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An emerging new species . . . . the Coywolf

Rick C
August 15th, 2009, 05:22 PM
A Toronto Star article on the emerging Coywolf . . . . a result of human impact on the planet . . .

The larger, highly adaptable animals "have the wolf characteristics of pack hunting and aggression and the coyote characteristics of lack of fear of human-developed areas," says Trent University geneticist Bradley White, who's been studying the hybrids for 12 years.

We're seeing "evolution in action," he says.

But that combination of genetic material from both species has spelled trouble for farmers, who are losing a growing number of livestock to predators.

They report attacks by animals that are bigger, bolder and smarter than regular coyotes. They say hunting in packs to prey on sheep and cattle in broad daylight is becoming a common behaviour.

Durham Region farmers have suffered the most damage to livestock in the province. Last year the food and agriculture ministry paid out a total compensation of $168,000 in the region for 545 dead or injured animals.

Commonly called eastern coyotes, the creatures are actually a mixture of western coyote and eastern wolf that comes from a constantly evolving gene pool, says White, chair and professor of biology in Peterborough.

Going back 100 years, deforestation, wolf control programs and changing habitat, ecosystems and prey conspired to drive down the wolf population. Meanwhile, the number of coyotes whose original range was in western North America grew, thanks to their ability to adapt and reproduce with ease. The two species started to interbreed, White explains.

"In many ways, this animal is a creation of human impact on the planet," says White.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/681632

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

chico2
August 15th, 2009, 05:30 PM
I read that this morning and although I am against killing any animal,I feel for the farmers finding their animals killed in the most horrible way.
I hope they'll find a solution:fingerscr

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Farmers know of one solution... its sad but they are protecting their livelihood.

These are prolly the odd coyote ish creatures we had here a few weeks ago, I couldn't believe how "ballsy" they were just walking around the yard:shrug:

Not fond of the over abundance of wildlife around the new house, but with some settling in I'm sure we'll get used to it.

babymomma
August 15th, 2009, 09:03 PM
My opinion may be an unpopular one. And although lOVE all animals..

I see nothing wrong with Hunting for population control. That is why I support Newfoundlands seal hunt. It is for the good of alot of things..
And Although I kinda like the little guys. I am SO glad there is a coyote hunting season here. My uncle hunts coyotes. And I support his wishes.
Now the inhumane practises I do NOT supprt. Like snaring rabbits. I call it "lazy mans hunting". Set the snare and wait for the rabbit to run in and strangle itslef.. Its just terrible. Yet nobody will boycott the thousands of people doing this but they just LOVE trying to shut down the humane practice of seal hunting.
Im sorry people, but its ILLEGAL to hunt the white coats and its ILLEGAL to hit it over the head with a club so paul mcartney can shove that argument up hisbackside. .. Wow, kinda off topic, but went into a little rant..

Id kinda like to see one of these hybrids. I bet they ae beautiful

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 09:23 PM
I hear you, humane is the key and I personally see nothing humane about trapping, I had one of my childhood dogs caught in a snare at my grandmas farm, thankfully she layer down and barked her head off until my dad found her and did not pull away from it

Thing that gets to me is people crying animal rights if a farmer shoots anything that is directly after their livestock, yet if they didn't use drastic measures such as this, many of the same people would throw a fit over prices of meat and or unavailability of it when THEY want it...
"Farmers feed cities" and sometimes prey animals do die so this can be true.
And I am sure vegans or veggietarians would love to know how many smaller animals die so that their veggies wheats and grains are not eaten as well

hazelrunpack
August 15th, 2009, 09:37 PM
erykah, have you considered getting a mule or two? They're smart, savvy, and can protect the horses or other livestock from coyotes and/or wolves and I'd venture from 'coywolves', too. :o Our neighbor's mules will stand still, looking vulnerable till a coyote or wolf gets too close, then come out kicking and stomping. The canids don't stick around very long once the mules get riled. :shrug:

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 10:01 PM
I personally am not losing any livestock and we have considered getting a mule when the horses come back home but... It's not safe for our dogs to have an animal like a mule around and many of the cattle and goat farmers don't have them here for the same reason as the do have herding dogs working the stock ,llamas too are apparently good to javearound bit I don't know many serious cattle farmers who would even consider it.

hazelrunpack
August 15th, 2009, 10:04 PM
Think your dogs would try to get in with the mules? You're right--that could be a problem unless there's some way to dog-proof the enclosures. :shrug:

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 10:28 PM
The dogs always went in with the horses, for some reason horse poop is a delacacy??? and not to mention the funnest stuff in the world to roll in *rolls eyes*
The only way to dog proof the enclosure here would be chain link fence and well, to me it seems odd to fence the dogs out of their own property right?

