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Prongs - so as to not threadjack a cute puppy thread

bendyfoot
July 8th, 2009, 01:36 PM
Postioning a prong collar incorrectly won't make it inhumane, it just won't allow the handler to deliver the intended stimulus.

I HAVE put one around my upper arm, my upper thigh and my neck...bare skin...and yanked...hard..multiple times. Harder than I have on any on my dogs. It applies pressure, it does NOT pinch, despite what the misnomer implies.

Besides, the word "yank" is inflammatory, and not an accurate description of how the prong is used. A "yank" implies a hard, prolonged tug or pull on the leash, which is NOT how a prong should be used. Sustained tension on a prong is absolutely ineffective and counter-productive. A proper correction with a prong is a brief instant of pressure, a "blink", not a "yank".

A prong collar is only one tool in a handler's toolbox, and it's not always the best tool for the particular thing you're trying to accomplish with a particular dog.

We have two in our house. One we use fairly regularly, the other seldom, and one dog never wears one.

Anyhoo, I know that some will likely never agree with me on this, so we'll have to agree to disagree. But I would be curious to know if those naysayers have ever actually tried using one or seen a demonstration of its use by a knowledgable trainer? Or are you making assumptions?

BenMax
July 8th, 2009, 01:45 PM
Thank you for opening this thread. I was about to do the same.

I personally had the misconception about the prong collar way back. A good trainer friend of mine asked me to trust him enough for me to wear the darn thing. I did. Infact, when used correctly this adds even pressure not pinch or pain. Now I tried on by upper thigh and he used it incorrectly - yep - it was not pleasant.

Also - chock collars. These as well must be worn properly and again you must have the right direction to get results without pain. The larger link chain is less invasive than the thiner ones. Again - you see people yanking the collar. Not correct. It is positioned higher and also you jerk quickly (quick release). It is the noise of the collar that is most effective, not the jolt of the collar. The motion is quick and not loonnnnnnnnng pulling motion. Again a trainer will show how to use properly.

I do not recommend puppies however using chokes or pinch collars. If you do not know how to use it properly, you risk injuring or even killing your pup.

Bendyfoot.....once again, I agree with you. I as well will no doubt not have followers in regards to using either one of these collars, but they are effective as long as you know your dog, how to use it and what type of reaction you are trying to achieve. Not all dogs are meant for these collars and not all dogs respond to them either. Personally, they are in my 'tool' box along with other types of collars or harnesses etc...

bendyfoot
July 8th, 2009, 01:49 PM
I think it's worth adding that more dogs are injured by halti-type leads and choke-chains, which are more "acceptable" types of training tools according to some...

just because something LOOKS scary doesn't mean it's a bad or cruel thing. My dog slinks away with a tucked tail and flat ears when she sees me with dog shampoo. My dog grins and yaps and bounces off the walls when she sees her prong collar...

Jim Hall
July 8th, 2009, 01:51 PM
if you have a puppy cant you train him to voice? i only have had one puppy but we trained him pretty much with voice and reward

BenMax
July 8th, 2009, 01:54 PM
if you have a puppy cant you train him to voice? i only have had one puppy but we trained him pretty much with voice and reward

Not when you are leash training. It is important to ensure that your puppy is secure and next to you. It teaches them to walk accordingly on leash. You use voice and commands at the same time. For most people, they live in high traffic areas - voice will not prevent them from being spooked and getting hit.

bendyfoot
July 8th, 2009, 01:59 PM
absolutely. Voice, praise, reward, play, for sure. These are great tools for puppies.

We would not necessarily automatically turn to a prong as our "default" type of training tool with a new puppy. But it could be an option IMO. Generally, for most types of training, a martingale-type or plain old flat collar is an inexpensive and easy-to-use training tool for puppies. Prongs are a butt-pain to get on and off. Try getting a wiggly puppy anxious for a walk to sit still while you clasp/unclasp the darn thing every time you take it out to pee!!! (you don't leave it on when not actively used). lol not very practical.

dogcatharmony
July 8th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Personally I am all for the prong collar.

