a cat do that :yell: :frustrated: Not to mention a black lab that ran up to our front door steps to attack my Snowball (Snowball was leashed walking up our front steps). Good think DH was around or Snowball would probably be dead. So yeah, I guess I find dogs more of a nuisance running free than cats.

BenMax
October 6th, 2009, 12:12 PM
In my opinion dogs that are stray are much more of a nuisance. They are unpredictable on how to approach and/or catch. (trust me, was bit in the face by a stray chow - not pleasant). Stepping in dog doo is also more upsetting than trying to find the cat feces to step in it - not likely.

Bottom line is that neither of these scenarios are pleasant. While the laws on cat ownership is less 'important', there is no light at the end of this tunnel.

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because a dog roaming free may not be able to jump a fence, but they can dig to get under the fence, they can dig up gardens, can knock people over and injure them, bite them, scare them. I just don't see cats doing that :shrug: I would much rather meet cats roaming free while I was outside than dogs. Oh yeah, dogs that are free chase me on my bike, to bite my heels, never had a cat do that :yell: :frustrated: Not to mention a black lab that ran up to our front door steps to attack my Snowball (Snowball was leashed walking up our front steps). Good think DH was around or Snowball would probably be dead. So yeah, I guess I find dogs more of a nuisance running free than cats.

:eek: Poor Snowball! That's scary. Glad he was okay!

Just to clarify, I totally agree that dogs are also a nuisance when left to roam. Any animal really, that is left to their free will in our neighborhoods can be destructive, dangerous, and put themselves and others at risk. :sad:

It's sad to see this problem exist at all.

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 12:24 PM
In my opinion dogs that are stray are much more of a nuisance. They are unpredictable on how to approach and/or catch. (trust me, was bit in the face by a stray chow - not pleasant). Stepping in dog doo is also more upsetting than trying to find the cat feces to step in it - not likely.

Bottom line is that neither of these scenarios are pleasant. While the laws on cat ownership is less 'important', there is no light at the end of this tunnel.


I totally agree that neither scenario is a pleasant one. But I have to disagree with the thought that dogs are more unpredictable on how to approach or catch. A dog speaks volumes to us and lets us know how it is feeling. If we are bit by a stray, this IMHO is not because the dog was unpredictable, it's because we were simply not watching to listen to what the dog was telling us, in effect letting our gaurd down. Would you not agree?

When we rescue and catch on the nearby reserves we run into many dogs/puppies that have never been handled by humans; however there are always warning signs as to how these dogs will react when approached - and even how we should handle the dog once we have it in our possession.

Love4himies
October 6th, 2009, 12:41 PM
:eek: Poor Snowball! That's scary. Glad he was okay!

Just to clarify, I totally agree that dogs are also a nuisance when left to roam. Any animal really, that is left to their free will in our neighborhoods can be destructive, dangerous, and put themselves and others at risk. :sad:

It's sad to see this problem exist at all.

You are so right, I don't agree with cats roaming either, I think the owners are setting the pet up for risk and should be treated the same in the eyes of the law. I wonder if they are not because of the high cost to animal control if they had to trap and chase every free roaming cat and keep them for a week while looking for their owners. Unfortunately, I think people allow their cats to roam because they don't have as high respect for their life, that cats are disposable :sad:.

And yes, every animal is a nusiance, even the sweet innocent fawns, who have totally destroyed my garden :yell:. But, hey, a rose bush is not, and will never be as important as a life.

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 12:43 PM
But, hey, a rose bush is not, and will never be as important as a life.

Very true L4H. :thumbs up I love that!!

Love4himies
October 6th, 2009, 12:44 PM
the four cats we have around here are very much a nuisance, they are where I get most of my rescues from, well those that are able to be saved. they seem to sense when the live trap is for them and avoid it at all costs, the neighbours pom had to be taken to the vet when it was attacked by the large orange male, poor dog, he was too old to fight it off (it was in its fenced yard) its senior owner had a heck of a hard time getting the cat off of it, so yes, it is a point that could be argued, but I won't..............