Magicwildwolf69
August 15th, 2009, 10:35 PM
well goes to show nature does find a way sometimes to get around problems. it is a really pretty animal from the pic i saw. so sad that we have to control wildlife. sometimes i know its just cause of the way we live. just wish we could all live in harmony.

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 10:37 PM
agreed, it would be nice if we could all live at peace, but definately a really pretty animal

erykah1310
August 15th, 2009, 10:46 PM
"Humans are to blame for making monsters of them," he says. Coyotes are attracted by pet food and garbage left lying around in urban areas, and deadstock on farms.

I agree here, however not all coyotes are in yards because of garbage ect ( take our place for example no one lives here most of the week so there is nothing laying around... But Deadstock is DEFINITELY something that should have tougher rules, as it causes so many problems, more so than just attracting scavengers to the area.
Bury them!

ownedbycats
August 16th, 2009, 07:46 PM
There was an odd incident in Sarnia, Ontario last week, a newspaper deliverer was delivering a paper. He got out of his car, when he returned there was a coyote between him and the vehicle. He turned around aand there wre two more behind him! he rushed the lone one and startled it enough to make it out of the way and got back in the car. Surprised me a bit, didn't think coyotes did that, but a cross with wolves might explain the circling a human.

NoahGrey
August 16th, 2009, 08:18 PM
My opinion may be an unpopular one. And although lOVE all animals..

I see nothing wrong with Hunting for population control. That is why I support Newfoundlands seal hunt. It is for the good of alot of things..
And Although I kinda like the little guys. I am SO glad there is a coyote hunting season here. My uncle hunts coyotes. And I support his wishes.
Now the inhumane practises I do NOT supprt. Like snaring rabbits. I call it "lazy mans hunting". Set the snare and wait for the rabbit to run in and strangle itslef.. Its just terrible. Yet nobody will boycott the thousands of people doing this but they just LOVE trying to shut down the humane practice of seal hunting.
Im sorry people, but its ILLEGAL to hunt the white coats and its ILLEGAL to hit it over the head with a club so paul mcartney can shove that argument up hisbackside. .. Wow, kinda off topic, but went into a little rant..

Id kinda like to see one of these hybrids. I bet they ae beautiful

Hunting for popuation control is a joke. it's called the ecosystem. Everything balances itself out. Also, you support the Seal hunt, then even though you say that you don't like inhumane acts...but you support the seal hunt? Contridciting youself there.

By supporting the hunt, for whatever reason, supporting the hunt in general, is supporting the clubbing.

And because it is not illegal that makes it ok to be beaten over the head.

ACO22

babymomma
August 16th, 2009, 08:19 PM
There was an odd incident in Sarnia, Ontario last week, a newspaper deliverer was delivering a paper. He got out of his car, when he returned there was a coyote between him and the vehicle. He turned around aand there wre two more behind him! he rushed the lone one and startled it enough to make it out of the way and got back in the car. Surprised me a bit, didn't think coyotes did that, but a cross with wolves might explain the circling a human.

I would rather come face to face with a wolf then a coyote.
Ive heard from my science teacher, whome is very knowledgable about theses things taht A wolf will leave you alone unless pravoked. Unlike the coyote, who wouldnt think twice about goin gafter you for no reason.

A coyote was coming right at me and kacee down in a feild one day. If kacee hadnt scared the thing off im not sure what would have happened.:shrug:

chico2
August 17th, 2009, 07:54 AM
babymomma,I did not comment regarding the cruel act of clubbing seals,but I agree with ACO.