Like you said Bendyfoot, it is a tool and a prong should never be left on a dog 24/7. IF you are leaving it on 24/7 well then that's a different matter, but for training purpose it's all good.

Not all dogs and not all people are good for/with a prong. Doesn't mean everyone has to like them. And those who don't should respect those who choose to use them. I am sure that not everyone would agree 100% with what you do with your animals all the time.

My own personal experience, my dog almost cracked her snout off when I tried a halti, a muzzle. The trainer I used when my dog was a puppy almost yanked my girls head off with a choke collar....yeah new trainer.

I have a dog that needs to use a prong on rare occasions now. Without it I do believe that my girl and her issues, well if she was allowed to continue how she was behaving, she probably would have had to be put down. My girl too wags her tail and goes bonkers when she sees the prong come out, it has been kept a POSITIVE training tool, good things happen too when she wears it.

TeriM
July 8th, 2009, 02:08 PM
Another prong fan here :D. Just also need to mention though that the prong needs to be fitted well for maximum safety. It does have the capacity for abuse just like any other tool but used correctly it is very humane and much safer then a halti imo. I used to use a halti on my mom's dog Sam and he would get super excited and leap around with it so I was terrified he was going to hurt his neck. Riley hated the halti and would scrape himself raw to get it off and at the very least it changed his entire personality to that of a "beaten" dog :sad:. I have graduated to a martingale mostly for Riley except for those days we go into a highly stimulating environment.

I also have found these prongs which I absolutely love, they don't have the live ring and they have a snap buckle instead of having to pinch a prong. They use the small links so they also blend easily into Riley's fur. Look further down the page to the July new products :D http://www.allk-9.com/collars-c-17.html.

bendyfoot
July 8th, 2009, 02:30 PM
Oh, a prong with a snap buckle!!!!! :lovestruck: Getting a standard one off Gracie with that wild mane of fur is just crazy-making!!!

TeriM
July 8th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Yep, they are also herm springer which is super quality :thumbs up. People should beware of some cheap knockoffs as the points of the prongs can be sharp instead of nicely rounded like the better brands.

LavenderRott
July 8th, 2009, 03:55 PM
I have prong collars in my house - even for my little pom (he has never worn it). Honestly - the dangers of chokers and halti type collars are worse then the prong, IMHO.

Chaser
July 8th, 2009, 05:01 PM
I think this debate has strayed from the original concern though.

I personally do not use prong collars, but I respect the right of other dog owners to use them responsibly.

I do not support the use of a prong, choke or any other training tool but a flat collar on a young puppy, especially one that is under four months old. There is no need.

cell
July 8th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I have prong collars in my house - even for my little pom (he has never worn it). Honestly - the dangers of chokers and halti type collars are worse then the prong, IMHO.

I read a interesting article written on this very topic, it may have been a trainer who wrote it, I can't remember. there was a group attending a training session and he was letting them familiarize themselves with different training tools. many people tried on a prong collar and he applied a correction as it should be done while it was around peoples necks. He then brought out a halti which was redesigned so a person could experience it the way a dog would and no one wanted to try it on. at all slowed down by them and end up with fur rubbed off their snout, the Halti's can be good for dogs who respond well to them but some dogs are not nose strap gouging on their eye and if they try to run at something their head gets whipped around in a whiplash movement. On the other hand some pullers walk perfectly when it is on them.

I think some dogs just respond better to different tools. Finding a effective tool is about finding a tool that when in use rarely has to actually be employed, and obviously the hope if to eventually with patience and training to not need any tools at all.

babymomma
July 8th, 2009, 06:38 PM
Prong fan here! Never used one, but would LIKE to have one for kacee. I think she would benefit from it.. I used to use a choke chain on her. NEVER again. Sometimes they dont let go right away. THAT can be scary!

lia12
July 8th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Have to say I totally agree with all the prong collar fans here. I have never hesitated using one and I also find they cause less damage than the choke or haltis.

aslan
July 8th, 2009, 07:14 PM
prong collar user here too:thumbs up i watched our little demon who was a huge puller, calm down after his first correction. We've never had to correct again. If you try and walk him without the prong he pulls but as soon as the prong goes on perfect little gentleman. At this point it isn't even shortened to fit, hangs loose on him. Yet the Qman eventually stopped being phased by it and I had to switch him to a harness with a martingale front. All depends on the dog. Halti did nothing for either and i didn't like the pulling on the head.

