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foods for a cat with the 'pre-curser' to KD

Mia101
June 23rd, 2009, 03:46 AM
She is not touching the Hills k/d. Which would not be my first choice anyway.

Help, I love my baby. I was so used to good bloodwork I thought she was invincible, lol.

I changed her to premium a year or more ago, but I forgot topay attention to phospherous. It's probably my fault her kidney levels are elevated:yell:

sugarcatmom
June 23rd, 2009, 06:57 AM
Definitely stay away from K/D :yuck:. She's smart not to eat it. What has she been eating (dry? wet?). Your best bet is to get her onto a low-carb, quality protein wet food like Wellness or Innova Evo 95% meat. (Or a raw diet, if that's something you're interested in making).

A high phosphorus food is not actually going to cause kidney problems in otherwise healthy kidneys, so I wouldn't blame yourself for this.

TacoGrl
June 23rd, 2009, 09:47 AM
Picky cats do like the Innova EVO and as SCM said, it is good for them :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
June 23rd, 2009, 09:49 PM
Wellness does have a few different flavours in the low end phosphorus range: Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Beef & Salmon are all kidney cat approved by my CRF grrl :D

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I'm going to feed her the same as if she already has KD?

Through my research here, I have had her on Wellness canned. For dry snacks she was eating a mix of Wellness Complete Health and CORE.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 10:19 AM
Wellness does have a few different flavours in the low end phosphorus range: Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Beef & Salmon are all kidney cat approved by my CRF grrl :D

I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?

How convenient that wellness is good for her. We had a hellofatime switching to a premium wet food over here.

I guess Fancy Feast has too much phosphorous? I know it's not considered a great food but I think it looks pretty good from the ingredients.


What I really like about it is I can keep putting more (bottled, now) water in the bowl and it turns into 'gravy' fast so she is drinking LOTS. This doesn't work with the wellness.

(my local retailer stopped carrying wellness so she is eating FF right now)

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2009, 11:02 AM
I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?

It's true that you don't want to feed too much fish (tends to be higher in phosphorus), but the Wellness Beef & Salmon is one of the better fishy choices. What you really want to stay away from is a food that's all or mostly fish-based and has multiple types of fish, or even worse, unspecified fish (like "fish meal" or "white fish" or "ocean fish"). Many of the Fancy Feast or Friskies or 9-Lives fish flavours come to mind.

I guess Fancy Feast has too much phosphorous? I know it's not considered a great food but I think it looks pretty good from the ingredients.

Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 01:40 PM
It's true that you don't want to feed too much fish (tends to be higher in phosphorus), but the Wellness Beef & Salmon is one of the better fishy choices. What you really want to stay away from is a food that's all or mostly fish-based and has multiple types of fish, or even worse, unspecified fish (like "fish meal" or "white fish" or "ocean fish"). Many of the Fancy Feast or Friskies or 9-Lives fish flavours come to mind.



Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.

Do you know if the Wellness Complete Health is alright for the dry?

IS there a way to keep her from getting KD?

killmo
June 25th, 2009, 03:09 PM
I went through this with my late great Flo. She had rejected all renal diets and the Vet then gave me a homemade recipe which she accepted begrudgingly. Here's the recipe if you'd like to try it but I would check with your Vet first. I used to make it in batches and freeze it. I used a blender to puree the meat and then mixed the rest in.

1/4 lb. Liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
2 large hard-boiled eggs
2 cups cooked white rice without salt
1 Tablespoon vegetable oil
1 t (5 grams) calcium carbonate
1/8 teaspoon KCI (salt substitute)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all vitamins and trace minerals, and 250 mg taurine/day

Dice and braise the meat, retaining fat. Combine all ingredients and mix well. This mixture is somewhat dry and the palatability may be improved by adding some water (not milk).


Renal diets for people are just awful and tasteless so I would imagine it is the same for a cat and which is why so many cats reject the diet. Wouldn't you? I do think back on Flo and often wonder whether I might have done her more of a kindess by allowing her to eat what she liked instead of forcing a renal diet on her. Afterall, eating is one of a cat's greatest joys in life. Her life may have been shorter but in the end she may have been happier. That's just my .02. Of course, I would try every option available if one of my two developed CRF but in the end if I had to do it over again I would abandon the diet if the cat truly rejected the food. Flo just never ate enough of the homemade diet to sustain her in the long run. While I thought I was doing what was best for her I sometimes still wonder.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 03:58 PM
I went through this with my late great Flo. She had rejected all renal diets and the Vet then gave me a homemade recipe which she accepted begrudgingly. Here's the recipe if you'd like to try it but I would check with your Vet first. I used to make it in batches and freeze it. I used a blender to puree the meat and then mixed the rest in.

1/4 lb. Liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
2 large hard-boiled eggs
2 cups cooked white rice without salt
1 Tablespoon vegetable oil
1 t (5 grams) calcium carbonate
1/8 teaspoon KCI (salt substitute)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all vitamins and trace minerals, and 250 mg taurine/day

Dice and braise the meat, retaining fat. Combine all ingredients and mix well. This mixture is somewhat dry and the palatability may be improved by adding some water (not milk).


Renal diets for people are just awful and tasteless so I would imagine it is the same for a cat and which is why so many cats reject the diet. Wouldn't you? I do think back on Flo and often wonder whether I might have done her more of a kindess by allowing her to eat what she liked instead of forcing a renal diet on her. Afterall, eating is one of a cat's greatest joys in life. Her life may have been shorter but in the end she may have been happier. That's just my .02. Of course, I would try every option available if one of my two developed CRF but in the end if I had to do it over again I would abandon the diet if the cat truly rejected the food. Flo just never ate enough of the homemade diet to sustain her in the long run. While I thought I was doing what was best for her I sometimes still wonder.

How long did she live after her diagnosis?

I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.

Somewhere there is a balance and you did what you thought to be right at the time - don't blame yourself!

If she rejects renal diets I will get as close as possible and let her eat whatever that is.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Why is water so important?

Right now I am adding it to her food to make gravy.

I think she is filling up on the gravy and maybe not getting enough food!

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 04:01 PM
Do I treat her like a cat who already has KD to try and keep it from developing?

Or is it different when she just has the 'pre-curser'

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2009, 05:19 PM
Why is water so important?

Helps the kidneys to do their job, which is filter out toxins from the blood stream (among other things). Dehydration is hugely detrimental to the kidneys, so if you can eliminate the kibble, that would be ideal. Not only is dry food a paltry 10% moisture or less (when cats should be eating food with 60-80% moisture), but it actually pulls even more water out of the cells during digestion, compounding the dehydrating effects.