I have seen trigger-happy groups of"hunters",dressed in camo-outfit,coolers in tow going for a weekend of killing.
I don't think they have anything else in mind,than shooting for the fun of it.

A farmer trying to protect his animals,I can understand,but killing one Coyote,is like stepping on one ant,hoping to make a difference in the ant-population.

babymomma
August 17th, 2009, 12:52 PM
I know for a FACT that people do not club seals anymore.. Unless they are poaching or something stupid.

Why make more work for themselves while trying to make a living? It just doesnt make sense. I know many many people who work n the industry.And they do NOT club seals anymore. They go out on a boat with many many many people and not one of them uses a club. Its just not the norm anymore.

chico2
August 17th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Not to carry this old argument any further,but I know for a fact they are using a pole with a hook on the end,not any more humane.
Shooting is just out of the question,ruins the precious fur,so how do you think they kill them??
Why do you think the whole world are in uproar,every Seal-"hunting"season?

babymomma
August 17th, 2009, 03:08 PM
Not to carry this old argument any further,but I know for a fact they are using a pole with a hook on the end,not any more humane.
Shooting is just out of the question,ruins the precious fur,so how do you think they kill them??
Why do you think the whole world are in uproar,every Seal-"hunting"season?

NOt to get graphic. .but whats going to ruin the fur more? Beat the seal over the head with a pole and a hook? Or a single shot to the head? They arent exactly using an AK 47 to shoot the thing and blow its head off.

And i would like to know how you know this for a fact? Do you have friends or family working in the buisness?

ancientgirl
August 17th, 2009, 03:59 PM
And still there are people blind to the fact we are changing this planet, and not for the better.

chico2
August 17th, 2009, 04:33 PM
So true A-G:sad:
Babymomma,you and I are just not on the same wave-lenght,no I don't have any relatives or friends in this"industry",but I read a lot,watch the news,are you saying they are all lying??
Isn't the fact that only Russia and China are buying the furs,telling you something?
Also,anyone who thinks a chained up "bait-dog"being attacked by a Coyote is funny,has a lot to learn,but you are very young,lots of time to learn,that all animals should be treated with care and if they have to be killed,it should be done as humanely as possible.
This is the end of my discussion about seal-clubbing,ok!

Gail P
August 17th, 2009, 04:43 PM
Hunting for popuation control is a joke. it's called the ecosystem. Everything balances itself out.
ACO22

Are you kidding? Not after we mess up the ecosystem it doesn't. It can no longer function in the same way.

As for how bold coyotes are becoming, I was having problems with them last fall myself. We have no garbage or dead stock to attract them, however we do have live stock. They were targeting my free-ranging chickens and becoming exceptionally bold. One morning I was working outside the chicken coop setting up a pool for the geese I had just got and the dogs were all with me. They started running and I looked around the corner of the coop to see what was going on and they were running off a coyote that had been just heading down out of the bush towards the coop. That same evening I was working bent down in my garden and heard a commotion so I stood up and looked to see what was going on and there was a coyote again, this time coming right through the horses that were at the edge of the bush and going after the chickens. I yelled at it and it just paused a moment and looked at me like "Yeah, and what are you going to do?" and went back at the chickens. I opened up the back gate and loosed the dogs on it and it took off. However in the process Flurry caught himself on some barbed wire (somersaulted over a strand) and cut himself, costing me a $200 vet bill for the stitches. The next evening again a coyote was back, this time coming down out of the bush while I was teaching a riding lesson. There was myself, my student and her mom all out in the field and it just didn't care. I'm all for live and let live but if my dh had been home at the right times I would certainly have not had a problem with him taking out this/these particular coyotes. As it was I solved the problem by keeping the chickens confined to the coop rather than allowing them to free range, thus removing the temptation of an easy meal. We still have lots of coyotes around us, I can often hear them howling and yapping at night. :fingerscr they keep their distance from my chickens and ducks that have again been free ranging all summer. I make sure to lock them up safe inside before dark every night.