Rottielover
July 8th, 2009, 07:14 PM
I worked at an animal store before( non animal selling) I had a hard time understanding how the prong could not cause pain. Until a friend of mine who owned 4 rottweilers came in and told me to try it on. I thought she was nuts but did it anyways.
It gives a mild pinch and release, a lot more humane than a choke collar that the dog strangles itself with.
I have 2 rottweilers now at home and use the prong every day for training.
I agree not to be used on all dogs, all reasons, but it works well for what I need it for.
Actually depending on the breed of dog, I would say no younger than 6 months for anything but a regular collar, too dangerous.

Dee-O-Gee
July 8th, 2009, 08:06 PM
Positive Prong here too! :)

We use to have the choke MANY years ago until the lady in the pet store made me sit down in a chair and pull up a choke collar on 1 leg and the prong on the other (just above the knees). She made me pull up equally and hard on each collar with full strength. The choke left an incriminating mark not to mention my leg turned ghostly white from cutting off my circulation. The prong--only a few little chickenpox looking marks but no loss of circulation.

Bought the prong-came home and threw out the choke. :thumbs up

LavenderRott
July 8th, 2009, 08:44 PM
I do not support the use of a prong, choke or any other training tool but a flat collar on a puppy that is under four months old. There is no need.

A flat buckle collar is, for the most part, the only collar one should use on a dog that is just learning commands. The only except that I would have to that is a martingale - simply for the reason that a puppy can't slip out of a properly fitted martingale.

Once training has progressed, however, a good trainer is willing to look at ALL collars and distinguish which is best for the dog sitting in front of him. Every dog is different and while a prong may well work for one dog - it may not be the best "fit" for another.

Chaser
July 8th, 2009, 09:20 PM
A flat buckle collar is, for the most part, the only collar one should use on a dog that is just learning commands. The only except that I would have to that is a martingale - simply for the reason that a puppy can't slip out of a properly fitted martingale.

Agreed - I forgot about the martingale, and wouldn't see any harm in that on a small pup. Chase actually wore one of them at six months, and the sound the chain made seemed to remind him to mind his manners. Not to mention good luck keeping anything else on a greyhound or similar shaped pup!

kwilli
July 9th, 2009, 09:04 AM
i use the Martingale on the Berner... amazing what the sound of a chain snap did. I struggled for months on a plain collar, as i was weary of the prong or a choke, but the martingale worked for us.
That being said, for all others who walk him, I provide them the halti. He walks like a dream... but he kind of pounts :sad: as it does prevent him from his goofier antics.
Our Pyr pup we have on a harness... only cause she kept houdini-ing out of her flat collar.... and having one dog verbally trained (monty heels on command) made it much easier to train the second.
Now, if only there was a collar that would make them come on command.......:laughing:

Winston
July 9th, 2009, 09:49 AM
Well time for me to ring in hear!

I own a large dog and due to his strength this is the reason I use a prong collar. We started off with a normal collar and as Winston grew rather quickly as a pup I went from a Halti to a choke chain in a rather short period of time. The haltis was effective but I believe only in smaller dogs. The choke chain was probably the most ineffective collar I have ever used. The reason being all it does is exactly that choke the dog especially in large chested dogs who quickly learn to pull from the chest rather than the neck! One day Winston ran in the back yard to the dog at the fence and I had him on a leash with the choke chain and he snapped the choke without even noticing he had! thats how powerful he is. I replaced it and not long after he took me for a very fasted paced walk into a busy intersection one evening almost killing both of us.(he saw a dog on the other side of the street! ) .I read a bit about the prong collar and decided to buy one. Well from the moment that I put it on Winston has never really pulled me down the street or do I really have to make any form of correction usually. I beleive that the person using the prong should be using it correctly. It can be harmfull I believe if used wrong.

