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How's this for a training technique!!

pattymac
July 3rd, 2009, 11:04 AM
"Actually recently Brad came to one of our classes and during the class I was giving Fido some water out of a bottle and another dog came up and tried to have some too. To my utter shock Fido snapped at the other dog and didn't want to share. I was actually pretty embarrassed (I mean it happened in front of Brad of course!) and couldn't believe Fido would do this. He has many many doggie friends and has never done that before. So Brad got me to give Fido the bottle again but when he started to drink I had to kind of punch him under the jaw. I did this twice and then was told I wasn't doing it hard enough so Brad showed me how. I have to say I kindof fell apart a little at this point, I couldn't believe that I had to hit my dog so hard. I understand how this works (and it did work) but I personally found it really difficult to do. I am still learning myself how to be the alpha and sometimes I find it hard."

Gotta love it!! This man is teaching other people to train dogs!!!

LavenderRott
July 3rd, 2009, 11:10 AM
Brad who?

Sorry - but my first thought is "Why doesn't someone punch this idiot in the throat next time he tries to take a drink from a water bottle?"

What barbaric techniques!

Love4himies
July 3rd, 2009, 11:19 AM
I can't believe somebody would punch their dog?????????? Isn't that abuse?

pattymac
July 3rd, 2009, 11:23 AM
Brad Pattison, fortunately he's so far only in Canada....

BenMax
July 3rd, 2009, 11:34 AM
WHAT???? Are you kidding me? I would be punching Brad where the sun will shine brightly by the time I finished with him!:mad:

So what happens if you miss and hit the dog in the throat - did he also show how to resuscitate? Am I missing something in regards to this technique? I don't get it.

LavenderRott
July 3rd, 2009, 11:37 AM
What, exactly, was his theory behind this?

Dog Dancer
July 3rd, 2009, 11:43 AM
I've seen him before, but can't say I support all of his stuff. I would not be using this technique at all. Sorry, I think he needs a punch in the head, not your dog.

Chaser
July 3rd, 2009, 11:51 AM
Oh my....I've heard lots of gossip about him but it's nice (in an odd way) to hear it confirmed first hand. I intially liked B.P.....but as I've learned more about dog training his methods just don't sit right with me. Since rescuing Kailey we've really found that brute force only makes problems worse and can damage the bond you have with your dog. We assert ourselves as leaders of the pack, but avoid any physically punitive training methods. DH-to-be subscribed to Brad's methods when our Chase was a puppy and as he's grown up I've noticed that Chase will virtually never come to DH when called. The trust just isn't there.

Mat&Murph
July 3rd, 2009, 12:01 PM
I am sorry but punching your dog in the throat while it is drinking sounds dangerous on soooo many levels. I would look for another trainer

ancientgirl
July 3rd, 2009, 12:18 PM
Did this guy actually show you by punching your dog? If someone had done that to any of my pets, I'd be writing the post in jail, for assault on that jerk.

This guys nuts.

muggsmom
July 3rd, 2009, 12:35 PM
I understand how this works (and it did work) but I personally found it really difficult to do. I am still learning myself how to be the alpha and sometimes I find it hard.


Can you please explain how this works, cause I don't understand at all.

bendyfoot
July 3rd, 2009, 12:36 PM
I don't think this is about pattymac's dog, I think(?) this is a crosspost?

BenMax
July 3rd, 2009, 12:56 PM
I think someone punching me under the jaw would make be let go of Brad's neck - I can see how that would work!:thumbs up

mollywog
July 3rd, 2009, 01:01 PM
:confused: Pattymac please clarify if these are your own words or someone else's... as a pretty regular member at Pets I would be surprised if you agree with this type of "training"....

BenMax
July 3rd, 2009, 01:03 PM
:confused: Pattymac please clarify if these are your own words or someone else's... as a pretty regular member at Pets I would be surprised if you agree with this type of "training"....

I don't think it is Pattymac's experience. She is too synical about it.

Pattymac - you forgot the quotations girlfriend!

bendyfoot
July 3rd, 2009, 01:14 PM
Pattymac - you forgot the quotations girlfriend!


:laughing:

pattymac
July 3rd, 2009, 02:34 PM
oops Sorry!! Yup it's not my dog, I did change the dog's name to protect the innocent. If Brad tried that with Bayley, well let's just say he likes to make sure everyone knows how much faster a dog is with it's mouth than a human is...well Bayley would likely prove it to him!!