A farmer trying to protect his animals,I can understand,but killing one Coyote,is like stepping on one ant,hoping to make a difference in the ant-population.
In response to the coyote problem in our area last year there was an information clinic held for the farmers and other interested parties where they had a guest speaker from the MNR and others, and it was suggested that if you have a family of coyotes living on/near your property that are not targeting your livestock that you leave them alone as if you kill off that family another will only move in and it may be a worse bunch than you've already got. Conversely, if you have a nasty lot and you take them out the next bunch may be easier to get along with.

BenMax
August 17th, 2009, 04:45 PM
I really cannot comment on hunting this or that but I am an animal activist to an extent and I was invited to go to a hunt in order to come up with my own conclusions and not that of those who have not witnessed a hunting scenario. Ahhh - it did not change my mind, in fact it reinforced it! It was down right ugly.

What about going back in time and using GW pyranese (spelling sorry) or other flock security dogs? Surely the coyotes have not evolved with intelligence from back 'then'?

Gail P
August 17th, 2009, 05:03 PM
What about going back in time and using GW pyranese (spelling sorry) or other flock security dogs? Surely the coyotes have not evolved with intelligence from back 'then'?

There are several different breeds of livestock guardian dogs (LGD's) still used by farmer's today. A friend of mine has 3 Anatolian Shepherds to protect her flock of sheep and it works. There was one night (1 night!) she had the dogs shut in the barn for some reason, I'm really not sure why, but the coyotes knew and they came calling. Sometime in a period of 3 hours or so, in between when somebody was out and about the farm the coyotes drove a Scottish Blackface ewe into the page wire so that her horns got stuck and they stripped her bare, right down the the skeleton. My friend said that it looked like some kind of movie prop it was so cleaned off. This happened right across her driveway, not 50' from her front door. Now when the sheep are out on pasture the dogs are with them 24/7 and only come into the barn when the sheep do.

babymomma
August 17th, 2009, 05:15 PM
So true A-G:sad:
Babymomma,you and I are just not on the same wave-lenght,no I don't have any relatives or friends in this"industry",but I read a lot,watch the news,are you saying they are all lying??
Funny, This same media will say bad things about pittbulls.. I thought we all knew by now that the media will write anything to get ratings.

Isn't the fact that only Russia and China are buying the furs,telling you something?
Yea, if they were showed the footage from the early 1900's of baby seals gettng killed with a stick they may back out too.. And if they were being fed LIES. Like paul mcartney and whats her face were giving out.
Also,anyone who thinks a chained up "bait-dog"being attacked by a Coyote is funny
The dog wasnt chained up. But I do beleive that dogs that are BRED for a JOB and has the equipment to defend itself and outrun the thingsshould be allowed to do it. Just like those breeds of dogs that are BRED to hunt wild Hogs should be allowed to do their job. Or the beagles bred for finding rabbits should be allowed to do the JOB they were BRED to do.. The death rate of the lacy dogs is very low. They had traits bred into them to do their Job.
,has a lot to learn,but you are very young,lots of time to learn,that all animals should be treated with care and if they have to be killed,it should be done as humanely as possible.
I am learning.. The differance is i am learning BOTH sides of the story.. I EDUCATED myself to form my opinion.. Im not going to read a newspaper written by someboody with no actual experiance on the subject, just a bit of info that may or may not be true, and automatically assume he or she is right. Its the same thing with ACO22, he or she thinks that reputable breeders are from hell and contribute to the pet overpopulation.. She see's one side and wont open her mind to learn about the reputable breesers before forming her opinion (Sorry ACO, for using you as an example. BUt i remember your comments about reputable breeders:o)
This is the end of my discussion about seal-clubbing,ok!

Thats fine.. Its not the end for me..

aslan
August 17th, 2009, 06:32 PM
NOt to get graphic. .but whats going to ruin the fur more? Beat the seal over the head with a pole and a hook? Or a single shot to the head? They arent exactly using an AK 47 to shoot the thing and blow its head off.

And i would like to know how you know this for a fact? Do you have friends or family working in the buisness?

Well Chico2 may not have relatives in the business, but I DO. You can believe what you want to BM but they DO still club them, or spike them in the skull. Maybe next season go out and see what really goes on instead of what they show on tv or hearsay from someone else. I have seen the family video's first hand, hmmmm for every 1 or 2 guns used, there are 20-30 spikes. Bullets cost money.

