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Zoe update

dogcatharmony
July 28th, 2009, 11:01 AM
thanks all for the good vibes....we are still not sure what is wrong. Zoe's fecal came back normal, no bacteria, no parasites and no worms. He checked for coccidia, said mice can pass it on to their babies and they could have passed it on when she ate them. She was clear for that too.

Vet gave her a good checkup, everything is good temp, heart lungs, eyes, inside mouth.

He said he believes that something is irritating her lower intestine, and that is what is causing the over production of mucus that I am seeing in her feces. Her abdomen is still soft, so he has ruled out any sort of blockage/foriegn object. He said that seeing she has only vomitted once, and is still passing stools, and keeping a bland diet down he doesn't believe xrays will show anything and he feels that right now her diarrhea is not a major major concern. She is hydrated and full of energy.

So he put her on 1000mg of Metronidazole a day (500mg twice a day) He said within 7 days I should see her stools firm up, if they don't totally firm up keep her on for another week. If the meds don't firm up her stools then in two weeks she has to go in for blood work. And we will go from there, he said if it comes to blood work, then x-rays and then if no answer then he may have to do a biopsy of her intestines, he said but that is getting way ahead of where we are now. Not to go worrying about major surgery just yet. He said sometimes these little mysterious things happen, and there are never any answers and they clear themselves up in a month or so.

So he said to try and get her to eat some yogurt with these pills. He said if she starts to vomit frequently, or gets super explosive diarrhea, or becomes lethargic then he wants to see her ASAP. He said not to freak out at the little bit of blood she is passing right now, that is normal with irritation. If there are any larger amounts of blood, straight to the vet.

:shrug:So that is where we are now. I don't know anything about Metronidazole, any one here have to use it before?

Thanks again for the good vibes....I was (well still am) worried.

Winston
July 28th, 2009, 11:08 AM
We have used it and noticed huge improvement within a couple of days! Winston had similiar problems...we havent had that in a long time,,

Poor girl! hope she is feeling better :thumbs up

Dr Lee
July 28th, 2009, 11:39 AM
I don't know anything about Metronidazole, any one here have to use it before?

Metronidazole, sometimes called Flagyl, is a antibiotic and antiprotozoal medication that also has some actions on inflammation (cell-mediated immunity properties). It is a common medication for diarrhea and for infections against anaerobic bacteria. It is fairly safe, however since it does cross the blood brain barrier, it can lead to some neurologic signs in some pets. In some pets I have seen agitation which will quickly subside once the medication is discontinued or reduced in dose. In other cases more serious side effects can occur (as will most medications).

If your veterinarian recommended some yogurt for reasons of probiotic bacteria, then you could also consider a dog probiotic such as Prostora (http://www.iams.com/iams/en_US/jsp/IAMS_Page.jsp?pageID=PL&productID=69) or Fortiflora (http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/CanineProductDetail.aspx?prod=244). Unfortunately there is not as much information on dog and cat probiotics as we would like. Yogurt, those with probiotics, might help or may not (some dogs have some lactointolerance). Either way, most dogs do find it tasty and can help with taking the medications. :dog:

Dog Dancer
July 28th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Sorry I didn't see the earlier thread that Zoe wasn't well. I hope everything settles down for her. Pawsitive thoughts from me and the grrrrls.

dogcatharmony
July 28th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Thank you Winston and Dog Dancer.

And thankyou Dr.Lee!

I highly doubt I will get any yogurt into her,she is a seriously picky dog. But I could get some probiotic to put in her bland diet. Funny thing, she normal will not eat rice, but she is eating it no problem now.

Someone told me cottage cheese too, I know she will eat a bit of that. Is that a good suggestion are should I scrap that idea?

I got one pill in her so far.....she refused anything i put the second pill in, she bit the peice of chicken that had both pills in it so one fell out.....now she is on to me. Can you give pills to a dog the same way you can with a cat? Put in it the side of the mouth way at the back, then hold mouth shut and stroke her throat?

And if I can only get one pill in........will that do anything??:shrug:

Dr Lee
July 28th, 2009, 12:36 PM
1) Someone told me cottage cheese too...Is that a good suggestion...?

2) Can you give pills to a dog the same way you can with a cat?

3) And if I can only get one pill in........will that do anything??:shrug:

1) yes, low fat cottage cheese is typically easy on the tummy assuming there is no problems with dairy products.

2) yes but you don't have to put bandaids on yourself afterwards :laughing:

3) Depends on the dose and the individual pet but this medication does have a wide range of efficacy so, yes low doses can be beneficial.

dogcatharmony
July 28th, 2009, 01:25 PM
:laughing:.........that is good about the bandaids.......ran out of those.

The pills are 500mgs (two 250mg pills) twice a day. She is a 68 pound dog.

I have to try different food to hide the pills in, I don't want her to stop eating the chicken/ hamburger thinking I am hiding a pill in it. I don't want to force them on her either, but she needs them, so if it comes to that well that is the way it needs to be.

AND I will be sure to let you know if I need a bandaid.........she does live with three cats..........

Dr Lee
July 28th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Yes. One pill should have therapeutic effects.

rainbow
July 28th, 2009, 02:29 PM
DCH, I would just put the pills as far back as you can in her mouth and hold it closed until she swallows. Otherwise she will be suspicious of everything you try and feed her. If she puts up a fuss try smearing something yummy on your fingers so she can smell that ....I've used canned cat food and it worked but anything enticing should do.

Good luck ...I hope she is over this soon. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

14+kitties
July 28th, 2009, 02:41 PM
Continued :goodvibes: for Zoe. Poor sweetie.
I hope she gets over this upset soon. :pray:

ScottieDog
July 28th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Sorry to hear that Zoe isn't feeling well. Hopefully, she is on the road to recovery.

I have used Pill Pockets (a meaty treat) to hide pills. When my kidney failure dog wouldn't eat anything, I did open her mouth, put the pill at the base of her tongue and blow a puff of air at her nose--it made her swallow. This was done in her final days and we had many, many pills.

My older dog was given a round of Flagyl last spring for stool with scant drops of blood and mucus. His stool sample was negative for parasites. What the vet thought caused this was ingesting large amounts of hair and passing hard hairballs in the stool. It irritated his intestine. I give some Laxatone weekly to help him pass the hair. My dog has long hair and licks his paws and the carpet. (We have addressed allergies throughout his life.) Just wanted to mention this in case Zoe has long hair. Hope she feels better.

Dee-O-Gee
July 28th, 2009, 09:46 PM
Happy to hear that Zoe is on the amends. Still gonna send :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes:'s for a speedy recovery! :thumbs up

hazelrunpack
July 29th, 2009, 12:40 AM
Metronidazole is one of our staples here, DCH. (We order it by the 500 ct :rolleyes:) We've never had a problem with side effects (knock on wood, :fingerscr, kiss a toad, etc etc :o) and it's been quite effective for the intestinal upsets the Pack seems prone to!

More :goodvibes: for continued improvement in Zoe!

growler~GateKeeper
July 29th, 2009, 01:57 AM
Just wanted to send along some more :goodvibes: for Zoe

dogcatharmony
July 29th, 2009, 08:20 AM
Thank you for the good vibes and information.

I managed to get three pills into her yesterday. The second set I just put in her mouth and wrestled her until she swallowed. Didn't think she would fight like that:wall: Then she spent the next half hour dry hacking around the house.

Of course all the commotion started a cat fight........nothing too bad but everyone hates everyone right now....lots of growling and hissing.

The yogurt was a no go, but I was talking with the pet store lady and she said to go to the pharmacy and get digestive enzymes (she just happened to have sold the last of her probiotics).

I have lactobaccillus(active acidophilus) capsules that I take. Can I give these to her?? IF so how much?

She had a small small poop, very soft yesterday......should have been more with the amount of food she has put in. But she could have gone outside when I wasn't right there.

hazelrunpack
July 29th, 2009, 08:45 AM
We use acidophilus capsules all the time, DCH. We split two of them sprinkled over 8 bowls...and even that small amount has done wonders!!!

Here's an exercise to try with Zoe. Take a small piece of tasty treat. Tell her 'open', take the treat and slide it into her mouth along the side. At first, you don't have to pry her jaws open, just slip it in there, and let her realize it's a treat. With luck, she'll start cooperating.

As she gets more comfy with having it dropped in the side of her mouth, start opening her jaw slightly and slide the treat toward the back of her throat along the inside of her mouth. If she cooperates, give her another small piece of treat to just crunch. So now she gets two treats if she cooperates.

The final step is substituting the pill for that first treat. Since you slide it through her mouth, past the tongue and into the throat, she doesn't taste it anyway. :shrug: Especially if the second treat is a yummy tasty thing. :D

Eventually, she'll start looking forward to pills because she knows she's getting a treat afterward. Depending on how quick she catches on, this might help for the metronidazole this time. But even if it doesn't, if you keep it up, next time you have to pill her, things will go much smoother. :thumbs up

ancientgirl
July 29th, 2009, 08:51 AM
Flagyl is what I had my gang on when they all had that bout of idon'tnowwhat! I helped them pretty much immediately after I gave it to them.

dogcatharmony
July 29th, 2009, 03:03 PM
well we are on pill number five and she just went poop four times in the last half hour. Heck not even a half an hour, 15 mins more like it.

Sorry for discription, first poop was semi solid (slight bit of mucus), and then it went down to last poop was just liquid coming out (mostly mucus and yellow liquid):shrug:

I feel like a moron, I called the vet and left a message, he will return it as soon as he is not busy. I know he said wait seven days, but he also said that I should see improvement.

I don't know if I am stressing her out giving her pills....or if something else is wrong. She wasn't too interested in having lunch, could be a couple different reasons for that, 1. she had too much poop in her to eat 2. she was busy playing with Dex 3.She doesn't trust what I am offering her.

It's so hard to explain, she is a super smart dog......and a whole ball of stubborn. She doesn't eat pill pockets, she doesn't eat peanut butter, she doesn't eat cheese whiz (yes i tried it even though it is icky). Her favorite treats are green milkbones (can't hide a pill in those) and cow hooves. Having to give her pills makes me crazy!!!! Why don't they make some of these meds in liquid........I do believe that it would be easier to put a suppository up her behind than give her pills too.:wall:

I have a question.....can I crush these pills up?? My mom just called and said she cooked a turkey today, I can have the bones (Zoe loves turkey broth) and some meat.

Or is this just me not being patient enough for the meds to work?

Cathy1
July 29th, 2009, 03:24 PM
I used to have problems giving pills to Jasper but a neighbour told me to take a piece of weiner and cut a little hole, put the pill in and put the piece I cut out back in and now Jasper takes his pills without a problem.

ancientgirl
July 29th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Ask the vet if you can get it in liquid. I know the flagyl I give my cats comes in liquid, much easier, and I noticed Dr. Lee said that what you are giving Zoe is the same thing as Flagyl.:shrug:

Does Zoe like cream cheese? Any other kind of cheese that is soft would work. Just mold it.

ownedbycats
July 29th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Okay, this may sound weird, but does Zoe like bananas? Our puppy was willing to take pills inserted into a small piece of ripe banana. (On the other hand, Sunshine eats cardboard so maybe not a good example.)

Tundra_Queen
July 29th, 2009, 04:28 PM
DCH, I'm sorry to hear about Zoe not feeling well.

When Tegan needs pills I wrap a slice of processed cheese areound it. Works every time. :D

I hope that zoe will get better soon and the cats will settle down.
:grouphug:

Debbie

dogcatharmony
July 29th, 2009, 07:01 PM
ha ha....turkey works. She loves it so much she only chews the first bite, then she just opens her mouth and wants you to throw it in. I took some of the dark meat (a little greasy, but oh well) wrapped up two pills and fed her some white. She got into it, gulped the two peices of dark, then I gave her some rice and a little cut up white turkey for her supper. Plus I hid the pill bottle upstairs, came down with the pills in my hand instead of the whole pill bottle.

Oopss forgot the acidophilus.....dang, will remember that for tommorrow's lunch. Vet called back and said it could be 3-4 days till I see a big improvement. That right now with the first poop being really soft, but formed is good.

Mind you she is rather cranky with Dexter. She gave him a good scare earlier, had the teeth out. I didn't like that.

growler~GateKeeper
July 29th, 2009, 07:07 PM
:laughing: yay for turkey! :D Good thinking to hide the pill bottle that way she doesn't suspect a thing.

Zoe might just be over reacting to Dexter because she's not feeling so great :shrug: I would try to separate them for at least a couple of hours a day until Zoe's poop issue clears up - give them a little break from each other :pawprint:

rainbow
July 29th, 2009, 07:08 PM
LOL ...good thing Zoe loves her turkey. :thumbs up

What if you bought some ground turkey and made her little meatballs .....do you think that would work? :shrug:

Sending lots of good wishes for continued success and hope her poops are back to normal soon. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

ancientgirl
July 29th, 2009, 07:23 PM
I agree with Growler. Maybe separate them for a bit. Zoe is bound to be a little cranky.

dogcatharmony
July 29th, 2009, 08:01 PM
:thumbs up awesome idea rainbow.....turkey meatballs.

The only thing is turkey bland enough for her diet right now? I thought it was high in fat....well depending on what meat of the turkey. Seeing I have just been cooking boiled chicken/hamburger and rice for so long (:D it's been my supper too), turkey meatballs sound absolutely wonderful.

I found a half eaten milkbone in my computer room, think she was hiding it for a rainy day. Very well could be the culprit to the extra poopies today.

And she apologized to Dexter, went and nuzzled him on the bed, but I will keep them separated when I see her being moody.:shrug:Could be she didn't want him anywhere near the kitchen because the turkey is all hers? Finally something with a bit of taste. But she got a bit moody with me just after her walk when I went to unclip her leash, she got the ears down and tucked her head down with those eyes. I gave her a big bowl of water and told her to lay down outside and cool down. I will keep her in the bedroom with me tonight and the kitties can roam the rest of the house. They won't like it, but it's the way it has to be.

rainbow
July 29th, 2009, 08:11 PM
There's a chart on this website comparing turkey with beef ....

http://southernfood.about.com/library/weekly/aa090802b.htm

dogcatharmony
July 29th, 2009, 09:05 PM
:thumbs up thankyou rainbow....off to the butcher's tomorrow for ground turkey! Meatballs....YUM

rainbow
July 29th, 2009, 11:29 PM
:thumbs up thankyou rainbow....off to the butcher's tomorrow for ground turkey! Meatballs....YUM

LOL ....don't thank me until Zoe approves. :D

dogcatharmony
July 31st, 2009, 06:34 PM
:sad:

Zoe approved of the turkey meatballs but this medication is doing absoluetly nothing. She had 7 poops this morning, first one was a huge pile of wet, all other 6 were just liquid. Just let her out again and she is on her 4 poop....all she had to eat this afternoon was two turkey meatballs and her medication.

And she is seriously cranky, last night she went at Dexter three times for nothing. And this afternoon she went at Amos.She also is panting heavy and itchy all over. I called the vet and he said to try and wait until Monday and see if the situation improves.....he still believes that this med will take care of the problem.



Tonights medication will be 4 days. She is still eating, drinking, peeing. She went on a 45 mins bike ride today, didn't want to come home (so she is not lethagic).

I can't stop thinking something is wrong.......and she is just hiding it really really well. But I do watch her like a hawk.......I don't know. I am not in a good spot right now.

Winston
July 31st, 2009, 06:49 PM
Can Zoe have rice? maybe just to help bind her up a bit? Poor thing!

ancientgirl
July 31st, 2009, 06:53 PM
Maybe she's allergic to poultry. :shrug:

dogcatharmony
July 31st, 2009, 07:07 PM
Winston she has been eating boiled chicken or hamburger with rice for almost two weeks now. Maybe a bit longer than that. I have gone through a jumbo box of rice.

She has the squirts with hamburger, with chicken/turkey, dog kibble, milkbones, even tried pork. She won't eat pumpkin, I don't want to try pepto because what if it is something that needs to get out of her system and pepto just holds it in.

I had tried different measurements of rice hopeing it would bind her up, but no.

:shrug: I honestly don't know what to think. But if Monday rolls round (knock on wood, without anything serious happening+ I am getting bloodwork done, and if my vet won't do bloodwork until next Tuesday (which would be the full two weeks of the meds) I will look at getting into another vet.

Am I the only one over here who thinks severe diarreaha for this long is not a good thing?? I know she is under Vet care, but how long before someone says, hmmmmm maybe it could be this. Sorry, just being a paranoid mommy there. I don't even know what else it could be, I don't even want to think what else it could be ..........:sad:

She is in no distress, but she obviously is not feeling good. I couldn't even imagine what her poor anus must feel like having the poops like that. I have been putting warm compresses on it (she prefers that over cold). She is even sleeping with her bum pressed up against things like the wall, the couch. And she is pushing her bum into the objects.

I honestly don't know what else to do.

Oh and checking for Parvo, is that a blood test or a fecal test. It sits in the back of my mind that he said it is running rampant all over our city........you would think he would check for that. But then I imagine a dog with parvo would be mighty sick.

Like I said, I dont know what to think

ancientgirl
July 31st, 2009, 07:27 PM
I don't think you're being paranoid. Heck, mine get one day with diarrhea and I'm already going nuts. Perhaps she's developed some sort of food allergy. Maybe a different kind of meat? Venison or rabbit perhaps.:shrug:

TeriM
July 31st, 2009, 07:48 PM
Poor Zoe :sad:. I would be worried as well if I were you.

I find that scrambled eggs with oatmeal works best for my dogs when they have an upset system. I usually fast them for about 12 hours and then try that. The eggs seem easier to digest then other proteins and the oatmeal agrees with my dogs better then the rice does :shrug:. I usually add in some plain yogurt and/or acidophilus as well but I think you said Zoe doesn't like yogurt? Feed in small portion (about 1/3 to 1/2 egg to oatmeal ratio). I would also try some pepcid ac (famotidine) for a few days to help calm some of her stomach acids.

Good luck :goodvibes:.

dogcatharmony
July 31st, 2009, 08:40 PM
Thanks TeriM, for a different suggestion. I know eggs won't go over with her but oatmeal might. Something she has never had before. I just made her a supper of plain yogurt rice and chicken, I rolled the rice in the yogurt and put lots of chicken in.....so far she is just trying to pull peices of chicken out, but she will have no choice but to eat some yogurt

Just checked her dish and most of the rice and yogurt is gone, apparently she is very hungry.

Whilch makes me think of something the vet said. He said that once the food reachs the lower intestine any thing she would need body wise has already been taken out of the food. Which is one of the reasons he is not worried. The large intestine and stomach is absorbing what she needs. But supposedly she has gained almost 8 pounds in a month, I don't believe it because she doesn't look any larger to me, but the scales said so. But then the scales also dropped two pounds and went up two pounds while she was sitting on them. I personally don't think the scales were acurate. Even so, shouldn't there be some concern with the rapid weight gain. He said she isn't overweight, according to him. She is five.......don't think she should be packing on 8 pounds in a month when she hardly ever eats.:shrug:

If i did the peptid (is that the same as pepto bismol?) how much would you give to a 68 lb dog?

TeriM
July 31st, 2009, 08:52 PM
I give one tablet twice a day with meals of the pepcid. It is different then pepto bismal though, it is just a human heartburn med that helps to calm the tummy acid. Pepto works okay but I personally have better luck with the pepcid in my dogs.

I would totally give the rice thing a rest for a few days just in case that is something her system is having some problems processsing. Chicken with the oatmeal would probably be fine. I would also use the quick oats versus the whole oats as basically in this case processed is easier for her system to digest. Same theory would apply to rice .. use minute rice instead of regular. That of course doesn't apply when feeding as a regular thing but for now you want stuff super easy to digest.

TeriM
July 31st, 2009, 08:55 PM
One other thing is if possible to limit the exercise for a few days. I know my vet has told me that if they have lots of diarhea not to exercise as all that movement makes their bowels go into overdrive.

TeriM
July 31st, 2009, 09:02 PM
I also wouldn't worry to much right now about the scale numbers. Vet scales are notoriously out of wack in my experience anyway :frustrated:. If her body is having issues anyway, she could easily be retaining some extra fluids. Do you have another vet close by that you could just pop in and put her on their scale? If things don't settle for her then I would count it as a symptom to be explored but right now the most important thing is just getting her tummy/bum better :grouphug:.

You might also want to mention giardia to your vet next week if things don't improve lots.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=739

hazelrunpack
July 31st, 2009, 10:12 PM
Giardia usually responds to metronidazole, though. :shrug:

After a week of diarrhea, we'd be inclined to have them do a blood panel, too, DCH. I don't think you're being paranoid at all! You know Zoe better than anyone else does...go with your gut!

Tundra_Queen
July 31st, 2009, 11:20 PM
Winston she has been eating boiled chicken or hamburger with rice for almost two weeks now. Maybe a bit longer than that. I have gone through a jumbo box of rice.

She has the squirts with hamburger, with chicken/turkey, dog kibble, milkbones, even tried pork. She won't eat pumpkin, I don't want to try pepto because what if it is something that needs to get out of her system and pepto just holds it in.

I had tried different measurements of rice hopeing it would bind her up, but no.

:shrug: I honestly don't know what to think. But if Monday rolls round (knock on wood, without anything serious happening+ I am getting bloodwork done, and if my vet won't do bloodwork until next Tuesday (which would be the full two weeks of the meds) I will look at getting into another vet.

Am I the only one over here who thinks severe diarreaha for this long is not a good thing?? I know she is under Vet care, but how long before someone says, hmmmmm maybe it could be this. Sorry, just being a paranoid mommy there. I don't even know what else it could be, I don't even want to think what else it could be ..........:sad:

She is in no distress, but she obviously is not feeling good. I couldn't even imagine what her poor anus must feel like having the poops like that. I have been putting warm compresses on it (she prefers that over cold). She is even sleeping with her bum pressed up against things like the wall, the couch. And she is pushing her bum into the objects.

I honestly don't know what else to do.

Oh and checking for Parvo, is that a blood test or a fecal test. It sits in the back of my mind that he said it is running rampant all over our city........you would think he would check for that. But then I imagine a dog with parvo would be mighty sick.

Like I said, I dont know what to think

I'm sorry that zoe is ill.....BUT DON'T GIVE HER PEPTO!! I heard that is toxic to dogs! We always gave our dogs Kaopectate!

Debbie

growler~GateKeeper
August 1st, 2009, 01:25 AM
Famotidine (Pepcid AC) http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/famotidine-pepcid/page1.aspx is fine


I'm sorry that zoe is ill.....BUT DON'T GIVE HER PEPTO!! I heard that is toxic to dogs! We always gave our dogs Kaopectate!

I wouldn't use Kaopectate either most especially not with cats. Katopectate has the same main ingredients as Pepto Bismol. : http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/bismuth-subsalicylate-pepto-bismol-kaopectate/page1.aspx

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=0+2008&aid=3016
Dangerous to Cats and Some Dogs
Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith

November 2003 News
Kaopectate, the over-the-counter diarrhea treatment for humans, recently has been reformulated to contain an aspirin derivative that is toxic to cats in high doses.

Kaopectate's new formula contains bismuth subsalicylate *same active ingredient as Pepto Bismol*, which may cause salicylate toxicosis in cats if they are overdosed. Previously, the product contained attapulgite, an inert clay aluminum.

The attapulgite formulation of Kaopectate caplets may still be available. According to a Pfizer Animal Health spokesman, the new formulation of all liquid forms of Kaopectate began shipping in December 2002. Reformulated caplets are scheduled to begin shipping no later than April 2004.

"For decades, veterinarians have recommended Kaopectate to treat diarrhea in cats and dogs", said Dr. Cory Langston, a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology and a member of the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents.

"This (product) was prescribed, perhaps in part, because it could do no harm, since none of the ingredients were absorbed orally. Because of this safety factor, large and frequent doses were commonly used." Dr. Langston said. "Unlike the old Kaopectate, this new formulation could result in toxicosis if you do not account for the salicylate content of the product."

Dr. Steve Hansen, a diplomate of the American Board of Veterinary Toxicology and director of the ASPCA's (American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) Animal Poison Control Center, said the range of recommended aspirin-derivative dosages that have been published for cats is 10 mg/kg every other day to 25 mg/kg every day.

A tablespoon of reformulated children's or regular-strength Kaopectate contains 130 mg aspirin equivalent, and reformulatedextra-strength Kaopectate contains 230 mg aspirin equivalent. A tablespoon of extra-strength Kaopectate given to a 5-pound cat would yield 120 mg/kg aspirin equivalent and would likely result in toxicosis, according to Dr. Hansen.

"Cats typically do not metabolize and excrete many compounds, including aspirin, efficiently, which means we are much more likely to have effects," Dr. Hansen said. Dogs that may have an allergy to aspirin should not be given the new formulation. Also, those dogs that are taking aspirin, steroids, or another non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) such as Rimadyl, EtoGesic, or Deramaxx should not be given the new formulation.

Tundra_Queen
August 1st, 2009, 03:18 AM
Famotidine (Pepcid AC) http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/famotidine-pepcid/page1.aspx is fine




I wouldn't use Kaopectate either most especially not with cats. Katopectate has the same main ingredients as Pepto Bismol. : http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/bismuth-subsalicylate-pepto-bismol-kaopectate/page1.aspx

I haven't given kaopectate to a dog in a long while. I guess it was before the new stuff. Thanks for letting me know. :)

dogcatharmony
August 2nd, 2009, 05:59 PM
Thanks TQ and Growler about the pecid thing. I wouldn't have tried it anyway, just out of fear.

But I am very very happy to say that we have had a whole day of SOLID NORMAL POOP.:crazy:

She had three of the biggest poops I have seen come out of that dog!

I got tough, I have a few extra syringes around the house for when Amos needs meds, well I sucked up yogurt and I force fed it to her. She did spit some out but a whole lot got in........one day of yogurt and we have solid poopies!!:D I also cut out the rice, I got a few sample bags of kibble and rolled a few kibbles around with the meat and drippings.

The kibble of her choice was called Canine plus.......don't know much about it but it has got to be a whole lot better than the Dog Chow that she likes to munch on once in awhile.

I am going to keep her on the meds for the full two weeks, even though she has solid poops, it took long for the med to work for whatever she had, so I just think it wise to finish the anti-botic. She is still on the cranky side, but not as much. I notice her cranky amps up when she is tired, which is about an hour after her pills. So I put everyone but her upstairs in a room and let her have a sleep.

So (knock on wood) things are looking up over here. Thanks all for your help, advice and good vibes!!

growler~GateKeeper
August 2nd, 2009, 06:20 PM
Pecid is okay for dogs & cats

Pepto is bad for dogs & cats

Very happy to hear Zoe is doing much better :thumbs up Finishing the antibiotics is a very good idea to make cetain whatever it is, is finally cleared up :pawprint:

:goodvibes: this is the end of Zoe's tummy troubles

rainbow
August 2nd, 2009, 08:16 PM
YAY for Zoe's solid poops. :highfive:

I can't remember :o ....has Zoe ever been checked for IBD or SIBO?

Tundra_Queen
August 2nd, 2009, 08:25 PM
Thanks TQ and Growler about the pecid thing. I wouldn't have tried it anyway, just out of fear.

But I am very very happy to say that we have had a whole day of SOLID NORMAL POOP.:crazy:

She had three of the biggest poops I have seen come out of that dog!

I got tough, I have a few extra syringes around the house for when Amos needs meds, well I sucked up yogurt and I force fed it to her. She did spit some out but a whole lot got in........one day of yogurt and we have solid poopies!!:D I also cut out the rice, I got a few sample bags of kibble and rolled a few kibbles around with the meat and drippings.

The kibble of her choice was called Canine plus.......don't know much about it but it has got to be a whole lot better than the Dog Chow that she likes to munch on once in awhile.

I am going to keep her on the meds for the full two weeks, even though she has solid poops, it took long for the med to work for whatever she had, so I just think it wise to finish the anti-botic. She is still on the cranky side, but not as much. I notice her cranky amps up when she is tired, which is about an hour after her pills. So I put everyone but her upstairs in a room and let her have a sleep.

So (knock on wood) things are looking up over here. Thanks all for your help, advice and good vibes!!

YEAHHHHHHHH!!! *doing the happy dance* http://www.nt.net/hostagal/smileyjumpsmiley.gif
I'm so glad she is feeling better and sooooo happy for you as I know u were worried about her! I hope she keeps having good poops now and gets the rest she needs to be her old self again. :grouphug:

Debbie

hazelrunpack
August 2nd, 2009, 10:34 PM
Hurrah for Zoe! :highfive:

:goodvibes: for smooth sailing from here on out!

dogcatharmony
August 4th, 2009, 11:44 AM
:censored::censored::censored:

We are back to diarreha again!! And wicked farts.
One and a half days of good solid normal poop, and then gone just like that.

No change in what I am feeding her, still keeping it bland and easy to digest.

Rainbow, what is SIBO??

I have heard about IBD, don't know much about it or the symptoms, but I have never heard of SIBO. And how do they check for that? I see the vet on Friday so it is something to mention.

dogcatharmony
August 4th, 2009, 11:58 AM
And now I am confused.........but i think my vet may have got his intestines mixed up because he was telling me the large intestine soaked up the food.:shrug:

Maybe I heard him wrong, or maybe he mistakenly mixed them up....

arrrgghhhhh....:frustrated:

kandy
August 4th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Sorry that Zoe isn't feeling well. :(

SIBO is 'small intestine bacterial overgrowth'. The condition causes the bad bacteria to flourish in the intestine, which causes diarrhea. If the condition goes undiagnosed, it can lead to damage of the intestine which stops it's ability to properly absorb the nutrients. Corn seems to really set it off - but any food that is especially grainy can aggravate it. Grains take longer for the dog to digest, and provide the perfect environment for the bacteria to really get going. I did some research on the condition for a friend of mine whose dog was diagnosed with it.

Were you able to get anymore yogurt into her?

dogcatharmony
August 4th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Thanks Kandy.

She still gets two syringes full of plain yogurt. the syringe is 3cc's. And I sprinkle a dusting of achidophilus on her meat. She gets more of that into her because there is no smell or taste.

I was doing some reading on IBD, and it said the test was a biopsy. Well we have bloodwork scheduled for friday afternoon. The vet did say that xrays and then biopsy were the next steps if bloodwork did not come up with anything. But from my reading would an xray even be needed? Everything I read says that xrays aren't really a good dignostic tool when looking for stomach/intestine issues because some stuff just doesn't show up on xray.

Now here is an odd thing, today when she got up she was limping on her left front foot. I can see that the "knuckle" just at her dewclaw is swollen a bit. The bump is more pronounced than the one on the other foot. She lets me touch it, I checked her mobility and she shows no pain. She will put her full weight on it for awhile then she hobbles a bit. She did nothing yesterday, I have just been taking her far out back in my yard to poop. I cut down her excercise like someone suggested. She was fine when I went to bed, and she wasn't up over night.

Vet said to put some ice on it and he will have a look at it on Friday unless she goes lame in the next few days to treat it as a slight sprain.

:shrug: I can't believe her crappy luck.........

kandy
August 4th, 2009, 04:55 PM
A biopsy is used to diagnose IBD. Xrays don't do a good job of showing soft tissues - so unless he is looking for something that will show up on an xray, they aren't going to do any good. You might ask him what he'd be looking for on an xray. Normally an ultrasound is better for seeing soft tissues.

Are her antibiotics gone now? I'm wondering if the diarrhea came back after the last of the antibiotics cleared her system.

As for her foot - I'd bet she probably just stopped too quick chasing Dex or something. Have you checked her paw to make sure she doesn't have something stuck? Poor Zoe - she just never gets a break!

dogcatharmony
August 4th, 2009, 06:18 PM
no, she is still on anti-botics until friday. Which reminds me, should I get the bloodwork done on friday or should I wait for the meds to clear her system? She is scheduled for 2 pills at 10am on friday, that will be the last of the meds.

I look up dog sprains, and her foot looks just like the pics do when they show hyperextension, the one leg leans back at the dew claw, can't remember the name (campar???). There will be no walk today, or the next few days, although she is sleeping lots with the meds anyway. She probably will be a little high strung at no excercise, but oh well it is for her own good.

Now I am getting worked up about her going in for bloodwork. I know they are going to have to muzzle her.

I didn't tell the story about her last visit when I asked the vet to look for earmites. Zoe had already jumped off the table when I remembered that because Dexter came to us infested with ear mites, that I should have her ears looked at. I bent down to pick her up and put her on the table and the vet said "no, I can look at her ears down there" I started to say I would feel more comfortable with her on the table when he leaned over top of her to look in her ear. I had a split second to grab her face, I saw the "cow eye" with the side tilted head......OMG!!! What ticks me off is that they have her listed as vicious on her file..........uhhh duhhh........now bloodwork.....yeah I will be present for that, no bringing her into a room without me.

kandy
August 5th, 2009, 11:21 AM
Having her still on the antibiotics shouldn't affect the bloodwork.

That's too bad that she will have to be muzzled for the blood draw. I know Hazel absolutely hates the vet, but she just balks and refuses to move.

rainbow
August 5th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Sorry to her that Zoe has the diarrhea back again and now her foot problem too. :sad: :grouphug:

Thanks kandy for explaining SIBO. I agree about the xray ....an ultrasound would be much better.

If you want more reading material on SIBO, here are some links that I had saved ....

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2580

http://www.gsdhelp.info/gastro/sibo.html

http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/GI%20disorders/small%20intestinal%20bacterial%20overgrowth.htm


Good luck at the vet on Friday ...I hope you gt to the bottom of Zoe's problem soon. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

Dog Dancer
August 5th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Hope you get Zoe all sorted out soon. Poor puppers.

Tundra_Queen
August 5th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Aw nuts dch! I'm sorry to hear zoe is not feeling well again. Grrr poor girl. I sure hope the vet can figure out what is causing it.

I didn't know Zoe was vicious..or is it just at the vet's?

Debbie

dogcatharmony
August 6th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Thanks all, and thankyou Rainbow for those links, I am going to do some reading soon.

TQ Zoe isn't vicious, it was the one vet who marked her as vicious because she showed him teeth because he was acting like a tool. He is scared of Zoe and he shows it. He stands flat against the wall with his arms crossed, or hiding his hands behind his back. He acts very nervous around her, will not touch her unless I have a firm, and he wants a firm head lock. He sends her all the signals that he could be a potential threat. I requested that he not care for any of my animals when I bring them in. He wouldn't even look in her mouth or check her eyes and ears when we would go for our yearly health check up. He wouldn't look at her cracked tooth either.