I have had one of those evil, fearless cats when I was a teenager. He was very territorial and jumped on the back of a large dog that came into our yard and clawed his eyes, poor dog, was yelping in pain :sad:.

14+kitties
October 6th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Many here have the mentality "it's in their cat(s) nature to roam" (legally)

GoldenGirls - do you mean many in your area or many people on this forum? Sorry, just a little unclear. I am thinking you mean the Montreal area?

I am all for cats being tagged/microchipped/kept on leashes if outside (unless of course they are in sanctuaries :rolleyes:). As I said previously, the town nearest to me tryed doing that. It just did not go over well. There are flat out too many farmers in this area. Cats are mousers. Yes, they are very nice to have around. Yes, they are great to pet and everything. But if a coyote gets them or a car mashes them into the road it's pretty danged easy to get another. Most are not even named. :sad:

There was a gentleman here yesterday. One of hubby's customers. He asked about the cat enclosure and I told him the objective - to keep the cats in a safe area away from coyotes and cars. He asked the normal questions about vets - s/n, how I could afford such big bills, how many I have, etc, etc, etc. He congratulated me for doing a good thing. Then he told me his daughter does this. She goes to the city and "rescues" a couple of cats from somewhere and brings them out to his farm. She comes out to feed them every couple of days but he has them to "keep the mice down." He goes on to tell me the cats are usually there for a year or two and they disappear - usually eaten by those coyotes or killed by cars. Now tell me, is the daughter "rescuing" those cats or is she replenishing her father's supply of "mouse catchers"? :sad: As I keep saying - farmer's mentality.

I am not even going to try the dog vs cat argument again. It is not a winnable one. We all love our pets, bottom line.

ancientgirl
October 6th, 2009, 02:48 PM
Then he told me his daughter does this. She goes to the city and "rescues" a couple of cats from somewhere and brings them out to his farm. She comes out to feed them every couple of days but he has them to "keep the mice down." He goes on to tell me the cats are usually there for a year or two and they disappear - usually eaten by those coyotes or killed by cars. Now tell me, is the daughter "rescuing" those cats or is she replenishing her father's supply of "mouse catchers"? :sad: As I keep saying - farmer's mentality.

I am not even going to try the dog vs cat argument again. It is not a winnable one. We all love our pets, bottom line.

Doesn't sound like much rescuing is going on here except for the farmers crops. :frustrated:

BenMax
October 6th, 2009, 03:54 PM
[QUOTE=Bailey_;833786]I totally agree that neither scenario is a pleasant one. But I have to disagree with the thought that dogs are more unpredictable on how to approach or catch. A dog speaks volumes to us and lets us know how it is feeling. If we are bit by a stray, this IMHO is not because the dog was unpredictable, it's because we were simply not watching to listen to what the dog was telling us, in effect letting our gaurd down. Would you not agree?

QUOTE]

No I do not agree at all. A stray dog is under considerable stress and to evaluate a stressed animal (be it dog or cat) is impossible under these conditions. One would have to study a dog for a while to see all the body language associated with the stress and environment. They are highly unpredictable. Some people think that a dog wagging their tail means they are happy - untrue.

Now Bailey - if you take my circumstances you cannot tell me that you would be able to read a Chow under stressful situations. These dogs are not your regular breed and they are to be handled very differently than any other breed as well. A stray chow or even one that is being evaluated for temperment, is difficult enough to read under normal conditions. One cannot properly assess this breed without knowing it inside and out. But this is totally off topic...my apologies.

chico2
October 6th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Luckily we do not see many,if any stray dogs around here,but when we are walking Bailey,any stray dog would worry me,not so cats.
Since we have lived here we've caught 3 stray dogs and they all had a home to go to,after HS picked them up.
One thing we can all agree on,it's not the dogs fault or the cats,it's the people and they are not going to change their attitude any time soon.
They get a little adorable kitten,feed it some cheap food and when it grows up out it goes,if a female has babies,those kittens given away for free will have the same future and the evil cycle continues:sad:
I wish there was some way to knock sense in to people,to open their eyes to see what wonderful creatures cats really are:pray:

14+that daughter is definitely not a rescuer,those cats are all better off without her help,for sure:evil:to compare her to your work with cats is outrageous:yell:

Bailey_
October 6th, 2009, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=Bailey_;833786]I totally agree that neither scenario is a pleasant one. But I have to disagree with the thought that dogs are more unpredictable on how to approach or catch. A dog speaks volumes to us and lets us know how it is feeling. If we are bit by a stray, this IMHO is not because the dog was unpredictable, it's because we were simply not watching to listen to what the dog was telling us, in effect letting our gaurd down. Would you not agree?

QUOTE]

No I do not agree at all. A stray dog is under considerable stress and to evaluate a stressed animal (be it dog or cat) is impossible under these conditions. One would have to study a dog for a while to see all the body language associated with the stress and environment. They are highly unpredictable. Some people think that a dog wagging their tail means they are happy - untrue.

Now Bailey - if you take my circumstances you cannot tell me that you would be able to read a Chow under stressful situations. These dogs are not your regular breed and they are to be handled very differently than any other breed as well. A stray chow or even one that is being evaluated for temperment, is difficult enough to read under normal conditions. One cannot properly assess this breed without knowing it inside and out. But this is totally off topic...my apologies.

You know I respect your opinion, experience, and thoughts BenMax. I appreciate your comments on this, even though I personally still continue to disagree.

A dog - especially one in a stressful environment - will tell us how it is feeling. It is true that we don't know how it will react, BUT they tell us and this can be seen from the moment you look at the dog, how it stands, how much eye contact is being made, how it makes eye contact, how it tries to approach someone - or in turn - get away from them (if it walks slowly away with it's head still turned to watch the person, if it runs full tilt and doesn't look back, if it runs to hide and stays where they cannot physically see the person), how it responds to our voice, how it responds to our own body movement etc.

And I have to add - YES assessing a stray dog forces one to assess the dog with the situation in mind. Obviously it can potentially be quite dangerous. I don't want to give the impression that anyone can walk up to a stray dog and assume that they can follow a 'checklist' and catch the animal, be it dog or cat. Much of this requires instinct as well as experience, and while I am a firm believer that there is no reason for APOfficers or rescue crews to be bit - I'm not saying that it cannot happen because of the stressful environment for both the person catching and the animal.

With that said, MANY things can be told about a stray dog, just by the first few seconds of interaction, and the only time I have ever been bitten was when I personally instigated a dog for assessment reasons or I let my gaurd down and trusted an animal that was severely emotionally damaged too soon.

I do agree that certain breeds are harder to read than others, but I still stand by my original comment. :shrug:

I suppose we will take this one as a agree to disagree and I will stop threadjacking. :o;)

BenMax
October 7th, 2009, 09:15 AM
:sorry::offtopic:Bailey - it's all good. We have enough respect for one another to agree to disagree. I am ok with that...BUT tell that to my face will you? I am scared for life as saving this dog from being hit by a car was my main objective. Was there time to properly assess -nope. I do NOT recommend people to do what I did..absolutely not. Would I do it again - probably but that is my own stupidity talking I guess.

Yep off topic...but on in a sense that saving a cat is less tramatic under these circumstances.

Ok back on topic again...so sorry.:)

Bailey_
October 7th, 2009, 01:34 PM
:sorry::offtopic: Actually BenMax, I stand corrected. That is a great example of the kind of scenarios where you don't think about what the dog is feeling or how it is reacting to you approaching - you need to remove it from a potentially dangerous situation to itself.

Kudos to you for doing so and :highfive:!!:thumbs up

14+kitties
October 8th, 2009, 06:08 AM
So a member left a link in another thread to provide a spot for low cost s/n. It shows clearer than anything any of us can the inequality of cats and dogs....

http://www.hartanimalrelief.ca/

To quote: "With the advantage of ‘outside’ donor support, HART is working with the municipal pound, to provide vet care including spay/neuter/vaccines/emergencytreatment/responsible placement, for all dogs at the pound.
To date, cats/kittens there have also benefitted…but further work to serve felines is compromised by the sheer number of desperate animals and NO financial norfoster/adoptive resources. Neither HART nor the pound, currently intakes cats."

:sad: Just too :sad:.

aslan
October 8th, 2009, 06:39 AM
lol, i'm sure i'm going to phrase something wrong here, but stay with me. We humans seem to need to feel needed, and people think you get that more from a dog over a cat..Doesn't mean it's true. A dog will run to the door and bounce and be all stupid cause mommy who was just outside for two seconds came home. kitty on the other hand looks up yeah hi,,,As Chico2 said you need to know how to read or understand the animal. Both creatures are loving and affectionate in their own way. Cats seemed to be looked at as, self sufficient, loners, cold, whatever. Where as a dog will sit and look at you while you're pooring your heart out and humans get the feeling that they love and understand everything your telling them. Meanwhile the poor dog is probably wondering what is for dinner, walk, etc. For some reason it just seems easier for us to project our feelings and thoughts on a dog.

Both animal can be equally annoying at times, dogs jump up, cats spray on your windows. Dogs may bite, cats poop in the garden. Depending on which animal you prefer decides which traits bug you..L4H, next dog that poops on your lawn, scoop it up, follow the person and deposit on their doorstep.:evil: It is law in Ontario that you have to stoop and scoop for you canine.

As for licences, in T.O it is law that both animals are supposed to be tagged. Just recently the humane society went door to door checking on animals in each residant. I would say the ratio of untagged dogs was higher than kitties, cause Rover goes bouncing to the door woofing and acting all stupid..Kitty remained on the couch unheard so the HS worker was none the wiser.

Personal opinion, if one animal size is allowed into public places then all should be. If you can't allow that then none should be allowed. :2cents:

Love4himies
October 8th, 2009, 07:00 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head, aslan, on why dogs are "preferred" over cats.

I know I have been one of the fortunate ones to have such a loyal companion as a cat, many are independent as you stated.

chico2
October 8th, 2009, 07:28 AM
me too l4h,sorry,i am a one-hander this morning,rocky on my arm...i think he read the calendar where it says 'rocky vet fri 10.15am':laughing:so he's being really clingy:laughing:
oops,got the wrong day,it's today LOL

ancientgirl
October 8th, 2009, 07:41 AM
Awww, Rocky.:lovestruck:

clm
October 8th, 2009, 07:44 AM
Two very different species domesticated for different purposes to begin with. Where to start. :laughing:
Are cats considered more disposable than dogs. No I really don't think so. If as many dogs were allowed to run free outside unspayed or neutered as cats, there would be just as big a problem with the number of them in shelters as cats, and just as many put down I think.
Should cats be allowed to roam free outside to start with. No I don't think so. If you have a properly fenced yard that your cat can't escape from or choose to take your cat out on a harness, then so be it. Should they be allowed to roam the neighbourhood in a city? No way, they're going to annoy your neighbours and may get killed by a car. So my opinion is that in the confines of a town or city, neither cats nor dogs should be allowed to roam free. Cats can however and dogs can't. Some would argue this is bias for the cats and against dogs. I would say that this means that dogs are kept safer in a city and cats being given more freedom are not.
In a rural situation, quite often dogs and cats roam free. They are often considered working animals and it's quite often imperitive that they be allowed to do so for rodent and stock management. No bias there. Quite often both are not spayed or neutered. Just as many puppies are drowned at birth as kittens are. Again no bias there. :sad: I would argue from my own experience that just as many dogs are shot or poisened if they wander onto someones property as cats too. If you neutered or spayed cats, their predisposition to wander far from home would certainly be diminished in this situation and all rural dogs should be confined to a fenced area when not working or trained to stay within the confines of ones own property and should also spayed and neutered.
Dogs and cats in public places. Is there a bias there? Absolutely, but more species related than anything I think. If they had leash free parks for cats, would you take yours? I know I wouldn't take mine. I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in :evil: of getting that cat back should it decide to take off. A chain link fence is nothing to a cat to scale. Are they going to socialize and play together like dogs? Not likely, but there would likely be some dandy fights.
Would I take my cats to a petstore like Rens or superpet like I would my dogs? No again. They would be totally freaked out by the other dogs and all the people. Would I take my cats to someones cottage or house if I was visiting for a coffe or for the weekend? Only if I wanted to spend the entire time trying to find them after they've hidden themselves. :rolleyes: Would I take my dogs? Only if I was sure they were welcome and were going to be well behaved. Do I take my cats for a car ride? Not unless I want to hear them yowl and smell cat urine or have them empty their bowels because they're scared.
Should either be allowed in a church or a non pet store or a cafe? Unless its a mobility or a guide dog, no IMO.
Just one other thing.....I'm not sure about this, but maybe some of you are....are more people allergic to cat dander than dog dander? It was always my belief that this was true, which would also lend itself to keeping cats out of confined public buildings.
My 2 cents worth on the subject anyway. :laughing:

clm

ancientgirl
October 8th, 2009, 07:54 AM
Just one other thing.....I'm not sure about this, but maybe some of you are....are more people allergic to cat dander than dog dander? It was always my belief that this was true, which would also lend itself to keeping cats out of confined public buildings.
My 2 cents worth on the subject anyway. :laughing:

clm

I've always thought if you were allergic to one, you'd be allergic to the other, which is my case. I'm allergic to both dogs and cats. However, I have been told that being allergic to both isn't the norm, and that most people are allergic to cats. We all know the allergy excuse is an easy one to try and get away with and for people to justify their letting a cat outside or for that matter, getting rid of any pet, be they dog or cat.

Melinda
October 8th, 2009, 08:16 AM
I am allergic to both, also feathers , horse hair and cow hair....*L* nothing like getting it all in one shot, oh and a side note, I'm also allergic to synthetic hair, all my dolls were bald growing up.

Golden Girls
October 8th, 2009, 08:27 AM
[QUOTE]As for licensing, I think all cats and dogs should be microchipped, period, the heck with the tags, they fall off, or if the animal is out without a collar they are useless, both should be treated equally.We microchip but we also MUST purchase a yearly $25 NEON city tag (funds directly to AC) and must be worn at all times an animal is visible otherwise you WILL get a ticket.

I think we can all agree, in general, dogs are MUCH MORE OF A NUISANCE than cats when they are out running free. Cats don't go up to strangers and jump all over them (even if it is a super friendly hello). They don't block people's way on the sidewalk and meow at them. For some pedestrians, it is very scary to have a dog barking at them. And no, I haven't heard of a cat running free attacking people, some even to death. So I guess that would be why dogs have stricter laws :eek: I certainly DO NOT agree with this! GEEEEEESH! But I will not go so low as to try to minimize ANY animals worth, their all important. Speaking for myself last weel 3 cats were fighting on the roof of my car while on the phone with the SPCA reporting a discarded dismembered bears head I bumped into and I not for one second thought neither to be a nuisance. Guess it depends on the inviduals your speaking of but please don't assume everyone will agree with you

There are cat owners, dog owners as well as mixed households. I think we chose our pets based on the personality traits we have or admire. IMO The difference I see between dog & cat people is how we interact with them. Dog owners seem to enjoy being taken out of their lives while cat owners welcome their pets into their's ... loving them is what matters whatever animal or breed.

14+ Yes "here" = Montreal

Love4himies
October 8th, 2009, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE=Love4himies;833743]We microchip but we also MUST purchase a yearly $25 NEON city tag (funds directly to AC) and must be worn at all times an animal is visible otherwise you WILL get a ticket.

:eek: I certainly DO NOT agree with this! GEEEEEESH! But I will not go so low as to try to minimize ANY animals worth, their all important. Speaking for myself last weel 3 cats were fighting on the roof of my car while on the phone with the SPCA reporting a discarded dismembered bears head I bumped into and I not for one second thought neither to be a nuisance. Guess it depends on the inviduals your speaking of but please don't assume everyone will agree with you

There are cat owners, dog owners as well as mixed households. I think we chose our pets based on the personality traits we have or admire. IMO The difference I see between dog & cat people is how we interact with them. Dog owners seem to enjoy being taken out of their lives while cat owners welcome their pets into their's ... loving them is what matters whatever animal or breed.

14+ Yes "here" = Montreal

Well, you can agree or not, as far as I am concerned, if dogs were allowed to run free as much as cats, there would be much more chaos on the streets. Like I mentioned, I don't have to worry about cats when I am biking, just the roaming dogs, when I walk on the sidewalk, I don't have to worry about cats jumping up on me, I do when there is a dog running after me. Can you imagin what would happen if they formed packs :eek: People would be afraid to go for walks.

Golden Girls
October 8th, 2009, 09:13 AM
[QUOTE=Golden Girls;834554]

Well, you can agree or not, as far as I am concerned, if dogs were allowed to run free as much as cats, there would be much more chaos on the streets. Like I mentioned, I don't have to worry about cats when I am biking, just the roaming dogs, when I walk on the sidewalk, I don't have to worry about cats jumping up on me, I do when there is a dog running after me. Can you imagin what would happen if they formed packs :eek: People would be afraid to go for walks.Thank DAWG then these laws are keeping you safe:)

kandy
October 8th, 2009, 03:24 PM
So when a town/city has a leash law - but only dog owners ever get fined for violating that law, how is the cat being discriminated against? When a town/city has laws against nuisance animals, but only dog owners ever get fined for having a nuisance animal, how is the cat being discriminated against? I'm talking about perfectly friendly dogs & cats. The dog will get caught for sure, the cat - very rarely will it get caught.

Personally, I'd rather be the cat owner that doesn't have to pay for the yearly tag, doesn't have to obey the laws regarding animals, doesn't have to worry about getting my pet taken away or forced to wear a muzzle because some authority figure says my chosen breed is inherently vicious, doesn't get turned away from walking through a park, or have my insurance premiums raised (or denied entirely), doesn't have to carry a poop bag dispenser everywhere, heck - doesn't even have to take the animal outside especially in weather that makes your nostrils stick together and takes your breath away! Based on the premise that since cat owners don't normally pay for that yearly license, their pets don't get caught off leash and they aren't charged with (or fined for) having a nuisance animal, I'd say cat owners get off pretty easy. Perhaps if more of those laws for cats were enforced, and their owners fined, shelters would be able to afford to fund more programs for cats.

And where I live, dogs and cats are on equal footing in the eyes of the ranchers. If a dog doesn't perform it's duties well enough, it's killed or dumped - same for the cats. The only difference is that the rancher has to catch the cat first - the dog doesn't stand a chance.

BenMax
October 8th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Kandy - that is very insightful really.....when you put it this way, I see your point.

onster
October 8th, 2009, 10:24 PM
[QUOTE=Golden Girls;834554]

Well, you can agree or not, as far as I am concerned, if dogs were allowed to run free as much as cats, there would be much more chaos on the streets. Like I mentioned, I don't have to worry about cats when I am biking, just the roaming dogs, when I walk on the sidewalk, I don't have to worry about cats jumping up on me, I do when there is a dog running after me. Can you imagin what would happen if they formed packs :eek: People would be afraid to go for walks.

I agree with you, loose dogs are definitely more of an issue. In egypt the stray dogs form packs and sometimes they do terrorize neighborhoods. Sometimes they get bold and bite small children etc and it gets to the point that people are afraid to leave their homes ...then they end up getting shot :sad: the same doesnt happen with cats ...