NoahGrey
August 17th, 2009, 07:06 PM
Also, Coyotes do not go after people..Wolfs and coyotes are shy animals and stay away from humans when they can. If a wolf or a coyote attack humans, odds are it is sick or injured.

ACO22

BenMax
August 17th, 2009, 08:35 PM
:sorry: The slaughtering of the seals is about vanity. That is the main reason why it is done. They can say that the rest of the carcass is used for something (probably another chinese remedy for a larger shlong or something ridiculous like that) but this is to appease those or clear any wrong doing. If there were no money to be made, then this would not be an issue on how it is done. They infact use the picks to not ruin the main body of the pelt.

I say the only way to humanly secure the flock and maintain the coyotes is using dogs that are bred to protect the flock. Why not? To me, I think that this not only preserves the breeds but the flock is safe, and the coyotes get to live in a land that we have removed from them as a safe haven. That's my :2cents:

aslan
August 17th, 2009, 08:55 PM
I agree totally Benmax, we as humans have created this situation by taking over the poor animals habitats and killing off their food supply. Then when they have the nerve to try and survive(sarcasm), we get all mad and kill them. We slaughter animals for coats, not out of neccessity, but looks. Elephants for the tusks, gorilla's so some idiot can have a gorilla hand ashtray, etc, etc. Mother nature is just doing what was inevitable creating the Coywolf.

As for hunting season, i still wouldn't like it but atleast if it was a little more sportsman like and went back to using arrows, not high powered rifles it would be a little more digestable. Seriously when was the last time you saw a deer wearing a bullet proof vest.

BenMax
August 17th, 2009, 09:01 PM
Absolutely Aslan. And not only that, it's so darn easy to pull out a gun and kill them without looking into a new resolution to this ever increasing problem. And we are the superior beings....I sometimes really wonder about that.

They are entitled to try and survive. I am certain that they do not mass kill either which just proves that they take only what they need. We just take it all.

aslan
August 17th, 2009, 09:04 PM
we were watching a show the other day on the mass slaughter of animals to the point of extinction. Can't remember what the one animal was at the moment but it went from being in most of Africa in the numbers of the millions and is now down to are you ready for it. 2,500. Just boggles my mind how man can think that this is ok, and that we have the right to just take and take and take.

NoahGrey
August 17th, 2009, 09:19 PM
I find it said that we have become a society that turns our back on other species. We are suppose to be the most compassionate, but are the least...all due to greed, power and superior.

I also find it sad that we as a society protest and rise in anger in alterring a wild specie, when we do it everyday to your domestic animals, for our own self needs.

Remember, society domesicated the dog.

ACO22

aslan
August 17th, 2009, 09:23 PM
if you think about it ACO we do it to our own species all the time, the jews, iraq, the blacks, and so on. If something is in our way, we kill it, period.bbbbbbbb

ancientgirl
August 18th, 2009, 02:47 AM
Every man for himself, literally. :sad:

bluestar
August 18th, 2009, 09:08 AM
I generally stay out of these kind of discussions and seriously doubt I will sway anyone's opinion here, but I will lend some support to BM although I would suggest to her that if you do decide to debate anything on a public forum to try to keep things as emotionless as possible and not to take anything said against you to heart as people will always react irrationally on public forums.

Why do you think the whole world are in uproar,every Seal-"hunting"season?

The world is in an uproar every hunting season because some celebrities decided to use their fame to sway public opinion because they take issue with an industry that hunts an animal that is cute and cuddly in their eyes. These same people are not as adamant about other forms of life that are cruelly slaughtered like a chicken or cow. There are things that are far worse in this world that these people could focus their attention on, but nothing creates a more poignant image than a pair of large baby seal eyes. They may say they are against all forms of animal cruelty, but they do not actively and publically berate those industries because the images do not have as great an impact on the public.

The only good that has come from their involvement is at least it has created enough outcry to change the hunting practices in the industry and to force the government to regulate the industry and focus on ensuring that the seal population is not threatened which is the most important factor in any industry that uses natural resources, be it fishing, hunting or logging.

