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need everyones input on me.

HUGH LAWSON
August 17th, 2004, 03:05 PM
I need your guys and ladies input. I am 22 years old and own 2 pit bulls. One male, one female. I believe I am a responsible pit bull owner. I have made a couple of people change there minds of the breeds and some kids who are petrified of dogs now like my dogs. My male is 80 pounds 23 inch head 22 inch neck. He is very laid back but you do have to watch him around other dogs. So I keep him on a leash. He is purple ribbon UKC registered. A lot of people would like to use him for stud but they have to be UKC registered and I have to believe the female and my male will make the breed better. My female is a 50 pound female no papers but she is THE ultimate pit bull by my standards. She is able to climb up to 8 foot trees, her drive is amazing. Leaping ability is something I have never seen before. She can pull 800 lbs. Thatís the most I have tried with her. I mean she just doesnít give up. There is so much more to say about her. I did not want to breed her because she didnít have papers but when I was on deployment (Iím in the Navy) she became pregnant by my male. Now she is do in 2 weeks. I have everything set up for her so I do know what Iím doing. But my main question is, is there any way to get her some kind of papers or even just the pups since my male is registered? My future goal is to start my own kennel when I get out. Nothing big but mainly for me. I am looking to buy at least 5 acres of land, and I plan on owning 5 pit bulls at one time. I love these dogs and every person I sale my pups to must pass a home inspection by me. I really donít want anyone getting these dogs to cause harm to them. She is having 5 puppies. Already have 2 people waiting to go to a good home. I just want your input to see if there is anything I should do towards getting these pups papers if possible. Appreciate this. Oh yeah my dogs names are Duece and Shiva both fawn color but my male has a blue mask look on his face. Iíll post one later.

heidiho
August 17th, 2004, 03:06 PM
If you are breeding dont expect great responses

HUGH LAWSON
August 17th, 2004, 03:16 PM
here the pic

GsdDiamond
August 17th, 2004, 03:23 PM
My future goal is to start my own kennel when I get out. Nothing big but mainly for me. I am looking to buy at least 5 acres of land, and I plan on owning 5 pit bulls at one time. I love these dogs and every person I sale my pups to must pass a home inspection by me.

How can you think of breeding these poor dogs? Most will likely wind up either fighting or becoming part of yet another BYB after they leave your little mill. Even worse if you actually convince someone at the UKC/AKC/CKC to register your female (not like that's going to happen). You say that they're mainly for you, but that you require a home inspection before selling them. Which is it? Dogs for pleasure or profit? I feel sorry for the dogs. You obviously don't have their best interests at heart - a responsible owner would have them (at least her) fixed. :mad:

I own a purebred GSD, whose parents are champions. Did I get her to breed her? No. I did the responsible thing, which is also the right thing, and had her spayed. Think of your dog...not your pocketbook! :mad: :mad: :mad:

LavenderRott
August 17th, 2004, 03:26 PM
Since you are planning on becoming a responsible breeder there are a couple of things that you need to think about. No, since your bitch does not have papers, there is no way to get the puppies papered by a responsible registry. There are a couple of registies out there that cater to the puppy mill and backyard breeder though. Not to be rude, but if this is the route you want to take, you will need to do that research yourself. I spend too much time trying to stop puppy mills and Breed Specific Legislation to help someone perpetuate these things.

I don't know much about pit bulls except there are a couple of different breeds in that are considered pit bulls, what they were originally bred for and what the reputation is now. I know that I shouldn't, but I assume that since you want to raise them, you are aware of this and you have researched the breed that you have. You are aware of any genetic problems you need to watch out for such as hip dysplasia, heart conditions, blood conditions, etc. You know when to test for what and what should not be bred as far as these things are concerned.

Since these puppies are not registered, may I suggest that you sell them on a spay/neuter contract. Maybe charging a bit more to be refunded when you get something from the vet stating that this has been taken care of. Since your bitch is not registered, you may consider having her spayed. The health benefits for her can mean the difference between a long life and a short one. It won't change her personality.

Lucky Rescue
August 17th, 2004, 03:26 PM
Hugh, I'm sure you love your dogs. But in one sentence you say you are a responsible owner.

Then you go on to say you have two intact pit bulls, and an accidental breeding. Your stud dog is oversized and untitled, and your bitch hasn't even got papers (not that papers mean anything) That is NOT responsible. Do you have any idea of the slaughter of pit bulls that is going right now, because people are breeding them far too much? What are you going to do if you cant' get perfect, responsible and lifetime homes for the other three puppies, when pit bull puppies are a dime a dozen?

It doesn't matter if they have papers or not. Many shelters are filled with pit bulls and lots of them are papered purebreds, and many of them are every bit as sweet and beautiful as yours are. You have just added another yet another litter of badly bred pit bulls by breeding your unhealth tested, untitled and unpapered bitch. That is called "backyard breeding" at it's worst, and is the height of irresponsibility, especially for this breed!

I'm very glad you are using your dogs to change people's minds, but if you want to be really responsible, you will write up adoption contracts for these puppies, including a SPAY/NEUTER clause - or better yet - get them spayed and neutered BEFORE they go to new homes, then get your own dogs spayed and neutered.

I have a beautiful purebred blue fawn pit bull bitch. And she is "THE ultimate pit bull" by MY standards. I would NEVER have bred her, because I don't want to part of the "pit bull problem". I love the breed too much to want to hurt them.

If you want to breed dogs eventually, you need to title them in conformation or performance, have the stud or bitch health tested and cleared of any and ALL genetic defects common to the breed, study genetics, bloodlines and breeding for YEARS. Make sure they are the "ultimate pit bulls" according to a judge's standards and not yours! And even then you shouldn't be breeding until the hundred-odd thousand homeless pit bulls have homes.

Your PR UKC means precisely nothing, unless you have shown this dog to a championship. Have you?

I know you won't like any of this, but these are the facts, not just MY opinion.

mastifflover
August 17th, 2004, 03:28 PM
Well you have obviously done your research and are well informed. I really am not big on breeding especially since there are literally thousand of pits in shelters and rescues across the U.S. and Canada and now having to deal with breed bans as well. These breed ban laws will have so many of these homeless dogs pts, I find this very sad. So I understand that you are going to be selective as to who can own these dogs but bottom line people do not always abide by the agreements that they make with breeders otherwise we would not have so many breed rescues. You might end up selling one of these dogs to some guy with no self esteem who needs a dog to be his ego and train this dog to be vicous and aggressive and then breed it with another aggressive dog to get the ultimate aggressive pit so he can be super macho. This is partially how this breed ended up at this sad state because of ignorant people not knowing what they are doing and I do not mean you but joe blow on the street. Some people are very good at coming off as responsible and the perfect dog owner meanwhile they are just showing you what you want in an owner. Also I don't think there is anyway to get papers for a dog that had none to start. Please think long and hard about breeding it is a huge responsibility. This was not meant to be mean or rude just my opinion and how I feel about breeding, especially a dog that has such a bad rap by no fault of their own.

HUGH LAWSON
August 17th, 2004, 03:41 PM
WOW. all i really wanted to know is if i can register the pups. i already have homes for the pups except for one. i am not trying to make a profit here. i love my dogs and when i said starting my own kennel i meant 4-5 years in the future not right now. this breeding was a accident i wasn't there when this happpened. no gsddiamond i really don't think i am irresponsible. if i couldn't get papers then i will nueter my female of course i was just asking. you guys are Quick to attack but i understand why but i am not doing this to make a profit. my male is not over weight either. came from the vet and only thing he said was he recommended getting his teeth clean. as for as titles he has three from ukc weight pulling.

HUGH LAWSON
August 17th, 2004, 03:56 PM
and yes i have tested my dogs for everything. here is another question. if before ukc dogs didn't have papers how would you get them registered. and my female was judged by a ukc judge out here in hawaii i guess i should just speak to him. but i really understand why you guys would rather me not breed. but what is backyard breeding. if i have my kennel in my backyard and do everything responsibly. i'm still a back yard breeder even with championships and enough property to handle these dogs? i don't do this for a profit. so i really don't want you guys thinking this. i only sale these pups to people i know. people i work with or see so if they have problems i can help out or even return them to me. this is the reason for such large property for me. i am really looking for advise to help me become the best breeder i can be. i am not starting my kennel for another 4-5 years and i don't want to do this wrong at all. if they return the pups then i have prepared for that also. my father who also breeds (horses) has the room on his ranch and has worked things out with him also. trust me i refuse to do this wrong.

Lucky Rescue
August 17th, 2004, 04:03 PM
my male is not over weight

I didn't say he was overweight, I said he was oversized. It's wonderful that he has performance titles, but by health testing I don't mean the kind where the vet says he's healthy.

Yes, you could get papers for your bitch from the Continental Kennel Club. They would probably give registration papers on a kangaroo. Why do you want papers on your bitch anyway?

I"m sorry you feel attacked, but I see so many dumped, abused pit bulls - including entire litters of puppies - not to be alarmed at hearing about yet another litter that should never have been born.

GsdDiamond
August 17th, 2004, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry if you think I'm attacking you, but when it seems like you're looking at not having your animals fixed and thinking of purchasing 5 acres of land to start your own kennel, yeah, that makes me think you're doing this for profit, not pleasure. If your dogs were solely for pleasure/company, then you'd waste no time in having your male neutered, and your female spayed as soon as she had the pups.

Now, if you're looking at turning your 5 acres into a rescue kennel, then kudos for you! Each animal should be spayed/neutered to avoid unwanted puppies. That way you won't be contributing to the mass slaughter of unwanted dogs.

I'm no expert on "champion" dogs, but I would think that champions (at least my dog's dam/sire are) are show dogs, not dogs that get working titles.

The only ones who'll want puppies from such a strong dog are those that will either start up mills, or try to sell them as fighting dogs. Either way, it's a horrible life for the poor dog.

Besides, if you're getting more dogs later on, the lowered amount of testosterone (sp?) will sorta help with the possible fights that'll break out when two get together. Leave an intact bitch around intact males and you're looking for trouble!

LavenderRott
August 17th, 2004, 04:13 PM
If you do the things you say you are going to do, put titles on your dogs, have them tested and found sound for genetic diseases, keep track of where the puppies go and take them back if necessary, then you are well on your way to becoming a hobby breeder. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with a hobby breeder as long as you are ethical, are not in it to make a profit and keep to the goals you stated in your post. Hobby breeding is a lot of work and secondary to the companionship and bond of working with your dogs. Think of it like this, you wouldn't put the change in your pocket in a case and call it a coin collection, would you?

Your bitch may well be everything you like in the breed but it won't mean a hill of beans if she drops dead of sub aortic stenosis, will it? Or if she throws pups that can't walk after a year because of hip dysplasia? See my point? Again, I have no idea what the genetic diseases are that your breed is prone to, I deal with rottweilers and those are their issues. Yours could be quite different.

Make sure that you have answers for any questions that a perspective puppy buyer may have and you have a ton more questions of your own. I am sure you would be heartbroken to find that you had not asked so many questions and inadvertantly sold your puppy to someone who was, shall we say, less then ethical.

And when you sell your pups, don't forget your local rescue group. I am sure they would appreciate a donation and you would be helping a breed you love.

LavenderRott
August 17th, 2004, 04:17 PM
I'm no expert on "champion" dogs, but I would think that champions (at least my dog's dam/sire are) are show dogs, not dogs that get working titles.

Actually, a well bred dog comes from parents who have both. Then kennel that I would like to get my next rottweiler from has champion show dogs with working titles in obedience, herding, and agility. A few of their dogs are also carting dogs.

German Shepherds were not bred to be beautiful and quite frankly, with the top lines I have been seeing in the ring lately, I am not so sure I would want one with championship parents. I am much more interested in parents that are certified OFA sound in hips, elbows and heart with working titles.

HUGH LAWSON
August 17th, 2004, 05:16 PM
i am really thankful for your inputs. i really want to do this right. the reason i was looking for he papers for the puppies is because ukc shows how many pups male or female has had. and yes my female will be getting spayed asap. and the reason for 5 acres is cause i grew up in the city and just want a lot of space. it's just that it would bennifet for my dogs now to have a place to run. thank you EVERYONE. at least next time i post and have questions i know its coming from people who care. :)

glasslass
August 17th, 2004, 10:33 PM
I'm coming on here late today. Looks like most issues have been pretty thoroughly discussed. But, I do have one question. You say you are a responsible owner and that the accidental mating wasn't your fault because you are in the Navy and weren't home. Who takes care of these dogs when you're away? Owners are responsible for their pets AT ALL TIMES. What arrangements do you make for their care? :confused:

Luba
August 17th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Thank u 'lass that is what I was going to ask.

GsdDiamond
August 18th, 2004, 11:21 AM
Actually, a well bred dog comes from parents who have both. Then kennel that I would like to get my next rottweiler from has champion show dogs with working titles in obedience, herding, and agility. A few of their dogs are also carting dogs.

German Shepherds were not bred to be beautiful and quite frankly, with the top lines I have been seeing in the ring lately, I am not so sure I would want one with championship parents. I am much more interested in parents that are certified OFA sound in hips, elbows and heart with working titles.

I didn't know this. My GSD was not only bred from parents with looks. Both parents hold schutzhund titles as well. Also, her parent's xrays have been certified sound, and she has a lifetime guarantee for hips and elbows. (not that I could EVER give her away!!)

But I thank you for clearing this up for me. I had no idea that all these things were something to look for. I knew about the hips/elbows/other defects, but not the others.

GsdDiamond
August 18th, 2004, 11:25 AM
i am really thankful for your inputs. i really want to do this right. the reason i was looking for he papers for the puppies is because ukc shows how many pups male or female has had. and yes my female will be getting spayed asap. and the reason for 5 acres is cause i grew up in the city and just want a lot of space. it's just that it would bennifet for my dogs now to have a place to run. thank you EVERYONE. at least next time i post and have questions i know its coming from people who care. :)

Good for you. Since you're spaying the female (AND neutering the male???), do up the adoption contracts for the pups, like LuckyRescue mentioned earlier, and you'll be all set. Then you won't have to worry about the pups being bought by BYBs!

HUGH LAWSON
August 18th, 2004, 05:35 PM
my wife takes care of them. they sleep in our living room at night and have there own little section to themselves. when she is in heat we keep her in her kennel. i don't know the full extent of if it happened when they were outside in the backyard or in the house but my wife says she didn't know she was in heat and saw them stuck together and from then on they were separated.

Lucky Rescue
August 18th, 2004, 05:40 PM
when she is in heat we keep her in her kennel.

How old is this bitch?

PLEASE do not take offense, as I am asking this because I'm truly curious and interested in the answer.

If she has no papers, titles or health tests, why was she not spayed to make sure something like this didn't happen?

Luba
August 18th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Well LR it's obvious...it's irresponsibility. :mad:

LavenderRott
August 18th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Alright ladies, he has learned his lesson and is getting his bitch spayed. For a young man, he seems to have given this a lot of thought. Let's stop beating up on him for something that happened while he was away serving his country. Stuff happens, even to the most experienced dog owners. Now it is time to let it go. I am sure his young wife is not happy about this either.

Lucky Rescue
August 18th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Sandi, I am not "beating up" on him. I am truly curious as to why someone would let a bitch have multiple heats and not have her spayed, especially when there is an intact male in the home.

I have no ulterior motive, and this is an honest question. I know someone who just got his 5 year old dog spayed (he has an intact male also) and I asked him the same thing. We're still friends. :D

Luba
August 18th, 2004, 10:42 PM
But this individual wants to start his own kennel so why would he spay?
It wouldnt make sense! :confused:

I think being that this person was not responsible enough to have them separated to begin with would make me wonder just what kind of responsibility as a breeder he would be.

I dunno, the breeding thing is throwing me off.

LavenderRott
August 18th, 2004, 11:18 PM
The dog was accidently bred while he was deployed with the Navy, serving his country. After this litter, she will be spayed. Since she is due to deliver shortly, I doubt that anything can be done except making sure the puppies go to good homes.

I am forty years old. I was not born with the knowledge that I have now. Nor was I as knowledgable when I was 20 or 25. We all live and learn. I doubt that there is a single forum member here that can honestly say that they have always done exactly everything right with every pet they have ever owned. We have all learned from our mistakes and moved on to make others. That is life.

If the OP came here, asked for advice and then told us we were all crazy and we should go to he--, well, then he would be irresponsible. This young man came here, asked for some advice, read what we had to say and made responsible decisions. This sounds like someone I would like to see participate in the forum. To continue to call him irresponsible for something that happened while he was out of the country will not endear us to him. This will deprive us of someone of intelligence and a willingness to share. I say we could always use the imput of intelligent, open-minded people.

LavenderRott
August 18th, 2004, 11:21 PM
But this individual wants to start his own kennel so why would he spay?
It wouldnt make sense! :confused:

I think being that this person was not responsible enough to have them separated to begin with would make me wonder just what kind of responsibility as a breeder he would be.

I dunno, the breeding thing is throwing me off.


Actually, it makes more sense then I have heard from a lot of people lately. Since his bitch is unable to be registered, he will have her spayed. That is something a responsible dog owner/breeder does. If he wanted to be a byb or just pump out puppies to make money, then he wouldn't even have come here and asked the question.

Kudos for making the right and responsible decision!

Luba
August 18th, 2004, 11:26 PM
To each his/her own

The dog wasn't spayed, now is pregnant and that is pretty straight fwd.

I'm sure, he knew the dog could get pregnant if it wasn't spayed.