Mat&Murph
July 3rd, 2009, 02:37 PM
Ohh Thank Dog it isn't you!! :laughing: But whoever this lady and her dog is, she needs to get a different trainer

pattymac
July 3rd, 2009, 02:37 PM
Normally anymore I pretty much let everything he does or spout go in one ear and out the other but this to me is crossing the line! One more note this is not a large dog but a smallish dog probably a little bigger than a cocker spaniel not some great big honkin' Rottie or Shepherd...

Mat&Murph
July 3rd, 2009, 02:38 PM
I would like to see him try it with my big guys!! :laughing:

LavenderRott
July 3rd, 2009, 02:40 PM
Normally anymore I pretty much let everything he does or spout go in one ear and out the other but this to me is crossing the line! One more note this is not a large dog but a smallish dog probably a little bigger than a cocker spaniel not some great big honkin' Rottie or Shepherd...

Any self respecting "big honkin' rottie" would return the punch with a lovely bite!

pattymac
July 3rd, 2009, 02:52 PM
Well I'd have to side with the dog on that one!! There used to be a saying that every dog deserved one bite!!

mollywog
July 3rd, 2009, 03:24 PM
Pattymac! :p phew! I knew those couldn't be your thoughts! Where did you quote that from anyways??? Do you come across this Brad guy in person often? If I did, I would be biting my tongue so hard it would be bleeding!!! :evil:

Love4himies
July 3rd, 2009, 03:28 PM
Oh phew, I was starting to wonder....

mastifflover
July 3rd, 2009, 03:40 PM
Well if he tried that with Clark he would be short a fist and if Clark missed him I surely would not. So if he misses and collapses the dogs trachea what is the quick fix for that. This guy is just way to aggressive and besides I hate the way he talks down to his clients, yes some are stupid but you do not need to be so high and mighty

lUvMyLaB<3
July 3rd, 2009, 06:22 PM
oye!! never in a million years!! I DO NOT agree with dealing with aggression with aggression. gah! hoe about encourage sharing and reward, remove the other dog a few feet and have him watch friend drink from the loved water bottle. NO THANKS! we have to learn doggy language, and they have to learn ours too, in a pack a submissive dog is not always submissive they will at times fight back, so dealing with a dog especially if you dont have a clear 'alpha' aggressivly in my mind is bad news. It CAN be done positively!

SimTripps
July 5th, 2009, 10:09 AM
People seem to forget just how physical dogs are with each other, especially in a pack environment. If one dog gets out of line, a quick bite, and possibly a pin, from another dog will happen to let the dog know that their behaviour is unacceptable.. Therefore a quick tap under the chin (doubt very much that it was a 'punch'..) sounds very tame in comparison to how dogs deal with issues amongst themselves... :)

kitona
July 5th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Seems to me the dog drinking out of it's owners waterbottle was handeling the transgresser dog as dogs do and got reprimanded for a perfectly normal reaction. That makes no sence to me what so ever. Any quick hand movement toward a dog's head area, connection or not, is likely to cause headshyness, not something I'd ever purposely instill in my dogs. And a bunch of people standing around with a bunch of dogs is not a pack but just a bunch of dogs. A pack of dogs is a family unit or bunch of dogs that live togather, usually related, like a sled team or similer. And how was it that the transgresser dog's owner allowed their dog to get close enough to the drinking dog to be snapped at? Human bad manners all around!

Shaykeija
July 5th, 2009, 01:20 PM
:frustrated: If he tried this with my dogs..well lets just say he would get neutered by my hands....creep should not be training dogs.

LavenderRott
July 5th, 2009, 01:32 PM
People seem to forget just how physical dogs are with each other, especially in a pack environment. If one dog gets out of line, a quick bite, and possibly a pin, from another dog will happen to let the dog know that their behaviour is unacceptable.. Therefore a quick tap under the chin (doubt very much that it was a 'punch'..) sounds very tame in comparison to how dogs deal with issues amongst themselves... :)

Interesting.

I have yet to convince my dog that I am another dog. He does, however, understand the concept that I am his boss. And - miraculously, I managed to do it without beating, punching or otherwise strong arming him.