There will always be fools in any industry that do things that are not legal nor morally right (generally when a camera is placed in their face and cash handed over), but it is up to the government to monitor the industry and enforce the laws so that these things do not happen. But painting every person involved in the industry with the same brush makes no sense. Just because you see one person doing something illegal does not mean everyone involved in the industry does. Any fool that is out there risking their life to look good for the camera deserves anything that happens to them while on the ice. Clambering over the ice and taking their life into their hands to club a seal is the most idiotic thing a person can do.

The seal fishery is a minute industry that really impacts a small minority of people. It is only used as supplement for most people during the offseason. Yet people treat it as if it were a multi-billion dollar industry that is destroying people's lives and the planet. This is hardly big tobacco or oil, yet has more public outcry. As long as it is done with a focus on conservation and a market exists, I personally believe there is nothing wrong with allowing it to continue. Were that market to disappear, then there is nothing wrong with closing it down, or keeping a smaller food fishery open, but the industry itself is not an issue as long as it is done properly. A few images of a few people behaving improperly certainly does not mean everyone is.

BenMax
August 18th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Bluestar - I hope you are not implying that anyone in this thread has acted out irrationally. If so, I don't see it.

Also, it is the mannerism by which these seals are killed which is the most distrubing. If celebraties want to take up this cause why not? They take up other causes such as diseases, promoting fundraising for the less priviledged or the homeless. Whatever their passion is, they speak. I don't know why this area should be exempt from them discussing and promoting their concerns, interest or promoting public awareness.

Everyone has somesort of passion. Passion is emotional and that's just the way it is.

In rescue, I fundraise. I am passionate about domestic animals. I am not going to make excuses for this emotional rollar coaster. I own it. I also am working on some important work about gas chambers in this country. It's ugly and I will speak of it. I also am involved in stopping puppymills and the selling of animals in petstores. The truth is ugly and I will educate, scream, kick and bite if I have to. It's my passion. I will educate, I will expose the nasty truth. I am also challenged quite frequently and told that there are more important 'human' issues and interests. When fundraising I have dealt with hostility because 'humans' are suffering. Should I cease my efforts and ignore my passion? Not on your life.

There is room for everyone that has a passion for whatever that is. That's our right and my passion will follow me personally to my grave.:)

aslan
August 18th, 2009, 09:44 AM
Bluestar, Babymomma has known many of us for a very long time and has many conversations with us.

As for the seal hunt, i don't give a crap who gets out of their heated limo to trudge out onto the ice to have their picture taken. I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.

An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest. Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.

BenMax
August 18th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Bluestar, Babymomma has known many of us for a very long time and has many conversations with us.

As for the seal hunt, i don't give a crap who gets out of their heated limo to trudge out onto the ice to have their picture taken. I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.

An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest. Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.

Here, here.:thumbs up (or is it hear, hear) ..either way, I agree.

bluestar
August 18th, 2009, 11:01 AM
Bluestar - I hope you are not implying that anyone in this thread has acted out irrationally. If so, I don't see it.

By irrational I mean by allowing emotion to cloud their objectivity. Staying rational allows you to consider any arguments against you not just how better to refute them, but how the argument may lend credence to your own point of view. I am not speaking of anyone specifically, I just find when people debate a topic that creates such controversy, they tend to let emotion become too overblown and refuse to even consider the other party's arguments, simply spouting their own arguments with no rebuttal. Debating to me is all about looking at it from the other person's point of view and working backwards towards your own goal.

Also, it is the mannerism by which these seals are killed which is the most distrubing.

The point in case is that the mannerism used in killing these seals has changed. A few may still continue to use these methods, but it does not equate to the fact that everyone does. This is where I would perceive irrationality, in assuming the few represent the whole. Steps have been taken in this industry to stop these methods and persecute those who commit them, yet it is assumed that everyone that particpates in the industry is still involved in them.

I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.

Unfortunately, the market still exists. I don't necessarily see the purpose in a fur industry, but it is a way of living for a few people. I do not begrudge those who make a living from it as long as it is not harmful to the seal population. Perhaps for me I view any unused parts of the seal as being returned to nature, the same way an animal dying of natural causes would.