So yes I am a big fan of them for the right dog and the right dog and the right person using them!

I also have to say I have had a few looks from others as if my dog is vicious and others who have actually commented on me using it! but personally its what works for us!

DoubleRR
July 9th, 2009, 10:32 AM
Prongs and martingales are the only training collars I ever use. I have been against choke collars for decades--because most people use them incorrectly--even after lessons. Haltis work on a percentage of dogs, but I do not like them. Sensation harness works too, on a wild unruly adult dog. There are as many tools as training theories--it all boils down to the handler more than anything. Definitely a prong fan here.

FlamesGirl
July 11th, 2009, 03:34 PM
My new dog was tied up for the first nine months of his life and because of that, i think he has less sensitivity around his neck when it comes to pulling. When I first got him we couldn't walk with a regular flat collar (the one he primarily uses) as he would simply tow me around. I went to a corrective collar and while it helped him learn the commands to heel properly it, it still wasn't very effective if he saw a rabbit or a squirrel. I got such bad blisters I had to wear gloves to walk him.

I just made the switch to a prong collar and it's been a miracle! No gloves, no pulling, no corrections. Turns our Ranger knew what the command "heel" was, there just hadn't been enough incentive for him to listen. Now even when he sees bunnies or squirrels, he sticks close to my side. And the best part is he's listening better when he's just on his flat collar too. I've heard lots of people who used haltis or gentle leaders to stop dogs from pulling but then the dogs are twice as bad when those are removed. For me and my dog, the prong collar has definitely been a life-saver. (As a side-note, he loves the prong collar - when he hears me pick it up and he's at my side faster than when it's food time.)

lUvMyLaB<3
July 11th, 2009, 07:59 PM
Well here is my 2cents..

I This the thing is that all these things are aids, not something that should be relied on..

The Halti should not be wearing fur off ect.. As it is not a loution for pulling, it is used along with training to stop the pulling, you don't just put one on your dog to go for a walk and the dog pulls, ect, you use it while training to walk nicely.

I assume the prong is the same, I have not, nor will I use one, but it should also be used when solving the problem, not used to acutally solve the problem..

Chaser
July 11th, 2009, 08:06 PM
In relation to the original concern:

Would anyone put a prong on a puppy younger then, say, 6 months??????

Winston
July 11th, 2009, 08:22 PM
In my opinion yes but it depends on the size of the dog.

babymomma
July 11th, 2009, 08:27 PM
In my opinion yes but it depends on the size of the dog.

And the situation IMO.

pattymac
July 11th, 2009, 09:35 PM
I use one on occasion on Bayley. Of course fitted properly and I usually clip the leash to both rings. If we're going walking where there are lots of people and other on leash dogs, then it's a life saver. I'm no featherweight but by gosh if she wants she can pull me over. She is alot better now but the odd time!! Makes me very glad she has it. The other day I was taking her out to the car in just her flat collar, (going to the dog park) and 1/2 a second after I opened the house door, a rabbit dashed out from under the car. I had a good hold of her and managed to stop her. Heheh she would likely have had rabbit for her dinner if I didn't have a good hold.

LavenderRott
July 11th, 2009, 10:33 PM
In relation to the original concern:

Would anyone put a prong on a puppy younger then, say, 6 months??????

While it wouldn't be my first choice, it would depend entirely on the dog and the situation.

lia12
July 13th, 2009, 12:03 PM
I would depending on the size of a dog. Needless to say I wouldn't use one on a Chihuahua or other toy but if you have a GS, lab, Dane, etc. they can be pretty big AND strong at 4 mos. so I would use one then as I have no strength in my arms. They're a godsend for elderly or frail people and the dog learns pretty quick without a correction. I hate chokes because I also had one dog break one without noticing and I've also put one on my arm and yanked...they do hurt.