Right now I am adding it to her food to make gravy.

I think she is filling up on the gravy and maybe not getting enough food!

How much does she weigh, and how much food does she eat? Is she losing weight? There's a general feeding guideline of about 20-30 calories per lb per day for the average adult cat.

Do I treat her like a cat who already has KD to try and keep it from developing?

Or is it different when she just has the 'pre-curser'

Do you have a copy of her latest lab results, including urinalysis? My opinion is that even kidney cats should be eating what all cats should be eating, which is a quality protein, low-carb (preferably grain-free), wet food. Keeping the phosphorus content of the food within a reasonable level is a good goal if there are signs of kidney insufficiency.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 05:39 PM
I can't believe I let her drink tap water. Her kidneys would not have had to work so hard.

I don't know if she's really eating less. It's only been a few days.

I have her on canned only now. Before it was mostly canned with some dry.

The vet didn't do a urine test. Weird, huh?

I don't have the labwork yet but I am getting it. He just said her kidney levels were elevated and to start her on renal diet food.

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2009, 06:25 PM
The vet didn't do a urine test. Weird, huh?

I don't have the labwork yet but I am getting it. He just said her kidney levels were elevated and to start her on renal diet food.

:rolleyes: You can't diagnose kidney disease without a urinalysis, particularly the urine specific gravity.

Mia101
June 25th, 2009, 06:32 PM
:rolleyes: You can't diagnose kidney disease without a urinalysis, particularly the urine specific gravity.

He didn't diagnose KD. He said her Kidney levels were elevated and that it's a sign that K/D is coming.

growler~GateKeeper
June 25th, 2009, 11:59 PM
I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?

Yes you do want to limit fish for reasons already stated by scm & also see below re addiction. However the Wellness Beef & Salmon has enough of a 2nd protein in it that the fish is not the only thing they taste, plus the dry matter phos level is good.

I've found the Wellness to be pretty good with turning into a slurry :D more than gravy which in turn means they end of eating more of the canned & not just the watery gravy.

Do you know if the Wellness Complete Health is alright for the dry?

IS there a way to keep her from getting KD?

Wellness Complete Health Chicken and Rice Dry runs at 1.12 dry matter phos and the Wellness Complete Health Salmon and Turkey Dry runs at 1.01 dry matter phos.

Canned is by far better but if you must feed some not all dry either one is okay, the Salmon has better dm phos numbers but you want to be aware of the addictive fish aspect. Some cats once they start on fish will only eat fish & it becomes darn near impossible to get them to eat anything else - that is one other reason to limit the fish intake.

Unfortunately there is no way to stop kidney failure from happening.

I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.

This is true, the renal diet won't do any good if the cat refuses to eat because they don't like the taste due to a lack of fat & protein and therefore lack of taste.

He didn't diagnose KD. He said her Kidney levels were elevated and that it's a sign that K/D is coming.

Elevated and out of normal range or elevated on the high side of normal?

Mia101
June 26th, 2009, 09:49 AM
IDK. Thank you for helping me with questions to ask him!

It can't be stopped - so I am just trying to slow it down with diet?

killmo
June 26th, 2009, 11:26 AM
How long did she live after her diagnosis?

I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.

Somewhere there is a balance and you did what you thought to be right at the time - don't blame yourself!

If she rejects renal diets I will get as close as possible and let her eat whatever that is.


She lived almost 3 years after diagnosis but she was half her normal weight at death. As I said, if I had to do it over again I'd let her eat what she wanted.

Mia101
June 26th, 2009, 07:25 PM
She lived almost 3 years after diagnosis but she was half her normal weight at death. As I said, if I had to do it over again I'd let her eat what she wanted.

I'm so sorry for your loss. Don't beat yourself up - you did what you thought was right at the time.

I will take heed and let my baby eat what she wants if it comes to that.

Mia101
June 26th, 2009, 07:26 PM
Is there such a thing as too much water?

She is drinking a LOT since I started putting it in her wet food.

And peeing a lot more too.

Mia101
June 26th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Two substances in the blood urea and creatinine are commonly analysed, as these are products of metabolism that are normally excreted by the kidneys. In renal failure the blood concentration of these two products will be increased. However, as there are some conditions other than chronic renal failure that can also elevate these concentrations, a urine sample is usually analysed at the same time.

I wonder why the vet didn't test her urine? Of course I still don't know what the labwork says. Just 'elevated kidney levels' is all he said. I wonder if that means something different than what is said above.

growler~GateKeeper
June 26th, 2009, 11:19 PM
It can't be stopped - so I am just trying to slow it down with diet?

Yes and when it gets to a certain point there are other treatment options such as fluid therapy, medications, supplements etc

Is there such a thing as too much water?

She is drinking a LOT since I started putting it in her wet food.

And peeing a lot more too.

If you can measure out the amount of water you put in her dish leave it out for her for 24 hrs, then measure again how much is left in the dish, do this for 2 or 3 days & write down how much water she is drinking. Another way is to measure out water, leave the dish for 1 week then re-measure the water left, that will give a good indication to your vet as to how much she is drinking and whether she is dehydrated & needs fluid therapy. Then in the future you can measure again & compare the amounts.

I wonder why the vet didn't test her urine? Of course I still don't know what the labwork says. Just 'elevated kidney levels' is all he said. I wonder if that means something different than what is said above.

How old is she & what's her name?

Some vets will do bloodwork first, then if anything shows they will do a Urinalysis. There are other possibilities for elevated kidney levels that are not kidney failure but 98% of the time it is CRF.

Mia101
June 29th, 2009, 04:51 PM
She won't drink regular water from a dish. But yesterday I measure what I put into her wet food and it was over 4 oz.

I was wondering if I'm inadvertently 'forcing' too much water by making it flavorful.

Since there were elevated kidney levels, I don't understand why he didn't test urine.

I'm also confused about phosphorous - one post said it doesn't cause CRF, and she doesn't have it right now. So why lower the levels?

I was thinking maybe more hydration would return her levels to normal and maybe prevent CRF?

Also, is CRF and KD the same thing?

She is about 18.

Mia101
June 29th, 2009, 11:43 PM
I got her labwork.

BUN = 38 Says normal is 15-34.

MCHC = 37.6 norm 29-36

Is the Wellness chicken and herring OK? She likes it!

Mia101
June 29th, 2009, 11:46 PM
Phosphorous 4.0 norm 3.0-7.0

growler~GateKeeper
June 30th, 2009, 12:28 AM
She won't drink regular water from a dish. But yesterday I measure what I put into her wet food and it was over 4 oz.

I was wondering if I'm inadvertently 'forcing' too much water by making it flavorful.

Since there were elevated kidney levels, I don't understand why he didn't test urine.

I'm also confused about phosphorous - one post said it doesn't cause CRF, and she doesn't have it right now. So why lower the levels?

I was thinking maybe more hydration would return her levels to normal and maybe prevent CRF?

Also, is CRF and KD the same thing?

She is about 18.

What is she drinking water from a running tap or a fountain?

The amount of water in the food isn't really going to be enough to say it's too much, for any kind of kidney issue they need the extra water to flush out the toxins in the body.

As for why your vet didn't test the urine :shrug: you can always request a urinalysis.

High phosphorus levels in food will not cause kidney failure in a healthy cat, and feeding a low phosphorus food to a healthy cat will not prevent kidney failure. Feeding a low phosphorus food to a kidney failure cat is less strain/less work for the kidneys. Phosphorus is an essential mineral in the body that can not be properly excreted by damaged kidneys leading to other complications as well as the cat feeling awful.

http://www.felinecrf.org/just_diagnosed.htm#phosphorus
Phosphorus and calcium are minerals which are important for nerve function, muscle contraction and bone formation. A healthy body has a natural balance between levels of phosphorus and calcium. CRF kidneys can no longer excrete phosphorus properly so levels of phosphorus rise (hyperphosphataemia), which can then adversely affect the cat's calcium levels, with potentially serious consequences (secondary hyperparathyroidism). Not only that, but high phosphorus levels may make the CRF progress faster and can make a cat feel lousy. So controlling phosphorus levels is one of the most important steps in managing CRF and helping your cat feel better.

CRF (Chronic Renal Failure) & CKD or KD (Chronic / Kidney Disease) are different ways of saying the same thing.


I got her labwork.

BUN = 38 Says normal is 15-34.

MCHC = 37.6 norm 29-36

Is the Wellness chicken and herring OK? She likes it!

What is the Creatinine level?

The slightly raised MCHC is a higher concentration of hemoglobin in the red blood cells, likely due to not drinking enough water to compensate for the amount she's peeing.

Wellness Chicken & Herring is too high in phosphorus the dry matter amount is 1.48%, the goal for dry matter phosphorus is 1% or lower. The Wellness flavours I mentioned at the top of the thread all have acceptable dry matter phosphorus levels of between 1.05 - 1.17%.

Mia101
June 30th, 2009, 08:54 PM
OK but if her kidneys are not damaged, the phospherous does not matter? That is what I am confused on.

She might not have been drinking enough before - she would not use the fountain and drank from the tap. I didn't like to let her, but thought it's better to let her drink any way she would.

Now she must be drinking enough - maybe too much - with me making all this 'gravy'. so her levels might return to normal?

My store only has chicken, turkey, chicken & beef, and chicken & herring.

In the past she didn't like the chicken or turkey enough to eat everyday. But we will see.

Creatinine level = 1.7 norm .8-2.3

Mia101
June 30th, 2009, 08:59 PM
The amount of water in the food isn't really going to be enough to say it's too much, for any kind of kidney issue they need the extra water to flush out the toxins in the body.

I meant all that I'm adding to each feeding. She doesn't eat even 1/3 of a 5.5 oz can at a time, and I add water to each meal. I'm wondering if I am 'focing' more than she needs because it tastes good.

weight - she has normally been 7 pounds her whole life - I think once or twice she read at 8p. The last reading was 6.12

growler~GateKeeper
June 30th, 2009, 11:39 PM
OK but if her kidneys are not damaged, the phospherous does not matter? That is what I am confused on.

She might not have been drinking enough before - she would not use the fountain and drank from the tap. I didn't like to let her, but thought it's better to let her drink any way she would.

Creatinine level = 1.7 norm .8-2.3

Since the vet has already indicated, as shown on the bloodwork, she has elevated kidney enzymes, reducing the amount of phosphorus in the food now will reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do in order to process & eliminate phos from the body.

Because the BUN is already high and the creatinine is more than half of normal, she's lost almost a pound of weight in the last couple of years, she's a senior at 18 years old and you have noticed her peeing more, it is a good idea not to put any more strain on the kidneys that may cause faster deterioration of their function. Feeding low phos right now will not prevent kidney failure but it will slow the progression of kidney disease & make less of an impact on the kidneys. She may not have damaged kidneys right now but there is a high chance she has pre-renal atozemia ~ damage in the area of the tubes that feed into the kidneys, when this disease progresses farther it becomes kidney failure.

Her BUN is high, her MCHC is high, her creatinine is on the high side of normal ---- right now this indicates she's dehydrated - not getting enough water to compensate for the amount she is peeing out.

http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.htm#kidney_function_measures
If BUN or urea levels are high yet creatinine is normal or only a little elevated, it usually means that the cat is dehydrated, has gastro-intestinal bleeding, or is eating a high protein diet.

Now she must be drinking enough - maybe too much - with me making all this 'gravy'. so her levels might return to normal?

Adding 4 oz of water to her food is not enough to flush out toxins in the bloodstream, certainly not enough to reverse dehydration.

On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.

A cat with any indications of kidney disease needs more water than that per day to help combat dehydration, flush the system and replace the water lost through increased urination.


My store only has chicken, turkey, chicken & beef, and chicken & herring.

In the past she didn't like the chicken or turkey enough to eat everyday. But we will see.

You don't have to feed only 1 flavour day after day, rotate through the 3 different flavours.


I meant all that I'm adding to each feeding. She doesn't eat even 1/3 of a 5.5 oz can at a time, and I add water to each meal. I'm wondering if I am 'focing' more than she needs because it tastes good.

weight - she has normally been 7 pounds her whole life - I think once or twice she read at 8p. The last reading was 6.12

Does she finish all the food in her dish per meal?

How much of the can(s) is she eating per day?

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 12:24 AM
Since the vet has already indicated, as shown on the bloodwork, she has elevated kidney enzymes, reducing the amount of phosphorus in the food now will reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do in order to process & eliminate phos from the body.

Because the BUN is already high and the creatinine is more than half of normal, she's lost almost a pound of weight in the last couple of years, she's a senior at 18 years old and you have noticed her peeing more, it is a good idea not to put any more strain on the kidneys that may cause faster deterioration of their function. Feeding low phos right now will not prevent kidney failure but it will slow the progression of kidney disease & make less of an impact on the kidneys. She may not have damaged kidneys right now but there is a high chance she has pre-renal atozemia ~ damage in the area of the tubes that feed into the kidneys, when this disease progresses farther it becomes kidney failure.

Her BUN is high, her MCHC is high, her creatinine is on the high side of normal ---- right now this indicates she's dehydrated - not getting enough water to compensate for the amount she is peeing out.





Adding 4 oz of water to her food is not enough to flush out toxins in the bloodstream, certainly not enough to reverse dehydration.

On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.

A cat with any indications of kidney disease needs more water than that per day to help combat dehydration, flush the system and replace the water lost through increased urination.




You don't have to feed only 1 flavour day after day, rotate through the 3 different flavours.




Does she finish all the food in her dish per meal?

How much of the can(s) is she eating per day?

rotate which three? the chicken and herring you said ais out. chicken and beef is OK?

Sorry - I'm in a tizzy b/c this cat is special to me and I'm upset I didn't get her more hydrated sooner.

b/f her levels were high, I listened to the advice here and switched her to canned mostly. But I didn't do enough to add water and get her to drink more.

High protein can also cause this? She was eating Wellness complete health and Core for dry, and wellness canned.

She wasn't peeing more until I was making gravy to drink. So I don't think that is a symptom?

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 12:28 AM
oh and the food is 77% moisture so I take that into account also.

She eats varying amounts. One day only a 3 oz can,the next day she eats 2 of those cans.

Today she is 75% through a 5.5 oz can and seems to be done for the night.

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooo much for sharing all the detail it would take me forever to research. If I had it I'd get your paypal and send you money. Vets don't get this details.

I can't really afford wellness canned everyday but I'm going to anyway! I am upset because in the latter stages I cannot afford IVs or any of that. If she gets secondary hyperthyroidism I can't treat it.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 12:33 AM
On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.

She's getting a little over 4 oz just from a can of food plain (now that it's strictly wellness). So if I'm adding 4-6 oz that is 8-10. Isn't that too much?

growler~GateKeeper
July 1st, 2009, 01:36 AM
rotate which three? the chicken and herring you said ais out. chicken and beef is OK?

Sorry - I'm in a tizzy b/c this cat is special to me and I'm upset I didn't get her more hydrated sooner.

b/f her levels were high, I listened to the advice here and switched her to canned mostly. But I didn't do enough to add water and get her to drink more.

High protein can also cause this? She was eating Wellness complete health and Core for dry, and wellness canned.

She wasn't peeing more until I was making gravy to drink. So I don't think that is a symptom?

The 3 are turkey, chicken, beef & chicken - those are the lowest phos Wellness canned.

The old theory is that high protein is bad for kidney cats and they should be eating low protien low phos food. The problem with that is cats are carnivores they need meat, if you lower the protein too much their body starts burning body muscle/fat and they lose too much weight, also a lower protein food is not as tasty and cats eat what smells/tastes good - if they don't like the taste of a low protein food they're not going to eat which defeats the purpose of the food. So you find a food they like & will eat that has normal or slightly lower protein levels that is lower in phos.

She was likely peeing a little more when you swtiched over to a mostly canned diet, even before adding water to it because of the higher moisture content.

oh and the food is 77% moisture so I take that into account also.

She eats varying amounts. One day only a 3 oz can,the next day she eats 2 of those cans.

Today she is 75% through a 5.5 oz can and seems to be done for the night.

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooo much for sharing all the detail it would take me forever to research. If I had it I'd get your paypal and send you money. Vets don't get this details.

I can't really afford wellness canned everyday but I'm going to anyway! I am upset because in the latter stages I cannot afford IVs or any of that. If she gets secondary hyperthyroidism I can't treat it.

See if you can tempt her into eating a little more on the days she only eats 3 oz. In general the average cat should eat 4-6 ounces of canned food per day split between 2-3 meals.

If your store carries the 12.5oz cans it's actually cheaper to buy the bigger ones. You can freeze half of the food from the can in a storage container such as Ziploc Single Serve, and feed it another day.

If you aren't doing so already the food from the cans with a pop tops/pull tab lid should be stored in a glass dish or ziploc plastic container, not stored in the can in your fridge. There was a health study done some years ago about the adverse effects when the lining of the cans with pull tab lids is exposed to the air & leaching into the food potentially causing HyperT in cats.

Don't worry about what ifs right now, it's early yet, but I would suggest since she is a senior & you also have another pet, if you can putting some money aside each paycheck into an account for vet expenses - this is a good idea for anyone who has pets healthy or not, just in case.

She's getting a little over 4 oz just from a can of food plain (now that it's strictly wellness). So if I'm adding 4-6 oz that is 8-10. Isn't that too much?

Given that her bloodwork shows dehydration I would say it's not too much

Is she still drinking water from the tap/independantly from what's in the food?

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 02:09 AM
Sorry to be so OCD about this - yes she needs more than she was getting, but I fear I've gone overboard. i.e. half of what I'm adding would be moe than she was getting and adequate to re-hydrate and what I'm actually giving is too much.

8-10 oz???????????

She never drinks from any other source since I started adding water to her wet food.

There is no money to put aside. I procrastinated about pet insurance and I am devastated about that now.

Just feeding them premium food and the regular vet visits and the flea/heartworm/etc. coverage is breaking me. I have concrete where floors should be because every time I'm going to get new ones the dog has an ear infection or the cat needs a dental.And she has to have the geriatric blood panel every year and be groomed (Persian).

The dog may have kidney issued too. The bloodwork came back normal but her urine was too dilute. I still think it's from forcing water when she had a UTI but the next urine test will tell us more about her.

growler~GateKeeper
July 1st, 2009, 03:50 AM
When calculating the amount of water a cat is drinking you don't actually count the moisture level in the food.

So if you are adding 4-6 oz of water per day & the recommended amount of water consumption for her weight is 5.14-6.56oz per day she's getting a good amount.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 01:13 PM
When calculating the amount of water a cat is drinking you don't actually count the moisture level in the food.

So if you are adding 4-6 oz of water per day & the recommended amount of water consumption for her weight is 5.14-6.56oz per day she's getting a good amount.

OK. I filled up 6 oz last night to start with today. I'll try 2 oz per feeding. TY again!

I really wish I had known that before. All I got from here was switch to wet food. I had the impression the point was to get close to all of her water consumption from that. 'Cats evolved in the desert and got their moisture from prey'.

I'm not complaining, I'm just upset that something so easy could have prevented this. :yell:

She seemed to drink a lot. Would be at that tap for a long time a few times a day.:shrug:

growler~GateKeeper
July 1st, 2009, 02:29 PM
OK. I filled up 6 oz last night to start with today. I'll try 2 oz per feeding. TY again!

I really wish I had known that before. All I got from here was switch to wet food. I had the impression the point was to get close to all of her water consumption from that. 'Cats evolved in the desert and got their moisture from prey'.

I'm not complaining, I'm just upset that something so easy could have prevented this. :yell:

She seemed to drink a lot. Would be at that tap for a long time a few times a day.:shrug:

It is true that they do get most of their water from the canned food as they would from prey, however a cat normally drinks after it eats therefore they still get additional water that way.

Switching to canned & not adding extra water is likely not the cause. Age & natural slowing down of bodily functions has probably played a big part in this. A lifetime of dryfood that has a max moisture level of 10% also doesn't help. Many dryfood fed cats are chronically dehydrated even though they seem to drink alot of water.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 04:03 PM
how bad is tuna? A bit of that in a bowl of water is a sure way for her to drink.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 04:06 PM
For some reason the dog doesn't like to drink and tuna is how I trick her. So I gave the cat like 1/10or 1/20 of a can in 4 oz of water because she is not interested in her 'canned food soup' today.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 04:07 PM
They both always pass the skin test. Yet another mystery.

growler~GateKeeper
July 1st, 2009, 04:09 PM
If you mean using the meat then definately no tuna. That's the one food guarenteed to make them stop eating all other foods. It is very addicting to cats and if they eat exclusively tuna it creates an imbalance of vit e in their bodies.

If you are using a small amount of the low or no sodium tuna juice in the water that's fine just watch for any signs that point to her not eating as much as before.

Mia101
July 1st, 2009, 04:38 PM
For the dog drinking problem (a thread I need to start) I read to use a bullion cube for flavor.

I was thinking to put a tuna chunk (low sodium) in the dog's water for flavor, and then make tuna flavored water for the cat.

She has never been permitted much tuna because of the mercury. Maybe once a week 1/4 of a can as a treat.

Is tuna anti-kidney?

She is good about eating her regular food after tuna, but I will certainly keep that in mind when using it to encourage drinking.

Mia101
July 10th, 2009, 02:46 PM
She's not eating enough. It takes her two days to eat a 5.5 oz can.

She used to eat her dry when she got tired of her canned, but I'm trying not to give her much.

How bad is Sheba? It's not a complete diet anyway, but as an add-on? It is the only wet food in existence she will eat all of the 2.5 oz in one sitting.

Also I remember she really like blue buffalo, but I chose Wellness even before the kidney issue based on better ingredients. I think it was the carb content I didn't like in BB.

But maybe she needs a bit more carbs. She's lost a pound ever since I switched her food. She does not actually have CRF, so that is not the reason for the weight loss.

growler~GateKeeper
July 11th, 2009, 12:06 AM
Sheba cat food :yuck: their website won't even state the full ingredients in the food :rolleyes: - I'd find something else quick

Wellness, Nature's Variety, Evo, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merricks, California Naturals, Innova are all much better choices.

Mia101
July 11th, 2009, 03:58 AM
Sheba has awesome ingredients, it's just not a nutritionally balanced food so unsuitable for the main meals. I just didn't know about phosphorous content.

I need her to eat or she is going to waste away.

I have tried so many brands. W/o dry added in her diet, she simply won't eat enough of canned unless it is bad for her like fancy feast and the like.

*crying*

Mia101
July 11th, 2009, 04:02 AM
Does anyone know if 'Wellness complete health' dry is OK or good on phosphorous? You said 'Core' is not. Weird I was talked into that one here, but that is beside the point now.

I guess Iams is not - she really likes that and Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul. (dry for both).

If I have to use dry to have her eat enough, I think she is getting enough water with it added to her canned and the tuna-flavored water I put out.

Thanks so much for all the help! I need as many years with this precious cat as possible.

Mia101
July 11th, 2009, 04:07 AM
Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.

Maybe the beef FF will help her to eat more. Only a bit on the Core? How high above desired is it?

I don't even know if she loved that. Before the kidney issue I thought it was good for her and mixed with the 'complete health'.

sugarcatmom
July 11th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Only a bit on the Core? How high above desired is it?


Core has 338mg of phosphorus per 100 calories. If a cat did have kidney issues, it would be preferable to keep the phosphorus below about 200-240mg (which roughly equals 1% dry matter). It's not a crucial issue if CRF isn't present, although I still think it's a good idea not to feed foods outrageously high in phosphorus even to a healthy cat (by outrageous, I'm thinking above 400mg/100cal).

If the Core gets her to eat more, it might be worth adding a small amount to her diet. Have you tried pulverizing it and dusting the canned with it? How much does she weigh (forgive me if you've mentioned it before)? Does offering her a different flavour of canned for each meal keep her more interested?

Mia101
July 11th, 2009, 03:40 PM
I don't have any of the CORE left. She didn't really love it. I was the one wanting her to eat it. I think the phosphorous issue was raised at that time, so I mixed it with Wellness Complete Health.

I've tried rotating, thank you for the suggestion. She just doesn't like to eat all canned all the time, it seems. I think I need to find a dry that is good on phosphorous and keep adding water to her canned for hydration.

Right now her dry is a hodge-podge of Felidae, Chicken Soup, and Iams. (long story).

She weighs just over 6 pounds which is down from her usual 7.

growler~GateKeeper
July 11th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Does anyone know if 'Wellness complete health' dry is OK or good on phosphorous?

As I mentioned earlier:

Wellness Complete Health Chicken and Rice Dry runs at 1.12 dry matter phos and the Wellness Complete Health Salmon and Turkey Dry runs at 1.01 dry matter phos.

Canned is by far better but if you must feed some not all dry either one is okay, the Salmon has better dm phos numbers but you want to be aware of the addictive fish aspect. Some cats once they start on fish will only eat fish & it becomes darn near impossible to get them to eat anything else - that is one other reason to limit the fish intake.

Wellness Complete Health Salmon & Turkey Dry has a slightly better phos level than Wellness Complete Health Chicken & Rice Dry both are good phos levels, if you can keep some canned food and not feed exclusively dry even better.

With the secondary protein Turkey in the Salmon & Turkey dry it will counteract much of the negatives of feeding fish to cats with kidney issues or potential issues.

Mia101
July 12th, 2009, 02:22 AM
She doesn't like Salmon, so that won't be an issue.

So far, it looks like I can rotate the wellness canned (certain varieties approved) with Fancy Feast beef, and dry Wellness chicken and rice.

Is the chicken and herring wellness canned really bad? She will eat more of that than the others.

I need her to maintain her weight too........this is hard.

I guess the Felidae/chicken soup/Iams dry mixture is all bad?

sugarcatmom
July 12th, 2009, 11:01 AM
Is the chicken and herring wellness canned really bad? She will eat more of that than the others.


Wellness chicken & herring isn't soooo bad. Phosphorus is 303mg/100cal, not the best but nowhere near the worst. Again, if your can't hasn't officially been diagnosed with renal insufficiency, it's fine to feed it, especially if it gets her eating.

This might seem weird, but have you tried feeding the 3oz cans instead of the 5.5oz ones? I've heard of a number of cats (mine included) that for some reason prefer the food in the smaller cans. No idea why, except that the "leftover factor" might have something to do with it (many cats will like a food fresh out of the can, but not after it's been refrigerated - even if you warm it up first).

If her ideal weight is 7 lbs, and the rough guidelines for feline caloric intake are 20-30 calories per lb per day, then you should aim for her to eat somewhere between 140-210 cal/day. Most of the Wellness flavours are around 35-40 cal/oz (with chicken being the highest).

Mia101
July 13th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Even the little ones. She will eat half sometimes and have nothing to do with the rest. it's been hard ever since I switched her to canned. I've tried every trick in the book.

Where can I find out the phosphorous levels of Iams, Chicken Soup, and Felidae?

That is the mixture of dry in the house right now. The place I get Wellness isn't sticking the dry anymore.

If I don't let her have dry she just flat doesn't get enough to eat :shrug:

Also, how bad are the other varieties of fancy feast? It seems like when she was getting a different flavor every day she ate more.

Maybe like you said get small cans of wellness and enough others so that she doesn't get sick of any of them.

I'm trying to walk some kind of line over here....hydrating her and not hurting her kidneys but also keeping her weight up.

growler~GateKeeper
July 14th, 2009, 01:21 AM
You can see some of the Fancy Feast varieties listed here: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/CanFoodNew.html The foods with less than 200 or upto 240 listed under the Phosph (mg) column are a good phos level ~ doesn't necessarily mean all the ingredients in the food are the best though.

The Felidae website has all of their canned formulas at the same dry matter phos level of 0.9% which is very good - however I would prefer to see the guarenteed analysis off the can to be sure it is actually the same, since every variety usually has different levels, especially since the site above has differing levels for the 2 Felidae varieties listed.

As for Iams & Chicken Soup they don't have phos listed on the web either on their own site or a couple others I checked :shrug: You would need to give me from the guarenteed analysis on the can 1) the moisture content 2) the phosphorus content then I can calculate the dry matter phosphorus which is one of the only ways to compare the phos in different varieties/brands of food.

Mia101
July 14th, 2009, 03:06 AM
TY. The Iams, Felidae, and Chicken Soup are dry. That's what she has for dry right now.

I know fancy feast is not the best ingredients, but I can't get her to eat enough of a low-phosphorous canned food with the best ingredients.

I think the best I can hope for is to get her to eat enough canned period w/o too much phosphorous.

Or add water to her canned to make up for the amount of dry she eats and make sure it's all low-phosphorous.

growler~GateKeeper
July 14th, 2009, 10:41 PM
Okay I thought you had those 3 as canned foods, here is the same style list for dryfood http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html, again anything upto 240mg phos/100kcal in the phos column is okay. Unfortunately they don't have any of the Iams phos values listed, the Chicken Soup Adult has acceptable phos levels and the Felidae isn't listed & their site doesn't list the phos for the dryfood.

If you have the bags, look on the side or the back for the Moisture % and the Phosphorus %, then I can let you know where they are in terms of dry matter phos compared to other foods.

As for the FF canned the ones listed on the site given in the previous post are all over 240mg phos/100kcal - if you have a flavour not listed there and still have the cans let me know the moisture % and the phosphorus % & I can convert it for you. If she will eat some of the other foods listed there are a number of them under 240.

Mia101
July 15th, 2009, 12:06 AM
TY. The Felidae bag doesn't tell the phosphorous content. I think right now so she doesn't lose weight I will let her eat whatever she will eat.

I will look at your sites and stock up on low-phosphorous foods and see what I can do to get her to eat them!

I think this all-canned thing is not going to work, which bothers me but I'm more worried about her dropping weight.

IDK, this is very hard. I've been up for 7 hours and all she's eaten is less than a handful of dry and 1/8 of a 5.5 oz can. This can't continue. Overnight she ate like 1/16th of her canned that had water in it to keep it moist.

She's not even going for the canned food soup like she was at first :shrug:

I'm about to give her a dome of Sheba because she will eat that until it's gone.

I hope to discover the phosphorous content of that food. It will be a blessing if it's low.

Mia101
July 15th, 2009, 12:10 AM
Okay I thought you had those 3 as canned foods, here is the same style list for dryfood http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html, again anything upto 240mg phos/100kcal in the phos column is okay. Unfortunately they don't have any of the Iams phos values listed, the Chicken Soup Adult has acceptable phos levels and the Felidae isn't listed & their site doesn't list the phos for the dryfood.

If you have the bags, look on the side or the back for the Moisture % and the Phosphorus %, then I can let you know where they are in terms of dry matter phos compared to other foods.

As for the FF canned the ones listed on the site given in the previous post are all over 240mg phos/100kcal - if you have a flavour not listed there and still have the cans let me know the moisture % and the phosphorus % & I can convert it for you. If she will eat some of the other foods listed there are a number of them under 240.

Good news on the Chicken Soup. That's a decent dry that she will eat!

growler~GateKeeper
July 15th, 2009, 12:16 AM
You can always try emailing Sheba and ask for a guarenteed analysis for the flavours that she will eat, specifically mention you are interested to know what the phosphorus content is, they should email you back with that info.

Mia101
July 15th, 2009, 01:55 AM
TYSM!

She is so funny. I stirred a little sheba into her wellness. That worked for one feeding (hardly anything).

2 hours later - she wants nothing to do with it, she wants dry. So I stirred THAT into her little crock-pot. She's eating again......

Maybe if I am stocked up on different varieties of low-phosphorous wet and dry, keep adding water to everything....maybe she can be alright for longer. I sure hope so!

Mia101
July 15th, 2009, 01:58 AM
One more question: when I first was convinced to switch her to canned, I'd let her have dry snacks but I took dry away overnight so she'd be hungry for her canned in the AM.

If she is not eating enough, though, I'm thinking I should leave it out again, would you agree?

growler~GateKeeper
July 15th, 2009, 02:05 AM
I would say at this point, since she's lost weight & refusing to eat, do what you have to in order to get her to eat. Just don't leave dryfood that has canned or water mixed in it out for more than 20 mins or so - the dryfood may start going moldy. Canned food can be left out until it's dry & crunchy though - most cats just won't eat it then :laughing:.

Mia101
July 15th, 2009, 04:02 AM
Glad you said so - I was about to go to bed with the sheba/wellness/dry food/water mixture out!

I'll put out new wellness in water and separate dry so she has a choice to eat while I sleep.

Thanks!

Mia101
July 16th, 2009, 11:19 PM
Here's a site that tells about Iams and Felidae: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dryfood.htm

1.8% and 1.010.

I am guessing that is bad.

*dumping out cat food*

growler~GateKeeper
July 16th, 2009, 11:29 PM
That particular chart is from 2003 - the formulas may have changed since then. It is best when in doubt to contact the company for the most recent numbers.

1.8% is too high, but 1.01% is fine if that value is still current.

Mia101
July 17th, 2009, 04:29 AM
That particular chart is from 2003 - the formulas may have changed since then. It is best when in doubt to contact the company for the most recent numbers.

1.8% is too high, but 1.01% is fine if that value is still current.

And you knew that was dry, right? The felidae has more phosphorous, so I think her dry mix is good. It's mostly Iams and Chicken Soup. I will toss the rest of the felidae and keep the dry mix of lower-phosphorous foods.

I'm buying Wellness (dry) Salmon and turkey this week. While I have enough Iams to let her adjust.

I'll just use little bits of Sheba to mix in and tempt to eat the Wellness canned.

growler~GateKeeper
July 17th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Yes I know that was the dry chart - but it's still outdated :D

Ask your local shelters if they will accept an open bag of dry food instead of tossing it. In my area the SPCA will take any food donations even if the dry food has been opened.

Mia101
July 24th, 2009, 11:13 PM
I was just making sure because before I had been confusing about wet vs dry.

OK, I feel like I am at square one.

When I started this quest a couple of years ago, to switch her to premium food and more canned than dry,.....apparently she doesn't eat enough unless I give her something that is not ideal like Iams or Blue Buffalo or Chicken Soup.

I noticed she is eating more since I put more Iams back in her dry mix.

I still put the Wellness canned out, but she's eating I'd guess 1/2 and 1/2.

One day she won't eat the Wellness unless I mix in some Sheba and the next I find she's eaten the wellness and avoided the sheba part, lol.

I don't just want to throw my hands up in the air because I really want to return her levels to normal or at least slow the progression as much as possible.

Anyway, I feel I have to let her have her dry that she will eat since she already lost a pound.

I don't know what to do other than keeping canned with extra water in it available at all times.

Taking away her dry to get her to eat more canned......doing that may have cost her that pound.

If Iams current formula doesn't have too much phosphorous.....do you think this will be OK or do I need to keep trying for a better dry or a tastier canned?

I think she ate the Wellness dry in good amounts. IDK because she was healthy then so I wasn't measuring.

growler~GateKeeper
July 24th, 2009, 11:48 PM
What I would do is try to get a sample size or buy the smallest size bag of Wellness, see how she likes that, how much she eats. While you're seeing how she likes the Wellness, if Iams is what you know she will eat check the bag to see if the phos is listed on it or email the company and ask for the guarenteed analysis for the flavour you want in the dry food & be sure to mention that you are particularily interested in the phosphorus level.

If she won't eat the Wellness or enough of it, then after checking on the phos count pick up a small bag of Iams & see how she does eating that before buying a bigger bag.

Mia101
July 24th, 2009, 11:58 PM
Also, how often do I have her checked? It's scary to wait a whole year when I might find her in bad shape, but I read it's very stressful to do it too often.

growler~GateKeeper
July 25th, 2009, 12:39 AM
For an 18 year old cat she should be checked every 6 months if there are no issues and generally speaking every 3 months if there is a known issue.

When did your vet say he wanted to see her again?

The stress level really depends on the individual cat, for example if the cat is super stressed just going in the carrier etc. My cat loves her Homeopath vet & not stressed at all there, she's actually gone exploring the back rooms of the clinic when the exam room door was opened from the back :D.

Mia101
July 25th, 2009, 12:39 AM
What I would do is try to get a sample size or buy the smallest size bag of Wellness, see how she likes that, how much she eats. While you're seeing how she likes the Wellness, if Iams is what you know she will eat check the bag to see if the phos is listed on it or email the company and ask for the guarenteed analysis for the flavour you want in the dry food & be sure to mention that you are particularily interested in the phosphorus level.

If she won't eat the Wellness or enough of it, then after checking on the phos count pick up a small bag of Iams & see how she does eating that before buying a bigger bag.


I misunderstood the last part of this. I know she will eat Iams. It seems to be her favorite. She might also like chicken soup as well. I can't remember as I didn't like their ingredients as much as wellness. I might get some samples of chicken soup as well. At least it is higher quality than Iams.

growler~GateKeeper
July 25th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Find the smallest bag available & if she'll eat the Wellness then great :thumbs up

Find the smallest bag available & if she'll eat the Chicken Soup then great :thumbs up

If she'll only eat the Iams and you've checked to make sure the phos is okay then give her that :shrug:

You could also try mixing Wellness or Chicken Soup dry in with Iams & see if that will fool her into eating some of the good stuff too.

I mention picking up a small bag of Iams because cats are notoriously picky and a food they love one week they might not like the next week - so if you get the small bag first you can see if she still likes it before buying more.

Mia101
July 25th, 2009, 01:13 AM
For an 18 year old cat she should be checked every 6 months if there are no issues and generally speaking every 3 months if there is a known issue.

When did your vet say he wanted to see her again?

The stress level really depends on the individual cat, for example if the cat is super stressed just going in the carrier etc. My cat loves her Homeopath vet & not stressed at all there, she's actually gone exploring the back rooms of the clinic when the exam room door was opened from the back :D.

I don't think mine is overly stressed by the carrier, car, or vet. The vet is very loving to her and makes her comfortable.

What I read is that the blood test is stressful.

The vet was not my normal one - my mother took her for a while when I was dealing with a sick dog. My mother got concerned over something and took her to her vet, who seems kinda weird after research.

No urine test or anything. He just said that the elevated levels were of concern, could be a precursor to K/D, and to start her on a renal diet to be safe.

Nothing about extra tests or anything.:shrug:

Mia101
July 25th, 2009, 01:18 AM
Find the smallest bag available & if she'll eat the Wellness then great :thumbs up

Find the smallest bag available & if she'll eat the Chicken Soup then great :thumbs up

If she'll only eat the Iams and you've checked to make sure the phos is okay then give her that :shrug:

You could also try mixing Wellness or Chicken Soup dry in with Iams & see if that will fool her into eating some of the good stuff too.

I mention picking up a small bag of Iams because cats are notoriously picky and a food they love one week they might not like the next week - so if you get the small bag first you can see if she still likes it before buying more.

Got it. OK, the Iams seems to be a staple. Other foods come and go in her permissible category but that one stays. It's mixed right now with chicken soup. And Felidae, but I pick out the Felidae b/c of the phos. content.

I sent an email to Iams.

growler~GateKeeper
July 25th, 2009, 01:26 AM
What I read is that the blood test is stressful.

The vet was not my normal one

Nothing about extra tests or anything.:shrug:

Again depends on the cat, the person taking blood & the person restraining the cat while the blood is drawn. If the cat is struggling, or the people in the room are nervous/anxious then the cat will react to that & it will become more stressed.

If the cat is having blood taken every week then yes that's hard on the body system, but once every 3-4 months is not that hard on the system.

Maybe call your vets' office & ask the receptionist if your reg vet can have a quick look at the results & let you know when they want to see her again.

Mia101
July 28th, 2009, 05:46 AM
I just remembered something. the vet had her on I/D for digestive ease. It's lower in protein than most foods. I wonder if that's why she lost weight?

Anyway I'm out of variety to tempt her with this AM, and the phosphorous (canned food) is .10 %.

Is that OK?

I have not learned yet the numbers.

growler~GateKeeper
July 28th, 2009, 10:08 PM
0.10% is that what is listed on the can? What is the moisture content listed on the can?

Mia101
July 28th, 2009, 11:22 PM
0.10% is that what is listed on the can? What is the moisture content listed on the can?

yes, and 80% moisture. 7.5% protein. 4% fat.

Since it's a canned food she will eat in a rotation, I have to check it out.

I don't know what is up with Hills and pork liver but to me that is weird. Whether it's for digestion or kidney, cat or dog, pork liver is the main ingredient.

Water, pork liver, pork by-products, chicken, wheat flour, chicken fat...

Mia101
July 28th, 2009, 11:58 PM
I found out I've been making her older than she is - her birthday is this month, 1992. So she just turned 17.

growler~GateKeeper
July 29th, 2009, 12:30 AM
The dry matter phos is 0.5 which is a great number.

I think they use pork because it is significantly high in fat than other proteins which usually makes the food smell/taste more appealing, but pork is not very easy for cats to digest which is why no other food companies use pork as a main ingredient.

Mia101
July 29th, 2009, 02:16 AM
The dry matter phos is 0.5 which is a great number.

I think they use pork because it is significantly high in fat than other proteins which usually makes the food smell/taste more appealing, but pork is not very easy for cats to digest which is why no other food companies use pork as a main ingredient.

That's why I wonder why it is in the formula that is for digestion. If my stomach is upset pork is the last thing I'm going to eat. But maybe there is something different about the liver or the other ingredients overwhelm it or something.

Well, good to know at least it's OK for her to eat, since she likes it.

Mia101
July 30th, 2009, 03:36 AM
Iams is .88% on the dry forumla she likes. That is a relief. I have a mixture going of 1/4 Wellness dry and 3/4 Iams dry.

She eats about 1/4 or 1/3 canned a day - with lots of 'gravy' (I add water to what's left of the food every time she eats)

I don't like the Iams and I don't like so much dry, but for now it is progress.

growler~GateKeeper
July 30th, 2009, 11:17 PM
Is the 0.88% as fed listed on the bag or is that dry matter basis?

Mia101
July 31st, 2009, 07:33 AM
Is the 0.88% as fed listed on the bag or is that dry matter basis?

I thought when it is dry food it is the % given?

The .88% was quoted by Iams in an email.

growler~GateKeeper
August 1st, 2009, 01:10 AM
Dry food does still have a small amount of moisture in it, and in order to properly compare different foods the food either canned or dry needs to be converted to dry matter basis so you get the actual amounts of the ingredients without the variety of water content.

Mia101
August 1st, 2009, 02:41 AM
Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast").





Where did you find the phosphorous content of all the fancy feast varieties?

The one she likes best (in beef) is the one that is like a pate. It just says 'tender beef feast' not grilled or sliced or morsels or anything. I can even mix a little with wellness canned to entice her to eat more of that.

Mia101
August 13th, 2009, 04:27 PM
Where did you find the phosphorous content of all the fancy feast varieties?

The one she likes best (in beef) is the one that is like a pate. It just says 'tender beef feast' not grilled or sliced or morsels or anything. I can even mix a little with wellness canned to entice her to eat more of that.

bump
:):):)

sugarcatmom
August 13th, 2009, 04:39 PM
Where did you find the phosphorous content of all the fancy feast varieties?

The one she likes best (in beef) is the one that is like a pate. It just says 'tender beef feast' not grilled or sliced or morsels or anything. I can even mix a little with wellness canned to entice her to eat more of that.

Oops, sorry for not seeing this before.

This chart here (http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/CanFoodOld.html) has some older values for Fancy Feast (pre 2005). They may or may not still be valid because Purina is no longer willing to divulge their info on these flavours.:rolleyes:

The Tender Beef Feast is a little high at 287mg/100kcal, but if you're mixing it with something better and it gets her eating it, then I wouldn't sweat it.

Mia101
August 13th, 2009, 04:56 PM
TY. I feel like I should be doing more. But I don't know what!