Besides which the entire industry is not all about the pelt, there is a food industry for the seal, yet it is never differentiated. But people take issue to the killing correct, so it would stand to reason that how the seal is used is really a moot point.

An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest.

Not all animals kill simply for hunger. Animal deaths happen for other reasons, territory disputes, mating, simple survival, etc. Nature is cruel as we view it, but subscribing our morality to a force like nature makes little sense. It simply exists outside of our moral compass.

Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.

This would be a valid argument if the seals were anywhere close to being extinct. They are not, and the scale of the industry is not endagering them. If this is the case, then it should be safe to assume it shouldn't matter how they are killed as long as we are responsible in ensuring the population is not put at risk, correct? To me it appears we have one invalid argument which seems to contradict the previous arguments that it is the methods of the industry, which is also an invalid argument.

I am only saying that I agree to an extent with most people about the industry, but rationally I believe I cannot be against the industry completely if it is done responsibly. There will always be those who do not act responsibly, and we need to remain vigilant to ensure they are prosecuted.

This is all extremely off topic.

bendyfoot
August 18th, 2009, 11:46 AM
I'm not touching the seal thing, but I do find the original article interesting.

What strikes me is the "ethics" commentary that seems to be stated (or implied) in the story. It would appear that its "bad" that these animals are responsible for some deaths of livestock (although the evidence to support the claims are pretty shaky). It would also appear that it's "bad" that these animals exist in the first place.

As a biologist, I always find it curious how value statements get attached to natural phenomena, how humans tend to anthropomorphosize other species or behaviours. The fact is, evolution and the development of new species are directed by species' environments. It happens all the time, whether humans want or intend it to, or not. It's not bad or good, it just is what it is...evolution and natural selection.

BenMax
August 18th, 2009, 11:56 AM
Just to comment on the above. If you read my posts I stated that I did go to observe a hunt. I saw and I base my opinions and 'feelings' on my own observations.

aslan
August 18th, 2009, 02:54 PM
This is all extremely off topic.

you're right it is absolutely off topic. This thread is about Coywolves, not whether or not needlessly killing animals( not just seals) is ok. And if you look back at one of my responses, i commented on the coywolves.

Rick C
August 21st, 2009, 06:58 PM
As a biologist, I always find it curious how value statements get attached to natural phenomena, how humans tend to anthropomorphosize other species or behaviours. The fact is, evolution and the development of new species are directed by species' environments. It happens all the time, whether humans want or intend it to, or not. It's not bad or good, it just is what it is...evolution and natural selection.

Amen Sista

If we turn the world into a place where three headed fish can flourish, we shouldn't be surprised if three-headed fish take over.

Now, if only we could convince the people who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 4000 years ago.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

babymomma
August 22nd, 2009, 09:43 PM
The point in case is that the mannerism used in killing these seals has changed. A few may still continue to use these methods, but it does not equate to the fact that everyone does. This is where I would perceive irrationality, in assuming the few represent the whole. Steps have been taken in this industry to stop these methods and persecute those who commit them, yet it is assumed that everyone that particpates in the industry is still involved in them.

Here here to you my friend! It has changed.. Yep, alot of idiots use the wrong methods.. But those methods are ussually used by people whom dont actually make a living off of it and do it for the pure "joy of the hunt" :yuck: Ive grown up with this, literally.. Have heard the side of everystory. Talked to MANY sealers.. And have yet to find one that uses a stick to kill the animal. They all use guns.


Unfortunately, the market still exists. I don't necessarily see the purpose in a fur industry, but it is a way of living for a few people. I do not begrudge those who make a living from it as long as it is not harmful to the seal population. Perhaps for me I view any unused parts of the seal as being returned to nature, the same way an animal dying of natural causes would.
Besides which the entire industry is not all about the pelt, there is a food industry for the seal, yet it is never differentiated. But people take issue to the killing correct, so it would stand to reason that how the seal is used is really a moot point.

Alot of people here eat seal.. Its not like most of the boats go out, kill the seal, skin it and leave the rest of it out on the ice. We use all we can of the seal. Aboriginals in this provnce still use EVERY part of the seal that they can. Granted these people are few and far between (unfortunatly).