The senior vet (he is great) doesn't even give her time to think about what he is doing. He talks to her the whole time, calling her by name, He shows no fear what so ever, he is thourogh and skilled. And Zoe loves the new lady vet, I still crack up when Zoe gave her kisses after she expressed Zoe's anal glands.

We have two more doses of pills left. Zoe had a walnut of a poop yesterday, took her 4 minutes to get it out and she was in some pain. But before that and after that she had more diarehha. So tomorrow is bloodwork day.......keep your fingers crossed for me!!

Love4himies
August 6th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Awww, poor Zoe :grouphug:

:goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes: for her.

rainbow
August 6th, 2009, 02:38 PM
Awww, big hugs to both you and Zoe. :grouphug:

Can you request to see the senior or lady vet that Zoe likes? :fingerscr

Good luck tomorrow and I hope you get to the bottom of Zoe's problem. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

hazelrunpack
August 6th, 2009, 08:38 PM
:fingerscr :goodvibes: :fingerscr :goodvibes: :fingerscr

Hope the bloodwork gives you some definitive results!!

growler~GateKeeper
August 7th, 2009, 12:26 AM
Sending along some :goodvibes: :goodvibes: for the bloodwork

You should have no problem requesting which vet sees Zoe, as most multi doctor practises understand that some animals & people do better with certain vets, or just pick a day when your fave vet is working :)

If the new vet is scared of a dog showing teeth, he's not gonna last too long in that field, most dogs are scared at the vets & will show their teeth :shrug:

I had a great lady vet for :rip: :dog: Cally (Dal x Lab) who was never bothered by his growling at her whenever she needed to look at his feet, give a shot or tend to any injury. I also always had a hand on his snout & a muzzle in my pocket just incase, and she had lots of cookies in her pocket. :D Cally was a fear/reactionary snapper but never bit anyone & was never labeled as vicious

Shaykeija
August 7th, 2009, 08:55 AM
Have you tried baked potato yet? Some times when my dogs get the poops, and they will not eat pumpkin, we give them the potato. The starch seems to help bind the poop pretty well.

rainbow
August 7th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Just sending more :pray: :fingerscr :goodvibes: for you and Zoe today. :grouphug:

dogcatharmony
August 10th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Zoe's bloodwork was cancelled on Friday, she was a hell hound. Two vets and three vet techs plus me could not get her in the back room. She was seriously freaking out. Vet said no more stress, to take her home and relax. She obviously doesn't have "energy" issues.

They gave me a muzzle to bring her in with, muzzle her at home and bring her in tomorrow at 2.

Sad thing is that Saturday and Sunday she had great poops, solid, good size. Then late Sunday night it when straight back to liquid, super liquid, there is nothing to pick up. I havent' slept yet because she is needing to go out constantly. Then she vomitted twice today, put it in a baggie to take to the vets.........it looks like a lot of hair.:shrug: mixed with black balls (that are solid) and some food from the night before.

I am so worried and wrung out from waiting to find out what is wrong with her. I can't wait for tomorrow at 2.....

ancientgirl
August 10th, 2009, 07:49 PM
I can imagine how you feel. The worst part is you don't know how to help her. Hopefully she'll be calmer and they can get a blood sample.

MadeleineI
August 10th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Any quality raw meat and bones will bring up any cat or dog's immune system making it possible to fight off any disease state. Try to avoid factory farmed animals, too. Holistic vets find that on a raw diet, chronic disease melts away. Put the pet back on commercial pet food and back it comes.

edwina
August 10th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Couldnt they gas her slightly ? :shrug:
Gabby was too stressed to get blood work last week at the vet, and they gave her some gas so they could take blood and give her shots. :sleepy:
:cat:

14+kitties
August 10th, 2009, 09:34 PM
:grouphug:Sending lots of :fingerscr:goodvibes::pray: for Zoe tomorrow. Poor sweetie. And lots and lots of :grouphug::grouphug: for you!

growler~GateKeeper
August 11th, 2009, 03:17 AM
I think the previous visit with the other vet :rolleyes: might have something to do with the reaction Zoe was showing.

Since she reacted that strongly against just going into the room why not try to take a sample in the waiting area or out in the parking lot where she is calmer.

Maybe next time also ask if the vet can take the white lab coat off - that sets alot of cats & dogs off it's commonly called "White Coat Syndrome" - before Zoe sees him & walk into the room together. My homeopath vet doesn't wear a lab coat - everyone's much calmer :D

:goodvibes: for the visit & the test results :goodvibes:

dogcatharmony
August 11th, 2009, 07:26 AM
Thanks everyone, I sure do need the vibes.

Growler, my vet doesn't wear a lab coat either, he wears different coloured "scrub" tops (like the doctors and nurses wear) and normal pants.

I think she can smell things in that room at the back. That is where they keep the animals after their surgeries, plus you have to walk through the main surgery room. She walked part way down the hallway, that didn't help either it is a small hallway, and then she reared like a horse and the teeth came out.

Edwina, they couldn't gas her because no one could get near her. I was even surprised at how quick she was to turn and snap one way and then turn and snap the other. 70 pounds of scared, ticked off dog......the vet just let her leash go and she bolted straight to the front door and was pressed up against it. I brought her straight out to the truck, and then went back in to speak with the vet.

I wonder if they have a back door that I can bring her in? I have no problem putting the muzzle on, she don't like it, paws at it and gets all head flippy, but if I could muzzle her, walk in a back door closer to that room.....instead of walking throught the entire clinic.

I will call when they open and ask. I just have to remember to keep myself calm....don't want her picking up nervous vibes from me. Hard not to, that scene was quite embarrasing and scary.

Love4himies
August 11th, 2009, 07:51 AM
Awwww, poor Zoe. :grouphug: Can they not make a house call to do this?

ancientgirl
August 11th, 2009, 07:52 AM
I don't know how this would turn up on blood tests, but Vlad gets really stressed when I take him in, so the vet has me give him some Xanax before. It's not much, but just enough to keep him calm. He still a little nasty, but not so much the vet can't examine him.:shrug:

kandy
August 11th, 2009, 10:56 AM
Poor Zoe! Hope that young vet wasn't there or she'll have another black mark in her file.

Hazel freaks out at all vets - even if she's never been to that particular one before. One vet told me that they can change the decor all they want but they can't hide that smell.

I hope you can get her in there for her bloodwork!

luckypenny
August 11th, 2009, 11:04 AM
Oh Zoe, be a good girl for mom so she can get the vets to find out what's troubling you :goodvibes:.

Dogcatharmony, do you think the vet would consider taking her blood outside of the clinic? I know of several here that do that for fearful/aggressive dogs. And I know it won't help you at this moment but, to make wearing a basket muzzle more pleasant, we've spent considerable time making positive associations with it for Penny. It takes a few weeks, then some practice every other week or so, but it does work.

rainbow
August 11th, 2009, 01:42 PM
I hope that everything is going well for you and Zoe today. :pray: :fingerscr :goodvibes:

dogcatharmony
August 11th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Well no bloodwork today either. Instead he prescribed Metoclopramide, said he would like to treat the stomach now.

We had a bit of a moment, talking about the bloodwork. He said that he doesn't feel that I should spend the money on the bloodwork right now because it could be useless. That in his opinion she isn't a "sick" dog, yes there is something wrong, but whatever it is, is not something serious. I told him that I don't look at it as wasting money (I know that is not what he meant) but I want to know if she is okay. He explained to me that right now she is not losing any weight, she is clear eyed and full of energy. There is no temp, she doesn't growl when he pushes on her abdomen. She is alert, her coat is good (he said if she was really sick, her coat would be dull, oily, smelly.....didn't know that they used the coat condition to make medical judgements that could be on the inside). She is eating, drinking, none of her normal habits are off. She just has something funky going on.

He said that if by the end of August she is still having total diarreha then we will definitly do bloodwork. She has had four solid stools since starting the Metronidazole.......so something is upset in her digestive system. Now to try the Meroclopramide and see if it is the stomach end of things.

:shrug: I hate hate hate the waiting game.....................:frustrated:

luckypenny
August 11th, 2009, 05:35 PM
Metoclopramide is used to treat reflux and heartburn. Is this what the vet thinks is Zoe's problem? It's not meant for diarrhea I don't think :shrug:? Did he explain to you why he chose this med? The FDA had issued a warning in Feb. this year linking Metoclopramide to Tardive Dyskinesia.

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm106942.htm

Tundra_Queen
August 11th, 2009, 05:50 PM
DCH, I'm so sorry to hear that zoe is still having troubles. Give her a hug from me..poor girl.

Could she have irritable bowel syndrome? Or has the vet already thought of that?

I sure wish they could figure out what is wrong. Didn't they all start after she ate that mouse?

Debbie

dogcatharmony
August 11th, 2009, 05:54 PM
ohhh great..............thanks Luckypenny.

He gave it because of the vomit sample I brought in. Zoe barfed all day yesterday. And has been walking around dry hacking today, with nothing but lots of drool. I even told him that only out of ordinary thing I have noticed is excessive panting. But he said she doesn't have a temp, so it could just be weather (finally summer has arrived) He asked when she dry hacked, and I said a little while after she eats or drinks, then you can hear her belly rumbling and she hacks.

This is the one odd thing, when she vomitted yesterday she barfed out a mushroom. She snarfed two when i was making spagetti sauce on FRIDAY. It fell on the floor and she ate it, and then barfed it out MONDAY, the other one came out of her back end on MONDAY morning. That wasn't in the sample I brought today. The one I brought had hard little black balls, lots of hair and stomach gunk.

So vet went to tummy upset.

ancientgirl
August 11th, 2009, 06:37 PM
I'm not saying anything here against your vet, so I hope you don't take it like I am, but I don't get why he wouldn't just do bloodwork to ascertain once and for all what is bothering her. Instead of having to have her be like this until the end of the month.

Oh, and about the mushrooms. I've read in a couple of places mushrooms are not good for cats to eat, so you might want to make sure it's okay for dogs.

The good thing is at least she's acting normal.

dogcatharmony
August 11th, 2009, 06:48 PM
Thanks AG, as for the mushrooms, I am not really concerned, that happened far after. It has been a month now (coming close to) of diarreha. It happened after eating baby mice. I went and looked at pics of newborn mice and moles on the internet, it was definetly baby mice she ingested. But the mushrooms coming out three days later.......well that has me concerned.

Anyways, I got an email from a friend, to go see the vet she does. Not that money is an issue, but she said that they take payment plans and I could get her xray and bloodwork done together and not worry about having to make the payment full right then. The xray, well that is beside the fact....I WANT to know about her digestive problem. I am going to call this vet tomorrow for an appt. nothing wrong with a second opinion.

I know she doesn't appear sick, and I adore the vet I am going to now, been over 20 years and he is super. But I need to know what is going on. I know she is eating, and drinking and doing her normal things, but diarreaha for that long......well I know my doctor would have checked into things by now.

Sorry I am just super super frustrated right now......and don't know what to think. He was super confident the Metronidazole would work......no......now move on to stomach. My head is seriously spinning......

14+kitties
August 11th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Yep, time for a second opinion. You are perfectly within your right to have one. Poor Zoe. I hope things get better soon. :goodvibes:

ancientgirl
August 11th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Anyways, I got an email from a friend, to go see the vet she does. Not that money is an issue, but she said that they take payment plans and I could get her xray and bloodwork done together and not worry about having to make the payment full right then. The xray, well that is beside the fact....I WANT to know about her digestive problem. I am going to call this vet tomorrow for an appt. nothing wrong with a second opinion.

I know she doesn't appear sick, and I adore the vet I am going to now, been over 20 years and he is super. But I need to know what is going on. I know she is eating, and drinking and doing her normal things, but diarreaha for that long......well I know my doctor would have checked into things by now.

Sorry I am just super super frustrated right now......and don't know what to think. He was super confident the Metronidazole would work......no......now move on to stomach. My head is seriously spinning......

You have every right to be frustrated. But you also have the right to know what's wrong with her now and not have to wait and see.

It can't be pleasant for her to be vomiting and have diarreah for so long. I know if this were happening to a person, any good doctor would have ordered blood work.

luckypenny
August 11th, 2009, 07:20 PM
Reading back on this thread brings several things to mind. Giardia and tapeworm are two of them. Lucky had Giardia when he first came to us (bloody stools and vomiting) and Metronidozole did not help him. Only Panacur was successful in ridding him of the parasite. Penny had caught and eaten mice in the past :yuck: which resulted in tapeworm. We didn't notice any symptoms until some time later (Drontal Plus being the drug used for treatment). Fecal samples do not always test positive for intestinal parasites...I remember having two or three done on Lucky before he tested positive for Giardia. I'd think about having a repeat test done specifying you want it done for Giardia too.

...Even so, shouldn't there be some concern with the rapid weight gain. He said she isn't overweight, according to him. She is five.......don't think she should be packing on 8 pounds in a month when she hardly ever eats.:shrug:

If the same scale was used only a month previous, chances are it's pretty accurate in measuring the weight gain. Eight pounds, nor six even, is not normal within a month. You mention Zoe being "crabby" as of late. Is this more than usual? If so, then I'd definitely be wanting a blood panel done...I'm thinking perhaps to test thyroid function would be wise.

ohhh great..............thanks Luckypenny.


:o I'm sorry, I'm a little anal about having drugs prescribed without an explanation of side-effects and drug interactions and also about them being prescribed without a certain diagnosis...whether it be for our pets or for humans :shrug:.

I hope Zoe's next vet visit finds some results for you. It's no fun waiting and worrying :grouphug:.

dogcatharmony
August 12th, 2009, 12:17 AM
thank you AG, +14, and LP. I am going with the second vet option. I am calling early in the morning, and see if I can get her in ASAP. Now she hasn't pooped since Monday morning.....it is now early Wednesday morning. I don't want to mess around anymore. She means too much to me to try this and try that......and wait for an outcome.

Thankyou LP, I will read up on tapeworm and Giardia. Vet said to rule them out because of no weight loss. But I just did some reading on fecal floatation tests and how acurate they are, and how much they dont show. That is why he prescribed Metronidazole, to cover all the bases.

The crabbiness came with the meds, now that she is off them she is back to normal around the house. NO snarling, or teethies. I had company tonight, someone she has never met, the only time she growled was when he jumped up and cheered. She is back to normal with Dex.

She ate like usual, and is now asking to go to bed, not normal that I stay up this late.

growler~GateKeeper
August 12th, 2009, 12:49 AM
I think she can smell things in that room at the back. That is where they keep the animals after their surgeries, plus you have to walk through the main surgery room. She walked part way down the hallway, that didn't help either it is a small hallway, and then she reared like a horse and the teeth came out.

Why didn't they just take the blood sample in the exam room then? :confused:

I've had several vets take blood samples in the exam room with me restraining my cat/dog. Usually makes the animal less nervous unless the owner is really stressed, but then they just have the owner step out into the waiting room instead of stressing the animal more by taking them into the back.

I wonder if they have a back door that I can bring her in? I have no problem putting the muzzle on, she don't like it, paws at it and gets all head flippy, but if I could muzzle her, walk in a back door closer to that room.....instead of walking throught the entire clinic.

Any hosp/clinic that has a back door it opens into the recovery area which is where the animals are kept after surgerys so that wouldn't help.

ancientgirl
August 12th, 2009, 08:21 AM
Good luck! I hope you can get in today. :goodvibes:

kandy
August 12th, 2009, 01:21 PM
I hate it too when vets (or human doctors) just start prescribing meds with the 'lets see if this works' attitude.

How frustrating though! I hope this other vet can give you a better idea of what the problem is. In my mind, something taking over 48 hours to go through her system (the mushroom) is not a stomach problem, that's an intestinal problem. Although I'd think she'd be reluctant to eat if it was a partial blockage or something. I think I would insist on bloodwork - yes, there are things that won't show up, but at least it can rule out a whole bunch of things and it might have something that just jumps out at the vet.

Love4himies
August 12th, 2009, 01:42 PM
You are right, Kandy, if food stays in the stomach for longer than about 6 hours, there is a problem with the stomach emptying into the small intestine.

rainydayz
August 13th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Hi. I am so new here but found the site looking for answers for the exact same thing going on with my mini daschund. Yesterday I paid for the xrays and bloodworkt and today i sit starring at the phone for the call to tell me wth is wrong. It's not my reg vet that is working with us. she has been sick since last thursday.

hazelrunpack
August 13th, 2009, 12:37 PM
DCH, is there any chance that this is less related to the baby mice and possibly related to mushrooms? We've had mushrooms popping up here for months and we're starting to see effects in the dogs. According to our vet, some mushrooms can cause some pretty rough gastro-intestinal symptoms. Are you sure the mushrooms you saw came from your dinner and not from out in the yard?

rainbow
August 13th, 2009, 02:34 PM
DCH, poor you and Zoe. :grouphug:

I'm glad you are going for a second opinion and I would be insisting on bloodwork & xrays as well.

Hope you get the appt soon and good luck. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

dogcatharmony
August 26th, 2009, 08:15 AM
Sorry it has been so long for an update. Things have not been going well.

Zoe had an emergency vet appt yesterday. She passed blood and a large blood clot in her stool. Then she started puking non stop......I was waiting on hold with the vet when this started. The woman told me to bring her in.

She has lost 7 pounds in two weeks, she has been refusing food for 4 days. The diarreaha has not cleared up, the mucus in her stools is getting more and more, so much so that she has more mucus in her stools than fecal matter. She is still drinking and very active......her energy level has not gone down one bit. Both meds from the last vet did nothing, we had maybe three days of firm stools, then back to the poops.

So new vet checked all vitals, heart, lungs, eyes, mouth (everything fine). When he took her temp, which was perfect, the thermometer came out with poop on it, and it was mostly hair. He was puzzled. Zoe doesn't eat her own hair, plus the colour of the hair was not any colour of any of the pets in my place. He thinks she ate something outside....not to worry, he said it probably is not connected to her problem, seeing it has been well over a month she has had problems.

So he did his own bloodwork.......which he did in the exam room!!!! Four vials and not a peep out of Zoe. He ordered a full blood profile, and a CBC with differential (what does that mean?) Then he said she is to get 10ml of pepto bismol at least three times a day, and he gave me Tylosin (200mgs twice a day). He said he would try to have the bloodwork results to me by the end of day, if not tomorrow morning. So now I am waiting for a phone call this morning.

I gave her 5mls of pepto last night, about a half an hour later she was begging to be fed. Oh goodness......you wouldn't even believe how happy I was.

So that is where we are today. Once again I apologize for how long it has taken me to update..it has been a little much to handle over here. Spending time with her and not on the computer.

ancientgirl
August 26th, 2009, 08:45 AM
How horrible for her. I hope this new vet can give you some answers and you can figure out what's wrong with her. At least it's a good sign that not only her activity and demeanor hasn't changed, but at least she was asking for food yesterday.

Please let us know the minute you hear back from the vet. :goodvibes:for good news.

chico2
August 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM
DCH,what a terrible experience you've had:sad:hopefully you'll get some results today,find out what's wrong so that Zoe can be treated properly:pray:

dogcatharmony
August 26th, 2009, 09:30 AM
Thanks AG and Chico.

I have to say I was impressed with the new vets attitude. He said "This is something that needs serious care" It's not just an upset belly....this needs lab work and some serious looking into. He wasn't too impressed about the weight loss. Looking at her, she doesn't look like she lost weight, but then I am around her everyday. He said rapid weight loss is not something to fool around with.

I was also impressed that he picked her up and put her on the table, not me, and he also picked her up and put her on the floor, instead of letting her jump the distance. He showed absolutely no fear with her, and he didn't list her as a "caution needed when handling" And the blood work in the room.......well heck, that was more than simple. The only thing she pulled away from was the tourniquet......after that was on, she didn't budge. Even when the one vial didn't have a vaccuum and no blood was coming out, she sat there while he got a new one.

I am trying to be patient on the blood work......it is hard. Good news is that she ate some turkey for breakfast. I think I am just going to go and take her for her morning walk and see what she has for a poop. Plus I know the minute I leave the phone will ring, then I will be able to call back and not feel like I am harassing anyone.

norm258
August 26th, 2009, 11:06 AM
Not that I know as much as many here seem too, the fact that he hasn't pooped might be the empty intenstinal tract could be filling now since no diarhea or vomiting? I had a dog (Cassie, RIP) who had a similar problem with the drooling, panting, and mucus and it was indeed a sour stomach - too much acid.

I hope Zoe gets better soon --

Norm

hazelrunpack
August 26th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Can you sign up to be on that vet's patient list?! omd, he sounds wonderful!! Or does he just do emergency stuff?

:fingerscr that the Tylosin does it's job and she's turned the corner. Wonderful that she's getting her appetite back! :highfive:

dogcatharmony
August 26th, 2009, 04:59 PM
Okay just got the bloodwork results back....I am not too happy but the vet says not to worry.

The only thing high on her test was her white blood count. Vet said the high is 17.3, and Zoe is at 16.9.

But she said looking at the white cells under the microscope showed that they are trying to fight some kind of infection.:sad: I asked about the big "C" and the vet said no he doesn't believe so.

All her organs are working properly. I can pick up the full bloodwork results tomorrow, they want to add another anti-botic, amoxciallan along with the tylosin.

I told the vet that the tylosin is making her drink and pee like crazy, so he said to bring in a urine sample when I come to pick up the new prescription. They will check to make sure everything is good in that department too. And yeah....when I asked about how to collect a urine sample...well they make it sound so EASY.

so that is where we are at today.....:pray:everything is going to be alright.

growler~GateKeeper
August 26th, 2009, 08:14 PM
He ordered a full blood profile, and a CBC with differential (what does that mean?)

CBC is a complete blood count - red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, hemoglobin, mean corp volume, etc. The differential breaks down the white blood cell count into it's different components - Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophils, Basophils. That will help point the vet in the right direction as to where the infection is coming from.

Anytime the wbc is high it means the body is fighting some kind of infection.

:goodvibes: for Zoe

dogcatharmony
August 26th, 2009, 08:53 PM
Thanks Growler, I just found that out when I talked with my vet. I can pick up the full work up tomorrow, I will post it here....I don't know really what I am looking at....the vet only gave me the WBC over the phone. And he told me not to freak out when she finally poops that it probably will be black because of the pepto bismol. Thank goodness he called me back, and after hours to tell me that. She hasn't pooped yet, I only gave her two doses of pepto. One at supper because she tried to go outside and eat grass...and one yesterday that got her to eat. He said now she is eating maybe one dose a day, maybe two, one in the morning one at night, depending on if she vomits or refuses food.

ancientgirl
August 26th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Well, on the one hand it's good that so far the tests are normal. But you still don't really know what is going on with her.

I hope you find out soon.:pray::goodvibes:

14+kitties
August 26th, 2009, 11:40 PM
Sending lots of :pray:ers and :goodvibes: and :fingerscr for Zoe and :grouphug: for you. What a trial you two have been through. I hope you will soon get to the bottom of it all.

kandy
August 27th, 2009, 05:50 PM
The new vet sounds great - at least he realizes that this is something that needs to be solved with more than just a 'let's try this drug next' type of program.

Typically high white blood cells do indicate infection - but the body can mistake something else as infection and send the warriors out. That's why the vet asked for the differential on the bloodwork - so he can see the numbers on the different kinds of white blood cells.

I researched this because Hazel had a lesion show up on her TPLO leg. Long story short, she had an infection tract present - with no infection. It was caused from irritation or inflammation at the sight where she has the plate in her leg.

I hope this new vet gets Zoe well quickly - she's been sick for way too long! Since he found hair in her stool, do you think she's continuing to eat furry critters outside (the mice)?

dogcatharmony
August 27th, 2009, 07:38 PM
Couldn't get to the vet today, had myself a large panic attack and was pretty medicated all day long.

I couldn't get a urine sample, every time she squatted and I knelt she would jump up and give me the WTH do you think you are doing look. I taped a pie tin to a mop handle and will see if I can sneak it up behind her tomorrow. I only need a teaspoon:frustrated:

Bad thing is that my new vet is out of town for a week now, but I was told that another vet would handle her urine test. But she is taking all her meds, no need for pepto today, she is eating and not looking to eat grass and vomit. Only thing is it is now day two and no poop. But I am not going to stress, she didn't eat for 4 days and the pepto is probably hardening things up.......trying to do the poop dance over here for her:laughing:

oh and Kandy, he doesn't know what to make of the hair in the poop. But yesterday when I was checking the yard for critters, or critter houses.....I came across an old poop, that was still in poop form, but was complete hair. It was four links of hair!! I bagged it, there is absolutely no fecal matter present, but the hair is still woven together, it is hollow in the middle, so I imagine there was some fecal matter but it is long gone now.

Love4himies
August 27th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Hmmm, coyote and wolf poop will be full of fur due to their eating prey, but for Zoe to have fur :confused:. Could she have eaten a carcus (sp?) that is now upsetting her tummy, perhaps from too much fur/bone?

Tundra_Queen
August 28th, 2009, 12:09 AM
DCH, I'm sorry to hear that zoe still isn't completely back to her old self, but I'm glad she is feeling better!! I hope the vet can figure out what is causing her to be sick and figure out where the hair is coming from too! :grouphug:

Debbie

ancientgirl
August 28th, 2009, 07:52 AM
Didn't Zoe eat a mouse a couple of months ago?

hazelrunpack
August 28th, 2009, 08:42 AM
A mouse wouldn't leave that much hair in the stool. Something the size of a rabbit might. Or the fur stole off someone's coat :shrug: It would have to be a fairly sizable animal or object.

dogcatharmony
August 28th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Yeah Zoe ate a few mice babies, they were still pink with no hair (sorry little mice:sad:)

That is when this whole mess started. But this hair is new. I do have two fox in the area. I don't know but it possibly could be chipmunk, maybe squirrel hair?? There are moles and mice, but this is alot of hair. My neighbour has rabbits....put they usually are penned up in the barn. I may ask if any have gone missing. She has even vomitted hair up.

As for where this infection came from that she is fighting off:shrug: One of my co-workers asked me today, if she is fighting a large infection how come she doesn't have a temperature? Now I am starting to wonder. Vet said her temp was right on the button, totally normal.

But the pills are going in her, she is eating again. Had a black poop last night (thank goodness the vet told me about the black poop coming, I would have had a heart attack) It was totally solid. So she hasnt had any more pepto for a day, we shall see what kind of stool she passes tonight. See if the meds are helping on their own. I am feeding her four small meals a day, and yesterday afternoon was the last time she vomitted. And no more grass eating so far. She is very tired, but when she gets up to do something she does it with lots of energy. So I imagine that is just anti-botic tiredness.

Thanks for the support and good vibes everyone. Lets hope we kick the crap out of this, this time around.

ancientgirl
August 28th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Maybe it's something viral? Does a viral infection cause temperature?

At least she's pooping solid, so that's a good thing.

hazelrunpack
August 28th, 2009, 04:43 PM
She isn't licking her new kitty enough to get hairballs, is she? :o

dogcatharmony
August 31st, 2009, 09:59 PM
:thumbs up I didn't want to post and jinx it...but I think it is okay now.

Zoe is responding awesomely to the new med Tylosin. Her appetite is back big time. Even though I didn't think she was losing energy, well she was, now she is jumping like a wild dog, chasing dexter every moment she can, we have had two two hour walks.:D She is bright eyed and bushy tailed again!!!

She only has had three poops since starting this med, but each one is firmer than the last......and absolutely NO MUCUS!! They aren't totally solid yet, but they have form and now finally some substance to them!!! And no more blood or blood clots present.

My next door neighbour walked me out to the back of her property, the other street neighbour in behind hers has two buildings, and one flat bed loaded with garbage, and more garbage. My neighbour says there are RATS!!! Could this be the pelt coming out in Zoe's poop?? We both lodged complains with the city, and she called the police because they are dumping garbage on her property.

Zoe's new vet is back in town tomorrow, so I am going to call and ask what could a dog get if she ate a rat. I am also beginning to wonder if maybe she got bit on her front leg, the one she was limping on. There was no blood there, but maybe her skin just got scratched....because the lump on her leg has gone down with the anti-botic too, and there is NO sign of her limping anymore.

:shrug: and I thought cat were the mysterious creatures......LOL. Thanks all for the support! I think we may have gotten over the hump.....and she still has a week of anti-botics left......and she is taking every single last one of them!! I want this gone!!

ancientgirl
September 1st, 2009, 08:11 AM
I'm happy she's responding to this medication. It's a good thing you took her for a second opinion, because staying with the other vet, she may still be sick.

Her eating a rat may be a plausible explanation. I don't dislike all rats. I know many people keep them as pets, but those rats are healthy and taken care of, and disease free.

chico2
September 1st, 2009, 08:21 AM
DCH,great news for Zoe and you,would she really eat a rat:yuck:I thought only cats would catch mice and rats:confused:(my cats not included:laughing:)

Chaser
September 1st, 2009, 10:45 AM
:goodvibes: for Zoe.....glad you're seeing improvement.

I don't think Kailey would hesitate to eat a rat....and in-laws dog Heidi has eaten rabbits :sad:, so it's not that much of a stretch. Seems like a pretty plausible scenario.

dogcatharmony
September 1st, 2009, 12:38 PM
:shrug: I would like to think she wouldn't eat a rat, but after seeing her munch down those baby mice.....well anything is possible. She does have some food agression, maybe something was messing with her buried cookies or an old bone? I don't know. I know she freaked when our neighbourhood squirrel was stealing her milkbones from their hiding spot.

And I don't dislike all rats either, I wouldn't freak out if I saw one outside either, I would be ticked if it was a wild one in my house (but that is a whole other deal)

And Chico, Zoe thinks she is a cat, a 60 pound cat that can't purr. Two of mine couldn't care, but I do believe Dex and Zoe would make a fierce hunting team together.

kandy
September 1st, 2009, 04:29 PM
I'm glad she's finally feeling better!

Is there anyway to make sure she isn't eating any rats, or at least doesn't eat anymore of them? Hopefully if the neighbor is forced to clean up the trash, the rats will leave.

14+kitties
September 1st, 2009, 11:05 PM
DCH - I am so glad Zoe is feeling more like herself!! I am sending lots of :pray:ers, :fingerscr and :goodvibes: that she is over the worse of this. :thumbs up

TeriM
September 2nd, 2009, 01:58 AM
Woohoo for Zoe :thumbs up. Hope the good news continues and she is back to full steam in no time :goodvibes:.

dogcatharmony
September 2nd, 2009, 09:34 AM
thanks all! She is getting better fast......her and Dex are tearing up the house right now. Her appetite is back to normal, she ate her full supper last night. I think she knows these pills are helping her because she gives me no hassle at all to take them. She is at the point i could just put them on the floor and she would lick them up. And she is super snuggly, she will just come over and cuddle you out of the blue, tuck her nose in under your chin and give you kisses.

It has been a long two months.

chico2
September 2nd, 2009, 04:57 PM
Awww DCH,that must make you feel great,I know we are all soo happy for you and Zoe:thumbs up

dogcatharmony
September 2nd, 2009, 05:19 PM
Thanks Chico.....

It really makes you think about how much you love your furry companions. I was thinking the other day at how lucky I was to have had healthy furbutts my whole life. Only one I had sick was my kitten Peanut, but I gave her the best life she could live for a year.

I have had my full share of bumps, colds, allergies.....but never have experienced what I did with Zoe this last two months. I was afraid to open my eyes in the morning, because I didn't know what was happening with her.

This has made me really think about those who take on animals with problems, true angels they are. And it makes me love my crew even more.....my neighbour couldn't believe what I was willing to do and pay to get Zoe the help she needed. I would sell the whole works just to make sure that she (and the three others) are healthy. They give me the most in my life, I hope I do them right in their short time here on earth.:pawprint:

Love4himies
September 2nd, 2009, 07:11 PM
Wahoo for Zoe!!!!! I am so glad the new vet found a med to help her.

Rats :yuck::yuck:. Are they carriers of bacteria that can harm dogs I wonder. :shrug:

Tundra_Queen
September 3rd, 2009, 01:44 AM
DCH I am so glad Zoe is back to her ole self. Eating and runing around the house with Dex...that is so GREAT!! http://www.nt.net/hostagal/smileyjumpsmiley.gif I hope she keeps getting stronger every day!! :grouphug:

Debbie

hazelrunpack
September 3rd, 2009, 10:22 AM
Wahoo for Zoe!!!!! I am so glad the new vet found a med to help her.

Rats :yuck::yuck:. Are they carriers of bacteria that can harm dogs I wonder. :shrug:
Yes. As we've had occasion to find out :rolleyes:, rodents can carry leptospirosis, among other things.

But I'd be worried about rat poison, too. If a rat is poisoned and wanders into reach and a dog eats it or finds the carcass and eats that, the dog can get sick, too. :shrug:

I'm glad that Zoe is feeling so much better! :highfive: It's been such a long haul--what a relief, eh, DCH? :grouphug:

dogcatharmony
September 3rd, 2009, 10:41 AM
Oh it is a huge relief HRP!!!

I was worried to about rat poison, but out of everyone around me only three people don't have dogs. My two immediate neighbours and then the one two houses down, but they have kids and are friends of mine. I highly doubt anyone in the immediate vicinity would lay down poison........well I hope not. I make sure for the first trip outside in the morning I go all the way out and search the property with her.

I hope it keeps going well and the icky poopies don't come back!

hazelrunpack
September 3rd, 2009, 10:44 AM
:goodvibes: for no more icky poopies! :D

kandy
September 4th, 2009, 06:24 PM
I'm glad Zoe continues to improve. I totally understand what a relief it is to finally see them return to health. When Parker was young and had constant diarrhea, I truly thought that it was going to turn out to be some kind of fatal disease since we had just lost Lacey the previous year and they came from the same lines.

I think that alot of people, even those with pets, don't think about what kind of danger it presents when they use poison for mice or rats. Just a few weekends ago, one of my DIL's aunts brought her dog to the lake - and within minutes of being out there, the dog found a dead mouse under her parents camper. I was the only one who noticed the dog picking up something under their trailer, so I hollered. Turns out my DIL's parents, who camp with us quite often, regularly set out mouse poison and were under the impression that it would not hurt dogs if they ate a mouse that had been poisoned.

dogcatharmony
September 6th, 2009, 05:32 PM
eek Kandy that is scary!!

Just to note......Zoe is having normal poop now for three whole days!!! And she is hungry hungry hungry!!:crazy:

Love4himies
September 6th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Wahoo!!!! That is wonderful, DCH :thumbs up