Mat&Murph
July 5th, 2009, 01:46 PM
I have yet to convince my dog that I am another dog. He does, however, understand the concept that I am his boss. And - miraculously, I managed to do it without beating, punching or otherwise strong arming him.

me as well. With my guys going to reach over 200 lbs when they are done growing, I don't want to even try to stronghold them :D

cell
July 5th, 2009, 02:22 PM
It just sounds like the dog was telling the other dog to back off his water, this is not nessicarily aggression, I would not want someone I did not know comming over and getting in my face while I am drinking eaither it is not unreasonable for a dog to react in this matter in order to discipline the other dog. These situations can cause an agressive incident but it is usually just a "telling off" and should be corrected to stop escalation but not punished. Clacking your dog in the face teaches him nothing and is counter productive to bond forming, he did not snap at the owner but at the other dog who invaded his space. Infact I find hand feeding and watering is a great bonding experience as is projects the owner as the provider of a valuable resource. This experience could cause the relationship permenant damage by producing a resource and punishing the dog for accepting it.

KItona - I agree with you (I just realized you already made the same point as I did)

Chaser
July 5th, 2009, 03:02 PM
This experience could cause the relationship permenant damage by producing a resource and punishing the dog for accepting it.

Agreed. :)

Lynne_B
July 5th, 2009, 05:49 PM
First of all, the proper way to describe an under the jaw correction a la Brad is 2 fingers, moving at a 45 degree angle to the jaw (NOT 90), in a very quick movement (SPEED, not FORCE, there's a big difference). Not a punch, although to someone who doesn't know better, they could describe it that way without thinking about how inaccurate it sounds. Corrections aren't for everyone, or every dog. HOWEVER, if the dog is acting possessive of something it is not acceptable to respond the way that dog did.

Personally, my dog gets a correction, whether it's by leash, verbal, and yes, even facial, when he gets possessive over water, food, his bone, or a toy for some examples. He also gets said item taken away. Why is it important to give a strong correction you may ask? Well, I don't have kids, but there are two little girls next door who love to play with my dog, and I would hate to see anything scary or bad happen to them. Even if he growled while they picked up one of his toys could be devastating to them, and very scary. One of them does have a fear of dogs already, and used to run into the house every time we came home with Fizz (even just pulling in with the car would send her running into the house crying), but now she'll come up to him and pet him. But if he ever reacted with a growl or anything out of possessiveness, it would set her back months for being comfortable around dogs. Possessiveness is not cool and your dog needs to know that.

There are many ways to do it, the under the jaw correction is one of them. Brad may have chosen that because other corrections weren't working, or they hadn't been correcting him properly before and the ante needed to be upped. For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not. Yes to the scolding, but maybe the time out is for half an hour this time. So maybe in this case if leash corrections weren't working, he showed them an under the jaw correction. Just like at the park, maybe my dog corrects another dog with a growl and a bark first. If it happens again, he may snap or bite (without breaking skin). I've only seen him do it once, and it was when a dog jumped up at me to lick my face, and I ended up being very close to having a broken nose. And I've seen other dogs doing the same to him if he was being too rambunctious.

So, I apologize for the length of this post, but I just wanted to stress that letting a dog get away with possessiveness is really not cool, and isn't "normal dog behaviour". I know a lot of you don't believe in physical corrections, and that's ok, that's your choice. I personally think that they have their place, and aren't for every dog, or every owner. But they do have a purpose for some. There are a lot of training methods out there, some I agree with, some I don't, just like all of you. But please don't paint a trainer as an abuser when you don't know the whole story. Brad's a good guy, and I'll vouch for him any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

PS - The original quote was from someone on Brad's site who is training with someone certified under Brad. Next time you want to quote something from another site, at least post a link so that people can read the whole thing and know where it came from, and what context it was posted in.

hunnybunny
July 5th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Omg i would have been out of there so quick with quite a few choice words to say the least!!!

Rottielover
July 5th, 2009, 07:12 PM
I can tell you that kind of correction would send my male into defense mode. Brad would have never known what was coming.
There are always ways of correcting a dog, and yes some dogs need a little more of a correction, but I find that sort of technique to be a little barbaric.

lUvMyLaB<3
July 5th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Lynne, I don't think anyone has said they think possesivness is cool. I don't think anyone here allows it and thinks its cute. We all want dogs that can play and be trusted with kids.

Maybe it is the fact that I usually deal with rescue dogs, and my lab is the first non rescue I have ever had. The last thing I would ever do to a dog that already has a troubled past, no matter how possesive they are is act aggressivley with them. I will be the authority, they will know who the boss is, but it will be done in a way that they will always know that I can be trusted.

I don't want them thinking that at anytime when they are reacting with what to them is a normal doggie reaction is by punishing them and breaking trust. That dog did not know what it was doing was wrong, there is a difference between a dog that KNOWS sit and refuses getting a minor collar correction and a dog doing something that it would not have pre thought, or known was wrong and getting punched in the face for it.

There are ways of having a dog know that they are at the bottom of the totem pole without being aggressive, period. And I will always strongly say that treating a dog that is acting aggressivly with aggressivness is a recipe for trouble. Perhaps Brand knows what he is doing, but promoting these methods can cause trouble. WHat if someone at home has a large aggressive dog and the next time it acts up they hit the dog. Then what if the dog escalates it? What if it is done with the wrong energy? What if the dog does not see the person as their alpha? Could be VERY disatrous. I am sure that if I ever chose to hurt my dog she would act very submissive to me when I did it, but the fact is that she is already submissive to me and that is from always being positive and giving her time to think in each situation and a chance to do it right. I really really don't like the idea of hitting dogs, punishing dogs, pinning dogs.. When there are better more positive ways, that also help build a bond and trust. And with rescue dogs those are wayyyy more important.

Also treating a dog that is already submissive with force when it does something not acceptable can lead to all kinds of issues, mistrust, submissive peeing, head shyness, fear, ect.

Mat&Murph
July 5th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Excellent points luvmylab!!!

pattymac
July 5th, 2009, 09:34 PM
Hmm seems the whole paragraph was posted with name of dog changed.

Lynne_B
July 5th, 2009, 11:08 PM
luvmylab, I totally agree with you. The reason why I pointed out all the stuff about possessiveness is because a few of the responses sounded like it wasn't understood what kind of reaction the dog was having. Also, any time I've talked to Brad about corrections, or one of his trainers, they will tell you to get someone to show you how to do it properly before doing it. And like I said, not every dog will need a correction. Every dog, when it comes to training, is trained differently, because every dog has different personality traits and things that it likes and dislikes. A dog that has a bad past, whether it was abandoned, or neglected, or grew up in a puppy mill, or the past is just plain unknown have to be treated very carefully, because you never know how they'll react. So I guess what I'm getting at is that if you are unsure of how to train, or if you have questions about any training method you should consult a trainer or a behaviourist (or both if they do both).

SandraLM
July 6th, 2009, 01:02 AM
Makes you wonder how much is spliced out of the his tv shows if he is ths violent off camera.

lostmary
July 6th, 2009, 07:39 AM
here are many ways to do it, the under the jaw correction is one of them. Brad may have chosen that because other corrections weren't working, or they hadn't been correcting him properly before and the ante needed to be upped. For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not. Yes to the scolding, but maybe the time out is for half an hour this time.

Sorry, I'm a certified dog trainer, and you can get much better results with postive reinforcements.. If you come home and your dog has chewed his bed, you do NOT punish the dog. A dog has about a 4 sec cause and effect mental ability. If when you came home and saw the bed, (this is an example), and he was chewing on a chew toy, and you punished him, he will learn that chewing on a chew toy was wrong. He will not be able to say...OH...I chewed up my bed a few hrs ago, and now my owners are unhappy with me doing that so they will punish me. NOT>>>>> come on, use some common logic. He may know from looking at you that something has made you unhappy, the change in your face, the lifting of your shoulders, your deep intake of air, but he doesn't know that you are mad about something that happened a few hrs before. I don't mean to come across like a witch, but all I can say is that anyone can claim to be a trainer, but it takes a lot of work, studying and practice, practice, practice, with good results. I hope people don't start believing whoever this person is, and if they do, then I'm very sorry for the pets.

Mary

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=Lynne_B;797332]For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not.QUOTE]

If you verbally correct at this point - it's pointless.

I do not believe that any form of hitting or smacking is a good form of discipline. Human hands are that for feeding and stroking, not physical punishment in such a manner.

Someone in this thread put things very well. I cannot quote perfectly but in a nutshell she mentions that she cannot convince her dog that she is another canine. I think that this is one of the most enlightening things that anyone has ever said.

lUvMyLaB<3
July 6th, 2009, 08:03 AM
If I came home and saw the dog bed chewe up I would not do a scolding and a time out. I did not witness the chewing. If I came home, saw the dog bed, and punished the dog, what exactly does the dog think he is punished for? For coming to great you when you came in the door in his mind... THAT would be why next time the couch is chewed, you just created a problem...

It is like people that punish their dog for running away.. The dog takes off, you chase it, call it, hang treats, start yelling across the neighborhood wanna go for a car car ride?? Then you catch the dog and you scold it... Well, now you punished the dog for coming to you, next time good luck... No matter how mad you are, when you catch the dog you have to reward it, next time the dog will come faster...

Sorry, but if you don't witness the behavior, it is gone and over in their mind, try keeping the dog away from things you don't want chewed when you are not around in the future.

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 08:38 AM
If I came home and saw the dog bed chewe up I would not do a scolding and a time out. I did not witness the chewing. If I came home, saw the dog bed, and punished the dog, what exactly does the dog think he is punished for? For coming to great you when you came in the door in his mind... THAT would be why next time the couch is chewed, you just created a problem...

It is like people that punish their dog for running away.. The dog takes off, you chase it, call it, hang treats, start yelling across the neighborhood wanna go for a car car ride?? Then you catch the dog and you scold it... Well, now you punished the dog for coming to you, next time good luck... No matter how mad you are, when you catch the dog you have to reward it, next time the dog will come faster...

Sorry, but if you don't witness the behavior, it is gone and over in their mind, try keeping the dog away from things you don't want chewed when you are not around in the future.

I agree with you 100%.

Tundra_Queen
July 6th, 2009, 08:52 AM
"Actually recently Brad came to one of our classes and during the class I was giving Fido some water out of a bottle and another dog came up and tried to have some too. To my utter shock Fido snapped at the other dog and didn't want to share. I was actually pretty embarrassed (I mean it happened in front of Brad of course!) and couldn't believe Fido would do this. He has many many doggie friends and has never done that before. So Brad got me to give Fido the bottle again but when he started to drink I had to kind of punch him under the jaw. I did this twice and then was told I wasn't doing it hard enough so Brad showed me how. I have to say I kindof fell apart a little at this point, I couldn't believe that I had to hit my dog so hard. I understand how this works (and it did work) but I personally found it really difficult to do. I am still learning myself how to be the alpha and sometimes I find it hard."

Gotta love it!! This man is teaching other people to train dogs!!!

He was too late. Why would he make the dog drink more water and then punch the dog AFTER the incident? I mean I think punching a dog is insane, but even if he said... NO BAD while giving the dog the second drink of water it would still make no sense! The dog wouldn't understand why he was getting punched and would just be scared and confused! What a jerk!

Debbie

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 08:58 AM
He was too late. Why would he make the dog drink more water and then punch the dog AFTER the incident? I mean I think punching a dog is insane, but even if he said... NO BAD while giving the dog the second drink of water it would still make no sense! The dog wouldn't understand why he was getting punched and would just be scared and confused! What a jerk!

Debbie

I think he wanted to re-create the scenario and then 'correct' it his way immediately.

Why does he not teach the dog 'back up' when things get dicey? Yesterday, a rottie mix interupted a party at my friends. At the party was a lab and my foster. The dog was dominent and when he went for my little one, I just stood up, pointed and used a big voice saying 'back up'. I am certain that this dog did not understand (as we found his french owners 3 hours later) but the gesture was enough to advise him that he was too close too fast. (BTW - we did intergrate all 3 in the secured backyard and everything went smooth....nice dog).

kitona
July 6th, 2009, 09:22 AM
A sudden hand movement towards the face of any animal, humans included, is just plain rude. It's a violent aggressive action, therefor has no place in the ''training'' of anything! What would happen if you were to do that to another human, or horse or strange dog? You'd be lucky to not get charged, kicked or bit. Sorry, I just don't get the whole ''trust through aggressive domination'' thing that these so-called ''trainers'' employ. My dogs get good solid intelligent leadership from me, not b!t&#% slaps!

Lynne_B
July 6th, 2009, 09:23 AM
How do you know that dogs don't have memory? Did someone tell you? Has there been a study or 2 done to that effect? Many of the sources I have read have been about half and half for trainers that say they do and don't have memory.

I think dogs do have memory, of good things, bad things, lots of things. My dog remembers the way to the park vs. the vets office, he remembered where his "pee area" was at my husbands grandparents house when the last time we were there was a year ago. He remembers that hubbie's grandma gives him good neck scratches because the first thing he did when he saw her was went up to her, sat, and put his head up (we hadn't seen them in about a year, and usually he's just uber excited and sniffing and licking). So, I'm sorry, but I disagree when you say that dogs don't have memory and wouldn't know what they are being punished for. But if you want, you can use the same example I cited and put in the assumption that they were caught in the act for whatever they were doing, as that wasn't really the point I was trying to get across, you could use anything, like getting caught grabbing something off the counter, or out of the garbage, or whatever.

Also, I am not a trainer, nor have I ever claimed to be, I've just worked with Brad before. Also, I do use positive reinforcement (praise, no treats), but I do correct for bad behaviour as well. My dog is very loving, gentle, loves attention, has a lot of energy (and I love it, he's got a great personality). He loves to play with us and with other dogs, and he's very strong and smart. I'm not here telling you to use these training methods though, just explaining why they make sense to me. You use whatever you feel works best for you and your dog, as there are a ton of training techniques out there.

bendyfoot
July 6th, 2009, 09:32 AM
I have a few comments on this

1. I don't think it's unreasonable for a dog to warn another dog if they're doing something they don't like, whether it's invading space, challenging over an object, whatever. Dogs are allowed to say "back off, it's mine" PROVIDED that it's not a human, and object/space is in fact "theirs". Correcting dogs who growl warning is like taking the diffuser off a time bomb. In this case I don't know that I'd even correct the snap. It would depend on the dog and the situation, which is impossible to know unless you witnessed it. It could be that the other dog was displaying other rude or challenging behaviours at the time. I don't correct my dogs when they correct each otherusually, it's how they communicate. I will, however, correct my dogs if they are guarding something innapropriate, like MY food or MY space.

2. If the person was in fact instructed to "punch" the dog, i.e. hit it with a closed fist, then this is obviously not cool.

However, if the person was instructed to administer a physical correction with their hand...i.e. a poke with a finger or two to interrup the unwanted behaviour, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. SOME dogs CAN respond well to this type of correction in SOME circumstances. Again, it depends on the dog. Any type of physical correction with Jaida is completely lost on her, it means nothing...she rarely displays any behaviours that would warrant it anyways. Gracie, however, will get a poke on her flank with either a finger or a toe if she starts to fixate on another dog in an agressive manner. It immediately interrups the escalation of her aggressive behaviour and turns her attention to me, far more effectively than even a leash correction. Then I'm able to praise the bejeezus out of her for her calm body language and her attentiveness to me.

There's a huge difference between a poke and a punch.

Again, though, I'm not 100% convinced that any type of correction was needed in this situation.

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Lynne B - you know I luv ya but I am going to say this. Indeed dogs do have memory. I deal with abused rescues and that memory is sometimes very difficult to change. The memory and associations are negative. They are usually memories that involves hand movements. Anyways - that is just a 'BenMax' way of thinking.

At the same time I do agree with Bendyfoot as to using hands in mannerism that curb behaviour but I am sorry.....punching is not one of them Lynne B.

Lynne_B
July 6th, 2009, 10:03 AM
:thumbs up Thanks Benmax, if it makes you feel better I don't agree with punching either! :) (and I do value your opinion as well as others here). I think punching or hitting or kicking a dog is stupid, and can cause problems like everyone else has said, I guess what I'm getting at is that I think this person wasn't describing it properly. The way that Brad teaches how to do an under the jaw correction is not punching. I just wanted to clarify that, because everyone reads something about Brad doing a physical correction, and jumps all over him calling out "abuse! abuse!". I have a lot of respect for the man, so I feel compelled to stick up for him, he's a public figure that everyone seems to want to take down all the time. And yes, physical corrections are not always a good idea, especially if it is a dog, like you described, that is hand shy, as it can cause even more damage, and the dog could shut down. Some dogs can't even handle you being in their physical space, or manouvering them with a collar and leash. Some dogs have never been socialized properly and have to be handled very carefully around other dogs and people. And like I said, it's always a good idea to contact a professional when you are unsure of what to do. Physical corrections are only a very small part of training, and aren't for every person, or every dog by any means, it's just a tool in your toolbox of training. The biggest tools we use with our dog are attention, body language, and praise. And the majority of what we learned has been from Brad and his methods.

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 10:10 AM
Lynne B what we learned has not been from Brad. I have learned things from different trainers and behaviouralists. These trainers range from those who train police dogs to the high level trainer. I never heard of Brad until I saw him on TV. He does not have it Lynne B. He is not a natural. Sorry to disagree but just by his mannerism on TV with the people and the dogs, this guy is clumbsy, unnatural and fake in my opinion. He is just not my mentor when it comes to training. Please tell us more about this jaw method thing. I really want to visualize it and understand.

lostmary
July 6th, 2009, 10:14 AM
Touch for a distraction is ok. If anyone has ever see Cesar Milan show the dog whisper, you will see how he does the touch to break the thought process in dogs. Even with being attacked, he doesn't punch a dog. If the person describing the situation was doing so poorly, then perhaps something else was going on. You can touch a dog without hurting it. I would never touch a dog with my hand under or on the head. dogs have very good memories. What they don't have is a congnative ability to say that action A at 10am and human reaction at 1pm have anything in common. If you have a child, and he does something in the morning, you don't go to him in the afternoon and put him in time out. It will only work if the time out is directly after the offense. that is how dogs learn. If B always happens after A, and B isn't pleasant, the A will stop happening (over time).

Mary

Lynne_B
July 6th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Lynne B what we learned has not been from Brad. I have learned things from different trainers and behaviouralists. These trainers range from those who train police dogs to the high level trainer. I never heard of Brad until I saw him on TV. He does not have it Lynne B. He is not a natural. Sorry to disagree but just by his mannerism on TV with the people and the dogs, this guy is clumbsy, unnatural and fake in my opinion. He is just not my mentor when it comes to training. Please tell us more about this jaw method thing. I really want to visualize it and understand.

I have a hard time describing it without the pictures in Brad's book in front of me, but can you visualize on a person how you would chuck someone under the chin, or tilt someone's head back with two fingers? The hand position is similar. To picture it, point your hand like a gun, but with middle and index finger out instead of just the index. Bring thumb down, and curl fingers in slightly. Then you move your hand at a 45 degree angle towards the jaw very quickly, but the contact with the jaw is very brief, and without a lot of force, there's just a lot of speed moving your hand towards the jaw. I can't comment on the original post, as I wasn't there and I don't know anything about that owner's dog, or even if I completely understand why the correction was made, as I only have the post to go on. If I've learned anything about dog training, it's that it's really hard to describe something in writing, but I did my best! And it's ok that you don't respect Brad as a trainer, you're more than entitled to your opinion, I'm not going to take it personally. What I have a problem with is when people make bad assumptions about what he's all about. I'm also trying to read more about training from other sources to expand my horizons, because I think that dog training is ever evolving and there is so much out there to learn. I'd be pretty close minded to say that I've learned all that I'm going to learn about dog training, I mean really, Fizz is the first dog I've had since I was a little kid on the farm. Oh and by the way, if you have any stories to share on police dog training, I would love it if you could share them, I think it's so amazing what these furry buddies of ours are capable of, and it's really just plain cool to hear about that side of it, it just blows my mind sometimes.

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Firstly - for police dog training I cannot share much with you as I only saw the end results - never A-Z.

As for this technique - I can only imagine this as being dangerous to the human hand with a dog that is growling and has a high value item in or around his mouth, next to another dog. I am not sure about this technique as personally, I would not try it.

bendyfoot
July 6th, 2009, 10:58 AM
I don't think a correction on the face is wise either...um, that's where the pointy bits are!!! The idea of coming in quickly there, too, doesn't seem like a great idea, JMO.

If the poke(?) was meant as an interruption, the rump or the shoulder probably would have been just as effective and much safer than the face area.

BenMax
July 6th, 2009, 11:00 AM
I don't think a correction on the face is wise either...um, that's where the pointy bits are!!! The idea of coming in quickly there, too, doesn't seem like a great idea, JMO.

If the poke(?) was meant as an interruption, the rump or the shoulder probably would have been just as effective and much safer than the face area.

I have to agree. Any correction around the mouth area is just not done period. A circumstance like this is setting everyone (mostly the dog) for failure.

SandraLM
July 6th, 2009, 11:03 AM
And what if the dog's tongue was in the way at the time. I couldn't imagine a cut on the poor dog's tongue, which would have bled like crazy.

lUvMyLaB<3
July 6th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Bendy I love it, you are so right, when a dog is growling, I agree it is a good idea to stay far away from them pointy bits!

YES Lynne dog's have memory, yup! But how does one communicate with a dog to attach an action with a previous un-witnessed behavior? The dog chews bed, you come home and discover, now, how do you punish the dog for this, and attaching said punishment to the bed chewing? You cannot, whatever the dog is doing at that moment is what will be corrected, dogs have memories, but they live in the moment. That is why when a pup poops on the floor while you were not watching you should rub your nose in it and not the dogs, punishing a dog for pooping on the floor 6 hours ago is not going to get you anywhere.

I have seen Brads show, He has some valid points, but he is far from the best trainer, he is just crazy, and that makes for good t.v. I DISAGREE with you, about everyone learning techniques from him. If anything people have taken more from cesar, now all people want to be the alpha.. Pinning a dog 22 times, was probably the silliest thing I saw, If you make a dog do anything 22 times you will see a change, get the dog to sit 22 times a day, trust me, after a week, your dog will have learned sit, and will respond to you better at all times, no need to pin it. I have learned from trainers that have been working with dogs since before Brad probably ever had a dog, I have a behaviorist, several trainers, mentors that are psycho good at what they do with their dogs, I learn from each one. I wouldn't watch Brads show and think he is the greatest trainer ever, lets only listen to him. I think his people skills need a little polishing..

luckypenny
July 6th, 2009, 07:08 PM
1. I don't think it's unreasonable for a dog to warn another dog if they're doing something they don't like, whether it's invading space, challenging over an object, whatever. Dogs are allowed to say "back off, it's mine" PROVIDED that it's not a human, and object/space is in fact "theirs". Correcting dogs who growl warning is like taking the diffuser off a time bomb. In this case I don't know that I'd even correct the snap. It would depend on the dog and the situation, which is impossible to know unless you witnessed it. It could be that the other dog was displaying other rude or challenging behaviours at the time. I don't correct my dogs when they correct each otherusually, it's how they communicate. I will, however, correct my dogs if they are guarding something innapropriate, like MY food or MY space.

My thoughts exactly. Why on earth would someone want to correct a dog who's giving a warning, whether it be a growl or an air snap in front of another dog? The only behavior one would accomplish eliminating is the dog's warning. I think that's why we often hear, "but we didn't see it coming" after a dog bites.

Our dogs correct each other when it's necessary. They also correct any young dogs when they're out of line. They teach them not to steal valuables such as food and toys that belongs to another, how to greet them appropriately rather than obnoxiously, and bite inhibition. And, most importantly, they do this without any physical contact whatsoever. Who better to teach dogs how to behave appropriately with their own kind than other well balanced dogs? Sheesh, if humans just spend some time observing them, rather than feeling the need to interrupt all the time, we wouldn't have so many problem behaviors to deal with, including our own.

Lynne_B
July 6th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Hehe I just realized that I should clarify something in my post that's being misinterpreted. When I say that the majority of what "we've" learned about dog behaviour and training methods is from Brad, I meant we as in hubbie and me, not we as in people participating in this thread. Sorry!

lostmary
July 7th, 2009, 08:07 AM
It's great to see so many people who love and understand their dogs. We all try out best to learn and properly work with our dogs. there are so many so called trainers out there, that sometimes you have to watch a bunch to find one that is good. Just remember, do it with love and kindness. I talk to all my animals, and although I know they don't speak english, I do know that they respond to what I'm saying. And my mother had a saying about us kids.
You can't beat out what was bred into them. (She was talking about us kids). Some things are dogs behavior and we can't and shouldn't try to change it. I always tell people in my classes, If a specific behavior doesn't bother you, don't change it. Some people don't want dogs sleeping in the big bed, and then you have to train the dog not to be on the big bed. If you are like me, I don't mind. Mine all sleep with us. As do the cats. (pretty soon I'll have to put a couple of king size beds side by side so we can all get a good nights sleep:sleepy:). I'm proud of all of you for your love of your animals.

bendyfoot
July 7th, 2009, 08:38 AM
Who better to teach dogs how to behave appropriately with their own kind than other well balanced dogs? Sheesh, if humans just spend some time observing them, rather than feeling the need to interrupt all the time, we wouldn't have so many problem behaviors to deal with, including our own.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

And yes.

Quite frankly, once we got past the initial hurdles with Gracie's agression, it was really the the addition of our other two dogs that REALLY helped teach her the proper ways to interact. Heck, Gracie didn't know how to play bow for crying out loud until we got Heidi...Heidi taught her and now she does it all the time. That's not something a human can teach a dog.