Not all animals kill simply for hunger. Animal deaths happen for other reasons, territory disputes, mating, simple survival, etc. Nature is cruel as we view it, but subscribing our morality to a force like nature makes little sense. It simply exists outside of our moral compass.

I dont understand this either.. We are animals.... We have instinct. We need to eat.. Granted we are intelligent but common, we are still animals... I dont see how cutting up a steak on your kitchen counter is much better then going out an killing a seal or a cow.. An animal had to die For YOU to cut it up and eat it. It died because YOU are putting out a demand for meat. Yea I love animals.. But im not blind... I still think that somebody who eats meat and still argues how they could NEVER hurt an animal, is a hypocrit. I know when I eat a steak that I put an animal thru great suffering. I will not deny that.


This would be a valid argument if the seals were anywhere close to being extinct. They are not, and the scale of the industry is not endagering them. If this is the case, then it should be safe to assume it shouldn't matter how they are killed as long as we are responsible in ensuring the population is not put at risk, correct? To me it appears we have one invalid argument which seems to contradict the previous arguments that it is the methods of the industry, which is also an invalid argument.

This is all extremely off topic.

They are far frm extinct. this winter we had close on to 150 seals out on the ice almost in front of our house.. People we going out and shooting them.. :shrug:

If there wasnt a sealing industry. SO SO SO many other marine wildlife would be extinct right now. Take the cod fish for example... Humans killed most of them off. Not just us, alot of the problems come from foreigners as well.. Since the sealing idndustry has gone down, the cod has gone WAY down as well.. we have the cod Moratorium in place, but they dont have a chance at repopulating because of the seals. And the fact that there greatest spawning ground is still allowed to be fished out by foreigners, mostly poachers. But thats another thread.

And because there isnt much food, I watch hundreds of dead seals roll up onto the shore each spring because of starvation. Granted some died from other reasons. But the people sent to clean up all the dead seals do studies and such.

14+kitties
August 22nd, 2009, 10:06 PM
In case anyone has forgotten what the original thread was about.

An emerging new species . . . . the Coywolf --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Toronto Star article on the emerging Coywolf . . . . a result of human impact on the planet . . .

The larger, highly adaptable animals "have the wolf characteristics of pack hunting and aggression and the coyote characteristics of lack of fear of human-developed areas," says Trent University geneticist Bradley White, who's been studying the hybrids for 12 years.

We're seeing "evolution in action," he says.

But that combination of genetic material from both species has spelled trouble for farmers, who are losing a growing number of livestock to predators.

They report attacks by animals that are bigger, bolder and smarter than regular coyotes. They say hunting in packs to prey on sheep and cattle in broad daylight is becoming a common behaviour.

Durham Region farmers have suffered the most damage to livestock in the province. Last year the food and agriculture ministry paid out a total compensation of $168,000 in the region for 545 dead or injured animals.

Commonly called eastern coyotes, the creatures are actually a mixture of western coyote and eastern wolf that comes from a constantly evolving gene pool, says White, chair and professor of biology in Peterborough.

Going back 100 years, deforestation, wolf control programs and changing habitat, ecosystems and prey conspired to drive down the wolf population. Meanwhile, the number of coyotes whose original range was in western North America grew, thanks to their ability to adapt and reproduce with ease. The two species started to interbreed, White explains.

"In many ways, this animal is a creation of human impact on the planet," says White.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/681632

chico2
August 23rd, 2009, 08:19 AM
14+,yes you are right:thumbs up

bendyfoot
August 24th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Now, if only we could convince the people who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 4000 years ago.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

:laughing::laughing::laughing: I worked in the Canadian Museum of Nature for some time, they have a marvelous fossil collection on display. You wouldn't beleive how many times I'd be holding a 68+million year-old hadrosaur bone when someone would say, "you know what theory of extinction I like? The one where the flood came and destroyed all the dinosaurs...they were too heavy to swim so they died. :laughing:" Um, yeah. Uh huh. Those people were pretty much lost causes when it came to educating them, but I DID try...:rolleyes: